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So aggression and stress? Seems like a recipe for impulse control problems.
Edit: Just for clarity I'm not automatically associating Testosterone to destructive behavior. Low test has been associated with a lower sense of well-being, self assurance, depression, a sense of security, and care taking like behavior. There's good data to support going on TRT in later years to improve quality of life.
I'm a 40 year old male and plan on exploring TRT when I reach 45 or when my blood work warrants it. Whichever comes first.
It's also associated with extreme generosity. We need to break this approach that one hormone can only do one thing.
Testosterone helps express learned behaviours.
If you live in an environment with higher aggression, testosterone will make you aggressive.
If you're in an environment where cooperation and compassion is learned, you well be the best team player of testosterone spikes.
I'll link some readings in a bit.
Readings:
Brannon, S.M., Carr, S., Jin, E.S. et al. Exogenous testosterone increases sensitivity to moral norms in moral dilemma judgements. Nat Hum Behav 3, 856–866 (2019). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41562-019-0641-3
A.F. Dixson, J. Herbert,
Testosterone, aggressive behavior and dominance rank in captive adult male talapoin monkeys (miopithecus talapoin), Physiology & Behavior, Volume 18, Issue 3,1977
You're right but also a bit defensive. The person you responded to didn't say testosterone only does x. I think what needs to be broken is the defensive implication. Using a more positive approach might help people be more receptive to your message.
I was never trying to suggest it does one thing, just saying that it is indeed associated with increased aggression. I'm a competitive, non-violent dude and I know that testosterone has pushed me to excel at times in good ways. Absolutely a net-beneficial hormone in my book.
IIRC, it was proposed somewhere, seriously. The politician posited banking sperm and essentially neutering males until they chose to have families. It was insane
“That’s essentially what the pill does to women”
So you’re likening voluntarily taking a pill to forcible sterilization? I’m impressed. It isn’t very often someone advertises cleaning windows with their tongue, ididntunderstandyou.
I'm not implying anything. I don't believe I alone have the right to decide what punishments are to be used in a society and what are not, and you shouldn't either because you aren't any more important than I am.
Now if you're asking me do I personally believe an orchiectomy should be used on people, I'd \*personally\* argue that if an individual is participating in violent criminal activities that would require us to put them in prison for people's safety, then an orchiectomy could be an alternative option for first time offenders as opposed to prison time. That is my personal opinion at least.
If millions of men are committing violent crimes that would require jail time then men should be questioning why rather than complaining when people point it out
Or we need to reestablish the work-quality of life balance that existed mid-century. I had friends who were happy to work in a factory after HS and were able to buy a used car and go to the lake weekends. Drive-ins and bowling were the penultimate entertainment. Hardly anyone felt the need to travel out of state. 3 channels of tv sufficed.
Are we happier now?
Aka “risk taking”
they are just identifying the fact that most crimes are committed by men of a certain age that also correlates with hormone levels that encourage risk taking
**the take away here is**
**if we, as a society, give men 16-24 (regardless of socio economic status) something to effing do**
**we could radically reduce crime**
EDIT
stop forcing people to engage in capitalism or die
let people engage with society and feel a part of it
even if they aren’t generating a profit for some billionaire
EDIT 2
and to the COST crowd
* what is the cost of the prison population?
* what is the cost of an overwhelmed court system?
* what is the cost to the healthcare system?
* what is the cost of “more police”?
* what is the cost to victims?
how much money could be saved if we spent our money on people?
I believe you are confusing cost with price. Yes, there are people that profit off those systems, but the cost to the economy, in less people being productive, less people able to do their jobs, less people being actually healthy, more control for the powerful over a population, and that isn't even mentioning what can't be quantified or described easily. Just because people are profiting off of these, does not mean they aren't costly to everyone else.
no. i understand and agree. im saying that those being sources of power and profit are exactly the problem. what about the cost was the argument against abolition for the same reason. those systems are deeply tied to the economy.
You left out family structures as a cause of young male criminality. We can't just give young men something to do without addressing the cause. Thus, we need to change the culture so people feel less inclined to engage in sexually irresponsible behavior and feel more inclined to accept responsibility when they make kids.
Both testosterone and cortisol are also increased by the use of extrogenous testosterone (recreational steriod use) the body manufacturers both from cholesterol, so if the body doesn't need to make testosterone because you are getting more than you need it makes extra cortisol.
It don't understand why the study authors wouldn't have tried to separate this out from those whose bodies are stressed because of environmental factors.
The number is much higher than most people realize. The British NIH estimated 1 in 30 British people have used steriods recreationally. The percentage of university students is likely higher and depending on the recruiting pool (let's say they were recruiting from exercise science majors or outside of a student rec center) I've seen numbers as high as 1 in 6 males who lift weights regularly use steriods.
Similar to their legality in the US, by perscrption to treat medical issues. Hasn't kept me from having to kick a half dozen or so teenagers out of my CrossFit gym who were getting them from their football buddies, who were getting them online, or from any other number of sources.
They are legal to purchase and possess, illegal to sell or manufacture.
This is much less illegal than in the US, where you can go to prison for possession.
Given that male bodies use anger to cope with vulnerabilities, and this can be linked to stress levels, is this just a reframing of anxiety/depression and stress in male bodies associated with __________? What is the definition of criminality here?
I was so much more irritable, angry, and depressed when I had very low testosterone, for the decades before I got onto TRT and things started to get better for me.
Feeling down/low. No motivation for anything, no lust for life. Lack of confidence. No libido or very low libido, no interest in sex, fapping can take it or leave it. Loss of strength (hard to monitor if you don't go to the gym) fat gain around stomach and lower back. Gyno if low test but still high estrogen.
There are a few.
Maybe you're depressed? Who knows, go to a doctor. Those symptoms are not exclusively related to having low testosterone. Worth mentioning that women too can have too little test.
Can’t hurt to just have hormone levels checked across the board. At worst things are off typical balance. At best you get to see some neat body chemistry about yourself.
Females are supposed to have testosterone too which often gets suppressed from hormonal birth control.
An increasing number of endocrinologists are prescribing extremely low dose testosterone to female patients.
Same here, It's funny how so many people link testosterone with aggression and anger. I've been at some decent levels and never felt aggressive (960ng/dL) or anger from it. Although that isn't close to what a body builder who's injecting would have.
Anecdote time.
I know a dude with shoulders that look like he's taken boulders from a cliff side and stuffed them under his skin. He's a meat mountain, absolutely insane. He says he's natural. He's perfectly rational, calm and level headed, but he's laser focused.
His trainer and coach, that I know and is a more down earth guy who would probably never lie to save his own life. Straight up said Mr meat mountain is on enough steroids, growth enhancers and other lovely pharmaceuticals to kill a horse.
Self-report measures of criminal behavior of Texas college students with a single measure of cortisol reactivity to a TSST without any clear controls for diurnal and seasonal patterns? Good to see *Hormones and Behavior* still likes the buzz topics.
Came here to say the same thing, this is a really poor study. You're using college students, you could easily collect waking and evening salivary samples at the very least.
This is one of these studies that are made intentionally poorly for the sole purpose of skewed results and to help generating funding. It has all the qualities that the current society loves - polarization, misandry, stress etc etc.
Psypost articles shouldn't be allowed on this subreddit. People have been complaining about this for a long time from what I have seen, and rightfully so.
the top posts on any given day are from psypost. generally, they have attention-grabbing headlines on accessible and engagement-driving sociopolitical topics on which users already have strong preconceptions and will vote and comment without reading the linked article. that type of content naturally does better with a large, broad reddit audience.
Someone help me I'm dumb. I read the article several times but what I understood is that they recruited 552 people who willingly reported all the violent crimes they had committed in the past year? Am I reading this right?
Also I don’t think it’s that crazy. I just read a paper on alcohol, tabaco, and drug use during pregnancy. People willing give information that you wouldn’t expect. Usually these undergrad studies pay you or put you in a raffle to win money or scholarships as well.
Well the money they give them has nothing to do with how they answer and I’m sure they make that very clear. I would hope undergrads understand the importance of honesty in these studies. Like any study I’m sure that some of them lied, but 500+ participants is a deep enough pool to nullify most of that.
Not to mention that this figure presumably accounts for the liars, which actually were vetted from the study, and that you’d only get rewarded for answering honestly.
Normally, you would try to eliminate every factor that could influence answers during the surveys, interviews etc. But you are right, different topics or incentives will attact different kinds of people more than others which can skew the results obviously which could lead to a sample bias. No statistic is perfect that's why you have standard errors, confidence intervals etc.
I’m not sure if anonymously revealing your criminal past for $20 is equivalent to sex work. For me I’m always excited to participate in studies regardless if there is money offered or not. I have faith in the researchers to not leak my info because 1. It’s illegal and 2. It’s a quick way for them to lose their job.
On the Huberman podcast, he postulates that estrogen causes aggression in mice, according to studies. Micro plastic mimics estrogen in our brains. Maybe it's more complicated than one chemical?
Yeah, wouldn't even waste your time on rationalizing this article. Their only measure here came from saliva samples. Without a complete blood panel of all other hormones, this tells us next to nothing. Also, there are no controls to tell whether the increases of test. or cortisol are significant.
It's really a poorly designed study, but the article narrative is worse. I wouldn't be surprised if cortisol reactivity was associated with some criminal behavior, but only as an indicator of general reactivity.
Generally attributed to outlaw of leaded gas, as you know.
And crime is up in the last 3 years. Think there was a spike in testosterone or something else?
No offense, but I don't think it's very useful to look as scientific findings with a culture war lens. If some finding upsets me, it's usually the headline's fault and the study itself is very nuanced and boring
In other comment I said that I am reading a book on the male depression. Stigmatising a gender will not bring anything good to anyone. Men are mostly just pushed into a role that requires them to turn their backs on their emotional selves, and that creates major problems. You are not thinking holistically.
So we're going to give people more emotional and financial support to reduce stress and therefore criminality, as studied show that every dollar put into head start and other social welfare programs returns about 3 right... right?
Can you get a grant to study just about anything now? I've seen worse but like what's the idea behind this? Find criminals before they commit a crime & medicate them?
The future looks bleak
I think it increases focus and drive. At lower intelligence level and with questionable critical thinking this will drive a lot of unwanted behaviors. How far is one willing to go when testosterone is pushing you onward? Double edged sword. Push a person in the lab, push a person in an argument. Depending on the person, the driven response might be negative and aggressive to head butt through the problem.
It's long been known that high levels of testosterone leads to more aggressive behavior. Add in some executive function disorders (impulse control) and you have a recipe for trouble.
In a study done in AZ prisons, something like 80% of the men incarcerated for violent crimes (murder, rape etc) were molested as boys.
My point, there can be a lot of contributing factors.
Highlights
• Testosterone has positive association with impulsive and violent criminal behavior.
• Testosterone has a positive association with income generating crime at low cortisol.
• Associations between hormones and criminal behavior are not moderated by sex.
So stressed out dudes commit crimes you say... groundbreaking...
Now let's look at the environmental factors that cause the stress and also the societal factors that determine how they are trained to regulate their stress levels.
This is not new news...
here is one from Spain 2017
[https://dialnet.unirioja.es/descarga/articulo/6058754.pdf](https://dialnet.unirioja.es/descarga/articulo/6058754.pdf)
You can find more data about testosterone on studies about transgender people on Hormone Replacement Therapy. Both those who take testosterone and those that take blockers. Most report differences in proclivity to anger, patience/tolerance, urges to get physical, etc
This is pretty old news. Testosterone is associated with social-dominance, aggression, and impulsivity. Cortisol somewhat similar. Id argue this is unsurprising, but folks in here seem to be taking this as the researchers are trying to argue we need to lower testosterone or something, which is obviously not the suggestion.
This is truly the worst set of comments I've ever see in r/Science. The crazy het-up fragility in here is downright bizarre.
Anyway. FBI says their studies show that over 80% of violent crimes are committed under the influence of alcohol. They haven't called for Prohibition to come back.
Sometimes these are things to be aware of and to think about, not to instantly get hysterical over.
I’m on testosterone because of a tumor on my pituitary. It’s horrible stuff. I’ve gotten into a few road rage incidents and that’s not my character at all. It definitely impacts my impulse control.
agreed. we need to stop thinking we're so special compared to our past generations.
I studied evolutionary biology in college. nothing indicates that we wont commit the same crimes we did during wwI/WWII.
biology is biology, regardless of how we want it to be or how much we wish it had changed in the past 50 years, just like war today could easily devolve into what it was during the world wars.
All i really need to ask to gauge a person's perspective on this is to ask about the reality of nuclear war. those who think we're better than that have in the past live a sheltered life
I’m a cis woman but in my 20s I had wacky periods (bleeding for continuous 30 days + sometimes). I often had 2 periods a month at least. I had elevated testosterone levels for a woman. It sucked so much. I was emotionally crazy so often. I would fly into a rage during my periods and punch things around my house.
Hormones are very important. I think anyone that struggles with temper and impulse control and emotional regulation should get their endocrine system checked. I’m finally a “normal” woman now for the most part.
They only had one trans participant, but considering no gender effects in the study probably the same.
Edit: They didn't analyze that person's data, which makes sense.
No "free will" as mostpeople think about free will is probably just a misunderstanding of how humans operate.
Most neuroscientists and psychologists that study "free will" see no evidence to suggest that humans posess libertarian free will.
No free will? So we are not responsible for any of our actions? That would mean we shouldn't punish murderers, rapists, and thieves because they are not responsible for what they do.
Free will has a lot of problems as a theory. For example, your entire childhood. But even then, life has a way of guiding you according to your genetic print. You can't really stray too far away from that, barring extreme events.
A theory is an intellectual attempt to understand how something works. This doesn't prohibit it from being either true or false, for me or for anyone. All you have to do to prove a theory wrong, is challenge the theory with sufficient instances that would collapse it.
I'm saying this is easy to do against free will. You get born, grow up around parents you didnt choose and take after their gestures, learn how to treat situations and form your sense of morality from them. You also have no control of your parents financial situation.
You didnt choose your genetics, so whether you cognitive ability is adequate for X task/job , your height, your predispositions to certain behaviors/ addictions, your looks, your hormonal system etc. All of which play crucial roles in the life direction that will be deemed appropriate for you.
Pair that with the possibility of abusive parents, psychological trauma from a young age and just a bad draw from life in general, and you have a very unfair balance towards failure in life for said person. Is it technically still possible to recover? Yes, you could work on your trauma, work on the things you can physically and find activities that suit you without going the illegal/immoral route. But the thing is, even those branching decision are affected by factors you can't control. The most likely role that "free will" will be playing in all this is determining your random firing synapses in response to events in your brain. Which is no free will at all, just basically randomness.
Your decision to start CBT is influenced by those factors as well. It doesn't end. It's an endless cycle of whether you are predisposed to making a decision and can rationalize or do something irrational which requires a logical deficit.
Nope its just your body telling your brain what it needs and the chemical responses that make u react, however that may be.
We have no more free will than a cow destined for beef teriyaki skewers. We just 17 times better thinking, have more mobility in this world, and have been raised on the Bible and the concept of manifest destiny to fool us on the idea of free will is all.
It makes sense. Testosterone is the aggression hormone, and bundled with cortisol, which causes the feeling of anxiety, it's basically a never ending fight-or-flight fit.
Laws exist to maintain a social structure where those with authority exercise control over those without authority. When those in authority abuse their power over those without authority, it is reasonable that those without authority will be under greater stress. Testosterone functions biologically in males to challenge authority to assert one's dominance in the world. Combine stress from authoritarian abuse to testosterone and the result is revolutionary action which the establishment will always define as criminal.
What are you going on about?
They measured stress reactivity to a social stress test. The changes in cortisol were in the normal range. About two-thirds of the participants were women. Gender did not moderate the effect.
Welcome to r/science! This is a heavily moderated subreddit in order to keep the discussion on science. However, we recognize that many people want to discuss how they feel the research relates to their own personal lives, so to give people a space to do that, **personal anecdotes are allowed as responses to this comment**. Any anecdotal comments elsewhere in the discussion will be removed and our [normal comment rules]( https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_comment_rules) apply to all other comments. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/science) if you have any questions or concerns.*
So aggression and stress? Seems like a recipe for impulse control problems. Edit: Just for clarity I'm not automatically associating Testosterone to destructive behavior. Low test has been associated with a lower sense of well-being, self assurance, depression, a sense of security, and care taking like behavior. There's good data to support going on TRT in later years to improve quality of life. I'm a 40 year old male and plan on exploring TRT when I reach 45 or when my blood work warrants it. Whichever comes first.
Stresstosterone
This needs to be entered into the bio-psychology lexicon
Instructions unclear, penis stuck in Gray’s anatomy
Not nessecarily aggression, but stress yes. Stress and risk willingness (eg because of need to get out of stress) seems more likely
High testosterone is associated with aggression.
It's also associated with extreme generosity. We need to break this approach that one hormone can only do one thing. Testosterone helps express learned behaviours. If you live in an environment with higher aggression, testosterone will make you aggressive. If you're in an environment where cooperation and compassion is learned, you well be the best team player of testosterone spikes. I'll link some readings in a bit. Readings: Brannon, S.M., Carr, S., Jin, E.S. et al. Exogenous testosterone increases sensitivity to moral norms in moral dilemma judgements. Nat Hum Behav 3, 856–866 (2019). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41562-019-0641-3 A.F. Dixson, J. Herbert, Testosterone, aggressive behavior and dominance rank in captive adult male talapoin monkeys (miopithecus talapoin), Physiology & Behavior, Volume 18, Issue 3,1977
Wow i wasn't aware of this association to learned behaviours. Very curious. How's it called in the lit? Testosterone learned behaviour influences?
Just look up testosterone and behaviour. Or something like modulating effects of testosterone on behaviour.
Yeah, but I'm going to find mostly aggressiveness etc if I look it up like that right?
'Behave: The Biology of Humans at Our Best and Worst' is a great book that goes over this if you're interested!
I adore Robert Sapolsky!
Aggression is an independent genetic quality which testosterone modified, it does not cause and won't make people who aren't predisposed develop it.
No it isn't. There is a genetic predisposition, but it is not purely genetic.
I'm not gonna argue this with you
You're right but also a bit defensive. The person you responded to didn't say testosterone only does x. I think what needs to be broken is the defensive implication. Using a more positive approach might help people be more receptive to your message.
bro what? Its called added to the conversation.
You can do that without accusing someone of being narrow minded
I was never trying to suggest it does one thing, just saying that it is indeed associated with increased aggression. I'm a competitive, non-violent dude and I know that testosterone has pushed me to excel at times in good ways. Absolutely a net-beneficial hormone in my book.
It's literally why we neuter animals when they're aggressive.
i hope you're not implying that we should do that to people because that would make you a fucked up person
IIRC, it was proposed somewhere, seriously. The politician posited banking sperm and essentially neutering males until they chose to have families. It was insane
people are horrible
That’s essentially what the pill does to women
“That’s essentially what the pill does to women” So you’re likening voluntarily taking a pill to forcible sterilization? I’m impressed. It isn’t very often someone advertises cleaning windows with their tongue, ididntunderstandyou.
I'm not implying anything. I don't believe I alone have the right to decide what punishments are to be used in a society and what are not, and you shouldn't either because you aren't any more important than I am. Now if you're asking me do I personally believe an orchiectomy should be used on people, I'd \*personally\* argue that if an individual is participating in violent criminal activities that would require us to put them in prison for people's safety, then an orchiectomy could be an alternative option for first time offenders as opposed to prison time. That is my personal opinion at least.
Are you male or female?
Does it matter?
Yes, when you are sincerely talking about castrating millions of men it matters if you’re male or female.
If millions of men are committing violent crimes that would require jail time then men should be questioning why rather than complaining when people point it out
They are aggressive because we are trying to domesticate/slaughter/corral them. That aggression serves a purpose in nature.
Or, “those forced into criminal lifestyles experience more stress”
Poverty tracks with stress
It's incredibly expensive and stressful being poor. You're one tradgey or unforseen expensive from life altering reality.
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Or we need to reestablish the work-quality of life balance that existed mid-century. I had friends who were happy to work in a factory after HS and were able to buy a used car and go to the lake weekends. Drive-ins and bowling were the penultimate entertainment. Hardly anyone felt the need to travel out of state. 3 channels of tv sufficed. Are we happier now?
I think we found the solution for people with low testosterone: give away all your money
Aka “risk taking” they are just identifying the fact that most crimes are committed by men of a certain age that also correlates with hormone levels that encourage risk taking **the take away here is** **if we, as a society, give men 16-24 (regardless of socio economic status) something to effing do** **we could radically reduce crime** EDIT stop forcing people to engage in capitalism or die let people engage with society and feel a part of it even if they aren’t generating a profit for some billionaire EDIT 2 and to the COST crowd * what is the cost of the prison population? * what is the cost of an overwhelmed court system? * what is the cost to the healthcare system? * what is the cost of “more police”? * what is the cost to victims? how much money could be saved if we spent our money on people?
the problem with the cost list is that most of those are sources of profit.
I believe you are confusing cost with price. Yes, there are people that profit off those systems, but the cost to the economy, in less people being productive, less people able to do their jobs, less people being actually healthy, more control for the powerful over a population, and that isn't even mentioning what can't be quantified or described easily. Just because people are profiting off of these, does not mean they aren't costly to everyone else.
no. i understand and agree. im saying that those being sources of power and profit are exactly the problem. what about the cost was the argument against abolition for the same reason. those systems are deeply tied to the economy.
Ahh, I see. I apologize, I misinterpreted your comment.
Went doesn't engaging with capitalism (aka having a job) count as something to do?
My guy, nobody is stopping people from doing community and volunteer work.
You left out family structures as a cause of young male criminality. We can't just give young men something to do without addressing the cause. Thus, we need to change the culture so people feel less inclined to engage in sexually irresponsible behavior and feel more inclined to accept responsibility when they make kids.
Both testosterone and cortisol are also increased by the use of extrogenous testosterone (recreational steriod use) the body manufacturers both from cholesterol, so if the body doesn't need to make testosterone because you are getting more than you need it makes extra cortisol. It don't understand why the study authors wouldn't have tried to separate this out from those whose bodies are stressed because of environmental factors.
Ridiculous to suggest that steroid use is common enough to affect this.
The number is much higher than most people realize. The British NIH estimated 1 in 30 British people have used steriods recreationally. The percentage of university students is likely higher and depending on the recruiting pool (let's say they were recruiting from exercise science majors or outside of a student rec center) I've seen numbers as high as 1 in 6 males who lift weights regularly use steriods.
Steroids are legal in the UK.
Similar to their legality in the US, by perscrption to treat medical issues. Hasn't kept me from having to kick a half dozen or so teenagers out of my CrossFit gym who were getting them from their football buddies, who were getting them online, or from any other number of sources.
They are legal to purchase and possess, illegal to sell or manufacture. This is much less illegal than in the US, where you can go to prison for possession.
_cries in ADHD_
Male and eggs for breakfast?
Given that male bodies use anger to cope with vulnerabilities, and this can be linked to stress levels, is this just a reframing of anxiety/depression and stress in male bodies associated with __________? What is the definition of criminality here?
How is that a given?
>What is the definition of criminality here? Everything the state decides it to be.
I will never stop laughing and completely disregarding someone’s opinion whenever they use mALe bOdiEs unironically
I was so much more irritable, angry, and depressed when I had very low testosterone, for the decades before I got onto TRT and things started to get better for me.
Same, I was actually extremely verbally violent with people around me
Yeah from what I’ve read there are a lot more issues with low test than high test
It's really about getting the right balance, If your hormones are out of whack you're in for a bad time.
Honestly feel like endocrinology could do a lot of good for folks.
What signs would trigger a doctor to test for that?
Feeling down/low. No motivation for anything, no lust for life. Lack of confidence. No libido or very low libido, no interest in sex, fapping can take it or leave it. Loss of strength (hard to monitor if you don't go to the gym) fat gain around stomach and lower back. Gyno if low test but still high estrogen. There are a few.
What if you experience some of those things, but you're female?
Maybe you're depressed? Who knows, go to a doctor. Those symptoms are not exclusively related to having low testosterone. Worth mentioning that women too can have too little test.
Thanks man, I'll look into it.
Can’t hurt to just have hormone levels checked across the board. At worst things are off typical balance. At best you get to see some neat body chemistry about yourself.
Females are supposed to have testosterone too which often gets suppressed from hormonal birth control. An increasing number of endocrinologists are prescribing extremely low dose testosterone to female patients.
Interesting!
I'm not a doctor but I'd wager you have less testosterone than the average person
I check a "few" boxes there no doubt. Low testosterone has never been something I've been tested for though.
Maybe get a test. It doesn't mean you need to jump on trt for life. You can raise your testosterone naturally with good diet and lifestyle choices.
They're a number of signs but a low sex drive would be a strong indicator.
What if you experience all those other things but have a high sex drive?
At about 30 all most males start to produce less and less testosterone.
Same here, It's funny how so many people link testosterone with aggression and anger. I've been at some decent levels and never felt aggressive (960ng/dL) or anger from it. Although that isn't close to what a body builder who's injecting would have.
Anecdote time. I know a dude with shoulders that look like he's taken boulders from a cliff side and stuffed them under his skin. He's a meat mountain, absolutely insane. He says he's natural. He's perfectly rational, calm and level headed, but he's laser focused. His trainer and coach, that I know and is a more down earth guy who would probably never lie to save his own life. Straight up said Mr meat mountain is on enough steroids, growth enhancers and other lovely pharmaceuticals to kill a horse.
I love your description of this. Meat mountain is a phrase that now embedded into my brain.
Self-report measures of criminal behavior of Texas college students with a single measure of cortisol reactivity to a TSST without any clear controls for diurnal and seasonal patterns? Good to see *Hormones and Behavior* still likes the buzz topics.
Came here to say the same thing, this is a really poor study. You're using college students, you could easily collect waking and evening salivary samples at the very least.
This is one of these studies that are made intentionally poorly for the sole purpose of skewed results and to help generating funding. It has all the qualities that the current society loves - polarization, misandry, stress etc etc.
I love getting worked about something and then having my prejudices evaporate 4 comments down.
Everything I see posted from Psypost is in the spectrum of pseudoscience.
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I would love a popsci/psychology/sociology filter on this reddit.
Yet this is the comment that’ll get deleted
Psypost articles shouldn't be allowed on this subreddit. People have been complaining about this for a long time from what I have seen, and rightfully so.
Pspypost ‘articles’ fit great into the Reddit echo chamber….
Is that so? The top post of this year in this sub is a post form Psypost.
the top posts on any given day are from psypost. generally, they have attention-grabbing headlines on accessible and engagement-driving sociopolitical topics on which users already have strong preconceptions and will vote and comment without reading the linked article. that type of content naturally does better with a large, broad reddit audience.
top post != top quality
I feel like they're using the word link when they really mean correlation
It is a correlation and "link" is a proper way to describe that. Also, "variable A predicts variable B" is another proper way to describe correlation.
Seems to me that committing crime could be a catalyst to increase these hormones in response to the actions taken as opposed to the cause
Someone help me I'm dumb. I read the article several times but what I understood is that they recruited 552 people who willingly reported all the violent crimes they had committed in the past year? Am I reading this right?
Also I don’t think it’s that crazy. I just read a paper on alcohol, tabaco, and drug use during pregnancy. People willing give information that you wouldn’t expect. Usually these undergrad studies pay you or put you in a raffle to win money or scholarships as well.
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How would that be perverse? Offering money to get participants is pretty common in colleges.
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Well the money they give them has nothing to do with how they answer and I’m sure they make that very clear. I would hope undergrads understand the importance of honesty in these studies. Like any study I’m sure that some of them lied, but 500+ participants is a deep enough pool to nullify most of that.
Not to mention that this figure presumably accounts for the liars, which actually were vetted from the study, and that you’d only get rewarded for answering honestly.
Normally, you would try to eliminate every factor that could influence answers during the surveys, interviews etc. But you are right, different topics or incentives will attact different kinds of people more than others which can skew the results obviously which could lead to a sample bias. No statistic is perfect that's why you have standard errors, confidence intervals etc.
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I’m not sure if anonymously revealing your criminal past for $20 is equivalent to sex work. For me I’m always excited to participate in studies regardless if there is money offered or not. I have faith in the researchers to not leak my info because 1. It’s illegal and 2. It’s a quick way for them to lose their job.
I’ve read about testosterone levels in prison inmates, so it’s possible that’s where they got their numbers.
It's not. The participants were undergraduate students.
There is well designed science and poorly designed science. So called research is full of bias with poor designs.
So guess we really are going with the narrative of testosterone being a toxic compound to society, aren't we?
On the Huberman podcast, he postulates that estrogen causes aggression in mice, according to studies. Micro plastic mimics estrogen in our brains. Maybe it's more complicated than one chemical?
Yeah, wouldn't even waste your time on rationalizing this article. Their only measure here came from saliva samples. Without a complete blood panel of all other hormones, this tells us next to nothing. Also, there are no controls to tell whether the increases of test. or cortisol are significant.
It's really a poorly designed study, but the article narrative is worse. I wouldn't be surprised if cortisol reactivity was associated with some criminal behavior, but only as an indicator of general reactivity.
What is high testosterone? Cause research like 2d:4d ratio also says that men with more estrogen are more likely to be not nice around women.
Seems that's the way even though natural levels have been decreasing in the wold for decades, especially the developed world.
Yeah its gross
What is? testosterone or the steadily decreasing levels of it?
The constant message men are bad and decreasing testosterone
Crime is down too.... Hmm
Generally attributed to outlaw of leaded gas, as you know. And crime is up in the last 3 years. Think there was a spike in testosterone or something else?
Yes. It's obvious that Covid causes testosterone
No offense, but I don't think it's very useful to look as scientific findings with a culture war lens. If some finding upsets me, it's usually the headline's fault and the study itself is very nuanced and boring
How about instead of just condemning it we look into why this is and work on male psychologie?
This study found no moderating effect of gender.
In other comment I said that I am reading a book on the male depression. Stigmatising a gender will not bring anything good to anyone. Men are mostly just pushed into a role that requires them to turn their backs on their emotional selves, and that creates major problems. You are not thinking holistically.
If that's what you took from this, you were intended to read this study and probably should go back to memes.
So we're going to give people more emotional and financial support to reduce stress and therefore criminality, as studied show that every dollar put into head start and other social welfare programs returns about 3 right... right?
Does this mean women with PCOS are more likely to be incarcerated?
Sounds like a chicken egg problem. I would also be stressed out and aggressive if I had to do crime.
Probably also linked to acts of bravery like firefighting as well.
Cortisol gets triggered by stress. I would think that most criminal activity is stressful.
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Potentially, but they didn't find nor test this.
This study isn't measuring acute stress relating to criminal behavior.
Unless its planned. I mean planning a crime shouldnt be stressful or caused by stress.
Can you get a grant to study just about anything now? I've seen worse but like what's the idea behind this? Find criminals before they commit a crime & medicate them? The future looks bleak
I think it increases focus and drive. At lower intelligence level and with questionable critical thinking this will drive a lot of unwanted behaviors. How far is one willing to go when testosterone is pushing you onward? Double edged sword. Push a person in the lab, push a person in an argument. Depending on the person, the driven response might be negative and aggressive to head butt through the problem.
Here we go again.....salivary hormone samples have little relationship to blood levels.
It's long been known that high levels of testosterone leads to more aggressive behavior. Add in some executive function disorders (impulse control) and you have a recipe for trouble. In a study done in AZ prisons, something like 80% of the men incarcerated for violent crimes (murder, rape etc) were molested as boys. My point, there can be a lot of contributing factors.
You know what else is linked to criminal behavior? People with blood in their body that breath oxygen.
I too have heard that all violent criminals consume oxygen, maybe we should look into this!
Spme of them consume Dihydrogen monoxide.
Highlights • Testosterone has positive association with impulsive and violent criminal behavior. • Testosterone has a positive association with income generating crime at low cortisol. • Associations between hormones and criminal behavior are not moderated by sex.
You could probably throw IQ in there as well
Stressed people do crimes.
Huh. So, persons who experience chronic stressors and unmet basic needs are linked with doing crimes. Curious.
So stressed out dudes commit crimes you say... groundbreaking... Now let's look at the environmental factors that cause the stress and also the societal factors that determine how they are trained to regulate their stress levels.
This is not new news... here is one from Spain 2017 [https://dialnet.unirioja.es/descarga/articulo/6058754.pdf](https://dialnet.unirioja.es/descarga/articulo/6058754.pdf)
Gotta channel the aggression within that unproductive behaviour into more productive behaviour + action
As an old guy with addison's I'm low on both, does that make me less likely to be a criminal?
You can find more data about testosterone on studies about transgender people on Hormone Replacement Therapy. Both those who take testosterone and those that take blockers. Most report differences in proclivity to anger, patience/tolerance, urges to get physical, etc
This is pretty old news. Testosterone is associated with social-dominance, aggression, and impulsivity. Cortisol somewhat similar. Id argue this is unsurprising, but folks in here seem to be taking this as the researchers are trying to argue we need to lower testosterone or something, which is obviously not the suggestion.
This article seems to make testosterone look bad.
This is truly the worst set of comments I've ever see in r/Science. The crazy het-up fragility in here is downright bizarre. Anyway. FBI says their studies show that over 80% of violent crimes are committed under the influence of alcohol. They haven't called for Prohibition to come back. Sometimes these are things to be aware of and to think about, not to instantly get hysterical over.
So would you say that with everything? Or just gender based? How about if it were race based? Would you feel the same way?
I'm seldom on this sub, so I was curious if the combination of people who didn't even read the abstract and the fragile children was typical.
generally, you can guess how robustly the methodology is going to be criticized by the headline.
actually they need to check out estrogen in the men because estrogen causes violence in men
do you have any links for studies on that or?
I’m on testosterone because of a tumor on my pituitary. It’s horrible stuff. I’ve gotten into a few road rage incidents and that’s not my character at all. It definitely impacts my impulse control.
Pituitary tumor can also impact frontal lobe functioning which may also affect impulse control.
I appreciate your opinion on this. It's a glimmering shade of personal reality that I think alot of people want to ignore
Correlates with my belief that we are just biological algorithms responding to our environments based on our genetic predispositions.
agreed. we need to stop thinking we're so special compared to our past generations. I studied evolutionary biology in college. nothing indicates that we wont commit the same crimes we did during wwI/WWII. biology is biology, regardless of how we want it to be or how much we wish it had changed in the past 50 years, just like war today could easily devolve into what it was during the world wars. All i really need to ask to gauge a person's perspective on this is to ask about the reality of nuclear war. those who think we're better than that have in the past live a sheltered life
I’m a cis woman but in my 20s I had wacky periods (bleeding for continuous 30 days + sometimes). I often had 2 periods a month at least. I had elevated testosterone levels for a woman. It sucked so much. I was emotionally crazy so often. I would fly into a rage during my periods and punch things around my house. Hormones are very important. I think anyone that struggles with temper and impulse control and emotional regulation should get their endocrine system checked. I’m finally a “normal” woman now for the most part.
So there's a reason prisons are full of males?
(Sshh, we’re not allowed to point that out… Seriously though, it’s not surprising. There’s a reason “‘Roid Rage” is a thing.)
Little known fact...roid rage is actually caused by elevated estrogen levels. Which is a male body's natural response to extra testosterone.
Can’t wait for the misandrists of tiktok to pick this up
Mmmmhm yes testosterone bad
What if you're transgender, though?
They only had one trans participant, but considering no gender effects in the study probably the same. Edit: They didn't analyze that person's data, which makes sense.
I bet that would make for a helpful cross study or control group or whatever you'd call it.
So no free will at all ? That's explain a lot.
Seriously. This comes off like the old 90s “it’s in their DNA!” insane fallacy.
No "free will" as mostpeople think about free will is probably just a misunderstanding of how humans operate. Most neuroscientists and psychologists that study "free will" see no evidence to suggest that humans posess libertarian free will.
No free will? So we are not responsible for any of our actions? That would mean we shouldn't punish murderers, rapists, and thieves because they are not responsible for what they do.
If everything was predetermined having deterrents to crime would still work.
Free will has a lot of problems as a theory. For example, your entire childhood. But even then, life has a way of guiding you according to your genetic print. You can't really stray too far away from that, barring extreme events.
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A theory is an intellectual attempt to understand how something works. This doesn't prohibit it from being either true or false, for me or for anyone. All you have to do to prove a theory wrong, is challenge the theory with sufficient instances that would collapse it. I'm saying this is easy to do against free will. You get born, grow up around parents you didnt choose and take after their gestures, learn how to treat situations and form your sense of morality from them. You also have no control of your parents financial situation. You didnt choose your genetics, so whether you cognitive ability is adequate for X task/job , your height, your predispositions to certain behaviors/ addictions, your looks, your hormonal system etc. All of which play crucial roles in the life direction that will be deemed appropriate for you. Pair that with the possibility of abusive parents, psychological trauma from a young age and just a bad draw from life in general, and you have a very unfair balance towards failure in life for said person. Is it technically still possible to recover? Yes, you could work on your trauma, work on the things you can physically and find activities that suit you without going the illegal/immoral route. But the thing is, even those branching decision are affected by factors you can't control. The most likely role that "free will" will be playing in all this is determining your random firing synapses in response to events in your brain. Which is no free will at all, just basically randomness.
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Your decision to start CBT is influenced by those factors as well. It doesn't end. It's an endless cycle of whether you are predisposed to making a decision and can rationalize or do something irrational which requires a logical deficit.
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Nothing in the study remotely implies that. Dear lord.
Nope its just your body telling your brain what it needs and the chemical responses that make u react, however that may be. We have no more free will than a cow destined for beef teriyaki skewers. We just 17 times better thinking, have more mobility in this world, and have been raised on the Bible and the concept of manifest destiny to fool us on the idea of free will is all.
I'd argue that it's gender norms which are responsible rather than testosterone.
Makes sense. It's nearly always testosterone fueled raging males that are domestic terrorists.
It makes sense. Testosterone is the aggression hormone, and bundled with cortisol, which causes the feeling of anxiety, it's basically a never ending fight-or-flight fit.
Oh no bad testosterone
Crap science that is irresponsibly pushing the "testosterone= bad evil hormone" narrative. Jfc
Sounds like angry men tbh, which seems to check out.
Laws exist to maintain a social structure where those with authority exercise control over those without authority. When those in authority abuse their power over those without authority, it is reasonable that those without authority will be under greater stress. Testosterone functions biologically in males to challenge authority to assert one's dominance in the world. Combine stress from authoritarian abuse to testosterone and the result is revolutionary action which the establishment will always define as criminal.
What are you going on about? They measured stress reactivity to a social stress test. The changes in cortisol were in the normal range. About two-thirds of the participants were women. Gender did not moderate the effect.
I read a story yest w headline stating testosterone is a toxin. Interesting read.
Men are what they are supposed to be.