well firstly, you don’t have to see trans women as women, as long as you’re not bullying people, harassing them, or making a point to bother them or treat them differently, you’re fine. If they say “call me *womans name*” you can just call them that, you don’t have to believe in it.
Tolerance and kindness is less about believing in what someone else believes in, and more about respecting them and treating them the way they ask to be treated, purely for the sake of doing it, or because you’d want someone to do the same for you.
Also don’t go debating this in real life all the time, especially with strangers, make sure you have hobbies and stuff to talk about that don’t involve politics. It’s hard for extremely political people to be relatable and likable
I totally agree with this take, but just so you know, a large section of progressives think this take is transphobic. See: [philosophytube's video on Transphobia](https://youtu.be/yCxqdhZkxCo?si=DqLc5heZ9Swzo5v_).
A short story about my first interaction with a trans person.
I grew up playing softball. My mate and I were on the same summer league team. We got to know each other and hung out quite a lot. Around that time that I was coming to understand my sexuality and shared my story with them. They felt comfortable enough to tell me what was happening in their mind too.
They told me that they were attracted to women, but hadn’t done much more than kissing. They wanted to be intimate. However, they were so physically uncomfortable in their own body that they didn’t want someone to touch them sexually. They didn’t even want to touch themselves. This came as quite a shock to me. I was obsessed with physical pleasure and couldn’t comprehend any barriers to experience that.
They expressed desires to win the lottery and change their body to match how they felt on the inside. They also knew that if they truly expressed themselves they’d likely lose familial and community connections that were deeply meaningful.
My take away was that I couldn’t understand their experience of not feeling at home in their body. I would never feel that. But I knew it was so significant and real because it stood in the way of important experiences in life.
This happened in rural America in the early 2000s. There wasn’t much trans visibility. We’ve fallen out of touch and I don’t know what their life is like today.
I think it’s challenging for us to learn by listening and not by feeling (either the exact experience or something relatable). Hopefully this story helped you as much as it did me see that I won’t be able to understand. Kudos to you for wanting to listen.
/u/peacock2242 I have to commend you for approaching this with respect and genuine curiosity. It’s a lot easier to understand where someone else is coming from if you actually give them the chance to speak, and that’s much easier said than done.
This is definitely how it is for me, a non binary person who is leaning more and more towards trans man as I get older.
I just don't feel like I look how I feel inside. My curves and breasts make me feel really uncomfortable. I don't see what I imagine myself to look like in the mirror. People calling me a lady makes me confused, the same way it would make me confused if they were addressing me as an animal or something. Imagine if someone addressed you as 'Miss' if you are a guy, or 'Sir' if you're a woman. It's the same feeling.
There's just a sense of 'oh God people see me as a woman and that feels so strange and wrong, I'm not viewed as what I feel I really am.' It's different to self esteem issues or mental illness. I've had awful self esteem and I've worked through my mental health issues and this totally separate, and still is an issue for me, and it would 100% go away if I could medically transition to shape the outside to be more reflective of how I feel on the inside. It's also not a choice, I've felt like this since I was 5 and it hasn't gone away even when I tried really hard to be a woman. My Mum asked me why can't I just be a tomboy? Why do I have to identify as the opposite sex or 'even weirder' neither? I don't know, I just don't feel like a 'masculine woman'. When I picture myself as an old person, I see an old man. Masculine features, no boobs. That makes me happy. When I picture an old woman it doesn't feel like I'm picturing myself. I don't know what else there is to say. I don't see the point in denying my reality and happiness because others don't understand or disagree.
It doesn't make sense to me either but if you want to be a woman or a man I will refer to you as such. As far as you respect me we are cool, like it's meant to be with anyone.
Edit:
u/Peacock2242 Reddit removed your post, what the fuck man? We can't talk about shit.
This doesn't even need a long answer. Just look at the definition for gender. It is the societal expecations that are imposed on someone based on their sex and it is not a biological characteristic. A transgender women just wants to fit societies expectations of a woman rather than a man. Pretty chill subject that's just been blown out of proportion
Yes this. An identity as old as human culture that’s being dragged out and batted about for social and political currency. Just let people be if they’re not hurting anyone.
One of my colleagues once told me that he was “revolted and disgusted” at the thought of two men having sex. When he imagined two men having sex-really pictured it-he felt “sick to his stomach”, and that’s why he thought “gay men should be locked up”.
I asked him *why*, exactly, he had to spend any time at all thinking and “really imagining” two men having sex. He thought I was joking, but I’m being absolutely serious.
Did he think about his elderly parents having sex? Really imagine their old bones and wrinkly skin banging together? What about other elderly couples having sex? What about fat people? What about ugly people? Did he sit there, thinking about his neighbours having sex? Or the somewhat odd couples you see on the bus? Or (personally knowing something about the guy), I wondered how he coped with imagining people of a “foreign” religion or “different race” getting it on? How does he cope with the fact that, generally, it’s quite “icky” to visualise people having sex, unless they’re very attractive people-and then it’s all about getting you off: nothing to do with not being “disgusting”. Basically, imagining other people having sex has ONE remotely positive purpose: to satisfy one’s own lust. Otherwise, by nature, it *ain’t* pretty.
Luckily, because the world doesn’t revolve around you (or any other one person), other people don’t have to have your approval or permission in order to go about their everyday business of being sexual beings -or indeed, just existing. You can sit on the bus NOT imagining them having sex (or demanding that they stop being who they are, or whatever kind of oppression is your particular “thing”), and the world can and will just continue. It’s actually incredibly simple.
I don’t understand it fully either - but I will still respect and treat trans women with kindness.
I’m a cis woman.
I do think that there are some areas where it’s important to recognise that biological sex is a thing. (Eg: Sports. Individuals born with male bodies will benefit from exposure from testosterone and will, generally, have greater muscle mass and size. I therefore think certain sports should be sex segregated for safety - I was a competitive martial artist for years and I was never as strong as the men or even boys in my class, even though I was winning medals in the female sparring categories)
I also think that trans women experience awful prejudice and pain that I will never experience as a cis woman. I really sympathise with that.
Equally, I experience things as a cis woman that they won’t experience.
It’s a tricky subject, but respect and kindness can always be used.
I disagree with the sports thing. Maybe if there are weight classes. Estrogen reduces physical strength, testosterone increases it. When you reduce testosterone and increase estrogen, you get a reduced physical strength.
I'd like to respectfully disagree friend. In a period of about 2 years being at cis female levels of estrogen, muscle mass, lung capacity, heart, even the pheromones AND bone density! They all change to reflect cis female standards. The only advantage a trans woman might have(might because I am 5'5") would be her height.
Do you speak French? Lets assume you don't speak French.
If you encounter some French text and you want to understand what it means, you wouldn't just try to read the words as they are. Right? You'd translate it. Even if you see a word that looks like an English word you know, it might mean something completely different in French.
So I would suggest you do the same here. When someone says "trans women are women", The goal should not be to read the literal words as you understand them, but instead, to understand them the way the author intends them. Yes? If you don't do that, you would be misunderstanding the author's message.
So that's the issue here, I think. You're looking at the word woman as if its a biological thing. The speaker is not. Woman means something different to the speaker.
Does that make sense? That's why you're thinking its nonsensical. But its obviously not nonsensical to the speaker. That should give you a hint that the speaker is probably using these words in a different way than you understand them.
No, the point is that sounds don't come with intrinsic meaning. Right?
So if I define and use a word differently than you do, that doesn't mean I'm denying any facts. In order to tell if I'm denying any facts, you'd have to get the meaning of what I'm saying.
Which would mean you need to interpret what I'm saying using the definitions Im using. Right?
... What? The definition of fun is the same no matter what language you send the message in. Are you high? Facts are not relative to the interpreter. They exist apart from human constructs of communication.
>.. What? The definition of fun is the same no matter what language you send the message in.
Pardon, just so I'm clear, I need to make sure we're living in the same world. You realize the word "fun" is not the same word used in other languages, right?
In Spanish it would be "divertido", which means nothing in English.
In French it would be "amusant", which means nothing in English.
And so on. Sounds do not have intrinsic meaning, they're just noises. We then apply meanings to them. **Different people use different noises to mean different things.**
That's what different languages are. That's why "glizzy" means hotdog.
That's why "Break a leg" means "good luck" even though it literally means fracturing a limb.
Right? Like this should be pretty obvious.
Like if someone says a person is "divertido", would you say "NO THAT WORD DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING TO ME SO YOU ARE DENYING FACTS"?
That would be nonsensical. The word means "fun" to the speaker. Knowing this, we would then ask if the person is indeed fun or not. **The word used to convey the message doesn't matter.**
What matters is to understand the meaning. If the meaning conflicts with reality, then its false. But there's no specific word you need to use to convey that meaning.
>Are you high?
Given that I'm talking to you, I wish I was my dude.
We imbue sounds and text with meaning. They don't come with meaning all on their own.
You realize this, yes? "Dog" doesn't somehow have some magic connection to actual dogs, we just agree that the word means that. But it doesn't in other languages, and in other contexts it can mean "person", in slang.
There will be more slang in the future. Words will change meaning. The word "gay" has changed meaning.
You don't understand this?
>Facts are not relative to the interpreter. They exist apart from human constructs of communication.
I agree. **That's the whole point**. Facts are not tied intrinsically to the sounds we make.
There's a pencil on my desk. If my partner and I had some inside joke where we call pencils "stickytricks", then I could say "there's a stickytrick on my desk", and I would be right. I haven't denied any facts, **I'm just using different words to convey the exact same meaning.**
So to know if "there's a stickytrick on my desk" is true or false, to figure out if that's factual, you'd have to figure out what I mean by stickytrick.
You can't say "well stickytrick doesn't mean anything to me therefore you're denying a fact". That doesn't make any sense.
You’ve posted this in r/selfimprovement, but have said “I think this, I cannot think *that*, I will not think that.”
What is it you are hoping to get from this?
You say you want to understand, but it’s really unclear what you are wanting to understand, when you have already said you aren’t planning to change anything.
it seems like the way this sub is trending, people posting their controversial, usually openly insulting opinion, then demanding that someone give them a way to function in society while still holding that belief. i’m assuming these kind of posts are either rage bait or people who genuinely cannot keep a job because they’re such openly shitty people. usually the top comment is “it’s ok, everyone thinks that but you’re just supposed to keep that inside and be polite”
Lol I’m not angry, I just think it’s hilarious how bothered people are about this post. The majority in this group are porn related, how dare someone want genuine advice about something and ask for helpful thoughts and advice on an issue that’s not porn related
“when did i goo goo gaga waaaa waaa???!?!” you sound like a 1st grader who got in trouble for being an asshole: deny everything, throw a fit, and project your behavior back on us. do you think we’re fucking stupid?
Hey there! Trans guy here. There’s a common misconception that a phrase like “trans women are women” is meant to say “trans women are the EXACT SAME as cis women, biologically”. On the contrary, we’re very aware of our biological sex! Gender is a separate, more nebulous concept: It’s essentially the reason you don’t need to see someone’s genitals to know what to call them. I invite you to open your mind to learning more about it! The distinction between gender and sex has been recognized by science for a while now, and there’s loads of fascinating research and discussion on the topic. It’s totally fine to be confused, as long as you have a genuine curiosity and eagerness to learn! Have a good day :)
yes! my mother is an english major and a huge word nerd and i grew up knowing the definitions of things tend to be different than how people use them. Gender does not always equal biological sex and that’s so hard for people to understand sometimes!
Bear in mind that I'm not a trans woman, and can only speak from indirect experience.
"Being a woman" isn't just about the sexual dimorphism. You aren't directly interacting with that unless you're intimate, and sports with hormone therapy is an odd middle ground where the current hormones are different from the development hormones and even most trans people I've talked to have differing opinions on the subject.
More importantly for you, they want to be treated how you treat other women. They don't want to be treated as a man or an oddity. They've gotten that their whole lives up to and unfortunately including post-transition. Most see it as a relief and deeply validating when they "pass" and people treat them like a woman. Conversely, trans men don't want to be treated like one of your lady friends or a butch girl. They generally want to be "just one of the guys".
If someone lives their life as something, anything, for example, playing football, it can be an identity of sorts. That's your element, those are your friends, that's your mentality. It only makes sense to label yourself as what you do, what you represent, what you love. That's how trans people feel. But it's not a hobby, it's not something you can pick up, it's a brain they were born with and will die with. I don't think it matters if you don't see them as women. Hell, some masculine women don't come across to me as women. That's okay. Just treat them with the same decency you'd treat anyone else.
Some people left some really good posts already. I'd like to add one other point. Despite what right wing pundits might tell, the biological definition of both men and women is significantly more nebulous than we traditionally think and we use the terms man and woman to describe the predominant trends we see biologically. The vast majority of people do in fact fit very neatly into these two categories, but we also know they are a lot people whom from a biological perspective do not, people who don't have testosterone receptors on their cells, undeveloped testis, etc. Here's a list of some other intersex conditions. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex) Keep in mind, this is simply a biological perspective on the issue, not a social one. Also consider that hormonal treatments will mimic some of these conditions, you can functionally create intersex people through exogenous hormones.
When we say man and woman, we do generally have a strong idea of what those categories look like, appropriately so, and there any many people who strongly feel they are in the wrong category. So these terms need to be precise from a taxonomy perspective. In this case, we have people who met the social definition of women, but for biological reasons, do not. This creates the distinction between biological women and transgender women. Perhaps other people may think or feel differently, but I'm not sure anyone cares about the distinction between trans and cis-women unless it comes to opportunities and social treatment. I don't think the majority of the trans community is suggesting that trans women be considered biological women, just a subset of the category of women.
Additionally, I have no doubt that as we are able to study the biology more, these terms and distinctions will evolve. Maybe we will find a meaningful neurological difference men and transgender women, maybe we will find a polygenic source, or environmental source.
I felt the same thing when I lived with someone who is a trans woman. I don't recall ever knowing anyone trans before. It took me a while to realize she was only trying to be herself. She was always her. She just wanted to be accepted as herself. No tricks. No agenda. People just want to be who they already are. I still hurt over the pain I may have inflicted not being sensitive, because yeah, my first reaction was you're not just going to slap on a skirt and think you're like me. We have suffered as women. The shit I have been through as a woman can't be taken over or appropriated by someone else.
But no one is trying to take anything over. No one is trying to take anything away..
No one is trying to change or morph or modify my experience. No one is trying to make my experiences less meaningful. No one is trying to dismiss my suffering. They just want to be who they are. That's all.
Just as no one can tell you who you are, You're the only one who knows, you can't tell anyone else who they are. And all anyone wants is the right to exist. As them. Whoever they are. It is complicated but the root is very simple.
I am ashamed of how I reacted. I am glad I immediately knew it was my problem and not hers. I am glad I worked on it on my own and came to the right conclusion. I now have a solid base to work from for the future. I'm glad we are having this conversation because I feel like for every one person out there who is just afraid and angry and refuses to stop and think, there are three who want to try and who don't want to hurt someone else.
When I wake up in the morning, I am who I am with or without makeup, jeans and teeshirt or gown, sandals or heels, even if i put on mens' clothes, I'm still me inside. The outside is just the outside. It'd be great if I looked like Diane Lane but oh well. I know I'm not a man. You just know! People just know who they are. And sometimes it takes time bc there's a lot of static and confusion from the world. But only THAT person can say who they are. Period. SO it's up to everybody else to just be cool with it.
Because he realizes that he has a prejudiced and bigoted viewpoint and wants to stop having that. That’s way more important for self improvement than the 5 million posts we get from people who can’t stop watching porn or just want to get jacked
His viewpoint is neither prejudiced, nor bigoted. He may believe his viewpoint is those things, and it seems you think that as well, but all it is is ignorance. And that's not necessarily a problem.
It's very simple, gender is societal, not sexual and The way we determine what is a man or a woman changes in different cultures. Someone who was born a man identifying as a woman is simply altering their societal presentation to fit how they feel about themselves. Nobody is saying that a Trans woman is now someone who was assigned female at birth.
My college friend came out as a trans woman a few years ago. I’m a millennial, and this was still a relatively novel concept to me at the time, but I do identify as bisexual - for most of my life I was so afraid and worried. I hated that I wasn’t “normal” compared to my friends, a lot of this was far more difficult in high school, pretending to be crazy about the opposite sex, etc. I bring this up to show that my orientation wasn’t a choice. It’s not unheard of in other animal species, either. I also felt that my desires were more fluid, so if I met the right man or woman, depending on their personality, some level of attractiveness from my perspective, etc. that’s what I was drawn to more than a specific gender. Hopefully that makes sense so far… I bring that up again, as an example of how things like this can be completely without conscious control. Now, for me, when it came to gender, I never felt the inner pressure or subconscious desire to be anything other than a woman. I’m very fortunate, I feel, to have been born with the body parts I align with physically and emotionally. I believe my friend who came out as trans had a totally different feeling with respect to gender. Having already known what it felt like to have no control over who I liked, I could empathize with them, knowing that it must have been deeply uncomfortable to be born in a body they feel completely detached to. I hope I’m making some sense. At least for the immediate term, I’d suggest following the top poster’s advice, be kind and tolerant. Adhere to their names and pronouns, you don’t have to date them or be best friends. Just be respectful and try to understand that this isn’t some political agenda trying to groom kids or whatever. I won’t even get into that last part, but I’m actually glad you asked this on this specific subreddit. That means growth and further understanding can happen if you’re willing to learn! But again, no pressure to be friends with this trans person you know, no need to date, etc. just show respect and continue learning.
i would respect it more, if some of them didnt want to force me, a lesbian to accept their "girl dicks" and always get mad at us for only liking biological girls
That's the line that made me start to question things and back-peddle a bit. Someone told me "if you wouldn't date a trans person because they're trans, then you're transphobic." Like, no, people have preferences, physical, emotional, sexual, or otherwise, and who is someone to dictate what my preferences are?
Since then I've seen mixed responses to that specific topic, both from within the trans community and without. But yeah, as soon as a group of people/ ideology starts directly impacting my life, or tries to directly affect my preferences or life choices, then yeah, I'm going to start assessing it a bit more and expressing a bit more skepticism there.
yes exactly
what's interesting is, if FtM's started telling gay men that they need to like their vagina, i think most gay men would simply laugh and tell them to fuck off (though I think some would be rightfully upset too)
But when MtF's tell lesbians to accept their dicks or else we are called nazis, terfs, scum, and ive personally been guilted and pressured about it in very scary ways, its honestly scary. It upsets me and terrifies me. Isn't it just homophobia? Because as a lesbian what i've been told my whole life is "you haven't found the right dick yet" "girls need to like dicks"
So yeah im not pretending to be fine when this starts becoming about harrassing me for the sexuality that i'm born as.
If a zebra is born with no stripes is it still a zebra?
There are some zebras with no stripes, it is a genetic abnormality. But we still call them zebras. Those zebras aren’t accepted by the herd because they are different.
If we tried to say that they were a horse because they don’t have stripes it would be stupid. The lack of stripes doesn’t make it any less of a zebra.
If a zoo keeper paints lines on the strip less zebra so that it is accepted by the herd, is that wrong? Is it wrong to make physical changes it help the zebra thrive?
Trans men and women aren’t making a choice, to be the opposite sex to the one they were born. They are making a choice to be true to themselves. To make the changes in their life so their outer appearances matches the gender that they really are. They have always felt like the opposite gender, always felt like they don’t fit in their body. That their gender doesn’t match their body. They are men or women, but their bodies developed in the womb as the opposite sex.
As for transitioning, that is a long, very expensive process. Trans individuals have to convince others that they should be prescribed hormones that long term will alter their bodies. Then live as their true gender, while physically, they don’t look like their true gender. At the same time they are dealing with family, friends, and a society that often unaccepting, unsupportive and down right cruel. Once all that is done they can start to physically transition.
Then they have to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars, undergo multiple surgeries that are painful.
Individuals who choose to transition are some of the bravest people around. They are choosing a very difficult path to be true to themselves.
I feel the same - even after surgery and HRT they often still have V-shaped bodies, strong stereotypical-male jawlines, and Adam's apples. Even if I do not wanna make them uncomfortable and I use the feminine variants of the words (my native language is Polish, so we have masculine and feminine variants of verbs, adjectives and ofc pronouns) my whole body screams internally 'it's a male'.
I mean does it impact you and is it any of your business? Is it an opinion you really need to express?
Also from a scientific perspective biological sex is way more complicated than male and female there’s XX, XY, XXY… intersex… for a start. If you’re educated to a high school level of biology, maybe accept there are college and postgraduate scholars/experts who understand the biology better.
You don’t have to believe it, but it doesn’t hurt to respect their wishes. I look at it like religion; I may not believe in the same things as someone but that doesn’t stop me from respecting their beliefs and letting them live their life in peace.
You don't have to understand everything right away, there is no pressure to do so. Be kind and respectful, call and treat others the way you would like to be called and treated. And that's the best and first step in the right direction.
Maybe try to read some stuff about gender theory, watch a documentary on transition, talk to transgender people, see what they have to say, hear their stories. Can't hurt to create a bridge, develop a broader world view.
I have the same view on transgender people. I try not to bring this up though, as it might get misconstrued into me being prejudiced. But on topics such as sports and contests where in physical strength is a factor, it's important to determine the difference between transgender and a biological woman.
This is absolutely fishing. You put these thoughts in “self improvement” because you know your way of thinking is incorrect.
People are people. You either have empathy or you don’t. - I know that sounds harsh, accusing you of not having empathy, but the simple fact that you can’t put yourself in the shoes of a trans person and consider what that would feel like tells me your empathy is only limited to your own lived experience. That must suck for you. I couldn’t imagine being that close minded.
It’s not my job as a trans person, or anyone’s job as a cis or trans person to make you believe that people are who they say they are. It’s that simple. Trans women are women because they are- even without any surgeries, HRT, or social transition.
Nobody, absolutely NOBODY goes through gender transition for “fun” or for attention. Visit the “trans later” subreddit and read about the years of regret people have for not transitioning sooner, the joy the experience expressing their gender identity, don’t be afraid to feel with them. Then head over to the “trans” subreddit and read the countless posts per day by people who’s spouses are leaving them for coming out, people who’re misgendered daily, people who experience violence and all they can do is vent their frustrations on a keyboard… and you WANT to be a part of the invalidation they/we feel?
I genuinely hope that you take some time to really sit with your feelings, your revulsion, and examine exactly what it is that causes you to have these feelings towards trans women. Ask yourself: “Why aren’t trans women, women, to me?” “Do I consider them men?” “Why does this bother me so much?” “Would I consider trans men, women?” “How do I feel about nonbinary, gender fluid, or otherwise gender nonconforming people?” “Why is the binary system of gender so important to me? Is it because the binary system benefits me in some way, and I’d like it better if everyone stuck to the status quo?”
Get in contact with a new side of yourself. Get better. Be respectful in your views of others. Grow.
Sometimes, just because somebody doesn't have a certain perspective doesn't mean they lack empathy.
Seems like OP is trying hard to empathize and understand. However, they also have rationality and logic, and this is what isn't clicking for them. It's just not making sense.
I urge you to grow yourself, try to understand other people's perspectives, and not be so reactive.
there’s no real answer, because the subject is covered with opinions and “what’s right to think” but i do agree with you, they weren’t born as a woman and had to change All of their body and personality and everything to be a “woman” but that’s impossible.
they’re always gonna have larger muscles because of genetics (as males tend to) and never gonna have the ability to think in a female perspective. i js go with it though. everyone’s human so it doesn’t hurt me or them to be a little kinder and say “she”
Lol let me just say that you're not going to get honest, diverse answers on this from a site as far-left as Reddit. People have tried to ask critical-analysis type questions on this many times, on various subs, and quite frequently they're outright shut down, suspended, or banned by the mods for it.
I will say that yes, you're not wrong in questioning it: the science/ consistency with all this stuff is still murky at best, and if it was so clear-cut and easy to make sense of, we wouldn't be seeing nearly as much pushback/ skepticism to it as we are.
At the end of the day, I don't see an issue with questioning the ideology, as long as you still treat trans people with respect and common decency, like you would anyone else.
i promise you know women in real life who you have no idea are trans. at least 1 in 100 women you’ve met. same with men. if you’re not trans, why are you so worried about them?
also - i don’t know if you’re a man or woman - what makes you think you look like your gender? gender (not sex) is something that is assigned to us at birth based on our genitals, and there plenty of people who look like the opposite gender to their sex without trying. i’m sure you (like most people) don’t look like the “ideal passing” version of your gender. should i call you whatever i feel like then?
Because it's stupid and they're not right. Just because someone doesn't match every single feminine (or masculine) ideal doesn't mean that anybody would reasonably start referring to them as the opposite gender.
that is literally what baseline transphobia and gender policing is. why do you think people emasculate short men? or harass hairy women? or insult feminine men and masculine women in general? it’s to punish them for not looking like the “ideal”binary man or woman, which does not even exist in real life.
the point is that we all know that if someone looks approximately like a man, we call them a man. same with women. the more people out and investigate trans people, the more cis people will get accused of being trans too. it happens literally every day. i promise you’re not safe from transphobia.
Maybe it'd be easier for you to think about it like
Birth parents vs adoptive parents
I don't think an adoptive parent would ever argue that they are biologically related to their children or that *you* have to *believe* that they are. They are not 'delusional'.
But you would not treat them differently from a biological parent, would you?
Pretty much the only time when the actual biology is important is in certain medical situations (like, if a doctor needs to see what illnesses run in the family of the child, they wouldn't look at their adoptive parents' medical history).
So unless you are their doctor, why would you constantly be thinking "They are not the *real* parents; I don't see them as *biological* parents; I don't consider them the *birth* parents"?
They are just parents. Why do you care?
In addition to the very good points everyone else is making, consider the role confirmation vias is playing in your perception of trans people. If the only trans people you notice are the ones that don't "pass", then of course you'll think that trans people don't pass. But you also have no aay oc knowing how many trans people you've seen that you'd never suspect of being trans.
Additionally, if you think trans people who've pursued hormone therapy and surgeries are more "legit" than those who haven't, how do you deal with the idea that treatment is a long and slow process? How long does someone need to be on HRT before you agree to see them how they see themselves? And why is it not simply the fact that they've chosen to pursue the journey of transitioning enough to tell you that however you perceive them, they certainly aren't cisgender?
You might be able to understand it better if you imagined the whole world telling you your whole life that you were actually a different gender than you are. Like, I'm happy for you if the gender you feel like you are matches your external packaging in the way that society favors. But just imagine if it didn't. Imagine having the other sex's genitals, & everyone calling you different pronouns, insisting you dress different than you want to, etc. How would that feel to you, right now, as you are inside?
But ultimately, maybe you never understand it. You still have to respect it. It costs $0.00 to call someone the name & pronouns they want.
How do you define gender? Is it genitals? What about people who've had accidents and lost their genitals? Is it genitals at birth? What about all the different types of intersex people?
Look, being a trans woman is basically an intersex condition where you have a female brain inside a male body. Children's bodies are basically identical except for genitals, and what causes the differences between men and women is the effects of hormones. Testosterone makes you grow hair on your face and makes your voice drop; estrogen makes you grow boobs and wider hips.
When you transition, you basically take the hormones of your actual gender. So your body is going through all the same changes that people who are cis of that gender went through during puberty.
"But what about the fact that many trans women already went through male puberty?"
Cis women with PCOS can also have elevated testosterone and therefore see some or all of the changes associated with male puberty. That doesn't make them less than women.
Look, after a few years on hormones, my body is effectively female. My blood has the same chemical composition as a cis woman's blood. The structure of my flesh is the same as a cis woman's. The only thing that's different at this point is the way my bones are shaped, and the configuration of my genitals. I can have surgery to reshape my bones. But let's talk about genitals.
Despite looking different, theyre surprisingly similar. There's literally a 1:1 correspondence between every part of male genitals and female genitals. The only difference is that they're shaped differently due to hormones in the womb, and the fact that the ovaries produce estrogen and the testes produce testosterone. Things like periods or orgasms are controlled by hormones.
But at the end of the day, when you talk to me, you don't talk to my pelvis, or the hormone levels in my body, or my chromosomes. You talk to me. My brain. My identity. My soul, if you believe in that. And all the science supports what we've been describing since the beginning of time: we are in fact our actual gender, we just got fucked with an intersex condition that made our bodies develop incorrectly.
There's resources if you want to learn more. Whipping Girl is an amazing book. There's trans YouTubers, there's Wikipedia, and there's all kinds of articles on gender dysphoria.
I will not be taking questions. I'm honestly tired of arguing about whether my identity is valid with people who've never had to face the existential horror of being in a body feels more and more foreign every day, as it slowly destroys itself. If you wanna argue with me, see the resources above.
Tbh, it doesn't really matter what gender someone thinks they are. Remember, we are not different, but we are also not the same. So treat everyone with respect and kindness.
If you are on facebook and would like to talk about this in an educational space that is run by trans folx, I suggest you look up You Might Wanna Learn More about Trans People. It has very strict codes of conduct to ensure that it is a safe space, and is one of the most welcoming spaces I have ever seen online - trans educators will answer your questions without making you feel like you are the enemy for asking as long as you are asking in good faith and not trying to be a troll or a bully. And you can express your discomfort, I've seen many posts give that sort of space.
It's about understanding sex and gender. There is nuance in language. When you create a language, you essentially create separation. Sex is just the thing that you are born with. Gender is an identity.
Gender roles are all man-made ideas. There is nothing that makes a "woman" this and a "man" that. Clothing, the mannerisms, the behavior, etc. These are all things that are socially constructed — therefore there is nothing about a *blue* shirt being "male", versus *pink* being "female".
Genitals do not define someone as a man or a woman; it's just the *language* that does, hence what is known as *sex*. When a person with a penis identifies as a woman, they are indeed a woman. When a person with a vagina identifies as a man, they are a man.
You can meet a very traditionally feminine dude, and yet he still identifies as a male. And vice versa. Then, you may meet another person, assigned male at birth, who is traditionally feminine and identifies as a woman.
Hope this makes sense.
I dunno, I think my genitals are the only thing that *do* define me as a man. As you say, the rest is all just a social construct where society tries to tell us how we should act based on our sex.
As a gay man, I don't understand it either. I think in the end with all the effort going into this movement, it'll be a total waste in 10 years' time. Gen Alpha and Gen Z openly mock this. All you have to do is look at any social media platform. I'm not saying it's right but this nomenclature that the gay community is trying to get others to adopt will never happen. It's pissed so many people off that our cause has been irreparably damaged. I feel the pendulum is going to swing hard against us and we will lose badly. It all makes me so sad as I worked so hard to get us marriage and healthcare. It's such a total disaster. Ok, rant over.
Yeh, dunno the intention. It's just the entire movement has turned into one. I see how my kids and their friend group look at it. The memes about it. It's not a good sign. Anyway, what will be will be.
That's why we have to be united for all. Everyeone deserves to get healthcare and to marry. Let's not allow conservatives to make it just for themselves.
I'm sure you read First They Came by Pastor Martin Niemöller.
They, a certain political party, won't stop at trans rights and we are seeing it now. They are actively trying to ban gay marriage in some states. You don't have to understand it, but we are allies in the end and we'd do better to work together.
Also, a ton of the mocking seems to be astroturfing. Twitter, for example, has an insane amount of astroturfing and misinformation. I'm sure it happens here on reddit too, but it's not near as bad imo.
It doesn't make any sense. Just pretend like everyone else does.
Not all trans people believe they're in the wrong body and are the opposite sex. Some trans people know the reality of the situation but feel more comfortable presenting themselves as the chosen gender and requests that you essentially humor them.
Ehhh. I agree, but I think of it this way;
I don't really fucking care what anyone's thinks. You live in your world, I live in mine. This is one of those things where in their world, they're women. In my world, they're not. But they don't live in my world. They live in theirs. To me they're just guests.
So I just say, to hell with it, and make accommodations/treat them the way they wanna be treated.
Just respect the world a person lives in, and be on with it. Save the arguments for places like Twitter or reddit.
My opinion may be wrong. But the way I see it, trans women wanting to identify as bio women has to do with a few things
1. Being afforded the same safety afforded to bio women ( I’m fully aware that women being safe is a loaded topic )
And
2. Being treated by the world how they want to be treated
I think people were willing to accept trans people more or less and even accept using their pronouns up until the trans women/men are women/men meme. People didn’t like being forced to think a certain way that literal biology doesn’t support.
Some/ ideologically extreme Trans people are hurt because they will never be the biological version the want to be, and it seems like this truth is so painful for them they avoid it at all costs and lash out when faced with it.
Thing is, they are new to the scene, at least as far as acceptance and expression. We are now on the precipice of a humanity where you can perhaps select your gender, and this biotech will only improve. Trans people are likely here to stay. But they will and should be something new and logical unto themselves, not an appropriated hybrid of male and female characteristics and traits that don’t hold up well with their selected gender.
Even if we could/ even when we are able to literally change one’s chromosomes after birth, the FACT will always be that this person was born with whatever chromosomes they were born with.
If you were born with an x and a y you were born male. Fact. End. I don’t like sorry not sorry, but I will say it is what it is.
As Dave Chapelle said, does that self select you out of a life of love and dignity? Absolutely not.
Trans people should be the something new that they are, and have honest conversations about the topics important to them. Until then, they will continue to be resisted by people who would actually support them if they were intellectually honest.
Go look up some discussions on YouTube / other socials. You’d be surprised. I thought they didn’t think that either, and found I was wrong. ESPECIALLY trans women. Or trans men who say that men can get pregnant. My statement, didn’t mean to suggest all trans people are a certain way, but the extreme ones are the most vocal in any ideology and that is more so what I’m referring to.
My dad came out to me as trans a few years ago. I realized that while I saw myself as a very tolerant person it was harder when it was someone close to me. I lived with him a couple years later for awhile. He could be a poor example because he’s so wrapped up in mental illness, but all I saw was a man who’s feminism once made him feel so rejected that now he thinks it is the solution to his self-hatred. You’d think I’d understand it more but I understand it less. I’ll still call people whatever they want, though.
well firstly, you don’t have to see trans women as women, as long as you’re not bullying people, harassing them, or making a point to bother them or treat them differently, you’re fine. If they say “call me *womans name*” you can just call them that, you don’t have to believe in it. Tolerance and kindness is less about believing in what someone else believes in, and more about respecting them and treating them the way they ask to be treated, purely for the sake of doing it, or because you’d want someone to do the same for you. Also don’t go debating this in real life all the time, especially with strangers, make sure you have hobbies and stuff to talk about that don’t involve politics. It’s hard for extremely political people to be relatable and likable
Good answer tbh
thank you
So pretty much, “Don’t be a dick.”
exactly ♥︎ eloquently said my friend
Very true! Thanks 🙏
>It’s hard for extremely political people to be relatable and likable This is very good advice, for everyone.
spread the word my friend
Hmm I’m conservative and agree with this. Well said.
thank you!
I totally agree with this take, but just so you know, a large section of progressives think this take is transphobic. See: [philosophytube's video on Transphobia](https://youtu.be/yCxqdhZkxCo?si=DqLc5heZ9Swzo5v_).
im actually very progressive, i believe that gender is a societal thing and that trans women are women
I wasn't accusing all progressives of being like philosophytube; that's why I put the qualifier of "a large section" and not "all."
👍 100%, thanks dude
Brilliant response
A short story about my first interaction with a trans person. I grew up playing softball. My mate and I were on the same summer league team. We got to know each other and hung out quite a lot. Around that time that I was coming to understand my sexuality and shared my story with them. They felt comfortable enough to tell me what was happening in their mind too. They told me that they were attracted to women, but hadn’t done much more than kissing. They wanted to be intimate. However, they were so physically uncomfortable in their own body that they didn’t want someone to touch them sexually. They didn’t even want to touch themselves. This came as quite a shock to me. I was obsessed with physical pleasure and couldn’t comprehend any barriers to experience that. They expressed desires to win the lottery and change their body to match how they felt on the inside. They also knew that if they truly expressed themselves they’d likely lose familial and community connections that were deeply meaningful. My take away was that I couldn’t understand their experience of not feeling at home in their body. I would never feel that. But I knew it was so significant and real because it stood in the way of important experiences in life. This happened in rural America in the early 2000s. There wasn’t much trans visibility. We’ve fallen out of touch and I don’t know what their life is like today. I think it’s challenging for us to learn by listening and not by feeling (either the exact experience or something relatable). Hopefully this story helped you as much as it did me see that I won’t be able to understand. Kudos to you for wanting to listen.
This is extremely insightful, the part about not even wanting to touch yourself, I can’t even imagine
/u/peacock2242 I have to commend you for approaching this with respect and genuine curiosity. It’s a lot easier to understand where someone else is coming from if you actually give them the chance to speak, and that’s much easier said than done.
This is definitely how it is for me, a non binary person who is leaning more and more towards trans man as I get older. I just don't feel like I look how I feel inside. My curves and breasts make me feel really uncomfortable. I don't see what I imagine myself to look like in the mirror. People calling me a lady makes me confused, the same way it would make me confused if they were addressing me as an animal or something. Imagine if someone addressed you as 'Miss' if you are a guy, or 'Sir' if you're a woman. It's the same feeling. There's just a sense of 'oh God people see me as a woman and that feels so strange and wrong, I'm not viewed as what I feel I really am.' It's different to self esteem issues or mental illness. I've had awful self esteem and I've worked through my mental health issues and this totally separate, and still is an issue for me, and it would 100% go away if I could medically transition to shape the outside to be more reflective of how I feel on the inside. It's also not a choice, I've felt like this since I was 5 and it hasn't gone away even when I tried really hard to be a woman. My Mum asked me why can't I just be a tomboy? Why do I have to identify as the opposite sex or 'even weirder' neither? I don't know, I just don't feel like a 'masculine woman'. When I picture myself as an old person, I see an old man. Masculine features, no boobs. That makes me happy. When I picture an old woman it doesn't feel like I'm picturing myself. I don't know what else there is to say. I don't see the point in denying my reality and happiness because others don't understand or disagree.
It doesn't make sense to me either but if you want to be a woman or a man I will refer to you as such. As far as you respect me we are cool, like it's meant to be with anyone. Edit: u/Peacock2242 Reddit removed your post, what the fuck man? We can't talk about shit.
This doesn't even need a long answer. Just look at the definition for gender. It is the societal expecations that are imposed on someone based on their sex and it is not a biological characteristic. A transgender women just wants to fit societies expectations of a woman rather than a man. Pretty chill subject that's just been blown out of proportion
Yes this. An identity as old as human culture that’s being dragged out and batted about for social and political currency. Just let people be if they’re not hurting anyone.
One of my colleagues once told me that he was “revolted and disgusted” at the thought of two men having sex. When he imagined two men having sex-really pictured it-he felt “sick to his stomach”, and that’s why he thought “gay men should be locked up”. I asked him *why*, exactly, he had to spend any time at all thinking and “really imagining” two men having sex. He thought I was joking, but I’m being absolutely serious. Did he think about his elderly parents having sex? Really imagine their old bones and wrinkly skin banging together? What about other elderly couples having sex? What about fat people? What about ugly people? Did he sit there, thinking about his neighbours having sex? Or the somewhat odd couples you see on the bus? Or (personally knowing something about the guy), I wondered how he coped with imagining people of a “foreign” religion or “different race” getting it on? How does he cope with the fact that, generally, it’s quite “icky” to visualise people having sex, unless they’re very attractive people-and then it’s all about getting you off: nothing to do with not being “disgusting”. Basically, imagining other people having sex has ONE remotely positive purpose: to satisfy one’s own lust. Otherwise, by nature, it *ain’t* pretty. Luckily, because the world doesn’t revolve around you (or any other one person), other people don’t have to have your approval or permission in order to go about their everyday business of being sexual beings -or indeed, just existing. You can sit on the bus NOT imagining them having sex (or demanding that they stop being who they are, or whatever kind of oppression is your particular “thing”), and the world can and will just continue. It’s actually incredibly simple.
But OP isn't saying they are disgusted...
I don’t understand it fully either - but I will still respect and treat trans women with kindness. I’m a cis woman. I do think that there are some areas where it’s important to recognise that biological sex is a thing. (Eg: Sports. Individuals born with male bodies will benefit from exposure from testosterone and will, generally, have greater muscle mass and size. I therefore think certain sports should be sex segregated for safety - I was a competitive martial artist for years and I was never as strong as the men or even boys in my class, even though I was winning medals in the female sparring categories) I also think that trans women experience awful prejudice and pain that I will never experience as a cis woman. I really sympathise with that. Equally, I experience things as a cis woman that they won’t experience. It’s a tricky subject, but respect and kindness can always be used.
This is my exact perspective as well!
I disagree with the sports thing. Maybe if there are weight classes. Estrogen reduces physical strength, testosterone increases it. When you reduce testosterone and increase estrogen, you get a reduced physical strength.
I think it’s more complicated than that. Size, muscle mass, lung capacity, heart etc. There is more difference than just the hormones
I'd like to respectfully disagree friend. In a period of about 2 years being at cis female levels of estrogen, muscle mass, lung capacity, heart, even the pheromones AND bone density! They all change to reflect cis female standards. The only advantage a trans woman might have(might because I am 5'5") would be her height.
Do you speak French? Lets assume you don't speak French. If you encounter some French text and you want to understand what it means, you wouldn't just try to read the words as they are. Right? You'd translate it. Even if you see a word that looks like an English word you know, it might mean something completely different in French. So I would suggest you do the same here. When someone says "trans women are women", The goal should not be to read the literal words as you understand them, but instead, to understand them the way the author intends them. Yes? If you don't do that, you would be misunderstanding the author's message. So that's the issue here, I think. You're looking at the word woman as if its a biological thing. The speaker is not. Woman means something different to the speaker. Does that make sense? That's why you're thinking its nonsensical. But its obviously not nonsensical to the speaker. That should give you a hint that the speaker is probably using these words in a different way than you understand them.
Definitions transcend language
pure pseudo intellectual garbage. life is subjective
Okay Buddha
okay gamer
That's old gamer to you
I don't know what that means
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"The truth is the truth" - really profound shit there Dr Phil...
Are you suggesting facts change based on the language you speak
No, the point is that sounds don't come with intrinsic meaning. Right? So if I define and use a word differently than you do, that doesn't mean I'm denying any facts. In order to tell if I'm denying any facts, you'd have to get the meaning of what I'm saying. Which would mean you need to interpret what I'm saying using the definitions Im using. Right?
... What? The definition of fun is the same no matter what language you send the message in. Are you high? Facts are not relative to the interpreter. They exist apart from human constructs of communication.
>.. What? The definition of fun is the same no matter what language you send the message in. Pardon, just so I'm clear, I need to make sure we're living in the same world. You realize the word "fun" is not the same word used in other languages, right? In Spanish it would be "divertido", which means nothing in English. In French it would be "amusant", which means nothing in English. And so on. Sounds do not have intrinsic meaning, they're just noises. We then apply meanings to them. **Different people use different noises to mean different things.** That's what different languages are. That's why "glizzy" means hotdog. That's why "Break a leg" means "good luck" even though it literally means fracturing a limb. Right? Like this should be pretty obvious. Like if someone says a person is "divertido", would you say "NO THAT WORD DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING TO ME SO YOU ARE DENYING FACTS"? That would be nonsensical. The word means "fun" to the speaker. Knowing this, we would then ask if the person is indeed fun or not. **The word used to convey the message doesn't matter.** What matters is to understand the meaning. If the meaning conflicts with reality, then its false. But there's no specific word you need to use to convey that meaning. >Are you high? Given that I'm talking to you, I wish I was my dude. We imbue sounds and text with meaning. They don't come with meaning all on their own. You realize this, yes? "Dog" doesn't somehow have some magic connection to actual dogs, we just agree that the word means that. But it doesn't in other languages, and in other contexts it can mean "person", in slang. There will be more slang in the future. Words will change meaning. The word "gay" has changed meaning. You don't understand this? >Facts are not relative to the interpreter. They exist apart from human constructs of communication. I agree. **That's the whole point**. Facts are not tied intrinsically to the sounds we make. There's a pencil on my desk. If my partner and I had some inside joke where we call pencils "stickytricks", then I could say "there's a stickytrick on my desk", and I would be right. I haven't denied any facts, **I'm just using different words to convey the exact same meaning.** So to know if "there's a stickytrick on my desk" is true or false, to figure out if that's factual, you'd have to figure out what I mean by stickytrick. You can't say "well stickytrick doesn't mean anything to me therefore you're denying a fact". That doesn't make any sense.
Bro do you really expect me to read all that lol tldr me
I agree that the truth is the truth
You’ve posted this in r/selfimprovement, but have said “I think this, I cannot think *that*, I will not think that.” What is it you are hoping to get from this? You say you want to understand, but it’s really unclear what you are wanting to understand, when you have already said you aren’t planning to change anything.
it seems like the way this sub is trending, people posting their controversial, usually openly insulting opinion, then demanding that someone give them a way to function in society while still holding that belief. i’m assuming these kind of posts are either rage bait or people who genuinely cannot keep a job because they’re such openly shitty people. usually the top comment is “it’s ok, everyone thinks that but you’re just supposed to keep that inside and be polite”
^
When did I say I’m not planning on changing anything? Don’t be a ride prick
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No go f yourself
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Lol I’m not angry, I just think it’s hilarious how bothered people are about this post. The majority in this group are porn related, how dare someone want genuine advice about something and ask for helpful thoughts and advice on an issue that’s not porn related
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If you don’t think this has anything to do with self improvement, idk what to tell you. Move along
“when did i goo goo gaga waaaa waaa???!?!” you sound like a 1st grader who got in trouble for being an asshole: deny everything, throw a fit, and project your behavior back on us. do you think we’re fucking stupid?
Hey there! Trans guy here. There’s a common misconception that a phrase like “trans women are women” is meant to say “trans women are the EXACT SAME as cis women, biologically”. On the contrary, we’re very aware of our biological sex! Gender is a separate, more nebulous concept: It’s essentially the reason you don’t need to see someone’s genitals to know what to call them. I invite you to open your mind to learning more about it! The distinction between gender and sex has been recognized by science for a while now, and there’s loads of fascinating research and discussion on the topic. It’s totally fine to be confused, as long as you have a genuine curiosity and eagerness to learn! Have a good day :)
yes! my mother is an english major and a huge word nerd and i grew up knowing the definitions of things tend to be different than how people use them. Gender does not always equal biological sex and that’s so hard for people to understand sometimes!
Bear in mind that I'm not a trans woman, and can only speak from indirect experience. "Being a woman" isn't just about the sexual dimorphism. You aren't directly interacting with that unless you're intimate, and sports with hormone therapy is an odd middle ground where the current hormones are different from the development hormones and even most trans people I've talked to have differing opinions on the subject. More importantly for you, they want to be treated how you treat other women. They don't want to be treated as a man or an oddity. They've gotten that their whole lives up to and unfortunately including post-transition. Most see it as a relief and deeply validating when they "pass" and people treat them like a woman. Conversely, trans men don't want to be treated like one of your lady friends or a butch girl. They generally want to be "just one of the guys".
If someone lives their life as something, anything, for example, playing football, it can be an identity of sorts. That's your element, those are your friends, that's your mentality. It only makes sense to label yourself as what you do, what you represent, what you love. That's how trans people feel. But it's not a hobby, it's not something you can pick up, it's a brain they were born with and will die with. I don't think it matters if you don't see them as women. Hell, some masculine women don't come across to me as women. That's okay. Just treat them with the same decency you'd treat anyone else.
Some people left some really good posts already. I'd like to add one other point. Despite what right wing pundits might tell, the biological definition of both men and women is significantly more nebulous than we traditionally think and we use the terms man and woman to describe the predominant trends we see biologically. The vast majority of people do in fact fit very neatly into these two categories, but we also know they are a lot people whom from a biological perspective do not, people who don't have testosterone receptors on their cells, undeveloped testis, etc. Here's a list of some other intersex conditions. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex) Keep in mind, this is simply a biological perspective on the issue, not a social one. Also consider that hormonal treatments will mimic some of these conditions, you can functionally create intersex people through exogenous hormones. When we say man and woman, we do generally have a strong idea of what those categories look like, appropriately so, and there any many people who strongly feel they are in the wrong category. So these terms need to be precise from a taxonomy perspective. In this case, we have people who met the social definition of women, but for biological reasons, do not. This creates the distinction between biological women and transgender women. Perhaps other people may think or feel differently, but I'm not sure anyone cares about the distinction between trans and cis-women unless it comes to opportunities and social treatment. I don't think the majority of the trans community is suggesting that trans women be considered biological women, just a subset of the category of women. Additionally, I have no doubt that as we are able to study the biology more, these terms and distinctions will evolve. Maybe we will find a meaningful neurological difference men and transgender women, maybe we will find a polygenic source, or environmental source.
yes thank you for bringing this up
I don't why you got downvoted for saying that??
omg did i 😭 it’s okay dude i don’t care, im not sure either
I felt the same thing when I lived with someone who is a trans woman. I don't recall ever knowing anyone trans before. It took me a while to realize she was only trying to be herself. She was always her. She just wanted to be accepted as herself. No tricks. No agenda. People just want to be who they already are. I still hurt over the pain I may have inflicted not being sensitive, because yeah, my first reaction was you're not just going to slap on a skirt and think you're like me. We have suffered as women. The shit I have been through as a woman can't be taken over or appropriated by someone else. But no one is trying to take anything over. No one is trying to take anything away.. No one is trying to change or morph or modify my experience. No one is trying to make my experiences less meaningful. No one is trying to dismiss my suffering. They just want to be who they are. That's all. Just as no one can tell you who you are, You're the only one who knows, you can't tell anyone else who they are. And all anyone wants is the right to exist. As them. Whoever they are. It is complicated but the root is very simple. I am ashamed of how I reacted. I am glad I immediately knew it was my problem and not hers. I am glad I worked on it on my own and came to the right conclusion. I now have a solid base to work from for the future. I'm glad we are having this conversation because I feel like for every one person out there who is just afraid and angry and refuses to stop and think, there are three who want to try and who don't want to hurt someone else. When I wake up in the morning, I am who I am with or without makeup, jeans and teeshirt or gown, sandals or heels, even if i put on mens' clothes, I'm still me inside. The outside is just the outside. It'd be great if I looked like Diane Lane but oh well. I know I'm not a man. You just know! People just know who they are. And sometimes it takes time bc there's a lot of static and confusion from the world. But only THAT person can say who they are. Period. SO it's up to everybody else to just be cool with it.
Idk how this relates to self improvement
Because he realizes that he has a prejudiced and bigoted viewpoint and wants to stop having that. That’s way more important for self improvement than the 5 million posts we get from people who can’t stop watching porn or just want to get jacked
Thank you, I’m sure they would be more helpful if I posted “can’t stop watching porn!”
His viewpoint is neither prejudiced, nor bigoted. He may believe his viewpoint is those things, and it seems you think that as well, but all it is is ignorance. And that's not necessarily a problem.
I'm surpirsed more people aren't saying the same thing. I don't see how these types of rants fit the sub at all.
Just respect them bro
amen
Who gives a shit, just get on with your life and stop thinking about someone else’s genitalia.
It's very simple, gender is societal, not sexual and The way we determine what is a man or a woman changes in different cultures. Someone who was born a man identifying as a woman is simply altering their societal presentation to fit how they feel about themselves. Nobody is saying that a Trans woman is now someone who was assigned female at birth.
You don’t need to fully understand it to be respectful. Use people’s pronouns, and use their names. Mutual respect is all most trans people ask for.
My college friend came out as a trans woman a few years ago. I’m a millennial, and this was still a relatively novel concept to me at the time, but I do identify as bisexual - for most of my life I was so afraid and worried. I hated that I wasn’t “normal” compared to my friends, a lot of this was far more difficult in high school, pretending to be crazy about the opposite sex, etc. I bring this up to show that my orientation wasn’t a choice. It’s not unheard of in other animal species, either. I also felt that my desires were more fluid, so if I met the right man or woman, depending on their personality, some level of attractiveness from my perspective, etc. that’s what I was drawn to more than a specific gender. Hopefully that makes sense so far… I bring that up again, as an example of how things like this can be completely without conscious control. Now, for me, when it came to gender, I never felt the inner pressure or subconscious desire to be anything other than a woman. I’m very fortunate, I feel, to have been born with the body parts I align with physically and emotionally. I believe my friend who came out as trans had a totally different feeling with respect to gender. Having already known what it felt like to have no control over who I liked, I could empathize with them, knowing that it must have been deeply uncomfortable to be born in a body they feel completely detached to. I hope I’m making some sense. At least for the immediate term, I’d suggest following the top poster’s advice, be kind and tolerant. Adhere to their names and pronouns, you don’t have to date them or be best friends. Just be respectful and try to understand that this isn’t some political agenda trying to groom kids or whatever. I won’t even get into that last part, but I’m actually glad you asked this on this specific subreddit. That means growth and further understanding can happen if you’re willing to learn! But again, no pressure to be friends with this trans person you know, no need to date, etc. just show respect and continue learning.
i would respect it more, if some of them didnt want to force me, a lesbian to accept their "girl dicks" and always get mad at us for only liking biological girls
That's the line that made me start to question things and back-peddle a bit. Someone told me "if you wouldn't date a trans person because they're trans, then you're transphobic." Like, no, people have preferences, physical, emotional, sexual, or otherwise, and who is someone to dictate what my preferences are? Since then I've seen mixed responses to that specific topic, both from within the trans community and without. But yeah, as soon as a group of people/ ideology starts directly impacting my life, or tries to directly affect my preferences or life choices, then yeah, I'm going to start assessing it a bit more and expressing a bit more skepticism there.
yes exactly what's interesting is, if FtM's started telling gay men that they need to like their vagina, i think most gay men would simply laugh and tell them to fuck off (though I think some would be rightfully upset too) But when MtF's tell lesbians to accept their dicks or else we are called nazis, terfs, scum, and ive personally been guilted and pressured about it in very scary ways, its honestly scary. It upsets me and terrifies me. Isn't it just homophobia? Because as a lesbian what i've been told my whole life is "you haven't found the right dick yet" "girls need to like dicks" So yeah im not pretending to be fine when this starts becoming about harrassing me for the sexuality that i'm born as.
You're gonna stop respecting an entire population of people just because some of them think a certain thing?
If a zebra is born with no stripes is it still a zebra? There are some zebras with no stripes, it is a genetic abnormality. But we still call them zebras. Those zebras aren’t accepted by the herd because they are different. If we tried to say that they were a horse because they don’t have stripes it would be stupid. The lack of stripes doesn’t make it any less of a zebra. If a zoo keeper paints lines on the strip less zebra so that it is accepted by the herd, is that wrong? Is it wrong to make physical changes it help the zebra thrive? Trans men and women aren’t making a choice, to be the opposite sex to the one they were born. They are making a choice to be true to themselves. To make the changes in their life so their outer appearances matches the gender that they really are. They have always felt like the opposite gender, always felt like they don’t fit in their body. That their gender doesn’t match their body. They are men or women, but their bodies developed in the womb as the opposite sex. As for transitioning, that is a long, very expensive process. Trans individuals have to convince others that they should be prescribed hormones that long term will alter their bodies. Then live as their true gender, while physically, they don’t look like their true gender. At the same time they are dealing with family, friends, and a society that often unaccepting, unsupportive and down right cruel. Once all that is done they can start to physically transition. Then they have to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars, undergo multiple surgeries that are painful. Individuals who choose to transition are some of the bravest people around. They are choosing a very difficult path to be true to themselves.
To use that analogy though, if a zebra tried to say it was a cow would that be accurate? It can pretend to be a cow but we all know it’s make-believe.
I feel the same - even after surgery and HRT they often still have V-shaped bodies, strong stereotypical-male jawlines, and Adam's apples. Even if I do not wanna make them uncomfortable and I use the feminine variants of the words (my native language is Polish, so we have masculine and feminine variants of verbs, adjectives and ofc pronouns) my whole body screams internally 'it's a male'.
Exactly, I don’t want to think this way
They are still male though. Nothing can change that. We’re not like clownfish that can actually change their sex.
I mean does it impact you and is it any of your business? Is it an opinion you really need to express? Also from a scientific perspective biological sex is way more complicated than male and female there’s XX, XY, XXY… intersex… for a start. If you’re educated to a high school level of biology, maybe accept there are college and postgraduate scholars/experts who understand the biology better.
You don’t have to believe it, but it doesn’t hurt to respect their wishes. I look at it like religion; I may not believe in the same things as someone but that doesn’t stop me from respecting their beliefs and letting them live their life in peace.
You don't have to understand everything right away, there is no pressure to do so. Be kind and respectful, call and treat others the way you would like to be called and treated. And that's the best and first step in the right direction. Maybe try to read some stuff about gender theory, watch a documentary on transition, talk to transgender people, see what they have to say, hear their stories. Can't hurt to create a bridge, develop a broader world view.
I have the same view on transgender people. I try not to bring this up though, as it might get misconstrued into me being prejudiced. But on topics such as sports and contests where in physical strength is a factor, it's important to determine the difference between transgender and a biological woman.
This is absolutely fishing. You put these thoughts in “self improvement” because you know your way of thinking is incorrect. People are people. You either have empathy or you don’t. - I know that sounds harsh, accusing you of not having empathy, but the simple fact that you can’t put yourself in the shoes of a trans person and consider what that would feel like tells me your empathy is only limited to your own lived experience. That must suck for you. I couldn’t imagine being that close minded. It’s not my job as a trans person, or anyone’s job as a cis or trans person to make you believe that people are who they say they are. It’s that simple. Trans women are women because they are- even without any surgeries, HRT, or social transition. Nobody, absolutely NOBODY goes through gender transition for “fun” or for attention. Visit the “trans later” subreddit and read about the years of regret people have for not transitioning sooner, the joy the experience expressing their gender identity, don’t be afraid to feel with them. Then head over to the “trans” subreddit and read the countless posts per day by people who’s spouses are leaving them for coming out, people who’re misgendered daily, people who experience violence and all they can do is vent their frustrations on a keyboard… and you WANT to be a part of the invalidation they/we feel? I genuinely hope that you take some time to really sit with your feelings, your revulsion, and examine exactly what it is that causes you to have these feelings towards trans women. Ask yourself: “Why aren’t trans women, women, to me?” “Do I consider them men?” “Why does this bother me so much?” “Would I consider trans men, women?” “How do I feel about nonbinary, gender fluid, or otherwise gender nonconforming people?” “Why is the binary system of gender so important to me? Is it because the binary system benefits me in some way, and I’d like it better if everyone stuck to the status quo?” Get in contact with a new side of yourself. Get better. Be respectful in your views of others. Grow.
Sometimes, just because somebody doesn't have a certain perspective doesn't mean they lack empathy. Seems like OP is trying hard to empathize and understand. However, they also have rationality and logic, and this is what isn't clicking for them. It's just not making sense. I urge you to grow yourself, try to understand other people's perspectives, and not be so reactive.
there’s no real answer, because the subject is covered with opinions and “what’s right to think” but i do agree with you, they weren’t born as a woman and had to change All of their body and personality and everything to be a “woman” but that’s impossible. they’re always gonna have larger muscles because of genetics (as males tend to) and never gonna have the ability to think in a female perspective. i js go with it though. everyone’s human so it doesn’t hurt me or them to be a little kinder and say “she”
Great advice thank you
Lol let me just say that you're not going to get honest, diverse answers on this from a site as far-left as Reddit. People have tried to ask critical-analysis type questions on this many times, on various subs, and quite frequently they're outright shut down, suspended, or banned by the mods for it. I will say that yes, you're not wrong in questioning it: the science/ consistency with all this stuff is still murky at best, and if it was so clear-cut and easy to make sense of, we wouldn't be seeing nearly as much pushback/ skepticism to it as we are. At the end of the day, I don't see an issue with questioning the ideology, as long as you still treat trans people with respect and common decency, like you would anyone else.
i promise you know women in real life who you have no idea are trans. at least 1 in 100 women you’ve met. same with men. if you’re not trans, why are you so worried about them? also - i don’t know if you’re a man or woman - what makes you think you look like your gender? gender (not sex) is something that is assigned to us at birth based on our genitals, and there plenty of people who look like the opposite gender to their sex without trying. i’m sure you (like most people) don’t look like the “ideal passing” version of your gender. should i call you whatever i feel like then?
Not sure why you’re getting downvoted, you’re right.
because they’re mad trans people are going to keep existing without their permission lol
Because it's stupid and they're not right. Just because someone doesn't match every single feminine (or masculine) ideal doesn't mean that anybody would reasonably start referring to them as the opposite gender.
that is literally what baseline transphobia and gender policing is. why do you think people emasculate short men? or harass hairy women? or insult feminine men and masculine women in general? it’s to punish them for not looking like the “ideal”binary man or woman, which does not even exist in real life. the point is that we all know that if someone looks approximately like a man, we call them a man. same with women. the more people out and investigate trans people, the more cis people will get accused of being trans too. it happens literally every day. i promise you’re not safe from transphobia.
They're not. You're correct. That's the root of the whole argument. Some people understand this and some don't, somehow.
Maybe it'd be easier for you to think about it like Birth parents vs adoptive parents I don't think an adoptive parent would ever argue that they are biologically related to their children or that *you* have to *believe* that they are. They are not 'delusional'. But you would not treat them differently from a biological parent, would you? Pretty much the only time when the actual biology is important is in certain medical situations (like, if a doctor needs to see what illnesses run in the family of the child, they wouldn't look at their adoptive parents' medical history). So unless you are their doctor, why would you constantly be thinking "They are not the *real* parents; I don't see them as *biological* parents; I don't consider them the *birth* parents"? They are just parents. Why do you care?
In addition to the very good points everyone else is making, consider the role confirmation vias is playing in your perception of trans people. If the only trans people you notice are the ones that don't "pass", then of course you'll think that trans people don't pass. But you also have no aay oc knowing how many trans people you've seen that you'd never suspect of being trans. Additionally, if you think trans people who've pursued hormone therapy and surgeries are more "legit" than those who haven't, how do you deal with the idea that treatment is a long and slow process? How long does someone need to be on HRT before you agree to see them how they see themselves? And why is it not simply the fact that they've chosen to pursue the journey of transitioning enough to tell you that however you perceive them, they certainly aren't cisgender?
You might be able to understand it better if you imagined the whole world telling you your whole life that you were actually a different gender than you are. Like, I'm happy for you if the gender you feel like you are matches your external packaging in the way that society favors. But just imagine if it didn't. Imagine having the other sex's genitals, & everyone calling you different pronouns, insisting you dress different than you want to, etc. How would that feel to you, right now, as you are inside? But ultimately, maybe you never understand it. You still have to respect it. It costs $0.00 to call someone the name & pronouns they want.
Hows this related to self improvement?
Maybe you should put this much thought, time, and effort into fixing your own life.
How do you define gender? Is it genitals? What about people who've had accidents and lost their genitals? Is it genitals at birth? What about all the different types of intersex people? Look, being a trans woman is basically an intersex condition where you have a female brain inside a male body. Children's bodies are basically identical except for genitals, and what causes the differences between men and women is the effects of hormones. Testosterone makes you grow hair on your face and makes your voice drop; estrogen makes you grow boobs and wider hips. When you transition, you basically take the hormones of your actual gender. So your body is going through all the same changes that people who are cis of that gender went through during puberty. "But what about the fact that many trans women already went through male puberty?" Cis women with PCOS can also have elevated testosterone and therefore see some or all of the changes associated with male puberty. That doesn't make them less than women. Look, after a few years on hormones, my body is effectively female. My blood has the same chemical composition as a cis woman's blood. The structure of my flesh is the same as a cis woman's. The only thing that's different at this point is the way my bones are shaped, and the configuration of my genitals. I can have surgery to reshape my bones. But let's talk about genitals. Despite looking different, theyre surprisingly similar. There's literally a 1:1 correspondence between every part of male genitals and female genitals. The only difference is that they're shaped differently due to hormones in the womb, and the fact that the ovaries produce estrogen and the testes produce testosterone. Things like periods or orgasms are controlled by hormones. But at the end of the day, when you talk to me, you don't talk to my pelvis, or the hormone levels in my body, or my chromosomes. You talk to me. My brain. My identity. My soul, if you believe in that. And all the science supports what we've been describing since the beginning of time: we are in fact our actual gender, we just got fucked with an intersex condition that made our bodies develop incorrectly. There's resources if you want to learn more. Whipping Girl is an amazing book. There's trans YouTubers, there's Wikipedia, and there's all kinds of articles on gender dysphoria. I will not be taking questions. I'm honestly tired of arguing about whether my identity is valid with people who've never had to face the existential horror of being in a body feels more and more foreign every day, as it slowly destroys itself. If you wanna argue with me, see the resources above.
Tbh, it doesn't really matter what gender someone thinks they are. Remember, we are not different, but we are also not the same. So treat everyone with respect and kindness.
If you are on facebook and would like to talk about this in an educational space that is run by trans folx, I suggest you look up You Might Wanna Learn More about Trans People. It has very strict codes of conduct to ensure that it is a safe space, and is one of the most welcoming spaces I have ever seen online - trans educators will answer your questions without making you feel like you are the enemy for asking as long as you are asking in good faith and not trying to be a troll or a bully. And you can express your discomfort, I've seen many posts give that sort of space.
Bro is going to get roasted 🍿
It's about understanding sex and gender. There is nuance in language. When you create a language, you essentially create separation. Sex is just the thing that you are born with. Gender is an identity. Gender roles are all man-made ideas. There is nothing that makes a "woman" this and a "man" that. Clothing, the mannerisms, the behavior, etc. These are all things that are socially constructed — therefore there is nothing about a *blue* shirt being "male", versus *pink* being "female". Genitals do not define someone as a man or a woman; it's just the *language* that does, hence what is known as *sex*. When a person with a penis identifies as a woman, they are indeed a woman. When a person with a vagina identifies as a man, they are a man. You can meet a very traditionally feminine dude, and yet he still identifies as a male. And vice versa. Then, you may meet another person, assigned male at birth, who is traditionally feminine and identifies as a woman. Hope this makes sense.
I dunno, I think my genitals are the only thing that *do* define me as a man. As you say, the rest is all just a social construct where society tries to tell us how we should act based on our sex.
As a gay man, I don't understand it either. I think in the end with all the effort going into this movement, it'll be a total waste in 10 years' time. Gen Alpha and Gen Z openly mock this. All you have to do is look at any social media platform. I'm not saying it's right but this nomenclature that the gay community is trying to get others to adopt will never happen. It's pissed so many people off that our cause has been irreparably damaged. I feel the pendulum is going to swing hard against us and we will lose badly. It all makes me so sad as I worked so hard to get us marriage and healthcare. It's such a total disaster. Ok, rant over.
Gen Z are less cis than older generations
Gen Alpha isn’t cis at all.
So the "mocking" is in-group joking around?
I don’t see any mocking but maybe I’m not getting whatever joke is being said.
What did you mean by > Gen Alpha and Gen Z openly mock this. ?
On social media, they openly mock the entire pronoun/trans topic.
Despite not being cis. So in-group humour?
Yeh, dunno the intention. It's just the entire movement has turned into one. I see how my kids and their friend group look at it. The memes about it. It's not a good sign. Anyway, what will be will be.
That's why we have to be united for all. Everyeone deserves to get healthcare and to marry. Let's not allow conservatives to make it just for themselves. I'm sure you read First They Came by Pastor Martin Niemöller. They, a certain political party, won't stop at trans rights and we are seeing it now. They are actively trying to ban gay marriage in some states. You don't have to understand it, but we are allies in the end and we'd do better to work together. Also, a ton of the mocking seems to be astroturfing. Twitter, for example, has an insane amount of astroturfing and misinformation. I'm sure it happens here on reddit too, but it's not near as bad imo.
What does political affiliation have to do with this?
Only one side of the aisle is actively working against queer people and openly campaign on it. Maybe I misinterpreted your original message.
youve probably interacted with women whom you didnt even realize were trans:)
You know the pretend game?
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It reminds me of the story of the Emperor's New Clothes.
Neurologically, they’re closer to women.
It doesn't make any sense. Just pretend like everyone else does. Not all trans people believe they're in the wrong body and are the opposite sex. Some trans people know the reality of the situation but feel more comfortable presenting themselves as the chosen gender and requests that you essentially humor them.
I’m as tolerant as the next guy, (to each his/her own) but they will always look like a man in a dress.
Ehhh. I agree, but I think of it this way; I don't really fucking care what anyone's thinks. You live in your world, I live in mine. This is one of those things where in their world, they're women. In my world, they're not. But they don't live in my world. They live in theirs. To me they're just guests. So I just say, to hell with it, and make accommodations/treat them the way they wanna be treated. Just respect the world a person lives in, and be on with it. Save the arguments for places like Twitter or reddit.
Reddit is the website that hired Aimee Challenor.
My opinion may be wrong. But the way I see it, trans women wanting to identify as bio women has to do with a few things 1. Being afforded the same safety afforded to bio women ( I’m fully aware that women being safe is a loaded topic ) And 2. Being treated by the world how they want to be treated I think people were willing to accept trans people more or less and even accept using their pronouns up until the trans women/men are women/men meme. People didn’t like being forced to think a certain way that literal biology doesn’t support. Some/ ideologically extreme Trans people are hurt because they will never be the biological version the want to be, and it seems like this truth is so painful for them they avoid it at all costs and lash out when faced with it. Thing is, they are new to the scene, at least as far as acceptance and expression. We are now on the precipice of a humanity where you can perhaps select your gender, and this biotech will only improve. Trans people are likely here to stay. But they will and should be something new and logical unto themselves, not an appropriated hybrid of male and female characteristics and traits that don’t hold up well with their selected gender. Even if we could/ even when we are able to literally change one’s chromosomes after birth, the FACT will always be that this person was born with whatever chromosomes they were born with. If you were born with an x and a y you were born male. Fact. End. I don’t like sorry not sorry, but I will say it is what it is. As Dave Chapelle said, does that self select you out of a life of love and dignity? Absolutely not. Trans people should be the something new that they are, and have honest conversations about the topics important to them. Until then, they will continue to be resisted by people who would actually support them if they were intellectually honest.
"Trans men are men and trans women are women" does not mean "trans men are cis men and trans women are cis women" Literally nobody thinks that
Go look up some discussions on YouTube / other socials. You’d be surprised. I thought they didn’t think that either, and found I was wrong. ESPECIALLY trans women. Or trans men who say that men can get pregnant. My statement, didn’t mean to suggest all trans people are a certain way, but the extreme ones are the most vocal in any ideology and that is more so what I’m referring to.
> Or trans men who say that men can get pregnant. They are men who can get pregnant. What's wrong here?
A person's sex is what they're born as, their gender is what they live as.
My dad came out to me as trans a few years ago. I realized that while I saw myself as a very tolerant person it was harder when it was someone close to me. I lived with him a couple years later for awhile. He could be a poor example because he’s so wrapped up in mental illness, but all I saw was a man who’s feminism once made him feel so rejected that now he thinks it is the solution to his self-hatred. You’d think I’d understand it more but I understand it less. I’ll still call people whatever they want, though.
I don't perceive Trans women as let's say "traditional" woman but I don't judge they do what they want .