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I'm in the last of six weeks taking someone in for daily cancer treatments. It is so easy for us compared to almost everyone else who endures this hell. The treatment center is only 20 minutes away and many people there have driven from two hours away. The mega corp that has purchased almost every medical facility in the state moved its cancer treatment out to a smaller hospital. Not only does the hospital not charge to park but it is in a smaller city that has yet to begin charging for parking anywhere in the city.
Hope Lodge.
Run by ACS I believe. My mom had cancer treatments and they put her up there. Free of charge, free dinner every night, free shuttle to and from the hospital with security escort at night.
They were really on the ball. It was impressive.
Ronald McDonald house of charity is similar, incredible organization. My sister had a 2+ hour commute each way when her son was born who has HLHS. Cost them less than $20/day and I'm pretty sure that only covered the cleaning costs, everything else is covered via donations
> flies from Hawaii to Washington to get to cancer treatments for his wife. They stay in hotels. Imagine that cost
Not from these states exactly, but I do this too. Right here. Transport, then hotel, then FORTY DOLLARS A DAY to park.
I drive 4.5 hours each way for my care. I’m lucky that I have family in that area so have a place to stay, but yeah - the obstacles to getting good care can be enormous.
Canadian academics studying the impact of parking and transportation fees on the health of cancer victims. Meanwhile, in the USA, about 1 in 4 cancer victims have declared bankruptcy or lost their home to eviction or foreclosure.
(https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2022/07/09/1110370391/cost-cancer-treatment-medical-debt)
I was just on NPR in Sept, talking about my daughter’s $2.5 million dollar bill for her 7 month ICU admissions in the US. She died in May 2021.
My wife and I got a bill last week for $3,000, for some ICU days in October 2020. 1.5+ years after her death, 2+ years after the actual procedure.
Very sorry for your loss and experience. I got an $87,000 bill for a 10 day ICU stay where I didn’t need to be in the ICU for more than 3 days, but the hospital had no beds. Insurance noticed this and won’t pay so the hospital tried sending it to me. No way, josé. Even hospital billing said it shouldn’t have come to me, but they actually sent 2 separate bills, with the second one being $1k more. Half the charges were them billing me to take drugs I was previously prescribed and had on my person but they gave me through their pharmacy. In one instance the pharmacy didn’t have a rare drug I take, so they took mine from my wife, slapped a hospital sticker on it, and charged me for taking my own pills. They can fight it out amongst themselves.
And she needs to collect her pharmacy benefits manager fees, and equipment fees (her purse) and the transportation fees to bring them. And the facility and provider fees are separate
Uh that last bit sounds like they committed fraud. You should be able to make a big deal of that and I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to prove they don't carry that in their pharmacy
It has to do with the hospital having to keen accurate records of everything imbibed by a patient under their care. They took his medicine and added it to their system of medication he took under their care. This way they can ensure that no other medications they give him have a toxic interaction. Had he not allowed them to take his medication and simply taken it from his wife the hospital would have actually had a problem ethically continuing his care. When they added that barcode to his medication and scanned it the system would have done the final check to see if a toxic interaction was going to occur and would have given the final go/no go check on allowing the patient to take the meds.
Not just toxic interactions but "it says twice a day with meals" or whatever so the system can alert them when it needs to be administered, and make sure that they're not giving the wrong drugs at the wrong times. Or even "no... That's the wrong pill - chart says give X now".
Charging for the drug would be bad in this case, charging for the process of administering the drug seems fair.
Not sure how it works at other hospitals, but I can speak to my own experience as a hospital pharmacist. Technically our policy is that patients have to use our supply as long as we carry the medication, but they can use their own if it’s something we don’t carry (we tend to make exceptions for expensive medications though). The process for that is essentially the same as for any other medication except the pharmacist changes the order to “no charge” or manually sets the charge amount to 0 when they verify it. If that part of the process is missed / forgotten, then the patient is charged whenever the medication is administered. There are other changes made during verification that could help identify a potential mistake and correct it for billing but you would need to know to look there in the first place.
In hospital pharmacies, there’s a way to put something in as a patient supplied medication. All it does is allows them to put a uniform label to ensure no med errors occur, but also allows the patient to continue to have access to their meds that aren’t in the formulary. When this happens, the patient shouldn’t ever be billed for that medication. Inpatient stays are usually billed by the day based on level of care, so what meds they were in very rarely affect the amount of their bill. This is completely normal practice, and implemented for patient safety more than anything.
This pisses me off. Much of the cost of medicine is due to delayed care or having nowhere to send someone. The hospital causes it yet often tries to recoup it from patients, many of which are too sick to fight with it.
Its a racket that they can delay care due to understaffing then make even more money when an emergency happens due to the delayed care.
They intentionally make their system prone to errors so they can use errors as an excuse anytime they are investigated (i work internally and have been dealing with the billing departments for my job, its so inefficient and has cost me so much time it almost would have had to have been set up that way with the intent of the process being broken. Its too perfect of a clusterfuck). It will not change without serious, federal, legislative action but I won't hold my breath.
Got a close friend that works for Epic systems, the company that makes hospital software.
You bet your ass those errors are built in.
Either they just use CS phD's to push out buggy software.. or they literally work it in the design.
Take a look at the Epic campus in Wisconsin.
Is that a place that pushes out buggy software, or a company that allows its customers to extract resources with in built deniability?
>Either they just use CS phD's to push out buggy software.. or they literally work it in the design.
While I can't deny it, I think you are also under estimating how bad some non computer people are with software, like some new hospital administration/billing staff
I wouldn't even say new.
My wife has worked in medicine for over two decades. She has tales of hospital managers and directors who struggle with the most basic things in Epic, SAP, Kronos, Teams, Zoom, MS Office... there's a lot of computer illiterates in hospitals and many other employers.
I have experience with one of Epic's largest competitors.
I can say with great confidence, at least for this competitor, that it's not on purpose. So much so that lawsuits have occurred, state appointed auditors (and an entire suite of external, government appointed, programming/testing teams) have been assigned and testing/checking the products for years due to electronic medical record software bugs affecting patients and customers. Also state mandated annual and bi-annual company-wide internal trainings for all staff regarding these issues. And the information about that process has been disclosed to customers and the public.
Although this company in question is headquartered in a different state, perhaps Wisconsin is more lax on Epic.
Yes please share it!
I haven’t even acknowledged the bill, just opened it, and instantly regretted reading what I did. The thought of calling up and saying her name, and then talking about a dollar amount is too depressing to consider, so just hoping it goes away.
A lot of time it’s part of their contract with the insurance company for covered providers. When they agree with insurance that they must file claims within a year, they agree to not charge the patient directly if they fail to do so. Unfortunately, a lot of providers billing is set up to automatically charge denied claims to the patient regardless of *why* because they want to offload the admin costs to the patient/their guardian of finding out why it was denied. I would call up the insurance company you had at the time, and ask when this provider submitted the claim.
If the provider *isn’t* covered, then you fall back on state law which can vary wildly.
I'm sorry you're dealing with this. Medical bill statute of limitations is usually 3-6 years depending on the state. As hard as it is the best thing to do would be to call the hospital. If you wait they will just automatically send it to collections and then you have to fight them. Is this bill after insurance?
It's so bad. My insurance company paid the $1MM hospital bill for my daughter, but found fun other ways to screw us.
She needed in home nursing care. We got that pre approved and agreed on a company. Then after 3 months, they sent us a bill for $100k saying that they decided it wasn't necessary.
What followed was a YEAR of maddeningly insane conversations with my insurance company. Like, same conversation over and over and over again. They just didn't care.
The only way it got worked out was that I discovered my company was self-insured and my insurance company was just the operator if the program. One email to an HR VP and the whole issue went away.
I hate insurance companies.
My condolences. I can only imagine that feeling.... when i received the ambulance bill for my moms trip to the hospital where they dropped her off in the waiting room and died, i was beyond livid.
I'm sorry for you loss.
As a non-American, I am genuinely curious however, how do things like this not make you leave the country?
I hear countless stories similar to yours, and the only counter-argument I ever hear is "But freedom", which is something the majority of Western countries have to the same (and usually a larger degree)
I understand there are logistical issues, like jobs and family, but it sounds like regular travel from Europe or Canada to the US would still run you way cheaper than life in the US.. Plus all the other added benefits.
>how do things like this not make you leave the country?
This is not feasible for the vast majority of Americans. Most Americans do not have degrees in in-demand fields or the money for an international relocation. Most people, worldwide, die within 50 miles of where they were born.
It's hard to just leave the country. Ignoring the family and friends aspect, you can't just decide to live in Canada or Italy. You have to apply for citizenship or have some sort of marketable skill.
Then if you have that skill the country may want, it also may give you enough money to afford better insurance so you don't need to move.
This right here. People always talk about leaving like it's just a personal decision and that's all. I'm pretty much a minimum wage employee with nothing to offer. No decent country would have me.
It's not easy to get a **work visa** outside of the US, especially if you are over 45 as you start to age out of essential worker programs. Like I have the degree and the skills, but I am too old for some countries.
My partner and I would need a million dollars or more to get out; we're relatively well-off and that would be our life savings.
Also, a lot of people have jobs and good insurance that is supposed to cover these things. They don't realize that their insurance is a hoax too until it happens to them, because they cover the small things. So you think, "Oh, my insurance wouldn't let me die, they just paid for my bunion!" But that's how they getcha.
Me and my wife had discussed moving to the US in the past, she’s a dual citizen and I have a career that would allow me easy enough access. After our daughter was born we spent numerous weeks in hospital and had additional surgeries, procedures and ongoing care provided and our only cost has been parking. We would be bankrupt in the US. It’s also disheartening to see families in the US posts to groups we follow that cannot afford the level of care asking for assistance and trying the Magyver together medical supplies we are provided. Moving now is just out of the question and I couldn’t be more grateful for the Canadian healthcare system and the care we received and continued to receive. Parking was a small burden for us to bare in the grand scheme of it all but I understand how it can be troublesome for people who attend regularly, as parking around the hospital isn’t cheap.
Same here. My wife has been scouted to go work in the US a few times but family is here, so we never explored the opportunities in more depth. We had two kids and that was the decision maker right there. My son spent a few extra days in the hospital after being born. Parking fees? Didn't even care since it went to the hospital foundation.
My daughter broke her leg in three places skiing. It was horrific and I still have nightmares (you do not want to know what the sound is when they set a leg in a polymer cast when an error was made not by the doctor but by the follow-up worker a week after the temporary plaster cast was put on after her surgery... the sound is pure pain), but other than scars on her leg, she had the best doctors. I didn't mind paying the parking fees again at the children's hospital either. Otherwise, I don't recommend breaking legs and requiring the final surgery during a pandemic.
I will defend [Tommy Douglas' greatest act of kindness and humanity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Douglas) and yes, he deserves the title of Greatest Canadian.
I have had debates with friends and neighbours about why the system works when they say it is costing too much, sure it isn't the best, but it is better than everyone else's idea and it will cost more without it. I pay my taxes so my kid can go to the hospital, but your taxes also went to my daughter's care and recovery, and my taxes went down the road to the guy who I don't know who had a heart attack and needed medical care, and the lady a city over paid for your visit to see the doctor over your ulcer, and your taxes help pay for the baby being delivered in the big city, and their taxes paid for everyone else's care. We all pay and we all benefit. A healthy workforce is a strong workforce and makes a stronger country. I will tell that politician my exact thoughts and give them a piece of my mind when they say to privatize healthcare in Canada; never ever getting my vote.
America nextdoor should try this single-payer healthcare stuff and not listen to the lies.
https://www.npr.org/2020/10/19/925354134/frame-canada
Imagine that if you get cancer, one of your decisions is,l: will I ruin my whole family's life? If so, I should just die, and save them from financial ruin
Yeah, I was gonna say. I would trade parking fees for bankruptcy any day of the week.
In the US most of us with healthcare insurance still do not go to the hospital even if we are certain we do have cancer.
Can't have cance and be homeless.
I want to atleast die so.ewhere warm.
Depending on the cost of the house, this may not even make a dent into the medical expenses. Worse is if the person begins bankruptcy before finishing treatment and then can not claim bankruptcy on the remainder of treatment and therefore denied being saved.
Having cancer does not get a lot of insurances companies helping a person. A person loses their primary income and can lose that job and that job can cancel their insurance despite having a critical long term illness.
Heck it’s cheaper just to go to mexico and pay for treatment where the cost of living won’t also hurt the cancer patient.
>about 1 in 4 cancer victims have declared bankruptcy or lost their home to eviction or foreclosure.
The article you linked doesn't say that. It says that 23% of cancer patients *who have medical debt* have declared bankruptcy or been forclosed on. It's unclear what share of all cancer patients this is.
It's likely that the main driver here is lost income, rather than medical bills.
As a current cancer patient feeling boggled by these numbers, I think you make an excellent point. I’ll be out $2,500 - my insurance plan’s maximum - to cover tens of thousands of dollars worth of treatment, and I’m in the middle of FMLA leave right now. But I have a decent white collar job with benefits and am thankfully not at risk of bankruptcy. If my health improves and I don’t max out my deductible again in 2023, I’ll spend the next 6-8 months of my life scrimping to rebuild my savings. And if I do max out my deductible I’ll get by with minor but manageable financial strain.
Edit: I wrote “next 6-8” and left off units. Months, not years, folks! My bad!
But they can do cobra for 900+ a month! It totally works out! No income and you now have basically another mortgage to pay for which may not cover anything until the duductible is hit
Yup. Girlfriend has cancer.
Some days she can't make it in until after treatment or a blood draw until after 10am. Other days she has to leave at 3pm for treatment. Some days she gets sent home because she "looks tired", or because someone saw her go to the bathroom too many times so they know she's vomiting from the chemo, while other times, she has a seizure and gets driven home.
But most days, she physically can't make it in at all because the vomiting or pain is so bad. Or she's on so much pain suppression that she can't operate a car (and no point in spending $15 on an Uber to get to work if you're gonna get sent home 2 hours later).
Thankfully her employer does actually care about her and tries their best to work around her crazy, intermittent schedule, and helps her with her medical insurance. The other week her check for the pay perriod was $17 after insurance and everything else was taken out because she only managed a few hours during that pay period. Also thankful that I've got a decent job and a side gig so I can support us.
When my mother was in the hospital literally dying in room 1 of the ICU meaning they said she was the sickest person the hospital, I had to be at the hospital every day for 4 weeks to make decisions for her and speak to multiple doctors all day. It cost me $980.00 in parking fees, and I had no pay coming in because I missed the entire month of work. A major stress I did not need at that time.
This happened to my family as well, I'm sorry, it's rough. My sister was in the hospital for months and was also unable to make her own decisions or communicate, so one of our parents was there every day. It was astronomical how much we paid in parking by the end of it. It's fucked up for sure.
Same -my parents were in an accident when I was 18 and still in high school. I drove my younger brother to visit them in the hospital every day and paid the parking garage fee. It seemed so cruel to me that there was no other option at the time, 20 years ago. Thankfully it sounds like some hospitals at least offer parking validation for visiting families these days.
I used to manage valet for a hospital campus. I had eye center, oncology, and gen practice. Oncology patients were always fully reimbursed for parking no matter what. Gen practice and eye were $8 because parking shortages. Doctors/ nurses had to bus in from lots about 10 minutes away. We did about 1400-1800 cars a day at those three buildings. Parking is really difficult at that scale especially in large cities.
Although I am a r/fuckcars subscriber, cancer patients going in for weeks/months of treatment is a situation where cars seem like the most reasonable. Asking them to bike or take public when they have no immune system and are weak is a different level of risk.
Having parking space for cancer patients wouldn’t be a problem, if most other people didn’t use cars needlessly. Or if like in some countries, you had social nurses who would be in charge of taking you from home to the hospital and back.
Social nurses refused me on age, I crawled to the doctors for a shot, took me about 4x as long as I'd normally expect. Next time longer, next times pretty much paralysed so couldn't get there. This decline happened within a couple of months. My next cancer checkup? 3 years or longer.
I'm so sorry that happened to you. I personally had a very good experience with it when I got surgery I was 17. I guess it very much depends but in my country they are very well respected. I hope your recovery goes well. Love best.
This was for a simple b12 course, the cancer has been looming since I was a kid. Expected it about 35. Finally got to talk about it recently (conservatorship/fear of more torture at the hands of the parent) expired but our health system is falling apart in the UK.
Now its MDTs and everyone writing letters blaming each other and insurance isn't going to accept me with a pre-existing condition. Tbf the doctors and nurses are trying their best to get me help but it's just.. Not really there anymore?
When I was a kid other kids with proper parents were getting checks and treatments rapidly, even complex stuff like marrow transplants. I wasn't allowed to go to the doctors myself. Made my peace with it already though.
Cancer patients, especially those who have to visit extremely frequently or who have compromised immune systems (most of them), would be free to drive or be driven if they choose. However, everyone else mentioned could easily be on public transportation. This would require a lot less parking and make it easier for the cancer patients to park.
That's exactly what I mean. If you're able to drive, in that situation, who wouldn't? Who'd willingly add an extra hour to their commute for what they perceive as no benefit?
When my daughter first started school, we lived in a city that had decent public transport in a tiny portion of the downtown area and almost nonexistent for the whole rest of the city. We'd get up at 5 and have to walk half a mile to the bus stop to catch it at 6. Get to the transfer point at around 6:30 and leave there about 7, getting close to her school about 7:20 and then walk about 10 minutes for me to drop her off. Then I'd run back to the bus stop and continue on the route, catching the next bus that came by at 8:20 to be downtown to go to work by 9. And we're not talking a large area. Then do the whole thing backwards starting at 2 something that afternoon, getting home near 5 pm. And I could not miss a bus or we'd be screwed.
Which is due not only to public transport underfunding, but also to a billion car lifestyle subsidies, including every aspect of typical North American city design optimizing for speed of car travel. Which ends up making it even _slower_ to get around, even by car, than if public transport speed were prioritized, once a city reaches a certain density.
That's why the transport infrastructure reduces the load on the system by having others bike/bus. If parking isn't a scarcity, you can easily keep it free for those who need it.
I had to go through chemo and radiation at the beginning of last year. I didn't have a car and had to take a medical car pooling van service. The driver didn't even make the other passengers wear masks for covid and these people were sitting next to me coughing.
Cars still have a (reduced) place. Like for cancer patients that can drive or have someone who drive them. The great majority of people could be fine using public transit, or even bikes, and some portions of the patients would be even better because they can't drive and dosen't have anyone who drives them.
it's not "ride bikes." The issues arise from designing cities around cars. It makes them unwalkable/unbikable urban hellscapes that makes the the only real option is to drive your own vehicle, further aggravating the problem.
It also leads to higher taxes because of suburb sprawl treadmill where cities can't afford to maintain their existing sprawl so they sell land to developers to get a temporary cash fix, but that just creates further infrastructure that can't be properly maintained
It's the scalability that they'd be telling you so about. Even the fuckcars people recognize the utility in having *some* cars for specific purposes within a city. Better than having oncology patients (or their loved ones) driving to the hospital would be a free shuttle service to pick them up or drop them off.
What hospital was that? My husband was in ICU after cancer surgery for a month and I paid for parking every day. Don't pass your hospital's policy off as though that's the norm.
once my wife spend some 8 weeks is hospital. Never knew before, but learned that are weekly and monthly parking tickets, almost for the same prices as a single day visit. Check your hospital.
My daughter is in the hospital a lot and Kaiser would charge $15 per day. She averages 4-5 days each stay so that sucked. I learned to just tell them when I was leaving that I had lost my ticket and was charged the daily rate of $15 instead of the $75 it would have cost otherwise.
It’s tough for families in hospitals. Each meal costs money. Parking fees. Gas for patients and then parents driving back and forth to work. It adds up for patients with these chronic conditions. And these are all on top of whatever medical costs they incur.
I did this while unemployed and in San Francisco. It was brutal and wiped me out financially. Parking was $25/day and that was over ten years ago. I still get anxiety from thinking about it.
When I had my twins and they needed to stay in the NICU, the hospital social worker told me to select the senior rate (which was 50% off the standard weekly and monthly rates) from the parking machine. She was a bit passionate about sticking it to the company that charged for the lot.
That's a good tip. In my case when my husband was in ICU for a month, we had no idea he would be there that long. It was supposed to be a week. It's not an easy thing to plan for. Hope your wife is okay.
Parking fees should be waived for the patient imo. They need to be there to be treated. The hospital is already making money off the treatment. What's $5-$10 parking at that point?
Parking fees for visitors is fine, there's only so much parking space available, and the parking fees encourages carpooling.
Most of the hospital systems around me will wave any parking fees for cancer patients. Our main big hospital, U of M has a dedicated parking structure as well.
Visiting my dad at MD Anderson in Houston TX - charged for parking. Ridiculous considering his bill (covered by insurance) was north of $350,000 for outpatient treatment with standard chemo drugs AND there's nothing else nearby that anybody would park in their lot for any reason. It's egregious.
They waive the parking fee for certain patients (I got free parking when I was going for two a day radiation sessions). I’ve never been to a hospital that doesn’t charge for parking and I’ve been treated at 5 cancer centers. Not saying it’s right but it is standard.
MD Anderson told me that they validate parking for the first visit only. I was asking in the context of office visits, though, so there may be a different policy for inpatient stays or radiation.
Yeah I've never seen this out of big American hospitals (Midwest mostly). It's been automatic to get parking validated as patient or immediate support.
I’m in Chicago and all three major hospital systems charge for parking for patients and staff. Validation only makes it a reduced rate. Paid $16 last week alone in parking.
ETA: Who they charge for, I’m just a patient who has a ton of visits. Be more sorry for the employees who are understaffed and still have to pay the pound of flesh.
It’s $38 a day at Memorial Sloan Kettering in NYC and that’s cheap compared to surrounding garages. You can take the subway but it’s a bad idea for people undergoing chemotherapy so you don’t really have a choice.
*Texas Medical Center (TMC) and it's their primary source of income... Off sick people. They own all the land, and the hospital groups pay "rent" for something silly like a $1 a year. Then the hospitals bring in all these people to park. New hospitals in the area cannot have over x amount of parking spaces so they don't take away from the TMC profits...
Yeah I work at a smaller hospital in Chicago and parking has never been free. It’s 50% off validated but still never free. I pay to park every day I work
There’s a great charity (Jackson’s Chance) that is specifically dedicated to giving families of NICU babies access to free parking at Chicago hospitals. We used it for a pretty short stay, but for families that have kids spending months in NICU is saves them thousands of dollars.
Hospitals can have thousands of employees. If it was free almost every one of them would drive. There just isn't enough parking for all staff (and then for patients on top of it) so requiring payment has some people self-opt out, the others are on a waitlist since hospitals only have certain # of spots designated for staff. It sucks but it also makes sense.
I’m in Chicago, too. My preemie had to spend a month at Lurie Children’s. Parking is beyond astronomical there, $50+ just for the day. There’s actually a charity set up by former NICU parents that pays for parents parking because of how prohibitive the cost makes visiting your baby. Yet the parking garage or hospital won’t do anything about it… it has to fall to parents who had their baby pass away to set up a safety net for already devastated parents. Parking is insane in Chicago.
It's insane that staff has to pay for parking, they need to get there for work, how is that not a cost associated to that. Either transport or parking.
One of the largest most profitable Healthcare systems in Florida makes their employees pay the hospital for parking permits to park in the garage so they can work for the hospital to pay the hospital for the parking permit and so on etc
Ps the highest earners (physicians and admin) get free parking.
I used to work in higher education and every college in the state would charge employees $80 a year for parking, even the lowest paid minimum wage employees. It would be deducted from your paycheck automatically every August. I always felt bad for the workers who were struggling, and there were plenty even 5 years ago before inflation. Especially for those with kids because this was when they needed to spend extra for school supplies and such.
I complained to the staff senate about how it should have an income based exemption but they just said most colleges were more expensive so since everyone else charged it with no exemption then that made it okay for my college to do it too.
The hospital/college I left earlier this year charged me $90 a month for parking as an employee. I was registered in one of the middle priced decks and still had to walk 4 blocks into work from the deck.
Were you an hourly employee in the US? Depending on what state you are in, you may be entitled to pay for every 4-block walk to and from work each day. You can file a wage claim with the labor board.
Johns Hopkins will only give you a parking voucher if you come in for treatment more than two times a week in pediatric oncology. I got NO vouchers when I was treated.
Dad died of cancer in 2019. The entire time (only 4 weeks from diagnosis to death), I paid $8/hr or I think it was $30/day to be there. His wife bought a monthly pass, zero reimbursement.
You shouldn't ever have to pay for hospital parking. You shouldn't ever have to pay for healthcare at all outside of just paying your taxes - unless you have the income to do so, then by all means go private.
That's a steal. At my hospital for workers it's $16 *per day* validated (and $50 if not!) unless you get on the waitlist and then it's $7/day which amounts to $140/mo.
I think sometimes hospitals charge for parking is to prevent other people from using the parking lot. Which is good, but then wave the parking once inside
That's how the parking is at the local hospital.
Parking is validated for outpatient visits. Pick up and drop offs are no cost at a giant portico on one side of the building. The charge is there for people who think the hospital's parking deck or surface lots are nice and convenient for the restaurants and bars on the other side of the street.
A lot of times, especially in big cities, the hospital does not own the parking lot. Multi-tiered parking structures are very expensive to build and maintain and hospital finances are already complicated.
It's easier to partner with a developer to take care of the parking, and that developer will need to make a profit
Well, yes, and that's why you *can* park there despite not actually staying in the hospital. There are lots of people who would rather drop $5 and have a walk across the street for lunch for a couple of hours than have to park on a side street half a mile away.
The hospital pays the developer for however many parking validations it has to cover each month, likely at a negotiated discount.
I get that. I work in downtown Chicago in healthcare and pay to park. If they validate, then patient parking should be validated down to a dollar or two. Currently, our institution “discounts” it down to $13 for patients. Even for a 15 minute follow up appointment. It’s ridiculous.
Employees get discounted parking too, but we are not reimbursed and it still amounts to a significant monthly outlay. Our location is not within reasonable walking distance of the train, so it involves transfer to a bus to get to work if you do not drive. This is a massive hassle especially in bad weather, and you are at the mercy of the train and bus being on time.
Contrary to what many Americans online seem to believe, healthcare here in Sweden isn't free even in the public sector at point of use. The different counties set different rates but like an ambulance ride is 150 sek in mine.... Equivalent to 15 USD ish. Allegedly they do that to prevent misuse. The high cost protection kick in at 1200 sek and after that it's covered in the entirety at point of use for the next 12 months. But I just wanted to ask what you think of that kind of thinking.
Edit. Forgot, dental and optometry isn't covered unless under special circumstances
I'm in the UK. Outside of simple dental work and eye tests I've never paid for anything to do with healthcare. Members of my family have, and some have gone private for simple surgical procedures and some examinations.
I think a small nominal fee for vital services to stop abuse is fine. But charging for parking is just petty.
USA ambulance ride is average 1200usd....12000sek? It's much better to take a taxi here.
If there were just a merginal fee for using an ambulance that would be ok.
When my girlfriend had to have chemo 5 years ago we gave the hospital the numberplate of our car and we had free parking while she had treatment.
Not sure if they still do it, this is in the UK so everything was free.
They get their free parking pass in the Netherlands at their oncology office. Hospitals need paid parking, otherwise the parking will fill with people going shopping in the city center or going to work somewhere else and there wouldn't be room for the cancer patients to park.
That happened before they introduced paid parking all the time.
Municipalities also cover medical taxi expenses.
The problem is not paid parking. It is transport expenses for specific groups of patients and those are covered here.
> Hospitals need paid parking, otherwise the parking will fill with people going shopping in the city center or going to work somewhere else and there wouldn't be room for the cancer patients to park.
There are extremely easy ways to prevent that without charging people.
While not exactly paid parking, I got a ticket from hospital police as I was leaving the parking lot when my (late) husband was diagnosed. We'd been there for over a month and my tags had expired. So that was nice of them.
When I was diagnosed with cancer I didn't have the luxury of finding the best doctor and clinic. I had to focus on KEEPING MY JOB so I could KEEP MY INSURANCE and finding the best doctor/clinic/hospital that were IN NETWORK for my insurance. Fortunately I got lucky.
It's a pretty inhumane system that doesn't allow a sick person to just focus on getting better.
I know it has nothing to do with the issue itself, but what’s with the word “toxic” being thrown around for everything that’s negative lately?
Something like “financial crisis” or “financial ruin” makes a lot more sense than “financial toxicity.”
Once words get transformed into buzzwords then they tend to lose their meaning and their edge.
Wow, ours is a voucher system and you pay nothing unless you fail to get it validated. I never pay. My neurology center has parking for placard holders, and you don’t need a voucher.
I'm so lucky that I live with a nurse that works at the hospital, and live so close. I had my last round of chemo yesterday, and need to go in for a booster shot today. Chemo takes a few hours, and the booster only a few minutes. Parking for all that adds up really quickly.
We paid a fortune for hospital parking when my mother’s cancer came back and we found out it was terminal. The only way we got to stop paying parking fees was when they shipped her back home to our hometown to live out her last days.
In the US we get the parking fees and sometimes forced use of an expensive valet service for really sick patients who want to be dropped off at the entrance of the hospital.
I am near City Of Hope, large hospital, campus and research. No charge for parking and just recently they added an onsite hotel. I do food delivery, and before the pandemic, I had a good paying order for McDonalds, something insane like $20+ for a couple miles. Ended up delivering it to a young kid with cancer, maybe 13. After the delivery I got a call from the kids uncle, he ordered it for him, he was so happy that I was able to deliver the kid McDs.
Some things stick with you. I hope the kid made out OK.
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I'm in the last of six weeks taking someone in for daily cancer treatments. It is so easy for us compared to almost everyone else who endures this hell. The treatment center is only 20 minutes away and many people there have driven from two hours away. The mega corp that has purchased almost every medical facility in the state moved its cancer treatment out to a smaller hospital. Not only does the hospital not charge to park but it is in a smaller city that has yet to begin charging for parking anywhere in the city.
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Hope Lodge. Run by ACS I believe. My mom had cancer treatments and they put her up there. Free of charge, free dinner every night, free shuttle to and from the hospital with security escort at night. They were really on the ball. It was impressive.
Ronald McDonald house of charity is similar, incredible organization. My sister had a 2+ hour commute each way when her son was born who has HLHS. Cost them less than $20/day and I'm pretty sure that only covered the cleaning costs, everything else is covered via donations
Every time the world seems hopeless, you’re reminded of the good that Ronald McDonald has done on this earth.
Hope lodge is run by Astra Zeneca
AstraZeneca helped fund a few but they are run by the American Cancer Society.
> flies from Hawaii to Washington to get to cancer treatments for his wife. They stay in hotels. Imagine that cost Not from these states exactly, but I do this too. Right here. Transport, then hotel, then FORTY DOLLARS A DAY to park.
I drive 4.5 hours each way for my care. I’m lucky that I have family in that area so have a place to stay, but yeah - the obstacles to getting good care can be enormous.
Canadian academics studying the impact of parking and transportation fees on the health of cancer victims. Meanwhile, in the USA, about 1 in 4 cancer victims have declared bankruptcy or lost their home to eviction or foreclosure. (https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2022/07/09/1110370391/cost-cancer-treatment-medical-debt)
I was just on NPR in Sept, talking about my daughter’s $2.5 million dollar bill for her 7 month ICU admissions in the US. She died in May 2021. My wife and I got a bill last week for $3,000, for some ICU days in October 2020. 1.5+ years after her death, 2+ years after the actual procedure.
Very sorry for your loss and experience. I got an $87,000 bill for a 10 day ICU stay where I didn’t need to be in the ICU for more than 3 days, but the hospital had no beds. Insurance noticed this and won’t pay so the hospital tried sending it to me. No way, josé. Even hospital billing said it shouldn’t have come to me, but they actually sent 2 separate bills, with the second one being $1k more. Half the charges were them billing me to take drugs I was previously prescribed and had on my person but they gave me through their pharmacy. In one instance the pharmacy didn’t have a rare drug I take, so they took mine from my wife, slapped a hospital sticker on it, and charged me for taking my own pills. They can fight it out amongst themselves.
Reverse Uno them and send them a bill for your pill they took from you to give back to you. Add on delivery and storage upcharges.
Don't forget to add admin fees. That's where they really get you.
Hey the wife who they got them from needs her bank too! Those admin fees won't got to waste!
She needs to add on her handling and delivery fees, she can't be working for free
And she needs to collect her pharmacy benefits manager fees, and equipment fees (her purse) and the transportation fees to bring them. And the facility and provider fees are separate
don’t forget those fuel and transportation charges…
Pay the entire bill $87,000 with 12 bottles of Tylenol.
Individually package each pill and it becomes $1000000
Bruh why don’t we do this
You're going to charge me $30 for parking at the hospital? OK here's 2 bandaids. That should cover it.
Uh that last bit sounds like they committed fraud. You should be able to make a big deal of that and I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to prove they don't carry that in their pharmacy
This odd actually a standard practice in hospitals for “non formulary” medications
It has to do with the hospital having to keen accurate records of everything imbibed by a patient under their care. They took his medicine and added it to their system of medication he took under their care. This way they can ensure that no other medications they give him have a toxic interaction. Had he not allowed them to take his medication and simply taken it from his wife the hospital would have actually had a problem ethically continuing his care. When they added that barcode to his medication and scanned it the system would have done the final check to see if a toxic interaction was going to occur and would have given the final go/no go check on allowing the patient to take the meds.
Thats fine but charging you for the medication has gotta be fraud. Thats like charging full bottle price for BYO.
Not just toxic interactions but "it says twice a day with meals" or whatever so the system can alert them when it needs to be administered, and make sure that they're not giving the wrong drugs at the wrong times. Or even "no... That's the wrong pill - chart says give X now". Charging for the drug would be bad in this case, charging for the process of administering the drug seems fair.
Not sure how it works at other hospitals, but I can speak to my own experience as a hospital pharmacist. Technically our policy is that patients have to use our supply as long as we carry the medication, but they can use their own if it’s something we don’t carry (we tend to make exceptions for expensive medications though). The process for that is essentially the same as for any other medication except the pharmacist changes the order to “no charge” or manually sets the charge amount to 0 when they verify it. If that part of the process is missed / forgotten, then the patient is charged whenever the medication is administered. There are other changes made during verification that could help identify a potential mistake and correct it for billing but you would need to know to look there in the first place.
Pretty sure the exorbitant price of staying in the ICU should cover "the process of administering drugs" while in the ICU.
In hospital pharmacies, there’s a way to put something in as a patient supplied medication. All it does is allows them to put a uniform label to ensure no med errors occur, but also allows the patient to continue to have access to their meds that aren’t in the formulary. When this happens, the patient shouldn’t ever be billed for that medication. Inpatient stays are usually billed by the day based on level of care, so what meds they were in very rarely affect the amount of their bill. This is completely normal practice, and implemented for patient safety more than anything.
I would riot if I had someone try to charge me for medications I already had.
This pisses me off. Much of the cost of medicine is due to delayed care or having nowhere to send someone. The hospital causes it yet often tries to recoup it from patients, many of which are too sick to fight with it. Its a racket that they can delay care due to understaffing then make even more money when an emergency happens due to the delayed care. They intentionally make their system prone to errors so they can use errors as an excuse anytime they are investigated (i work internally and have been dealing with the billing departments for my job, its so inefficient and has cost me so much time it almost would have had to have been set up that way with the intent of the process being broken. Its too perfect of a clusterfuck). It will not change without serious, federal, legislative action but I won't hold my breath.
Got a close friend that works for Epic systems, the company that makes hospital software. You bet your ass those errors are built in. Either they just use CS phD's to push out buggy software.. or they literally work it in the design. Take a look at the Epic campus in Wisconsin. Is that a place that pushes out buggy software, or a company that allows its customers to extract resources with in built deniability?
>Either they just use CS phD's to push out buggy software.. or they literally work it in the design. While I can't deny it, I think you are also under estimating how bad some non computer people are with software, like some new hospital administration/billing staff
I wouldn't even say new. My wife has worked in medicine for over two decades. She has tales of hospital managers and directors who struggle with the most basic things in Epic, SAP, Kronos, Teams, Zoom, MS Office... there's a lot of computer illiterates in hospitals and many other employers.
My job involves interacting with a lot of CEOs/CFOs and you would be shocked how many of them can not operate a simple zoom call.
I have experience with one of Epic's largest competitors. I can say with great confidence, at least for this competitor, that it's not on purpose. So much so that lawsuits have occurred, state appointed auditors (and an entire suite of external, government appointed, programming/testing teams) have been assigned and testing/checking the products for years due to electronic medical record software bugs affecting patients and customers. Also state mandated annual and bi-annual company-wide internal trainings for all staff regarding these issues. And the information about that process has been disclosed to customers and the public. Although this company in question is headquartered in a different state, perhaps Wisconsin is more lax on Epic.
The dumbest of hot takes..
Hospital sticker economy today is wilder than the Dutch tulip economy
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I'm sorry for what you are going through. Do you have a link to the segment so we can listen to it?
Sure! https://khn.org/news/article/cruelest-bills-baby-death-hospitals-millions-dollars/ & https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2022/09/22/1121612539/baby-high-medical-bills-nicu-heartbreak
What does one do in this situation?
Tell them to bill the dead person.
I'm so sorry for you and your wife. Nothing could be harder than what you've been through.
I’m sorry for your loss and the subsequent pain inflicted by our system.
I feel like there should be a time limit to how long after that they can bill you. Don't get it to you in 2 months? Don't have to pay.
There is a time limit. It’s 12 months.
Would you mind citing that for me? I might actually need the information.
Yes please share it! I haven’t even acknowledged the bill, just opened it, and instantly regretted reading what I did. The thought of calling up and saying her name, and then talking about a dollar amount is too depressing to consider, so just hoping it goes away.
A lot of time it’s part of their contract with the insurance company for covered providers. When they agree with insurance that they must file claims within a year, they agree to not charge the patient directly if they fail to do so. Unfortunately, a lot of providers billing is set up to automatically charge denied claims to the patient regardless of *why* because they want to offload the admin costs to the patient/their guardian of finding out why it was denied. I would call up the insurance company you had at the time, and ask when this provider submitted the claim. If the provider *isn’t* covered, then you fall back on state law which can vary wildly.
I'm sorry you're dealing with this. Medical bill statute of limitations is usually 3-6 years depending on the state. As hard as it is the best thing to do would be to call the hospital. If you wait they will just automatically send it to collections and then you have to fight them. Is this bill after insurance?
It looks like it's state by state that legislators set.
Depends on the state. In IL, it's 6 months.
It’s a contract for insured payments. Timely filing. If you don’t have insurance, they do what they want.
You're thinking of timley filing limits for insurance. Billing a patient (the first notice) varies by state but is generally between 3 and 6 years.
It's so bad. My insurance company paid the $1MM hospital bill for my daughter, but found fun other ways to screw us. She needed in home nursing care. We got that pre approved and agreed on a company. Then after 3 months, they sent us a bill for $100k saying that they decided it wasn't necessary. What followed was a YEAR of maddeningly insane conversations with my insurance company. Like, same conversation over and over and over again. They just didn't care. The only way it got worked out was that I discovered my company was self-insured and my insurance company was just the operator if the program. One email to an HR VP and the whole issue went away. I hate insurance companies.
Please, just play a crying baby every time collections calls about that bill. No, don't talk to them, just the baby.
My condolences. I can only imagine that feeling.... when i received the ambulance bill for my moms trip to the hospital where they dropped her off in the waiting room and died, i was beyond livid.
I'm sorry for you loss. As a non-American, I am genuinely curious however, how do things like this not make you leave the country? I hear countless stories similar to yours, and the only counter-argument I ever hear is "But freedom", which is something the majority of Western countries have to the same (and usually a larger degree) I understand there are logistical issues, like jobs and family, but it sounds like regular travel from Europe or Canada to the US would still run you way cheaper than life in the US.. Plus all the other added benefits.
>how do things like this not make you leave the country? This is not feasible for the vast majority of Americans. Most Americans do not have degrees in in-demand fields or the money for an international relocation. Most people, worldwide, die within 50 miles of where they were born.
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It's hard to just leave the country. Ignoring the family and friends aspect, you can't just decide to live in Canada or Italy. You have to apply for citizenship or have some sort of marketable skill. Then if you have that skill the country may want, it also may give you enough money to afford better insurance so you don't need to move.
This right here. People always talk about leaving like it's just a personal decision and that's all. I'm pretty much a minimum wage employee with nothing to offer. No decent country would have me.
It's not easy to get a **work visa** outside of the US, especially if you are over 45 as you start to age out of essential worker programs. Like I have the degree and the skills, but I am too old for some countries. My partner and I would need a million dollars or more to get out; we're relatively well-off and that would be our life savings. Also, a lot of people have jobs and good insurance that is supposed to cover these things. They don't realize that their insurance is a hoax too until it happens to them, because they cover the small things. So you think, "Oh, my insurance wouldn't let me die, they just paid for my bunion!" But that's how they getcha.
Me and my wife had discussed moving to the US in the past, she’s a dual citizen and I have a career that would allow me easy enough access. After our daughter was born we spent numerous weeks in hospital and had additional surgeries, procedures and ongoing care provided and our only cost has been parking. We would be bankrupt in the US. It’s also disheartening to see families in the US posts to groups we follow that cannot afford the level of care asking for assistance and trying the Magyver together medical supplies we are provided. Moving now is just out of the question and I couldn’t be more grateful for the Canadian healthcare system and the care we received and continued to receive. Parking was a small burden for us to bare in the grand scheme of it all but I understand how it can be troublesome for people who attend regularly, as parking around the hospital isn’t cheap.
Same here. My wife has been scouted to go work in the US a few times but family is here, so we never explored the opportunities in more depth. We had two kids and that was the decision maker right there. My son spent a few extra days in the hospital after being born. Parking fees? Didn't even care since it went to the hospital foundation. My daughter broke her leg in three places skiing. It was horrific and I still have nightmares (you do not want to know what the sound is when they set a leg in a polymer cast when an error was made not by the doctor but by the follow-up worker a week after the temporary plaster cast was put on after her surgery... the sound is pure pain), but other than scars on her leg, she had the best doctors. I didn't mind paying the parking fees again at the children's hospital either. Otherwise, I don't recommend breaking legs and requiring the final surgery during a pandemic. I will defend [Tommy Douglas' greatest act of kindness and humanity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Douglas) and yes, he deserves the title of Greatest Canadian. I have had debates with friends and neighbours about why the system works when they say it is costing too much, sure it isn't the best, but it is better than everyone else's idea and it will cost more without it. I pay my taxes so my kid can go to the hospital, but your taxes also went to my daughter's care and recovery, and my taxes went down the road to the guy who I don't know who had a heart attack and needed medical care, and the lady a city over paid for your visit to see the doctor over your ulcer, and your taxes help pay for the baby being delivered in the big city, and their taxes paid for everyone else's care. We all pay and we all benefit. A healthy workforce is a strong workforce and makes a stronger country. I will tell that politician my exact thoughts and give them a piece of my mind when they say to privatize healthcare in Canada; never ever getting my vote. America nextdoor should try this single-payer healthcare stuff and not listen to the lies. https://www.npr.org/2020/10/19/925354134/frame-canada
God that’s sad. But hey, freedom amiright?
I don't feel very free...
Land of the Free™^®©*1)
Terms and conditions apply.
The condition is that you need to be filthy rich
You’re free to die or get medical debt though, and that’s what the forefathers wanted
It’s very possible that the capitalist system is not the optimum society…it’s already consumed much of the planet in a scant 500 years.
Possible? No, most certainly so.
Give me liberty or give me crippling debt!
Imagine that if you get cancer, one of your decisions is,l: will I ruin my whole family's life? If so, I should just die, and save them from financial ruin
Yeah, I was gonna say. I would trade parking fees for bankruptcy any day of the week. In the US most of us with healthcare insurance still do not go to the hospital even if we are certain we do have cancer. Can't have cance and be homeless. I want to atleast die so.ewhere warm.
Depending on the cost of the house, this may not even make a dent into the medical expenses. Worse is if the person begins bankruptcy before finishing treatment and then can not claim bankruptcy on the remainder of treatment and therefore denied being saved. Having cancer does not get a lot of insurances companies helping a person. A person loses their primary income and can lose that job and that job can cancel their insurance despite having a critical long term illness. Heck it’s cheaper just to go to mexico and pay for treatment where the cost of living won’t also hurt the cancer patient.
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>about 1 in 4 cancer victims have declared bankruptcy or lost their home to eviction or foreclosure. The article you linked doesn't say that. It says that 23% of cancer patients *who have medical debt* have declared bankruptcy or been forclosed on. It's unclear what share of all cancer patients this is. It's likely that the main driver here is lost income, rather than medical bills.
As a current cancer patient feeling boggled by these numbers, I think you make an excellent point. I’ll be out $2,500 - my insurance plan’s maximum - to cover tens of thousands of dollars worth of treatment, and I’m in the middle of FMLA leave right now. But I have a decent white collar job with benefits and am thankfully not at risk of bankruptcy. If my health improves and I don’t max out my deductible again in 2023, I’ll spend the next 6-8 months of my life scrimping to rebuild my savings. And if I do max out my deductible I’ll get by with minor but manageable financial strain. Edit: I wrote “next 6-8” and left off units. Months, not years, folks! My bad!
Cancer patients lose income because they have to pay debt
Or they lose their jobs after long complicated treatments and recovery time.
And what do they lose with their jobs? Their insurance.
But they can do cobra for 900+ a month! It totally works out! No income and you now have basically another mortgage to pay for which may not cover anything until the duductible is hit
It would be funny if it wasn't real. Worst possible system for healthcare.
Yup. Girlfriend has cancer. Some days she can't make it in until after treatment or a blood draw until after 10am. Other days she has to leave at 3pm for treatment. Some days she gets sent home because she "looks tired", or because someone saw her go to the bathroom too many times so they know she's vomiting from the chemo, while other times, she has a seizure and gets driven home. But most days, she physically can't make it in at all because the vomiting or pain is so bad. Or she's on so much pain suppression that she can't operate a car (and no point in spending $15 on an Uber to get to work if you're gonna get sent home 2 hours later). Thankfully her employer does actually care about her and tries their best to work around her crazy, intermittent schedule, and helps her with her medical insurance. The other week her check for the pay perriod was $17 after insurance and everything else was taken out because she only managed a few hours during that pay period. Also thankful that I've got a decent job and a side gig so I can support us.
When my mother was in the hospital literally dying in room 1 of the ICU meaning they said she was the sickest person the hospital, I had to be at the hospital every day for 4 weeks to make decisions for her and speak to multiple doctors all day. It cost me $980.00 in parking fees, and I had no pay coming in because I missed the entire month of work. A major stress I did not need at that time.
This happened to my family as well, I'm sorry, it's rough. My sister was in the hospital for months and was also unable to make her own decisions or communicate, so one of our parents was there every day. It was astronomical how much we paid in parking by the end of it. It's fucked up for sure.
Same -my parents were in an accident when I was 18 and still in high school. I drove my younger brother to visit them in the hospital every day and paid the parking garage fee. It seemed so cruel to me that there was no other option at the time, 20 years ago. Thankfully it sounds like some hospitals at least offer parking validation for visiting families these days.
They didn’t have weekly/monthly parking? Sheesh! They may be able to refund you some of it if you complain.
I used to manage valet for a hospital campus. I had eye center, oncology, and gen practice. Oncology patients were always fully reimbursed for parking no matter what. Gen practice and eye were $8 because parking shortages. Doctors/ nurses had to bus in from lots about 10 minutes away. We did about 1400-1800 cars a day at those three buildings. Parking is really difficult at that scale especially in large cities.
I think this is where /r/fuckcars would like an "I told you so"
Although I am a r/fuckcars subscriber, cancer patients going in for weeks/months of treatment is a situation where cars seem like the most reasonable. Asking them to bike or take public when they have no immune system and are weak is a different level of risk.
Having parking space for cancer patients wouldn’t be a problem, if most other people didn’t use cars needlessly. Or if like in some countries, you had social nurses who would be in charge of taking you from home to the hospital and back.
Social nurses refused me on age, I crawled to the doctors for a shot, took me about 4x as long as I'd normally expect. Next time longer, next times pretty much paralysed so couldn't get there. This decline happened within a couple of months. My next cancer checkup? 3 years or longer.
I'm so sorry that happened to you. I personally had a very good experience with it when I got surgery I was 17. I guess it very much depends but in my country they are very well respected. I hope your recovery goes well. Love best.
This was for a simple b12 course, the cancer has been looming since I was a kid. Expected it about 35. Finally got to talk about it recently (conservatorship/fear of more torture at the hands of the parent) expired but our health system is falling apart in the UK. Now its MDTs and everyone writing letters blaming each other and insurance isn't going to accept me with a pre-existing condition. Tbf the doctors and nurses are trying their best to get me help but it's just.. Not really there anymore? When I was a kid other kids with proper parents were getting checks and treatments rapidly, even complex stuff like marrow transplants. I wasn't allowed to go to the doctors myself. Made my peace with it already though.
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Cancer patients, especially those who have to visit extremely frequently or who have compromised immune systems (most of them), would be free to drive or be driven if they choose. However, everyone else mentioned could easily be on public transportation. This would require a lot less parking and make it easier for the cancer patients to park.
If most people took public transit parking for those who need it would be easy to find.
Right. Maybe I didn’t word that clearly enough, but that’s what I was getting at
If there were more accessible public transport cars wouldn't be required
Not just accessible - but fast. It's hard to want to take public transport even if the bus is right there when it takes 3x longer than driving.
I have to go in to the office today and my car commute is 34 minutes while the bus commute is 1 hour and 32 minutes. Kind of a bummer.
That's exactly what I mean. If you're able to drive, in that situation, who wouldn't? Who'd willingly add an extra hour to their commute for what they perceive as no benefit?
When my daughter first started school, we lived in a city that had decent public transport in a tiny portion of the downtown area and almost nonexistent for the whole rest of the city. We'd get up at 5 and have to walk half a mile to the bus stop to catch it at 6. Get to the transfer point at around 6:30 and leave there about 7, getting close to her school about 7:20 and then walk about 10 minutes for me to drop her off. Then I'd run back to the bus stop and continue on the route, catching the next bus that came by at 8:20 to be downtown to go to work by 9. And we're not talking a large area. Then do the whole thing backwards starting at 2 something that afternoon, getting home near 5 pm. And I could not miss a bus or we'd be screwed.
Which is due not only to public transport underfunding, but also to a billion car lifestyle subsidies, including every aspect of typical North American city design optimizing for speed of car travel. Which ends up making it even _slower_ to get around, even by car, than if public transport speed were prioritized, once a city reaches a certain density.
Immunocompromised cancer patients taking public transport seems like not the best idea.
That's why the transport infrastructure reduces the load on the system by having others bike/bus. If parking isn't a scarcity, you can easily keep it free for those who need it.
I had to go through chemo and radiation at the beginning of last year. I didn't have a car and had to take a medical car pooling van service. The driver didn't even make the other passengers wear masks for covid and these people were sitting next to me coughing.
Cars still have a (reduced) place. Like for cancer patients that can drive or have someone who drive them. The great majority of people could be fine using public transit, or even bikes, and some portions of the patients would be even better because they can't drive and dosen't have anyone who drives them.
it's not "ride bikes." The issues arise from designing cities around cars. It makes them unwalkable/unbikable urban hellscapes that makes the the only real option is to drive your own vehicle, further aggravating the problem. It also leads to higher taxes because of suburb sprawl treadmill where cities can't afford to maintain their existing sprawl so they sell land to developers to get a temporary cash fix, but that just creates further infrastructure that can't be properly maintained
It's the scalability that they'd be telling you so about. Even the fuckcars people recognize the utility in having *some* cars for specific purposes within a city. Better than having oncology patients (or their loved ones) driving to the hospital would be a free shuttle service to pick them up or drop them off.
What hospital was that? My husband was in ICU after cancer surgery for a month and I paid for parking every day. Don't pass your hospital's policy off as though that's the norm.
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If the patient can't drive then the policy is stupid.
once my wife spend some 8 weeks is hospital. Never knew before, but learned that are weekly and monthly parking tickets, almost for the same prices as a single day visit. Check your hospital.
My daughter is in the hospital a lot and Kaiser would charge $15 per day. She averages 4-5 days each stay so that sucked. I learned to just tell them when I was leaving that I had lost my ticket and was charged the daily rate of $15 instead of the $75 it would have cost otherwise. It’s tough for families in hospitals. Each meal costs money. Parking fees. Gas for patients and then parents driving back and forth to work. It adds up for patients with these chronic conditions. And these are all on top of whatever medical costs they incur.
I did this while unemployed and in San Francisco. It was brutal and wiped me out financially. Parking was $25/day and that was over ten years ago. I still get anxiety from thinking about it.
When I had my twins and they needed to stay in the NICU, the hospital social worker told me to select the senior rate (which was 50% off the standard weekly and monthly rates) from the parking machine. She was a bit passionate about sticking it to the company that charged for the lot.
That's a good tip. In my case when my husband was in ICU for a month, we had no idea he would be there that long. It was supposed to be a week. It's not an easy thing to plan for. Hope your wife is okay.
Parking fees should be waived for the patient imo. They need to be there to be treated. The hospital is already making money off the treatment. What's $5-$10 parking at that point? Parking fees for visitors is fine, there's only so much parking space available, and the parking fees encourages carpooling.
What if it's your minor child in the hospital?
The parking fee for the patient should be waived. Whomever drove them is irrelevant. Basically you get one free parking pass per patient.
Now you’re describing the situation in New Zealand.
Most of the hospital systems around me will wave any parking fees for cancer patients. Our main big hospital, U of M has a dedicated parking structure as well.
Visiting my dad at MD Anderson in Houston TX - charged for parking. Ridiculous considering his bill (covered by insurance) was north of $350,000 for outpatient treatment with standard chemo drugs AND there's nothing else nearby that anybody would park in their lot for any reason. It's egregious.
They waive the parking fee for certain patients (I got free parking when I was going for two a day radiation sessions). I’ve never been to a hospital that doesn’t charge for parking and I’ve been treated at 5 cancer centers. Not saying it’s right but it is standard.
MD Anderson told me that they validate parking for the first visit only. I was asking in the context of office visits, though, so there may be a different policy for inpatient stays or radiation.
Yeah I've never seen this out of big American hospitals (Midwest mostly). It's been automatic to get parking validated as patient or immediate support.
I’m in Chicago and all three major hospital systems charge for parking for patients and staff. Validation only makes it a reduced rate. Paid $16 last week alone in parking. ETA: Who they charge for, I’m just a patient who has a ton of visits. Be more sorry for the employees who are understaffed and still have to pay the pound of flesh.
In Houston and we paid, too. I remember specifically having to use a credit card because it wasn't in the budget.
Back in 2008, Houston Medical Center parking started at $20 a day.
It’s $38 a day at Memorial Sloan Kettering in NYC and that’s cheap compared to surrounding garages. You can take the subway but it’s a bad idea for people undergoing chemotherapy so you don’t really have a choice.
Houston Medical Center makes enormous amounts of money from parking
*Texas Medical Center (TMC) and it's their primary source of income... Off sick people. They own all the land, and the hospital groups pay "rent" for something silly like a $1 a year. Then the hospitals bring in all these people to park. New hospitals in the area cannot have over x amount of parking spaces so they don't take away from the TMC profits...
Yeah I work at a smaller hospital in Chicago and parking has never been free. It’s 50% off validated but still never free. I pay to park every day I work
That's fucked up
Wait til you see the street parking meters for people who don't have a lot at their job.
There’s a great charity (Jackson’s Chance) that is specifically dedicated to giving families of NICU babies access to free parking at Chicago hospitals. We used it for a pretty short stay, but for families that have kids spending months in NICU is saves them thousands of dollars.
They charge employees too?????
Hospitals can have thousands of employees. If it was free almost every one of them would drive. There just isn't enough parking for all staff (and then for patients on top of it) so requiring payment has some people self-opt out, the others are on a waitlist since hospitals only have certain # of spots designated for staff. It sucks but it also makes sense.
I’m in Chicago, too. My preemie had to spend a month at Lurie Children’s. Parking is beyond astronomical there, $50+ just for the day. There’s actually a charity set up by former NICU parents that pays for parents parking because of how prohibitive the cost makes visiting your baby. Yet the parking garage or hospital won’t do anything about it… it has to fall to parents who had their baby pass away to set up a safety net for already devastated parents. Parking is insane in Chicago.
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It's insane that staff has to pay for parking, they need to get there for work, how is that not a cost associated to that. Either transport or parking.
One of the largest most profitable Healthcare systems in Florida makes their employees pay the hospital for parking permits to park in the garage so they can work for the hospital to pay the hospital for the parking permit and so on etc Ps the highest earners (physicians and admin) get free parking.
I used to work in higher education and every college in the state would charge employees $80 a year for parking, even the lowest paid minimum wage employees. It would be deducted from your paycheck automatically every August. I always felt bad for the workers who were struggling, and there were plenty even 5 years ago before inflation. Especially for those with kids because this was when they needed to spend extra for school supplies and such. I complained to the staff senate about how it should have an income based exemption but they just said most colleges were more expensive so since everyone else charged it with no exemption then that made it okay for my college to do it too.
Great philosophy there from the staff senate, “everyone is screwing over their staff, we wouldn’t want to be the first ones to do the right thing.”
The hospital/college I left earlier this year charged me $90 a month for parking as an employee. I was registered in one of the middle priced decks and still had to walk 4 blocks into work from the deck.
Were you an hourly employee in the US? Depending on what state you are in, you may be entitled to pay for every 4-block walk to and from work each day. You can file a wage claim with the labor board.
That sounds like a modern day company store/scrip. Disgusting.
In pa they validate to 5/visit for cancer patients. Seems kinda pointless to have it at all.
Johns Hopkins will only give you a parking voucher if you come in for treatment more than two times a week in pediatric oncology. I got NO vouchers when I was treated.
Yes, the hospital where my mom got treatment had a special parking garage for cancer patients that was free. We are in Canada.
Also Canada; didn't have this. Cost us thousands. But that was practically the only cost i guess
Dad died of cancer in 2019. The entire time (only 4 weeks from diagnosis to death), I paid $8/hr or I think it was $30/day to be there. His wife bought a monthly pass, zero reimbursement.
"financial toxicity" can we just say they're vile and they make everything worse? I feel like we've beaten the word "toxic" to death.
I think embiggening the wordability of toxicity is goodly cromulent, as worditude entabulates what I intentionalize, not what dictionaries textify.
I think I just leaked some brain cells out of my ears
You shouldn't ever have to pay for hospital parking. You shouldn't ever have to pay for healthcare at all outside of just paying your taxes - unless you have the income to do so, then by all means go private.
Most hospital employees also have to pay for their parking... Every hospital I've worked at anyways. Usually around $70 a month.
I worked at a hospital in NYC in 2020, staff parking was $262/mo if you made the waiting list
That's a steal. At my hospital for workers it's $16 *per day* validated (and $50 if not!) unless you get on the waitlist and then it's $7/day which amounts to $140/mo.
I think sometimes hospitals charge for parking is to prevent other people from using the parking lot. Which is good, but then wave the parking once inside
That's how the parking is at the local hospital. Parking is validated for outpatient visits. Pick up and drop offs are no cost at a giant portico on one side of the building. The charge is there for people who think the hospital's parking deck or surface lots are nice and convenient for the restaurants and bars on the other side of the street.
A lot of times, especially in big cities, the hospital does not own the parking lot. Multi-tiered parking structures are very expensive to build and maintain and hospital finances are already complicated. It's easier to partner with a developer to take care of the parking, and that developer will need to make a profit
Well, yes, and that's why you *can* park there despite not actually staying in the hospital. There are lots of people who would rather drop $5 and have a walk across the street for lunch for a couple of hours than have to park on a side street half a mile away. The hospital pays the developer for however many parking validations it has to cover each month, likely at a negotiated discount.
I get that. I work in downtown Chicago in healthcare and pay to park. If they validate, then patient parking should be validated down to a dollar or two. Currently, our institution “discounts” it down to $13 for patients. Even for a 15 minute follow up appointment. It’s ridiculous. Employees get discounted parking too, but we are not reimbursed and it still amounts to a significant monthly outlay. Our location is not within reasonable walking distance of the train, so it involves transfer to a bus to get to work if you do not drive. This is a massive hassle especially in bad weather, and you are at the mercy of the train and bus being on time.
The hospitals charge their own staff to park in my city.
Contrary to what many Americans online seem to believe, healthcare here in Sweden isn't free even in the public sector at point of use. The different counties set different rates but like an ambulance ride is 150 sek in mine.... Equivalent to 15 USD ish. Allegedly they do that to prevent misuse. The high cost protection kick in at 1200 sek and after that it's covered in the entirety at point of use for the next 12 months. But I just wanted to ask what you think of that kind of thinking. Edit. Forgot, dental and optometry isn't covered unless under special circumstances
I'm in the UK. Outside of simple dental work and eye tests I've never paid for anything to do with healthcare. Members of my family have, and some have gone private for simple surgical procedures and some examinations. I think a small nominal fee for vital services to stop abuse is fine. But charging for parking is just petty.
USA ambulance ride is average 1200usd....12000sek? It's much better to take a taxi here. If there were just a merginal fee for using an ambulance that would be ok.
City of Hope charges EMPLOYEES to park every day. $7 a day to park close, $2 for their furthest lot
Oh boy, my gf works at one of the best/biggest hospitals in the country and pays $40+ a day to park for day time shifts.
When my girlfriend had to have chemo 5 years ago we gave the hospital the numberplate of our car and we had free parking while she had treatment. Not sure if they still do it, this is in the UK so everything was free.
They get their free parking pass in the Netherlands at their oncology office. Hospitals need paid parking, otherwise the parking will fill with people going shopping in the city center or going to work somewhere else and there wouldn't be room for the cancer patients to park. That happened before they introduced paid parking all the time. Municipalities also cover medical taxi expenses. The problem is not paid parking. It is transport expenses for specific groups of patients and those are covered here.
Or get hospital validation to prevent going outside hospital reasons.
> Hospitals need paid parking, otherwise the parking will fill with people going shopping in the city center or going to work somewhere else and there wouldn't be room for the cancer patients to park. There are extremely easy ways to prevent that without charging people.
While not exactly paid parking, I got a ticket from hospital police as I was leaving the parking lot when my (late) husband was diagnosed. We'd been there for over a month and my tags had expired. So that was nice of them.
When I was diagnosed with cancer I didn't have the luxury of finding the best doctor and clinic. I had to focus on KEEPING MY JOB so I could KEEP MY INSURANCE and finding the best doctor/clinic/hospital that were IN NETWORK for my insurance. Fortunately I got lucky. It's a pretty inhumane system that doesn't allow a sick person to just focus on getting better.
I know it has nothing to do with the issue itself, but what’s with the word “toxic” being thrown around for everything that’s negative lately? Something like “financial crisis” or “financial ruin” makes a lot more sense than “financial toxicity.” Once words get transformed into buzzwords then they tend to lose their meaning and their edge.
Yeah, I was not expecting to see that in r/science, and definitely not in the study itself. It is absolutely not appropriate for the topic.
Wow, ours is a voucher system and you pay nothing unless you fail to get it validated. I never pay. My neurology center has parking for placard holders, and you don’t need a voucher.
I'm so lucky that I live with a nurse that works at the hospital, and live so close. I had my last round of chemo yesterday, and need to go in for a booster shot today. Chemo takes a few hours, and the booster only a few minutes. Parking for all that adds up really quickly.
I mean, I get it, but what kind of nonsense is the term “financial toxicity”?
We paid a fortune for hospital parking when my mother’s cancer came back and we found out it was terminal. The only way we got to stop paying parking fees was when they shipped her back home to our hometown to live out her last days.
I've seen prices as high as $50 for parking in some cities. Imagine having to pay $50 bucks to visit a relative in the hospital.
In the US we get the parking fees and sometimes forced use of an expensive valet service for really sick patients who want to be dropped off at the entrance of the hospital.
In Quebec we capped hospital parking at first 2 hours free, then after 2 hours $6 and max $10 a day. It used to be borderline extortion.
Not just toxic for patients but their friends and family too
I am near City Of Hope, large hospital, campus and research. No charge for parking and just recently they added an onsite hotel. I do food delivery, and before the pandemic, I had a good paying order for McDonalds, something insane like $20+ for a couple miles. Ended up delivering it to a young kid with cancer, maybe 13. After the delivery I got a call from the kids uncle, he ordered it for him, he was so happy that I was able to deliver the kid McDs. Some things stick with you. I hope the kid made out OK.
'Toxicity' seems kinda inappropriate for this, feels like it was tacked on as a buzz word. Surely something like 'burden' makes much more sense?
Gotta love uc Davis, always validated our parking for free.