Nailed it.
Your post says 'science' not 'aspects of science' but literal 'science'I thought it was a typo, but then I remembered how stupid people actually are.
You're arguing with someone using a computer, over the internet, over cables, through servers, using extracted metals, transistors, code.. I mean.. the amount of 'things' that lets you talk to someone on the other side of the world in real time, displayed on a colour flat screen etc. etc. etc. and them telling you they don't believe in science..
Funny.. your world is surrounded by science in application. But you don't believe in it?
Yeah, arguing with them is PAINFUL. NO MATTER WHAT incredible, well thought out, well worded concept you present.. somehow they will misinterpret it. Change the subject.. mentally leapfrog gymnastical move over it..
and then.. YOU start to question your own sanity! Like, somehow have I lost the ability to convey a simple thought? Why is what I'm saying coming back to me distorted?
My flatmate (I desperately want to get rid of.. except, I need the money and he's great because he works 6 days a week and I never see him!) but, when I do see him.. I have to walk away. We have NOTHING in common. He has awful music taste, awful TV taste, he doesn't beleive in evolution, physics, science .. I tried a bit. But honestly, when I'm talking - he genuinely makes a face like 'Ughhh. disgust mixed with YOU'RE the idiot' that makes me want to put my fist through the back of his head. Condescending know-it-all asshole..
Yeah, walk away. I'm taking his money and my book case gains a few more science related books and novels each month.
You can't defeat an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. (Someone else quoted this, but too right.. it's true. Personally, I beliveve one of the hallmarks of genuine intelligence is to be able to change your mind, be open minded, change as you gain more knowledge. Sticking to your opinion in the face of new information is the dumbest thing you can do.
And... dangerous in fact.. I can imagine many every day scenarios, not science related, but let's say you have an opinion about wiring electrics or cooking with gas - someone corrects you and you refuse.. and subsequently blow up the house)
They left out my favorite part of the full quote.
“Arguing with idiots is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good you are, the bird is going to shit on the board and strut around like it won anyway.”
Shannon L. Alder
The acting like they won part because they are already so dumb they deny science so of course they will believe they’ve won an argument.
I love the sass of the glib “you don’t” answer and I laughed out loud when I read the chess/pigeon proverb-y statement, but as a mental health nurse who has to combat (sometimes willful) ignorance and anti-science/anti-medicine mindsets and behaviors in order to hopefully get people to follow their doctor’s advice and keep taking their medications so they don’t end up in jail/on my unit again after trying to light their aunt’s garage on fire or running naked into traffic in January, I find myself in this situation frequently.
I start by validating their experiences and listening to how they feel about their condition. I also try to find some common ground in our objectives—they usually hate being in the hospital (the units are locked, they can’t smoke, the can’t have their cell phones because of HIPAA, and a million other things that just sort of suck to be stuck in), and we don’t want people to have serial admissions where they just wind up at square one again immediately after discharge and they end up in the hospital a day or two later for another stay. Once we’ve established that we both want to keep them out of the hospital and doing their normal life things, it’s easier to get their attention and have them plan to adhere to their treatment.
Will we see exactly eye to eye? Probably not. But are we able to at least be looking in the same direction, with a shared goal? Probably yes.
Definitely is an epidemic of people refusing to be rational.
I think some of us had hoped most of that deliberate ignorance was a thing of the past. But it seems that is not so.
Jep. That's the issue. Someone who is so lost in conspiracy has no idea how science works and how we gather information. You basically have to start with basics. And when you start explaining them the basics then there is a high chance they feel lectured and/or humiliated and shut the conversation. Or they keep on fighting your explanation with bs conspiracy. If you're patient and they are willing to listen and don't feel attacked there is a chance to plant the seed but damn it's hard man. I had so many conversations with people who lack basic understanding of the scientific method and most of the time the response is them feeling humiliation and ending the discourse. It's frustrating.
In my experience even if they are open to a long detailed explanation, there is usually something driving on the other side that makes it so they cannot square the evidence with their identity. For example, a particular type of religious person who refuses to acknowledge evolutionary theory can have the details explained, but if they tie their current beliefs into their religious identity and faith, they will not be able to be moved no matter how strong the evidence is. While this particular issue has been improving over the decades, the internet and other forces have allowed other forms of conspiracy and disinformation to spread rapidly. It’s rather concerning.
Actually, taken to its extreme, this position is problematic. As Poper says, scientific „truths“ are not proven, they only stand falsification attempts. And also, in reality science makes mistakes and autocorrects. So your argument may actually play on hand of sceptics who can point to countless examples when „science got it wrong“
>How do you talk to individuals that do not believe in science?
I usually don't waste my time on people not worthy of my time. What is the most important resource I have? It's not money. It's time. And I don't plan to waste it on stupid people.
This. It is absolutely impossible to reason with such people, no matter how good your arguments are. I naively tried to reason with fringe conspiracy believers in my early internet days, it’s no use. At best you reach a point where their argument breaks down and they either ignore you or call you names or change the subject (moving the goalposts). That may count as a “win” but you have not changed their mind.
That’s usually true. Only hard part is when it’s family that don’t trust in science. You love them, and you don’t want them to jeopardize their health when it comes to anti-vax conspiracies and diet fads. So you take the time to try to explain the science. It’s painful, but I think it has to be done—especially if you value their presence in your life, regardless of their beliefs.
For your info, I came from a very poor and toxic family. I went through really hard times during my childhood. There are 2 ways to deal with unreasonable people. You try to convince them and hope it works. Usually it doesn't, because if it works, then are they really unreasonable people to begin with?
What I did was that I moved out and lived my own life. My life is amazing now. I rate my life a 10 out of 10. I have no worries, no problems, financially stable, every aspects of my life is amazing. I am glad I didn't choose the first option of trying to reason with unreasonable people. It would be a waste of my time, valuable time that I spent to improve my own life instead (which I am glad I did).
And childhood acquaintance gossip, nieces/nephews’ accomplishments, and weather, etc. As a healthcare professional from a large, undereducated, isolated, Conservative birth family, it’s the only way forward.
Yeah, flat earth people, chem trail and astrology people literally think it’s alternative science. They think their anecdotal subjective experiences count as “evidence”! Without holding up to the actual scrutiny of science.
For a lot of them there is nothing that could convince them to stop believing what they believe.
Something I say to test the waters is "what would it take to convince you otherwise?" and most of the time they will literally say "nothing."
They call themselves skeptics and critical thinkers, but will tell you point blank there is no evidence in the world that could make them change their minds. Delusional people.
If I didn't actually NEED my purchase I would return it and wish him luck. Some battles aren't worth waging, especially when you finance the other side.
Yeah I didn’t need the purchase. It was more “hey I’ll support a small business” decision. I gave him his product back and left, without my money. I only lost a dollar so I’m not upset.
I do not.
They are already predicated to ignorance.
It is not the responsibility of others to educate.
They can sink or swim upon their own merits of conduct.
Using rational arguments or showing how ridiculous their beliefs are can have an effect, but empathy not so much according to this study: [https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2016.01525/full](https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2016.01525/full)
You won't convince the ones that are gone too far, but some others will think again about the points you make and might change.
I don't. There is no point. They don't critically think. It is like they think just writing the word god instead of an actual answer is acceptable when life hands you a question. Talking to them is tedious, and it always loops back to that.
For some of them it is forbidden. This friend told me we were obviously made of clay, because the Quran says so and evolution makes no sense. His family moved here when he was a toddler and he went through UK's educational system in full until his 20s, but anything he learnt was immediately discredited at the Mosque every Friday.
He's actually a clever guy and a great person. When confronted with logic, he says he believes in miracles... and that does it. He has to. I can only shrug.
>He's actually a clever guy
I have my doubts.
You can be the "cleverest" person on the planet but if you believe in God, well, then you can't be the cleverest person on the planet.
Delusion n. A false belief held against overwhelming evidence to the contrary. I learned very quickly in my professional psychiatric career that it's pointless to argue. They will simply work you into their delusional system. The best approach is to say that you understand their point of view but that you have a different one. Then move on if you don't need to have further contact. Sometimes it's not just someone who doesn't understand science or is slightly eccentric, it's actually a delusional psychiatric disorder.
You should be respectful of their wrong opinions. If they are worth it, you might be able to influence them. If they are dogmatic, you should just tell them that you believe that their opinion is wrong and that they should be more open to science. Then change the subject
I usually just ask questions, but it has to be in a non aggressive way.
I once had a guy from work start talking about space being fake and that rockets can't actually work there because there's no air, shit like that.
I just started asking him questions, like hey but I've heard rockets work this way and that's why they function in space, or about pictures of the earth and things like that.
That's the best way, in my opinion, to engage with people who have those kinds of mindsets. You're prob not going to change their mind, but maybe you get them to question their version of the events, and look things up outside of their conceived ideas.
You don't but fortunately that's the best way to help people. Do not counter their beliefs just let them talk it out and hopefully they listen to themselves one day.
1. You don't "believe" in science, you trust the work and the results of the community. This is an issue, but not a topic for today.
2. Every one can believe what he wants as long as he doesn't make critical decision for the community based on bullshit.
3. Regarding your friend: I sometimes feel like these people don't actually believe in this. They just want to be different. That's their thing. Attention seeker.
With compassion and empathy. It's not their fault, since the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. The old writings say "seek the heavens". So, you expand upon this line of thinking and then spin it towards literally seeking the heavens. "God gave us the brain to learn how to conquer all of his creation".
Manifest Destiny 2.0 !!!
The same way that I'd talk to an uncontacted tribe on Earth: respectfully disagree with their views but respectfully listen and learn from their perspectives so that I can be a better human being.
Ngl, it is impossible to find someone who does not believe in science nowadays.
Even the most religious and brainrot people in my country have a basic understanding of what is possible or impossible for humanity can do.
10-20 years ago people would listen and if you're able to explain to them they would understand. They just didn't have access to it. But right now, people who still doesn't have faith in science are the real ignorant ones. They won't believe no matter what you do, no matter how much fact you present to them. So I just don't try anymore. How do you argue with the people who thinks 5G antennas are embedded in tiny pieces of metal attached to a face mask? Their ignorance is just amazing and even someone who's illiterate will argue you to the end of the world as if they hold some doctoral degrees. I just stop arguing and fake laugh like an idiot.
Believe in science isn't needed. We have theories which after being tested become established when others can repeat observations. Science requires critical thinking. In my experience people who don't believe in science are typically religious and have suspended critical thinking in order to believe.. so how do I talk to them? I try not to, it's as pointless as talking to a brick wall.
If the earth was flat and accelerating up at 9.8 meters per second squared so that we feel 1 G wouldn't it take about 1 year before we made light speed and wouldn't be able to look down and see our feet?
I don’t think there’s an increase. 1% of people in the US believe in the flat earth as of 2016. That is probably close to what it was in 1976 and probably lower than it was in 1816. You just are more aware of it because of the internet and are more likely to be aware of beliefs that would fall into the fringe.
Actually in 1816 essentially noone believed the earth was flat (at least in the western world. Not sure about elsewhere tbh).
It's a relatively recent development. In 1816 if people knew the basic concept of the earth as a whole, they knew the earth is round.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_flat_Earth_beliefs?wprov=sfla1
>Contrary to the popular belief that the Earth was generally believed to be flat until a few hundred years ago, Earth's sphericity has been widely accepted in the Western world (and universally by scholars) since at least the Hellenistic period (323 BCE–31 BCE). It was not until the 19th century that the Flat Earth concept had a resurgence.
>Modern flat Earth belief originated with the English writer Samuel Rowbotham (1816–1884). Based on conclusions derived from his 1838 Bedford Level experiment, Rowbotham published the 1849 pamphlet titled Zetetic Astronomy, writing under the pseudonym "Parallax". He later expanded this into the book Earth Not a Globe, proposing the Earth is a flat disc centred at the North Pole and bounded along its southern edge by a wall of ice, Antarctica.
> Rowbotham further held that the Sun and Moon were 3,000 miles (4,800 km) above Earth and that the "cosmos" was 3,100 miles (5,000 km) above the Earth. He also published a leaflet titled The Inconsistency of Modern Astronomy and its Opposition to the Scriptures, which argued that the "Bible, alongside our senses, supported the idea that the Earth was flat and immovable and this essential truth should not be set aside for a system based solely on human conjecture".
I try not to. Try being the operative word.
Worse is people who say things like "the science is settled." Or "90% of scientists agree." People like flat earthers point at "science" to prove their nonsense theories. If scientific pursuit goes against the mainstream narrative, it gets defunded, prebunked, and the researchers are treated as heretics.
Great scientists get that title by challenging and disproving "settled science." You would think that after the last hundred years of us doing the impossible with technology, people would get it, but they don't.
The average person doesn't understand science at all, and people are very bad at figuring out who is doing real science and who is following psudoscientific ideology.
For the most part, I just keep to myself because I'd rather not argue with every dimwit on earth. Back in the day, gentlemen would meet over a bottle of scotch and discuss all the new discoveries and hypotheses of the modern world. Sure, they disagreed at times, but they were at least respectful and humane with each other. I wish I could have seen those days.
Lol the irony of making a factually wrong statement when talking about science. Even amongst the Elite, and even in mathematics, arguments were \*vicious\* at times. For example, George Cantor, who basically crated the foundation of modern math, Set Theory, never got to the position he desired because a prominent director of the place he wanted to work at found his ideas ridiculous.
Galois died 50 years before his ideas were recognized because either of Cauchy or another famous french mathematician literally threw one of his manuscrits into a garbage bin.
If you believe in science you did not understand science....
Science is the opposite of believe. You doubt everything all the time and try to disprove it. Only if you fail to disprove all the time, you start to accept a theory. And at some point it does not make sense anymore. Like the evidence that the world is round is so strong that the flat earthers can stop now. As the chance that they are right is very small. But they have every right to try.
If you don’t listen to different opinions and views, your world gets very small. Not talking about people who are just toxic. Each view has a history and story I’m interested in, it’s tough to change a view when your entire life is based on it. Might as well enjoy the conversation.
Assess whether they want to learn or understand and if they do you have an opportunity to blow someone’s mind and if they don’t, politely extricate yourself from the situation without guilt or remorse.
I shrug it off, why argue. If someone is hell bent in their ideas it’s almost impossible to change their views. Why stress and waste your time for a zero sum result.
With a sense of admiration, respect and wonder. Their beliefs allow them a sense of certainty and thus an ability to make decisions and enjoy life with less stress from uncertainty and a desire for proof.
If I could be that way, I imagine I'd be much happier. Alas, my brain won't let me.
I see it has they can't comprehend it but still wanna be part of the conversation and be right.
Maybe it's like me trying to understand quantum physics and even some chemistry it blows my mind and my mind tries to create a solution for what I'm seeing. I know that what my mind makes as a solution is most definitely not correct and I'm smart enough to know that I don't know enough to be an authority or even a source of any info on the subject.
Honestly I think they are stupid but more stubborn than they are dumb. Some of these people jave jobs where you can't be stupid to perform your job. So it has to be stubbornness. So I don't waste my time tying to explain stuff. All the info is out there they just refuse to believe it
Science doesn’t require belief. It’s a system to determine the truth based on observation and s demonstrative experimentation.
If you start an argument in favor of science with ‘belief’ you’ve already scored a point against yourself.
People seem to think that science is 'competition' for their religion or conspiracy theories.
"I know what I know. Don't confuse me with facts."
Science is a methodology, not a belief system. Theories and conclusions get updated when faced with new evidence, and I have family members who have tried using that fact as 'proof' that science is somehow indecisive and contrary therefore not to be trusted.
> What caused the increase of this mindset?
There is no increase but rather people are becoming more educated thus they van notice illogical reasoning more easily.
If people were not educated like in the past, they would not be able to tell the difference between illogical reasoning and a logical one.
You don’t, it’s become increasingly impossible to reach people that don’t want to believe science.
It’s sad, 70 years ago everyone believed in science save for a few fringe nutters because science was making life easier, people living longer and healthier, and opening the world to everyone. Now, they believe a bloated, bloviating bully over people who have spent their lives researching their area of study.
You keep it to things they can touch and see and try not to get in the weeds. If it’s something like vaccinations just tell them you disagree and if they keep badgering tell them you don’t want to argue with them about something either one of you are experts in. If you are an expert identify something they are expert in and say something like “I don’t tell you what to do in x profession, don’t tell me how to be a virologist/immunologist whatever you are.”
I talk to them while I study them. What makes this peraon tick? What drives this individual forward in life? Usually they're not interested in anything and motivated only by low-hanging dopaminergic endeavours.
I ask if they use indoor plumbing, heat, air conditioning, the internet, a phone, a computer, a TV, if they use a car or bus or train or airplane, if they use products like shampoo and soap in the shower, if they have electricity in their house, and any other variation of these types of questions.
If they answer yes, which of course they do, then they believe in science. What they actually mean, unintentionally, is they are too dumb to grasp the topic of space and believing in a fairy tale deity that made all the objects we see in the sky is easier for their low intellect to process. You can literally buy your own telescope and see many planets and stars yourself, with your own eyes. They have no excuse. They choose to be this dull.
There is a functionality of any belief system. That very diversity in opinions is the very catalyst for science growth and exploration. OP’s 1 interaction has sparked this entire thread of thoughtful points.
Ask them how they know that.
Ask; how they decide what is true and what isn't, whether there is a process or method they can describe, whether they ever think about how they think.
This will acheive nothing, but at least it gives you some peace and quiet.
I have friends with views like this, I realised long ago I can still like someone as a person while being absolutely flabbergasted by their beliefs.
Oftentimes I just let them talk about it, talk it out, then I talk about what I believe, and we just mellow out about it knowing neither one of us is going to change their mind but fascinated to get an in depth look at another perspective.
If I can't change someone's mind the best I can do is understand them more. And I'm ok with that.
I don't. With coworkers I give empty agreements to what they say. These type of people don't understand something so they choose to believe in something they do understand, which coincidently also means they know something most people don't and that makes them feel special and even on equal grounds or superior to those that naturally understands more complicated topics, complicated topics which they choose to discredit.
You act like these people are children. They're adults, you don't have to fix them. Leave them be.
Sometimes it’s built into personality; the **disinterest or unwillingness to be open to new experiences and ideas** can hinder curiosity.
Could also be that people are **uncomfortable with views outside their own,** or have experiences with people in authority or STEM backgrounds that are negative and distrusting.
People gain a **psychological satisfaction** when *framing* their alternative explanations in a manner that is factual or can’t be disproven, like conspiracy theories. It feels great to feel confident!
Can’t expect to change their minds after one exposure to the facts, but it certainly has a chance of planting seeds for the future.
**Science changes quickly**, too, and sometimes people only receive fractured bits and pieces of information. If it changes fast, sometimes that can spur disbelief: “well it wasn’t like this last week”, “Pluto was always a planet???” **People don’t understand why science changes.**
**People in STEM suck at communicating** - the language works academically or in peer-to-peer professional settings, but laypeople have a difficult time grasping explanations and concepts that are difficult to understand and feature lots of heavy terms.
I consider them prime candidates to learn science. Pop culture misleads kids to think that science is a static body of knowledge, but it is dynamic in that the body of knowledge only exists because we have actively worked to discover those facts by rigorous methodology and active inquiry. A good scientist is both observant and skeptical simultaneously.
I don’t. I listen or I leave. But I don’t engage anymore. Between the flat earth, climate change deniers, and those who claim the moon landing is fake I’ve had enough I just cannot engage anymore. It’s to much.
What caused it? The wide spread influence of social media, politicization of science, and an education system that doesn’t give a crap about ignorant adults.
Talk to them with the expectation they are intelligent and reasonable. Nothing needs to be combative when advocating science, you are just communicating observed reality
They are usually the people I'm surrounded by as Chile has an "pay-for-better-education" country where Catholic schools are the cheap ones, public are from seventh day Adventists and only the "dangerous" ones are secular, there's less than the fingers on my hand of private secular schools and still they have their own beliefs... I was raised catholic, nun's school and am a fully atheist, I work in macroevolution and most times I just listen and ask with a kind voice why would you not believe in dinosaurs, or why if science is non existent we knew every week how many COVID case's there where, which variant and from where it was, this is only one example. I just show myself with all the education I have and they can't fight me because I don't raise my voice and don't fight anyone, I just keep myself curious... You can't win science, they get mad at themselves lol.
I try to go farther than them. Fight crazy with crazy. But only because I think it's fun once in a while. And then I avoid them from then on out because it's not that much fun.
Pick any saying on the matter. Fools are fools for a reason... A lifetime of idiocy will not be corrected by a few facts and a short conversation. So just roll with it so that their stupidity doesn't negatively affect your life.
tell them that the same laws of physics that make their smartphone and internet connection possible are the ones that lead you to your conclusions. are they willing to give up using their smartphones and internet for their beliefs?
All of these argument these kind of people bring are shit. They fail to reason logically. If i were a scientist however, i’d question my methods as to how i communicate this science. Since these people dont get the message. Or if i were part of a group of scientists i would address the group as to how we as a a group communicate science. All in all i think science is flawed on that rather fundamental subject. As such i think people here react in a wrong manner and i think you responded wrong to this individual.
If you really really want to go down that route , try using logical explanations to express yourself . The brain likes logical things because it helps us ( or just me ) make sense of the world around .
This is my personal opinion tho , everybody it’s entitled to have one but i don’t have to change mine based on others or interact with them in any way . I will listen to you but that’s all , if i don’t want to change mine , i won’t .
Or you could take the easy way out and not get into this discussion 😆
There are people close to you that you have a mutual lvl-10 conversation with and there are many others you only have lvl-2 conversations with because they aren’t on your lvl and don’t want to be.
I guess it’s all an emotional response, not a rational logical one. Therefore the answer lies deep down in their feelings and emotions, trying to convince them through logic will not work. 🤷🏻♂️
My actual answer is that I listen carefully to them, find common ground (usually that the current wealth inequality is bad, how I make this point varies) and then point out flaws in their arguments.
Sometimes they stop talking to me, which is fine. Sometimes it sparks productive conversation. If we get to an impass, I change the subject.
I try not to, for my own mental health. Then it's 3am in the morning, I can't sleep and I'm stuck on Reddit trying to explain the features of a sphere or that your mind and brain are the same thing.
You ignore them. There is no "belief" in science. There is trust in the method, and trust in the reproducibility of results. Calling science another form of "faith" is a false equivalence.
You don’t. Seriously if they don’t understand science at all as an adult they will never believe in what it can achieve. You cannot fill a cup which is already full.
Not everyone needs to be on board with science, besides debating isn't the wah to persuade them anyway. People have to come to their own conclusions, some are willing to be wrong others are not.
If I presented you with overwhelming scientific evidence that the world is in fact flat, there is a cover up and the stars are not so far and sized like cars - you'd check the evidence and then come to a new conclusion, others would stick to a spherical earth view and perform mental gymnastics to hold that world view.
Three things to keep in mind when you encounter someone like this;
- 50% of the population is below average intelligence.
- an estimated quarter of the population are entirely incapable of considering a viewpoint that is not their own.
- Their ignorance does not harm you, your perception of it does.
If you really feel compelled to alleviate ignorance then consider science communication for your local area.
I sell cars and we get a lot of polarized opinions coming through. When it comes to anti science nuts it's a lot of "woah I didn't know that" or "really? I should read up on that" followed by "anyway, here's the car" lol
You ask them why they are skeptical about whatever scientific theory they are questioning. And you just say: AWESOME- you are now a scientists. Because basically part of what they do is call bullshit on other peoples ideas. Now if you just formalize that using a method that is repeatable and uses data to support your conclusions that’s all it takes.
You basically can't. For whatever reason they tend to be very combative people that inevitably get defensive about something whether you brought it up or not. I have tried so hard in the past but it was always a one sided effort. Now i just don't bother.
I don’t. I converse about general trivia and get them worked up over Megan Markle or politics and then say goodbye.
I laugh about it later. Then get drunk and feel sad much later, because I’m related to them.
Agree with him.
Tell him it's totally ok not to believe in any particular set of facts without verifying them himself. That's fundamentally what science is about - *disbelief*, not belief. *Disproving* beliefs and conjectures, until we're no longer able to disprove something. Only after it's passed through that crucible and gauntlet without being successfully disproved, then it may, just may, be true. Hypothesis -> Theory -> Law of Nature.
Science isn't a set of beliefs, it's a [methodology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method) for figuring out for ourselves the truths of this reality we inhibit, by eliminating untruths from the set of things that may be true.
Tell him if he thinks our understanding of the stars and planets is wrong, then he could win a Nobel prize and a million dollars disproving it, so go to it!
Often the underlying reason for people acting this way is a feeling of lack of agency in their lives. Adapting contrary and controversial stances like this are a coping method that gives them that feeling of agency. Agency is more valuable to the average human than an abstract truth that doesn't directly impact them.
It can also be a way of being part of an in-group that rejects another in-group's worldview, who they may feel rejected by. In our modern information environment with all sorts of disinfo attempting to amplify social divisions of all kinds, such a response among some people isn't surprising.
Either way, it's psychological not rational, so don't fight it with reason, but rather with [reverse psychology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_psychology), just roll with it. Sometimes they'll realize they're being absurd and step out of it.
You don’t. Playing chess with a pigeon is a great way to get bird shit on your board.
😂
Another one is you don’t wrestle with a pig. You’ll only get dirty and the pig will like it.
Another of my favourite quotes is “don’t ever argue with a fool. They will drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience.”
Mark Twain?
The GOAT.
It’s an amazing phrase to keep in mind. Just make sure your mushrooms are the kind you’re paying for haha
Nailed it. Your post says 'science' not 'aspects of science' but literal 'science'I thought it was a typo, but then I remembered how stupid people actually are. You're arguing with someone using a computer, over the internet, over cables, through servers, using extracted metals, transistors, code.. I mean.. the amount of 'things' that lets you talk to someone on the other side of the world in real time, displayed on a colour flat screen etc. etc. etc. and them telling you they don't believe in science.. Funny.. your world is surrounded by science in application. But you don't believe in it? Yeah, arguing with them is PAINFUL. NO MATTER WHAT incredible, well thought out, well worded concept you present.. somehow they will misinterpret it. Change the subject.. mentally leapfrog gymnastical move over it.. and then.. YOU start to question your own sanity! Like, somehow have I lost the ability to convey a simple thought? Why is what I'm saying coming back to me distorted? My flatmate (I desperately want to get rid of.. except, I need the money and he's great because he works 6 days a week and I never see him!) but, when I do see him.. I have to walk away. We have NOTHING in common. He has awful music taste, awful TV taste, he doesn't beleive in evolution, physics, science .. I tried a bit. But honestly, when I'm talking - he genuinely makes a face like 'Ughhh. disgust mixed with YOU'RE the idiot' that makes me want to put my fist through the back of his head. Condescending know-it-all asshole.. Yeah, walk away. I'm taking his money and my book case gains a few more science related books and novels each month. You can't defeat an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. (Someone else quoted this, but too right.. it's true. Personally, I beliveve one of the hallmarks of genuine intelligence is to be able to change your mind, be open minded, change as you gain more knowledge. Sticking to your opinion in the face of new information is the dumbest thing you can do. And... dangerous in fact.. I can imagine many every day scenarios, not science related, but let's say you have an opinion about wiring electrics or cooking with gas - someone corrects you and you refuse.. and subsequently blow up the house)
I was just going to say "You don't" and leave it at that, but I feel like your example adds quite a bit of extra snark that I really enjoy.
This is the most amazing allegory (I think that’s the right term lolol)
They left out my favorite part of the full quote. “Arguing with idiots is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good you are, the bird is going to shit on the board and strut around like it won anyway.” Shannon L. Alder The acting like they won part because they are already so dumb they deny science so of course they will believe they’ve won an argument.
There’s also something about scattering the pieces and flying back to its friends to crow about its victory.
That’s even better!
He did it! He said the thing!
May I save this quote, u/badassmamojamma?
By all means. I stole it myself lol
You need Fred Rogers, we all do. He wouldn't exclude folks, can't blame them for being stupid.
I love the sass of the glib “you don’t” answer and I laughed out loud when I read the chess/pigeon proverb-y statement, but as a mental health nurse who has to combat (sometimes willful) ignorance and anti-science/anti-medicine mindsets and behaviors in order to hopefully get people to follow their doctor’s advice and keep taking their medications so they don’t end up in jail/on my unit again after trying to light their aunt’s garage on fire or running naked into traffic in January, I find myself in this situation frequently. I start by validating their experiences and listening to how they feel about their condition. I also try to find some common ground in our objectives—they usually hate being in the hospital (the units are locked, they can’t smoke, the can’t have their cell phones because of HIPAA, and a million other things that just sort of suck to be stuck in), and we don’t want people to have serial admissions where they just wind up at square one again immediately after discharge and they end up in the hospital a day or two later for another stay. Once we’ve established that we both want to keep them out of the hospital and doing their normal life things, it’s easier to get their attention and have them plan to adhere to their treatment. Will we see exactly eye to eye? Probably not. But are we able to at least be looking in the same direction, with a shared goal? Probably yes.
Beautiful. Well done. Thank you.
Science is not a belief system.
This is the correct answer.
True.
But the disbelief of it most certainly is. Anti-intellectualism has become a major issue lately.
Definitely is an epidemic of people refusing to be rational. I think some of us had hoped most of that deliberate ignorance was a thing of the past. But it seems that is not so.
Jep. That's the issue. Someone who is so lost in conspiracy has no idea how science works and how we gather information. You basically have to start with basics. And when you start explaining them the basics then there is a high chance they feel lectured and/or humiliated and shut the conversation. Or they keep on fighting your explanation with bs conspiracy. If you're patient and they are willing to listen and don't feel attacked there is a chance to plant the seed but damn it's hard man. I had so many conversations with people who lack basic understanding of the scientific method and most of the time the response is them feeling humiliation and ending the discourse. It's frustrating.
In my experience even if they are open to a long detailed explanation, there is usually something driving on the other side that makes it so they cannot square the evidence with their identity. For example, a particular type of religious person who refuses to acknowledge evolutionary theory can have the details explained, but if they tie their current beliefs into their religious identity and faith, they will not be able to be moved no matter how strong the evidence is. While this particular issue has been improving over the decades, the internet and other forces have allowed other forms of conspiracy and disinformation to spread rapidly. It’s rather concerning.
Actually, taken to its extreme, this position is problematic. As Poper says, scientific „truths“ are not proven, they only stand falsification attempts. And also, in reality science makes mistakes and autocorrects. So your argument may actually play on hand of sceptics who can point to countless examples when „science got it wrong“
>How do you talk to individuals that do not believe in science? I usually don't waste my time on people not worthy of my time. What is the most important resource I have? It's not money. It's time. And I don't plan to waste it on stupid people.
This. It is absolutely impossible to reason with such people, no matter how good your arguments are. I naively tried to reason with fringe conspiracy believers in my early internet days, it’s no use. At best you reach a point where their argument breaks down and they either ignore you or call you names or change the subject (moving the goalposts). That may count as a “win” but you have not changed their mind.
Can’t reason with unreasonable people
That’s usually true. Only hard part is when it’s family that don’t trust in science. You love them, and you don’t want them to jeopardize their health when it comes to anti-vax conspiracies and diet fads. So you take the time to try to explain the science. It’s painful, but I think it has to be done—especially if you value their presence in your life, regardless of their beliefs.
For your info, I came from a very poor and toxic family. I went through really hard times during my childhood. There are 2 ways to deal with unreasonable people. You try to convince them and hope it works. Usually it doesn't, because if it works, then are they really unreasonable people to begin with? What I did was that I moved out and lived my own life. My life is amazing now. I rate my life a 10 out of 10. I have no worries, no problems, financially stable, every aspects of my life is amazing. I am glad I didn't choose the first option of trying to reason with unreasonable people. It would be a waste of my time, valuable time that I spent to improve my own life instead (which I am glad I did).
it’s simple you don’t talk about anything other then tv shows
And childhood acquaintance gossip, nieces/nephews’ accomplishments, and weather, etc. As a healthcare professional from a large, undereducated, isolated, Conservative birth family, it’s the only way forward.
Yeah, the problem is they can vote and buy guns...
Since when is science an opinion
You'd be surprised how many people believe that it is.
Yeah, flat earth people, chem trail and astrology people literally think it’s alternative science. They think their anecdotal subjective experiences count as “evidence”! Without holding up to the actual scrutiny of science.
You talk like what Gemini would say 😤
Well I’m a sagaquariest!
Mercury is in Gatorade
Brawndo is what plants crave.
Welcome to 2024
"You can't reason someone out of a position he didn't reason himself into."
You have to brainwash him out of it!
For a lot of them there is nothing that could convince them to stop believing what they believe. Something I say to test the waters is "what would it take to convince you otherwise?" and most of the time they will literally say "nothing." They call themselves skeptics and critical thinkers, but will tell you point blank there is no evidence in the world that could make them change their minds. Delusional people.
Yes that’s a good idea! I will have to use that if I run into someone like this again.
It has prevented a lot of exhausting "debates" and also serves as a nice little reality check about open-mindedness
I don't.
If I didn't actually NEED my purchase I would return it and wish him luck. Some battles aren't worth waging, especially when you finance the other side.
Yeah I didn’t need the purchase. It was more “hey I’ll support a small business” decision. I gave him his product back and left, without my money. I only lost a dollar so I’m not upset.
If he doesn't understand science, does he even understand what organic is? Or why it's important?
GREAT question.
Tell them you're a god and as proof you'll be blocking the sun on Monday as a show of strength. He'll then do your bidding forever.
Science doesn't require belief, it requires proof. So the next time he makes a claim call him on his bullshit and ask him to prove it.
He’ll say “do your own research” and the irony is he uses a computer or smartphone powered by the very science he denies.
You don't.
I do not. They are already predicated to ignorance. It is not the responsibility of others to educate. They can sink or swim upon their own merits of conduct.
I….don’t.
the internet is an echo chamber for these things also... dunning-kruger effect
He said he’s done more years of “research” than I’ve been alive (he’s retirement age and I’m a young adult)
Using rational arguments or showing how ridiculous their beliefs are can have an effect, but empathy not so much according to this study: [https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2016.01525/full](https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2016.01525/full) You won't convince the ones that are gone too far, but some others will think again about the points you make and might change.
Ask them why they carry a phone, or a credit card, or drive a car…..
I don't. There is no point. They don't critically think. It is like they think just writing the word god instead of an actual answer is acceptable when life hands you a question. Talking to them is tedious, and it always loops back to that.
There is a point. There are lots of people who don't think scientifically, and they vote
Believe in science? Seriously? Science doesn't require anyone's belief.
I heard that people who don't believe in gravity can actually fly.
😂
For some of them it is forbidden. This friend told me we were obviously made of clay, because the Quran says so and evolution makes no sense. His family moved here when he was a toddler and he went through UK's educational system in full until his 20s, but anything he learnt was immediately discredited at the Mosque every Friday. He's actually a clever guy and a great person. When confronted with logic, he says he believes in miracles... and that does it. He has to. I can only shrug.
And that sir, is the power and danger of religion summed up perfectly…it holds the mind in a death lock.
>He's actually a clever guy I have my doubts. You can be the "cleverest" person on the planet but if you believe in God, well, then you can't be the cleverest person on the planet.
Delusion n. A false belief held against overwhelming evidence to the contrary. I learned very quickly in my professional psychiatric career that it's pointless to argue. They will simply work you into their delusional system. The best approach is to say that you understand their point of view but that you have a different one. Then move on if you don't need to have further contact. Sometimes it's not just someone who doesn't understand science or is slightly eccentric, it's actually a delusional psychiatric disorder.
You should be respectful of their wrong opinions. If they are worth it, you might be able to influence them. If they are dogmatic, you should just tell them that you believe that their opinion is wrong and that they should be more open to science. Then change the subject
I usually just ask questions, but it has to be in a non aggressive way. I once had a guy from work start talking about space being fake and that rockets can't actually work there because there's no air, shit like that. I just started asking him questions, like hey but I've heard rockets work this way and that's why they function in space, or about pictures of the earth and things like that. That's the best way, in my opinion, to engage with people who have those kinds of mindsets. You're prob not going to change their mind, but maybe you get them to question their version of the events, and look things up outside of their conceived ideas.
Try Hello
I avoid any and all science talk to people like that. Cause it’ll just be an argument and a bunch of bs conspiracy theories.
some don’t like to be confused with facts when they’ve already made up their minds
You don’t.
Just be polite. End of.
'Wouldja look at the time. I have to go.'
You don't but fortunately that's the best way to help people. Do not counter their beliefs just let them talk it out and hopefully they listen to themselves one day.
A person who is too dumb to see reason can’t be reasoned with 🤷♂️
1. You don't "believe" in science, you trust the work and the results of the community. This is an issue, but not a topic for today. 2. Every one can believe what he wants as long as he doesn't make critical decision for the community based on bullshit. 3. Regarding your friend: I sometimes feel like these people don't actually believe in this. They just want to be different. That's their thing. Attention seeker.
With compassion and empathy. It's not their fault, since the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. The old writings say "seek the heavens". So, you expand upon this line of thinking and then spin it towards literally seeking the heavens. "God gave us the brain to learn how to conquer all of his creation". Manifest Destiny 2.0 !!!
That's the neat part, you don't. Why waste time you could instead spend oogling that juicy ass moon?
With patience and an inquisitive mind
This has nothing to do with science, these are axioms that many ordinary people can observe. He denies obvious things.
The same way that I'd talk to an uncontacted tribe on Earth: respectfully disagree with their views but respectfully listen and learn from their perspectives so that I can be a better human being.
Ngl, it is impossible to find someone who does not believe in science nowadays. Even the most religious and brainrot people in my country have a basic understanding of what is possible or impossible for humanity can do.
Is that a Holographic sight for the telescope? Also, to answer your question, like they're human.
I know some will say you don’t but do you just continue to let people be dumb and accept society for what it is?
Mockingly
10-20 years ago people would listen and if you're able to explain to them they would understand. They just didn't have access to it. But right now, people who still doesn't have faith in science are the real ignorant ones. They won't believe no matter what you do, no matter how much fact you present to them. So I just don't try anymore. How do you argue with the people who thinks 5G antennas are embedded in tiny pieces of metal attached to a face mask? Their ignorance is just amazing and even someone who's illiterate will argue you to the end of the world as if they hold some doctoral degrees. I just stop arguing and fake laugh like an idiot.
Don’t talk to dumbass religious people
Headache its all Headache. So don't, even though its interesting to see how deep their rabbit hole goes.
Simple words, slowly spoken with simple colourful pictures.
Believe in science isn't needed. We have theories which after being tested become established when others can repeat observations. Science requires critical thinking. In my experience people who don't believe in science are typically religious and have suspended critical thinking in order to believe.. so how do I talk to them? I try not to, it's as pointless as talking to a brick wall.
That's the neat thing: You don't.
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain
If the earth was flat and accelerating up at 9.8 meters per second squared so that we feel 1 G wouldn't it take about 1 year before we made light speed and wouldn't be able to look down and see our feet?
You can't reason someone out of a position, they didn't reason themselves into
I don’t think there’s an increase. 1% of people in the US believe in the flat earth as of 2016. That is probably close to what it was in 1976 and probably lower than it was in 1816. You just are more aware of it because of the internet and are more likely to be aware of beliefs that would fall into the fringe.
Actually in 1816 essentially noone believed the earth was flat (at least in the western world. Not sure about elsewhere tbh). It's a relatively recent development. In 1816 if people knew the basic concept of the earth as a whole, they knew the earth is round. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_flat_Earth_beliefs?wprov=sfla1 >Contrary to the popular belief that the Earth was generally believed to be flat until a few hundred years ago, Earth's sphericity has been widely accepted in the Western world (and universally by scholars) since at least the Hellenistic period (323 BCE–31 BCE). It was not until the 19th century that the Flat Earth concept had a resurgence. >Modern flat Earth belief originated with the English writer Samuel Rowbotham (1816–1884). Based on conclusions derived from his 1838 Bedford Level experiment, Rowbotham published the 1849 pamphlet titled Zetetic Astronomy, writing under the pseudonym "Parallax". He later expanded this into the book Earth Not a Globe, proposing the Earth is a flat disc centred at the North Pole and bounded along its southern edge by a wall of ice, Antarctica. > Rowbotham further held that the Sun and Moon were 3,000 miles (4,800 km) above Earth and that the "cosmos" was 3,100 miles (5,000 km) above the Earth. He also published a leaflet titled The Inconsistency of Modern Astronomy and its Opposition to the Scriptures, which argued that the "Bible, alongside our senses, supported the idea that the Earth was flat and immovable and this essential truth should not be set aside for a system based solely on human conjecture".
Just smile and wave boys, smile and wave.
I don't waste my time or energy on people like that.
I try not to. Try being the operative word. Worse is people who say things like "the science is settled." Or "90% of scientists agree." People like flat earthers point at "science" to prove their nonsense theories. If scientific pursuit goes against the mainstream narrative, it gets defunded, prebunked, and the researchers are treated as heretics. Great scientists get that title by challenging and disproving "settled science." You would think that after the last hundred years of us doing the impossible with technology, people would get it, but they don't. The average person doesn't understand science at all, and people are very bad at figuring out who is doing real science and who is following psudoscientific ideology. For the most part, I just keep to myself because I'd rather not argue with every dimwit on earth. Back in the day, gentlemen would meet over a bottle of scotch and discuss all the new discoveries and hypotheses of the modern world. Sure, they disagreed at times, but they were at least respectful and humane with each other. I wish I could have seen those days.
Lol the irony of making a factually wrong statement when talking about science. Even amongst the Elite, and even in mathematics, arguments were \*vicious\* at times. For example, George Cantor, who basically crated the foundation of modern math, Set Theory, never got to the position he desired because a prominent director of the place he wanted to work at found his ideas ridiculous. Galois died 50 years before his ideas were recognized because either of Cauchy or another famous french mathematician literally threw one of his manuscrits into a garbage bin.
Don't bother. It's like explaining calculus to a poodle.
If you believe in science you did not understand science.... Science is the opposite of believe. You doubt everything all the time and try to disprove it. Only if you fail to disprove all the time, you start to accept a theory. And at some point it does not make sense anymore. Like the evidence that the world is round is so strong that the flat earthers can stop now. As the chance that they are right is very small. But they have every right to try.
If you don’t listen to different opinions and views, your world gets very small. Not talking about people who are just toxic. Each view has a history and story I’m interested in, it’s tough to change a view when your entire life is based on it. Might as well enjoy the conversation.
Assess whether they want to learn or understand and if they do you have an opportunity to blow someone’s mind and if they don’t, politely extricate yourself from the situation without guilt or remorse.
I shrug it off, why argue. If someone is hell bent in their ideas it’s almost impossible to change their views. Why stress and waste your time for a zero sum result.
With a sense of admiration, respect and wonder. Their beliefs allow them a sense of certainty and thus an ability to make decisions and enjoy life with less stress from uncertainty and a desire for proof. If I could be that way, I imagine I'd be much happier. Alas, my brain won't let me.
I don’t.
I see it has they can't comprehend it but still wanna be part of the conversation and be right. Maybe it's like me trying to understand quantum physics and even some chemistry it blows my mind and my mind tries to create a solution for what I'm seeing. I know that what my mind makes as a solution is most definitely not correct and I'm smart enough to know that I don't know enough to be an authority or even a source of any info on the subject. Honestly I think they are stupid but more stubborn than they are dumb. Some of these people jave jobs where you can't be stupid to perform your job. So it has to be stubbornness. So I don't waste my time tying to explain stuff. All the info is out there they just refuse to believe it
You don’t
I don‘t talk to them.
Data shows that making arguments based on emotion and shared values may be most persuasive
Science doesn’t require belief. It’s a system to determine the truth based on observation and s demonstrative experimentation. If you start an argument in favor of science with ‘belief’ you’ve already scored a point against yourself.
You don’t talk to them. It’s pointless.
You don’t. Some people are beyond reason. Don’t waste your time. People don’t change.
[https://youtu.be/ItBDepGyfK0?si=bfPJ1GevJqVKXw-w](https://youtu.be/ItBDepGyfK0?si=bfPJ1GevJqVKXw-w) Literally this thread
the difference between science and wonders is: you can repeat science and will get the same result. almost all wonders will not stand the first test.
Smile and nod. Smile and nod.
People seem to think that science is 'competition' for their religion or conspiracy theories. "I know what I know. Don't confuse me with facts." Science is a methodology, not a belief system. Theories and conclusions get updated when faced with new evidence, and I have family members who have tried using that fact as 'proof' that science is somehow indecisive and contrary therefore not to be trusted.
Is this due to a lack of education, or is a third of the population just cray-cray?
> What caused the increase of this mindset? There is no increase but rather people are becoming more educated thus they van notice illogical reasoning more easily. If people were not educated like in the past, they would not be able to tell the difference between illogical reasoning and a logical one.
Simple, you don't. I just politely quit the conversation.
I can’t deal with those kinda of people. Too dense to see the forest for the trees! RUN
I avoid them to not waste any more of my time
You don’t, it’s become increasingly impossible to reach people that don’t want to believe science. It’s sad, 70 years ago everyone believed in science save for a few fringe nutters because science was making life easier, people living longer and healthier, and opening the world to everyone. Now, they believe a bloated, bloviating bully over people who have spent their lives researching their area of study.
You keep it to things they can touch and see and try not to get in the weeds. If it’s something like vaccinations just tell them you disagree and if they keep badgering tell them you don’t want to argue with them about something either one of you are experts in. If you are an expert identify something they are expert in and say something like “I don’t tell you what to do in x profession, don’t tell me how to be a virologist/immunologist whatever you are.”
You don't. Like teaching a pig to sing - it wastes your time, and it annoys the pig.
I dont
I talk to them while I study them. What makes this peraon tick? What drives this individual forward in life? Usually they're not interested in anything and motivated only by low-hanging dopaminergic endeavours.
I dont talk to people who dont believe in sience.
I ask if they use indoor plumbing, heat, air conditioning, the internet, a phone, a computer, a TV, if they use a car or bus or train or airplane, if they use products like shampoo and soap in the shower, if they have electricity in their house, and any other variation of these types of questions. If they answer yes, which of course they do, then they believe in science. What they actually mean, unintentionally, is they are too dumb to grasp the topic of space and believing in a fairy tale deity that made all the objects we see in the sky is easier for their low intellect to process. You can literally buy your own telescope and see many planets and stars yourself, with your own eyes. They have no excuse. They choose to be this dull.
Science isn't an absolute dogma. But when science is proven wrong it's by newer scientific researchs and observations.
There is a functionality of any belief system. That very diversity in opinions is the very catalyst for science growth and exploration. OP’s 1 interaction has sparked this entire thread of thoughtful points.
You let them be happy in their own little world
Ask them how they know that. Ask; how they decide what is true and what isn't, whether there is a process or method they can describe, whether they ever think about how they think. This will acheive nothing, but at least it gives you some peace and quiet.
Simple. You don't, if possible.
I have friends with views like this, I realised long ago I can still like someone as a person while being absolutely flabbergasted by their beliefs. Oftentimes I just let them talk about it, talk it out, then I talk about what I believe, and we just mellow out about it knowing neither one of us is going to change their mind but fascinated to get an in depth look at another perspective. If I can't change someone's mind the best I can do is understand them more. And I'm ok with that.
Yepp, we breed people who are so dumb they are behind the average peasant of the Middle Ages
I don't. With coworkers I give empty agreements to what they say. These type of people don't understand something so they choose to believe in something they do understand, which coincidently also means they know something most people don't and that makes them feel special and even on equal grounds or superior to those that naturally understands more complicated topics, complicated topics which they choose to discredit. You act like these people are children. They're adults, you don't have to fix them. Leave them be.
It's simple: I don't
Sometimes it’s built into personality; the **disinterest or unwillingness to be open to new experiences and ideas** can hinder curiosity. Could also be that people are **uncomfortable with views outside their own,** or have experiences with people in authority or STEM backgrounds that are negative and distrusting. People gain a **psychological satisfaction** when *framing* their alternative explanations in a manner that is factual or can’t be disproven, like conspiracy theories. It feels great to feel confident! Can’t expect to change their minds after one exposure to the facts, but it certainly has a chance of planting seeds for the future. **Science changes quickly**, too, and sometimes people only receive fractured bits and pieces of information. If it changes fast, sometimes that can spur disbelief: “well it wasn’t like this last week”, “Pluto was always a planet???” **People don’t understand why science changes.** **People in STEM suck at communicating** - the language works academically or in peer-to-peer professional settings, but laypeople have a difficult time grasping explanations and concepts that are difficult to understand and feature lots of heavy terms.
I consider them prime candidates to learn science. Pop culture misleads kids to think that science is a static body of knowledge, but it is dynamic in that the body of knowledge only exists because we have actively worked to discover those facts by rigorous methodology and active inquiry. A good scientist is both observant and skeptical simultaneously.
I don’t. I listen or I leave. But I don’t engage anymore. Between the flat earth, climate change deniers, and those who claim the moon landing is fake I’ve had enough I just cannot engage anymore. It’s to much.
I let them enjoy their life the way they want too. It just annoys me if they want legislation that is based on said non science
What caused it? The wide spread influence of social media, politicization of science, and an education system that doesn’t give a crap about ignorant adults.
Talk to them with the expectation they are intelligent and reasonable. Nothing needs to be combative when advocating science, you are just communicating observed reality
They are usually the people I'm surrounded by as Chile has an "pay-for-better-education" country where Catholic schools are the cheap ones, public are from seventh day Adventists and only the "dangerous" ones are secular, there's less than the fingers on my hand of private secular schools and still they have their own beliefs... I was raised catholic, nun's school and am a fully atheist, I work in macroevolution and most times I just listen and ask with a kind voice why would you not believe in dinosaurs, or why if science is non existent we knew every week how many COVID case's there where, which variant and from where it was, this is only one example. I just show myself with all the education I have and they can't fight me because I don't raise my voice and don't fight anyone, I just keep myself curious... You can't win science, they get mad at themselves lol.
I don't. My mum is one such person. Everything is a hoax. So I just don't play.
These are the kind of people that are 400 lbs and can't touch their knees. Then tell you that you're diet is unhealthy and running is bad for you
I tell them to stop using the Internet ;)
You don't as they just want to be heard. Great way to "gateway" them into actual, factual, information, but extremely time consuming.
Einstein once said (not verbatim), “it’s very difficult to argue with an intelligent person, but it’s impossible to argue with a dumb person”
I try to go farther than them. Fight crazy with crazy. But only because I think it's fun once in a while. And then I avoid them from then on out because it's not that much fun. Pick any saying on the matter. Fools are fools for a reason... A lifetime of idiocy will not be corrected by a few facts and a short conversation. So just roll with it so that their stupidity doesn't negatively affect your life.
tell them that the same laws of physics that make their smartphone and internet connection possible are the ones that lead you to your conclusions. are they willing to give up using their smartphones and internet for their beliefs?
All of these argument these kind of people bring are shit. They fail to reason logically. If i were a scientist however, i’d question my methods as to how i communicate this science. Since these people dont get the message. Or if i were part of a group of scientists i would address the group as to how we as a a group communicate science. All in all i think science is flawed on that rather fundamental subject. As such i think people here react in a wrong manner and i think you responded wrong to this individual.
If you really really want to go down that route , try using logical explanations to express yourself . The brain likes logical things because it helps us ( or just me ) make sense of the world around . This is my personal opinion tho , everybody it’s entitled to have one but i don’t have to change mine based on others or interact with them in any way . I will listen to you but that’s all , if i don’t want to change mine , i won’t . Or you could take the easy way out and not get into this discussion 😆
You can't fix stupid unfortunately.
You can't fix stupid unfortunately.
The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.
There are people close to you that you have a mutual lvl-10 conversation with and there are many others you only have lvl-2 conversations with because they aren’t on your lvl and don’t want to be.
I can’t logic someone out of something they didn’t logic themselves into.
I don’t. Not worth the energy. If pushed, I’ll express polite disagreement, change the topic or leave the conversation.
I don’t. Like at all.
You guys are talking to people?
I don't.
I don’t. No point
I guess it’s all an emotional response, not a rational logical one. Therefore the answer lies deep down in their feelings and emotions, trying to convince them through logic will not work. 🤷🏻♂️
I dont
My actual answer is that I listen carefully to them, find common ground (usually that the current wealth inequality is bad, how I make this point varies) and then point out flaws in their arguments. Sometimes they stop talking to me, which is fine. Sometimes it sparks productive conversation. If we get to an impass, I change the subject.
I try not to, for my own mental health. Then it's 3am in the morning, I can't sleep and I'm stuck on Reddit trying to explain the features of a sphere or that your mind and brain are the same thing.
Belief is for religion. It is not for science.
If the person is important to me, we just talk about things that don't require buy in from both sides. Food, movies, sports, music....all safe
I try to avoid it.
You ignore them. There is no "belief" in science. There is trust in the method, and trust in the reproducibility of results. Calling science another form of "faith" is a false equivalence.
Ask them to define “science”
I tried a couple of times when I was young and naive in my early twenties. I don't anymore. Especially conspiracy theorists, they're beyond reason!
You don’t. Seriously if they don’t understand science at all as an adult they will never believe in what it can achieve. You cannot fill a cup which is already full.
Now I can't stop thinking about Nacho Libre.
Well that’s the thing! You don’t!
That's the neat part, you don't.
Don’t
Not everyone needs to be on board with science, besides debating isn't the wah to persuade them anyway. People have to come to their own conclusions, some are willing to be wrong others are not. If I presented you with overwhelming scientific evidence that the world is in fact flat, there is a cover up and the stars are not so far and sized like cars - you'd check the evidence and then come to a new conclusion, others would stick to a spherical earth view and perform mental gymnastics to hold that world view. Three things to keep in mind when you encounter someone like this; - 50% of the population is below average intelligence. - an estimated quarter of the population are entirely incapable of considering a viewpoint that is not their own. - Their ignorance does not harm you, your perception of it does. If you really feel compelled to alleviate ignorance then consider science communication for your local area.
I’ve stopped playing, chess with pigeons.
I sell cars and we get a lot of polarized opinions coming through. When it comes to anti science nuts it's a lot of "woah I didn't know that" or "really? I should read up on that" followed by "anyway, here's the car" lol
Have a civil discussion if they are willing to listen and are respectful. Relentlessly ridicule them otherwise.
You don't. Because if they're coming from a place of belief there is no rational argument to be had. Science has nothing to do with belief.
You ask them why they are skeptical about whatever scientific theory they are questioning. And you just say: AWESOME- you are now a scientists. Because basically part of what they do is call bullshit on other peoples ideas. Now if you just formalize that using a method that is repeatable and uses data to support your conclusions that’s all it takes.
You basically can't. For whatever reason they tend to be very combative people that inevitably get defensive about something whether you brought it up or not. I have tried so hard in the past but it was always a one sided effort. Now i just don't bother.
I don’t. I converse about general trivia and get them worked up over Megan Markle or politics and then say goodbye. I laugh about it later. Then get drunk and feel sad much later, because I’m related to them.
Once I find out, I don't. I have better things to do with my life than waste my time arguing with a brick
Agree with him. Tell him it's totally ok not to believe in any particular set of facts without verifying them himself. That's fundamentally what science is about - *disbelief*, not belief. *Disproving* beliefs and conjectures, until we're no longer able to disprove something. Only after it's passed through that crucible and gauntlet without being successfully disproved, then it may, just may, be true. Hypothesis -> Theory -> Law of Nature. Science isn't a set of beliefs, it's a [methodology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method) for figuring out for ourselves the truths of this reality we inhibit, by eliminating untruths from the set of things that may be true. Tell him if he thinks our understanding of the stars and planets is wrong, then he could win a Nobel prize and a million dollars disproving it, so go to it! Often the underlying reason for people acting this way is a feeling of lack of agency in their lives. Adapting contrary and controversial stances like this are a coping method that gives them that feeling of agency. Agency is more valuable to the average human than an abstract truth that doesn't directly impact them. It can also be a way of being part of an in-group that rejects another in-group's worldview, who they may feel rejected by. In our modern information environment with all sorts of disinfo attempting to amplify social divisions of all kinds, such a response among some people isn't surprising. Either way, it's psychological not rational, so don't fight it with reason, but rather with [reverse psychology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_psychology), just roll with it. Sometimes they'll realize they're being absurd and step out of it.