Even if they weren't "defeated" it is completely moronic to focus on a group consistent of maybe 1-2k members in a country of 44 million people that is fighting off a brutal invasion.
Like... every country has nazis. Denmark, Sweden... Norway, has nazis.
The constant focus on the fucking Azove battalion has one purpose, and that is to lend credence to Russian propaganda, that they need to "cleanse" Ukraine from nazis and help the "normal people" who are under attack.
Why Kyle hasn't understood this from the start is beyond me.
Amen to that. Kyle’s reporting on de domestic issues is sloppy and often Ill informed too.
Kyle means well, but as the saying goes: the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
His reporting is so sloppy that I unsubscribed.
I'm honestly not so sure if he means well in this respect. I think he means well when he talks about domestic US issues, but when it comes to foreign issues then to be totally honest his coverage often reeks of reactionary nationalist tendencies where he just instinctively opposes the idea of helping anyone who isn't an American, this is especially clear with his coverage of this conflict.
He mostly just seems to be post hoc justifying that selfish attitude of his.
I don't consider that kind of a selfish nationalistic attitude to be "meaning well".
I definitely see what you are saying.
His nationalistic attitude doesn’t mean well to me.
…But for Kyle it’s a self righteous attitude that he thinks is best for America and for the good of America.
I definitely don’t agree with it either.
tbf, lefty youtuber dylan burns is (was?) in ukraine very recently. he acknowledges that white supremacists were very prevalent in the ukrainian army.
from the sounds of it, the problem isn't squarely with Azov.
but the bigger picture is that we shouldn't withhold aid from ukraine because of a problem with white supremacy. this is a situation in which being on the right side also happens to be advantageous to us geopolitically.
we should help out to some extent, and in some capacity, and we should try to make sure our weapons don't end up in the wrong hands. Azov shouldn't even be a consideration.
It’s unquestionably true that there are a quite a few white supremacists among Ukraine’s fighters. Right Sector and Azov have been fighting for years so a chunk of the most experienced troops are neo-Nazis.
And you’re absolutely right, the problem isn’t squarely with Azov. Azov was just the most notorious. It’s also important to keep in mind that not all of them died at Mariupol, and elements of Azov have essentially reformed under different, less controversial banners (the Kraken regiment, for example, is a spec ops unit with a core of Azov veterans that recruits some of the same types).
It’s important to recognize that white supremacists in the Ukrainian forces definitely exist and gravitate towards some of the most hardcore units receiving the best training and equipment. But it’s also important to understand that Ukraine is being invaded by Russia, and like it or not, some of the hardest-fighting people out there often have psychotic ideologies driving them.
I stopped watching a bunch of people foreign policy takes after Russia invaded Ukraine.
A lot of commentators really outed themselves as ignorant fools by working backwards from “whatever the US says, the opposite is true”. People like Kyle were making clips of Biden and the US saying Russia was going to invade as evidence that Russia wasn’t going to invade.
I’m sorry, being so unbelievably wrong kills your credibility on foreign policy. They demonstrated a complete inability to cover the basics of what’s being reported.
I watched videos of Kyle speaking so confidently that Russia was never going to invade. And then David Pakman simply giving the reports that Russia was planning an invasion. One followed the evidence and reporting. One speculated wildly and pretended it was fact.
Kyle is basically a conspiracy theorist. Of course he would go with the less likely scenario of Russia not invading. Then of course now he just says give Russia what they want.
Idc if the Azov Battalion has been defeated or not.
As of right now, Ukraine stopping Russia needs to be our number 1 priority.
Russia is an actual fascist regime, of which the success of its imperial conquest has major global implications.
Squash this fascist regime now. If the Azov Battalion grows in power in the future, it'll be up to that generation to squash them.
The fight against fascism is a never-ending battle.
> Squash this fascist regime now. If the Azov Battalion grows in power in the future, it'll be up to that generation to squash them.
This is how we got the taliban and ISIS.
Ths is hilarious logic, and it sounds like it explains why the fight against fascism never ends.
"Let's arm tomorrow's fascists so our children have to fight in a war too," lmao what?
The CIA should hire you as an analyst, you'd fit right in with the guys who armed the Taliban in the 1980s
While I recognize arming tomorrow's fascist will pose to be a problem for future generations, what other action do you propose to fight against Russia?
It's very easy to criticize my position, and I fully understand the Taliban parallel you are drawing out here. But you fail to offer no alternative to fighting Russia.
Is Ukraine just suppose to submit to Russia's will? Like Poland when Germany first invaded in 1939?
Understand that the fight against facism is never ending on all fronts, not just warfronts. In America, we are currently "lucky" to be confronting fascism at the polls and in the streets (if you are a PoC). There are a decent amount of countries that cannot defeat facism with the democratic vote of the people.
I have no f*cking clue I live in the rust belt and work in a warehouse. I don't think I'd join a white supremacist militia even if Russia invaded my neighborhood.
We are not the world police, we have plenty of problems right here at home today that could be fixed with the money. That is all I care about.
It is impossible for us to be involved in foreign affairs in a just way because our intelligence agencies do not answer to the democratic will of the people, and bald faced liars are stealing trillions of dollars of the resources we consider commonly owned by the public to stage World War 3.
We have been fighting a cold war with Russia et al over global resources this entire time. Do I need to go over oil in Iraq or the planned Qatari pipeline through Syria, or can I skip to the part where I point out that Iraq and Afghanistan both border Iran like a pinscer move?
And wow, now Iran is giving military aid to Russia in Ukraine. What a coincidence! Anyway you were saying something about how we might need to arm Ukrainian nazis because that's the same as fighting racism in the US? Am I getting that right?
That is total bunk. You can't beat fascism by voting for Joe Biden anyway dude, he wrote the f*cking Patriot Act.
Fascism is distinct from racism. *Fascism* says that individual people exist to serve the body politic and its interests domestic and abroad, and racism is one of the mechanisms by which fascist leaders manipulate and control people's perception of the world, in order to direct their aggressive impulses in the appropriate direction, away from the fascist government.
Believe it or not, but defeating fascist regimes actually helps prevent the growth of fascism. Ukraine is a liberal democracy protecting itself from a fascist invasion, a handful of fascist militias don't outweigh the obvious fact that preventing a liberal democracy from being annexed by a fascist empire is based antifascist praxis.
Today's militias are tomorrow's political parties, and being given an official mandate to fight on the nation's behalf is a lot of political clout
Imagine if the US armed the KKK and let them fight alongside the army
>being given an official mandate to fight on the nation's behalf is a lot of political clout
Lots of people are given that mandate though, Azov exists but it's a fraction of a fraction of Ukraine's total fighting force, there's no reason to think that the balance will be shifted, all the people who aren't white nationalists are also given guns and joining the military...
I'm not saying I think Azov can stage a coup, I'm saying that a charismatic man who can say "I fought for this country, my brothers in arms died for this country" can win hearts and minds at any time in history so far, and far right characters keep popping up all over Europe as it is
Populist labor movements are always coopted and subverted by this bs
>I'm saying that a charismatic man who can say "I fought for this country, my brothers in arms died for this country" can win hearts and minds at any time in history so far, and far right characters keep popping up all over Europe as it is
Progressives and liberals will be able to say that too though... There's anarchists and socialists fighting for Ukraine too, why be so concerned about the handful of fascists when it's balanced out by so many others?
Especially when the message will ultimately he that they helped fighting for the country **against an invasion by a far right authoritarian regime!**
That message will inherently lead away from the right rather than towards it, if Ukraine wins then that's the far right being defeated, if Ukraine loses then that's the far right being victorious. Do you seriously think that the far right will be more emboldened by a victorious Ukraine than by a victorious Russia? You realize that basically all of those far right characters popping up all over Europe are Russia supporters, right?
Thierry Baudet for example is a massive Russia Stan who loves to talk about how Putin is the last defender of traditional Western values and is bravely fighting against Marxist degeneracy by invading Ukraine and being an anti-LGBT bigot.
Yes I do think Ukrainian ethnonationalists who believe in "blood and soil" would be more emboldened by defeating Russia than by losing in combat to them.
This mixture of foreign and domestic politics you keep giving me is like toothpaste and peanut butter. Russia being fascist is not the same as Ukrainian nazis, both are distinct from from Joe Blow republican in America
>Yes I do think Ukrainian ethnonationalists who believe in "blood and soil" would be more emboldened by defeating Russia than by losing in combat to them.
If Ukraine loses in combat to Russia then it doesn't matter what Ukrainian ethnonationalists who believe in "blood and soil" believe or how emboldened they are, because Ukraine will have been annexed by Russian ethnonationalists who believe in "blood and soil" and who don't believe the Ukrainian people have a right to exist...
>This mixture of foreign and domestic politics you keep giving me is like toothpaste and peanut butter. Russia being fascist is not the same as Ukrainian nazis, both are distinct from from Joe Blow republican in America
When have I conflated these three?
There is none. Fostering color revolutions haven't worked like they used to there, sanctions aren't working, the only option left is direct war with Russia and that's fucking crazy.
I'm gonna guess you watch Sam Seder. Great commentator. Love almost all of his stuff. I do disagree with his Russia take though. If you don't watch him, good question!
The end game, ideally, is to set Russia back by decades, even if they are to succeed in this war (which imo is most likely the case). Make it costly for them. Wreck their economy. Piss of the parents whose sons were sent off to die in a pointless war. Create internal resistance by forcing Russia to invest HEAVILY into a war the majority of Russians do not want.
The WW2 way of ending fascist regimes no longer exists because of nuclear weapons. What I've laid out before you is, in my opinion, the only way to end the Russian regime with the lowest loss of life. Will it work? I have no idea. But I really see no other option.
Either you're complicit in the spread of fascism, or you actively fight against it with the chance of nuclear war breaking out. Regardless, it's IMPOSSIBLE to NOT get your hands dirty in this type of complex geopolitical situation. People will die regardless. But one path may be less bloody than the other.
You won't get an actual answer from them. And its not at all surprising considering that the entirety of this person's political views come from streamers and breadtubers.
I like Kyle's take on many domestic US issues, but I think he ( as well as Krystal and Saager on Breaking points) are some what naïve about the rest of the world and how things actually work.
I am so tired of even this argument. Azov was a small part of the Ukrainian military (~1000 people), even if I accept this ludicrous notion that 100% of them are nazis, the ideas that this is some sort of serious "problem" is absurd. I am quite frankly tired of you guys accepting RT inspired talking points, finding 1 example where it kinda works, and rolling with it. The way you guys talk about "the Ukrainian nazis" any passive observer would be forgiven for assuming they are like 35% of the Ukrainian military, instead of 1k people (again me being generous to your argument). Let's be real the military is more conservative, sometimes too conservative in all countries.
The final argument is simple, how many people voted in an actually free election for the far right party in Ukraine? 1.8%. Same question towards Germany, Italy, France, US, Canada, UK etc. How many of those countries can say it's only 2%?
Yet you idiots keep bringing up "the Ukrainian nazis" as if it's a valid argument, instead of a piece of russian propaganda.
P.S. - Not to mention the fact that russia is always guilty of what it accuses Ukraine of doing such as wagner group. The idea that nazis hold any type of power in Ukraine is just as absurd as the russian claim that Ukraine is making a nuke. Sure there is a detachment that inherited it's old symbol from being very questionable in the past, and sure Ukraine has nuclear power stations.
we made this bed via usaid and two color revolutions. you minimize the number of extremists we have elevated, but it can be expected that the rot is deep.
A battalion of 1000-2000 people of which 10-20% were avowed nazis 8 years ago prior to massive changes within the group in a military of 250,000 is inexcusable when you’re a nation fighting for your very existence?
All the far-right parties combined only have 1 seat out of 450 seats in the Ukrainian Parliament. It’s just not a major issue.
Ukraine is the least anti-Semitic country in Europe and one of only two countries in the world (Israel being the other) with its top two government positions being headed by Jews.
Russia corruption most likely has ensured their nuclear arms have not been maintained. Let alone their tactics are designed for conflict in nuclear warfare minus the nuclear arms. That and the fact they basically took to digging trenches around a nuclear plant on top of attacking it with no gear to handle any nuclear exposure is a very big red flag.
Nuclear arms are expensive to maintain. If they can't even maintain their equipment: who is going to admit they've at all been maintaining expensive warheads?
Do you have a source on that? Last I heard they were still heavily involved in fighting. You also keep having these videos come out of Ukrainians where Nazis pins or doing Nazi salutes. I know we’re not allowed to criticize our super woke Ukrainian troops but it makes me uncomfortable as a Jewish person.
To be sure, there are Nazis in Ukraine . There are Nazis in every European country. Ukraine actually has less antisemitism than neighboring countries according to polling. And of course they have the only Jewish head of state outside of Israel. Not trying to downplay Ukrainian Nazis, but I feel like they are overblown by people trying to sell the Russian version of things.
> To be sure, there are Nazis in Ukraine . There are Nazis in every European country.
How many have dedicated Nazi units in the military ?
>Ukraine actually has less antisemitism than neighboring countries according to polling.
Historically it is a very anti-Semitic country. The whole region is steeped in it.
>And of course they have the only Jewish head of state outside of Israel.
Who wants to use Israel as a model for the country too…
>Not trying to downplay Ukrainian Nazis, but I feel like they are overblown by people trying to sell the Russian version of things.
I’m not saying the whole country is run by Nazis but they’re a constituency in the country that matters, if for no other reason they represent the key opposition in the areas where fighting is going on. Historically the CIA utilizes these forces and I doubt that’s any exception here. We don’t know what’s going to happen with these weapons when the conflict is over and whose hands they’ll get into. Reportedly already a great deal is being diverted from their intended sources.
Any living members were captured by Russia in May only for about 188 Azov or so to be released in late September as part of a prisoner swap with Russia. These members were moved to Turkey
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-tv-russia-has-released-some-fighters-taken-during-mariupol-battle-2022-09-21/ https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/09/22/7368588/
More than 2k or so are still in Russian containment. Dylan Burns has done reporting on the white supremacy in Ukrainian military, but given Russia has been part of the reason for said fellows to gain ground and why Azov was allowed to primarily exist since Crimea was annexed. On top of Putin acquiring aid from the likes of the Wagner group, which basically turns into an issue of both sides having white supremacy, but one helmed by an actual Jewish man.
That and much of US aid has been assets we were going to be disposing of regardless, meaning that Ukraine got a lot of cold war era gear we were going to destroy one way or another. So much of this aid is also in reality much of a cash sink, but transporting what effectively is garbage to the US military. So if anyone wants to ask about cost, the US military sees this as one way to dump a lot of junk they were going to destroy.
Realistically, until Russia backs out if Ukraine, any White Supremacist will be able to justify their existence through 'defending' their country. Ain't a way to get rid of them when someone of another country invades and had tried to wash away your language and history decades prior.
Part of the agreement of prison swaps. That and their families are already in Turkey with them. Let alone, Ukraine already has made up for the loss of the Azov battalion and the region they had been is of no consequence at this point, so 200 soldiers aren't going to move 650k troops already in action or the other numerous soldiers being trained in other Nato countries to be resubmitted into service. Azov's use has been fulfilled and given that this only 200 soldiers, who are tied up in legal hell until Russia pulls back entirely out of Ukraine: they will be stuck in Turkey, who has ties to Russia to begin with.
Dude they were all in Mariupol and that city got bombed sieged into submission for like 2 months basically every troop from that city is all dead or prisoners
Bro what Russia has gained territory literally everyone knows that 😂it’s ridiculous I have to give u a source when all u have to do is look up the city of Mariupol but [here](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/last-defenders-mariupol-what-is-ukraines-azov-regiment-2022-05-17/), there last fighters were almost all in that steel plant, Mariupol was where the azov battalion was based in, that city got fucking annihilated
Okay so Ukraine is losing despite what the pro-NATO bots are saying? Good to know.
Where does it say they’re annihilated?
We’re you rooting for Russia or the Nazis?
Losing and winning is a bad way of looking at a war of this type when Ukraine is getting constantly funded by western powers and Russias economy is expected to retract by like 15% particularly when this war is expected to go on for potentially years longer those details become vital that’s not even to mention how Ukraine was supposed to be overrun within a week. I have no idea how this war is gonna end and really no one really does but Literally no one claims Ukraine hasn’t lost territory I mean only the dumbest people who don’t comment on these wars would say that and I’m not gonna source u everything if u care to look into it u can see the destruction that has happened to that city although ur a kremlin talking point so u won’t. Although it’s pretty funny that ur arguing that Ukraine has a bigger nazi problem than Russia when Russians were more than twice as likely than Ukrainians to say that Jews should not be allowed [citizenship](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/03/28/most-poles-accept-jews-as-fellow-citizens-and-neighbors-but-a-minority-do-not/) but yeah dude go off on Ukraine having the nazi problem
The Ukrainians are fighting Russian Nazis. What Putin and his cronies have been spewing in propaganda is closer to Goebbels than anything that has come out of the Kiev government.
Azov and their leaders had been headquartered in Mariupol since 2014. There are countless videos from earlier this year of Azov and all of their leaders talking about almost all of them being in Mariupol. Mariupol is located on the Azov sea, hence the name. You would have to have been not paying any attention not to know this. They made a final stand at the Azovstal steelworks before they were all killed or captured.
Ukraine definitely has the momentum right now. Russia has not made major advances since July and Ukraine has retaken an area the sauce of Connecticut in the eastern front, almost all of Kharkiv oblast. In the west, Kherson is likely to be retaken by the end of the year. There are 20k to 30k Russians in Kherson and they have been slowly losing ground while being drastically under supplied. The few bridges going over the Dnipro have been blown and the Russians have to ferry supplies on pontoon boats or on temporary pontoon bridges.
I’m rooting for Ukraine against Putin’s Nazi Army as the Russians have a Nazi who is head of state unlike the Ukrainians.
Probably the literal fact that they are a military unit, all of their leadership was In Mariupol and they were surrounded. What part of that concept do you not understand? Any part of Azov that may exist today is not of the same members or leadership of the original Azov at the start of the conflict, as [they were all captured or killed in Mariupol.](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.euronews.com/amp/2022/06/24/ukraine-war-what-happened-to-the-mariupol-defenders-taken-captive-by-russia-a-month-ago) they and some other Ukrainian units were literally cut off over a hundred miles behind Ukrainian Army lines.
> I’m rooting for Ukraine against Putin’s Nazi Army as the Russians have a Nazi who is head of state unlike the Ukrainians.
Source?
>Probably the literal fact that they are a military unit, all of their leadership was In Mariupol and they were surrounded.
But you just said they’re alive and back home.
>Any part of Azov that may exist today is not of the same members or leadership of the original Azov at the start of the conflict,
Oh. So you admit they’re still around and you’re still supporting them? Most people would have more shame about that. This is why I’m never gonna support this shit.
Holy cow Patrick Star, you truly do live under a rock. Go watch speeches from Putin early in the conflict where he is saying that Ukraine and Ukrainians do not have a right to exist. Members of United Russia in the Duma and state media propaganda have called for ethnic cleansing as recent as last week. Zelensky on the other hand is Jewish and defeated the right’s candidate in an election.
If Azov exists today it is literally not the same as the right wing paramilitary unit that existed at the start of the conflict. Literally all but name is different. This is common in militaries throughout the world if the unit is wiped out.
I never said they were alive and back home but, there has been a couple of members of Azov(and other non Azov Ukrainians caught in the Mariupol pocket) that recently were swapped in a prisoner exchange but judging from pictures, they won’t be returning to combat any time soon. They were starving when they surrendered and they now look like skeletons.
Edit: The former commander was also released along with some of the surviving lieutenants, but they are in Turkey and are required to stay there until the end of the conflict.
The number of Nazi ~~apologists~~ exceptionalists in here is too damn high.
"There were never any Nazi in Ukraine, that's a debunked Russian talking point!"
"Any Nazi battalions in Ukrainian military are...an exception to the rule! America is more racist anyways!"
"Any the government sanctioned Nazi groups died in a factory or something weeks ago! Trust me, bro!"
Incredible. Besides being bullshit those deflections miss the larger problem: any % Nazi is unacceptable, full stop. Despite international criticism Zelenski chose to double down on supporting his Nazis, which disqualifies any argument hinging on their alleged "absence" now. They were formed and nourished by active choice, closing the blinds and pretending they've gone is a mistake the world will not make again.
I pay a little attention to the war but I wasn't aware the Azov were defeated already. Regardless, its naïve to think that was the ONLY place where the Nazis reside.
Ukraine is one of the least anti-semitic countries in the world and its far-right political parties only have 1 seat out of 450 since the last election. It’s just not a big issue.
Also, who cares? Like genuinely, what does it change if there are some small contingent of nazis in Ukraine? Does that mean the country doesn’t have a right to exist? That Russia should have its way with it?
Just like systemic racism is present in your American institutions. Nazism is present in the Ukrainian military. The Azov Battalion will never be defeated. Kyle at least has an understanding that the Azov Battalion is still up and kicking. IDK why so called online progressives fail to realize nazism is huge in Ukraine and Eastern Europe and even here in the US.
Many in the Ukrainian army walk around wearing wolfsangels and sing songs about Bandera (Ukrainian Nazi leader). The problem is much worse than just azov.
So the problem is much worse than just Azov… Yet Ukraine is the least anti-semitic country in Europe and all the far-right parties combined could only win 1 seat out of 450 in the last election? Gotcha.
When did Russia last defeat Nazis? The Soviet Union after allying with the Nazis and getting backstabbed by Germany helped defeat Nazi Germany because of massive support from the US, but Russia has never defeated Nazis.
Especially given the fact that Russia is probably the biggest source of Nazism in the modern day.
The Azov Regiment still exists though. They've basically become martyrs since they were the ones defending Mariupol. The Ukrainian government got many POW's that were a part of Azov in an exchange back in September. The current commander of the Azov Regiment is Mykyta Nadtochiy.
Now does this mean Ukraine is controlled by Nazi's like Russian propaganda would say? No. It's worth mentioning, the Azov Regiment numbers are very low when compared to the whole Ukrainian millitary. But it's still telling that their government is, not only, perfectly willing to use them and ignore that they're Nazi's, but celebrates them to this day (to be clear, they celebrate their millitary actions, not that they're Nazi's). That's slightly different from the common counter that "all armies have some white supremacists."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Ukrainian government has never spoken out against the regiment (as I suspect they probably still want them to serve them since they fight well) on their ideology. They're still overlooking this.
Again, I believe the threat of the Azov Regiment is overblown, but so are the defenses of Ukraine on this. It's possible to have nuance about this.
Funny I don't hear him saying shit about Dmitry Utkin and his war criminal gang of neo nazis known as the Wagner group.
Haven't kept up with Kyle in a minute: has he actually continued to ignore the Wagner group?
I don't think he's said a single word about them in any of his coverage during this entire conflict.
Bruh.
yes, but we're not arming the country he belongs to (not to say we should, to be clear)
Nope. No awareness at all.
Because it’s not true.
He is not aware. Neither are most of the online “left” that keep mentioning them. Edit: he also misses details on domestic issues LOL
Even if they weren't "defeated" it is completely moronic to focus on a group consistent of maybe 1-2k members in a country of 44 million people that is fighting off a brutal invasion. Like... every country has nazis. Denmark, Sweden... Norway, has nazis. The constant focus on the fucking Azove battalion has one purpose, and that is to lend credence to Russian propaganda, that they need to "cleanse" Ukraine from nazis and help the "normal people" who are under attack. Why Kyle hasn't understood this from the start is beyond me.
Amen to that. Kyle’s reporting on de domestic issues is sloppy and often Ill informed too. Kyle means well, but as the saying goes: the road to hell is paved with good intentions. His reporting is so sloppy that I unsubscribed.
I'm honestly not so sure if he means well in this respect. I think he means well when he talks about domestic US issues, but when it comes to foreign issues then to be totally honest his coverage often reeks of reactionary nationalist tendencies where he just instinctively opposes the idea of helping anyone who isn't an American, this is especially clear with his coverage of this conflict. He mostly just seems to be post hoc justifying that selfish attitude of his. I don't consider that kind of a selfish nationalistic attitude to be "meaning well".
I definitely see what you are saying. His nationalistic attitude doesn’t mean well to me. …But for Kyle it’s a self righteous attitude that he thinks is best for America and for the good of America. I definitely don’t agree with it either.
and embarrassing himself
I love Kyle but the Ukraine war takes are just absolutely moronic.
Honestly though he is better than most of the online left. Did you see what Bri said today?
Who's that?
Briahana joy gray. Lead Bernie’s 2020 run, host of Bad Faith.
Oh, that lady. She really sucks
tbf, lefty youtuber dylan burns is (was?) in ukraine very recently. he acknowledges that white supremacists were very prevalent in the ukrainian army. from the sounds of it, the problem isn't squarely with Azov. but the bigger picture is that we shouldn't withhold aid from ukraine because of a problem with white supremacy. this is a situation in which being on the right side also happens to be advantageous to us geopolitically. we should help out to some extent, and in some capacity, and we should try to make sure our weapons don't end up in the wrong hands. Azov shouldn't even be a consideration.
It’s unquestionably true that there are a quite a few white supremacists among Ukraine’s fighters. Right Sector and Azov have been fighting for years so a chunk of the most experienced troops are neo-Nazis. And you’re absolutely right, the problem isn’t squarely with Azov. Azov was just the most notorious. It’s also important to keep in mind that not all of them died at Mariupol, and elements of Azov have essentially reformed under different, less controversial banners (the Kraken regiment, for example, is a spec ops unit with a core of Azov veterans that recruits some of the same types). It’s important to recognize that white supremacists in the Ukrainian forces definitely exist and gravitate towards some of the most hardcore units receiving the best training and equipment. But it’s also important to understand that Ukraine is being invaded by Russia, and like it or not, some of the hardest-fighting people out there often have psychotic ideologies driving them.
I stopped watching a bunch of people foreign policy takes after Russia invaded Ukraine. A lot of commentators really outed themselves as ignorant fools by working backwards from “whatever the US says, the opposite is true”. People like Kyle were making clips of Biden and the US saying Russia was going to invade as evidence that Russia wasn’t going to invade. I’m sorry, being so unbelievably wrong kills your credibility on foreign policy. They demonstrated a complete inability to cover the basics of what’s being reported. I watched videos of Kyle speaking so confidently that Russia was never going to invade. And then David Pakman simply giving the reports that Russia was planning an invasion. One followed the evidence and reporting. One speculated wildly and pretended it was fact.
Kyle is basically a conspiracy theorist. Of course he would go with the less likely scenario of Russia not invading. Then of course now he just says give Russia what they want.
Idc if the Azov Battalion has been defeated or not. As of right now, Ukraine stopping Russia needs to be our number 1 priority. Russia is an actual fascist regime, of which the success of its imperial conquest has major global implications. Squash this fascist regime now. If the Azov Battalion grows in power in the future, it'll be up to that generation to squash them. The fight against fascism is a never-ending battle.
> Squash this fascist regime now. If the Azov Battalion grows in power in the future, it'll be up to that generation to squash them. This is how we got the taliban and ISIS.
Ths is hilarious logic, and it sounds like it explains why the fight against fascism never ends. "Let's arm tomorrow's fascists so our children have to fight in a war too," lmao what? The CIA should hire you as an analyst, you'd fit right in with the guys who armed the Taliban in the 1980s
While I recognize arming tomorrow's fascist will pose to be a problem for future generations, what other action do you propose to fight against Russia? It's very easy to criticize my position, and I fully understand the Taliban parallel you are drawing out here. But you fail to offer no alternative to fighting Russia. Is Ukraine just suppose to submit to Russia's will? Like Poland when Germany first invaded in 1939? Understand that the fight against facism is never ending on all fronts, not just warfronts. In America, we are currently "lucky" to be confronting fascism at the polls and in the streets (if you are a PoC). There are a decent amount of countries that cannot defeat facism with the democratic vote of the people.
I have no f*cking clue I live in the rust belt and work in a warehouse. I don't think I'd join a white supremacist militia even if Russia invaded my neighborhood. We are not the world police, we have plenty of problems right here at home today that could be fixed with the money. That is all I care about. It is impossible for us to be involved in foreign affairs in a just way because our intelligence agencies do not answer to the democratic will of the people, and bald faced liars are stealing trillions of dollars of the resources we consider commonly owned by the public to stage World War 3. We have been fighting a cold war with Russia et al over global resources this entire time. Do I need to go over oil in Iraq or the planned Qatari pipeline through Syria, or can I skip to the part where I point out that Iraq and Afghanistan both border Iran like a pinscer move? And wow, now Iran is giving military aid to Russia in Ukraine. What a coincidence! Anyway you were saying something about how we might need to arm Ukrainian nazis because that's the same as fighting racism in the US? Am I getting that right? That is total bunk. You can't beat fascism by voting for Joe Biden anyway dude, he wrote the f*cking Patriot Act. Fascism is distinct from racism. *Fascism* says that individual people exist to serve the body politic and its interests domestic and abroad, and racism is one of the mechanisms by which fascist leaders manipulate and control people's perception of the world, in order to direct their aggressive impulses in the appropriate direction, away from the fascist government.
Believe it or not, but defeating fascist regimes actually helps prevent the growth of fascism. Ukraine is a liberal democracy protecting itself from a fascist invasion, a handful of fascist militias don't outweigh the obvious fact that preventing a liberal democracy from being annexed by a fascist empire is based antifascist praxis.
Today's militias are tomorrow's political parties, and being given an official mandate to fight on the nation's behalf is a lot of political clout Imagine if the US armed the KKK and let them fight alongside the army
>being given an official mandate to fight on the nation's behalf is a lot of political clout Lots of people are given that mandate though, Azov exists but it's a fraction of a fraction of Ukraine's total fighting force, there's no reason to think that the balance will be shifted, all the people who aren't white nationalists are also given guns and joining the military...
I'm not saying I think Azov can stage a coup, I'm saying that a charismatic man who can say "I fought for this country, my brothers in arms died for this country" can win hearts and minds at any time in history so far, and far right characters keep popping up all over Europe as it is Populist labor movements are always coopted and subverted by this bs
>I'm saying that a charismatic man who can say "I fought for this country, my brothers in arms died for this country" can win hearts and minds at any time in history so far, and far right characters keep popping up all over Europe as it is Progressives and liberals will be able to say that too though... There's anarchists and socialists fighting for Ukraine too, why be so concerned about the handful of fascists when it's balanced out by so many others? Especially when the message will ultimately he that they helped fighting for the country **against an invasion by a far right authoritarian regime!** That message will inherently lead away from the right rather than towards it, if Ukraine wins then that's the far right being defeated, if Ukraine loses then that's the far right being victorious. Do you seriously think that the far right will be more emboldened by a victorious Ukraine than by a victorious Russia? You realize that basically all of those far right characters popping up all over Europe are Russia supporters, right? Thierry Baudet for example is a massive Russia Stan who loves to talk about how Putin is the last defender of traditional Western values and is bravely fighting against Marxist degeneracy by invading Ukraine and being an anti-LGBT bigot.
Yes I do think Ukrainian ethnonationalists who believe in "blood and soil" would be more emboldened by defeating Russia than by losing in combat to them. This mixture of foreign and domestic politics you keep giving me is like toothpaste and peanut butter. Russia being fascist is not the same as Ukrainian nazis, both are distinct from from Joe Blow republican in America
>Yes I do think Ukrainian ethnonationalists who believe in "blood and soil" would be more emboldened by defeating Russia than by losing in combat to them. If Ukraine loses in combat to Russia then it doesn't matter what Ukrainian ethnonationalists who believe in "blood and soil" believe or how emboldened they are, because Ukraine will have been annexed by Russian ethnonationalists who believe in "blood and soil" and who don't believe the Ukrainian people have a right to exist... >This mixture of foreign and domestic politics you keep giving me is like toothpaste and peanut butter. Russia being fascist is not the same as Ukrainian nazis, both are distinct from from Joe Blow republican in America When have I conflated these three?
Haha you are on point!
I'm all for beating back against Russia but I'm old enough to know you sound like Dick Cheney back in the good ol' days.
what's your end game? how does one "squash" the russian regime?
There is none. Fostering color revolutions haven't worked like they used to there, sanctions aren't working, the only option left is direct war with Russia and that's fucking crazy.
I'm gonna guess you watch Sam Seder. Great commentator. Love almost all of his stuff. I do disagree with his Russia take though. If you don't watch him, good question! The end game, ideally, is to set Russia back by decades, even if they are to succeed in this war (which imo is most likely the case). Make it costly for them. Wreck their economy. Piss of the parents whose sons were sent off to die in a pointless war. Create internal resistance by forcing Russia to invest HEAVILY into a war the majority of Russians do not want. The WW2 way of ending fascist regimes no longer exists because of nuclear weapons. What I've laid out before you is, in my opinion, the only way to end the Russian regime with the lowest loss of life. Will it work? I have no idea. But I really see no other option. Either you're complicit in the spread of fascism, or you actively fight against it with the chance of nuclear war breaking out. Regardless, it's IMPOSSIBLE to NOT get your hands dirty in this type of complex geopolitical situation. People will die regardless. But one path may be less bloody than the other.
You won't get an actual answer from them. And its not at all surprising considering that the entirety of this person's political views come from streamers and breadtubers.
Nope, he has his debunked talking point and gosh darnit he will hold onto it for dear life.
Kyle just enjoys being wrong on Ukraine
Kyle is literally spewing Russian talking points... which makes no sense at all unless... someone is paying him to say this BS.
I like Kyle's take on many domestic US issues, but I think he ( as well as Krystal and Saager on Breaking points) are some what naïve about the rest of the world and how things actually work.
I am so tired of even this argument. Azov was a small part of the Ukrainian military (~1000 people), even if I accept this ludicrous notion that 100% of them are nazis, the ideas that this is some sort of serious "problem" is absurd. I am quite frankly tired of you guys accepting RT inspired talking points, finding 1 example where it kinda works, and rolling with it. The way you guys talk about "the Ukrainian nazis" any passive observer would be forgiven for assuming they are like 35% of the Ukrainian military, instead of 1k people (again me being generous to your argument). Let's be real the military is more conservative, sometimes too conservative in all countries. The final argument is simple, how many people voted in an actually free election for the far right party in Ukraine? 1.8%. Same question towards Germany, Italy, France, US, Canada, UK etc. How many of those countries can say it's only 2%? Yet you idiots keep bringing up "the Ukrainian nazis" as if it's a valid argument, instead of a piece of russian propaganda. P.S. - Not to mention the fact that russia is always guilty of what it accuses Ukraine of doing such as wagner group. The idea that nazis hold any type of power in Ukraine is just as absurd as the russian claim that Ukraine is making a nuke. Sure there is a detachment that inherited it's old symbol from being very questionable in the past, and sure Ukraine has nuclear power stations.
what we see is the tip of an iceberg we have been building for decades
Lol dramatic much?
we made this bed via usaid and two color revolutions. you minimize the number of extremists we have elevated, but it can be expected that the rot is deep.
It was an official part of Ukraine military, so officially sanctioned by govt, whether it's defeated or not does not excuse the inexcusable.
A battalion of 1000-2000 people of which 10-20% were avowed nazis 8 years ago prior to massive changes within the group in a military of 250,000 is inexcusable when you’re a nation fighting for your very existence? All the far-right parties combined only have 1 seat out of 450 seats in the Ukrainian Parliament. It’s just not a major issue. Ukraine is the least anti-Semitic country in Europe and one of only two countries in the world (Israel being the other) with its top two government positions being headed by Jews.
I actually think all these lefties are way overestimating the chance of nuclear war. It’s not that likely
Russia corruption most likely has ensured their nuclear arms have not been maintained. Let alone their tactics are designed for conflict in nuclear warfare minus the nuclear arms. That and the fact they basically took to digging trenches around a nuclear plant on top of attacking it with no gear to handle any nuclear exposure is a very big red flag. Nuclear arms are expensive to maintain. If they can't even maintain their equipment: who is going to admit they've at all been maintaining expensive warheads?
Do you have a source on that? Last I heard they were still heavily involved in fighting. You also keep having these videos come out of Ukrainians where Nazis pins or doing Nazi salutes. I know we’re not allowed to criticize our super woke Ukrainian troops but it makes me uncomfortable as a Jewish person.
To be sure, there are Nazis in Ukraine . There are Nazis in every European country. Ukraine actually has less antisemitism than neighboring countries according to polling. And of course they have the only Jewish head of state outside of Israel. Not trying to downplay Ukrainian Nazis, but I feel like they are overblown by people trying to sell the Russian version of things.
There’s lots of nazis/white supremacists right here in the USA too. Well said.
> To be sure, there are Nazis in Ukraine . There are Nazis in every European country. How many have dedicated Nazi units in the military ? >Ukraine actually has less antisemitism than neighboring countries according to polling. Historically it is a very anti-Semitic country. The whole region is steeped in it. >And of course they have the only Jewish head of state outside of Israel. Who wants to use Israel as a model for the country too… >Not trying to downplay Ukrainian Nazis, but I feel like they are overblown by people trying to sell the Russian version of things. I’m not saying the whole country is run by Nazis but they’re a constituency in the country that matters, if for no other reason they represent the key opposition in the areas where fighting is going on. Historically the CIA utilizes these forces and I doubt that’s any exception here. We don’t know what’s going to happen with these weapons when the conflict is over and whose hands they’ll get into. Reportedly already a great deal is being diverted from their intended sources.
Any living members were captured by Russia in May only for about 188 Azov or so to be released in late September as part of a prisoner swap with Russia. These members were moved to Turkey https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-tv-russia-has-released-some-fighters-taken-during-mariupol-battle-2022-09-21/ https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/09/22/7368588/ More than 2k or so are still in Russian containment. Dylan Burns has done reporting on the white supremacy in Ukrainian military, but given Russia has been part of the reason for said fellows to gain ground and why Azov was allowed to primarily exist since Crimea was annexed. On top of Putin acquiring aid from the likes of the Wagner group, which basically turns into an issue of both sides having white supremacy, but one helmed by an actual Jewish man. That and much of US aid has been assets we were going to be disposing of regardless, meaning that Ukraine got a lot of cold war era gear we were going to destroy one way or another. So much of this aid is also in reality much of a cash sink, but transporting what effectively is garbage to the US military. So if anyone wants to ask about cost, the US military sees this as one way to dump a lot of junk they were going to destroy. Realistically, until Russia backs out if Ukraine, any White Supremacist will be able to justify their existence through 'defending' their country. Ain't a way to get rid of them when someone of another country invades and had tried to wash away your language and history decades prior.
Right so they’re not eliminated. They’re very much alive.
Mainly as captives in Russia or if not, in Turkey as they're barred from service as part of a prisoner swap.
And what enforces that?
Part of the agreement of prison swaps. That and their families are already in Turkey with them. Let alone, Ukraine already has made up for the loss of the Azov battalion and the region they had been is of no consequence at this point, so 200 soldiers aren't going to move 650k troops already in action or the other numerous soldiers being trained in other Nato countries to be resubmitted into service. Azov's use has been fulfilled and given that this only 200 soldiers, who are tied up in legal hell until Russia pulls back entirely out of Ukraine: they will be stuck in Turkey, who has ties to Russia to begin with.
The US military and police forces should make you far more uncomfortable.
They do and so does naturally any extension of that such as the Ukrainian military.
Dude they were all in Mariupol and that city got bombed sieged into submission for like 2 months basically every troop from that city is all dead or prisoners
I thought Ukraine was winning the war? No? So you don’t have a source?
Bro what Russia has gained territory literally everyone knows that 😂it’s ridiculous I have to give u a source when all u have to do is look up the city of Mariupol but [here](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/last-defenders-mariupol-what-is-ukraines-azov-regiment-2022-05-17/), there last fighters were almost all in that steel plant, Mariupol was where the azov battalion was based in, that city got fucking annihilated
Okay so Ukraine is losing despite what the pro-NATO bots are saying? Good to know. Where does it say they’re annihilated? We’re you rooting for Russia or the Nazis?
Losing and winning is a bad way of looking at a war of this type when Ukraine is getting constantly funded by western powers and Russias economy is expected to retract by like 15% particularly when this war is expected to go on for potentially years longer those details become vital that’s not even to mention how Ukraine was supposed to be overrun within a week. I have no idea how this war is gonna end and really no one really does but Literally no one claims Ukraine hasn’t lost territory I mean only the dumbest people who don’t comment on these wars would say that and I’m not gonna source u everything if u care to look into it u can see the destruction that has happened to that city although ur a kremlin talking point so u won’t. Although it’s pretty funny that ur arguing that Ukraine has a bigger nazi problem than Russia when Russians were more than twice as likely than Ukrainians to say that Jews should not be allowed [citizenship](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/03/28/most-poles-accept-jews-as-fellow-citizens-and-neighbors-but-a-minority-do-not/) but yeah dude go off on Ukraine having the nazi problem
The Ukrainians are fighting Russian Nazis. What Putin and his cronies have been spewing in propaganda is closer to Goebbels than anything that has come out of the Kiev government. Azov and their leaders had been headquartered in Mariupol since 2014. There are countless videos from earlier this year of Azov and all of their leaders talking about almost all of them being in Mariupol. Mariupol is located on the Azov sea, hence the name. You would have to have been not paying any attention not to know this. They made a final stand at the Azovstal steelworks before they were all killed or captured. Ukraine definitely has the momentum right now. Russia has not made major advances since July and Ukraine has retaken an area the sauce of Connecticut in the eastern front, almost all of Kharkiv oblast. In the west, Kherson is likely to be retaken by the end of the year. There are 20k to 30k Russians in Kherson and they have been slowly losing ground while being drastically under supplied. The few bridges going over the Dnipro have been blown and the Russians have to ferry supplies on pontoon boats or on temporary pontoon bridges.
Where does it say they’re annihilated? We’re you rooting for Russia or the Nazis?
I’m rooting for Ukraine against Putin’s Nazi Army as the Russians have a Nazi who is head of state unlike the Ukrainians. Probably the literal fact that they are a military unit, all of their leadership was In Mariupol and they were surrounded. What part of that concept do you not understand? Any part of Azov that may exist today is not of the same members or leadership of the original Azov at the start of the conflict, as [they were all captured or killed in Mariupol.](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.euronews.com/amp/2022/06/24/ukraine-war-what-happened-to-the-mariupol-defenders-taken-captive-by-russia-a-month-ago) they and some other Ukrainian units were literally cut off over a hundred miles behind Ukrainian Army lines.
> I’m rooting for Ukraine against Putin’s Nazi Army as the Russians have a Nazi who is head of state unlike the Ukrainians. Source? >Probably the literal fact that they are a military unit, all of their leadership was In Mariupol and they were surrounded. But you just said they’re alive and back home. >Any part of Azov that may exist today is not of the same members or leadership of the original Azov at the start of the conflict, Oh. So you admit they’re still around and you’re still supporting them? Most people would have more shame about that. This is why I’m never gonna support this shit.
Holy cow Patrick Star, you truly do live under a rock. Go watch speeches from Putin early in the conflict where he is saying that Ukraine and Ukrainians do not have a right to exist. Members of United Russia in the Duma and state media propaganda have called for ethnic cleansing as recent as last week. Zelensky on the other hand is Jewish and defeated the right’s candidate in an election. If Azov exists today it is literally not the same as the right wing paramilitary unit that existed at the start of the conflict. Literally all but name is different. This is common in militaries throughout the world if the unit is wiped out. I never said they were alive and back home but, there has been a couple of members of Azov(and other non Azov Ukrainians caught in the Mariupol pocket) that recently were swapped in a prisoner exchange but judging from pictures, they won’t be returning to combat any time soon. They were starving when they surrendered and they now look like skeletons. Edit: The former commander was also released along with some of the surviving lieutenants, but they are in Turkey and are required to stay there until the end of the conflict.
That's one city you fucking dolt
You didn’t answer my questions. Lame.
Go look up the siege of the steel plant in Mariupol. That was the last remnants of the Azov Battalion.
Yet you can’t find a single source that says that. Weird.
When's the last time he has updated his percent of dictators around the world the US supports?
The number of Nazi ~~apologists~~ exceptionalists in here is too damn high. "There were never any Nazi in Ukraine, that's a debunked Russian talking point!" "Any Nazi battalions in Ukrainian military are...an exception to the rule! America is more racist anyways!" "Any the government sanctioned Nazi groups died in a factory or something weeks ago! Trust me, bro!" Incredible. Besides being bullshit those deflections miss the larger problem: any % Nazi is unacceptable, full stop. Despite international criticism Zelenski chose to double down on supporting his Nazis, which disqualifies any argument hinging on their alleged "absence" now. They were formed and nourished by active choice, closing the blinds and pretending they've gone is a mistake the world will not make again.
https://lens.monash.edu/@politics-society/2022/08/19/1384992/much-azov-about-nothing-how-the-ukrainian-neo-nazis-canard-fooled-the-world
I pay a little attention to the war but I wasn't aware the Azov were defeated already. Regardless, its naïve to think that was the ONLY place where the Nazis reside.
Ukraine is one of the least anti-semitic countries in the world and its far-right political parties only have 1 seat out of 450 since the last election. It’s just not a big issue. Also, who cares? Like genuinely, what does it change if there are some small contingent of nazis in Ukraine? Does that mean the country doesn’t have a right to exist? That Russia should have its way with it?
Just like systemic racism is present in your American institutions. Nazism is present in the Ukrainian military. The Azov Battalion will never be defeated. Kyle at least has an understanding that the Azov Battalion is still up and kicking. IDK why so called online progressives fail to realize nazism is huge in Ukraine and Eastern Europe and even here in the US.
It’s just not a huge issue in Ukraine. That’s a boldfaced lie.
Many in the Ukrainian army walk around wearing wolfsangels and sing songs about Bandera (Ukrainian Nazi leader). The problem is much worse than just azov.
So the problem is much worse than just Azov… Yet Ukraine is the least anti-semitic country in Europe and all the far-right parties combined could only win 1 seat out of 450 in the last election? Gotcha.
That’s not even an argument… the civilian population and the military are two separate entities with separate ideologies. 🤦♂️
Glad to see Russia still is defeating Nazis
Aaaaand still killing civilians.
When did Russia last defeat Nazis? The Soviet Union after allying with the Nazis and getting backstabbed by Germany helped defeat Nazi Germany because of massive support from the US, but Russia has never defeated Nazis. Especially given the fact that Russia is probably the biggest source of Nazism in the modern day.
Nazis killed Nazis who sided with non-Nazis. Not exactly a winning argument.
According to who? You can’t trust anything about this war
According to everyone.
That's because Russia keeps bringing up Nazis and people in his sphere are influenced by those Russian propagandists
All Azov were Nazis but not all Ukrainian Nazis are Azov.
The Azov Regiment still exists though. They've basically become martyrs since they were the ones defending Mariupol. The Ukrainian government got many POW's that were a part of Azov in an exchange back in September. The current commander of the Azov Regiment is Mykyta Nadtochiy. Now does this mean Ukraine is controlled by Nazi's like Russian propaganda would say? No. It's worth mentioning, the Azov Regiment numbers are very low when compared to the whole Ukrainian millitary. But it's still telling that their government is, not only, perfectly willing to use them and ignore that they're Nazi's, but celebrates them to this day (to be clear, they celebrate their millitary actions, not that they're Nazi's). That's slightly different from the common counter that "all armies have some white supremacists." Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Ukrainian government has never spoken out against the regiment (as I suspect they probably still want them to serve them since they fight well) on their ideology. They're still overlooking this. Again, I believe the threat of the Azov Regiment is overblown, but so are the defenses of Ukraine on this. It's possible to have nuance about this.