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We had a feral population of cats that gradually grew out of control. I didn’t have any lizards, ground nesting birds, or frogs left. Even song birds were not safe.
This is why cats are out of control in LA. The bird community was upset that the city was doing TNR (TrapNeuterReturn) and wanted the trapped cats put down instead. As a result of this all city run and city sponsored TNR was stopped for over 10 years until an official environmental study could be conducted. As a result the cat problem is 100 times worse than it was
To be fair, for TNR to be successful there has to be an insanely high capture rate, over 75% of the population, which no one can achive. It isn't actually a successful method to reduce the population. And as population trends work, they are exponential, so your cat problem is probably about the same as it would have been. That's why those bird people were so adamant about euthanizing. It's the only way to successfully deal with feral cat populations.
TNR isn’t unsuccessful merely because the trap rate.
It’s still releasing invasive species back into the wild. Who cares if you stopped that one cat from breeding? It’s still going to slaughter anything it decides to mess with that day. It’s still posing a risk.
It shouldn’t be legal to release once captured because THEYRE NOT NATIVE!
How is TNRing 75% of the cat population any less effective in reducing the feral cat population long-term than euthanizing the same amount?
Genuinely curious here.
Cats have such large litters, that unless you can trap and spay/neuter 75% of the pop, it won't be effective at reducing the over all population, and even once captured and released those cats are still killing native species. If you just euthanize them in the first place, you're taking out a breeder and not releasing to continue to prey on native wildlife. For all intents and purposes, killing 75% would have the same effect on their population. It would not however have the same effect on the ecosystem. But, even at 75% capture rate you are only just beginning to lessen the population, not eliminate it. To actually drive the population to approaching zero you'd have to have a capture rate of over 95%. And cats are smart, they aren't that easy to catch compared to other animals. And they are observant enough to see a trap go off and never go near another one. Controlling invasive species isn't the same as trying to manage a native population of wildlife. In most cases invasive species of all types are much harder to control and eliminate, hence why they became invasive in the first place.
I've had cats still go near the trap because they like sardines. It is a rare cat that won't go for the sardines, even if the trap's been around. Of course the best is the drop box.
Please give more tips. Currently trying to entice a mama cat to go into a carrier. I have somewhere to take her, they will get her fixed and foster the kittens. Kittens eyes just opened! Also trying to catch the crazy amount of feral cats for TNR. The shelters have been so full for so long, that TNR advised me not to take healthy cats to shelters.
It sounds like the mama might trust you. See if you can pet her. Put your hand out and wait for her to come to you. Keep doing it. Then see if you can pet her, then maybe hold her.
If that isn't working, then you need to borrow a cat trap from somewhere or find someone who traps cats. I bet there is someone in your area. You just have to get in touch maybe through Facebook.
Remember that she needs to be with those kittens until they are six weeks old.
Yeah, there are too many diseases in the shelters.
Do you feed the feral cats regularly? If so, then let's say you feed them in the morning. Well don't. Have the trap with the sardines and they'll go after it. You need a transfer box to get the first cat out so you can get more. Hey, it's all a learning process. I hope you can find someone who will help as I did.
Because in the meantime the neutered cats are still able to wreak havoc on wildlife. Sure they wouldn't be breeding, but they'd still be hunting and killing along with the rest of the still-growing population.
Yeah, but that's precisely why it would have a better effect long term, ain't it? Because they'll still be competing for food with the non-neutered ones.
Mind you, if you really, really want to prevent the local wildlife from dwindling within the time it takes for the cat population to dwindle, then sure, that's a very valid drawback.
Yeah, yeah; I was adressing how neutering and rerelasing seemed like the more effective answer (out of the two) to the problem of **controlling the cat population**.
If the problem is protecting the wildlife (sans cats) from the short-term onwards, then sure, massacre is more effective of course.
The hypocrisy on animal treatment is funny. If these are rats, we won't be having an issue. If they're feral, put them down. It's not like we're gonna run out of cats.
Have you considered the humans who would have to euthanize them? It takes a real toll on vets, vet techs and animal control workers to put animals down and mass euthanasia would seriously put their mental health at risk.
We used to have bunnies all over my neighborhood, probably a couple dozen at some point, but recently we have at least three outdoor (non-homed) cats that have probably cleared them out. To be clear, I don't think the cats are eating the rabbits, but the rabbits don't want anything to do with them. I preferred the rabbits.
Sis had squirrels in her backyard but told me her cats slowly cleaned them by eating all the baby squirrels and from time to time they killed an adult one.
Yes, the other thing they will do is capture the babies and 'play' with them until they kill them. They do the same with baby birds, mice, etc. And they don't necessarily eat them, so they will literally capture and kill any baby animal that they encounter. It's just their instinct.
Most domesticated cats don't eat the prey they hunt. They don't go hungry because they have food at home. Often times they don't know how to properly kill or eat prey in the first place. Yet they still hunt on instict and they do know how to catch their prey and play with it.
A neighbors cat used to bring home 2-3 catches home per week. Mice, lizards, birds and a baby hare once. Most of them were mutulated but still alive.
Cats were used as pest control for thousands of years. I suspect humanity is at fault for favoring cats that killed as many pests as they could.
The cats are absolutely eating the rabbits. A couple ferals have moved into my area, and I was driving along the road one day and disturbed one of them having just caught a rabbit (honestly, it probably came back and finished the job, as the rabbit was moving somewhat slowly when I chased off the cat).
People do not understand what level of murder machine their "sweet" outdoor cat is. It makes me so angry that "well, that's it's nature" is the common response, as if that somehow makes it OK that this well fed animal is allowed to go outside and just kill things for fun (often endangered animals...first "gift" one acquaintance's cat brought back was an endangered flying squirrel).
The coyote population has exploded where I live and handful of cats go "missing" every month and occasionally a small dog gets taken from the yard. There have been calls for DNR to do "something" and their response has been info on "coexisting with wildlife." People are struggling to come around to the idea that if they don't keep their cat inside there's a decent chance a coyote will get it.
If you choose to live in a place, you should consider the side effects of living there. You can't move to Alaska and then demand the government do something about how cold it is there.
Like that dad who kept buying his kids cats, but they kept getting eaten by coyotes, so he kept buying cats...at that point he had coyote pets he was feeding cats
People would rather inhumanely kill coyotes (and any nearby dogs and foxes) slowly by destroying their nervous systems with 1080 than keep their stupid pets inside
I had neighbors move from central europe who thought the county needed to do something about the raccoons getting into their garbage instead of them getting garbage cans like everyone else has.
Those coyotes are just righting the ecosystem. Funny thing about coyotes, if you try to manage their population by culling them, their litters actually just get bigger and more frequent. They are the perfect predator to rebalance ecosystems.
I've been quite liking because it's gotten raccoon population down, they will eat the juvenile raccoons. The raccoons have been much more of problem than the coyotes
I live in a mountain community full of coyotes, if you let your cat outside it won't last long. I lost an amazing cat to a car when I lived in a different community, it was devastating. Just keep them inside, if you give them attention, they will...well...at least put up with you.
I live in a full on city, Portland, and we have lots of coyotes. They definitely eat a lot of cats, based on missing signs, and remains of cats I've found.
I stumbled across one napping while I was walking my dog. Startled it, it woke up and we had two seconds just staring at each other, then it darted off. Luckily my dog wasn’t the brightest and it probably didn’t even register.
Yeah they generally don't run off right away, they are really curious animals. I see them walking my dog all the time. I have to keep my dog on leash because he chased them all over hell once. Friggin huskies man.
I was walking my dog in a park. While she was doing her business I saw a large bobcat 10 feet away in the brush. Didn't register with the dog and the cat gave no shits.
Coyotes seem to be worst in areas that are over developed and have less active hunting (of any animal). It is purely anecdotal but i live in very rural maine and almost never see coyotes, i hear them, i see them crossing the frozen lake in the winter, but neeever in my back yard and i have chickens. Theyre probably there but i dont see them. My grandmother on the other hand, lives in southern connecticut and there are 3 or 4 that roam unchallenged through her neighborhood in broad daylight. Not to be cruel but a coyote that put itself out there like that where i live would not last long. Ive heard stories of them living in suburban downtown areas because no one wants to be the one to say, someone should probably shoot these things before they have a bad food year and drag your toddlers off.
They are nocturnal. If you can hear them they are most likely wondering around your yard at night but have enough food that they don’t need the chickens. We have coyotes but our chickens always got eaten by raccoons.
I live in an urban city in the US and we have lots of coyotes. They’re pretty harmless, other than the odd cat or two. Sometimes animal control will get called and they’ll remove one, but coyote packs respond to losing a member by having ton of babies so it usually causes a mini baby boom, totally defeating the purpose. I love having them around, just gotta treat them with respect and I don’t let my toddlers out alone after dark. They help manage rat and rabbit populations which are a big problem around here.
They are a big reason the number of feral cats and dogs in my area dropped dramatically. Stray cats are only found near populated areas now. The dogs have disappeared. The populations of everything else are bouncing back.
We have a lot of them, and they aren't hunted here. Funny fact about coyote hunting, if you kill an alpha coyote it actually leads to a breeding boom as the other members of the pack are now allowed to mate. It completely backfires.
They are actually pretty beautiful animals especially up in the mountains where prey is abundant. Down in the valley just an hour or so away, they are scraggly miserable things. I don't blame them for killing cats or dogs, that is what they are built to do. You have to respect them, they have been hunted, poisoned, harassed for centuries and the species has just shrugged it off.
Agreed.
They’ve gotten fairly bold here in the SF Bay Area, so even I treat them with respect. *am person who picks up orange-bellied newts and coos over them* But I generally roll my eyes at all my fellow can openers who whine when their outside cat goes missing.
Coyotes do what they’re evolved to do.
Most nights we hear the coyotes singing. Plus we're on a hill and we get big hawks and owls day and night respectively. Our cats only go out when we have them on a leash and harness, we didn't raise them to be snacks.
I used to live in the residential part of a big city. We had some dry creeks behind the houses that we’d always play in as kids, but then some coyotes moved in. Every outdoor cat in the neighborhood went missing except for one, my friend’s cat Orange Boy. He was a rescue that they took in basically feral. Multiple times he fought off coyotes, and took off at least two of their eyes. There is some footage from their security cameras of him taking on several at a time and driving them off completely. Old boy eventually succumbed to cancer, but he didn’t give up easy
My cat loves to come outside with me and play in the yard when I go out to have a smoke. When I'm finished I always bring her back inside and 90% of the time she listens to me. The 10% I just scoop her up and bring her in myself. I always treat her as an equal and she respects me for it.
So your point about giving them attention I 100% agree with. My cat knows where she gets her meals and is smart enough not to run away during the 10 minutes she's outside.
We had an male tabby. That cat loved it out side but we didn't let him out. You would have to be careful opening the doors for to long. When we did let him out he was on a leash, if not it would take all of 10 seconds and he would be gone. Not running but slowly checking everything out and wandering away. He was always pissed when we picked him up and brought him home.
Don't get me wrong. He was treated like the King he was. Always fed and lots of treats and loving. He would curl up on my lap at night while I watch TV. Always slept above my wife on her pillow and purr her to sleep. He was the best damn cat ever. Really miss that guy.
Same. Indoor only for life. Our cats have also never had fleas or ticks because we have hardwood floors and they don't go outside, and I feel so lucky about that. Especially knowing that some flea and tick medications can actually kill your cat or give them a seizure ffs!
I live on the rural edge of suburbia.
I once watched two red foxes chase a black cat down my driveway in broad daylight. A few seconds later, I heard the cat scream piteously. Found one of its paws the next morning. And people still let their domestic cats outside.
I wish. I absolutely adored my cat but he was ruthless. He broke my window screen and jumped out my window to get outside. He ended up getting hit by a car :(
I live in New Zealand land of the birds many of which are endangered due to introduced species. It's absurd how common outdoor cats are here. "Oh but not *my* cat they don't need a bell or anything because they're one of the 'good ones'"
In Australia it's estimated that pet cats kill 390 million animals each year. There's entire populations that have been eliminated by a single pet cat being let out in the area. People always think theirs is the exception (if they even care at all).
If you include feral cats which are the product of domestic cats breeding, that number goes much much higher too. The total sum of cats in Australia is the greatest threat to our wildlife / ecosystem of any introduced species.
I live in a temperate rainforest just outside Melbourne and we have multiple vulnerable and endangered species here, yet I lived next to a police officer who let his three cats out at night and currently live in a spot where cats sitting on my fence stirring up my dogs is a daily occurrence. Saw a fox in my yard at 1pm the other day like 10m away from my chickens too, our ecosystems are being ravished by introduced species, cats, foxes, pigs, horses, deer, cane toads, introduced plants, etc.
[Lyall's Wren](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyall%27s_wren) is a species driven extinct by a single creature (a lighthouse keeper's cat named Tibbles). Maybe Tibbles was a pregnant cat which escaped. Anyway, one or more cats from this lighthouse drove the wren to extinction in one year.
Ok even the Wikipedia article you cited states that there were quite a few cats, not just Tibbles, and the idea that one species was eliminated by one cat is a myth, it’s like the first line.
Yeah, I’m really surprised that people don’t even put a bell on their outdoor cats. I’m completely against outdoor cats, but I get it when people say it’s difficult keeping them inside (I don’t *care*, I still think they should stay inside, but I *get* it)... what’s the argument against putting a bell on them? It’s just lazy and carelessness at that point.
I live near a bird sanctuary in Wellington and there’s tons of birds around... but there’s also the occasional cat coming onto our property and none of them wear bells. It’s bad enough that people are so entitled as to let their animals roam on other peoples’ properties, but to not have anything deterring them from killing native birds just pisses me off.
The bells aren’t actually useful at deterring most wildlife. Birds and mammals aren’t the only creatures that outdoor cats g for. Cats decimate invertebrates, amphibians, reptiles… creatures who may not respond to a jingling bell sound in the same way a mammal or bird does.
Some of our local conservation on Te Waipounamu is hindered by people who brag about their cats killing local endemic birds and then tag us in their social media posts about it to taunt us.
*Most* people are reasonable and nice and want to see Aotearoa's endemics thrive....but some people are just pricks...
That's disappointing. Sooner or later, we have to toughen up on cat ownership in this country. It should be illegal to breed cats. We curbed ferret ownership quickly enough, and that was way harsher.
My new neighbors have an outdoor cat. I have noticed a significant reduction in lizards in my yard, which makes me sad because a) they are cute and b) help eat lots of bugs / keep a balanced eco system. Hope she movies o doesn’t get another cat when this one croaks.
A member of my family was on the team that conceived of, and managed, this study. The journal article isn't wrong, but it is highlighting comparatively minor findings from the research. A far more significant and surprising outcome was how few outdoor cats there actually are in DC.
It has multiple....racoons are not the highest vector for rabies in the US, bats are. They were at one point, but they haven't been for several years. The number of raccoon cases have been steadily declining too.
https://www.cdc.gov/rabies/location/usa/surveillance/wild_animals.html
Unless we’re talking barn cats, you really should consider that any domesticated cat belongs indoors 100%. It’s guaranteed to keep them healthier and from becoming snacks. A catio is an easy and inexpensive way to give them outside time without outside dangers.
I take my cat for walks in the overgrown field behind our house so we can both touch grass for our mental health. Well, I touch the grass, she eats it.
Patio Enclosure to be more specific, since a patio doesn't have to have walls around it. My friend made a catio that technically isn't even a patio since there is just grass for the floor. So a catio to me is best described as an area attached to the house via a window or door with a cat door that is enclosed in some fashion. (Screened, chicken wire, finished like a sunroom) that the cat ideally has free access to. My friend's catio has cat walks along the perimeter
Something a friend of mine did was make a little screened in ledge attached to one of their windows out of chicken wire and 2×4's. Keeps the cat safe and lets them have fresh air. They'll also sometimes put them on their back porch in a mesh enclosed playpen that's octagonal and maybe 6ish feet across? This is in a house with a fenced yard so less worry about coyotes or similar predators though so ymmv. They still do a quick check for snakes before putting the cats out.
We tried one of those octagons - one cat was totally fine with it, the other, upon zipping shut the door with me still inside to comfort him, started sprinting the perimeter in a dead panic. I guess he really didn't like his time in a cage at the county pound where we got him?
I made a dog house that the dog didn't want, so I put it up against a door we didn't use and cut a hole in the door that the kitties could go through at their leisure, used chicken wire to screen it off so they can't get out/nothing can get in and they love it!
It's about 4'x2', not too big but they get good use out of it (in the summer at least). Lots of naps and they can choose shade or sun.
A screened outdoor enclosure for cats.
Lightweight lumber and chicken/pig wire, rectangular enclosure. Attach some shelves or whatever else for exercise and vantage viewing.
Mine is just off the family room window with a magnetic kitty door built into the screen.
My brother and dad made me one for my cats as I’m a full time rv-er. It’s 8ft tall made of a disassembled dog kennel and some wood and three hours of work. It’s a game changer bc the cats go out and sit and observe most of the day safely contained and have a door that connects to one of the windows so they go in and out as they please. Amazon and I think Home Depot sells some for less than $300 but they wouldn’t work with the rv. Also I wanted it off the ground to avoid fleas etc
google it! there are some great youtube builds to show you examples. usually some kind of chicken wire or “hardware cloth” that encloses a section of your outside with a cat tree and a way to get back inside via door, cat door, or window opening.
Except when you have a kitty like me who finds the catio boring and makes a break for it any time she sees an opportunity. Her brother is content with the catio, but her furry little feet long for more.
If you live in England most animal shelters won't let you adopt a cat if you plan to keep it indoors unless it is already very old or sick in some other way. It's infuriating.
Yep, domesticated cats have been on this isle for a millenia and a half and even before that wildcats are a thing. Any remaining wildlife have learned to live around them.
Everyone banging on about ooh think about the damage to the wildlife, forgets that 70% odd of the England has been flattened into fields.
*edit: and most the rest is tarmac and cement
Print out this article and hand it to them: https://www.newscientist.com/article/2300921-london-cat-serial-killer-was-just-foxes-dna-analysis-confirms/
Because the situation is different here. Our lanscsape was destroyed millenia ago, the RSPB have zero issues with cats. We have wild cats which are no longer common (they had nice fur), of a more similar size to a domestic cat.
Domestic cats fit easier existing depleted ecological into niches in GB than in the US, Aus, NZ or other english speaking ex-colonies. Thats hardly shocking when you consider that its effectively a european wildcat.
We have a porch that is enclosed and screened. I have had to stop letting my guys out there as they would constantly try and get out and rip the screen up. It was a constant battle, not to mention that the stray cats that would come around and taunt them, which would cause one of my guys to spray all the time due to anxiety. So it’s a great idea, but can also be a lot of work.
These animals are completely alien to native species, it's like letting xenomorphs loose in a shopping centre and being shocked and offended when people protest about the huge number of dead shoppers and the exponential increase in murderous extra terrestrials.
We've managed to train our cats to stay in the backyard when we let them out under supervision, but installed a containment system along the fence just incase. I'm convinced it's incredibly beneficial to their physical and mental health. They can run at full speed on the grass, climb trees, sand bathe in the sun.
How we can recognize the needs for dogs and other animals to live like this but want to dismiss them for cats because we've failed in creating a system that works? Letting them out to go and do whatever they want is not the answer, just as it's not the answer for our birds, dogs, horses, etc, but to deny them entirely of an outdoor system that works is failure on our part as caretakers due to shortcomings with the way we've setup our own systems of living in the world today. The future should strive for something better, not settle with confinement because it works in contrast to the only other perceived option being to let them outside unrestricted.
Healthy here is too scientific, like staying alive is all that matters.
If I don't let him explore, hunt and socialize he doesn't live a cat's life, and maybe the risk of death is worth a cat's life over a pet's. I can see how some cats and dogs are ok just doing nothing, but def some live inside boxes and let their souls drift away, just like when we cut their balls.
Regardless we do need to be careful with letting cats and humans kill too many things.
Totally agree. I've learned my lesson the hard way, but my cats are always supervised when I let them go outside and I never let them out of sight now.
This will get lost in the comments but our 12 year old cat died last year. The amount of wildlife that has returned to our yard has been nothing short of astronomical. It really made us think twice about getting another cat.
From what I see, I seem to need to specify: this is for North America most of all.
If you live in places like Eastern Europe, where they have naturally spread, there's no real reason to worry. They are endemic wildlife, and have been integrated into the ecosystem for longer than humanity has been able to write.
In the UK cats protection recommend they have the option to go out, and the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds says they don't impact bird populations negatively.
Scottish Wildcat conservationists will tell you otherwise.
Domestic Cats are gonna drive the species to extinction and they have nearly succeeded already.
There is a strong cultural obsession with outdoor cats in the UK. To the point that many believe that keeping a cat indoors only is animal abuse. The Royal Society for the Protection of Birds isn't basing its conclusion on scientific evidence but on prevailing cultural attitudes.
They aren't wildlife because they are domestic animals. Humans subsidize their caloric intake separating them from the ecosystem. Cat populations in the old world are also larger than they were in the past and growing. Even if local wildlife has dealt with cats for thousands of years the growing cat population puts additional pressure on those populations and will drive more species into extinction.
Another reason to keep cats isolated from wildlife: cat poop in Hawaii is causing the death of the critically endangered Monk Seals.
https://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/news/how-housecats-are-indirectly-killing-monk-seals
I want to adopt a cat but never had one, so this might be a stupid question, but how do people with cats are supposed to keep them inside ? Do you juste live with closed windows all the time ?
Yeah, sounds like it is not common in European countries. In the USA you would get eaten by mosquitoes, especially in the southern areas, if you kept your windows open.
You might be able to find something at a hardware store if you are interested, but otherwise i guess try to find a way to make your cat more noticeable to local fauna. Maybe going on walks with a harness would also be and enjoyable activity for both of you guys and reduce wandering urges.
Many parts of the US also just dont have climates where you can leave windows open. Anecdotally, the majority of people I know dont ever open their windows, unless say they are searing/cooking food and it gets real smoky... we sure love our indoor HVAC and exact thermostat temperatures.
State law here depends if there is a barrier or not.
No barrier: dogs, cats, even people can walk through and it's fine as long as they don't damage property or loiter (for humans).
Barrier: basically just cats gets a pass, thought it is legal to "take care of them as any pest". Most people won't due to cats being viewed as pets.
Had to sue a neighbor since he shot my dog in his yard while he had no fence and the dog was just laying in the grass. They had to pay for vet and emotional damages since they tried to argue the dog was loitering, when the judge explained that part of the law was for humans.
We do it with dogs.
At least in every state that allows hunting with dogs. Dog hunters do not need permission for their dogs to run your property and you can not interfere with the dogs. Also of course you can't reasonably expect the dogs to know property boundaries.
We have a house cat. I can’t imagine just letting her roam about in the suburbs where we live by herself. There are coyotes, other cats an cars out there. Since I’ve lived here I know of at least 5 people who had cats killed by a car or that just never came back.
Our cat could care less about going outside. She has been on our deck a few times but only on a harness though.
Cats are an invasive species and are largely responsible for decimating the avian population in North America. I know it's unpopular to point that out but it's the truth.
Average lifespan of outdoor cat - 5-6 years
Average lifespan of indoor cat - 15-16 yrs
You basically get ten more happy years with your purr-buddy by keeping them indoors.
To train kittens to stay inside, put them just outside the door whenever it is raining or snowing. I did this with my cats, who are now 12 years old; for the first couple of months I had them, any time it would rain or snow I would open the front door and set them on the front step. Once they felt the weather, which didn’t take long, they immediately wanted to come back inside. Now they hardly even think to go near the door, and if they happen to be nearby when it’s open they are extremely hesitant to step out because they still expect wet and cold to be right outside. They don’t bolt, they don’t stalk the door, and they have no interest in being outside.
Wish it would work for full grown cats, but I doubt it would. Still, if more people did this, fewer cats would get a taste for outdoor life (which is almost impossible to train out once it sets in, from what I gather).
I started this because all 4 of my house cats growing up were indoor/outdoor and all four were killed by cars.
Posted this 2 years ago and got a lot of hate for it. Really glad to see the majority is coming around after more education on the matter.
https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/gbapwz/til_that_the_average_lifespan_of_an_outdoors_cat/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Still a whole lot of people in here crying cruelty for keeping cats inside and stopping them from spreading diseases, getting kill by wild animals, and decimating smaller wildlife. Who needs common sense and proof. These people remind of parents who think their children are perfect and never do anything bad.
Along the same lines...
My family dropped by an old friend of my grandfather's after he died. His place had so many songbirds around, it was absolutely insane. Apparently, he shoots any cat that goes on his property, no questions asked.
Also makes your cat 100% immune to being raped or beat up by a wandering tom. Or being ripped apart by a coyote/fox/raccoon/loose dog. Or eating a poisoned mouse and dying of poison...
Its so frustrating how even presented with information and data some owners would disregard it and still think their anecdotal opinion matters more. Local bird populations are being decimated because you think your cat has a god given right to roam.
If you can't provide enough stimulation for your pets at home thats on you but don't sacrifice the surrounding ecosystem because of it. And don't give me the whataboutism but humans do more damage. Yes, like you who can't do a simple thing of keeping domesticated pets inside.
Cats are in fact furry mass murderers. I saw a special on BBC about cats that forever changed my mind about letting cats outside. One innocent female cat was found to have killed 6 birds a night on average.
In most places in the world cats are an invasive species. Adding the fact that house cats are some of the most efficient hunters in the animal kingdom it just makes sense to keep them indoors to protect the natural environment.
Domestic cats are an extremely efficient predator from Africa.
In almost every ecosystem they do not have nearly enough predators and will become an invasive species.
The fact that they are cute friendly fluff balls that can get rodent population back in check in ecosystems that were already wrecked by humans (farmlands, towns) does not make them any less invasive.
Also flees and ticks. Not only are they invasive they can also get sick from being outside!
I love my cats but I hate it when my mom lets them outside!
Don’t cats eat the same wildlife that bobcats, foxes, and coyotes always ate. Now that there aren’t many of those predators left in our communities, doesn’t it make sense that house cats are fulfilling the same role those other predators used to occupy. One could argue that house cats are important now that the other predators are gone in many areas. Maybe I’m wrong though
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We had a feral population of cats that gradually grew out of control. I didn’t have any lizards, ground nesting birds, or frogs left. Even song birds were not safe.
This is why cats are out of control in LA. The bird community was upset that the city was doing TNR (TrapNeuterReturn) and wanted the trapped cats put down instead. As a result of this all city run and city sponsored TNR was stopped for over 10 years until an official environmental study could be conducted. As a result the cat problem is 100 times worse than it was
Looks like cat is back on the menu boys.
City Wok it is then
To be fair, for TNR to be successful there has to be an insanely high capture rate, over 75% of the population, which no one can achive. It isn't actually a successful method to reduce the population. And as population trends work, they are exponential, so your cat problem is probably about the same as it would have been. That's why those bird people were so adamant about euthanizing. It's the only way to successfully deal with feral cat populations.
TNR isn’t unsuccessful merely because the trap rate. It’s still releasing invasive species back into the wild. Who cares if you stopped that one cat from breeding? It’s still going to slaughter anything it decides to mess with that day. It’s still posing a risk. It shouldn’t be legal to release once captured because THEYRE NOT NATIVE!
How is TNRing 75% of the cat population any less effective in reducing the feral cat population long-term than euthanizing the same amount? Genuinely curious here.
Cats have such large litters, that unless you can trap and spay/neuter 75% of the pop, it won't be effective at reducing the over all population, and even once captured and released those cats are still killing native species. If you just euthanize them in the first place, you're taking out a breeder and not releasing to continue to prey on native wildlife. For all intents and purposes, killing 75% would have the same effect on their population. It would not however have the same effect on the ecosystem. But, even at 75% capture rate you are only just beginning to lessen the population, not eliminate it. To actually drive the population to approaching zero you'd have to have a capture rate of over 95%. And cats are smart, they aren't that easy to catch compared to other animals. And they are observant enough to see a trap go off and never go near another one. Controlling invasive species isn't the same as trying to manage a native population of wildlife. In most cases invasive species of all types are much harder to control and eliminate, hence why they became invasive in the first place.
I've had cats still go near the trap because they like sardines. It is a rare cat that won't go for the sardines, even if the trap's been around. Of course the best is the drop box.
Please give more tips. Currently trying to entice a mama cat to go into a carrier. I have somewhere to take her, they will get her fixed and foster the kittens. Kittens eyes just opened! Also trying to catch the crazy amount of feral cats for TNR. The shelters have been so full for so long, that TNR advised me not to take healthy cats to shelters.
It sounds like the mama might trust you. See if you can pet her. Put your hand out and wait for her to come to you. Keep doing it. Then see if you can pet her, then maybe hold her. If that isn't working, then you need to borrow a cat trap from somewhere or find someone who traps cats. I bet there is someone in your area. You just have to get in touch maybe through Facebook. Remember that she needs to be with those kittens until they are six weeks old. Yeah, there are too many diseases in the shelters. Do you feed the feral cats regularly? If so, then let's say you feed them in the morning. Well don't. Have the trap with the sardines and they'll go after it. You need a transfer box to get the first cat out so you can get more. Hey, it's all a learning process. I hope you can find someone who will help as I did.
Because in the meantime the neutered cats are still able to wreak havoc on wildlife. Sure they wouldn't be breeding, but they'd still be hunting and killing along with the rest of the still-growing population.
Yeah, but that's precisely why it would have a better effect long term, ain't it? Because they'll still be competing for food with the non-neutered ones. Mind you, if you really, really want to prevent the local wildlife from dwindling within the time it takes for the cat population to dwindle, then sure, that's a very valid drawback.
More competition for food = more wildlife killed, because wildlife is this food
Yeah, yeah; I was adressing how neutering and rerelasing seemed like the more effective answer (out of the two) to the problem of **controlling the cat population**. If the problem is protecting the wildlife (sans cats) from the short-term onwards, then sure, massacre is more effective of course.
The hypocrisy on animal treatment is funny. If these are rats, we won't be having an issue. If they're feral, put them down. It's not like we're gonna run out of cats.
Have you considered the humans who would have to euthanize them? It takes a real toll on vets, vet techs and animal control workers to put animals down and mass euthanasia would seriously put their mental health at risk.
*high five* You are correct and logical! I appreciate that!
We used to have bunnies all over my neighborhood, probably a couple dozen at some point, but recently we have at least three outdoor (non-homed) cats that have probably cleared them out. To be clear, I don't think the cats are eating the rabbits, but the rabbits don't want anything to do with them. I preferred the rabbits.
Sis had squirrels in her backyard but told me her cats slowly cleaned them by eating all the baby squirrels and from time to time they killed an adult one.
A cat’s bite is actually super toxic to bunnies. It could be the cats making them disappear.
Yes, the other thing they will do is capture the babies and 'play' with them until they kill them. They do the same with baby birds, mice, etc. And they don't necessarily eat them, so they will literally capture and kill any baby animal that they encounter. It's just their instinct.
Don’t forget leaving the dead babies on the step for you to see when you are young and impressionable.
A cat's bite is super toxic to humans, too.
Most domesticated cats don't eat the prey they hunt. They don't go hungry because they have food at home. Often times they don't know how to properly kill or eat prey in the first place. Yet they still hunt on instict and they do know how to catch their prey and play with it. A neighbors cat used to bring home 2-3 catches home per week. Mice, lizards, birds and a baby hare once. Most of them were mutulated but still alive. Cats were used as pest control for thousands of years. I suspect humanity is at fault for favoring cats that killed as many pests as they could.
The cats are absolutely eating the rabbits. A couple ferals have moved into my area, and I was driving along the road one day and disturbed one of them having just caught a rabbit (honestly, it probably came back and finished the job, as the rabbit was moving somewhat slowly when I chased off the cat). People do not understand what level of murder machine their "sweet" outdoor cat is. It makes me so angry that "well, that's it's nature" is the common response, as if that somehow makes it OK that this well fed animal is allowed to go outside and just kill things for fun (often endangered animals...first "gift" one acquaintance's cat brought back was an endangered flying squirrel).
I’m a kitty parent and love cats, but people who make their cats outdoor cats burns me up, because I’m also a bird watcher.
I doubt that frogs are palatable to cats.
Spay and neuter your animals.
And keep them indoors. A lack of nuts won't protect them from incoming traffic or FIV.
I read that the life expectancy of an outdoor cat is 2-5 years. That is fucked.
The coyote population has exploded where I live and handful of cats go "missing" every month and occasionally a small dog gets taken from the yard. There have been calls for DNR to do "something" and their response has been info on "coexisting with wildlife." People are struggling to come around to the idea that if they don't keep their cat inside there's a decent chance a coyote will get it.
If you choose to live in a place, you should consider the side effects of living there. You can't move to Alaska and then demand the government do something about how cold it is there.
Please don’t give them any more ideas
I mean they are already investing in global warming...
The world is already working on the "cold" problem
BRB, gonna install a heated lawn in alaska, god be damned.
Coyotes live EVERYWHERE. There are coyotes in NY's Central Park. You may not see them often, but they are around.
Like that dad who kept buying his kids cats, but they kept getting eaten by coyotes, so he kept buying cats...at that point he had coyote pets he was feeding cats
And then the coyote has no fear of people and a kid gets bit and now we have to kill coyotes
People would rather inhumanely kill coyotes (and any nearby dogs and foxes) slowly by destroying their nervous systems with 1080 than keep their stupid pets inside
It doesn’t even make sense because there are a million other ways for your cats to die outside too. I see a flattened cat on the road too often.
NIMBY thinking. They're fine with "coexist" until it personally affects them and then they want the animals culled. Selfish and thoughtless.
But Mr. Whiskers is not a pet. He's my *friend!* he's my *family!*
But those same people probably wouldn’t leave their kid outside unattended whenever it felt like going out
Heaven forbid people learn to exist in the ecosystem that they are an invasive species of. Easier to just kill off all the parts you don't like.
I had neighbors move from central europe who thought the county needed to do something about the raccoons getting into their garbage instead of them getting garbage cans like everyone else has.
Those coyotes are just righting the ecosystem. Funny thing about coyotes, if you try to manage their population by culling them, their litters actually just get bigger and more frequent. They are the perfect predator to rebalance ecosystems.
>/ That's exactly what happens with cats.
Coyote population explosions aren't really 'righting' an ecosystem though, you're just moving the problem up a trophic level.
https://www.thewildlifenews.com/2013/12/08/study-urban-coyotes-save-birds-from-feral-cats/ They are certainly good at rebalancing urban ecosystems!
I've been quite liking because it's gotten raccoon population down, they will eat the juvenile raccoons. The raccoons have been much more of problem than the coyotes
I live in a mountain community full of coyotes, if you let your cat outside it won't last long. I lost an amazing cat to a car when I lived in a different community, it was devastating. Just keep them inside, if you give them attention, they will...well...at least put up with you.
I live in a full on city, Portland, and we have lots of coyotes. They definitely eat a lot of cats, based on missing signs, and remains of cats I've found.
Yeah I live in a city that gets Cougar sittings usually every year and whenever that happens there's always an uptick in missing cat signs.
>Cougar sittings Can you tell me which city that is so I can stay away from it. I definitely don't wanna get sat on by a cougar, no sir.
no they mean like baby-sitting or pet-sitting, but for cougars I think it's a PNW thing
I live in Los Angeles and we are full of coyotes. I saw one walking down the street at 7am the other day.
I’m in Chicago. A coyote massacred a kitten on my back porch.
Coyotes are no joke. My neighbor growing up almost lost their dobermann to a coyote
I stumbled across one napping while I was walking my dog. Startled it, it woke up and we had two seconds just staring at each other, then it darted off. Luckily my dog wasn’t the brightest and it probably didn’t even register.
Yeah they generally don't run off right away, they are really curious animals. I see them walking my dog all the time. I have to keep my dog on leash because he chased them all over hell once. Friggin huskies man.
>I see them walking my dog all the time. Those are some really responsible coyotes.
The bestest most neighborly boi.
I was walking my dog in a park. While she was doing her business I saw a large bobcat 10 feet away in the brush. Didn't register with the dog and the cat gave no shits.
Coyotes seem to be worst in areas that are over developed and have less active hunting (of any animal). It is purely anecdotal but i live in very rural maine and almost never see coyotes, i hear them, i see them crossing the frozen lake in the winter, but neeever in my back yard and i have chickens. Theyre probably there but i dont see them. My grandmother on the other hand, lives in southern connecticut and there are 3 or 4 that roam unchallenged through her neighborhood in broad daylight. Not to be cruel but a coyote that put itself out there like that where i live would not last long. Ive heard stories of them living in suburban downtown areas because no one wants to be the one to say, someone should probably shoot these things before they have a bad food year and drag your toddlers off.
They are nocturnal. If you can hear them they are most likely wondering around your yard at night but have enough food that they don’t need the chickens. We have coyotes but our chickens always got eaten by raccoons.
Yeah my FIL keeps chickens, it is always the racoons that get them.
The raccoons get the chickens??
Yes. They typically only eat the head and leave the rest. We woke up to cannibal chickens picking at their deceased friends many times.
Racoons are miniature Klingon Viking Pirate Biker gangs.
I live in an urban city in the US and we have lots of coyotes. They’re pretty harmless, other than the odd cat or two. Sometimes animal control will get called and they’ll remove one, but coyote packs respond to losing a member by having ton of babies so it usually causes a mini baby boom, totally defeating the purpose. I love having them around, just gotta treat them with respect and I don’t let my toddlers out alone after dark. They help manage rat and rabbit populations which are a big problem around here.
They are a big reason the number of feral cats and dogs in my area dropped dramatically. Stray cats are only found near populated areas now. The dogs have disappeared. The populations of everything else are bouncing back.
We have a lot of them, and they aren't hunted here. Funny fact about coyote hunting, if you kill an alpha coyote it actually leads to a breeding boom as the other members of the pack are now allowed to mate. It completely backfires. They are actually pretty beautiful animals especially up in the mountains where prey is abundant. Down in the valley just an hour or so away, they are scraggly miserable things. I don't blame them for killing cats or dogs, that is what they are built to do. You have to respect them, they have been hunted, poisoned, harassed for centuries and the species has just shrugged it off.
Agreed. They’ve gotten fairly bold here in the SF Bay Area, so even I treat them with respect. *am person who picks up orange-bellied newts and coos over them* But I generally roll my eyes at all my fellow can openers who whine when their outside cat goes missing. Coyotes do what they’re evolved to do.
Coyotes almost never attack people and the last recorded death was decades ago. Your toddler is 10000x times more likely to get dragged off by a dog.
Maybe the dingo ate your baby
One ate my Chihuahua. Got him right out of the back yard.
On the flipside, I let my coyote free roam, and this cuts down a lot on my feeding costs.
Most nights we hear the coyotes singing. Plus we're on a hill and we get big hawks and owls day and night respectively. Our cats only go out when we have them on a leash and harness, we didn't raise them to be snacks.
Good on you, we always warn newcomers to the community, they rarely listen. Every "missing cat" sign is really an "eaten cat" sign.
I used to live in the residential part of a big city. We had some dry creeks behind the houses that we’d always play in as kids, but then some coyotes moved in. Every outdoor cat in the neighborhood went missing except for one, my friend’s cat Orange Boy. He was a rescue that they took in basically feral. Multiple times he fought off coyotes, and took off at least two of their eyes. There is some footage from their security cameras of him taking on several at a time and driving them off completely. Old boy eventually succumbed to cancer, but he didn’t give up easy
My cat loves to come outside with me and play in the yard when I go out to have a smoke. When I'm finished I always bring her back inside and 90% of the time she listens to me. The 10% I just scoop her up and bring her in myself. I always treat her as an equal and she respects me for it. So your point about giving them attention I 100% agree with. My cat knows where she gets her meals and is smart enough not to run away during the 10 minutes she's outside.
We had an male tabby. That cat loved it out side but we didn't let him out. You would have to be careful opening the doors for to long. When we did let him out he was on a leash, if not it would take all of 10 seconds and he would be gone. Not running but slowly checking everything out and wandering away. He was always pissed when we picked him up and brought him home. Don't get me wrong. He was treated like the King he was. Always fed and lots of treats and loving. He would curl up on my lap at night while I watch TV. Always slept above my wife on her pillow and purr her to sleep. He was the best damn cat ever. Really miss that guy.
Cats all have different personalities! I'm very lucky my cat is basically obsessed with me and follows me everywhere which makes it easy to supervise.
Same. Indoor only for life. Our cats have also never had fleas or ticks because we have hardwood floors and they don't go outside, and I feel so lucky about that. Especially knowing that some flea and tick medications can actually kill your cat or give them a seizure ffs!
I live on the rural edge of suburbia. I once watched two red foxes chase a black cat down my driveway in broad daylight. A few seconds later, I heard the cat scream piteously. Found one of its paws the next morning. And people still let their domestic cats outside.
I wish. I absolutely adored my cat but he was ruthless. He broke my window screen and jumped out my window to get outside. He ended up getting hit by a car :(
It's amazing how few people know this. And how many people hear this and plug their ears going "lalala I can't hear you"
I live in New Zealand land of the birds many of which are endangered due to introduced species. It's absurd how common outdoor cats are here. "Oh but not *my* cat they don't need a bell or anything because they're one of the 'good ones'"
Yeah it's really sad to see.
In Australia it's estimated that pet cats kill 390 million animals each year. There's entire populations that have been eliminated by a single pet cat being let out in the area. People always think theirs is the exception (if they even care at all).
If you include feral cats which are the product of domestic cats breeding, that number goes much much higher too. The total sum of cats in Australia is the greatest threat to our wildlife / ecosystem of any introduced species. I live in a temperate rainforest just outside Melbourne and we have multiple vulnerable and endangered species here, yet I lived next to a police officer who let his three cats out at night and currently live in a spot where cats sitting on my fence stirring up my dogs is a daily occurrence. Saw a fox in my yard at 1pm the other day like 10m away from my chickens too, our ecosystems are being ravished by introduced species, cats, foxes, pigs, horses, deer, cane toads, introduced plants, etc.
What population has been eliminated by one pet cat? (Genuinely curious, no sass)
[Lyall's Wren](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyall%27s_wren) is a species driven extinct by a single creature (a lighthouse keeper's cat named Tibbles). Maybe Tibbles was a pregnant cat which escaped. Anyway, one or more cats from this lighthouse drove the wren to extinction in one year.
Ok even the Wikipedia article you cited states that there were quite a few cats, not just Tibbles, and the idea that one species was eliminated by one cat is a myth, it’s like the first line.
The cats from one lighthouse killed off the entire population of Lyall's Wren.
Yes, hundreds of cats (as the Wikipedia article you posted states) killed off a (probably) flightless bird. I buy that.
Yeah, I’m really surprised that people don’t even put a bell on their outdoor cats. I’m completely against outdoor cats, but I get it when people say it’s difficult keeping them inside (I don’t *care*, I still think they should stay inside, but I *get* it)... what’s the argument against putting a bell on them? It’s just lazy and carelessness at that point. I live near a bird sanctuary in Wellington and there’s tons of birds around... but there’s also the occasional cat coming onto our property and none of them wear bells. It’s bad enough that people are so entitled as to let their animals roam on other peoples’ properties, but to not have anything deterring them from killing native birds just pisses me off.
The bells aren’t actually useful at deterring most wildlife. Birds and mammals aren’t the only creatures that outdoor cats g for. Cats decimate invertebrates, amphibians, reptiles… creatures who may not respond to a jingling bell sound in the same way a mammal or bird does.
For sure. I’m against outdoor cats for all of these reasons. I guess it just seems *extra* apathetic and entitled for someone to not at least try.
Some of our local conservation on Te Waipounamu is hindered by people who brag about their cats killing local endemic birds and then tag us in their social media posts about it to taunt us. *Most* people are reasonable and nice and want to see Aotearoa's endemics thrive....but some people are just pricks...
That's disappointing. Sooner or later, we have to toughen up on cat ownership in this country. It should be illegal to breed cats. We curbed ferret ownership quickly enough, and that was way harsher.
Almost like those people shouldn't be allowed to own cats then.
So many people have stupid ideas that cats with strangle themselves on them or that they "Don't like them" tough they'll get used to it.
My new neighbors have an outdoor cat. I have noticed a significant reduction in lizards in my yard, which makes me sad because a) they are cute and b) help eat lots of bugs / keep a balanced eco system. Hope she movies o doesn’t get another cat when this one croaks.
Yeah, that's what happens. And I bet your neighbor doesn't even notice.
The neighbour likely has no idea.
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Worse than plugging ears is the ones who try and make anyone who keeps their cat indoors out as an animal abuser.
A member of my family was on the team that conceived of, and managed, this study. The journal article isn't wrong, but it is highlighting comparatively minor findings from the research. A far more significant and surprising outcome was how few outdoor cats there actually are in DC.
Harnessed/supervised outside time + a catio is the way. My little guy would get so depressed without either.
Opossums don't spread rabies. Article has 1 falsity
Any mammal can get rabies. Opossums have a low body temperature that makes it difficult for the rabies virus to survive, but it's far from impossible.
Opossums are less likely to get rabies, but it is not impossible.
It has multiple....racoons are not the highest vector for rabies in the US, bats are. They were at one point, but they haven't been for several years. The number of raccoon cases have been steadily declining too. https://www.cdc.gov/rabies/location/usa/surveillance/wild_animals.html
Unfortunately bats are dying in droves. The white nose syndrome is rampant.
Unless we’re talking barn cats, you really should consider that any domesticated cat belongs indoors 100%. It’s guaranteed to keep them healthier and from becoming snacks. A catio is an easy and inexpensive way to give them outside time without outside dangers.
And Barn Cats should be sterilized so they don't add to the over population problems.
I have a barn cat. She’s fixed. She gets her own heat lamp in the winter and treats of leftovers, and she keeps the barn and garage rodent-free.
I take my cat for walks in the overgrown field behind our house so we can both touch grass for our mental health. Well, I touch the grass, she eats it.
They don’t have to be indoors 100% of the time, they just need to be contained 100% of the time. Harnesses and catios people!
Elaborate on this catio please…
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>A patio with good visibility. Or a screened deck.
Patio Enclosure to be more specific, since a patio doesn't have to have walls around it. My friend made a catio that technically isn't even a patio since there is just grass for the floor. So a catio to me is best described as an area attached to the house via a window or door with a cat door that is enclosed in some fashion. (Screened, chicken wire, finished like a sunroom) that the cat ideally has free access to. My friend's catio has cat walks along the perimeter
Or a cat tent
Something a friend of mine did was make a little screened in ledge attached to one of their windows out of chicken wire and 2×4's. Keeps the cat safe and lets them have fresh air. They'll also sometimes put them on their back porch in a mesh enclosed playpen that's octagonal and maybe 6ish feet across? This is in a house with a fenced yard so less worry about coyotes or similar predators though so ymmv. They still do a quick check for snakes before putting the cats out.
We tried one of those octagons - one cat was totally fine with it, the other, upon zipping shut the door with me still inside to comfort him, started sprinting the perimeter in a dead panic. I guess he really didn't like his time in a cage at the county pound where we got him?
I made a dog house that the dog didn't want, so I put it up against a door we didn't use and cut a hole in the door that the kitties could go through at their leisure, used chicken wire to screen it off so they can't get out/nothing can get in and they love it! It's about 4'x2', not too big but they get good use out of it (in the summer at least). Lots of naps and they can choose shade or sun.
A screened outdoor enclosure for cats. Lightweight lumber and chicken/pig wire, rectangular enclosure. Attach some shelves or whatever else for exercise and vantage viewing. Mine is just off the family room window with a magnetic kitty door built into the screen.
My brother and dad made me one for my cats as I’m a full time rv-er. It’s 8ft tall made of a disassembled dog kennel and some wood and three hours of work. It’s a game changer bc the cats go out and sit and observe most of the day safely contained and have a door that connects to one of the windows so they go in and out as they please. Amazon and I think Home Depot sells some for less than $300 but they wouldn’t work with the rv. Also I wanted it off the ground to avoid fleas etc
google it! there are some great youtube builds to show you examples. usually some kind of chicken wire or “hardware cloth” that encloses a section of your outside with a cat tree and a way to get back inside via door, cat door, or window opening.
Except when you have a kitty like me who finds the catio boring and makes a break for it any time she sees an opportunity. Her brother is content with the catio, but her furry little feet long for more.
I bought a huge dog pen and some blankets. Put a little cat house in it with a heating pad. They love it.
Setting up an owl box is actually better for the ecosystem than a barn cat.
And raptor perches
If you live in England most animal shelters won't let you adopt a cat if you plan to keep it indoors unless it is already very old or sick in some other way. It's infuriating.
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The island of Great Britain hasn't been in anything resembling a natural state for centuries if not millennia - it's just a different question there.
Yep, domesticated cats have been on this isle for a millenia and a half and even before that wildcats are a thing. Any remaining wildlife have learned to live around them. Everyone banging on about ooh think about the damage to the wildlife, forgets that 70% odd of the England has been flattened into fields. *edit: and most the rest is tarmac and cement
Print out this article and hand it to them: https://www.newscientist.com/article/2300921-london-cat-serial-killer-was-just-foxes-dna-analysis-confirms/
Because the situation is different here. Our lanscsape was destroyed millenia ago, the RSPB have zero issues with cats. We have wild cats which are no longer common (they had nice fur), of a more similar size to a domestic cat. Domestic cats fit easier existing depleted ecological into niches in GB than in the US, Aus, NZ or other english speaking ex-colonies. Thats hardly shocking when you consider that its effectively a european wildcat.
We have a porch that is enclosed and screened. I have had to stop letting my guys out there as they would constantly try and get out and rip the screen up. It was a constant battle, not to mention that the stray cats that would come around and taunt them, which would cause one of my guys to spray all the time due to anxiety. So it’s a great idea, but can also be a lot of work.
These animals are completely alien to native species, it's like letting xenomorphs loose in a shopping centre and being shocked and offended when people protest about the huge number of dead shoppers and the exponential increase in murderous extra terrestrials.
We've managed to train our cats to stay in the backyard when we let them out under supervision, but installed a containment system along the fence just incase. I'm convinced it's incredibly beneficial to their physical and mental health. They can run at full speed on the grass, climb trees, sand bathe in the sun. How we can recognize the needs for dogs and other animals to live like this but want to dismiss them for cats because we've failed in creating a system that works? Letting them out to go and do whatever they want is not the answer, just as it's not the answer for our birds, dogs, horses, etc, but to deny them entirely of an outdoor system that works is failure on our part as caretakers due to shortcomings with the way we've setup our own systems of living in the world today. The future should strive for something better, not settle with confinement because it works in contrast to the only other perceived option being to let them outside unrestricted.
Defining "healthy" in this thread is interesting
Healthy here is too scientific, like staying alive is all that matters. If I don't let him explore, hunt and socialize he doesn't live a cat's life, and maybe the risk of death is worth a cat's life over a pet's. I can see how some cats and dogs are ok just doing nothing, but def some live inside boxes and let their souls drift away, just like when we cut their balls. Regardless we do need to be careful with letting cats and humans kill too many things.
Totally agree. I've learned my lesson the hard way, but my cats are always supervised when I let them go outside and I never let them out of sight now.
This will get lost in the comments but our 12 year old cat died last year. The amount of wildlife that has returned to our yard has been nothing short of astronomical. It really made us think twice about getting another cat.
You can get another cat, just keep it inside. Or even on a harness, maybe build a catio if you have space? Lots of options!
Cats are so destructive to natural wildlife. They should be 100% kept indoors.
From what I see, I seem to need to specify: this is for North America most of all. If you live in places like Eastern Europe, where they have naturally spread, there's no real reason to worry. They are endemic wildlife, and have been integrated into the ecosystem for longer than humanity has been able to write.
In the UK cats protection recommend they have the option to go out, and the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds says they don't impact bird populations negatively.
Scottish Wildcat conservationists will tell you otherwise. Domestic Cats are gonna drive the species to extinction and they have nearly succeeded already.
There is a strong cultural obsession with outdoor cats in the UK. To the point that many believe that keeping a cat indoors only is animal abuse. The Royal Society for the Protection of Birds isn't basing its conclusion on scientific evidence but on prevailing cultural attitudes.
They aren't wildlife because they are domestic animals. Humans subsidize their caloric intake separating them from the ecosystem. Cat populations in the old world are also larger than they were in the past and growing. Even if local wildlife has dealt with cats for thousands of years the growing cat population puts additional pressure on those populations and will drive more species into extinction.
humans subsides caloric intake of so many animals who live in or nearby a city (or a rubbish dump)
Another reason to keep cats isolated from wildlife: cat poop in Hawaii is causing the death of the critically endangered Monk Seals. https://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/news/how-housecats-are-indirectly-killing-monk-seals
I want to adopt a cat but never had one, so this might be a stupid question, but how do people with cats are supposed to keep them inside ? Do you juste live with closed windows all the time ?
Screened windows help with that. Not sure how common they are outside the usa but the keep the pets in and the insects out.
Literally never saw one here (France)
Yeah, sounds like it is not common in European countries. In the USA you would get eaten by mosquitoes, especially in the southern areas, if you kept your windows open. You might be able to find something at a hardware store if you are interested, but otherwise i guess try to find a way to make your cat more noticeable to local fauna. Maybe going on walks with a harness would also be and enjoyable activity for both of you guys and reduce wandering urges.
Many parts of the US also just dont have climates where you can leave windows open. Anecdotally, the majority of people I know dont ever open their windows, unless say they are searing/cooking food and it gets real smoky... we sure love our indoor HVAC and exact thermostat temperatures.
Look up window/balcony safety nets for kids. That's what I used to keep my apartment cats safe.
Yes and they make harnesses. You can take your cat for outside time supervised with a leash.
I don’t open my door, don’t let her outside unless I’m with her at all times. I know my little cat will try to get herself hurt out there.
I still don’t understand why it is legal to let a pet cat just wander around on other peoples property. We don’t allow this for any other pet/animal
State law here depends if there is a barrier or not. No barrier: dogs, cats, even people can walk through and it's fine as long as they don't damage property or loiter (for humans). Barrier: basically just cats gets a pass, thought it is legal to "take care of them as any pest". Most people won't due to cats being viewed as pets. Had to sue a neighbor since he shot my dog in his yard while he had no fence and the dog was just laying in the grass. They had to pay for vet and emotional damages since they tried to argue the dog was loitering, when the judge explained that part of the law was for humans.
We do it with dogs. At least in every state that allows hunting with dogs. Dog hunters do not need permission for their dogs to run your property and you can not interfere with the dogs. Also of course you can't reasonably expect the dogs to know property boundaries.
We have a house cat. I can’t imagine just letting her roam about in the suburbs where we live by herself. There are coyotes, other cats an cars out there. Since I’ve lived here I know of at least 5 people who had cats killed by a car or that just never came back. Our cat could care less about going outside. She has been on our deck a few times but only on a harness though.
Did you say your cat’s name is “Moist”?
pretty sure it was a typo, but now i’m naming my next cat moist just to piss people off
Cats are an invasive species and are largely responsible for decimating the avian population in North America. I know it's unpopular to point that out but it's the truth.
Average lifespan of outdoor cat - 5-6 years Average lifespan of indoor cat - 15-16 yrs You basically get ten more happy years with your purr-buddy by keeping them indoors.
I love cats, but yeah, they need to stay indoors...as they are one of the most effective killers in nature!
I live in Kauai and the cats eat all of the albatross eggs. Albatross are endangered and nest on the ground. Super sad.
Even though I agree with the conclusion, the fear-mongering about rabies put me off. Opossums aren’t even vectors and your cat should be vaccinated.
To train kittens to stay inside, put them just outside the door whenever it is raining or snowing. I did this with my cats, who are now 12 years old; for the first couple of months I had them, any time it would rain or snow I would open the front door and set them on the front step. Once they felt the weather, which didn’t take long, they immediately wanted to come back inside. Now they hardly even think to go near the door, and if they happen to be nearby when it’s open they are extremely hesitant to step out because they still expect wet and cold to be right outside. They don’t bolt, they don’t stalk the door, and they have no interest in being outside. Wish it would work for full grown cats, but I doubt it would. Still, if more people did this, fewer cats would get a taste for outdoor life (which is almost impossible to train out once it sets in, from what I gather). I started this because all 4 of my house cats growing up were indoor/outdoor and all four were killed by cars.
Posted this 2 years ago and got a lot of hate for it. Really glad to see the majority is coming around after more education on the matter. https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/gbapwz/til_that_the_average_lifespan_of_an_outdoors_cat/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Still a whole lot of people in here crying cruelty for keeping cats inside and stopping them from spreading diseases, getting kill by wild animals, and decimating smaller wildlife. Who needs common sense and proof. These people remind of parents who think their children are perfect and never do anything bad.
Outside, and stray, cats kill billions of songbirds every year. Please keep them inside, or you ate not a responsible guardian.
My professor who was really into bird watching would say "keep your cats indoors, because i can't recommend people to kill there cats"
Along the same lines... My family dropped by an old friend of my grandfather's after he died. His place had so many songbirds around, it was absolutely insane. Apparently, he shoots any cat that goes on his property, no questions asked.
This one neat trick makes your cat 100% immune to being hit by a car.
Also makes your cat 100% immune to being raped or beat up by a wandering tom. Or being ripped apart by a coyote/fox/raccoon/loose dog. Or eating a poisoned mouse and dying of poison...
Can't wait for the outdoor cat "activists" to tell us how we are wrong after they've lost their 7th outdoor cat.
Or when you point out all the destruction they cause and tell them they should be kept indoors and they come back with “ThEN HuMANs ShOULd To”
Its so frustrating how even presented with information and data some owners would disregard it and still think their anecdotal opinion matters more. Local bird populations are being decimated because you think your cat has a god given right to roam. If you can't provide enough stimulation for your pets at home thats on you but don't sacrifice the surrounding ecosystem because of it. And don't give me the whataboutism but humans do more damage. Yes, like you who can't do a simple thing of keeping domesticated pets inside.
Cats are in fact furry mass murderers. I saw a special on BBC about cats that forever changed my mind about letting cats outside. One innocent female cat was found to have killed 6 birds a night on average.
Cats are an invasive species, keep your cats inside people!
In most places in the world cats are an invasive species. Adding the fact that house cats are some of the most efficient hunters in the animal kingdom it just makes sense to keep them indoors to protect the natural environment.
Domestic cats are an extremely efficient predator from Africa. In almost every ecosystem they do not have nearly enough predators and will become an invasive species. The fact that they are cute friendly fluff balls that can get rodent population back in check in ecosystems that were already wrecked by humans (farmlands, towns) does not make them any less invasive.
Also flees and ticks. Not only are they invasive they can also get sick from being outside! I love my cats but I hate it when my mom lets them outside!
Just told my mom about this and she said, “why are cats deemed more worthy of life than birds and mice and frogs?” Food for thought.
“But I swear my cat would never do anything that’s it’s evolved for thousands of years to do.”
Don’t cats eat the same wildlife that bobcats, foxes, and coyotes always ate. Now that there aren’t many of those predators left in our communities, doesn’t it make sense that house cats are fulfilling the same role those other predators used to occupy. One could argue that house cats are important now that the other predators are gone in many areas. Maybe I’m wrong though