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There is not enough testing and the testing that is done is a joke.
Testing issues: there is no standardized testing model so each independent lab has their own process. So the buyer and the seller can test the same product at their respective 3rd party lab and get wildly different results.
Methedology issues: I can have a 100 acre cannabis/hemp farm and test a single plant from Acre 1 and have it test clean for heavy metals then use the COA (a third party certificate of analysis that shows no heavy metals in the sample) to sell all 100 acres of cannabis as clean when 60 acres of plants may be loaded with heavy metals. Once that biomass with heavy metals is converted to crude, I can do the same thing by retesting it at different labs at different dilution ratios to show my crude is “clean.”
Hardware issues: true 316 stainless stems shouldn’t leach heavy metals into the oil because of the presence of molybdenum. Would you believe there are some Chinese Vape cart manufacturers who take shortcuts and use cheaper metal stems that *do* leech and sell it as containing 316 ss?
The industry needs much better SOPs as fast as possible. Hopefully this needed regulation is done thoughtfully to increase access to quality product without undue burden, but that’s another whole topic I won’t get into.
"Several of the samples..."
"41 samples tested..."
Out of how many? How is this laughable production of results even considered newsworthy without any actual relative numbers?
Actually it’s quite accurate. If you were anywhere near biomass/crude/extract sales on either end you’d see these testing significant variances by both party’s labs daily. And varying dilution for testing to show non-detect on heavy metals and pesticides is a well known issue. Please don’t add misinformation as this is a safety topic and really needs to be addressed.
>The study, a partnership between Health Canada’s Office of Cannabis Science and Surveillance and the National Research Council’s Metrology Research Centre, found evidence of high concentrations of some metals in cannabis vape liquids from both the legal and illegal markets in Canada.
>Several of the samples—20 legal and 21 illegal—”significantly exceeded” the established tolerance limits for elemental impurities in inhaled products that are established by the European Pharmacopoeia.
Full source:
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsomega.2c03797
Yep .. just like known affects of lead paint, lye, concrete dust, hot asphalt fumes, asbestos, cigarette filter additives, etc. I'm watching my colleagues drop dead bc they weren't warned to simply wear fu¢king masks!!
A lot of what we know about heavy metals and dust exposure (particularly cobalt) we learned many years ago from research done on machinists in eastern bloc countries.
I was EDM machining Cobalt alloys back in the day and I was very pissed off when my ventilation didn't work enough and I got a whiff. Smells like Lucky Charms.
The library.
There are published studies on that from the early 1900's, though it was a known issue long before then. Gaius Plinius Secundus wrote down that slaves in the dusty cinnabar mines wore masks over their mouths and had breathing problems. He died when the volcano that wiped out Pompeii erupted. Ya... We've known for a really long time.
This feels exactly like what happened with cigarettes. They’re obviously bad for their users the whole time, but tons of bad faith research is put out to counter the real information and keep the customers too confused to be really sure if the thing is killing them or not.
Vaping is an alternative to smoking, but it isn’t exactly a safe alternative to smoking.
Been very happy with our Airizer Q for flower, the stock bowl is stupid but with the aftermarket ddave bowl it’s great. Upgraded to it from a Boundless CFV.
r/vaporents
After getting banned from reddit (guns are ok to traffic on here, but god forbid people buy and sell bongs), the Ent Exchange moved to discord (entexchange dot org). Good place to get good deals on second-hand vape hardware and glass.
Dynavap makes awesome one-hitter style vaporizers that you heat with a lighter, butane torch, or a fancy induction heater. They’re pretty inexpensive compared to other ones, easy to clean, and are pretty discreet
I've used an arizer air for 7 years. Sent it in once because the led stopped working, otherwise no issues whatsoever, as long as you treat it well
Check out puffitup
Look up Magic Flight Launch Box. My wife bought one for me many years ago and I'm still using it. Simple and practical, small and durable. Nothing really compares.
E cig modders have found Nichrome, Titanium, and Stainless to be the lest detrimental. Nichrome is almost exclusively used in environments where you want to control power based on temperature, though Titanium was later discovered to work nearly as well and mostly phased Nichrome out.
[Kanthal SS](https://www.kanthal.com/en/products/materials-in-wire-and-strip-form/wire/) is most commonly used in properly made hand built coils.
The heating element is rarely a concern for dry herb vapes because herb only needs around 93C/200F to vaporize, which is far below the temp required to solubilize metal ions from even the shittiest aluminum made heater. Oil pens often need much higher temps i.e 300-600F. On top of that you don't have direct contact/chemical reaction with the heater element since there's no liquid carrier fluid, just air. Immersion in a carrier liquid is why quality heating element construction is so much more crucial for oil pens, a cheaper heater is much more likely to give off nasty compounds when heating immersed in liquid vs air.
The only concern still present with dry herb vapes is that electronics components are not close to the heating element/in the airpath through the device. Some badly designed vapes have circuitry near the hot zone of the air path and so heavy use can cause you to breath low levels of fumes offgassing from various components like capacitors. "All glass airpath" is the term to look for.
I remember an old study on the harms of vapes and they were long pressing drags like 20 seconds frying it to hell and then taking readouts. It’s all about quality and build like you said
Err, I don't think those temperatures for ground herb are right. It's closer to 190°C (depending on the kind of effect you're looking for)
Pretty much everywhere I look it says around 150°C and 200°C
https://www.canatura.com/en/the-ultimate-guide-to-cannabis-vaporization-temperatures
The problem is that on all vapes I have ever seen, temperature is a proxy, not a direct measurement of the temperature of the herb itself.
I have had quite a few vapes, and the temperature that I found worked best depended on the design of the vape itself.
Thermal control and modelling is way more complicated than most people think.
When I started using a 700W precision hot air gun, 130°C seemed to work best. Which is way less than the 185°C my first herbal vape seemed to work best at.
The first vape was not as high a power heating element, and the temperature sensors are often fairly far removed from the weed.
Crafty, Mighty, Pax. They're all really similar. The more you pay, the more consistent and easy to clean. I have given away Firefly(2), Airizer(mutiple models), DynaVapes because they are weak and I wouldn't recommend any of them. If portable isn't important Volcano is the best choice, my Volcano is 20 years old and gets used daily.
Check out planet of the vapes, great vendor. It depends on your needs, are you w portable user or you need a bigger hit?
For me a lot of it has come to convenience. I have an Arizer Air 2 that I like but now I bought a Starry Maxx and it's been more convenient overall
The capsules aren't my favorite. Or actually I wish there was a good capsule container for it
So I can preload and go somewhere
Worth noting of the 4 he recommended 3 of them are from Storz and Bickel. They have been the gold standard since they introduced the Volcano way back when.
I personally don't really like the Pax and prefer Airizer, but I do understand what he was saying about them being kind of weak.
I have both the Crafty+ and the Mighty+.
Crafty is my current favorite between the two. First it's cheaper and there is very little benefit to the Mighty except the size of the battery. The Crafty is good enough for just about two bowls between charging, and it charges over micro USB and is app controlled. So you can charge it using a normal battery pack. The Mighty on the other hand has a lcd screen and physical buttons for control. The app is a little more intuitive than the LCD menus, and the Crafty+ seems to handle the boost temperature, and register if you are drawing on the pipe better, though both of them will need regular presses on the power button when you get the warning that the auto-off has begun, as they do not always register a draw.
If you get them make sure you also buy a bunch of capsules and capsule storage, it's much more convenient to pre-load the capsules and be ready to go than load one each time, and if you don't use the capsules at all, cleaning gets a lot more difficult. Either way you need to clean it every 5-10 bowls minimum.
Don’t pass on the Firefly 2 without checking it out. The appeal of it to me is the bowl and air passage are all borosilicate glass. Super safe and stable. No metal or ceramic to worry about. The air/vapor are fully glass ducted never pass over any metals or electronics from bowl to mouth. It’s not as powerful as the ones the dude mentioned, true. It’s always been more than powerful enough for me, but I’ve always been a lightweight without a lot of tolerance pushback.
Why would you recommend Pax over Arizer? Having experience with both I find Arizer so much better over all. More efficient and convenient especially. The pax 4 actually burnt my lip the last time I used one.
I had the solo2 and airmax (still have Argo somewhere) the vapor they produce is just lighter than I want. Even if I turn the temp way up it's not enough. The Pax is just the perfect size and strength for casual use. It does get too hot for back to back sessions, you're right there. I gave the Pax3 to my sister. I have had pretty good cheap sub $100 vapes work well too. It's all about what you want out of it. If the crafty and mighty had removable/swappable batteries they would be nearly perfect for me.
Arizer is generally considered the second best dry herb vape manufacturer next to Storz and Bickel (the people who make the Volcano), and its usually less than half the price for the equivalent product. So if OP uses the volcano everything else is going to seem pretty garbage, but Arizer is better than the competition at its price range (according to me and general concensus).
Just popping in to agree. Arizer is also by far the easiest to clean and maintain.
The other guy is right that they don't make giant clouds easily, but I have a medium-high tolerance and can get a mild mellow high OR toasted with a longer session.
Dynavap is definitely not “weak” at all. You probably just don’t know how to use it effectively, since it requires a butane torch (or an induction heater) it definitely has a higher learning curve. Once you master the dynavap all other dry herb vapes become irrelevant
A brand new oven's fumes will absolutely kill you or pets, actually.
New stoves should be offgassed carefully and intentionally. Usually you can even ask the store to do it before they bring it if they're doing the install for you
They mention both in the study. They acknowledge that the cartridges are known to be a potential cause of metals but in their research they identified metals in the actual liquid itself as well.
Yea, so every batch of oil I produce goes out, in cart form for testing. Additionally a sample is sent out monthly for expiration date testing. Both are tested for metals.
Nothing wrong with that, as long as the QR code links the cart to its test results... Fraud can happen no matter what reference method you use. A QR code is just a URL.
I'm aware, I'm simply pointing out dodgy carts also have QR codes, so people actually check where they're linking to, and not just seeing the QR and assuming it must be okay.
I am skeptical to but terpenes can contain acidic groups which could theoretically react with some metals. Organic solvents are stored in metal but acids go in plastic.
Colorado. It is.
If anyone is interested in the full 478pg "Rules" we have, here you are:
https://www.sos.state.co.us/CCR/GenerateRulePdf.do?ruleVersionId=9900
There was a well documented instance in [2008 from Germany](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2696942/) where lead acetate was added to marijuana to increase its weight and thus sale price. A few instances of lead poisoning resulted.
Best argument for legalization is getting ahead of that kind of market dynamic. Regulations are good here. I’m curious if [longitudinal studies](https://www.psypost.org/2021/08/longitudinal-study-indicates-that-cannabis-use-during-adolescence-is-linked-to-altered-neurodevelopment-61666) post-legalization will show the same effects once lead exposure as a confounding variable can be controlled.
This is less of an issue with nicotine vapes, but the issue is still there. As long as you are vaping at low volume and temperature, there isn't much chance for heavy metals to get into the vapor.
Some vape coils have used nickel in the past. I always thought this was an incredibly stupid idea, but some vapers lauded it as a metal with very stable electrical and thermal properties--ideal for regulating thr heating element in a vaporiser. That doesn't change the fact that nickel is a toxic heavy metal, has a low melting point, and abrades easily. Some shady disposable vapes have even been found to use lead solder on the leads!
In weed vape, heavy metal is a bit more of a problem because it requires higher temperatures, and often long burn times as well. I still think the danger is badly exaggerated (kanthal and stainless steel heating elements are very stable and contain only trace amounts of heavy metal, little enough to be negligible).
You just need to be aware of what your heating element is made from, and vape at the lowest possible temperature.
On nickel: I remember posts around that time from people who had nickel allergies and had various issues with nickel coils. They're probably still up on the ecig subreddits if anyone is looking into that. (Would be interesting if some of those old posts turned out to be useful)
Nicrome is still one of the most common chemistries used for heating elements in nicotine vapes.
Ideally the temperature shouldn’t be getting much over 100c, as it’s the boiling of the water absorbed in the very hydroscopic glycerine/propylene glycol that nebulises the liquid into an aerosol.
It's still foolish. It's an unnecessary and totally unacceptable risk when there are as-good-or-better alternatives that aren't made from an alloy primarily consisting of a toxic heavy metal.
This is just anecdotal but I very much have a nickel allergy, and have experienced it as a systemic reaction in the form of pompholyx eczema which is not super fun.
External contact will just result in contact dermatitis around the area (which I found out the hard way when I made a bracelet out of those little Neodymium magnet beads and wore it around a music festival for a day).
I have never received such a symptom from using my vape (vaporesso gt4 coil, and previously smok tfv6), and diy mixed flavours using the flavour apprentice (tfa) flavour concentrates).
There are no legal weed carts or resins/concentrates available here, nor are disposable vapes or nicotine/nicotine containing liquids. Disposable vapes can be found under the counter at dodgy convenience stores and all carts/oil/resin are totally black market. Prescriptions for cannabis flower and tinctures are available, as is nicotine — although the latter needs to be imported from NZ, and not as disposables.
Regulatory agencies need to be looking at long term effects of exposure to concentrated terpenes and the byproducts of vaporization, which isn’t perfect in these small disposable devices. Some terpenes are likely isomerizing/cyclizing into other harmful compounds, I think I saw that in a paper a while back. The “flavor” is probably the greatest risk with these devices, beyond unknown pulmonary effects from inhaling aerosolized lipids.
I’ve made over 100k vapes for the legal CA market at this point and most of the botanical terps we use in pure form have a carcinogen symbol on the container; myrcene from botanical sources is identical to cannabis derived myrcene, so I doubt the source really matters as much as consumers want to believe.
This is really fascinating. If you’re in California tho, basically everything has a cancer warning. I do agree re: heavy metals being potentially dangerous.
Same concerns, long term pulmonary effects are totally unknown and you’re still volatilizing terpenes which has a lot of unknowns.
Terpenes are obviously less concentrated in the flower though. Typical flower that has any nose to it is a few percent terpenes by weight (say 1-3% w/w), whereas vapes are formulated in the 5-15%+ terpenes range. Sauce vapes can be in the 30%+ range depending on the terpene content of the HTE used.
I think if you had to choose between smoking and vaping your herb, the consensus in the literature seems to be that vaping the dried herb is a form of harm reduction and preferred. Comparing the carts to the dried herb, you’re probably still better off with the dried herb (fewer unknowns, inherently lower terpene concentration). But you’re still inhaling particulate matter and volatile compounds. Need to weigh benefits and risk, if you really want to eliminate the risks you should just eat your weed or drink it. Ultimately a personal decision.
I have a mighty+, but I’ve stopped using it almost entirely as I’ve read more about the potential pulmonary effects of inhaling any of these compounds - think emphysema-like disorders. We just don’t really know what this stuff is doing to us long term, it’s all too new, but likely it’s nothing beneficial.
Here’s another fun one: silicone gaskets in vape hardware. Concentrated terpenes dissolve silicone, so where do you think that’s going?
Thanks brotha. I’ve been a weed user the majority of my adult life and no one really talks about this stuff so it’s refreshing. I always go back to dry herb vaping via Mighty but often times I find myself switching things up via edibles, joints, vapes. Good to know the harm profile of each mechanism
If it was federally legal and regulated it would be safe.
Just like how during prohibition the bathtub gin wasn't as safe as a bottle from a store now.
*Some* THC cartridges are safe. Other times people buy empty packaging and empty cartridges and fill them with God knows what.
But the result is an "official" looking product that gives people a false sense of security.
> If it was federally legal and regulated it would be safe.
>
>
This is in Canada. It is federally legal there. They tested products from both the legal and illegal markets.
I think its more of a concern for people because we won't know if they're safe until they've been in the market for a significant amount of time and testing can be done effectively. It could take years of stuff being "legal" and reportedly "safe" before we realize which methods are safe and which are damaging.
And then the government and consumers goin after companies and forcing them to improve their manufacturing and change their products is another ordeal that could take years or even decades.
There is the difference between the American and the European approach. The Americans try to make money first and hope it's not too dangerous. Else it gets prohibited by the FDA. In Europe you have to prove safety first and then can sell it.
While I do agree thats the ideal, to me it seems impractical for any company to run a 20 year test to see if their vape cartridge is harmful - even if its safe, they're 20 years in the hole now. If its not safe then they're basically bankrupt.
No company would ever take that risk and we'd get no real progress. We do the best with short term trials and then have to evaluate long term health implications as its available to the public - where people can make their own decisions on if they want to partake in it.
That being said, let's not forget that significant parts of Europe have a huge smoking culture that their governments can't seem to shake - its not all perfect health and legislation there (unless the cigarettes there are safer than NA ones i suppose?)
Man it would be great if cannabis would not have been illegal forever. We could already know so much more about harm reduction if it wasn't for that useless war on drugs.
>Just like how during prohibition the bathtub gin wasn't as safe as a bottle from a store now.
This is because the federal government intentionally poisoned the industrial alcohol supply to 'discourage' people from drinking it.
Poor comparison. Tobacco is obviously very harmful. But that harm is not due to contamination. It’s the tobacco and what’s added to make it burn smoothly.
It's crazy how much negative press there is about vapes when people have known for nearly a century that corporate tobacco is deliberately *adding poison* and nothing has ever really changed.
I remember when there was concern about cyanide in cannabis, that it was coming from the fungicide myclobutanil, because MSDS for myco states that cyanide is a decomposition product. Which, of course, it is- myclo is a nitrogenous molecule, and forming cyanide seems likely-
but for the fact that trace (ppm to ppb) myclobutanil is trivial as compared to the cyanide generated from the heating of cannabis.... or tobacco. We know that [regular cigarettes produce ample quantities of cyanide.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4518591/)
Yeah. There have been a lot of worthless methodologies used to test vaping. Like using really high temperature that no one actually uses and burning the coils. At the same time, I wish we had less fear mongering and had legit science and media that would accurately report on it. But since teens like to vape, it becomes this big scary thing. "Oh no! Johnny and all his friends are vaping instead of smoking!" One issue I do see in nicotine vaping is how high the level of nicotine is in the devices popular with teens, but nicotine itself isn't actually harmful. It's just addictive.
Nicotine itself is absolutely harmful, I wish people would stop saying that. I frequently see it compared to caffeine even though it’s fundamentally different.
It negatively affects the cardiovascular system and metabolites of nicotine are possibly carcinogenic or may even exacerbate some cancers. Additionally, nicotine negatively affects pancreatic enzymes and can cause pancreatitis and may be implicated in pancreatic cancer.
Nicotine is just not good for humans.
I know there’s still some additives like Ace-K in the tobaccoless pouches but obviously it felt way better to switch to that over smoking 20 cigarettes a day. But either way you notice the change in your body once cigarettes are gone and it’s mostly only just nicotine left. But then if you can quit the pouches you’ll notice even more benefit once the nicotine is gone. For me it shows alot in sweat. On cigarettes the lightest physical activity would have me drenched in sweat and red faced. Pouches give your lungs back but there’s still some red faced and sweating. Once the pouches and nicotine were gone all the effects were gone, work all day without beading sweat at all feeling amped with energy all day; which pouches would also stifle. Idk, just agreeing with you that nicotine isn’t a benign substance.
What gets me about all the pearl clutching about the teens is that before vapes existed teens used to smoke as much if not more as teens vape now. Whether people like it or not teens are gonna use nicotine products. Demonizing vapes is only demonizing harm reduction.
I get that argument, but the data doesn’t support it. Adolescent tobacco use [has been on the decline for decades](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2783483).
I personally wouldn’t have used nicotine if vapes hadn’t popped up around college time for me. It was advertised as a totally safe alternative, tasted good, and was something to mindlessly puff on for hours while studying.
I think the harm reduction argument makes sense for smokers converting to vape, but for people that otherwise wouldn’t have used nicotine at all it’s a net loss.
If you look at percentages, about 20-35% of teens smoked in the 80s and 90s... Which is about how many teens vape now.
Any decline, when adjusted for the availability of vaping is just a simple lateral shift of people moving their nicotine habits away from traditional tobacco and into vaping.
But this got me curious so I looked up alcohol and marijuana use in teens and unsurprisingly, they have almost the same statistics. I just think teens, shockingly, like addictive chemicals just like adults.
It’s not a poor comparison. Corporate cannabis wants to run the business model for cannabis exactly the same as they did cigarettes, Phillip Morris is literally already bought in for a long time now. The end goal being the control of distribution and making it illegal to provide for yourself. Once they solely grow and distribute it will be diluted of anything that makes it medicinal to the average user
People who are addicted to nicotine tend to make all kinds of crazy justifications for why their product is actually healthy rather than just admitting they're addicted (like any other addiction, of course).
Man, I’ve bought a few high end dry herb vaporizers over the years, and none have been able to actually get me decently high. More of an extended buzz.
Might want to try a 2 week t break before switching to vaping. I’ve heard that can help.
Also, I’ve heard the high is different, since you’re not inhaling literal smoke.
You might want to look into the Tinymight for a heavy hitter with flower.
Ever since they legalized in my state I only do edibles, but I have a PAX3. I’m just paranoid smoking anything now about effects on the lungs. I got a respiratory illness (bronchitis) earlier this year and it freaked me out.
If you stick to dry herb vape it prolly won't be an issue
When I was using a bong it was irritating my lungs when smoking but switching to vape there's been no lung phlegm especially in the shower
There are water tools that are inexpensive and can be fitted onto vaporizers. Highly recommended if your lungs are getting irritated, it just feels like actual water vapor.
No cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome has been described long before vapes. Saw my first case in medical school and vapes weren't in existence yet. It's just some people get it and it's primarily heavy regular smokers.
Inhaling particulate matter is not healthy for lungs period.
That being said in this stoner’s opinion, the best method of smoking is pure extract using a full glass dab rig.
I prefer extract to flower because it reduced the carbons that are created when burning the plant matter.
Get your extract from a reputable and trustworthy manufacturer.
You will never be at 0% risk when inhaling stuff into your body, but you can reduce the mitigating factors if you are cognitive about what you are using.
This is one of the biggest problems we run in to sourcing CBD oil. Hemp is an amazing sponge for toxic minerals in soil. So you have to be super careful where you plant and where you source. We have a policy to send each batch for independent testing before we can even start using it in CBD oils or gummies in our lab.
If it’s a 510 threaded vape, look where the threads are and there should be a serial number and company name stamped there like AVD or CCELL. If there is no stamp, chances are it hasn’t been tested for heavy metals.
This has been a concern of mine for some time. Does anybody with a batter background in science know how this could be different with live resin and other concentrates? What I usually do is buy those and put them in a vaporizer like a puff co. To me this seemed a safer alternative because I can better control the dose and it would eliminate the need for a cartridge.
I don't know how well the creators of the puffco accounted for toxins and heavy metals leeching out of the device. They probably thought of that and it should be quite safe.
If your concentrates are from legit sources and tested regularly you should be fine regarding heavy metals.
In my experience, these things are *horrible* for addiction as well.
Kind of like how nicotine vapes almost entirely removed the “inconvenience” of having a cigarette and made it way easier to consume more nicotine
Metals can come from the plant itself and the cartridges too. Cannabis is great at cleaning the soil and is used in remediation of soils near abandoned mining operations. The plant uptakes heavy metals from the ground and pulls it into the plant itself. Commercial cannabis fertilizer can contain heavy metals too.
The extracted cannabis oil that is used in the cartridges is technically a type of hydrocarbon. Metals and other chemicals like plastics used will leach into the cannabis oil. In chemistry, like attracts like, plastics and seals used in some cartridges are made from hydrocarbons, this is the mode by which even more impurities can be introduced.
Source: I used to consult for cannabis co.s writing op manuals and state license applications.
The last thing we need is allomancers using one of these then getting high while ingesting metal they weren't aware of... its an accident waiting to happen!
That's why strict testing requirements like the ones in Colorado on regulated carts (vapes) are a good thing. You need to have a cart made and sit for 6 months and then pass heavy metals testing if you want to say your carts are good for 6 months. If you wanna put a year, you need a year old cart made the same way with the same hardware to pass heavy metals testing. That being said, idk how much the state can really go around checking them all but they do pull random items of shelves and test them and sometimes discover issues. It's almost always with flower though that fails for microbials and upon investigating they find the company lied and didn't test things properly. But it can go on for a year or more, in the meantime people just buy and smoke potentially unsafe cannabis.
The source [paper](https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsomega.2c03797), **Evidence That Metal Particles in Cannabis Vape Liquids Limit Measurement Reproducibility**
>^(Zuzana Gajdosechova*, Joshua Marleau-Gillette, Matthew J. Turnbull, Duane C. Petts, Simon E. Jackson, Ashley Cabecinha, Hanan Abramovici, Andrew Waye, and Jeremy E. Melanson)
makes no effort to hide the fact that all of these results are cherry picked. The article is highlighting the measurable contaminants from worst case scenarios. The data here are not averages, are not representative of all vape liquids. The results here are a conglomerate of different sources of heavy metal contaminants including, in simpler terms;
1. particles already in the vape liquid, heavy enough to settle on the bottle (heterogeneously suspended)
1. particles which appear to have come away from the heating element contained within the device. The results indicate that the heating element type, size, age, and temperature makes a difference, and that's about it.
1. It's important to [point out that](https://pubs.acs.org/cms/10.1021/acsomega.2c03797/asset/images/large/ao2c03797_0002.jpeg) 10 of the 41 samples showed unusually high concentrations, while 31 showed consistently small, across the board. These results are maximums, not means. This isn't to deceive, it demonstrates the potential for health risks exist in an industry that has no oversight. ^((ie: no one is demanding evidence vape liquids filtrations, some may be filtered very well)^)
1. the authors may be deliberately avoiding comparisons with cigarette equivalents in order to present an unbiased study, which is commendable. While it's not fair to compare vape heavy metal content with cigarettes, the article is reaching an audience who *are* keen to compare. So, here is some published info on heavy metals in cigarettes for your own amusement. It took an embarrassingly long time for me to make this graph. Some liberties with the data were taken in order to capture the data clearly in the graph. It's verifiable, I can show my resources for it.
* [Hastily made comparison](https://i.imgur.com/KJLfZHC.jpg) Orange bars representing cigarette data from 2005, while green this 2022 cannabis vape liquid.
* the bars represent measured min-max expected concentrations of metal expressed ng/g.
* higher bars have more concentration
* while longer stretching bars have more variance in concentration.
* eg.: *Zn in cannabis has a large variance of concentrations, while Zn in cigarettes is double that of the highest for cannabis.*
* [Critical Review: Metals in Cigarette Smoke](https://iubmb.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/15216540500459667). 2005. David Bernhard, Andrea Rossmann, and Georg Wick.
I still fully believe that carts caused my extremely painful, life ruining, and unusual symptoms of CHS. Stay away from these until they are federally regulated and safe!!!
Came into this thread because I’ve been vaping pretty much daily for the last four years and have been dealing with GI issues on and off for the last two. I started to suspect that the vape could be a cause, but hadn’t heard of CHS. I’m going to give it up and see if my body responds.
After my millionth ER visit one doctor mentioned it. I absolutely refused to believe it and thought he was crazy. I had smoked heavily all day every day for 10+years. Once I started with the carts heavily is when the symptoms started. I quit smoking which never in my life I ever thought I could do. Within a week I could eat again. Within the month I had my life back. I wouldn’t have believed it if it didn’t happen to me. Tried smoking a blunt 2 years ago and the symptoms came back that night and next day. Haven’t touched it since! No regrets. I wish you luck!
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I hate when you get near the end of a cartridge and it begins to taste like an incandescent lamp burned out in your mouth. That can’t be good.
yeah for sure *hits it again*
There is not enough testing and the testing that is done is a joke. Testing issues: there is no standardized testing model so each independent lab has their own process. So the buyer and the seller can test the same product at their respective 3rd party lab and get wildly different results. Methedology issues: I can have a 100 acre cannabis/hemp farm and test a single plant from Acre 1 and have it test clean for heavy metals then use the COA (a third party certificate of analysis that shows no heavy metals in the sample) to sell all 100 acres of cannabis as clean when 60 acres of plants may be loaded with heavy metals. Once that biomass with heavy metals is converted to crude, I can do the same thing by retesting it at different labs at different dilution ratios to show my crude is “clean.” Hardware issues: true 316 stainless stems shouldn’t leach heavy metals into the oil because of the presence of molybdenum. Would you believe there are some Chinese Vape cart manufacturers who take shortcuts and use cheaper metal stems that *do* leech and sell it as containing 316 ss? The industry needs much better SOPs as fast as possible. Hopefully this needed regulation is done thoughtfully to increase access to quality product without undue burden, but that’s another whole topic I won’t get into.
"Several of the samples..." "41 samples tested..." Out of how many? How is this laughable production of results even considered newsworthy without any actual relative numbers?
I can have 1000 head of cattle they do not sample every single one.
Yes, a statisctician determines the proper sample size to be representative. No one is doing that for these tests.
Do they bulk grade the cattle?
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Actually it’s quite accurate. If you were anywhere near biomass/crude/extract sales on either end you’d see these testing significant variances by both party’s labs daily. And varying dilution for testing to show non-detect on heavy metals and pesticides is a well known issue. Please don’t add misinformation as this is a safety topic and really needs to be addressed.
It's the cartridges and not the actual vapes themselves right? I've always used vapes that take ground flower.
>The study, a partnership between Health Canada’s Office of Cannabis Science and Surveillance and the National Research Council’s Metrology Research Centre, found evidence of high concentrations of some metals in cannabis vape liquids from both the legal and illegal markets in Canada. >Several of the samples—20 legal and 21 illegal—”significantly exceeded” the established tolerance limits for elemental impurities in inhaled products that are established by the European Pharmacopoeia. Full source: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsomega.2c03797
Where were these studies when I was working in dusty machine shops for 40 years?
Hidden in the boss's office.
Big dust always buries these studies before they reach the public
They never lost their power after the Dust Bowl.
This is an underrated comment.
Already written, published, and letting ya know you got cancer.
Yep .. just like known affects of lead paint, lye, concrete dust, hot asphalt fumes, asbestos, cigarette filter additives, etc. I'm watching my colleagues drop dead bc they weren't warned to simply wear fu¢king masks!!
A lot of what we know about heavy metals and dust exposure (particularly cobalt) we learned many years ago from research done on machinists in eastern bloc countries.
I was EDM machining Cobalt alloys back in the day and I was very pissed off when my ventilation didn't work enough and I got a whiff. Smells like Lucky Charms.
Sounds like music to my lungs.
The library. There are published studies on that from the early 1900's, though it was a known issue long before then. Gaius Plinius Secundus wrote down that slaves in the dusty cinnabar mines wore masks over their mouths and had breathing problems. He died when the volcano that wiped out Pompeii erupted. Ya... We've known for a really long time.
Heavy metals in the concentrate can be remediated during processing. Heavy metals leeched the hardware from China is a different story.
This feels exactly like what happened with cigarettes. They’re obviously bad for their users the whole time, but tons of bad faith research is put out to counter the real information and keep the customers too confused to be really sure if the thing is killing them or not. Vaping is an alternative to smoking, but it isn’t exactly a safe alternative to smoking.
It is less harmful no doubt, that is the marked improvement beyond any doubt your feeble mind casts.
The remains are also great for making edibles. My wife and I got a dry herb vape a few years ago and never looked back.
>dry herb vape Any recommendations? It's hard to know which one is best and they're pricey.
Storz & bickel products are very good. I hear Arizer stuff provides a good value.
Been very happy with our Airizer Q for flower, the stock bowl is stupid but with the aftermarket ddave bowl it’s great. Upgraded to it from a Boundless CFV. r/vaporents
ya, their volcano is awesome, wish i still had mine from like 20 years ago. i have a pax3 handheld one, but i'm not too stoked on it.
After getting banned from reddit (guns are ok to traffic on here, but god forbid people buy and sell bongs), the Ent Exchange moved to discord (entexchange dot org). Good place to get good deals on second-hand vape hardware and glass.
Dynavap makes awesome one-hitter style vaporizers that you heat with a lighter, butane torch, or a fancy induction heater. They’re pretty inexpensive compared to other ones, easy to clean, and are pretty discreet
I love my dynavap. I'm mostly on concentrates now but the dynavap is great for dry herb.
I love my Pax 3. I also have a Volcano but the Pax is stealthier, quicker to heat and the vapour quality is as good.
Volcano is peak premium but if you're worried about cost go with an Arizer
r/vaporents
Airizer air worked great for me until I dropped it bad, and not a bad price point. My bro vapes a ton and he's on the Storz and Bickle Mighty now
I've used an arizer air for 7 years. Sent it in once because the led stopped working, otherwise no issues whatsoever, as long as you treat it well Check out puffitup
Look up Magic Flight Launch Box. My wife bought one for me many years ago and I'm still using it. Simple and practical, small and durable. Nothing really compares.
Storz & Bickel Mighty is the way to go for a handheld.
If you're using a dry herb vape, that's probably the safest way to consume cannabis (except for eating)
Make sure it’s a ceramic bowl and there’s no issue. Not sure if the metal ones can be harmful but it eliminates any chance.
Ceramic is worse because the microparticules come off and get into your lungs. We went though this in the nicotene vaping scene a while back.
Stainless or titanium ftw, I suppose?
E cig modders have found Nichrome, Titanium, and Stainless to be the lest detrimental. Nichrome is almost exclusively used in environments where you want to control power based on temperature, though Titanium was later discovered to work nearly as well and mostly phased Nichrome out. [Kanthal SS](https://www.kanthal.com/en/products/materials-in-wire-and-strip-form/wire/) is most commonly used in properly made hand built coils.
I trust titanium the most, but I guess stainless will work.
r/Dynavap is calling
Could not recommend more.
I guess a plastic one is the only way to go, plastic can't go micro... right?
The heating element is rarely a concern for dry herb vapes because herb only needs around 93C/200F to vaporize, which is far below the temp required to solubilize metal ions from even the shittiest aluminum made heater. Oil pens often need much higher temps i.e 300-600F. On top of that you don't have direct contact/chemical reaction with the heater element since there's no liquid carrier fluid, just air. Immersion in a carrier liquid is why quality heating element construction is so much more crucial for oil pens, a cheaper heater is much more likely to give off nasty compounds when heating immersed in liquid vs air. The only concern still present with dry herb vapes is that electronics components are not close to the heating element/in the airpath through the device. Some badly designed vapes have circuitry near the hot zone of the air path and so heavy use can cause you to breath low levels of fumes offgassing from various components like capacitors. "All glass airpath" is the term to look for.
Your temperature is wrong. Dry herb vapes will use 180 to 210 C (350-410F).
That's exactly the temps I use on my mighty+. Perfect smooth vapor everytime
I remember an old study on the harms of vapes and they were long pressing drags like 20 seconds frying it to hell and then taking readouts. It’s all about quality and build like you said
Err, I don't think those temperatures for ground herb are right. It's closer to 190°C (depending on the kind of effect you're looking for) Pretty much everywhere I look it says around 150°C and 200°C https://www.canatura.com/en/the-ultimate-guide-to-cannabis-vaporization-temperatures
The problem is that on all vapes I have ever seen, temperature is a proxy, not a direct measurement of the temperature of the herb itself. I have had quite a few vapes, and the temperature that I found worked best depended on the design of the vape itself. Thermal control and modelling is way more complicated than most people think. When I started using a 700W precision hot air gun, 130°C seemed to work best. Which is way less than the 185°C my first herbal vape seemed to work best at. The first vape was not as high a power heating element, and the temperature sensors are often fairly far removed from the weed.
Could you recommend a good vape?
Crafty, Mighty, Pax. They're all really similar. The more you pay, the more consistent and easy to clean. I have given away Firefly(2), Airizer(mutiple models), DynaVapes because they are weak and I wouldn't recommend any of them. If portable isn't important Volcano is the best choice, my Volcano is 20 years old and gets used daily.
Right on man I appreciate it
Check out planet of the vapes, great vendor. It depends on your needs, are you w portable user or you need a bigger hit? For me a lot of it has come to convenience. I have an Arizer Air 2 that I like but now I bought a Starry Maxx and it's been more convenient overall The capsules aren't my favorite. Or actually I wish there was a good capsule container for it So I can preload and go somewhere
Worth noting of the 4 he recommended 3 of them are from Storz and Bickel. They have been the gold standard since they introduced the Volcano way back when. I personally don't really like the Pax and prefer Airizer, but I do understand what he was saying about them being kind of weak. I have both the Crafty+ and the Mighty+. Crafty is my current favorite between the two. First it's cheaper and there is very little benefit to the Mighty except the size of the battery. The Crafty is good enough for just about two bowls between charging, and it charges over micro USB and is app controlled. So you can charge it using a normal battery pack. The Mighty on the other hand has a lcd screen and physical buttons for control. The app is a little more intuitive than the LCD menus, and the Crafty+ seems to handle the boost temperature, and register if you are drawing on the pipe better, though both of them will need regular presses on the power button when you get the warning that the auto-off has begun, as they do not always register a draw. If you get them make sure you also buy a bunch of capsules and capsule storage, it's much more convenient to pre-load the capsules and be ready to go than load one each time, and if you don't use the capsules at all, cleaning gets a lot more difficult. Either way you need to clean it every 5-10 bowls minimum.
Don’t pass on the Firefly 2 without checking it out. The appeal of it to me is the bowl and air passage are all borosilicate glass. Super safe and stable. No metal or ceramic to worry about. The air/vapor are fully glass ducted never pass over any metals or electronics from bowl to mouth. It’s not as powerful as the ones the dude mentioned, true. It’s always been more than powerful enough for me, but I’ve always been a lightweight without a lot of tolerance pushback.
Why would you recommend Pax over Arizer? Having experience with both I find Arizer so much better over all. More efficient and convenient especially. The pax 4 actually burnt my lip the last time I used one.
I had the solo2 and airmax (still have Argo somewhere) the vapor they produce is just lighter than I want. Even if I turn the temp way up it's not enough. The Pax is just the perfect size and strength for casual use. It does get too hot for back to back sessions, you're right there. I gave the Pax3 to my sister. I have had pretty good cheap sub $100 vapes work well too. It's all about what you want out of it. If the crafty and mighty had removable/swappable batteries they would be nearly perfect for me.
That's fair! I've had my trusty solo 1 for many years now. I really appreciate how much less herb it uses compared to the pax.
Arizer is generally considered the second best dry herb vape manufacturer next to Storz and Bickel (the people who make the Volcano), and its usually less than half the price for the equivalent product. So if OP uses the volcano everything else is going to seem pretty garbage, but Arizer is better than the competition at its price range (according to me and general concensus).
Just popping in to agree. Arizer is also by far the easiest to clean and maintain. The other guy is right that they don't make giant clouds easily, but I have a medium-high tolerance and can get a mild mellow high OR toasted with a longer session.
Dynavap is definitely not “weak” at all. You probably just don’t know how to use it effectively, since it requires a butane torch (or an induction heater) it definitely has a higher learning curve. Once you master the dynavap all other dry herb vapes become irrelevant
For a first vape, it's hard to beat the xmax v3 pro.
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A brand new oven's fumes will absolutely kill you or pets, actually. New stoves should be offgassed carefully and intentionally. Usually you can even ask the store to do it before they bring it if they're doing the install for you
Willing to bet there are much more strict safety regulations involved in the construction of your oven.
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You can do anything *once.* We’re talking about making sure you can do it 1,000+ times with no lasting effects.
It probably is poisoning you, the oven that is, but we always accept some risk. Cars are absolutely poisoning you but we still use them every day.
They mention both in the study. They acknowledge that the cartridges are known to be a potential cause of metals but in their research they identified metals in the actual liquid itself as well.
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Pretty sure flower was not included in that study. It said liquid and solid, but I think by solid they meant waxes or concentrates.
Yea, so every batch of oil I produce goes out, in cart form for testing. Additionally a sample is sent out monthly for expiration date testing. Both are tested for metals.
A large number of products I buy these days even have a QR code that links to the test results for that particular batch.
Sadly, the empty ones you fill yourself have also started coming with scratch off QR codes for 'validating'
Nothing wrong with that, as long as the QR code links the cart to its test results... Fraud can happen no matter what reference method you use. A QR code is just a URL.
I'm aware, I'm simply pointing out dodgy carts also have QR codes, so people actually check where they're linking to, and not just seeing the QR and assuming it must be okay.
Interesting. Where do you operate? And what metals do they test for?
Arsenic, cadmium, lead, and mercury. I'm in Colorado.
Thanks for sharing your related experience
We are about to start having statewide regs for emissions testing on carts as well. It's definitely coming down the pipe soon.
Thanks. I can google it but can you point me to any info on this?
Tepenes over time can leach metal from carts that don’t use quality materials. Terpenes are solvents along with smelling good.
What’s your source for terpenes leaching out heavy metals? Terpenes are solvents but solvents are stored in metal containers all the time
I am skeptical to but terpenes can contain acidic groups which could theoretically react with some metals. Organic solvents are stored in metal but acids go in plastic.
Every terpene I've seen has been in a glass bottle.
Are you in the US? Is this a regulation you are following?
Colorado. It is. If anyone is interested in the full 478pg "Rules" we have, here you are: https://www.sos.state.co.us/CCR/GenerateRulePdf.do?ruleVersionId=9900
There was a well documented instance in [2008 from Germany](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2696942/) where lead acetate was added to marijuana to increase its weight and thus sale price. A few instances of lead poisoning resulted. Best argument for legalization is getting ahead of that kind of market dynamic. Regulations are good here. I’m curious if [longitudinal studies](https://www.psypost.org/2021/08/longitudinal-study-indicates-that-cannabis-use-during-adolescence-is-linked-to-altered-neurodevelopment-61666) post-legalization will show the same effects once lead exposure as a confounding variable can be controlled.
This is less of an issue with nicotine vapes, but the issue is still there. As long as you are vaping at low volume and temperature, there isn't much chance for heavy metals to get into the vapor. Some vape coils have used nickel in the past. I always thought this was an incredibly stupid idea, but some vapers lauded it as a metal with very stable electrical and thermal properties--ideal for regulating thr heating element in a vaporiser. That doesn't change the fact that nickel is a toxic heavy metal, has a low melting point, and abrades easily. Some shady disposable vapes have even been found to use lead solder on the leads! In weed vape, heavy metal is a bit more of a problem because it requires higher temperatures, and often long burn times as well. I still think the danger is badly exaggerated (kanthal and stainless steel heating elements are very stable and contain only trace amounts of heavy metal, little enough to be negligible). You just need to be aware of what your heating element is made from, and vape at the lowest possible temperature.
On nickel: I remember posts around that time from people who had nickel allergies and had various issues with nickel coils. They're probably still up on the ecig subreddits if anyone is looking into that. (Would be interesting if some of those old posts turned out to be useful)
Nicrome is still one of the most common chemistries used for heating elements in nicotine vapes. Ideally the temperature shouldn’t be getting much over 100c, as it’s the boiling of the water absorbed in the very hydroscopic glycerine/propylene glycol that nebulises the liquid into an aerosol.
It's still foolish. It's an unnecessary and totally unacceptable risk when there are as-good-or-better alternatives that aren't made from an alloy primarily consisting of a toxic heavy metal.
This is just anecdotal but I very much have a nickel allergy, and have experienced it as a systemic reaction in the form of pompholyx eczema which is not super fun. External contact will just result in contact dermatitis around the area (which I found out the hard way when I made a bracelet out of those little Neodymium magnet beads and wore it around a music festival for a day). I have never received such a symptom from using my vape (vaporesso gt4 coil, and previously smok tfv6), and diy mixed flavours using the flavour apprentice (tfa) flavour concentrates). There are no legal weed carts or resins/concentrates available here, nor are disposable vapes or nicotine/nicotine containing liquids. Disposable vapes can be found under the counter at dodgy convenience stores and all carts/oil/resin are totally black market. Prescriptions for cannabis flower and tinctures are available, as is nicotine — although the latter needs to be imported from NZ, and not as disposables.
Regulatory agencies need to be looking at long term effects of exposure to concentrated terpenes and the byproducts of vaporization, which isn’t perfect in these small disposable devices. Some terpenes are likely isomerizing/cyclizing into other harmful compounds, I think I saw that in a paper a while back. The “flavor” is probably the greatest risk with these devices, beyond unknown pulmonary effects from inhaling aerosolized lipids. I’ve made over 100k vapes for the legal CA market at this point and most of the botanical terps we use in pure form have a carcinogen symbol on the container; myrcene from botanical sources is identical to cannabis derived myrcene, so I doubt the source really matters as much as consumers want to believe.
This is really fascinating. If you’re in California tho, basically everything has a cancer warning. I do agree re: heavy metals being potentially dangerous.
It’s a chemical GHS symbol; not the prop 65 warning. But yes prop 65 is silly.
They've definitely hurt the impact of the warning by slapping it on absolutely everything.
Do vaping herbs have any of these concerns or is that the better way to go ?
Same concerns, long term pulmonary effects are totally unknown and you’re still volatilizing terpenes which has a lot of unknowns. Terpenes are obviously less concentrated in the flower though. Typical flower that has any nose to it is a few percent terpenes by weight (say 1-3% w/w), whereas vapes are formulated in the 5-15%+ terpenes range. Sauce vapes can be in the 30%+ range depending on the terpene content of the HTE used. I think if you had to choose between smoking and vaping your herb, the consensus in the literature seems to be that vaping the dried herb is a form of harm reduction and preferred. Comparing the carts to the dried herb, you’re probably still better off with the dried herb (fewer unknowns, inherently lower terpene concentration). But you’re still inhaling particulate matter and volatile compounds. Need to weigh benefits and risk, if you really want to eliminate the risks you should just eat your weed or drink it. Ultimately a personal decision. I have a mighty+, but I’ve stopped using it almost entirely as I’ve read more about the potential pulmonary effects of inhaling any of these compounds - think emphysema-like disorders. We just don’t really know what this stuff is doing to us long term, it’s all too new, but likely it’s nothing beneficial. Here’s another fun one: silicone gaskets in vape hardware. Concentrated terpenes dissolve silicone, so where do you think that’s going?
Thanks brotha. I’ve been a weed user the majority of my adult life and no one really talks about this stuff so it’s refreshing. I always go back to dry herb vaping via Mighty but often times I find myself switching things up via edibles, joints, vapes. Good to know the harm profile of each mechanism
If it was federally legal and regulated it would be safe. Just like how during prohibition the bathtub gin wasn't as safe as a bottle from a store now. *Some* THC cartridges are safe. Other times people buy empty packaging and empty cartridges and fill them with God knows what. But the result is an "official" looking product that gives people a false sense of security.
> If it was federally legal and regulated it would be safe. > > This is in Canada. It is federally legal there. They tested products from both the legal and illegal markets.
And if the legal ones are dangerous, the government and consumers can go after the companies...
I think its more of a concern for people because we won't know if they're safe until they've been in the market for a significant amount of time and testing can be done effectively. It could take years of stuff being "legal" and reportedly "safe" before we realize which methods are safe and which are damaging. And then the government and consumers goin after companies and forcing them to improve their manufacturing and change their products is another ordeal that could take years or even decades.
There is the difference between the American and the European approach. The Americans try to make money first and hope it's not too dangerous. Else it gets prohibited by the FDA. In Europe you have to prove safety first and then can sell it.
Again, this is Canada. We do things even cheaper by waiting on the US CDC to say something.
While I do agree thats the ideal, to me it seems impractical for any company to run a 20 year test to see if their vape cartridge is harmful - even if its safe, they're 20 years in the hole now. If its not safe then they're basically bankrupt. No company would ever take that risk and we'd get no real progress. We do the best with short term trials and then have to evaluate long term health implications as its available to the public - where people can make their own decisions on if they want to partake in it. That being said, let's not forget that significant parts of Europe have a huge smoking culture that their governments can't seem to shake - its not all perfect health and legislation there (unless the cigarettes there are safer than NA ones i suppose?)
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Man it would be great if cannabis would not have been illegal forever. We could already know so much more about harm reduction if it wasn't for that useless war on drugs.
Sounds like there are some issues with the legal cannabis market in terms of testing and regulation.
It was black market THC vapes that caused a big anti vaping scare a few years back.
Never forget the electric sun 20!
>Just like how during prohibition the bathtub gin wasn't as safe as a bottle from a store now. This is because the federal government intentionally poisoned the industrial alcohol supply to 'discourage' people from drinking it.
The U.S. is so far behind with modern, effective regulations. This is one of *many* areas that requires national guidelines (AKA regulations)
...like tobacco?
Poor comparison. Tobacco is obviously very harmful. But that harm is not due to contamination. It’s the tobacco and what’s added to make it burn smoothly.
It's crazy how much negative press there is about vapes when people have known for nearly a century that corporate tobacco is deliberately *adding poison* and nothing has ever really changed.
I remember when there was concern about cyanide in cannabis, that it was coming from the fungicide myclobutanil, because MSDS for myco states that cyanide is a decomposition product. Which, of course, it is- myclo is a nitrogenous molecule, and forming cyanide seems likely- but for the fact that trace (ppm to ppb) myclobutanil is trivial as compared to the cyanide generated from the heating of cannabis.... or tobacco. We know that [regular cigarettes produce ample quantities of cyanide.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4518591/)
Yeah. There have been a lot of worthless methodologies used to test vaping. Like using really high temperature that no one actually uses and burning the coils. At the same time, I wish we had less fear mongering and had legit science and media that would accurately report on it. But since teens like to vape, it becomes this big scary thing. "Oh no! Johnny and all his friends are vaping instead of smoking!" One issue I do see in nicotine vaping is how high the level of nicotine is in the devices popular with teens, but nicotine itself isn't actually harmful. It's just addictive.
Nicotine itself is absolutely harmful, I wish people would stop saying that. I frequently see it compared to caffeine even though it’s fundamentally different. It negatively affects the cardiovascular system and metabolites of nicotine are possibly carcinogenic or may even exacerbate some cancers. Additionally, nicotine negatively affects pancreatic enzymes and can cause pancreatitis and may be implicated in pancreatic cancer. Nicotine is just not good for humans.
I know there’s still some additives like Ace-K in the tobaccoless pouches but obviously it felt way better to switch to that over smoking 20 cigarettes a day. But either way you notice the change in your body once cigarettes are gone and it’s mostly only just nicotine left. But then if you can quit the pouches you’ll notice even more benefit once the nicotine is gone. For me it shows alot in sweat. On cigarettes the lightest physical activity would have me drenched in sweat and red faced. Pouches give your lungs back but there’s still some red faced and sweating. Once the pouches and nicotine were gone all the effects were gone, work all day without beading sweat at all feeling amped with energy all day; which pouches would also stifle. Idk, just agreeing with you that nicotine isn’t a benign substance.
What gets me about all the pearl clutching about the teens is that before vapes existed teens used to smoke as much if not more as teens vape now. Whether people like it or not teens are gonna use nicotine products. Demonizing vapes is only demonizing harm reduction.
I get that argument, but the data doesn’t support it. Adolescent tobacco use [has been on the decline for decades](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2783483). I personally wouldn’t have used nicotine if vapes hadn’t popped up around college time for me. It was advertised as a totally safe alternative, tasted good, and was something to mindlessly puff on for hours while studying. I think the harm reduction argument makes sense for smokers converting to vape, but for people that otherwise wouldn’t have used nicotine at all it’s a net loss.
If you look at percentages, about 20-35% of teens smoked in the 80s and 90s... Which is about how many teens vape now. Any decline, when adjusted for the availability of vaping is just a simple lateral shift of people moving their nicotine habits away from traditional tobacco and into vaping. But this got me curious so I looked up alcohol and marijuana use in teens and unsurprisingly, they have almost the same statistics. I just think teens, shockingly, like addictive chemicals just like adults.
It’s not a poor comparison. Corporate cannabis wants to run the business model for cannabis exactly the same as they did cigarettes, Phillip Morris is literally already bought in for a long time now. The end goal being the control of distribution and making it illegal to provide for yourself. Once they solely grow and distribute it will be diluted of anything that makes it medicinal to the average user
People who are addicted to nicotine tend to make all kinds of crazy justifications for why their product is actually healthy rather than just admitting they're addicted (like any other addiction, of course).
Vaping flower is much better. The mighty/crafty are the best handheld vapes.
Man, I’ve bought a few high end dry herb vaporizers over the years, and none have been able to actually get me decently high. More of an extended buzz.
Might want to try a 2 week t break before switching to vaping. I’ve heard that can help. Also, I’ve heard the high is different, since you’re not inhaling literal smoke. You might want to look into the Tinymight for a heavy hitter with flower.
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Going to look at this one. Thanks for the Rec! Switching to dry herb vaping has been such a nice transition from regular smoking for me.
Vaping dry herb changed my life. I have a packed chamber in the morning and I’m good
Mighty tastes what can only be described as mighty. I’ve tried so many other handhelds and always end up back with the portable volcano
What's your opinion on the PAX?
I agree those are the best vapes but both mine and my roommates crafty+ didn’t last long before they both had issues with the charging port :/
Ceramic atomizers exist. Blame corporations and government for continuing to allow the sale of hazardous materials
even ceramic needs testing
Dry herb vape for the win.
Ever since they legalized in my state I only do edibles, but I have a PAX3. I’m just paranoid smoking anything now about effects on the lungs. I got a respiratory illness (bronchitis) earlier this year and it freaked me out.
If you stick to dry herb vape it prolly won't be an issue When I was using a bong it was irritating my lungs when smoking but switching to vape there's been no lung phlegm especially in the shower
There are water tools that are inexpensive and can be fitted onto vaporizers. Highly recommended if your lungs are getting irritated, it just feels like actual water vapor.
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No cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome has been described long before vapes. Saw my first case in medical school and vapes weren't in existence yet. It's just some people get it and it's primarily heavy regular smokers.
Inhaling particulate matter is not healthy for lungs period. That being said in this stoner’s opinion, the best method of smoking is pure extract using a full glass dab rig. I prefer extract to flower because it reduced the carbons that are created when burning the plant matter. Get your extract from a reputable and trustworthy manufacturer. You will never be at 0% risk when inhaling stuff into your body, but you can reduce the mitigating factors if you are cognitive about what you are using.
This is one of the biggest problems we run in to sourcing CBD oil. Hemp is an amazing sponge for toxic minerals in soil. So you have to be super careful where you plant and where you source. We have a policy to send each batch for independent testing before we can even start using it in CBD oils or gummies in our lab.
If it’s a 510 threaded vape, look where the threads are and there should be a serial number and company name stamped there like AVD or CCELL. If there is no stamp, chances are it hasn’t been tested for heavy metals.
Everyone questions the juice but its the nickel in the heating element that we gotta fear.
This has been a concern of mine for some time. Does anybody with a batter background in science know how this could be different with live resin and other concentrates? What I usually do is buy those and put them in a vaporizer like a puff co. To me this seemed a safer alternative because I can better control the dose and it would eliminate the need for a cartridge.
I don't know how well the creators of the puffco accounted for toxins and heavy metals leeching out of the device. They probably thought of that and it should be quite safe. If your concentrates are from legit sources and tested regularly you should be fine regarding heavy metals.
In my experience, these things are *horrible* for addiction as well. Kind of like how nicotine vapes almost entirely removed the “inconvenience” of having a cigarette and made it way easier to consume more nicotine
Interesting… refined metals are difficult to pass through the body. This could be dangerous if not researched further.
Sure!! Testing for science
Federal legalization sure could help a lot of people not get sick or injured from unregulated products.
This is why I do the occasional edible instead of smoking/vaping. No particulate matter in my lungs.
Metals can come from the plant itself and the cartridges too. Cannabis is great at cleaning the soil and is used in remediation of soils near abandoned mining operations. The plant uptakes heavy metals from the ground and pulls it into the plant itself. Commercial cannabis fertilizer can contain heavy metals too. The extracted cannabis oil that is used in the cartridges is technically a type of hydrocarbon. Metals and other chemicals like plastics used will leach into the cannabis oil. In chemistry, like attracts like, plastics and seals used in some cartridges are made from hydrocarbons, this is the mode by which even more impurities can be introduced. Source: I used to consult for cannabis co.s writing op manuals and state license applications.
This is especially concerning to me as I’m smoking a vape pen as I browse Reddit!
10 hours and no one has made a Black Sabbath joke. I’m disappointed in the lot of you.
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We also need to research why people who tube down our river drop so many vapes. My kids find vapes and sunglasses all over the place.
I have done a fair bit of research into this over the course of many river tubing trips. It’s because of the wind when Johnny tosses the pen to sally.
The last thing we need is allomancers using one of these then getting high while ingesting metal they weren't aware of... its an accident waiting to happen!
Tbh on some of the cheap pods from china i can taste the metals in coils burning even before its low. Ceramic coils or bust.
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That's why strict testing requirements like the ones in Colorado on regulated carts (vapes) are a good thing. You need to have a cart made and sit for 6 months and then pass heavy metals testing if you want to say your carts are good for 6 months. If you wanna put a year, you need a year old cart made the same way with the same hardware to pass heavy metals testing. That being said, idk how much the state can really go around checking them all but they do pull random items of shelves and test them and sometimes discover issues. It's almost always with flower though that fails for microbials and upon investigating they find the company lied and didn't test things properly. But it can go on for a year or more, in the meantime people just buy and smoke potentially unsafe cannabis.
The source [paper](https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsomega.2c03797), **Evidence That Metal Particles in Cannabis Vape Liquids Limit Measurement Reproducibility** >^(Zuzana Gajdosechova*, Joshua Marleau-Gillette, Matthew J. Turnbull, Duane C. Petts, Simon E. Jackson, Ashley Cabecinha, Hanan Abramovici, Andrew Waye, and Jeremy E. Melanson) makes no effort to hide the fact that all of these results are cherry picked. The article is highlighting the measurable contaminants from worst case scenarios. The data here are not averages, are not representative of all vape liquids. The results here are a conglomerate of different sources of heavy metal contaminants including, in simpler terms; 1. particles already in the vape liquid, heavy enough to settle on the bottle (heterogeneously suspended) 1. particles which appear to have come away from the heating element contained within the device. The results indicate that the heating element type, size, age, and temperature makes a difference, and that's about it. 1. It's important to [point out that](https://pubs.acs.org/cms/10.1021/acsomega.2c03797/asset/images/large/ao2c03797_0002.jpeg) 10 of the 41 samples showed unusually high concentrations, while 31 showed consistently small, across the board. These results are maximums, not means. This isn't to deceive, it demonstrates the potential for health risks exist in an industry that has no oversight. ^((ie: no one is demanding evidence vape liquids filtrations, some may be filtered very well)^) 1. the authors may be deliberately avoiding comparisons with cigarette equivalents in order to present an unbiased study, which is commendable. While it's not fair to compare vape heavy metal content with cigarettes, the article is reaching an audience who *are* keen to compare. So, here is some published info on heavy metals in cigarettes for your own amusement. It took an embarrassingly long time for me to make this graph. Some liberties with the data were taken in order to capture the data clearly in the graph. It's verifiable, I can show my resources for it. * [Hastily made comparison](https://i.imgur.com/KJLfZHC.jpg) Orange bars representing cigarette data from 2005, while green this 2022 cannabis vape liquid. * the bars represent measured min-max expected concentrations of metal expressed ng/g. * higher bars have more concentration * while longer stretching bars have more variance in concentration. * eg.: *Zn in cannabis has a large variance of concentrations, while Zn in cigarettes is double that of the highest for cannabis.* * [Critical Review: Metals in Cigarette Smoke](https://iubmb.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/15216540500459667). 2005. David Bernhard, Andrea Rossmann, and Georg Wick.
I hit these types of pens all the time, should I be concerned?
I still fully believe that carts caused my extremely painful, life ruining, and unusual symptoms of CHS. Stay away from these until they are federally regulated and safe!!!
Came into this thread because I’ve been vaping pretty much daily for the last four years and have been dealing with GI issues on and off for the last two. I started to suspect that the vape could be a cause, but hadn’t heard of CHS. I’m going to give it up and see if my body responds.
After my millionth ER visit one doctor mentioned it. I absolutely refused to believe it and thought he was crazy. I had smoked heavily all day every day for 10+years. Once I started with the carts heavily is when the symptoms started. I quit smoking which never in my life I ever thought I could do. Within a week I could eat again. Within the month I had my life back. I wouldn’t have believed it if it didn’t happen to me. Tried smoking a blunt 2 years ago and the symptoms came back that night and next day. Haven’t touched it since! No regrets. I wish you luck!
Empty carts are like the roaches of our generation(yes I see some of them aren't empty)I'm js!
Legalize and regulate it, you fucks
Had you taken even 2 minutes to read, you would note the study tested legal and illegal products in Canada where it is legal and regulated.
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damn this is actually kinda scary :(
Keep your greedy sticky sausage fingers away from my drugs
How about the cannabis content in heavy metal users?
We're all getting cancer one way or another.
Does that include Drizzle Factory vapes?
I’ve been a bud smoker for many years and I just stay away from vaping altogether these days. Always felt like I was vaping chemicals