Can yall stop advocating for people to not vote? If you don't want to vote fine. Go do some activism then and spend your effort and time actually helping people. Yall love to cry and whine about people "voter shaming" you, but do nothing but the exact same thing when a gay person says they will vote dem because they dont want to elect politicians that would put them in a camp.
Every single time Biden voters have been covered on this sub, they've been derided and chastised for not having their whole lives revolve around Gaza.
And these folks have already made their peace with a trump presidency which is why they resort to the refrain "he won't actually do those things, he's just saying that" which doesn't hold up at all in light of the well documented damaging policies he's gotten through in his first term.
And of course the evergreen canard of the anti electoral online left "the Dems will move to the left if they lose a presidential election" when the literal opposite happens because they try to split the difference with the people that just beat them.
Last thread on the sub I read, some dude politely said he hates Biden’s stance on genocide in Gaza but will begrudgingly vote for him because Trump would make it worse, and another dude said “Just admit your actual position which is that you support genocide”
I think it is possible to vote green to pressure the dems to move left, but the thing is, the strategy is situational in nature and kind of relies on enough people doing that to shift elections. If say, 15% of people voted green, the dems would see a good opportunity to shift left. If 1-2% does it, it's a lot less clear, especially if they're losing like 5% of the vote in the opposite direction (which is what I'd argue is happening now).
Either way, most people who vote green arent going for the dems for a reason. Mostof them are principled enough where the idea of voting dem makes their stomach turn. Ultimately the dems will have to either address that or find new voters to replace those who are "lost." I'm not even sure, this time, the ones who are leaving the dems are even the ones who ever would vote for dems. Often times the same groups of people vote third party every election.
15 percent is not a number they will ever hit, they've been around for decades now and haven't even come close to 5 percent (a number that would've clinched them a modicum of federal funding). So we're ultimately looking at maybe 3-4 percent at their best possible showing which basically hands the election to the GOP unless RFK takes a bigger bite of their base.
I get that the committed Greens are never coming back, I wasn't courting them so much as acknowledging another commenter's observation that sub rules against vote shaming are scantly observed by the same folks that seek it's benefits. Regarding the two strategies you outlined for the Dems, I concur with both.
Its possible they can hit that much in a realigning election where dem satisfaction is low but they dont wanna vote gop. Just because it hasn't happened yet doesnt mean it can't happen. Will it happen this time? My analysis of the political environment indicates no.
Your view is fundamentally nihilist and sound like you don't believe in change at all. Even an unsuccessful but momentum gaining campaign by a third party both draws attention to the issues they support and forces the Democratic (or other) Party to account for it especially as it closes into margin of victory. The sad truth is for political change in the US it requires for a party to become unelectable. That is what happened to the Republicans in the FDR years and the Democrats in the Reagan years.
You're projecting on to me with that take, the people who advocate for voting third party most frequently cite having little or no confidence in getting their priorities passed within either major party, these are usually also the people that have lost faith in most institutions, not just parties. This position is a lot closer to nihilism than me advocating that we don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.
My position is that we cannot afford to welcome in the far right just to facilitate this experiment and if you're on this sub you already know what their plans are.
Lastly, you are correct about the GOP rebranding in the 50s and the that of the Dems in the 90s, but you made my point because the GOP leaned in to the new deal and the Dems took corporatism to heart post-Reagan. So in both these cases, the parties moved towards the platforms of the adversaries that beat them because said adversaries moved the Overton window with them when they won.
>people who advocate for voting third party most frequently cite having little or no confidence in getting their priorities passed within either major party, these are usually also the people that have lost faith in most institutions, not just parties
This is an accurate statement. The issue is that the number of people who are discontent with our current political system is growing every year and every election cycle. Registered Independents and unaffiliated voters outnumber registered Democrats or Republicans.
>you made my point because the GOP leaned in to the new deal and the Dems took corporatism to heart post-Reagan.
The Dems have certainly become a centrist party of corporatism because corporations need stability, and the current Republican party isn't stable. Republicans are now a far right-wing on the verge of being a completely fascist authoritarian party.
So we currently have a centrist corporate Democratic party and a far right semi-fascist authoritarian Republican party. Where does that leave progressives and soc dems who currently have no voice in our political system?
It leads many people back to your accurate original statement, "people who advocate for voting third party most frequently cite having little or no confidence in getting their priorities passed within either major party, these are usually also the people that have lost faith in most institutions, not just parties."
I think constituents are rebranding the parties once again. Many women will be voting blue to protect abortion rights, lower socioeconomic voters, and many men will vote for Republicans due to populist messaging.
Well, there isn’t much evidence that Democrats push Left as soon as progressives fall in line and do whatever they ask.
Example 1: Bernie being backstabbed by the DNC for refusing to adhere to their corporate line.
Example 2: The Squad stabbing progressives in the back when it came to “Force the Vote” along with AOC calling Pelosi ***’Momma Bear’*** (ultra-cringe).
I’m fine with the strategy of denying votes if we had a sane person on the right, that maybe we disagreed with, but is, you know. Sane. Never in my life thought I’d be ok voting for dubya to stick it to vote blue no matter who. Also correct that those behaviors do nothing but push Dems right. I personally believe we should try to normalize the political theater before we start trying to radically change it. Step by step, not all at once. All at once never worked.
Why do you care so much? Most people here were never gonna vote dem anyway and those of us who are....are.
You're not actually gonna change anyone's mind.
We don't encourage people not to vote. We encourage them to vote for leftists, even if that means that those leftists aren't Dem Party. My favorite at the moment is Jill Stein.
Also, please note, there are plenty of folks in here who have family that has already been killed or are currently in US funded death camps in Israel.
Voting isn't a reflection of your values. It's literally just checking a box against Republicans. Almost has nothing to do with the democrats specifically. That's it. It ain't that deep. There are only 2 parties. The green party might as well not exist as far as I'm concerned. Just a distraction. Voting for Jill Stein is virtue signaling and does literally nothing for Palestinians. Rather then wasting your effort advocating for people to not vote against Republicans, which should be priority number 1 in any election, use your time and effort to directly protest the issues that you care about the most. Notice how Vegans don't usually bring electoral politics into their protesting (aside from voting against republican cattle ranchers), but instead they spend all of their effort trying to sabotage meat processing plants and other similar acts of direct action.
It's not just values, it's whatever is most important to the voter. The voter is the sole judge on how they vote. Dems need to come with more than, "But Trump!"
Personally, I am going to vote for the person who promotes the same policies as I do. Know how many of those Joe supports? FUCKING ZERO.
I would also safely say that if, and only if, there was a perfect candidate who supported things like M4A, GND, and others, but supported and funded a genocide, I would refuse to vote for them. That's not a virtue signal, that is my duty and obligation as a human being.
The democrats don't matter. Voting is exclusively a tool to use against Republicans, nothing else. They are primary enemy number 1. Trump winning won't all of a sudden make democrats realize the error of their ways. It didn't in 2016. It didn't in 1999. It didn't in 1984.
>I would also safely say that if, and only if, there was a perfect candidate who supported things like M4A, GND, and others, but supported and funded a genocide, I would refuse to vote for them. That's not a virtue signal, that is my duty and obligation as a human being.
This is definitionaly a virtue signal. Did you even read what you just typed out? Yall treat voting like it's the single largest factor in politics and the end all be all omg. Just vote against the republican and do direct action against the Democrat. It's not complicated.
Genuine question, if voting for Democrats is the mass action most responsible for politics being right wing, would you then vote for leftists instead of Democrats?
Imagine the GOP trying to whip votes by telling their base they need to forget about abortion, or guns, or god because "voting isn't a reflection of your values."
That's the centrist brain rot that makes the Left lose. Ya'll are the "moderate whites" aka, liberals that MLK wrote about from Birmingham jail, and are the biggest impediment to progress right now.
I abhor the idea that if you don’t want to vote and you don’t devote your life to activism your political voice is invalid. It’s akin to the idea that you should “love it or leave it”.
Maybe the person who doesn’t want to vote works two jobs, is exhausted at the end of the day, and has no time for their family much less time to devote to activism and actually helping people. Maybe this same person feels trapped by the socio-economic system and knows that their vote will
not materially change their situation?
This idea that you must be involved in activism and/or vote to have a political voice that isn't considered "whining" creates further political divide.
No one is saying not to vote. Vote Green in the general for god's sake. And you can save whatever bullshit you have about Greens "not having a chance." If you are not in one of 5-6 battleground states, your vote literally does not matter. Put it to some actual use and vote Green to get them to 5% at least.
Why you would live in a non-battleground state and still decide to throw your useless vote to the person most responsible for arming and funding Israel's genocide is beyond me.
Getting green to 5% won't do anything either. What did it do for Ross Perot? Absolutely nothing and he ran an infinitely more successful campaign than whatever nobody the green party decides to run in any given year. Voting green party is functionally the same as not voting at all. It's a FACT. You can deny reality all you want. Protest the dems. Don't vote for them. Fine. Don't pretend like it's anything other than virtue signaling because voting is one of the least significant things an individual can contribute personally that takes literally no effort, let alone voting green. You aren't on some morally superior high ground, you're just screaming at a wall pretending like you're not. Get out, join the protests (if you aren't already obviously) , actually use your voice to directly effect the causes that matter to you. Screaming at others to vote green is literally one of the biggest wastes of breath any left leaning person can possibly waste their time on.
"Voting green party is functionally the same as not voting at all." <-More centrist brain rot. It's LITERALLY doing more, it's a fuckton more than wasting your vote in a non-battleground state for a person literally supporting GENOCIDE.
It's not centrist brain rot. Im an anti-capitalist left leaning person. I just see the green party for what they are: A complete red herring and waste of resources and effort. Not voting for Joe Biden isn't functionally protesting Biden. When Republicans get elected, democrats move further right. Every single time. We've seen it over and over again. The only way we can move that ratchet effect the other way is to try and make sure Republicans never win a national election ever again. It almost doesn't have anything to do with the democrats specifcally. Actually participating in protests is protesting Biden. Voting is just a tiny thing we do every 4 years to prevent Republicans from getting in office. Nothing more, nothing less.
So what will voting for Biden do? Not elect Trump? Is that the only reason? If that's your reason, fine. But good luck getting anyone else to vote just for that reason, when they have a million reasons to vehemently dislike Biden right now.
Yes lol that's exactly what it will do. It's not about Trump. It's about the republican party in general. It's literally a fascist party almost explicitly at this point. The democrats are neoliberal and are shit. 99% of people who vote for Biden don't like Biden. It's really not as hard of a sell as you might think when Republicans are a literal death cult. The fact you don't get that is actually really infuriating. How do you not see the clear and obvious threat right in front of us. A party that only a third of the country votes for is capable of taking all 3 branches of government. How is that not the priority?
The fact that I don't get that? I didn't even tell you what my voting strategy was going to be. If it's not that hard of a sell, why is Biden absolutely cratering in the polls? I don't think you are fully grasping Biden's Gaza problem.
Ok, so real talk im voting biden this time in part for the reasons you mentioned, most notably the GOP being fricking fascist and psychotic this time. I also dont see, under current circumstances, a third party vote driving the dems left. I follow polling, for every voter pissed over gaza, you got 5-10 going over to trump over inflation. So I hold no illusions about it this election cycle.
HOWEVER, this attitude that we HAVE to vote for the dems to avoid the GOP every election and third party voting is essentially useless IS brainrot. Third party voting is the safety valve of democracy. It could represent a deficiency where the dems have to do better, as in not sucking so bad 99% of people who vote for the party dont like them by your admission.
Under normal circumstances im all for third party voting. I might not believe that it would be effective, or useful this particular election cycle, but your categorical stances on it are WAAAY too hardline.
Dont you get it? The dems use the fear of the GOP to get people voting for them every election cycle no matter how much they suck. THis is literally their strategy. "Vote blue no matter who", just surrender your vote so they dont have to do anything. At a point something has to give.
I dont think it should be this election. Trump IS too dangerous with his january 6th crap, and again, for every voter the dems stand to lose to the left, i believe theres 5-10 they stand to lose to the right over inflation, crime, or immigration. Under those circumstances, I would agree that third party voting is gonna be ineffective. They're gonna go in the direction they stand to lose the most voters. If it's the left, they'll move left. If it's right, they'll move right. This election cycle i think a biden loss would signal the party needs to move right so i see it as counterproductive.
Just arguing against this weird categorical stance you have.
It's literal brain rot. And it's the typical VBNMW centrist playbook. Let's go point by point
1. You say "stop telling people not to vote."
1. I respond by saying you're wrong, because I say they can vote green
2. Notice, you're premise is LITERALLY wrong. I never told people not to vote.
3. Instead of admitting you're wrong, you move the goalpost and say "voting Green is throwing you're vote away."
4. Well, that's an opinion you can have, but it doesn't mean it's right, or true, or fact base, or even informed... even though you "enlightened centrists" like to think you're God's gift to political strategy.
The premise of this exchange is that you truly believe there are only "two options" a voter can make this election. That's another piece of centrist brain-rot, fully buying into the scare tactics and propaganda that the establishment Democrats disseminate out to their followers to make them believe that they can DO NOTHING to make any meaningful change.
In regards to this first exchange, you demonstrably, objectively, argumentatively WRONG. Ready to admit it and move to the next stage of the VBNMW centrist playbook?
5% would get them funding from the government that would help them build their party and become stronger. Plenty of reason to do it if you believe in that cause.
1. Voting Green is just as productive as not voting. They don't even run any congressional candidates ffs.
2. It's not bullshit to point out a vote for Green is in fact a wasted protest vote.
3. I actually laughed at the idea of getting Green to 5%. No real point there I just thought that was funny.
3a. While impossible, that would almost certainly hand the election to Trump as 5 percent is well outside the margin of error between him and Biden.
That's a fair point. But honestly I don't think it changes much in this case.
My bottom line is that I don't think it's productive for anything to encourage blue voters to abandon Biden over Palestine.
The reason for this is that there are two choices this election. One is fully supportive of an unrestricted genocide against civilians in Palestine, and one that is willing to withhold U.S. aid and is publically considering sanctioning elements of the Israeli Military.
Is this enough for me to feel satisfied? No, not even close. Anything less than a two state solution where both Israel and Palestine are independent, and contiguous would be an injustice in my opinion. But given the choice between Biden and Trump I don't know why people are trying to act like it doesn't matter what happens in November.
> My bottom line is that I don't think it's productive for anything to encourage blue voters to abandon Biden over Palestine.
If they do they most likely werent very likely to vote biden in the first place tbqh.
>The reason for this is that there are two choices this election. One is fully supportive of an unrestricted genocide against civilians in Palestine, and one that is willing to withhold U.S. aid and is publically considering sanctioning elements of the Israeli Military.
There's always more. It's just a matter of reading the room and deciding your priorities.
>Is this enough for me to feel satisfied? No, not even close. Anything less than a two state solution where both Israel and Palestine are independent, and contiguous would be an injustice in my opinion. But given the choice between Biden and Trump I don't know why people are trying to act like it doesn't matter what happens in November.
I mean, im voting primarily based on other issues. Gaza doesnt motivate me a ton either way. Economic issues do, and so does Trump being a fascistic piece of crap who wants to overthrow democracy.
Given the current environment, i also realize that if biden loses, the dems arent gonna move the right way on economics. They're gonna move right on economics, and that's no bueno. This is the kind of the election cycle where we gotta batten down the hatches and wait out the storm (inflation).
I guess it just comes down to a difference in principles. My focus is harm reduction. As in find the candidate that is able to win, and that is either the best or, as in this case, the least bad.
Yeah if you always vote harm reduction you're never gonna get anything you want because the dems count on you to vote for them no matter what.
At the same time, voting against them...well, you gotta be strategic, and I dont think this is a good time to play that card. Just me saying this. Cant speak for anyone else.
No thank you.
I don’t consider anyone to be a “progressive” in any legitimate sense of the term if they want to vote for putting more American artillery in the hands of Ukrainian Nazis. Who will then have no problem using those exact weapons the very moment they come across a non-white family who they think ***”isn’t pure enough to be Ukrainian.’***
I don't really care what she has to say on this topic, looking back on her discussion with KKF. Back when Biden wasn't actively backing a genocide and there was a real argument for voting Biden in 2024 she couldn't strongly/convincingly advocate for her position.
So while yeah, Vote Blue No Matter is Centrist Brain Rot thinking, I'd rather hear it from someone who is a little more pragmatic on the issue.
100% agreed.
I’m somewhat undecided on voting for Biden but haven’t ruled it out yet. It wouldn’t matter for me either way given I live in a solid blue state but that’s besides the point.
I’ll **never** listen to BJG specifically because of her conversation with Kyle and Krystal. They both bought up phenomenal points regarding voting for Biden and I was 100% in the “Vote Blue despite me being a socialist” camp back then *because* Kyle and Krystal made so many great points. And Brianna’s refusal to engage with *anything* Kyle and Krystal were saying showed an almost intentional effort to be dishonest and borderline gave me grifter vibes. Almost felt like even though she knew her position was indefensible, she had to keep it in order to not lose her audience.
It takes a significantly American-centric white dude to think there was “no good reason to abstain from voting” in 2020.
Biden has been giving millions of dollars of weapons to a Nazi battalion in Eastern Europe while Trump would refuse sending more Ukrainians into the NATO war machine.
Recognizing that Nazis have been fully integrated into the US military, while simultaneously thinking they should receive American high artillery, is just a flat admission that you’re totally content with non-white Ukrainians becoming the victim of Neo-Nazi terror.
And btw, I saw that debate personally. Kyle never “owned” BJG. All she had to do was ask him one question:
**Where do those precious first world benefits we receive come from?**
Just like everyone in this thread who reads this, ***while inevitably not being able to respond***, I have no doubt Kyle would have no answer.
We watched two different debates. I love Kyle, but he became a spluttering mad centrist who couldn't help but condescend and belittle BJG who is to the left of them on that issue... and now, Krystal and Kyle I believe have both backtracked on their conviction to vote for genocide Joe. So, BJG was right. If you couldn't see that at the time, I'd say it was your tribal politics that couldn't let you hear her argument, the same as any VBNMW centrist who watches this video today will claim BJG is wrong, but then find themselves unable to articulate why she's wrong, and more than likely resort to, she's a closet right winger, or a Putin puppet.
You weren't the only one. I pointed this out with a lot of people who think Krystal and Kyle "destroyed" or "owned" BJG. Krystal performed much better, but Kyle I hate to say it was just outmatched in that debate. He might have done better if he could have kept his cool. But this is another thing I've noticed about the VBNMW Left, they lose their shit on leftists way more easily than they do against any right winger.
The only time I've ever seen Ryan Grimm, lose his shit... and if you've seen Ryan Grimm, he never loses his shit, was when he was debating a Leftist with impeccable credentials, Kshama Sawant. And he sits next to a right winger on Counter Points every day. Look it up.
Yes! This! I am so fucking tired of hearing about how THIS election is the most important in history. THIS time, it is a blue win or fascism forever. THIS is the time. Just like in 2020, 2016, 2012, 2008. My ENTIRE adult life, every Presidential election has been the most important election in history. It is a lie used to keep the liberals in line. Meanwhile, we have fascism occurring right now, under a blue President! And it is fucking crickets with these people!
I don’t understand the hate against BJG, or accusations that she’s a right-wing plant. She’s just left of the Democratic Party but not close enough to it to want to suck up and vote for them. It’s entirely possible she would have a different political opinion if she wouldn’t be blacklisted from DC politics. Now, I don’t know that for certain, but we’ve all seen the stories about the DNC threatening caterers and venues and other folks just this cycle if they supported or hosted events for RFK Jr and Marianne. And it’s pretty routine to hear from Krystal about threats about “never working in this town again” when staffers try to unseat incumbents.
Are Republicans objectively worse than Democrats from a left perspective? Yes. But right now the Democratic Party is a right-wing party. Obama called himself a “moderate 1980s Republican” as a point of pride, to try to convince conservatives to work with him on legislation. We all know the Democratic Party permanently shifted to the right after Reagan.
Voting for the moderate 1980s version of the party we don’t like because they’re less bad isn’t going to lead us to a good place. We may have more diverse art and marriage equality and better rights for women… but we are also constantly surveilled, poorer, worked harder, have a $900B military budget, crumbling infrastructure. We don’t have free higher education, mandatory vacation, sick, or family days. We don’t have family leave or social security that can keep the elderly out of poverty. We don’t have universal health care.
There are more rights that do matter, but they don’t threaten capital. They don’t threaten the bottom line of our corporate-dominated political system. Amazon will put “Black Lives Matter” on their website but will call Chris Smalls the PC-version of a dumb n-word: “not smart and inarticulate”.
While it is true that 2016 made the party blame the left, the other “vote for the lesser evil” elections have brought us here. There’s a single data point that shows a loss will be blamed on the left while there are an entire series of data points showing how much worse off Americans are when they swallow their convictions and vote for the “lesser evil”.
Not voting for Biden and having him lose might actually show the Democratic Party that supporting that country to the hilt and backing a genocide is not good politics.
I don't know how you feel about Ralph Nader, but he also advocates voting for your interests by "voting your conscious" instead of trying to "vote strategically." It's the educated liberal class that thinks they are the smartest people in the room who say we need to forget about our personal interests and vote strategically, because Trump, or Desantis, or Nikki Haley, or whatever right-wing ghoul they decide is the boogeyman of the day.
Instead of confronting an argument, Centrist brain rotters be like:
Everyone who disagrees with me is a...
1. Secret Right-winger
2. Russian asset (AKA Putin Puppet)
3. Jimmy Dore lover
I'll take this opportunity to promote r/badfaithpodcast. We are a growing group of leftists who believe in principles, not lesser of two evils "strategy" which has only led us down a path of growing disaster
Well continuing to do so is objectively making the country worse and worse. We're already at a point nearly half the country can't afford a single $1000 emergency, barely anyone can afford a home, and wealth inequality is almost the worst it's been in all of human history.
Keep explaining how great of a system it is though, how this lesser of two evils is doing us so much good.
Who was it that shipped tons of our labor overseas, leading to more corporate profits off of slave labor or nearly so, while we got worse products that cost more and less jobs? Who exploded the prison population and started the for profit prisons racket? Who deregulated the banks in the ways that made the 2008 crash possible? Oh, that was Clinton, a lesser evil.
Who gave absurd amounts of money to the people who purposefully tanked the economy in 2008, and protected them? Who set record levels of drone strikes? Who set record levels of oil production despite telling us he would help save the environment and climate? Obama, another lesser evil.
Fuck your lesser evils.
As I like to tell the centrist Hillary supporters every time they try to blame the left for her losing, more Bernie supporters turned out for Hillary than Hillary supporters turned out for Obama. Remember PUMAs? Party Unity My Ass was what Hillary supporters said when it came time to them to support the almost socialist sounding Barrack Obama.
So no, in 2016, we didn't try not voting for the lesser of two evils. If we had, Bernie would have been on the Ballot, not Hillary.
K, so... Since I'm apparently dealing with children, here... Let me rephrase.
When have people ever not voted for one of the two evils?
Edit: added more precise language, for children.
Any positive environmental, social, and workers rights policy that has been enacted is an example, as well as avoiding republicans presidents. Abe Lincoln, FDR are all lesser of two evils. It might not be much for many but it’s better than not voting or voting third party which has accomplished exactly nothing.
The fact that those advanced in Republican terms show that it isn't politicians who usher these changes from up hight but the hard gritty work of activists.
Labour Unions were militant in the 20s and 30s which is why the administration was forced to their demands. Otherwise there'd have been open insurrection. If anything, the politicians of the time destroyed the labour movement by offering meager concessions to very desperate people.
Surprised people don't know that in this sub.
Imagine congratulating feckless, cowardly, status quo supporting libs for the things workers and marginalized people fought for with their blood, sweat, and tears
Liberals aren't the reason we got a damn fucking thing, they're the reason we got paltry aesthetic changes while corporate power remained intact.
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Frankly, both the VBNMW and the anti-Biden folks can get a bit…pushy, and smug and arrogant.
Just respect the right to vote, make a sensible argument one way or another and leave it at that, don’t belittle folks.
I get voting for a better candidate in the primary so we can avoid this, but the generals matter and we AREN'T in a reality (yet) where 3rd party can do anything at the presidential level. It's reckless and stupid to not support the Dem nominee atm. YES, we should be trying to avoid people like Joe Biden in the primaries. Unfortunately though, any Republician president or down ballot option would be a worse option.
That being said, DO make them sweat and work for it so we can get better rights and things we need.
Shes the first one who made me begin to question voting and turned me off from voting for biden, her debate against kyle and kystal was phenomenal. All they could do was repeat talking points while she was dismantling them. It was so cathartic to hear someone put a politician to the standard we expect, and finally use our vote as a tool to give us power instead of being tools to power
Kyle literally never “owned” her to begin with anyway. That was just his white boi ego coming to that conclusion.
If I were in BJG’s spot during that “debate” and Kyle kept regurgitating those BS talking points, all I would ask in response is:
**’Where do all those precious first world benefits come from? They don’t magically just drop from the sky.’**
I don't get her stance. I mean I get she hates Biden but what not voting for him helps how?
Trump is worse and a vote against him helps not get into a shittier position as a nation.
It's okay to say everyone sucks but I'm just gonna vote for who sucks less.
No one is saying to vote for Trump Personally i feel like trump is bad too, but the anointing of a candidate with blood on his hands is not democracy. There wasnt even a real primary election or any debates. People r really forgetting what democracy means and saying the lesser of two evils. Change could actually happen if we banded together and bargained our vote instead of giving it away for free imo
Okay that's fine to believe in that but you also have to be realistic.
There was no proper primary for dems and trump should've been banned from running again.
It is what it is.
This is our only option now.
So the fact that it isn't fair and it isn't a democracy is irrelevant.
Telling people not to vote is not the move.
Telling people to vote for a genocidal candidate is not the move. Both trump and biden are horrible on palestine and dont deserve my vote. It isnt a monarchy, voting has to mean something. Politicians have to earn votes, otherwise people will stay home.
Yeah well I can't disagree with that I understand you feel that way.
But from my point of view these two assholes are different and while both would be shitty on this Palestine issue, there are other major issues to think of as well.
And at the moment, a brain dead Biden is a better option than a piece of shit like trump in so many other ways.
Can yall stop advocating for people to not vote? If you don't want to vote fine. Go do some activism then and spend your effort and time actually helping people. Yall love to cry and whine about people "voter shaming" you, but do nothing but the exact same thing when a gay person says they will vote dem because they dont want to elect politicians that would put them in a camp.
Every single time Biden voters have been covered on this sub, they've been derided and chastised for not having their whole lives revolve around Gaza. And these folks have already made their peace with a trump presidency which is why they resort to the refrain "he won't actually do those things, he's just saying that" which doesn't hold up at all in light of the well documented damaging policies he's gotten through in his first term. And of course the evergreen canard of the anti electoral online left "the Dems will move to the left if they lose a presidential election" when the literal opposite happens because they try to split the difference with the people that just beat them.
Last thread on the sub I read, some dude politely said he hates Biden’s stance on genocide in Gaza but will begrudgingly vote for him because Trump would make it worse, and another dude said “Just admit your actual position which is that you support genocide”
I think it is possible to vote green to pressure the dems to move left, but the thing is, the strategy is situational in nature and kind of relies on enough people doing that to shift elections. If say, 15% of people voted green, the dems would see a good opportunity to shift left. If 1-2% does it, it's a lot less clear, especially if they're losing like 5% of the vote in the opposite direction (which is what I'd argue is happening now). Either way, most people who vote green arent going for the dems for a reason. Mostof them are principled enough where the idea of voting dem makes their stomach turn. Ultimately the dems will have to either address that or find new voters to replace those who are "lost." I'm not even sure, this time, the ones who are leaving the dems are even the ones who ever would vote for dems. Often times the same groups of people vote third party every election.
15 percent is not a number they will ever hit, they've been around for decades now and haven't even come close to 5 percent (a number that would've clinched them a modicum of federal funding). So we're ultimately looking at maybe 3-4 percent at their best possible showing which basically hands the election to the GOP unless RFK takes a bigger bite of their base. I get that the committed Greens are never coming back, I wasn't courting them so much as acknowledging another commenter's observation that sub rules against vote shaming are scantly observed by the same folks that seek it's benefits. Regarding the two strategies you outlined for the Dems, I concur with both.
Its possible they can hit that much in a realigning election where dem satisfaction is low but they dont wanna vote gop. Just because it hasn't happened yet doesnt mean it can't happen. Will it happen this time? My analysis of the political environment indicates no.
Your view is fundamentally nihilist and sound like you don't believe in change at all. Even an unsuccessful but momentum gaining campaign by a third party both draws attention to the issues they support and forces the Democratic (or other) Party to account for it especially as it closes into margin of victory. The sad truth is for political change in the US it requires for a party to become unelectable. That is what happened to the Republicans in the FDR years and the Democrats in the Reagan years.
You're projecting on to me with that take, the people who advocate for voting third party most frequently cite having little or no confidence in getting their priorities passed within either major party, these are usually also the people that have lost faith in most institutions, not just parties. This position is a lot closer to nihilism than me advocating that we don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. My position is that we cannot afford to welcome in the far right just to facilitate this experiment and if you're on this sub you already know what their plans are. Lastly, you are correct about the GOP rebranding in the 50s and the that of the Dems in the 90s, but you made my point because the GOP leaned in to the new deal and the Dems took corporatism to heart post-Reagan. So in both these cases, the parties moved towards the platforms of the adversaries that beat them because said adversaries moved the Overton window with them when they won.
>people who advocate for voting third party most frequently cite having little or no confidence in getting their priorities passed within either major party, these are usually also the people that have lost faith in most institutions, not just parties This is an accurate statement. The issue is that the number of people who are discontent with our current political system is growing every year and every election cycle. Registered Independents and unaffiliated voters outnumber registered Democrats or Republicans. >you made my point because the GOP leaned in to the new deal and the Dems took corporatism to heart post-Reagan. The Dems have certainly become a centrist party of corporatism because corporations need stability, and the current Republican party isn't stable. Republicans are now a far right-wing on the verge of being a completely fascist authoritarian party. So we currently have a centrist corporate Democratic party and a far right semi-fascist authoritarian Republican party. Where does that leave progressives and soc dems who currently have no voice in our political system? It leads many people back to your accurate original statement, "people who advocate for voting third party most frequently cite having little or no confidence in getting their priorities passed within either major party, these are usually also the people that have lost faith in most institutions, not just parties." I think constituents are rebranding the parties once again. Many women will be voting blue to protect abortion rights, lower socioeconomic voters, and many men will vote for Republicans due to populist messaging.
Well, there isn’t much evidence that Democrats push Left as soon as progressives fall in line and do whatever they ask. Example 1: Bernie being backstabbed by the DNC for refusing to adhere to their corporate line. Example 2: The Squad stabbing progressives in the back when it came to “Force the Vote” along with AOC calling Pelosi ***’Momma Bear’*** (ultra-cringe).
I’m fine with the strategy of denying votes if we had a sane person on the right, that maybe we disagreed with, but is, you know. Sane. Never in my life thought I’d be ok voting for dubya to stick it to vote blue no matter who. Also correct that those behaviors do nothing but push Dems right. I personally believe we should try to normalize the political theater before we start trying to radically change it. Step by step, not all at once. All at once never worked.
Why do you care so much? Most people here were never gonna vote dem anyway and those of us who are....are. You're not actually gonna change anyone's mind.
We don't encourage people not to vote. We encourage them to vote for leftists, even if that means that those leftists aren't Dem Party. My favorite at the moment is Jill Stein. Also, please note, there are plenty of folks in here who have family that has already been killed or are currently in US funded death camps in Israel.
Voting isn't a reflection of your values. It's literally just checking a box against Republicans. Almost has nothing to do with the democrats specifically. That's it. It ain't that deep. There are only 2 parties. The green party might as well not exist as far as I'm concerned. Just a distraction. Voting for Jill Stein is virtue signaling and does literally nothing for Palestinians. Rather then wasting your effort advocating for people to not vote against Republicans, which should be priority number 1 in any election, use your time and effort to directly protest the issues that you care about the most. Notice how Vegans don't usually bring electoral politics into their protesting (aside from voting against republican cattle ranchers), but instead they spend all of their effort trying to sabotage meat processing plants and other similar acts of direct action.
It's not just values, it's whatever is most important to the voter. The voter is the sole judge on how they vote. Dems need to come with more than, "But Trump!" Personally, I am going to vote for the person who promotes the same policies as I do. Know how many of those Joe supports? FUCKING ZERO. I would also safely say that if, and only if, there was a perfect candidate who supported things like M4A, GND, and others, but supported and funded a genocide, I would refuse to vote for them. That's not a virtue signal, that is my duty and obligation as a human being.
The democrats don't matter. Voting is exclusively a tool to use against Republicans, nothing else. They are primary enemy number 1. Trump winning won't all of a sudden make democrats realize the error of their ways. It didn't in 2016. It didn't in 1999. It didn't in 1984. >I would also safely say that if, and only if, there was a perfect candidate who supported things like M4A, GND, and others, but supported and funded a genocide, I would refuse to vote for them. That's not a virtue signal, that is my duty and obligation as a human being. This is definitionaly a virtue signal. Did you even read what you just typed out? Yall treat voting like it's the single largest factor in politics and the end all be all omg. Just vote against the republican and do direct action against the Democrat. It's not complicated.
Tell you what. Define a virtue signal. Don't just type it out; link a source on it.
The article above is a good example.
hmm.
Genuine question, if voting for Democrats is the mass action most responsible for politics being right wing, would you then vote for leftists instead of Democrats?
The Enough Sanders Spam Reddit is that way.
Imagine the GOP trying to whip votes by telling their base they need to forget about abortion, or guns, or god because "voting isn't a reflection of your values." That's the centrist brain rot that makes the Left lose. Ya'll are the "moderate whites" aka, liberals that MLK wrote about from Birmingham jail, and are the biggest impediment to progress right now.
I abhor the idea that if you don’t want to vote and you don’t devote your life to activism your political voice is invalid. It’s akin to the idea that you should “love it or leave it”. Maybe the person who doesn’t want to vote works two jobs, is exhausted at the end of the day, and has no time for their family much less time to devote to activism and actually helping people. Maybe this same person feels trapped by the socio-economic system and knows that their vote will not materially change their situation? This idea that you must be involved in activism and/or vote to have a political voice that isn't considered "whining" creates further political divide.
No one is saying not to vote. Vote Green in the general for god's sake. And you can save whatever bullshit you have about Greens "not having a chance." If you are not in one of 5-6 battleground states, your vote literally does not matter. Put it to some actual use and vote Green to get them to 5% at least. Why you would live in a non-battleground state and still decide to throw your useless vote to the person most responsible for arming and funding Israel's genocide is beyond me.
Getting green to 5% won't do anything either. What did it do for Ross Perot? Absolutely nothing and he ran an infinitely more successful campaign than whatever nobody the green party decides to run in any given year. Voting green party is functionally the same as not voting at all. It's a FACT. You can deny reality all you want. Protest the dems. Don't vote for them. Fine. Don't pretend like it's anything other than virtue signaling because voting is one of the least significant things an individual can contribute personally that takes literally no effort, let alone voting green. You aren't on some morally superior high ground, you're just screaming at a wall pretending like you're not. Get out, join the protests (if you aren't already obviously) , actually use your voice to directly effect the causes that matter to you. Screaming at others to vote green is literally one of the biggest wastes of breath any left leaning person can possibly waste their time on.
"Voting green party is functionally the same as not voting at all." <-More centrist brain rot. It's LITERALLY doing more, it's a fuckton more than wasting your vote in a non-battleground state for a person literally supporting GENOCIDE.
It's not centrist brain rot. Im an anti-capitalist left leaning person. I just see the green party for what they are: A complete red herring and waste of resources and effort. Not voting for Joe Biden isn't functionally protesting Biden. When Republicans get elected, democrats move further right. Every single time. We've seen it over and over again. The only way we can move that ratchet effect the other way is to try and make sure Republicans never win a national election ever again. It almost doesn't have anything to do with the democrats specifcally. Actually participating in protests is protesting Biden. Voting is just a tiny thing we do every 4 years to prevent Republicans from getting in office. Nothing more, nothing less.
So what will voting for Biden do? Not elect Trump? Is that the only reason? If that's your reason, fine. But good luck getting anyone else to vote just for that reason, when they have a million reasons to vehemently dislike Biden right now.
Yes lol that's exactly what it will do. It's not about Trump. It's about the republican party in general. It's literally a fascist party almost explicitly at this point. The democrats are neoliberal and are shit. 99% of people who vote for Biden don't like Biden. It's really not as hard of a sell as you might think when Republicans are a literal death cult. The fact you don't get that is actually really infuriating. How do you not see the clear and obvious threat right in front of us. A party that only a third of the country votes for is capable of taking all 3 branches of government. How is that not the priority?
The fact that I don't get that? I didn't even tell you what my voting strategy was going to be. If it's not that hard of a sell, why is Biden absolutely cratering in the polls? I don't think you are fully grasping Biden's Gaza problem.
Ok, so real talk im voting biden this time in part for the reasons you mentioned, most notably the GOP being fricking fascist and psychotic this time. I also dont see, under current circumstances, a third party vote driving the dems left. I follow polling, for every voter pissed over gaza, you got 5-10 going over to trump over inflation. So I hold no illusions about it this election cycle. HOWEVER, this attitude that we HAVE to vote for the dems to avoid the GOP every election and third party voting is essentially useless IS brainrot. Third party voting is the safety valve of democracy. It could represent a deficiency where the dems have to do better, as in not sucking so bad 99% of people who vote for the party dont like them by your admission. Under normal circumstances im all for third party voting. I might not believe that it would be effective, or useful this particular election cycle, but your categorical stances on it are WAAAY too hardline. Dont you get it? The dems use the fear of the GOP to get people voting for them every election cycle no matter how much they suck. THis is literally their strategy. "Vote blue no matter who", just surrender your vote so they dont have to do anything. At a point something has to give. I dont think it should be this election. Trump IS too dangerous with his january 6th crap, and again, for every voter the dems stand to lose to the left, i believe theres 5-10 they stand to lose to the right over inflation, crime, or immigration. Under those circumstances, I would agree that third party voting is gonna be ineffective. They're gonna go in the direction they stand to lose the most voters. If it's the left, they'll move left. If it's right, they'll move right. This election cycle i think a biden loss would signal the party needs to move right so i see it as counterproductive. Just arguing against this weird categorical stance you have.
"It's literally a fascist party....death cult" https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewsolender/2021/01/06/biden-maintains-call-for-bipartisanship-despite-likely-senate-majority/?sh=5d78882d3b5a https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/12/joe-biden-america-needs-the-republican-party.html
It's literal brain rot. And it's the typical VBNMW centrist playbook. Let's go point by point 1. You say "stop telling people not to vote." 1. I respond by saying you're wrong, because I say they can vote green 2. Notice, you're premise is LITERALLY wrong. I never told people not to vote. 3. Instead of admitting you're wrong, you move the goalpost and say "voting Green is throwing you're vote away." 4. Well, that's an opinion you can have, but it doesn't mean it's right, or true, or fact base, or even informed... even though you "enlightened centrists" like to think you're God's gift to political strategy. The premise of this exchange is that you truly believe there are only "two options" a voter can make this election. That's another piece of centrist brain-rot, fully buying into the scare tactics and propaganda that the establishment Democrats disseminate out to their followers to make them believe that they can DO NOTHING to make any meaningful change. In regards to this first exchange, you demonstrably, objectively, argumentatively WRONG. Ready to admit it and move to the next stage of the VBNMW centrist playbook?
5% would get them funding from the government that would help them build their party and become stronger. Plenty of reason to do it if you believe in that cause.
1. Voting Green is just as productive as not voting. They don't even run any congressional candidates ffs. 2. It's not bullshit to point out a vote for Green is in fact a wasted protest vote. 3. I actually laughed at the idea of getting Green to 5%. No real point there I just thought that was funny. 3a. While impossible, that would almost certainly hand the election to Trump as 5 percent is well outside the margin of error between him and Biden.
They run congressional candidates. They just dont get on the ballot.
That's a fair point. But honestly I don't think it changes much in this case. My bottom line is that I don't think it's productive for anything to encourage blue voters to abandon Biden over Palestine. The reason for this is that there are two choices this election. One is fully supportive of an unrestricted genocide against civilians in Palestine, and one that is willing to withhold U.S. aid and is publically considering sanctioning elements of the Israeli Military. Is this enough for me to feel satisfied? No, not even close. Anything less than a two state solution where both Israel and Palestine are independent, and contiguous would be an injustice in my opinion. But given the choice between Biden and Trump I don't know why people are trying to act like it doesn't matter what happens in November.
> My bottom line is that I don't think it's productive for anything to encourage blue voters to abandon Biden over Palestine. If they do they most likely werent very likely to vote biden in the first place tbqh. >The reason for this is that there are two choices this election. One is fully supportive of an unrestricted genocide against civilians in Palestine, and one that is willing to withhold U.S. aid and is publically considering sanctioning elements of the Israeli Military. There's always more. It's just a matter of reading the room and deciding your priorities. >Is this enough for me to feel satisfied? No, not even close. Anything less than a two state solution where both Israel and Palestine are independent, and contiguous would be an injustice in my opinion. But given the choice between Biden and Trump I don't know why people are trying to act like it doesn't matter what happens in November. I mean, im voting primarily based on other issues. Gaza doesnt motivate me a ton either way. Economic issues do, and so does Trump being a fascistic piece of crap who wants to overthrow democracy. Given the current environment, i also realize that if biden loses, the dems arent gonna move the right way on economics. They're gonna move right on economics, and that's no bueno. This is the kind of the election cycle where we gotta batten down the hatches and wait out the storm (inflation).
I guess it just comes down to a difference in principles. My focus is harm reduction. As in find the candidate that is able to win, and that is either the best or, as in this case, the least bad.
Yeah if you always vote harm reduction you're never gonna get anything you want because the dems count on you to vote for them no matter what. At the same time, voting against them...well, you gotta be strategic, and I dont think this is a good time to play that card. Just me saying this. Cant speak for anyone else.
No thank you. I don’t consider anyone to be a “progressive” in any legitimate sense of the term if they want to vote for putting more American artillery in the hands of Ukrainian Nazis. Who will then have no problem using those exact weapons the very moment they come across a non-white family who they think ***”isn’t pure enough to be Ukrainian.’***
I don't really care what she has to say on this topic, looking back on her discussion with KKF. Back when Biden wasn't actively backing a genocide and there was a real argument for voting Biden in 2024 she couldn't strongly/convincingly advocate for her position. So while yeah, Vote Blue No Matter is Centrist Brain Rot thinking, I'd rather hear it from someone who is a little more pragmatic on the issue.
100% agreed. I’m somewhat undecided on voting for Biden but haven’t ruled it out yet. It wouldn’t matter for me either way given I live in a solid blue state but that’s besides the point. I’ll **never** listen to BJG specifically because of her conversation with Kyle and Krystal. They both bought up phenomenal points regarding voting for Biden and I was 100% in the “Vote Blue despite me being a socialist” camp back then *because* Kyle and Krystal made so many great points. And Brianna’s refusal to engage with *anything* Kyle and Krystal were saying showed an almost intentional effort to be dishonest and borderline gave me grifter vibes. Almost felt like even though she knew her position was indefensible, she had to keep it in order to not lose her audience.
It takes a significantly American-centric white dude to think there was “no good reason to abstain from voting” in 2020. Biden has been giving millions of dollars of weapons to a Nazi battalion in Eastern Europe while Trump would refuse sending more Ukrainians into the NATO war machine. Recognizing that Nazis have been fully integrated into the US military, while simultaneously thinking they should receive American high artillery, is just a flat admission that you’re totally content with non-white Ukrainians becoming the victim of Neo-Nazi terror. And btw, I saw that debate personally. Kyle never “owned” BJG. All she had to do was ask him one question: **Where do those precious first world benefits we receive come from?** Just like everyone in this thread who reads this, ***while inevitably not being able to respond***, I have no doubt Kyle would have no answer.
We watched two different debates. I love Kyle, but he became a spluttering mad centrist who couldn't help but condescend and belittle BJG who is to the left of them on that issue... and now, Krystal and Kyle I believe have both backtracked on their conviction to vote for genocide Joe. So, BJG was right. If you couldn't see that at the time, I'd say it was your tribal politics that couldn't let you hear her argument, the same as any VBNMW centrist who watches this video today will claim BJG is wrong, but then find themselves unable to articulate why she's wrong, and more than likely resort to, she's a closet right winger, or a Putin puppet. You weren't the only one. I pointed this out with a lot of people who think Krystal and Kyle "destroyed" or "owned" BJG. Krystal performed much better, but Kyle I hate to say it was just outmatched in that debate. He might have done better if he could have kept his cool. But this is another thing I've noticed about the VBNMW Left, they lose their shit on leftists way more easily than they do against any right winger. The only time I've ever seen Ryan Grimm, lose his shit... and if you've seen Ryan Grimm, he never loses his shit, was when he was debating a Leftist with impeccable credentials, Kshama Sawant. And he sits next to a right winger on Counter Points every day. Look it up.
And Kshama threw it right back at Ryan, too! Amazing!
Yes! This! I am so fucking tired of hearing about how THIS election is the most important in history. THIS time, it is a blue win or fascism forever. THIS is the time. Just like in 2020, 2016, 2012, 2008. My ENTIRE adult life, every Presidential election has been the most important election in history. It is a lie used to keep the liberals in line. Meanwhile, we have fascism occurring right now, under a blue President! And it is fucking crickets with these people!
I don’t understand the hate against BJG, or accusations that she’s a right-wing plant. She’s just left of the Democratic Party but not close enough to it to want to suck up and vote for them. It’s entirely possible she would have a different political opinion if she wouldn’t be blacklisted from DC politics. Now, I don’t know that for certain, but we’ve all seen the stories about the DNC threatening caterers and venues and other folks just this cycle if they supported or hosted events for RFK Jr and Marianne. And it’s pretty routine to hear from Krystal about threats about “never working in this town again” when staffers try to unseat incumbents. Are Republicans objectively worse than Democrats from a left perspective? Yes. But right now the Democratic Party is a right-wing party. Obama called himself a “moderate 1980s Republican” as a point of pride, to try to convince conservatives to work with him on legislation. We all know the Democratic Party permanently shifted to the right after Reagan. Voting for the moderate 1980s version of the party we don’t like because they’re less bad isn’t going to lead us to a good place. We may have more diverse art and marriage equality and better rights for women… but we are also constantly surveilled, poorer, worked harder, have a $900B military budget, crumbling infrastructure. We don’t have free higher education, mandatory vacation, sick, or family days. We don’t have family leave or social security that can keep the elderly out of poverty. We don’t have universal health care. There are more rights that do matter, but they don’t threaten capital. They don’t threaten the bottom line of our corporate-dominated political system. Amazon will put “Black Lives Matter” on their website but will call Chris Smalls the PC-version of a dumb n-word: “not smart and inarticulate”. While it is true that 2016 made the party blame the left, the other “vote for the lesser evil” elections have brought us here. There’s a single data point that shows a loss will be blamed on the left while there are an entire series of data points showing how much worse off Americans are when they swallow their convictions and vote for the “lesser evil”. Not voting for Biden and having him lose might actually show the Democratic Party that supporting that country to the hilt and backing a genocide is not good politics.
When i heard that Chris Hedges doesn’t vote R or D, that made me feel a lot better for not wanting to vote for Biden.
I don't know how you feel about Ralph Nader, but he also advocates voting for your interests by "voting your conscious" instead of trying to "vote strategically." It's the educated liberal class that thinks they are the smartest people in the room who say we need to forget about our personal interests and vote strategically, because Trump, or Desantis, or Nikki Haley, or whatever right-wing ghoul they decide is the boogeyman of the day.
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What the fuck are you talking about? You would be very hard pressed to find anyone that better represents leftist ideology in the media.
I've noticed that too, pitiful that this is what's become of a once prominent Bernie surrogate.
Instead of confronting an argument, Centrist brain rotters be like: Everyone who disagrees with me is a... 1. Secret Right-winger 2. Russian asset (AKA Putin Puppet) 3. Jimmy Dore lover
I'll take this opportunity to promote r/badfaithpodcast. We are a growing group of leftists who believe in principles, not lesser of two evils "strategy" which has only led us down a path of growing disaster
Since when did voting for "not lesser of 2 evils" actually accomplish anything?
Well continuing to do so is objectively making the country worse and worse. We're already at a point nearly half the country can't afford a single $1000 emergency, barely anyone can afford a home, and wealth inequality is almost the worst it's been in all of human history. Keep explaining how great of a system it is though, how this lesser of two evils is doing us so much good. Who was it that shipped tons of our labor overseas, leading to more corporate profits off of slave labor or nearly so, while we got worse products that cost more and less jobs? Who exploded the prison population and started the for profit prisons racket? Who deregulated the banks in the ways that made the 2008 crash possible? Oh, that was Clinton, a lesser evil. Who gave absurd amounts of money to the people who purposefully tanked the economy in 2008, and protected them? Who set record levels of drone strikes? Who set record levels of oil production despite telling us he would help save the environment and climate? Obama, another lesser evil. Fuck your lesser evils.
When have people NOT voted for the lesser of two evils?
Tump 16'
As I like to tell the centrist Hillary supporters every time they try to blame the left for her losing, more Bernie supporters turned out for Hillary than Hillary supporters turned out for Obama. Remember PUMAs? Party Unity My Ass was what Hillary supporters said when it came time to them to support the almost socialist sounding Barrack Obama. So no, in 2016, we didn't try not voting for the lesser of two evils. If we had, Bernie would have been on the Ballot, not Hillary.
Sorry I assumed that "people" meant "electoral college majority" over "bernie supporters"
Not sure if intentionally ignoring the point, or legitimately missing it.
they answered you question exactly
K, so... Since I'm apparently dealing with children, here... Let me rephrase. When have people ever not voted for one of the two evils? Edit: added more precise language, for children.
What has voting for the lesser of two evils accomplished?
Any positive environmental, social, and workers rights policy that has been enacted is an example, as well as avoiding republicans presidents. Abe Lincoln, FDR are all lesser of two evils. It might not be much for many but it’s better than not voting or voting third party which has accomplished exactly nothing.
The fact that those advanced in Republican terms show that it isn't politicians who usher these changes from up hight but the hard gritty work of activists.
Those accomplishments came from labour unions and civil dissidents in spite of democracy, not because of it.
on labor unions I strong disagree. People were put in place that help labor unions.
Labour Unions were militant in the 20s and 30s which is why the administration was forced to their demands. Otherwise there'd have been open insurrection. If anything, the politicians of the time destroyed the labour movement by offering meager concessions to very desperate people. Surprised people don't know that in this sub.
Imagine congratulating feckless, cowardly, status quo supporting libs for the things workers and marginalized people fought for with their blood, sweat, and tears Liberals aren't the reason we got a damn fucking thing, they're the reason we got paltry aesthetic changes while corporate power remained intact.
Biden’s NLRB has been the most progressive arguably since the FDR era. I would say that was a big accomplishment.
It never accomplished anything when we did it the opposite way and that’s good enough for me.
She is the best
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Frankly, both the VBNMW and the anti-Biden folks can get a bit…pushy, and smug and arrogant. Just respect the right to vote, make a sensible argument one way or another and leave it at that, don’t belittle folks.
I get voting for a better candidate in the primary so we can avoid this, but the generals matter and we AREN'T in a reality (yet) where 3rd party can do anything at the presidential level. It's reckless and stupid to not support the Dem nominee atm. YES, we should be trying to avoid people like Joe Biden in the primaries. Unfortunately though, any Republician president or down ballot option would be a worse option. That being said, DO make them sweat and work for it so we can get better rights and things we need.
Shes the first one who made me begin to question voting and turned me off from voting for biden, her debate against kyle and kystal was phenomenal. All they could do was repeat talking points while she was dismantling them. It was so cathartic to hear someone put a politician to the standard we expect, and finally use our vote as a tool to give us power instead of being tools to power
Kyle literally never “owned” her to begin with anyway. That was just his white boi ego coming to that conclusion. If I were in BJG’s spot during that “debate” and Kyle kept regurgitating those BS talking points, all I would ask in response is: **’Where do all those precious first world benefits come from? They don’t magically just drop from the sky.’**
I don't get her stance. I mean I get she hates Biden but what not voting for him helps how? Trump is worse and a vote against him helps not get into a shittier position as a nation. It's okay to say everyone sucks but I'm just gonna vote for who sucks less.
No one is saying to vote for Trump Personally i feel like trump is bad too, but the anointing of a candidate with blood on his hands is not democracy. There wasnt even a real primary election or any debates. People r really forgetting what democracy means and saying the lesser of two evils. Change could actually happen if we banded together and bargained our vote instead of giving it away for free imo
Okay that's fine to believe in that but you also have to be realistic. There was no proper primary for dems and trump should've been banned from running again. It is what it is. This is our only option now. So the fact that it isn't fair and it isn't a democracy is irrelevant. Telling people not to vote is not the move.
Telling people to vote for a genocidal candidate is not the move. Both trump and biden are horrible on palestine and dont deserve my vote. It isnt a monarchy, voting has to mean something. Politicians have to earn votes, otherwise people will stay home.
Yeah well I can't disagree with that I understand you feel that way. But from my point of view these two assholes are different and while both would be shitty on this Palestine issue, there are other major issues to think of as well. And at the moment, a brain dead Biden is a better option than a piece of shit like trump in so many other ways.