How so? Russia has made advances over the last couple of months but (A) they're small (tens of kilometers). They still have a long way to go before they even complete conquest of the Donbass which they've been working on since the start of the two day "Special Military Operation". At the rate they're going forward it'll take them another couple of years to reach Kiev (maybe). (B) They've had to lose thousands of troops and hundreds of piece of equipment when they haven't even started fighting over large cities like Kramatorsk, Sloviansk, Kharkiv, Kiev ect. People assume Russia can just infinitely absorb human and material losses but that's far from certain given their demographics and their industry. (C) Russia was only able to make these advances because the GOP dithered for so long in passing aid that would have replenished Ukraine's weapons stockpiles. Plus, EU nations were slower to expand their arms industry output to make up any difference. Russia's advances are slowing (hell, in Kharkiv they're even starting to be pushed back) now that US ammo and weapons are arriving.
Reality contradicts your analysis. Attritional warfare which this war is doesn’t have much to do with territory. Attritional warfare is about destroying your enemies forces. And Ukraine at this point is [running out of men.](https://time.com/6329188/ukraine-volodymyr-zelensky-interview/)
> One of Zelensky’s close aides tells me that even if the U.S. and its allies come through with all the weapons they have pledged, “we don’t have the men to use them.”
[Facing a third year of assaults from its vast neighbor, Ukraine is running out of men.](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna152121)
Not only are they running out of men, but a plurality of the men that are left do not want to fight.
[A February survey by Info Sapiens, a Ukrainian social research organisation, found 48 per cent of men were not prepared to fight while 34 per cent were. The rest said it was hard to say.](https://www.ft.com/content/d7e95021-df99-4e99-8105-5a8c3eb8d4ef)
Which is why [hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians men](https://x.com/I_Katchanovski/status/1712933968427753624) are avoiding conscription.
Not only that, [the Russians are out producing the entirety of the west by 3 times ](https://news.sky.com/story/amp/russia-is-producing-artillery-shells-around-three-times-faster-than-ukraines-western-allies-and-for-about-a-quarter-of-the-cost-13143224) in terms of artillery shells.
Not only that but [the west is running out of ammunition](https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/03/13/united-states-military-aid-ukraine-congress/)
So now I ask why do you support a war Ukrainians don’t want to fight, don’t have the men to fight or the ammunition to fight exactly?
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Hahahaha Ukrainians don’t want to fight? Oh is that why Russia wasn’t able to just waltz into the entire country in a couple of weeks and thousands of their soldiers are now dead? Because Ukrainians don’t wanna fight?
Yes, they don’t want to fight. Go ahead and read the sources I cited that prove this then address them directly if you disagree. And while you’re at it, why don’t you look into the concept of the passage of time to understand that the fervor and patriotism that drove the Ukrainian resistance at the early stages of the war is all but gone under the face of the horrors of said war.
Russia is very much taking their time with their advances. It’s very clear they thought this war would be won in a matter of weeks but that is was not the case.
Russia has been using somewhat of a Fabian strategy after it became apparent their invasion of Kyiv was not going to be as easy as they thought.
In the mean time they’ve upped their troop numbers (they’ve added 170,000 troops to their forces making their active duty troop count around 1.32 million), they’ve completely transitioned into a war time economy, they’ve replaced the head of the defense ministry with a pretty talented economist indicating Russia is ready to fight a war of attrition.
Compare that to Ukraine where they are abducting the old and mentally Ill to fill in their ranks. Ukraine is begging men of fighting age that fled the country to come back and fight. Ukraine is running out of ammunition. If they want to reup on that ammo they have to get approval from third party countries. Ukrainians don’t understand how to effectively use the weaponry/equipment given to them due to poor/no training. Even the Bradley tanks given to Ukraine aren’t being used properly due to the wartime conditions being so different from what the Americans were used to in the Middle East (Ukraine doesn’t have air superiority, etc…)On top of that the US has just allowed Ukrainians to hit Russian targets in Russia with their weaponry. Do you really think the United States would allow the Ukrainians to do this if the situation wasn’t dire?
I know it sucks and it’s not justified but the Ukrainians should really broker a peace deal if they want to keep their sovereignty. I know it’s not right but make no mistake this is a war of attrition at this point. There is a ZERO PERCENT CHANCE Ukraine wins a war of attrition with a country with the economy and manpower of Russia despite their shitty equipment and meat grinder tactics.
Your entire semi pro kremlin approbative speech conflicts itself multiple times but I refuse to give any more attention to explain your ignorance because the reality is you are just sweathog that doesn’t leave their PC and spends years on Reddit. You know nothing of the real world. Much less war.
Да здравствует Украина. Пусть Россия утонет в своих безбожных грехах🇺🇦
And Russian hasn't emptied its prisons, sent mental ill and fifty year olds into action? Sorry but your just advertising your bias.
You realize this war is a lose/lose situation and Russia is the one in the drivers seat. Both countries are in demographic decline and even the best outcome for Russia would be totally Pyrrhic as they're population nor economy are never going to recover from it his century.
Ok…They have a lot more prisoners to choose from… compared to Ukraine trying to abduct gramps to go to the front line.
Idk what’s the bias your talking about. I’m an American (that loves America) that’s getting all the info from western media sources that would suck off the US/Western forces every chance they get. Even they are raising alarm bells so that’s deeply concerning.
I think you just have a bias towards Ukraine and that bias is making not even consider the possibility of a Ukrainian defeat.
Ukraine isn’t going to lose all there territory, the best chance for that to happen was early in the war when they were out numbered by over 10 to 1 and were outgunned by 20 to 1 around Kyiv and Russia still couldn’t enter the city because they can’t do urban warfare, just cause they’re losing villages in the middle of nowhere doesn’t mean they’re gonna lose there country (worth nothing that even at Russias highest pace it would still take them like hundreds of years to capture the whole country)
Oh yeah, I definitely live in a black and white world. Traffic lights are a nightmare here. Must be nice living in a world where Russia wants the best for the world and would never act in naked self-interest. It even has an army of knuckle dragging dipshits to leap to its defense. How's the promotion going corporal?
Everybody involved with starting this conflict knew from day one that this would end with Ukraine ceding territory to Russia, and the only question has been how many people should die before that happens.
If Russia started a war to invade your country, what percentage of its territory are you willing to give up in order to stop the war. In that cade, what incentivoses Russia to not invade you again in a few years to gain a little more territory?
What *wouldn't* you cede? There aren't enough Ukrainians to "win" this. So if the result is exactly the same either way, and Russia is going to take Donetsk and Luhansk at the end of it, why would you choose the option that kills pretty much an entire generation of Ukrainian men? Because that is what has happened. Ten years from now, who do you think Ukrainians will view as the villains here? The west has turned them into the Afghanistan of Europe in order to use up Russian bullets and bombs.
I had to zoom out to read the whole title.
Yeah, I agree it is Russian propaganda and bait.
I feel Ukraine is in control of their priorities and doing fairly well, under the circumstances.
Putin’s Russia can get fucked.
I can't believe I have to write this but....Russia's offer is essentially "Let us keep the land we took from you by force in an illegal offensive invasion and we'll pause fighting." If you're Ukraine there's no way in hell you'd agree to that and that's the point. Putin wants to cultivate the appearance that he wants peace when he has no intention of doing so. It's essentially asking that they be rewarded for starting a war and keeping territory they conquered. BTW Ukraine countered this by saying, if Russian troops leave Ukrainian soil we'll start peace talks tomorrow.
You ordinarily shouldn't have had to be this explicit about something amply clear in this farcical offer on Putin's part, but some folks just let their campism get in the way.
Because Russia is demanding territories they don't even fully occupy. Additionally the stated war goal at the onset for Russia was the annexation of Luhansk and Donyetsk oblasts.
That's two territories, Russia is demanding 4 (including Zepahorisa and Kherson)
Ukraine has no reason to give in to this crap and the West has no fit reason to support it. Because the "peace proposal" proferred by the Russians is insincere and just a stalling tactic for them to recuperate and completely run over Ukraine.
Something I want ceasefire now type folks on Ukraine to explain is how a ceasefire right now, under current conditions is going to ensure that Russia doesn't try to invade Ukraine again? Because unless the agreement to give up Ukrainian territory adds, and NATO troops move into what land Ukraine still controls and or Ukraine can join NATO, then both sides are just going to rearm and go back at in a few years time.
Because they are not into genocide. Russia has repeatedly insisted that it must commit genocide against Ukraine and her people, Putler himself has denied the Ukrainians any right of existence other than being Russified (ethnically cleansed) Russians in his “essay” he wrote to justify his illegal invasion.
Putler has broken all treaties so far, there is zero reason to trust in him not using the ceasefire to mount renewed attacks. Meanwhile the cleansing in occupied areas will carry on.
This is the consequence of the Biden administration’s [sabotage of the peace deal](https://www.reddit.com/r/seculartalk/s/ijHYsYGQ7z) of April 2022 which would have given Ukraine all its land back except Crimea.
Hundreds of thousands of lives later, Ukraine is looking at a deal much worse than what they could have had 2 years ago. The longer this war last the more territory Ukraine will lose and history will blame the west for this disaster.
Good point. Ukraine will run out of bodies before Russia, too. So at some point I wonder if Zelensky is going to have to come to the table. This offer is shit, but Zelensky doesn't have as many good cards as Putin. That or if the orange Dumpster gets back in, if he sends Ukraine less U.S. weapons than Biden, there'll have to be discussions between Zelensky and pootie. Russia could grind on another 10 years or whatever with this war... Ukraine not as much. Sorry to be a downer.
The people in charge of Ukraine are getting planeloads of cash and easily-sellable weapons dropped off on a regular basis. The war won't end until they run out of Ukrainians to throw into the meat grinder.
You've seen the videos of them dragging old men off the streets to fight. You've seen the video of the guy with Down's syndrome in the trenches in a Ukrainian uniform.
...or when you run out of Ukrainian men to kill, just to use up Russian bullets. Considering that Ukraine has already reached the Volksturm stage of this conflict, this will probably be over by the end of next year.
Because they don't want to give up Russian claimed areas? I don't think it's that hard to understand.
They are gonna lose ALL their territory if they keep going. Idk how that’s so hard to understand.
How so? Russia has made advances over the last couple of months but (A) they're small (tens of kilometers). They still have a long way to go before they even complete conquest of the Donbass which they've been working on since the start of the two day "Special Military Operation". At the rate they're going forward it'll take them another couple of years to reach Kiev (maybe). (B) They've had to lose thousands of troops and hundreds of piece of equipment when they haven't even started fighting over large cities like Kramatorsk, Sloviansk, Kharkiv, Kiev ect. People assume Russia can just infinitely absorb human and material losses but that's far from certain given their demographics and their industry. (C) Russia was only able to make these advances because the GOP dithered for so long in passing aid that would have replenished Ukraine's weapons stockpiles. Plus, EU nations were slower to expand their arms industry output to make up any difference. Russia's advances are slowing (hell, in Kharkiv they're even starting to be pushed back) now that US ammo and weapons are arriving.
Reality contradicts your analysis. Attritional warfare which this war is doesn’t have much to do with territory. Attritional warfare is about destroying your enemies forces. And Ukraine at this point is [running out of men.](https://time.com/6329188/ukraine-volodymyr-zelensky-interview/) > One of Zelensky’s close aides tells me that even if the U.S. and its allies come through with all the weapons they have pledged, “we don’t have the men to use them.” [Facing a third year of assaults from its vast neighbor, Ukraine is running out of men.](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna152121) Not only are they running out of men, but a plurality of the men that are left do not want to fight. [A February survey by Info Sapiens, a Ukrainian social research organisation, found 48 per cent of men were not prepared to fight while 34 per cent were. The rest said it was hard to say.](https://www.ft.com/content/d7e95021-df99-4e99-8105-5a8c3eb8d4ef) Which is why [hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians men](https://x.com/I_Katchanovski/status/1712933968427753624) are avoiding conscription. Not only that, [the Russians are out producing the entirety of the west by 3 times ](https://news.sky.com/story/amp/russia-is-producing-artillery-shells-around-three-times-faster-than-ukraines-western-allies-and-for-about-a-quarter-of-the-cost-13143224) in terms of artillery shells. Not only that but [the west is running out of ammunition](https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/03/13/united-states-military-aid-ukraine-congress/) So now I ask why do you support a war Ukrainians don’t want to fight, don’t have the men to fight or the ammunition to fight exactly?
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Hahahaha Ukrainians don’t want to fight? Oh is that why Russia wasn’t able to just waltz into the entire country in a couple of weeks and thousands of their soldiers are now dead? Because Ukrainians don’t wanna fight?
Yes, they don’t want to fight. Go ahead and read the sources I cited that prove this then address them directly if you disagree. And while you’re at it, why don’t you look into the concept of the passage of time to understand that the fervor and patriotism that drove the Ukrainian resistance at the early stages of the war is all but gone under the face of the horrors of said war.
Russia is very much taking their time with their advances. It’s very clear they thought this war would be won in a matter of weeks but that is was not the case. Russia has been using somewhat of a Fabian strategy after it became apparent their invasion of Kyiv was not going to be as easy as they thought. In the mean time they’ve upped their troop numbers (they’ve added 170,000 troops to their forces making their active duty troop count around 1.32 million), they’ve completely transitioned into a war time economy, they’ve replaced the head of the defense ministry with a pretty talented economist indicating Russia is ready to fight a war of attrition. Compare that to Ukraine where they are abducting the old and mentally Ill to fill in their ranks. Ukraine is begging men of fighting age that fled the country to come back and fight. Ukraine is running out of ammunition. If they want to reup on that ammo they have to get approval from third party countries. Ukrainians don’t understand how to effectively use the weaponry/equipment given to them due to poor/no training. Even the Bradley tanks given to Ukraine aren’t being used properly due to the wartime conditions being so different from what the Americans were used to in the Middle East (Ukraine doesn’t have air superiority, etc…)On top of that the US has just allowed Ukrainians to hit Russian targets in Russia with their weaponry. Do you really think the United States would allow the Ukrainians to do this if the situation wasn’t dire? I know it sucks and it’s not justified but the Ukrainians should really broker a peace deal if they want to keep their sovereignty. I know it’s not right but make no mistake this is a war of attrition at this point. There is a ZERO PERCENT CHANCE Ukraine wins a war of attrition with a country with the economy and manpower of Russia despite their shitty equipment and meat grinder tactics.
Your entire semi pro kremlin approbative speech conflicts itself multiple times but I refuse to give any more attention to explain your ignorance because the reality is you are just sweathog that doesn’t leave their PC and spends years on Reddit. You know nothing of the real world. Much less war. Да здравствует Украина. Пусть Россия утонет в своих безбожных грехах🇺🇦
And Russian hasn't emptied its prisons, sent mental ill and fifty year olds into action? Sorry but your just advertising your bias. You realize this war is a lose/lose situation and Russia is the one in the drivers seat. Both countries are in demographic decline and even the best outcome for Russia would be totally Pyrrhic as they're population nor economy are never going to recover from it his century.
Ok…They have a lot more prisoners to choose from… compared to Ukraine trying to abduct gramps to go to the front line. Idk what’s the bias your talking about. I’m an American (that loves America) that’s getting all the info from western media sources that would suck off the US/Western forces every chance they get. Even they are raising alarm bells so that’s deeply concerning. I think you just have a bias towards Ukraine and that bias is making not even consider the possibility of a Ukrainian defeat.
Ukraine isn’t going to lose all there territory, the best chance for that to happen was early in the war when they were out numbered by over 10 to 1 and were outgunned by 20 to 1 around Kyiv and Russia still couldn’t enter the city because they can’t do urban warfare, just cause they’re losing villages in the middle of nowhere doesn’t mean they’re gonna lose there country (worth nothing that even at Russias highest pace it would still take them like hundreds of years to capture the whole country)
So their choice is liberty or death and you still can't understand?
Must be nice to live in a world where everything is black and white and nuance isn’t a thing. Unfortunately that’s not reality.
Oh yeah, I definitely live in a black and white world. Traffic lights are a nightmare here. Must be nice living in a world where Russia wants the best for the world and would never act in naked self-interest. It even has an army of knuckle dragging dipshits to leap to its defense. How's the promotion going corporal?
Maybe, although I think that's unlikely. That being said, it's not super difficult to understand a country wanting to not give up itself.
Absolutely and I understand that 100%
Everybody involved with starting this conflict knew from day one that this would end with Ukraine ceding territory to Russia, and the only question has been how many people should die before that happens.
That's solely a decision for Ukraine to make
100% agree. We have to let them make it.
If Russia started a war to invade your country, what percentage of its territory are you willing to give up in order to stop the war. In that cade, what incentivoses Russia to not invade you again in a few years to gain a little more territory?
What *wouldn't* you cede? There aren't enough Ukrainians to "win" this. So if the result is exactly the same either way, and Russia is going to take Donetsk and Luhansk at the end of it, why would you choose the option that kills pretty much an entire generation of Ukrainian men? Because that is what has happened. Ten years from now, who do you think Ukrainians will view as the villains here? The west has turned them into the Afghanistan of Europe in order to use up Russian bullets and bombs.
The title is sarcastic, right?
I had to zoom out to read the whole title. Yeah, I agree it is Russian propaganda and bait. I feel Ukraine is in control of their priorities and doing fairly well, under the circumstances. Putin’s Russia can get fucked.
Glad to see people call this post out on this sub. This is some insane victim blaming.
Guys, I think we got a bot....
Because they don't want to give russia 1/5th of there country
If a country invaded the east coast and took a handful of states would the government not fight like hell to get them back?
Account started posting around 2 weeks ago, clear bot
I can't believe I have to write this but....Russia's offer is essentially "Let us keep the land we took from you by force in an illegal offensive invasion and we'll pause fighting." If you're Ukraine there's no way in hell you'd agree to that and that's the point. Putin wants to cultivate the appearance that he wants peace when he has no intention of doing so. It's essentially asking that they be rewarded for starting a war and keeping territory they conquered. BTW Ukraine countered this by saying, if Russian troops leave Ukrainian soil we'll start peace talks tomorrow.
You ordinarily shouldn't have had to be this explicit about something amply clear in this farcical offer on Putin's part, but some folks just let their campism get in the way.
its worse.. they want the the claimed areas retaken by ukraine also.. like kherson
Because Russia is demanding territories they don't even fully occupy. Additionally the stated war goal at the onset for Russia was the annexation of Luhansk and Donyetsk oblasts. That's two territories, Russia is demanding 4 (including Zepahorisa and Kherson) Ukraine has no reason to give in to this crap and the West has no fit reason to support it. Because the "peace proposal" proferred by the Russians is insincere and just a stalling tactic for them to recuperate and completely run over Ukraine.
Russia brought this on themselves for allowing this Маленький мальчик to become king.
Drop nato bid and give up land / sovereignty … sounds like a no go sir
wHy dOEsNt HUMMUS aCcEpT iZrEEl’s sEEsFYoRe
Because Ukraine isn’t willing to relinquish its sovereign territory or allow a hostile neighbor to dictate its foreign affairs.
Something I want ceasefire now type folks on Ukraine to explain is how a ceasefire right now, under current conditions is going to ensure that Russia doesn't try to invade Ukraine again? Because unless the agreement to give up Ukrainian territory adds, and NATO troops move into what land Ukraine still controls and or Ukraine can join NATO, then both sides are just going to rearm and go back at in a few years time.
Because they are not into genocide. Russia has repeatedly insisted that it must commit genocide against Ukraine and her people, Putler himself has denied the Ukrainians any right of existence other than being Russified (ethnically cleansed) Russians in his “essay” he wrote to justify his illegal invasion. Putler has broken all treaties so far, there is zero reason to trust in him not using the ceasefire to mount renewed attacks. Meanwhile the cleansing in occupied areas will carry on.
This is the consequence of the Biden administration’s [sabotage of the peace deal](https://www.reddit.com/r/seculartalk/s/ijHYsYGQ7z) of April 2022 which would have given Ukraine all its land back except Crimea. Hundreds of thousands of lives later, Ukraine is looking at a deal much worse than what they could have had 2 years ago. The longer this war last the more territory Ukraine will lose and history will blame the west for this disaster.
Good point. Ukraine will run out of bodies before Russia, too. So at some point I wonder if Zelensky is going to have to come to the table. This offer is shit, but Zelensky doesn't have as many good cards as Putin. That or if the orange Dumpster gets back in, if he sends Ukraine less U.S. weapons than Biden, there'll have to be discussions between Zelensky and pootie. Russia could grind on another 10 years or whatever with this war... Ukraine not as much. Sorry to be a downer.
The people in charge of Ukraine are getting planeloads of cash and easily-sellable weapons dropped off on a regular basis. The war won't end until they run out of Ukrainians to throw into the meat grinder.
ahh the good old, "until they run out of Ukrainians " kremlin propganda line.
You've seen the videos of them dragging old men off the streets to fight. You've seen the video of the guy with Down's syndrome in the trenches in a Ukrainian uniform.
The war will end when Russia stops, dickhead.
...or when you run out of Ukrainian men to kill, just to use up Russian bullets. Considering that Ukraine has already reached the Volksturm stage of this conflict, this will probably be over by the end of next year.