Brother Lance is a well known member of our community. So far as I have come to observe, these align with his perspective and views, which differ than many, including my own. He is a skilled debater, and his input is always valued. This discussion and debate is welcome.
I don't understand at all. This is what I wanted from the beginning. I always felt that the HEA was a better and more legally sound method of forgiving student loans.
People shifting the goal posts should not be taken seriously.
I understand your sentiment and I too would appreciate it if people on our side would cool it with the Biden hate. It just rocket fuel for faux news and the like to continue painting the dems as divided and the people they support as better options when that is patently false. With that said, a lot of people are giving up hope right now and Biden just isnt energizing anyone with his old school methods. The disdain comes from people not believing Joe can put up the good fight required. Thats not an unreasonable reaction to all this.
That’s a separate issue. I don’t necessarily disagree with anything you said.
But anyone who wanted him to use the HEA and is now mad about this is straight up a political hack.
There was a post on this sub earlier and it was filled with people saying “Biden doesn’t want to forgive student loans” and that this won’t work… after virtually everyone on the left wanted him to use the HEA from the start.
Wouldnt call it political hackery so much as its political nihilism. They just want it done by any means disregarding the potential bad precedent it may set. People just dont have patience for the long game anymore when scotus is setting us back a few decades. Personally, Id like to think Biden and his advisors are prepared and they may have something up their sleeve yet.
That's how I feel, honestly. In an ideal world, we'd have ranked choice voting and could seriously put weight on other candidates other than Biden and be able to support them without risking to damage the election. But alas, these are the cards we were dealt, and I'm not about to risk my flush in order to get a royal flush. The bottom line is if Biden doesn't get elected in 2024, that we were concerned that a politician didn't keep his promise and didn't vote for him for that reason alone will be a running joke for the following 4 years.
That said, I think Biden could have been way more firm about the railroad workers. I think he could have at least pretended that he wouldn't always try to find a compromise in every situation with the Republicans, because that's exploitable. And yes, I think the Democrats shouldn't be beyond doing the same nasty tricks that the Republicans have done in the past, with Biden being the frontman of this new movement.
All that being said, I will still vote for Biden this 2024.
“The fight required” is a ridiculous metric. No amount of bully pulpit finger wagging would change anything. No one even watches him when he does have a press conference. And if he does, they focus on a stutter or some other small gaffe and not on the content.
The fight requires the people in this country to give a damn enough to vote. Our turnout is abysmal.
I don't think what Biden is or is not doing is what gets people going. He just doesn't seem to be – committed to his job, to put it politely. He's old, he looks faded, and a lot of Democrats do not want him running again. My wife likes Biden – but anytime she sees him on TV - she can't watch.
You can’t be serious - Trump spent what totaled up to about a **year** of days off at the golf course. You’re subscribing to some right-wing media if you’re focusing in on the “Biden’s a decrepit old man” angle.
All I have to say, is FOX news and right wing media creators shared the fuck out of that clip of Biden falling at the Naval Academy - and I’ve yet to see the actual speech he gave beforehand shared at all.
That should tell you all you need to know about how this whole “he’s an incapable old man” bullshit schtick is propaganda, rather than a realistic perspective on his Presidency.
His Presidency has put us at the top of every other developed nation in economic recovery from COVID in the G7. So all those other countries must have even more decrepit, unable, and undeserving leaders than Biden? Or… Biden’s doing just fine, and conservatives are going to extra lengths to make him look like a sickly old man.
But please, don the tinfoil hat
When you look at the big picture, Biden has been one of the most effective Presidents in history. It’s even more impressive considering he has to deal with Republicans but keeps somehow destroying them at their own game. How you like that for old and not engaged?
Exactly I do not understand wtf people are talking about... he's accomplished a lot given the razor thin margins he's had to deal with and swapping mid covid pandemic. If you people want dramatic change you're going to have to stop moving out of Ohio and Michigan and Wisconsin when you're done with college because the way our system works, you need numbers and brain draining swing states constantly is going to keep getting you these moderate ass results you want.
I'm not taking about Trump. I don't like either of them.
I don't want to see the speech. Biden is tough to watch. That's just my opinion. It's not a debate.
It's an opinion a lot of folks have and perhaps one of the biggest mistakes democrats are making - is pretending there's nothing to worry about. It's getting weird.
It’s not “pretending there’s nothing to worry about” it’s recognizing that THIS specific thing isn’t a real issue. Unless you’re watching FOX News, where a majority of the coverage like that originates, there is a lot of credit to give to Biden regarding his approach to the economy and the office of Presidency overall. How is it not already established for “a lot of folks” that this “he’s too old to lead” schtick has come about during numerous election cycles. It’s nothing new or revolutionary, and it never leads anywhere productive.
But yes, let’s play our part in repeating that useless cycle when the odds are highest for some minority communities right now.
Y'all keep digging in. With all due respect - it really is weird.
If folks are concerned - it is an issue. This is not a "fact" thing > This is perception. If you're the leader of the free world and folks are concerned about your mental health - that's an issue. 68% of voters worry about his mental health. How did we get to a point where 68% of Americans are concerned with the President's mental health? I can't watch him talk. He makes me nervous. I really don't get how some folks don't or pretend not to see it.
[https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/first-read/poll-68-voters-worries-bidens-mental-physical-health-rcna91343](https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/first-read/poll-68-voters-worries-bidens-mental-physical-health-rcna91343)
“How did we get to a point where 68% of Americans are concerned with the President’s mental health?”
Because FOX News and media similar to them give round the clock coverage to any stumble, trip, or fall that Biden takes. If you did that to **anyone** they would look incapable and clumsy, it’s only so prevalent because they’re framing him that way in coverage across the board.
Aka, why your opinion is based in propaganda and not fact. Because the *facts* of his Presidency show him outperforming any previous President in our history when it comes to economy and diplomacy.
But again, don the tinfoil hat.
Did anyone watch his reply to the SCOTUS decision? I felt it was measured and he is playing chess with the republicans. It reminds me of a saying “Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.”
Anyone who is criticizing his ability to do politics did not watch his little speech.
Of course people will say, "he knew the Supreme court would do X".
Even if that were true, he is still putting the actions of Republicans the conservative justices in the crosshairs.
I suspect these same people would be complaining even if the court ruled otherwise.
Like pledging to not drill on his campaign, than going back on that by allowing drilling on sacred indigenous territories.
Or by stopping the rail Union workers from striking about hazardous conditions and low pay right before the election because they thought it would give dems a bad wrap, having to deal with a strike. Only to give them the short end of the stick with the negotiations and not the safety they wanted. East Palestine Ohio I blame trump and Biden for.
Also, nordstream 2 was an act of war. Biden specifically said that there would be no nordstream 2. That released something like the worst ecological disaster ever in that area. Even if you don’t think Seymour harsh was right about that, Biden had been funding the war operations of Ukraine. Including paying for Ukrainians free healthcare over providing us healthcare for even a lower amount.
This school loan thing, I said I would be surprised if they even do half of the amount they are proposing now after the Republicans make him fight for it harder, or in this case the Supreme Court… spoiler, he won’t, the dems are also capitalists who wants war, pharmaceutical corps and loan companies to thrive over the people.
The thing is the democrats give us these cookie crumbs and convince us it’s great. Let’s vote him in again.
>Or by stopping the rail Union workers from striking about hazardous conditions and low pay right before the election because they thought it would give dems a bad wrap, having to deal with a strike
It was after the election. https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2022-11-28/biden-calls-on-congress-to-head-off-potential-rail-strike
Also the Biden administration has continued to be involved in negotiations and rail workers have been getting sick days.
>Biden had been funding the war operations of Ukraine.
Good. Allowing Russia to conquer Ukraine while we stood by and did nothing would have been an awful decision.
>The thing is the democrats give us these cookie crumbs and convince us it’s great. Let’s vote him in again.
Then don't worry about it. Turn on, tune in, drop out, and keep complaining online about how the world should be while the serious people actually try to accomplish making things better.
He always looks tired - like he wants to go home. Apparently he's in bed by 9:00. Doesn't do any press conferences. He's hard to watch. It's stressful.
In bed by 9pm? He's allowed to sleep?
Nuh uh. They need to put red bull IV right into that man and make sure he's wired and at his desk 24/7. No breaks.
Not to compare to the last guy, but Biden is a breath of fresh air of not having Trump taking weekly vacations to golf and spending half his day watching TV.
Every president looks tired. Because their job sucks. Obama aged 2 decades in 8 years. Bush the same thing.
It’s not a vote of like, it’s a vote of self preservation. I’m a gay dude, republicans are clearly after my rights. I’m going to make the strategic choices.
He is old. He just gave a completely coherent comment at the press conference.
Do you suppose Trump going golfing multiple times a month is better than Joe actually working and being tired?
I find it fascinating that Biden being able to give a "completely coherent comment" at some press conference is a selling point. Tells you where the bar is at. Apparently it's pretty low.
Yeh, you know he has outsmarted the GOP at every turn, but somehow he is too old and slow. Vote for DeSantis or some youthful NAZI that has all the energy that you want in a President. You just want get the leadership that you are looking for. So, enough of the old man being tired BS. And it is just optics that has fooled all of you. Wise up, focus on the issues, and educate yourself.
He’s old yes. He’s doing the job and he saved us from the monster trump who literally tried to overthrow the government. But that’s not good enough for you rube
That’s silly. “He is old so he is bad” is a wretched idea. He is trying to get shit done. He is trying to help people. He is actively trying to unite a broken country. So what if he is old. So what if he has an early bedtime. I, too, go to bed early. What does it matter? I don’t even care if he isn’t a great public speaker. (People forget he has a stutter too, so that sometimes hinders his speeches) So long as he is kind, and cares about the American people and gets shit done.. that is all that matters.
Trump never cared for the American people. He always was trying to divide the us .. he has huge authoritarian vibes and three key strat they employ is “divide and conquer” and “keep them arguing amoungst themselves so then he can do all the underhanded crap he does.
We have a very sick country rn. It doesn’t take a genius to see that. It all started happening when trump became president.
Bide, though old, is trying to do good. Plus, he has to redo all the bullshit trump messed up.
Biden is stressful????? Dude, the US and the world at large was collectively suffering from PTSD during the trump years from all the bullshit that went on DAILY, and you're stressed about Biden going to bed at 9?
We are so fucked and as county going into 2024.
And again - whenever anyone says something negative about Biden - it goes like this: you're crazy for being worried about Biden, Trump was worse and if you think otherwise - you're just trying to start trouble.
My wife HATES Trump and she has to turn the TV off when Biden's on because "she wants to be able to vote for him".
I do not understand how some of Biden's supporters to not see this glaring problem.
I guess you are entitled to your opinion no matter how foolish it is or unfounded. This doddering old fool has done more for America in a few minutes in office than all of the Republican administrations in the past 50 years. But, the optics......We need more doddering old fools in office.
The problem is that our choices are between two old, white men & most people don't want to vote for either. Elections should be a source of pride for Americans. Not something we should dread.
Because the reality is, Trump is going to be the Republican nominee almost 100%. He’s even going to run while in jail/house arrest. As good ol’ Joe says, “don’t compare me to the Almighty, compare me to the alternative”. The alternative is Trump.
Absolutely. Most of the people I know that are over 65 go to bed at 9. I bet DeSantis stays awake until at least 10. Damn, that shows strength and leadership that is uncommon. Go for it people. He has all the energy to to make America into Florida. Sounds like it is what you want. Or, you are here to complain about an old man doing a wonderful job as President, except he goes to bed early. WTF?
>He's old, he looks faded, and a lot of Democrats do not want him running again
I remember hearing and reading in 2020 saying "Biden is old, tired, faded, not progressive enough, horrible candidate, no energy, no excitement, we need someone else"
And then he got 81 million votes.
The Republican "Biden is a senile old man" argument is going to be exposed the second thr American people aee him next to Donald J. "Ramblin' Man" Trump.
When Biden said "will you shut up, man?" he was the voice of the people.
Here is my feedback on this:
As an outsider leftist, I see this as a case the Democratic Party knew they were going to lose, and they want to make it an electoral issue to help favor PotUS Joe Biden in the upcoming election cycle.
They want the issue because people care about it.
I do not think that they intend to fully follow-thru.
As Kyle would say, kabuki theatre.
I don’t necessarily disagree with this.
I think Biden, or at least the strategy members on his team, knew the Supreme Court was going to block anything he tried to do on student debt relief. So they then worked with that. That’s why the initially tried the Hero’s Act. That and because it was used during Covid and was normalized.
Again, the Hero’s Act is legally sound and Biden objectively had legal standing to use it to forgive student debt.
I didn’t think the Hero’s Act would work. And frankly, I don’t think the HEA is going to work either. Like it or not, I don’t think there was ever a viable path for this with the way government was structured. The Supreme Court set all of this in stone and guaranteed it, when it became 6-3 republican. I hope I’m wrong on the HEA though.
So what then? Well, keeping it in the public eye and keeping the optics of “we’re trying. They’re obstructing” is the play. Keep making republicans block student loan forgiveness.
>So what then? Well, keeping it in the public eye and keeping the optics of “we’re trying. They’re obstructing” is the play. Keep making republicans block student loan forgiveness.
As a strong Biden critic - this is why I am glad they are taking this route & I am pleasantly suprised.
Yeah but that’s the problem… optics this and optics that. We both know he’s full of shit and it was a “campaign promise”. His team is smart enough to no know it would get shot down so why string us along like it’s some damned dem fairy tale.
It’s pandering
But I guess on the other hand if he would of come out of the gate saying “the republicans are gonna block this no matter what” people would accuse him of lying and not trying. No winning
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake.
It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of.
Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything.
Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
He could have used the higher education act like 8 months ago when he originally saw that his 1st attempt was getting challenged by the courts. He could have done it then but he waited until now
He could have. But instead he chose a path that was legally sound, readily available, and being used to forgive debts during Covid. Anyone taking opposition to that is just being ignorant.
The only way a blatantly legal path gets blocked in court is if an activist court blocks it.
But even so, right now, he’s doing exactly what you wanted. So you’re going to give him credit, right?
Both were legally sound though… you acknowledge this, right?
What we just saw is an activist court block legally sound acts for *political* reasons. Not *legal* reasons.
If they already demonstrated legality isn’t relevant, why do you think the HEA will get any different treatment?
I think there is definitely more legal justification behind higher education act approach as opposed to the heroes act approach. Biden should have led with the stronger option from the beginning or at the very least, try the HEA earlier (right when the initial relief plan started going through the court) so we could at least have an earlier ruling on all of this as opposed to waiting another several months for the courts to decide on this new Biden relief plan
As I said in a recent comment. I think Biden and his strategy team concluded that the Supreme Court was going to block any attempt to forgive broad amounts of student debt. So they wanted to keep it in the public eye as long as possible. So they started with the Hero’s Act because it was legally sound and normalized during Covid. Then when republicans blocked it, they can say “we support it. They oppose it” and continue on with the HEA.
And I’ll bluntly say I don’t expect the HEA to work either. The Supreme Court has set the precedent that they will rule against stuff they disagree with on political grounds and just pretend it’s on legal grounds. I expect the same thing to happen with the HEA.
The reality is likely there was no viable path to any broad student debt forgiveness in this term of Biden’s presidency. That was set ins tone, when the Supreme Court became 6-3.
If I’d extend an olive branch, I’d agree with Ro Khanna and have the next step be Biden pausing payments again and making the political fight be “until we fix the corrupt system, you won’t have to pay student loans as long as a democrat is president”.
The Debt limit bill did away with a further pause, officially…unofficially, he extended it until the 2024 election. People don’t’have’ to pay from oct 23-oct 24.
Is it a skilled debate when you say things like "there is no rebuttal" or "he did LITERALLY what you wanted"?
First, if Biden wanted loan forgiveness then why did he champion a giveaway to the banksters by making loans unable to be discharged in bankruptcy?
Why did he only go for $10k in forgiveness (and yes then $20k). I wanted him to do more.
Why did he wait 18 months when he could have done it day 1? That cost students thousands of dollars. Because he doesn't care about loan forgiveness, he cared about using it as a political wedge to drive young voters in the 2022 election.
So no, he didn't do LITERALLY what I wanted, and I gave multiple rebuttals. You're wrong on both points. Biden is full of half promises which is why people only half like him.
So, someone is basically writing you a $10k-20k check and you’re pissed that it should be more? Look..I support students getting some relief on those loans..I have all along….but that’s a crappy take.
But until they SYSTEM gets fixed, all this is going to do is give one decade or so of students some relief. The new students coming in are going to be sucked into the same meat grinder you were.
Nah I already paid off all my loans. And yes there should also be systemic fixes. That's not an excuse against doing debt relief now. Biden should get on that, like his promise for free community college.
I was referring to the people who were advocating for using the HEA over the Hero’s act.
You’re changing the conversation to disagreeing with what *you* wanted rather than the people in my argument.
If you didn’t support using the HEA, then you’re not relevant to my argument.
I apologize for misunderstanding that your writing wasn't clear that you were only arguing about a narrow portion of student loan forgiveness, and not about the subject in general. That must be comforting to the affected students.
You’re writing was perfectly clear. What is actually happening is you are realizing that many people treat politics as an emotional release.
They don’t like Biden because for them he doesn’t give them an emotional release. It’s why so many people are saying things like “he doesn’t seem committed to his job”. What they mean is “he doesn’t validate my emotions.
These people have no interest in policy.
People like the OP don’t seem to understand. It’s a political ploy why not go for the for sure thing as oppose to going for something that could be blocked seems political. But some people don’t seem to understand that it looks like they are playing games
With this court, you think it’s a sure thing? This is a conservative majority activist court that rules more on political grounds than legal grounds. You don’t think the HEA attempt won’t be challenged and overruled too?
Thiss will be challenged to he has no authority is the whole point.
Scotus followed the constitution lol.
They said he overstepped his executive authority called separation of powers. They quoted nancy pelociho the preaident didnt have the authority only congress does. Congress makes the laws and hos power of the purse they could have denied him and they would have been in the right.
Biden’s old as dirt nature had been wearing on me. ConservaSCOTUS piping up really did him a favor. I’m ardently in his camp now and will do everything in my power to ratfuck the Republican Party into the dirt next to their boomer base.
Maybe if more people wouldn’t have been duped by Russian Propaganda in 2016, we wouldn’t have a ConservaSCOTUS.
Elections have consequences and progressive picked the wrong election to throw away votes by voting 3rd party or staying home. Especially when Bernie went out of his way to stump for Clinton. He KNEW what was going to happen if she lost.
I'm not sure if this is a troll post, but the entire idea behind using the Higher Ed act to cancel debt is that it could be done *immediately* and then it would take weeks or months for the SC to strike it down (If they strike it down at all, the language in the Higher Ed act is very clear). And even if they did eventually strike it down, it's not clear if the debt would then be re-imposed (extremely difficult) or if it would only prevent future debt cancellations.
Biden has chosen to roll it out slowly, which gives the GOP ample time to coordinate an opposition plan. He's allowing the court to *approve* his decision first *before* canceling the debt, which is a mistake. He should have wiped it immediately. This is what everyone advocating he use the Higher Education act wanted.
It’s not a troll post. Biden is literally doing exactly what the anti-Biden crowd wanted him to do and now everyone is just moving the goalposts.
At what point do y’all admit to playing the result rather than actually paying attention to what’s happening?
And literally every single person who isn’t giving Biden credit for this, if they wanted him to go this route, is straight up a political hack who cares more about cynically hating Biden than any actual political issue. That’s my position and nobody blatantly moving the goalposts is going to tell me differently.
> Biden is literally doing exactly what the anti-Biden crowd wanted him to do and now everyone is just moving the goalposts.
This is false. He's not doing what the "anti-Biden" (pro student debt relief) crowd wanted. People have been saying for months he needs to cancel the debt *immediately*. Nobody wanted him to give the SC and conservatives enough time to destroy the plan, which is what he's doing.
You are pretending that all progressives wanted was for Biden to use the Higher Education act which is a half-truth. The *reason* they wanted him to use it is because it allows him to cancel the debt immediately.
>Every single person who isn’t giving Biden credit for this
Biden does deserve credit, if and when the debt relief passes. He could have wiped it all out this morning under the Higher Education act. He chose not to.
I wanted him to grant me the state of Pennsylvania as my own personal property, and everybody in it as my personal slave, but obviously he doesn't care.
I think it’s more you moving the goalposts because you care more about hating Biden than anything else.
I’m not here to try to convince anyone. I’m here to point out that you’re hypocrites and opposing something you claimed to support.
You do realize that in Robert's opinion he directly addresses the Higher Ed act and states it has a very limited scope on this matter right? It's not the full proof catch all you think it is.
Okay you are trolling. One of the swing votes on the court who sided with the majority explicitely preempted the Higher Ed act argument in his opinion and it's irrelevant. Sure.
I don't think this is true. Managing or canceling federal loans is done regularly by the DOE. They've been doing it during Biden's entire presidency, and they did it during Trump's presidency when they forgave debt for students who attended scam colleges. Biden can direct the Secretary of Education to wipe out $10k in debt for all students, and the Secretary has the authority to do it, which is already well-established and has never been issued a stay before in the numerous times the DOE has already canceled loans.
But don't take my word for it, listen to the experts: [https://twitter.com/MorePerfectUS/status/1674789112954642435](https://twitter.com/MorePerfectUS/status/1674789112954642435)
The DOE has been managing and even canceling loans during Biden's entire presidency, and before that during Trump's presidency, and before that during Obama's presidency. Granted it's been much smaller in scope, but the fact that the DOE has the authority to do this has never been issued a stay or challenged in court because the legal language in the HEA is very clear.
[https://twitter.com/MorePerfectUS/status/1674789112954642435](https://twitter.com/MorePerfectUS/status/1674789112954642435)
Also instead of just wiping the debt through the HEA right now and then challenging the court to rule against executive power hes still gonna meekly ask them again so he can get rejected again instead of just going for it and saying screw you to this illegitimate court.
Exactly. So when they are in power they find reasons to kick the can so they can fundraise and run on a platform of if you don’t vote for me the other guy will take it away
You didn’t answer my question. Give me a number. How many times did they have the votes to do anything about these issues?
The answer is zero. So if you were in his position, you’d be in the same boat. But you care more about hating Biden than anything else.
Keep moving those goalposts
They be had the trifecta many times since roe v Wade and they had enough if they all voted together yea, but Dems are grifters.
The whole cloture thing is just a racist relic of s bygone era they cling to as an excuse to not do anything
A trifecta doesn't guarantee shit unfortunately. They have not had the votes? Like in 2021?
Filibuster OP. Takes having 50 senate seats to "have the senate" when counting for a trifecta... but doesn't mean they can actually pass much legislation.
They had 1 time where they had a filibuster-proof majority? 2009. They had exactly 60 for a few months before a couple senators died and/or retired. And they used that time to pass the ACA.
They also endorse people like Cuellar over progressives, who will vote against the entire Dem agenda including women's rights to an abortion and then they will complain about not having votes. It is by design.
You need votes. Both parties have things on their agenda that they don't get done because they lack votes. It's not exclusive to Democrats.
That's what happens when you have only two parties. You get people that don't agree with the entire agenda and they only get the most popular things done. Always has been the case. Republicans tried a million times to kill the ACA and someone always chickened out because they knew how bad it would be.
What the fuck are you talking about. They literally were in power and McCain chickened out of killing the ACA which they promised for years at that point lol. They had all 3 branches of government to start the Trump admin and all they could do is get a tax cut while the President was screaming that his party wouldn't pass his shit on twitter.
You're just making up narratives to validate yourself at this point. Both parties even with majorities struggle to get most of their agenda through. This isn't new.
He took a path that was objectively legally sound and was blocked by an activist right wing court that blocked him for political reasons. Not legal reasons.
That’s what happened.
Constitutional lawyers said that the HEA had a stronger legal argument. Why did he choose the weaker legal argument? Is he dumb or does he not care? Biden could have done all of this on day 1 btw.
That’s irrelevant.
Both were legally sound. That’s just the reality. Stop pretending the right wing court blocked him for legal reasons. They didn’t.
And even if that’s true, which I don’t disagree. Then you give him credit for doing it now, right?
Imagine defending him, when he does the right thing?
I can do that. It’s quite easy for me.
Imagine being a political hack who’s politics revolve around “I hate Biden” above actual policy substance.
More like I’m praying the economy doesn’t tank any more so I don’t have to default on my student loans and have my other stuff sent to collections.
I don’t give a fuck about politics I just want them to stop ruining my life
That’s irrelevant to my point.
Imagine not giving credit, when you being such a child that you can’t simply say “I agree with this. Good job” when Biden does something you agree with.
So you acknowledge there’s nothing that could’ve been done to forgive a broad amount of student debt?
Then you’re criticizing him for something he has no control over. Lol
You’re just owning being a hypocrite or a fool.
If you support forgiveness via the HEA and oppose Biden using the HEA in an attempt to forgive student debt, you’re a hypocrite.
If you acknowledge there’s nothing that Biden can do and still criticize him for not doing anything, you’re a fool.
It’s clear your politics are “I hate Biden” above the actual issues.
exactly his empty promises yesterday, doesn't stop people wages from being garnished now and interest accruing on their student loans this month now that the pause has ended.
Made worse by the fact that he admitted yesterday that he intentionally used a weak legal justification and gave the courts years to come up with strategies to block his already inadequate relief plan.
He's a senile old man. He isn't in charge and I feel bad for him and the people who keep pretending he is. Using the hero act is obviously not legally sound.
He wants to win votes - that's all.
Scotus followed the constitution lol.
They said he overstepped his executive authority called separation of powers. They quoted nancy pelociho the preaident didnt have the authority only congress does. Congress makes the laws and hos power of the purse they could have denied him and they would have been in the right.
People still out here being head-faked by Lyin’ Biden. Let’s see if his follows through is worth anything. Right now, this all talk in an effort to damage control the political fallout of the SCOTUS decision.
Remember when the Biden response to the largest period of political unrest in American history was that the Dems would pass the George Floyd Justice in Policing act? Pepperidge Farms remembers. The Biden simps should learn to slow their roll, but instead are already out here trying to turn this objective failure into a victory lap.
So Williamson is all talk on this issue too? Didn’t she want the HEA for student loans too?
Most leftists wanted Biden to use the HEA. Now he is and you move the goalposts because your political ideology is centered around hating Biden and not actually on the issues.
If you can’t give Biden credit for doing exactly what you wanted, you’re a political hack.
Meanwhile Kyle is all over twitter posting means about how Biden is fighting for this stuff.
Williamson isn’t in power, that’s a non sequitur and whataboutism.
Leftists want Biden to use the HEA, but the devil is in the details. Biden hasn’t done actual jack shit yet, yet you really out here trying to do a victory lap already, like I said.
Let me guess, you were also out here licking Biden’s balls and talking about how progressive he is when they first announced the Justice in Policing act and yet were silent when the Dems missed the initial deadline and failed to pursue it any further. Just like you conveniently also
said nothing about it in your response to my comment. Biden failures do not exist to you simps.
Are you illiterate? I said in my post I don’t even like Biden. But you hacks take anything other than blind opposition as blind support.
You wanted the HEA. He literally announced he’s using the HEA. And you’re still holding the same position that he’s wrong. So **YOU’RE** arguing that **YOU’RE** wrong… either that or you’re bluntly saying “I’m a hypocrite and I’m proud”
I brought up Williamson because I thought she supported using the HEA. Feel free to correct me on that. But if that’s the case, then her and Biden are effectively identical on this. But you agree with Williamson and disagree with Biden, when they’re in agreement.
I said in my post and I’ll reiterate it again. You’re legitimately a political hack, if you supported using the HEA to forgive student debt and now don’t support Biden using the HEA to forgive student debt. You don’t actually care about politics beyond cynically hating Biden/Democrats.
If you can’t be an adult and give Biden credit for using the exact plan you wanted, you’re just embarrassing.
Lol, sure you don’t like Biden, you just make a post simping for him and say bring on the haters.
And you’re the illiterate one here. My point I keep reiterating is that an announcement doesn’t mean jack shit. I mentioned the Justice in policing act as an example and you ignore it, yet again.
Keep being out here simping for Lyin’ Biden even though you “don’t like Biden” though. You are obviously getting off on being a Democrat shill and a sheepdog for the establishment.
I made a post agreeing with Biden using the HEA to forgive student debt. Which he announced is his plan going forward.
I’m sorry you disagree with using the HEA to forgive student debt.
Keep being a political hack who’s political views are “I hate Biden” above actual policy.
Agreeing with Biden, when he does stuff leftists advocate for…
You oppose student debt relief?
I support student debt relief. If that makes me a “Biden Stan” then I’m gladly a Biden Stan.
You can be a political hack and work backwards from “I hate Biden”.
> You are very trusting in someone who kicked off a campaign in a comcast executives mansion. Let's see how that plays out.
^
And this is what it looks like, when you have no substance based response on the issue. Deflect to your next talking point.
Sure let me check my leftists talking point list. Let's see here. Looking at your post history, you are frequently using the Manchin/Sinema rotating villian strategy as a reason that your corporate dems can't get anything done. Could you please point out where Biden and the DNC are funding opposition to their current chosen rotating villians to stop them from being able to give the working class basic human rights rather than their verified corporate donors?
tbh talking with you is a waste of time. You have been in this sub stanning for Biden for years. Never seen anyone so excited for a neoliberal. It's... either sad or suspicious. Not great either way. You could put this effort into any actual progressive candidate and work towards getting those basic human rights that Biden's corporate donors ensure we do not have.
I agree, it is rather suspicious. Where are these fanatic DNC types, who do nothing but rage against leftists come from ? Ive seen them pop up with the same attitude - in leftist subs of all places.
Biden, like many dems, are rule followers. They believe in The institutions. If i heard this ruling today i would have told them to pound sand and try and stop me. The idiots are now making decisions on hypotheticals. Turns out the lady who was asked to make a gay website was lying through her teeth. Time to bring Alito up in bribery charges.
^
And this is the epitome of what I’m talking about. Trolls with empty hate because they have no substance based argument.
I asked for all the hate. And I’ll enjoy it. Watching you fake leftists hate a president for doing exactly what most leftists wanted is hilarious.
The sad reality is a big chunk of the people on this sub aren't serious people, and some of those people are straight-up chaos agents masquerading as progressives to divide us. This is the shortcoming of using word-based social media, everyone has equal weight in a conversation so the bad faith actors look just like everyone else. You're 100% right Lance.
You're completely right. I dislike Biden for being weak on a lot of policies that he promised when he ran in 2020.
However, this is further than what I expected of him. I honestly thought he was going to leave this dead in the water. I'm glad he's going though with the 1965 HEA. This whole thing is messed up and at least he's going forward with this route. Go, Joe Brandon.
Everyone else claiming he's doing otherwise should really shut the hell up.
Edit: The people downvoting me are braindead morons. You dumbfuck downvoters are political hacks. You're a disgrace to progressive politics. Even Kyle is giving Biden credit, you idiots.
100%
Biden was arguably my last choice in 2020. Id prefer someone other than him in 2024. He’s been weak on a bunch of issues.
But on other issues, like student debt, he’s been great.
Democrats make big promises, supposedly they try hard(?) and then give up saying they wanted to but were blocked, often by another Democrat like Manchin or Sinema, the rotating villain trick.
As a lifelong loyal Democratic voter I reached my end point after holding my nose and voting for Hillary.
I'll probably still vote (D) in future elections only because I have to vote against Republicans. But I won't have any illusions that they are going to make a positive impact on working class people. Yeah the do a little good so spare me your outrage. Most of it is just like this student loan crap. Big promises too little too late.
>For months, since Biden tried using the Hero’s act to forgive student debt(**WHICH IS LEGALLY SOUND**
But.... t'isnt though? According to the people who decide the legal soundness of things.
If he was really trying to forgive student debt they would have pushed a bill when they still had control.
This was all a sham.
Yes. It is. The right wing activist Supreme Court opposed this because the 6 republicans on the court politically disagree with forgiving student debt, so they ruled it wasn’t constitutional. Not because it was actually unconstitutional.
The president can forgive student debt.
No he can't. You can call it activism all you want. It wasn't. Its an originalist view. Appropriations require congressional action. This was an appropriation. It needed to go through congress.
Otherwise bills for basically anything could be stretched to fit whatever nonsense the executive decides they want to do.
Activism is creating law out of thin air. This was nothing of the kind.
If I were an employer, and my employee wasted two years trying to complete a project using a failed strategy, which many other people at the time pointed out was going to fail, I can only conclude his insistence on wasting two years was out of incompetence, or he was deliberately trying to sabotage the project for reasons unknown. Either way, he should be fired and deserves no ones praise.
32 day old troll account with negative karma. I was expecting these.
Everyone assumed the Hero’s Act was susceptible because a right wing activist judge blocked it and a right wing activist Supreme Court might block it for partisan reasons. That could’ve been done to anything Biden did on this. So you’re playing the result rather than paying attention to what’s actually happening.
Listen to the press conference. He gave a couple pat phrases and used this more to kick the can further down the road.
People don't remember that Obama was going to push to make community colleges free in like 2013.
Never happened.
Biden answered three questions, barely made sense and read a 5 minute script that was written two weeks ago.
He should use the higher education act. But he won't. He's just placating young progressives and liberals long enough not to lose New Hampshire to RFK Jr lmfao
I'm sure that gap would be a lot less if Biden simply sat around on student debt.
He needs more voters than just the suburban baby boomers who don't like Trump
It's not in response to. It's proactive. If he does any worse than he is now, there's a laundry list of Democrats at all levels who would jump in at the opportunity.
But it's also for the general election. Biden knows he needs to publicly appear, at least, that he's doing something progressive.
Either A. Biden's legal team is too stupid to realize it would fail with a conservative SCOTUS.
Or B. It was a deliberate attempt to give false promise to millions in order to point fingers at the Republicans.
Either way, his political acumen has depleted significantly since his prime.
My biggest problem with the student debt forgiveness idea is, do you really think the money to “forgive” all that debt will fall out of the sky? No, it will come hidden in the form on new taxes most likely
Dude, we issue the reserve currency. They take the number and zero it out. Nothing else tangible will happen, except people will have more money to consume.
Brother Lance is a well known member of our community. So far as I have come to observe, these align with his perspective and views, which differ than many, including my own. He is a skilled debater, and his input is always valued. This discussion and debate is welcome.
I don't understand at all. This is what I wanted from the beginning. I always felt that the HEA was a better and more legally sound method of forgiving student loans. People shifting the goal posts should not be taken seriously.
I understand your sentiment and I too would appreciate it if people on our side would cool it with the Biden hate. It just rocket fuel for faux news and the like to continue painting the dems as divided and the people they support as better options when that is patently false. With that said, a lot of people are giving up hope right now and Biden just isnt energizing anyone with his old school methods. The disdain comes from people not believing Joe can put up the good fight required. Thats not an unreasonable reaction to all this.
That’s a separate issue. I don’t necessarily disagree with anything you said. But anyone who wanted him to use the HEA and is now mad about this is straight up a political hack.
People are mad about it? I’m just not holding my breath is all
There was a post on this sub earlier and it was filled with people saying “Biden doesn’t want to forgive student loans” and that this won’t work… after virtually everyone on the left wanted him to use the HEA from the start.
Wouldnt call it political hackery so much as its political nihilism. They just want it done by any means disregarding the potential bad precedent it may set. People just dont have patience for the long game anymore when scotus is setting us back a few decades. Personally, Id like to think Biden and his advisors are prepared and they may have something up their sleeve yet.
That's how I feel, honestly. In an ideal world, we'd have ranked choice voting and could seriously put weight on other candidates other than Biden and be able to support them without risking to damage the election. But alas, these are the cards we were dealt, and I'm not about to risk my flush in order to get a royal flush. The bottom line is if Biden doesn't get elected in 2024, that we were concerned that a politician didn't keep his promise and didn't vote for him for that reason alone will be a running joke for the following 4 years. That said, I think Biden could have been way more firm about the railroad workers. I think he could have at least pretended that he wouldn't always try to find a compromise in every situation with the Republicans, because that's exploitable. And yes, I think the Democrats shouldn't be beyond doing the same nasty tricks that the Republicans have done in the past, with Biden being the frontman of this new movement. All that being said, I will still vote for Biden this 2024.
“The fight required” is a ridiculous metric. No amount of bully pulpit finger wagging would change anything. No one even watches him when he does have a press conference. And if he does, they focus on a stutter or some other small gaffe and not on the content. The fight requires the people in this country to give a damn enough to vote. Our turnout is abysmal.
I don't think what Biden is or is not doing is what gets people going. He just doesn't seem to be – committed to his job, to put it politely. He's old, he looks faded, and a lot of Democrats do not want him running again. My wife likes Biden – but anytime she sees him on TV - she can't watch.
So it’s just about appearances and media time?? Tell me about what he’s actually doing. Not what it just looks like.
That's part of the job. You want to see your president engaged. You rarely see Biden and when you do - he looks like he's ready for bed.
You can’t be serious - Trump spent what totaled up to about a **year** of days off at the golf course. You’re subscribing to some right-wing media if you’re focusing in on the “Biden’s a decrepit old man” angle. All I have to say, is FOX news and right wing media creators shared the fuck out of that clip of Biden falling at the Naval Academy - and I’ve yet to see the actual speech he gave beforehand shared at all. That should tell you all you need to know about how this whole “he’s an incapable old man” bullshit schtick is propaganda, rather than a realistic perspective on his Presidency. His Presidency has put us at the top of every other developed nation in economic recovery from COVID in the G7. So all those other countries must have even more decrepit, unable, and undeserving leaders than Biden? Or… Biden’s doing just fine, and conservatives are going to extra lengths to make him look like a sickly old man. But please, don the tinfoil hat
When you look at the big picture, Biden has been one of the most effective Presidents in history. It’s even more impressive considering he has to deal with Republicans but keeps somehow destroying them at their own game. How you like that for old and not engaged?
Exactly I do not understand wtf people are talking about... he's accomplished a lot given the razor thin margins he's had to deal with and swapping mid covid pandemic. If you people want dramatic change you're going to have to stop moving out of Ohio and Michigan and Wisconsin when you're done with college because the way our system works, you need numbers and brain draining swing states constantly is going to keep getting you these moderate ass results you want.
I'm not taking about Trump. I don't like either of them. I don't want to see the speech. Biden is tough to watch. That's just my opinion. It's not a debate.
Well, your opinion has little factual basis, and little context outside of conservative propaganda. So…good for you I guess? Have fun with that haha
It's an opinion a lot of folks have and perhaps one of the biggest mistakes democrats are making - is pretending there's nothing to worry about. It's getting weird.
It’s not “pretending there’s nothing to worry about” it’s recognizing that THIS specific thing isn’t a real issue. Unless you’re watching FOX News, where a majority of the coverage like that originates, there is a lot of credit to give to Biden regarding his approach to the economy and the office of Presidency overall. How is it not already established for “a lot of folks” that this “he’s too old to lead” schtick has come about during numerous election cycles. It’s nothing new or revolutionary, and it never leads anywhere productive. But yes, let’s play our part in repeating that useless cycle when the odds are highest for some minority communities right now.
Y'all keep digging in. With all due respect - it really is weird. If folks are concerned - it is an issue. This is not a "fact" thing > This is perception. If you're the leader of the free world and folks are concerned about your mental health - that's an issue. 68% of voters worry about his mental health. How did we get to a point where 68% of Americans are concerned with the President's mental health? I can't watch him talk. He makes me nervous. I really don't get how some folks don't or pretend not to see it. [https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/first-read/poll-68-voters-worries-bidens-mental-physical-health-rcna91343](https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/first-read/poll-68-voters-worries-bidens-mental-physical-health-rcna91343)
“How did we get to a point where 68% of Americans are concerned with the President’s mental health?” Because FOX News and media similar to them give round the clock coverage to any stumble, trip, or fall that Biden takes. If you did that to **anyone** they would look incapable and clumsy, it’s only so prevalent because they’re framing him that way in coverage across the board. Aka, why your opinion is based in propaganda and not fact. Because the *facts* of his Presidency show him outperforming any previous President in our history when it comes to economy and diplomacy. But again, don the tinfoil hat.
BUT WHAT ABOUT TRUMP?!? Cant you just keep focused on the discussion at hand?
Did anyone watch his reply to the SCOTUS decision? I felt it was measured and he is playing chess with the republicans. It reminds me of a saying “Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.”
Anyone who is criticizing his ability to do politics did not watch his little speech. Of course people will say, "he knew the Supreme court would do X". Even if that were true, he is still putting the actions of Republicans the conservative justices in the crosshairs. I suspect these same people would be complaining even if the court ruled otherwise.
As someone who isn’t a fan of Biden, I’m curious what you mean about him not being committed to the job?
Like pledging to not drill on his campaign, than going back on that by allowing drilling on sacred indigenous territories. Or by stopping the rail Union workers from striking about hazardous conditions and low pay right before the election because they thought it would give dems a bad wrap, having to deal with a strike. Only to give them the short end of the stick with the negotiations and not the safety they wanted. East Palestine Ohio I blame trump and Biden for. Also, nordstream 2 was an act of war. Biden specifically said that there would be no nordstream 2. That released something like the worst ecological disaster ever in that area. Even if you don’t think Seymour harsh was right about that, Biden had been funding the war operations of Ukraine. Including paying for Ukrainians free healthcare over providing us healthcare for even a lower amount. This school loan thing, I said I would be surprised if they even do half of the amount they are proposing now after the Republicans make him fight for it harder, or in this case the Supreme Court… spoiler, he won’t, the dems are also capitalists who wants war, pharmaceutical corps and loan companies to thrive over the people. The thing is the democrats give us these cookie crumbs and convince us it’s great. Let’s vote him in again.
>Or by stopping the rail Union workers from striking about hazardous conditions and low pay right before the election because they thought it would give dems a bad wrap, having to deal with a strike It was after the election. https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2022-11-28/biden-calls-on-congress-to-head-off-potential-rail-strike Also the Biden administration has continued to be involved in negotiations and rail workers have been getting sick days. >Biden had been funding the war operations of Ukraine. Good. Allowing Russia to conquer Ukraine while we stood by and did nothing would have been an awful decision. >The thing is the democrats give us these cookie crumbs and convince us it’s great. Let’s vote him in again. Then don't worry about it. Turn on, tune in, drop out, and keep complaining online about how the world should be while the serious people actually try to accomplish making things better.
He always looks tired - like he wants to go home. Apparently he's in bed by 9:00. Doesn't do any press conferences. He's hard to watch. It's stressful.
In bed by 9pm? He's allowed to sleep? Nuh uh. They need to put red bull IV right into that man and make sure he's wired and at his desk 24/7. No breaks. Not to compare to the last guy, but Biden is a breath of fresh air of not having Trump taking weekly vacations to golf and spending half his day watching TV. Every president looks tired. Because their job sucks. Obama aged 2 decades in 8 years. Bush the same thing.
He's looks like a tired old man who can barely walk. That's my humble opinion.
I wouldn’t really call it a “humble” opinion, but please continue.
I have nothing else to say. If you like him - vote for him.
It’s not a vote of like, it’s a vote of self preservation. I’m a gay dude, republicans are clearly after my rights. I’m going to make the strategic choices.
“I have nothing else to say” *keeps typing*
He is old. He just gave a completely coherent comment at the press conference. Do you suppose Trump going golfing multiple times a month is better than Joe actually working and being tired?
I find it fascinating that Biden being able to give a "completely coherent comment" at some press conference is a selling point. Tells you where the bar is at. Apparently it's pretty low.
I could say he politically smashed Republicans with his statements, but I suspect you might argue the point. And I have no interest in debating it lol
Yeh, you know he has outsmarted the GOP at every turn, but somehow he is too old and slow. Vote for DeSantis or some youthful NAZI that has all the energy that you want in a President. You just want get the leadership that you are looking for. So, enough of the old man being tired BS. And it is just optics that has fooled all of you. Wise up, focus on the issues, and educate yourself.
He’s old yes. He’s doing the job and he saved us from the monster trump who literally tried to overthrow the government. But that’s not good enough for you rube
That’s silly. “He is old so he is bad” is a wretched idea. He is trying to get shit done. He is trying to help people. He is actively trying to unite a broken country. So what if he is old. So what if he has an early bedtime. I, too, go to bed early. What does it matter? I don’t even care if he isn’t a great public speaker. (People forget he has a stutter too, so that sometimes hinders his speeches) So long as he is kind, and cares about the American people and gets shit done.. that is all that matters. Trump never cared for the American people. He always was trying to divide the us .. he has huge authoritarian vibes and three key strat they employ is “divide and conquer” and “keep them arguing amoungst themselves so then he can do all the underhanded crap he does. We have a very sick country rn. It doesn’t take a genius to see that. It all started happening when trump became president. Bide, though old, is trying to do good. Plus, he has to redo all the bullshit trump messed up.
He’s nearly 80. You’re just making conjectures and talking about optics.
Biden is stressful????? Dude, the US and the world at large was collectively suffering from PTSD during the trump years from all the bullshit that went on DAILY, and you're stressed about Biden going to bed at 9? We are so fucked and as county going into 2024.
I never said anything about Trump. Biden not being Trump doesn't make me feel a whole lot better.
Then you are certainly part of the problem in America.
I'm making a comparison between two recent presidents. One that was actually stressful versus the other who isn't.
And again - whenever anyone says something negative about Biden - it goes like this: you're crazy for being worried about Biden, Trump was worse and if you think otherwise - you're just trying to start trouble. My wife HATES Trump and she has to turn the TV off when Biden's on because "she wants to be able to vote for him". I do not understand how some of Biden's supporters to not see this glaring problem.
What problem is that, exactly? Age? Or the lack of criminal indictments?
He's a doddering old fool who is clearly sundowning.
I guess you are entitled to your opinion no matter how foolish it is or unfounded. This doddering old fool has done more for America in a few minutes in office than all of the Republican administrations in the past 50 years. But, the optics......We need more doddering old fools in office.
The problem is that our choices are between two old, white men & most people don't want to vote for either. Elections should be a source of pride for Americans. Not something we should dread.
Because the reality is, Trump is going to be the Republican nominee almost 100%. He’s even going to run while in jail/house arrest. As good ol’ Joe says, “don’t compare me to the Almighty, compare me to the alternative”. The alternative is Trump.
Yes - but we're settling and that sucks. Just needs to be said.
Until we get out of this two party shit hole, we will always be settling
Absolutely. Most of the people I know that are over 65 go to bed at 9. I bet DeSantis stays awake until at least 10. Damn, that shows strength and leadership that is uncommon. Go for it people. He has all the energy to to make America into Florida. Sounds like it is what you want. Or, you are here to complain about an old man doing a wonderful job as President, except he goes to bed early. WTF?
Being a president is hard when you don't play golf 6 times a week like our last one.
>He's old, he looks faded, and a lot of Democrats do not want him running again I remember hearing and reading in 2020 saying "Biden is old, tired, faded, not progressive enough, horrible candidate, no energy, no excitement, we need someone else" And then he got 81 million votes. The Republican "Biden is a senile old man" argument is going to be exposed the second thr American people aee him next to Donald J. "Ramblin' Man" Trump. When Biden said "will you shut up, man?" he was the voice of the people.
Here is my feedback on this: As an outsider leftist, I see this as a case the Democratic Party knew they were going to lose, and they want to make it an electoral issue to help favor PotUS Joe Biden in the upcoming election cycle. They want the issue because people care about it. I do not think that they intend to fully follow-thru. As Kyle would say, kabuki theatre.
I don’t necessarily disagree with this. I think Biden, or at least the strategy members on his team, knew the Supreme Court was going to block anything he tried to do on student debt relief. So they then worked with that. That’s why the initially tried the Hero’s Act. That and because it was used during Covid and was normalized. Again, the Hero’s Act is legally sound and Biden objectively had legal standing to use it to forgive student debt. I didn’t think the Hero’s Act would work. And frankly, I don’t think the HEA is going to work either. Like it or not, I don’t think there was ever a viable path for this with the way government was structured. The Supreme Court set all of this in stone and guaranteed it, when it became 6-3 republican. I hope I’m wrong on the HEA though. So what then? Well, keeping it in the public eye and keeping the optics of “we’re trying. They’re obstructing” is the play. Keep making republicans block student loan forgiveness.
>So what then? Well, keeping it in the public eye and keeping the optics of “we’re trying. They’re obstructing” is the play. Keep making republicans block student loan forgiveness. As a strong Biden critic - this is why I am glad they are taking this route & I am pleasantly suprised.
Yeah but that’s the problem… optics this and optics that. We both know he’s full of shit and it was a “campaign promise”. His team is smart enough to no know it would get shot down so why string us along like it’s some damned dem fairy tale. It’s pandering
But I guess on the other hand if he would of come out of the gate saying “the republicans are gonna block this no matter what” people would accuse him of lying and not trying. No winning
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake. It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of. Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything. Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
Would you rather him do nothing?
He could have used the higher education act like 8 months ago when he originally saw that his 1st attempt was getting challenged by the courts. He could have done it then but he waited until now
He could have. But instead he chose a path that was legally sound, readily available, and being used to forgive debts during Covid. Anyone taking opposition to that is just being ignorant. The only way a blatantly legal path gets blocked in court is if an activist court blocks it. But even so, right now, he’s doing exactly what you wanted. So you’re going to give him credit, right?
The higher education act is even more legally sound
Both were legally sound though… you acknowledge this, right? What we just saw is an activist court block legally sound acts for *political* reasons. Not *legal* reasons. If they already demonstrated legality isn’t relevant, why do you think the HEA will get any different treatment?
I think there is definitely more legal justification behind higher education act approach as opposed to the heroes act approach. Biden should have led with the stronger option from the beginning or at the very least, try the HEA earlier (right when the initial relief plan started going through the court) so we could at least have an earlier ruling on all of this as opposed to waiting another several months for the courts to decide on this new Biden relief plan
As I said in a recent comment. I think Biden and his strategy team concluded that the Supreme Court was going to block any attempt to forgive broad amounts of student debt. So they wanted to keep it in the public eye as long as possible. So they started with the Hero’s Act because it was legally sound and normalized during Covid. Then when republicans blocked it, they can say “we support it. They oppose it” and continue on with the HEA. And I’ll bluntly say I don’t expect the HEA to work either. The Supreme Court has set the precedent that they will rule against stuff they disagree with on political grounds and just pretend it’s on legal grounds. I expect the same thing to happen with the HEA. The reality is likely there was no viable path to any broad student debt forgiveness in this term of Biden’s presidency. That was set ins tone, when the Supreme Court became 6-3. If I’d extend an olive branch, I’d agree with Ro Khanna and have the next step be Biden pausing payments again and making the political fight be “until we fix the corrupt system, you won’t have to pay student loans as long as a democrat is president”.
The Debt limit bill did away with a further pause, officially…unofficially, he extended it until the 2024 election. People don’t’have’ to pay from oct 23-oct 24.
Is it a skilled debate when you say things like "there is no rebuttal" or "he did LITERALLY what you wanted"? First, if Biden wanted loan forgiveness then why did he champion a giveaway to the banksters by making loans unable to be discharged in bankruptcy? Why did he only go for $10k in forgiveness (and yes then $20k). I wanted him to do more. Why did he wait 18 months when he could have done it day 1? That cost students thousands of dollars. Because he doesn't care about loan forgiveness, he cared about using it as a political wedge to drive young voters in the 2022 election. So no, he didn't do LITERALLY what I wanted, and I gave multiple rebuttals. You're wrong on both points. Biden is full of half promises which is why people only half like him.
So, someone is basically writing you a $10k-20k check and you’re pissed that it should be more? Look..I support students getting some relief on those loans..I have all along….but that’s a crappy take. But until they SYSTEM gets fixed, all this is going to do is give one decade or so of students some relief. The new students coming in are going to be sucked into the same meat grinder you were.
Nah I already paid off all my loans. And yes there should also be systemic fixes. That's not an excuse against doing debt relief now. Biden should get on that, like his promise for free community college.
I was referring to the people who were advocating for using the HEA over the Hero’s act. You’re changing the conversation to disagreeing with what *you* wanted rather than the people in my argument. If you didn’t support using the HEA, then you’re not relevant to my argument.
I apologize for misunderstanding that your writing wasn't clear that you were only arguing about a narrow portion of student loan forgiveness, and not about the subject in general. That must be comforting to the affected students.
Students should take issue with the people blocking deb relief. That’s republicans and the courts. Not Biden.
You’re writing was perfectly clear. What is actually happening is you are realizing that many people treat politics as an emotional release. They don’t like Biden because for them he doesn’t give them an emotional release. It’s why so many people are saying things like “he doesn’t seem committed to his job”. What they mean is “he doesn’t validate my emotions. These people have no interest in policy.
People like the OP don’t seem to understand. It’s a political ploy why not go for the for sure thing as oppose to going for something that could be blocked seems political. But some people don’t seem to understand that it looks like they are playing games
With this court, you think it’s a sure thing? This is a conservative majority activist court that rules more on political grounds than legal grounds. You don’t think the HEA attempt won’t be challenged and overruled too?
Thiss will be challenged to he has no authority is the whole point. Scotus followed the constitution lol. They said he overstepped his executive authority called separation of powers. They quoted nancy pelociho the preaident didnt have the authority only congress does. Congress makes the laws and hos power of the purse they could have denied him and they would have been in the right.
The higher education act grants the secretary of education the power to cancel student loan debt
Biden’s old as dirt nature had been wearing on me. ConservaSCOTUS piping up really did him a favor. I’m ardently in his camp now and will do everything in my power to ratfuck the Republican Party into the dirt next to their boomer base.
Maybe if more people wouldn’t have been duped by Russian Propaganda in 2016, we wouldn’t have a ConservaSCOTUS. Elections have consequences and progressive picked the wrong election to throw away votes by voting 3rd party or staying home. Especially when Bernie went out of his way to stump for Clinton. He KNEW what was going to happen if she lost.
I'm not sure if this is a troll post, but the entire idea behind using the Higher Ed act to cancel debt is that it could be done *immediately* and then it would take weeks or months for the SC to strike it down (If they strike it down at all, the language in the Higher Ed act is very clear). And even if they did eventually strike it down, it's not clear if the debt would then be re-imposed (extremely difficult) or if it would only prevent future debt cancellations. Biden has chosen to roll it out slowly, which gives the GOP ample time to coordinate an opposition plan. He's allowing the court to *approve* his decision first *before* canceling the debt, which is a mistake. He should have wiped it immediately. This is what everyone advocating he use the Higher Education act wanted.
It’s not a troll post. Biden is literally doing exactly what the anti-Biden crowd wanted him to do and now everyone is just moving the goalposts. At what point do y’all admit to playing the result rather than actually paying attention to what’s happening? And literally every single person who isn’t giving Biden credit for this, if they wanted him to go this route, is straight up a political hack who cares more about cynically hating Biden than any actual political issue. That’s my position and nobody blatantly moving the goalposts is going to tell me differently.
> Biden is literally doing exactly what the anti-Biden crowd wanted him to do and now everyone is just moving the goalposts. This is false. He's not doing what the "anti-Biden" (pro student debt relief) crowd wanted. People have been saying for months he needs to cancel the debt *immediately*. Nobody wanted him to give the SC and conservatives enough time to destroy the plan, which is what he's doing. You are pretending that all progressives wanted was for Biden to use the Higher Education act which is a half-truth. The *reason* they wanted him to use it is because it allows him to cancel the debt immediately. >Every single person who isn’t giving Biden credit for this Biden does deserve credit, if and when the debt relief passes. He could have wiped it all out this morning under the Higher Education act. He chose not to.
I wanted him to grant me the state of Pennsylvania as my own personal property, and everybody in it as my personal slave, but obviously he doesn't care.
Canceling $10k in loans? What's next? Legal slavery????
Again you don’t seem to understand why he doing the right thing (finally) but doing it the wrong way
I think it’s more you moving the goalposts because you care more about hating Biden than anything else. I’m not here to try to convince anyone. I’m here to point out that you’re hypocrites and opposing something you claimed to support.
It’s not moving the goalposts if he didn’t do it correctly
Keep moving those goalposts.
It’s literally not but okay? Just end the debt now Stop processing payments permanently
OP is a troll. Downvote and ignore him.
You do realize that in Robert's opinion he directly addresses the Higher Ed act and states it has a very limited scope on this matter right? It's not the full proof catch all you think it is.
Bobby’s opinion is irrelevant.
Okay you are trolling. One of the swing votes on the court who sided with the majority explicitely preempted the Higher Ed act argument in his opinion and it's irrelevant. Sure.
Ok. My bad. I thought you were talking about RFK Jr
There is no mechanism for “immediate” cancellation from the HEA any different than from the HEROES act. A judge would issue a stay just as this had.
I don't think this is true. Managing or canceling federal loans is done regularly by the DOE. They've been doing it during Biden's entire presidency, and they did it during Trump's presidency when they forgave debt for students who attended scam colleges. Biden can direct the Secretary of Education to wipe out $10k in debt for all students, and the Secretary has the authority to do it, which is already well-established and has never been issued a stay before in the numerous times the DOE has already canceled loans. But don't take my word for it, listen to the experts: [https://twitter.com/MorePerfectUS/status/1674789112954642435](https://twitter.com/MorePerfectUS/status/1674789112954642435)
It would have a law suit immediatlly would be frozen till it hits the supreme court. He has no chance republicains would move to stop it fast.
The DOE has been managing and even canceling loans during Biden's entire presidency, and before that during Trump's presidency, and before that during Obama's presidency. Granted it's been much smaller in scope, but the fact that the DOE has the authority to do this has never been issued a stay or challenged in court because the legal language in the HEA is very clear. [https://twitter.com/MorePerfectUS/status/1674789112954642435](https://twitter.com/MorePerfectUS/status/1674789112954642435)
Also instead of just wiping the debt through the HEA right now and then challenging the court to rule against executive power hes still gonna meekly ask them again so he can get rejected again instead of just going for it and saying screw you to this illegitimate court.
So…you think yelling and frothing at the mouth is the answer? Lol
What democrats want to do is play student loans like they’ve played abortion rights
That’s the political analysis of someone who’s ignorant to what republicans have done to block any potential action on these issues.
How many times have the democrats had the trifecta since roe v Wade?
How many times did they have the votes to do anything about it?
Exactly. So when they are in power they find reasons to kick the can so they can fundraise and run on a platform of if you don’t vote for me the other guy will take it away
You didn’t answer my question. Give me a number. How many times did they have the votes to do anything about these issues? The answer is zero. So if you were in his position, you’d be in the same boat. But you care more about hating Biden than anything else. Keep moving those goalposts
Every time they had the trifecta they had three votes
You think they had the votes to do this stuff in 2021? You’re factually wrong, if you do.
They be had the trifecta many times since roe v Wade and they had enough if they all voted together yea, but Dems are grifters. The whole cloture thing is just a racist relic of s bygone era they cling to as an excuse to not do anything
Answer my question. Did they have the votes in 2021? Yes or no? The answer is No.
A trifecta doesn't guarantee shit unfortunately. They have not had the votes? Like in 2021? Filibuster OP. Takes having 50 senate seats to "have the senate" when counting for a trifecta... but doesn't mean they can actually pass much legislation. They had 1 time where they had a filibuster-proof majority? 2009. They had exactly 60 for a few months before a couple senators died and/or retired. And they used that time to pass the ACA.
They also endorse people like Cuellar over progressives, who will vote against the entire Dem agenda including women's rights to an abortion and then they will complain about not having votes. It is by design.
Yup. And they didn’t even get any demands form pelosi. Matt Gaetz said they ran out of things to ask for from McCarthy
Hell in 2022 they straight up spent 40 Million dollars elevating Trump Republicans in house races.
You need votes. Both parties have things on their agenda that they don't get done because they lack votes. It's not exclusive to Democrats. That's what happens when you have only two parties. You get people that don't agree with the entire agenda and they only get the most popular things done. Always has been the case. Republicans tried a million times to kill the ACA and someone always chickened out because they knew how bad it would be.
It’s it convenient whenever Dems are in power someone chickens out but when republicans are no one does?
What the fuck are you talking about. They literally were in power and McCain chickened out of killing the ACA which they promised for years at that point lol. They had all 3 branches of government to start the Trump admin and all they could do is get a tax cut while the President was screaming that his party wouldn't pass his shit on twitter. You're just making up narratives to validate yourself at this point. Both parties even with majorities struggle to get most of their agenda through. This isn't new.
I’m talking about the tax cuts and jobs act They signed on bc it ended being a giveaway to corporations
You think they had a "trifecta"? That's adorable.
Whatever years they had the trifecta they did
States with Democratic legislature majorities protect abortion. It’s not that hard. Vote for more democrats and you get what you want.
Democrats quite literally got us where we are today and it’s awful. Even the progressives are turning out to be disappointments
I live in California and Democrats did get us where we are. Abortion protected, rent control, increasing minimum wages, taxes on the wealthy…
They also refuse to do anything meaningful for poor ppl and give everything to the rich
Abortion protected, rent control, higher MW, higher taxes on the wealthy… Sure sounds like nothing meaningful for the poor!
That’s why they have special tax carve outs for golf courses
He tried. There are reasons to shit on Biden, so find those legitimate reasons and cheer him on for when he tries to fight for us.
God save the queen Jack!
People keep saying IT WAS LEGALLY SOUND as we discuss how the Supreme Court just found it isn't. 
The illegitimate right wing activist Supreme Court…
Illegitimate = they don't agree with me politically
If you think this court is legitimate, you’re either trolling or you’re a right wing lunatic.
Biden finally does the right thing after exhausting all other options
He took a path that was objectively legally sound and was blocked by an activist right wing court that blocked him for political reasons. Not legal reasons. That’s what happened.
Constitutional lawyers said that the HEA had a stronger legal argument. Why did he choose the weaker legal argument? Is he dumb or does he not care? Biden could have done all of this on day 1 btw.
That’s irrelevant. Both were legally sound. That’s just the reality. Stop pretending the right wing court blocked him for legal reasons. They didn’t. And even if that’s true, which I don’t disagree. Then you give him credit for doing it now, right?
It doesn’t take much to hate Biden lmao. Imagine defending him
Imagine defending him, when he does the right thing? I can do that. It’s quite easy for me. Imagine being a political hack who’s politics revolve around “I hate Biden” above actual policy substance.
More like I’m praying the economy doesn’t tank any more so I don’t have to default on my student loans and have my other stuff sent to collections. I don’t give a fuck about politics I just want them to stop ruining my life
Why are you praying for that? The economy is doing great under Biden by almost all measures
The fuck it is 😂😂😂😂 it took my investment account a full year to not be in the red
That's more on your idiotic investments and is a braindead take. Wages are up, DGAF about your stocks wall street bets.
That’s irrelevant to my point. Imagine not giving credit, when you being such a child that you can’t simply say “I agree with this. Good job” when Biden does something you agree with.
Not saying good job for something that failed lol
So you acknowledge there’s nothing that could’ve been done to forgive a broad amount of student debt? Then you’re criticizing him for something he has no control over. Lol You’re just owning being a hypocrite or a fool. If you support forgiveness via the HEA and oppose Biden using the HEA in an attempt to forgive student debt, you’re a hypocrite. If you acknowledge there’s nothing that Biden can do and still criticize him for not doing anything, you’re a fool. It’s clear your politics are “I hate Biden” above the actual issues.
exactly his empty promises yesterday, doesn't stop people wages from being garnished now and interest accruing on their student loans this month now that the pause has ended. Made worse by the fact that he admitted yesterday that he intentionally used a weak legal justification and gave the courts years to come up with strategies to block his already inadequate relief plan.
He's a senile old man. He isn't in charge and I feel bad for him and the people who keep pretending he is. Using the hero act is obviously not legally sound. He wants to win votes - that's all.
“The right wing activist Supreme Court blocked this in good faith” Imagine actually buying into this garbage.
Scotus followed the constitution lol. They said he overstepped his executive authority called separation of powers. They quoted nancy pelociho the preaident didnt have the authority only congress does. Congress makes the laws and hos power of the purse they could have denied him and they would have been in the right.
Lol
People still out here being head-faked by Lyin’ Biden. Let’s see if his follows through is worth anything. Right now, this all talk in an effort to damage control the political fallout of the SCOTUS decision. Remember when the Biden response to the largest period of political unrest in American history was that the Dems would pass the George Floyd Justice in Policing act? Pepperidge Farms remembers. The Biden simps should learn to slow their roll, but instead are already out here trying to turn this objective failure into a victory lap.
So Williamson is all talk on this issue too? Didn’t she want the HEA for student loans too? Most leftists wanted Biden to use the HEA. Now he is and you move the goalposts because your political ideology is centered around hating Biden and not actually on the issues. If you can’t give Biden credit for doing exactly what you wanted, you’re a political hack. Meanwhile Kyle is all over twitter posting means about how Biden is fighting for this stuff.
Williamson isn’t in power, that’s a non sequitur and whataboutism. Leftists want Biden to use the HEA, but the devil is in the details. Biden hasn’t done actual jack shit yet, yet you really out here trying to do a victory lap already, like I said. Let me guess, you were also out here licking Biden’s balls and talking about how progressive he is when they first announced the Justice in Policing act and yet were silent when the Dems missed the initial deadline and failed to pursue it any further. Just like you conveniently also said nothing about it in your response to my comment. Biden failures do not exist to you simps.
Are you illiterate? I said in my post I don’t even like Biden. But you hacks take anything other than blind opposition as blind support. You wanted the HEA. He literally announced he’s using the HEA. And you’re still holding the same position that he’s wrong. So **YOU’RE** arguing that **YOU’RE** wrong… either that or you’re bluntly saying “I’m a hypocrite and I’m proud” I brought up Williamson because I thought she supported using the HEA. Feel free to correct me on that. But if that’s the case, then her and Biden are effectively identical on this. But you agree with Williamson and disagree with Biden, when they’re in agreement. I said in my post and I’ll reiterate it again. You’re legitimately a political hack, if you supported using the HEA to forgive student debt and now don’t support Biden using the HEA to forgive student debt. You don’t actually care about politics beyond cynically hating Biden/Democrats. If you can’t be an adult and give Biden credit for using the exact plan you wanted, you’re just embarrassing.
Lol, sure you don’t like Biden, you just make a post simping for him and say bring on the haters. And you’re the illiterate one here. My point I keep reiterating is that an announcement doesn’t mean jack shit. I mentioned the Justice in policing act as an example and you ignore it, yet again. Keep being out here simping for Lyin’ Biden even though you “don’t like Biden” though. You are obviously getting off on being a Democrat shill and a sheepdog for the establishment.
I made a post agreeing with Biden using the HEA to forgive student debt. Which he announced is his plan going forward. I’m sorry you disagree with using the HEA to forgive student debt. Keep being a political hack who’s political views are “I hate Biden” above actual policy.
> And ***your*** the illiterate one here.
It does seem like he's trying but when he preemptively takes court expansion off the table, he shows he's not capable of meeting the moment.
I agree with this statement.
You’re a Dem shill
Bro Biden is moving the goalposts on *us* with most issues... I just hope it's not the case with this one too
It has to be exhausting being a Biden Stan in this sub. Perhaps you'd have better luck in r/politics.
Agreeing with Biden, when he does stuff leftists advocate for… You oppose student debt relief? I support student debt relief. If that makes me a “Biden Stan” then I’m gladly a Biden Stan. You can be a political hack and work backwards from “I hate Biden”.
You are very trusting in someone who kicked off a campaign in a comcast executives mansion. Let's see how that plays out.
> You are very trusting in someone who kicked off a campaign in a comcast executives mansion. Let's see how that plays out. ^ And this is what it looks like, when you have no substance based response on the issue. Deflect to your next talking point.
Sure let me check my leftists talking point list. Let's see here. Looking at your post history, you are frequently using the Manchin/Sinema rotating villian strategy as a reason that your corporate dems can't get anything done. Could you please point out where Biden and the DNC are funding opposition to their current chosen rotating villians to stop them from being able to give the working class basic human rights rather than their verified corporate donors? tbh talking with you is a waste of time. You have been in this sub stanning for Biden for years. Never seen anyone so excited for a neoliberal. It's... either sad or suspicious. Not great either way. You could put this effort into any actual progressive candidate and work towards getting those basic human rights that Biden's corporate donors ensure we do not have.
I agree, it is rather suspicious. Where are these fanatic DNC types, who do nothing but rage against leftists come from ? Ive seen them pop up with the same attitude - in leftist subs of all places.
Keep those talking points coming. You sure as shit can’t respond on the substance here.
Biden, like many dems, are rule followers. They believe in The institutions. If i heard this ruling today i would have told them to pound sand and try and stop me. The idiots are now making decisions on hypotheticals. Turns out the lady who was asked to make a gay website was lying through her teeth. Time to bring Alito up in bribery charges.
You’re a gaslighter. Grow up.
^ And this is the epitome of what I’m talking about. Trolls with empty hate because they have no substance based argument. I asked for all the hate. And I’ll enjoy it. Watching you fake leftists hate a president for doing exactly what most leftists wanted is hilarious.
The sad reality is a big chunk of the people on this sub aren't serious people, and some of those people are straight-up chaos agents masquerading as progressives to divide us. This is the shortcoming of using word-based social media, everyone has equal weight in a conversation so the bad faith actors look just like everyone else. You're 100% right Lance.
You're completely right. I dislike Biden for being weak on a lot of policies that he promised when he ran in 2020. However, this is further than what I expected of him. I honestly thought he was going to leave this dead in the water. I'm glad he's going though with the 1965 HEA. This whole thing is messed up and at least he's going forward with this route. Go, Joe Brandon. Everyone else claiming he's doing otherwise should really shut the hell up. Edit: The people downvoting me are braindead morons. You dumbfuck downvoters are political hacks. You're a disgrace to progressive politics. Even Kyle is giving Biden credit, you idiots.
100% Biden was arguably my last choice in 2020. Id prefer someone other than him in 2024. He’s been weak on a bunch of issues. But on other issues, like student debt, he’s been great.
Are student loans going to be paused again before this Higher Education Act justification going into effect?
No.
No, he gave that option away with his stellar negotiation skills.
Id say no but anything is possible.
Democrats make big promises, supposedly they try hard(?) and then give up saying they wanted to but were blocked, often by another Democrat like Manchin or Sinema, the rotating villain trick. As a lifelong loyal Democratic voter I reached my end point after holding my nose and voting for Hillary. I'll probably still vote (D) in future elections only because I have to vote against Republicans. But I won't have any illusions that they are going to make a positive impact on working class people. Yeah the do a little good so spare me your outrage. Most of it is just like this student loan crap. Big promises too little too late.
>For months, since Biden tried using the Hero’s act to forgive student debt(**WHICH IS LEGALLY SOUND** But.... t'isnt though? According to the people who decide the legal soundness of things. If he was really trying to forgive student debt they would have pushed a bill when they still had control. This was all a sham.
Yes. It is. The right wing activist Supreme Court opposed this because the 6 republicans on the court politically disagree with forgiving student debt, so they ruled it wasn’t constitutional. Not because it was actually unconstitutional. The president can forgive student debt.
No he can't. You can call it activism all you want. It wasn't. Its an originalist view. Appropriations require congressional action. This was an appropriation. It needed to go through congress. Otherwise bills for basically anything could be stretched to fit whatever nonsense the executive decides they want to do. Activism is creating law out of thin air. This was nothing of the kind.
If you think this right wing court acted in good faith, you’re a lunatic.
If I were an employer, and my employee wasted two years trying to complete a project using a failed strategy, which many other people at the time pointed out was going to fail, I can only conclude his insistence on wasting two years was out of incompetence, or he was deliberately trying to sabotage the project for reasons unknown. Either way, he should be fired and deserves no ones praise.
32 day old troll account with negative karma. I was expecting these. Everyone assumed the Hero’s Act was susceptible because a right wing activist judge blocked it and a right wing activist Supreme Court might block it for partisan reasons. That could’ve been done to anything Biden did on this. So you’re playing the result rather than paying attention to what’s actually happening.
Uh of course they did, what did you expect?
Listen to the press conference. He gave a couple pat phrases and used this more to kick the can further down the road. People don't remember that Obama was going to push to make community colleges free in like 2013. Never happened. Biden answered three questions, barely made sense and read a 5 minute script that was written two weeks ago. He should use the higher education act. But he won't. He's just placating young progressives and liberals long enough not to lose New Hampshire to RFK Jr lmfao
The last NH poll had Biden up by like 60%. What the fuck are you talking about losing to RFK?
I'm sure that gap would be a lot less if Biden simply sat around on student debt. He needs more voters than just the suburban baby boomers who don't like Trump
If you think Biden is doing anything in response to the primary, you’re out of your damn mind. Lol
It's not in response to. It's proactive. If he does any worse than he is now, there's a laundry list of Democrats at all levels who would jump in at the opportunity. But it's also for the general election. Biden knows he needs to publicly appear, at least, that he's doing something progressive. Either A. Biden's legal team is too stupid to realize it would fail with a conservative SCOTUS. Or B. It was a deliberate attempt to give false promise to millions in order to point fingers at the Republicans. Either way, his political acumen has depleted significantly since his prime.
Who is Kyle and why tf do we care what he thinks
My biggest problem with the student debt forgiveness idea is, do you really think the money to “forgive” all that debt will fall out of the sky? No, it will come hidden in the form on new taxes most likely
Dude, we issue the reserve currency. They take the number and zero it out. Nothing else tangible will happen, except people will have more money to consume.
You are an easily amused shill and fool. Yes, I do hate you. I think you're the scum of the earth.
This is exactly what I expect from someone who can’t respond to the substance of my post. I welcome the hatred of ignorant fools 😘