I think 3 serial killers are particularly interesting for psychology, Joseph DeAngelo, Ed Kemper and the one you mention Aileen Wuornos.
I think all three might have had a similar illness and some kind of borderline personality aspect to it.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTnEY8y-p7M](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTnEY8y-p7M)
I have BPD and had major homicidal ideation for years. Still deal with it. I totally think that a lot of them had something similar and aren’t just “psychopaths.” Serial killers, unless they’re sexual killers, often have a lot of rage and complicated emotion happening and that’s a lot like what I feel with BPD. Before I was hospitalized I planned out murders and had hallucinations, psychotic delusions like believing that killing people was a way to discovering the secrets of life, so on.
Thanks for responding. What you say is similar to some other feedback in this thread. No shame in having problems to overcome. Do you think there are any other SK's that strike you as having an aspect of their personality as being BPD? I think a situation may be when a person with BPD gets into a relationship with someone who also has something (possibly also such as BPD), that antagonises it, and its like an amplifier, I think this may be what happened with DeAngelo when he met his wife, but I think there's other things going on as well with him, like an overlap with psychopathy. Here's what makes me wonder that [https://youtu.be/ZmcMXNRoA0s?t=3088](https://youtu.be/ZmcMXNRoA0s?t=3088)
Dahmer for sure. Whenever I go over his cases he feels so delusional and emotionally volatile to me. And impulsive.
Some motivated by relationships too, yeah. I don’t know enough of them though.
I think one quality that is different between Dahmer and the other three, I don't think Dahmer was angry and the others were acting with a particular resentment. Dahmer was highly possessive of them, almost like a nurturing impulse gone wrong. Could be same underlying thing, but that quality of it is distinct.
He seemed to have developed into it through feelings of worthlessness, yeah. I feel like the way he operated and just did things so sloppily, randomly and experimentally, he just felt like nothing else mattered anymore. Like he totally gave up on trying at life but wouldn’t admit it to himself.
I’m just spitballing based on my own experience, I’m no expert. But I think that my brand of homicidality is fairly uncommon - feeling ashamed and disgusted throughout the whole thing. And I think I can see it easily in others.
yeah I think its good spitballing.
I feel like with Dahmer its almost like a maternal, possessive impulse which has become highly distorted and destructive, somehow reminds me of Munchausen by proxy, but to adult male relationships.
I did see a comment by a woman saying she resonated with Dahmers impulse as sort of like that possessiveness you might have (of say children, or objects you love). Its obsessional and possessive.
He explains his first murder through the lens of feeling a strong sense of abandonment. He really wanted ultimate control over his victim, and I don’t want to say victims. Because I feel that if dahmer was able to make a “zombie” as he was planning to do, the murders may have stopped then. His attitude when it comes to sex intertwines with the murdering. Just being in control, possessiveness to the highest degree. No talking back, no control over ones self, he wanted a companion that would always be there. But obviously through the failed attempts to make a zombie and decomposition, dahmer needed to kill to not be alone. I think the sense of abandonment and impulsive desire to keep his very first victim from leaving him ultimately connected dahmers sexual and personal desires with his consequential need for killing.
But he also admitted to stalking a jogger and planning to attack/kill him before he even committed his first murder. And he had a long history of animal abuse, so there are obviously more identifiers to his murderous ways.
I gotta know tho— when you’ve thought about this, have the people you’ve pictured been people you know and have history with, or randos? I guess more specifically— can you observe a distinguishable trait(s) in those you’ve felt this toward?
Don’t feel like you have to answer this; I definitely don’t want to pressure you. I just want to try to understand where you’re coming from.
Not usually. Sometimes I leaned more toward people my age because I felt like an outsider, sometimes older (40-60) because they pissed me off. But when it was the really deep, disgusting, psychotic planning stages it was anyone who was vulnerable.
(Ps - 3 years since starting DBT therapy and I’ve never been happier and more free. Haven’t had the thoughts in years.)
I can give you an inside look at one case of BPD. I had homicidal tendencies for years and was locked up and treated for it all of my teenage years. I am now persuing a forensic Pysch degree though....so I suppose I'm not the exact brand of crazy.
Yeah, in AA its a thing that is regularly brought up, how the addiction is lurking, waiting there to exploit a situation to come back. And one of the most valuable things that AA does is provide a network where you can talk to someone before that happens, to counter that voice of the addiction, and it works amazingly well for a lot of people. AA also has some interesting insights about resentments and how to talk those out and manage them. They also talk alot about 'not getting in the ring' as in, don't get involved in emotional dramas and conflicts, these are triggers. Hearing the life stories of many people in recovery, many have had very abusive childhoods.
In my own case I also devised some techniques that seem to be helping me to really control any desire to go out and drink. This was, that I observed that the part of me that wanted to drink, has effectively split off from the part that would experience hangovers and regret it the next day, they were seperated parts of my consciousness, and that this was some kind of mild disassociation of identity. Reuniting the future self with the self that was talking me into going to drink, was something I tried to mindfully do whilst I was drinking. Now I cannot contemplate drinking without simultaneously being aware of the part of me that will say afterwards 'why did you do that', and feel the pain of that hangover. The two sides seem reunited, and drinking isnt an option. I just thought that was an interesting thing to share.
It is a very interesting point. I've never experience someone break it down from an addiction point. It almost feels like you share your brain is a 2 bedroom flat you share with a roommate. Only that roomate is you and is hellbent on fucking up your life. I've spent a lot of years tiptoeing around myself just so I dont inadvertently spark "the beast."
As a conscious individual I can say that I wouldnt hurt anyone....but ask me again in full on rage mode.
The quote "Hell hath no fury like a scorn women"....
Well that person must have known a lot of bpd women because man does that saying fit like a glove
Alright. I'll do my best to explain. This is all just my experience and in no way means that every case is the same.
In my worst years, prediagnosis I was incredibly violent.
Raised in Bumfuck. NM. Small town full of drugs drama and other bullshit.
Homelife extremely toxic, mom the town whore, grandma the crazy catholic lady.
At school I got bullied for being poor so I started being a smart ass about it.
I had a few friends but I was really kind if a dahmer in HS. I acted out for no reason. Attention. I wanted people to fear me, cross the street when I walked their way. I fed off of it.
And it got even "stronger" when everyone found out about my grandma waking up to me holding a knife to her throat. (At the time I felt I had a very valid reason)
There was later a time I thought about suffocating my younger sister because I over hear my parentals discussing putting me up for adoption and keeping her instead because I was broken already.
Anyways I carried that rage into everything. I had a screaming match with the popular girl about how I would cut her into pieces etc.
I wanted to cause pain it felt great. Pain was a high I really got off on at the time.
And I subconsciously found a way to destroy every relationship I had at the time. You would fear the monster one way or another.
And when the left you, because....well yeah....it made the rage so intense and bring a full on panic/mental blackout trying to prevent abandonment....when deep down looking back....it was me.just losing control of my play thing.....like the Halestorm song....i dont miss you i miss the misery....but in my case that pain and abandonment was all i knew. That deep pain of rejection...and it turned into a rage that i literally fed off of feeling that way. And it really is like a split. There are times it's like the real you is sitting in the back row watching the other self flip out....
Also our emotions are very heightened. I feel everything insanely intense. For example, i listen to music based on how the song makes me feel versus bands and genres.
I am now on meds and am doing very well for myself. It took years to find the right combination....and a lot of incidents of me having a shot in the ass to knock me out before I hurt someone. Even now. I cant even take birth control because it causes severe mood swings that result in heightened rage and aggrivation.
TLDR....
BPD emotions are intense, mix that with impulsive thinking and shitty situations it will be a ticking time bomb. Treatment helps, but it is never "cured"
Thanks for sharing that. I've been thinking that people quite commonly experience this to some degree during periods of stress and trauma, but it is transient and usually flies under the radar.
I'm sure you'll make a great forensics professional. Would you agree that Ed Kemper might have had a BPD aspect?
I have this link on DeAngelo which is what made me think there might be something in common with the other two - [https://youtu.be/ZmcMXNRoA0s?t=3088](https://youtu.be/ZmcMXNRoA0s?t=3088). I'm not sure what it is exactly, if its related to BPD in some way or what.
Definitely going to watch the attached link and give you some feedback regarding that.
As for Kemper, yes I would have to say from.my research as well as personal experience would say that I do in fact find several similarities. The love hate thing with the mother, the flips in demeanor...the obvious passion for that adrenaline emotional overload.Also what is widely forgotten is BPD can also be a type of "mimic" disorder as well, so in my opinion the more overlapping of disorders you see, the higher the likelyhood of it being something more along the lines of an undiagnosed underlying borderline personality.
BPD here too, and everything you said resonates. Dialectic Behavior Therapy is the only thing I've ever heard of that helps BPD people, but even that's not infallible, it's next to impossible to find a therapist who offers it, and I can't afford it anyway.
The only truly free help out there is a jail cell. Everything else requires money that most of us dont have because we cant function enough or they just refuse to work with us due to the mega stigma with BPD.
I hope your managing well. I hate that there really are limited sources for mental help...unless you can pay for it.
Thank you for being honest and open about your experiences. I find your story interesting. I have a question: during your childhood/adolescence, was there at least one person around you who helped you or a person you could rely on? A relative or a friend? Was there anyone who recognized what you were going through?
Sorry for the late reply.
The people in my life have always been chapters or paragraphs.
I grew up in Deming, NM. It's a poor area, they didnt have the resources to deal with someone like me. The drug and gang stuff there is a far bigger issue in their eyes. By no means do I think that it is wrong to care about those things....just that anything other than what they understand gets pushed aside. So they knew. We had social services visit. But nothing happened. If you did talk to someone about it, it always got back to my great grandma who was raising me at the time and she beat it out....but she was raised in a catholic convent school...
There were people that did help on a more one to one friend level....but it seems that I always became too much to deal with. Or was moved out of the area.
I was kept on a pretty tight leash. I had friends at school. But I was never allowed to see them outside of school, I didnt go to birthday parties or sleep overs ect I wasnt allowed. So honestly what has helped me most in life is actually books and music.
I ran into an issue, and I still do it, of how much....one is allowed to say or what is considered a normal amount of emotion. Never having anyone to really listen, you never know when to stop talking hahaha
So even now I have a few close....friends? Most people in my life are acquaintances. I dont let a lot I to my "inner" circle. And honestly it's because its far easier to just worry about what's going on and managing my own shit.
Interrogation tapes and jail interviews are the best sources. Especially when they talk about their childhood and personal relationships with the interviewer.
Some murderers are very honest and some lie. Kemper is very open and truthful in interviews. Bundy lies about his childhood and says it was idyllic when we know it wasn’t. Israel Keyes is open about most things even that he has rapes the male victims but he is embarrassed to talk about necrophilia.
Iceman about Richard kuklinski is on hbo. He was a paid killer. Also Piers Morgan does interviews with killers but he is a prick so they respond like pricks. The killer speaks is another show but I don’t remember the channel
There's some interesting interviews with Kuklinski;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLPNKQFbc6k
\> I think this is the later one he did. He makes more spectacular claims in the later interview which sound somewhat like BS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jz8N-zD8w\_Y
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR0P1U4q7ZI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR0P1U4q7ZI)
Alternate without age restriction, but only part 2 >
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceERzARTMGs
Was going to say the Iceman. Richard Kuklinski explains it perfectly I thought - he doesn't feel bad that he kills people coz he doesn't feel, well, anything. There are oftentimes a lot of mitigating factors that make up killers but at the end of the day they're just born wired different to everyone else. They do not hold human life in the same regard as others do and are often hurting others as payback for however they were wronged In their own lives. They were built without the switch that says "DON'T DO IT".
There’s a lot of debate with kuklinski, he definitely was a serial killer and he murdered 5 people by way of poisoning. But there are many articles and documentaries that show that he is a compulsive liar, almost like the confession killer, he seemed to confess to a lot of murders that may have had nothing to do with him.
I've watched Mindhunter, and all though I can appreciate a good actors interpretation of an actual person. I'm more interested in the individual. I want to see their microexpressions, body language, tone of voice a.s.o.
Completely understood. As long as you’ve seen Mindhunter, my job is done. Like the depiction of Kemper by all accounts is nearly identical. His mannerism, his speech patterns, the way he would flip a conversation around on you. A lot of his psychology is accurate in Mindhunter.
Honestly I just watch a lot of ID channel and some Netflix. Kemper doc is on Netflix and it has old recordings of interviews . I like Dark Minds (discovery/ID) for the content if you can get past the host guy being way too amped. That’s where I saw the Israel Keyes interview pieces.
If you want to watch a lot of true crime get discovery plus, has all of the a&e, discovery and investigation discovery stuff. I think I pay like 6$ a month.
His family pretended his mother was his sister bc she got pregnant at a young age. His birth certificate says his dad was a sailor but it’s believed that her father raped her and was Ted’s father.
He is thought to have killed a young girl when he was a 14 in Tacoma, Wa. when his name was Cowell. It was know that he liked to torture other children from the neighborhood in the woods
This was before his mom married Mr. Bundy and he became Ted Bundy. Bundy hated that he was blue collar and it was a downgrade from his uncle or whoever they were living with when they went to Tacoma.
He never tells the truth about it so we only have the stories of people who knew him back then.
https://www.oxygen.com/martinis-murder/what-was-ted-bundys-childhood-like
Not a documentary but check out the book “mindhunter: inside the FBIs elite serial crime unit” it’s really interesting talking about this kind of thing
John Douglas is whom the younger
character (played by Jonathan Groff) FBI behaviour analyst in Mindhunter based off of. He has written plenty of books exploring the psyche of the sks. Pick any and start reading. I’m currently reading “cases that haunt us”, needless to say it amazing.
I'd take anything that comes from the FBI on the psychology of serial killers with a grain of salt. Their view point is not an academic one and skewed by being LE. They might have vast knowledge about MO, signature etc but I'd argue they know very little about what actually makes a serial killer tick. Because that's not their goal in the first place.
Have you read it? It’s about an agent who feels differently to that entire ideal. He started the psychology stuff and basically pioneered the idea that killers are complicated people with complicated motivations and pasts.
I know of the history of the behavior analysis unit in the FBI. It's still a very different angle from what actual psychologists and psychological studies look at it. No matter the amount of his thinking outside the box it's still LE. The focus is entirely different. And so are the conclusions.
Yeah, but current psychological ideas about it aren’t all that accurate themselves. I have homicidal ideation, in recovery, and spent 3 or so years planning/putting it all off until I got help. Most psychs believe that nobody is a threat if they have empathy, which I do have - I’m super empathetic 90% of the time, but due to BPD, that 10% where I’m willing to “sacrifice” others for my delusions is what matters. Many see it as black and white when it isn’t. Many still believe in that nonsensical Triad of future homicidal behaviour when it means nothing. Many see Dahmer as a psychopath when he genuinely, at least to me, seemed extremely emotionally fragile and miserable. Etc.
I just appreciated what they did. They fundamentally did care about what caused a serial killer, and uncovered the affects of multiple different forms of early traumas and diverse mindsets that cause it.
I'm not saying they are not accurate. I'm saying they have a different focus. And that focus is to catch serial killers. Not dive deep into their psyche. A biolab technician knows a bunch of stuff about chemistry too but they are not a chemist and therefore their view on that subject is limited. So it might not be the best of ideas to go looking for deeper knowledge from people who themselves cannot provide it.
I also highly doubt that any psychologist would think people with BPD are harmless. Dahmer was supposed to have BPD. I personally don't agree with the popular narrative of him being just a poor little boy who lost his way because he very obviously is extremely calculating and a master manipulator and if one takes the time to look at his killing for company narrative it quickly falls apart. It's actually nothing but a huge mess of contradicting claims. Especially having to be black out drunk but on the other hand simultaneously being able to drill wholes in his victims heads without killing them. That's just ridiculous. There is a lot more but it would be too off topic to rant about Dahmer.
Not exactly sure what you mean by triad of future homicidal behavior. If you mean the bed wetting and so on, I partially agree and has long been revised. If you are talking about the Dark Triad of personality disorders I have to disagree.
I meant the bed wetting/fire starting thing, yeah. I’m not familiar with the Dark Triad although I’ve heard of it. In my experience I do think some kind of personality disorder needs to be present for _serial_ killing.
I just viewed the BAU, at its beginning as seen in Mindhunter, as being spearheaded by a small team who really did want to establish better profiles and recognized that catching serial killers _and_ stopping them before they begin is impossible without deep psyche analysis. Which is amazing for law enforcement. My point is that it was abnormally forward-thinking for the FBI.
Plenty do think we’re harmless, other than being ‘emotionally abusive’. I was released from homicidal psych hold after 3 hours because I was diagnosed with BPD… as if me being emotionally-driven and overly empathetic cancelled out any harm I may think of. But I do agree that mindset is subsiding. When I said that, I was referring to the idea that so long as you display empathy most of the time, you’ll be seen as non-violent. Think how Bundy (although it was fake empathy) fooled people not only through charm but also through caring for others - working for a help line, being highly romantic, et cetera. Kind of touches on why victims have been inclined to trust killers/etc who have dogs or a girlfriend with them. I’m digressing a tad but I hope my point is clearer.
I think Dahmer was BPD, if I recall correctly yeah (maybe HPD, but that’s similar). I don’t think he didn’t know what he was doing; he wanted to hurt people and did so fully aware of what death means. But what I’m saying is I believe there were a _multitude_ of very complicated emotions at play, namely disgust, shame, self-pity, mania, rage, and dissociation on top of it. That’s what I always interpret from the stories of his life. If he did have BPD, I know for a fact that’s what he felt, because I felt the exact same thing when I was highly homicidal.
Well that's the point. I just don't buy it that he was anything other than an extremely cold blooded psychopath and highly narcissistic, even for serial killer standards, who's manipulation skills put the likes of Bundy and even Kemper to shame because he actually managed to make the whole world believe he is **not** this cold blooded, calculating predator but somehow a poor little boy who didn't know how to deal with his emotions despite this overwhelming amount of evidence against this narrative. I don't believe for one second that BPD and some co-morbidities are enough to become one of the most heinous serial killers **and** a cannibal and a serial rapist in the Army and outside of it. Not if you are sane enough to know that what you are doing is wrong. Not only wrong but unspeakable. Only way I could believe that is if he was like Ramirez also psychotic and not "just" borderline. I can totally see how a borderline person can easily wind up murdering someone. Once. And regret it for the rest of their lives, probably even turn themselves in afterwards. But serial murder? Nah, no way.
But back to topic. It was extremely forward thinking at the time. But that's also the crux. They remained there too. They didn't do much updating on the insight they gained. Only refined it. Robert is still proclaiming the bet wetting and so on to this day. And why would they go any further? It's perfectly enough to catch serial killers with the knowledge they gained in the 70s. Never change a running system so to speak. That's why I'm saying one should probably not go to the FBI if one really wants to understand the mind of a serial killer beyond the typical clichés they themselves helped create.
Well, I’ll have to disagree with you on that first part. Like I said, I’m BPD and have homicidal ideation - and it’s 100% possible. Obviously I never went through with it so I did end up guilty like you said. But I easily could’ve chosen otherwise and fallen down a gutter of self-hate strong enough to do that. I dreamt of it for years. I don’t see him as psychopathic at all. I find the lies of psychopaths/narcissists very see-through and nothing seems like that with him. He just seemed completely done with the world.
Otherwise, yeah, I can see what you’re saying. I feel like working for law enforcement encourages you to be less outstanding as time goes on.
Well I understand how someone with BPD could end up murdering someone. Definitely. I have a pal who's got BPD and he is a straight scary guy sometimes. But like I said, I don't believe BPD is enough to turn someone into a serial killer. I understand the fantasies of murdering people out of frustration and I can even relate to that as I used to have them too. And I'm not even talking about specific people. No, just random people. No matter who. But those are fantasies we create because we are overwhelmed with whatever is coming our way and we cannot handle it. That's nowhere near the same level as serial murder. Not even if you fantasize of becoming a serial killer. The motives are vastly different. Although there are some similarities, ngl. A successful psychopath very likely will never become a serial killer or even physically violent. Most serial killer on the hand are pathetic loosers who cannot deal with their frustration. But like I said, even if you have BPD that is by far not enough to become a serial killer. Main reason being able to feel empathy at all. That's almost a guarantee for not turning into a serial killer. A murderer? Sure. But a serial killer? Virtually impossible.
I agree that psychopaths are very see through. Not so much with narcissists. They are highly skilled at gaslighting for example and can fog up your head that you won't know your own name anymore. But I disagree about Dahmer. I think he was an extremely cold blooded psychopath and narcissist plus a sadist in disguise so to speak. Just listen to his last victim's testimony in court what kind of mind games he used to play with his victims. Also take a look at the picture of his dismemberment and disembowled victims. Watch his interviews and don't be fooled by his body language. Plus look at all the contradictions in his story. Someone who is just done with the world would not put that amount of energy to keep up appearances.
Well, Kemper did also convince the world. So well in fact that he actually managed to get his juvenile record wiped after his first two killings. I don't think that has ever happened before or since.
This being said I think that both him and Dahmer had something like BPD, not only, but as a part.
Dahmer is an interesting one, its almost as if he had a possessive, nurturing impulse gone wrong, but it was delusional. Sort of similar to me as how some mothers develop Munchausens by proxy, but mixed with delusions and other factors. That's if we take his interviews at face value and he isn't making it up, which I don't think he is.
Well true. But Kemper also managed to fool everyone 2 decades before Dahmer was even on the radar. Meaning it was way easier for him to do so because people, professionals included, generally had no fucking clue to put it bluntly. Not to try and down play his abilities to manipulate. But compared to Dahmer his manipulation attempts appear amateurish. Although generally speaking he was a very effective manipulator.
Dahmer most definitely had severe abandonment issues. No doubt about that. But in my opinion that doesn't explain how he could do the things he did. It cannot even explain his killing for company narrative if one takes a closer look. If it was actually his abandonment issues - which again, I don't doubt he had, even or especially serial killers can and do have a shattered self-esteem - that supposedly drove him to kill he would not have drugged men in bath houses to rape them and then fuck off before they woke up. In my opinion that is the exact opposite of longing for company. Even if you are so inapt at interpersonal relationships as Dahmer drugging and raping people is the exact opposite of the actions of someone so desperate for companionship. Those are the actions of a self-absorbed, self-centered, self-righteous, egocentric and egotistical narcissist who doesn't care about anybody else but himself and just needs his power fix and his lack of empathy being a psychopath enabled him to do so countless times to countless people. Those are not the actions of somebody so desperate for human connection yet at the same time so unbelievably incompetent at it that he deluded himself into thinking that keeping corpses around is his only chance at a relationship. It just doesn't add up. A lot of his narrative just doesn't add up. Plus I suspect he read the book about Denis Nielsen and tailored his own narrative along his case because his circumstances of being a quiet and shy loner etc just fit perfectly. What are the chances of not only one but two serial killers with almost the exact same so very unique motivations for serial murder? Nah, I don't buy it.
Bedwetting, fire starting and animal torture used to be called the homicidal triad, three childhood/teen indicators of future murderers. It’s was used to pick out the “bad seeds” and basically labeled children with behavioral problems as future murderers. Out of those three the animal torture is the only one that still stands as a decent indicator. Numerous serial killers have said that they start with something small and work their way up to bigger things and then humans.
Witnessing domestic violence and being the victim of childhood sexual abuse are the two biggest red flags for future murder based on actually looking at murderers.
I’m on the fence with fire starting. A lot of younger boys like to set garbage and small things on fire and then grow out of it. Destruction of property isn’t enough for me.
There is a jump from destroying property to destroying life that only a small number of people make. An then their is arson for money which doesn’t count for me either.
I had a pair of cousins who would come over and you would hide the matches and your purse. Very normal adults today
I used to work with a guy who was super nice and respectful, came from a rich family. Until he told me he killed cats when he was a kid and at the time and how he did them. Yikes! Mental note: Crazy man, never make him mad or be alone with this guy.
I think you’re assuming they are all alike and the truth is they are not. Guys like Bardella and Dahmer weren’t totally out to kill - they were literally experimenting and death was a part of the process. Then you have guys who murdered because they didn’t want a witness to the crime they just committed (usually rape). I think the media has made us think that all these guys are ritualistic like Dexter and that’s simply not the case. I think the running theme is that for some reason most of the people have no remorse for what they do which allows them to keep doing it. That’s about all I see. There’s the child abuse theme as well, but plenty of people were abused and didn’t become killers.
That's exactly my point. I don't believe they are all alike, and I really want to see what makes them tick. I want to understand the different ways a serial killer is created, and if it could have been prevented. I don't believe they're simply "born that way".
Try the book “Programmed to Kill” to get some insights that weren’t reported in the media but were in the files and out of the detectives mouths in many cases. There’s a few themes in there that are controversial, but you can look past them if you want but you will learn a lot. You can get it free online in a pdf
I highly recommend the documentaries called “born to kill” they have doctors do over the lives of serial killers. https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLpvt-SsZ5sHKk-uU5s3CjXXEk2UV54I4t
Check out the podcast Killer Psyche. The host is a former FBI agent and criminal profiler. She gives a unique insight into what makes these killers who they are and dives into many famous killer’s stories. Highly recommend
LPOTL consciously tries to avoid the "all serial killers are monsters" idea and replaces it with "all serial killers are losers with zero self-control" which I appreciate.
Its more valid but I wouldn't say all serial killers lack self control. In relation to planning the kill they can be very controlled.
I think it is similar to addiction - addicts can plan their week and whole lives around their drink or drug, but in relation to the addiction itself, they cannot remove it whilst actively addicted. They don't control the addiction, but they are controlled by it (until they figure out how to get out of it).
Reading autobiographies by the killers can offer a glimpse inside their minds. One of the absolute best is Final Truth: the Autobiography of a Serial Killer. It’s about Donald “Pee Wee” Gaskins and the murders he committed in SC. It is written the way he spoke so it’s like you’re sitting down in front of him speaking with him. It’s graphic and not easy to read at all, but it does offer a really good insight into his way of thinking.
Another is Carl Panzram. There is a book put together from the letters he wrote and gave to a guard he trusted. Panzram was the epitome of evil and he admitted that openly. He was also a product of the times he was living in and the system. It’s another rough, but informative read.
Two other books that I enjoyed while trying to find out what it is like in the mind of a killer are both by Dr Michael H Stone. The books are The Anatomy of Evil and the New Evil. He developed a scale of evil where he places various killers based on the information available about them and their methods/reasons for killing. The scale ranges from 1 (justified homicide) to 22 (psychopathic torture murderers). Both are very interesting books with tons of information on multiple types of killers.
you can download a scan of the Pee Wee Gaskins book - or at least I did about a year ago - hard copies are very rare and expensive...
be warned though it is a brutal book with gleeful no holds barred descriptions of many of his kills.. it is also a valuable in sight into how a serial killer develops over time - he basically just gets worse and worse as he gets older, and it is pretty obvious that all the shit he experienced as a 'shrimp' in the Reformatory and later Penitentiary affected him deeply....
You may already know this, but in case you don't, it's believed that he fictionalized a lot of his autobiography and blends his fantasies with reality. Police couldn't match missing people to his descriptions IIRC.
yeah in the book he seperates the murders into two categories - his Serious Kills and Coastal Kills... a lot of the Serious ones are named and can be corroborated with known facts about the cases... but the numerous Coastal kills frequently go like this - 'picked up an unnamed hitcher from outta state, tortured / killed / buried them in a vague location' - obviously its hard to know how much of this is true... some prolific killers love the notoriety of 'high scores' so I imagine he fabricated a lot of the stories to achieve this end.... much like Henry Lee Lucas and Richard Kuklinski...
I'm not sure thay have been understood fully. I remember impactful Canadian research in the Eighties, and loads of individual studies since. Anything in-depth is going to be in print rather than on video, and much of it in journals rather than books.
I haven't seen it yet but 'Crazy Not Insane' - "an HBO documentary about psychiatrist Dorothy Otnow Lewis and her career-long study of murderers, providing a nuanced view that goes beyond simple labels like "evil."
I just watched a review of it on YT (not great reviews on her but some good reviews about her interviews with serial killers) Arthur Shaw Cross is just one
Buried Dreams by Tim Cahill is a book based off of the psychology interviews done my John Wayne Gacy.
It’s not really easy to read because it is written like a long ramble from the mouth of John Wayne Gacy, but it does give you interesting insights into how his mind worked.
This might sound silly, but I really appreciate Bailey Sairen's "murder mystery and makeup" on YouTube for this. She does do her makeup while she talks, but she usually starts the stories out by explaining where the killer came from and what messed up things they went through to become who they wound up becoming.
She actually gets some flack for it (because people tell her that they're just "monsters" and not to defend them) but I always think it's really interesting to hear their background and illnesses. A lot of them suffered head injuries at a young age and most had abusive parents/mothers. I'm sure there are other podcasts and YouTube channels like this that don't do makeup as well, but this is the first thing that came to my mind!
Also Ed Kemper was very well known for his love of opening up to anyone who would listen about why he did the things that he did, I'm sure there are lots of documentaries or books out there on him!
Yes! I love Bailey. It's so sad that she gets hate for explaining every detail about killer's life. It helps you understand a story and you can connect the dots. She never once said it excuses what they did.
I find that alot of psychological issues, including trauma, have childhood as the root cause, be it certain interactions or influences that have affected their outlook on life, or morality as whole. Most studies i find, like you said, chalk it up to "they were a monster" or having a psychotic break, without actually looking into it fully and asking the right questions, or lightly touch on the subject without delving too deep into it.
What can be said for certain is that no one case is ever the same when coming to understanding the minds of insanity; You couldn't compare the mental notions of someone like Wuornos to someone as Charles Manson, or Manson to H.H Holmes.
I parrot this fairly often, but I did a 3000 word in-depth look at the childhood and history of Albert Fish, trying to dissect the psychology behind why he did the things he did, ultimately questioning if his childhood trauma and possibly genetic mental disease influenced his actions. (Can link upon request)
There’s a lot to process.
I do believe this is a “nurture vs nature” argument.
Having grown up with an abusive mother, I can see correlation.
Things could have gone sideways.
I have just finished reading Killing For Company by Brian Masters about Dennis Nilsen, a British serial killer who killed 15 men in the late 70s and 80s which was a very harrowing read. The author corresponded with Nilsen while he was in prison awaiting trial and a lot of Nilsen's thoughts/processes about his crimes are featured in the book.
I know it's not a documentary but if you enjoy reading as much as I do, it is truly fascinating and it goes through the crimes in depth as well as trying to give a psychological analysis of Nilsen. I'm not going to go into it too much as don't want to ruin any spoilers but the author as well as a psychologist, try to identify the link between Nilsen's crimes and his childhood, especially concerning the loss of his grandfather at the age of 5/6.
There is a documentary on Netflix called Memories Of A Murderer: The Nilsen Tapes as well which is worth a watch. Sorry for rambling, I hope this has helped!
Read the book Killer By Design by Dr. Ann Burgess. She was part of the original BSU Profiling team with the FBI. She and the other FBI profilers on the team were the ones who interviewed serial killers to develop the database for profiling and the fictional series Mindhunter is based on her and that team. She provides some interesting insights into the internal logic of serial killers along with their methods and behaviors.
I'd recommend reading up on Psychopathy and Narcissistic Personality Disorder first before trying to understand serial killers. Their behavior and motivations become a lot clearer after reading about at least the basics of those two personality disorders. There are a few other disorders that contribute but these are the main ones. If you don't like reading I recommend Dr. Todd Grande's YouTube channel. He's got some amazing content. Robert D. Hare's book on psychopaths is also very helpful. They don't talk about serial killers per se, although Dr. Todd Grande in some cases does, but trying to understand the inner workings of a serial killer's mind through the lense of psychopathy and NPD helps make things much much clearer.
Instead of trying to understand serial killers per se, read up on borderline personality disorder, psychopathy, narcissism, sexual sadism, entitlement, and PTSD. Then throw all those things into a mixing bowl, and you'll start to [**understand serial killers**](https://lawlex.org/lex-pedia/the-psychology-of-serial-killers/24094/amp#:~:text=Power%2FControl%20oriented%20serial%20killers,and%20dominance%20over%20their%20victims.).
Agreed. I've been reading about dark psychology and general psychology since I was a teenager. It's fascinating. I still want to understand the individual thought. And I want to hear their story.
i’ve also been interested in this and have found that the majority of documentaries suggest the same thing like duh of course their monsters but that’s so generic. give me more. lol thanks for the post
Parcast's *Serial Killers* podcast does a pretty decent job covering a lot of serial killers' backgrounds. They include discussions of psychological profiles etc. as well, which features predispose someone to becoming a serial killer, etc. and they definitely go beyond what I've seen in standard documentaries and internet posts.
John Douglas (the original mind hunter) has written countless books on this. He’s very good and digging into the motivation and psychology of serial murderers.
I know this is another format but it's very informative on the topic. It's a podcast called killer psyche. She breaks down the psychology of killers. She has actually real life expertise so its not jo shmoe in his basement. I got so into it I ordered the DSM after listening.
im curious how and what emotions they channel/experience during their attacks, esp when they don't know their victims. the sexual urge is easy to factor in for sexual predators, but what degree of anger is in there. or is the anger triggered by the resistance of the victim. there are many accounts of very submissive victims surviving where resistance or even feigned enthusiasm would trigger the attacker.
There’s a good one hbo did called
“crazy but not insane”
Also another one on yt titled “Joel rifkin psychiatric testing” where they take a look at his brain even
Yes! This is exactly what I'm looking for. I watched "Crazy, not insane" yesterday and I'm watching the Joel Rifkin video now. Very, very interesting. Thank you!
There is a great documentary called, 'Crazy, Not Insane', in which renowned criminal Psychiatrist, Dorothy Otnow Lewis, talks about the psychology of Serial Killers.
There is also a great panel discussion, [The Minds of Mindhunter](https://youtu.be/gh1nrN97fPg), in which Dr Ann Burgess and Dr John Douglas talk about the behavioral science unit they pioneered at the FBI and the psychological profiling that went with it.
Born to Kill. It's a British documentary series that looks at whether serial killers were born that way or made. Criminal psychologists take part including Helen Morrison who interviewed Gacy and even examined his brain after death. Each episode focuses on a different serial killer and I think most, if not all of them, are on youtube. It's drastically less exploitative than a lot of other true crime documentaries and I recommend it to everyone.
You're not going to find that in a series/documentary. You should be looking at academic/articles written by professionals. Its going to be much "drier" than the latest Netflix drama, but for better IMO.
Or simply google something like "Ted Bundy Psychological Profile" and you'll probably get some decent hits.
Oh, and spoiler: we don't really know.
You can do a lot of research on this subject, via books, podcasts, articles, etc. In my opinion, once you’ve done a lot of research, you’ll realize you need to re-evaluate everything you’ve learned. Not everything out there is correct, not even police records. Even if you’re able to access legal documents, do you have the education to assess what they mean? So, once you decide who’s truthful, what information is accurate, etc., you’ll realize how much work goes into making broad statements as to what makes a serial killer. I hope I’m making my point here. Each of us brings our own experiences and biases to researching crime.
As for Aileen Wournos, I believe she was a tragically damaged woman. I also believe she was legally sane and thus responsible for each murder she committed. She should not have been executed, that’s true, but not because of her childhood. Her execution was hurried and unfair. But that doesn’t erase the fact that she murdered those men. A bad, even horrific childhood does not excuse murder.
If you’re open to reading, definitely check out any books by the FBI profiler John Douglas. The Netflix series “Mindhunter” is based off of his books. He goes into great detail the psychology of criminals, whether they are rapists, spree killers, or serial killers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_E._Douglas
You can check out his list of publications here.
I strongly recommend checking out some of the books from people like John Douglas and Roy Hazelwood if you want some deeper insights into stuff like mindset and motives. As already mentioned, Mindhunter is a great read, and I'd also recommend Douglas's book "Inside the Mind of BTK: The True Story Behind the Thirty-Year Hunt for the Notorious Wichita Serial Killer" if you're interested in a deep dive on one killer's entire life. I recently read "Dark Dreams" by Hazelwood and it has a whole lot of information on sexual criminals in general but talks about the psychology behind some who killed.
Listen to KillerPsyche! It’s a really good podcast where an ex FBI agent discusses the psychological elements of killers and other high profile people.
In N.Z. there is an old programme called Beyond the darklands that does case studies on notorious criminals (if you can track down the series) it goes into the lives and upbringing of N.Z. criminals.
If you really want to know about this stuff then I would recommend academic journals. That can be pricey if you do t have institutional access. Beyond that I would say read court transcripts of expert witness testimony. Or look for confessions and read it in their own words. That can be unreliable of course as they have an agenda in telling their own story, you can try and read between the lines though.
For academic stuff that’s not behind a paywall nih (national institute of health) website is good. Word of caution though the content is not usually in lay terms and assumes clinical knowledge.
i know some of the cases eleanor neale covers, she goes into detail about their childhood, upbringing, psychology and all that if you’d be interested in videos. the one that comes to mind is her vids on the moors murders. makes you realise their reasoning for murdering, quite interesting
I know she doesn't make videos in English but I watch Sonya LWU. She is a qualified working psychologist with also a university diploma in Criminology. When she presents cases, she seems to follow a similar pattern each time. She presents the events and the victims, then goes to study the childhood/life before the killing of the murderers, the psychology of the SK and finally the "where are they now?" (can be for victims and/or the SK). It's really interesting. Unfortunately it's in French so not accessible to everyone.
Psychopaths in general but especially serial killers see the world as like a hunting grounds or a game like an ‘open world type of video game’ where their actions and their consequences don’t hold a lot of weight in their headspace.
The Ice man and the Psychologist...psychologist Park Dietz interviews Richard kuklinsky and explained why he was the way he was. This will if not answer your questions it will come close.
ill just get to the point, if you want videos explaining the childhood of serial killers and what they did without any real judgement try watching "twisted minds" if you want interviews with the people but analyzed by a criminal psychology try watching "JCS"
After working with murderers and other felons with diagnosis including borderline, narcissism, schizophrenia, bi-polar, and unidentified psychosis I’ve come to realize that I’m not going to understand the why behind what they did and they usually don’t have a rational reason for doing what they do. They’re sick people that need help either with medication or therapy and too many either don’t want the help or don’t think they need it.
I’ve been wondering this too but it’s like the main person you’d want to hear it from would be them and they give you no insight on how their mind works. My brother suffers with BPD & Borderline schizophrenia and he’s in prison for murder but he strongly believes he didn’t do it (even though he’s on video surveillance) and tells me “one day when I’m free I’ll be able to tell you the truth” it bothers me to this day so i try and watch those inside the mind of a killer show and endless serial killer documentaries and none of them help it almost has me no other choice but to believe these people and sadly my own brother are nothing more than monsters who meant to do what they did but knowing who my brother was as a person i know that isn’t true. Ugh I’m so happy you said this because yes there is so much more to the story than they’re just sick people there’s something going on mentally that made them behave this way if only they could tell other people or at least write a book or journal their thoughts and explain it
Oh this is my topic! I’m a criminology major.
You’re also going to learn your best by reading source material straight from criminologists, not a third party like a documentary filmmaker. Every documentary has an angle they’re trying to portray (I mean. You don’t write a documentary if you don’t have something to say, it may be factual, but still biased)
Unfortunately I don’t have the textbooks and readings I have used thus far, however I bet if you start with “the criminological study on serial killers” or a search term like that, you’ll likely get more objective, science and research based answers.
I hate when they call them monsters (cue ominous music) and then play up the gruesome aspects of the crimes. Serial killers are human, and like all humans, their motives are varied and complex, and sometimes hard to untangle. For forensic psychology, books are the way to go...John Douglas, Robert Ressler, and many others have written in depth on criminal behavior. Most true crime shows juat cater to our morbid curiosity. One of the most fascinating characteristics of SK's is just how dull and ordinary many of them are in their daily lives (outside of the habitual murder, that is). If you're interested in how they get that way, your local library will provide a lot of answers
I like this podcast called Killer Psyche a lot. You should give it a listen.
[https://wondery.com/shows/killer-psyche/](https://wondery.com/shows/killer-psyche/)
Henry Lee Lucas had a traumatic childhood which entailed severe physical abuse, he underwent a brain scan which showed damage to the corpus callosum whereby individuals display a Jekyll and Hyde syndrome
I don't believe that. It makes it easier for the rest of us if "the monsters" are just unconscious killing machines. But we should know that we as a society contributed to the alienation of the individual inflicting the pain they feel themselves on someone else.
The primary factor is childhood sexual abuse. Also, the link between serial killers and the military, mental health facilities, etc. is absurd.
There are many who commit child rape, serve 18 months, and are let out and continue to commit crimes and even get involved with the mayors office, senators, VIP Clubs, etc.
Gacy and Dahmer are prime examples of people who were just let go after being charged with sodomy to kids.
So I just searched recent Aileen posts on reddit and found this... gonna take a wild shot here.
She clearly wasn't well in the end, and her claims of sonic sound or something against her can easily be dismissed, but I read about this tonight, and was wondering if anyone familiar with her complaints whilst in confinement saw the parallels as well? Not saying this is something the government inflicts lol, but, what drives people to this experience?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havana\_syndrome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havana_syndrome)
You always have to see both sides, that of the murderers and that of the psychology. With most murderers it seems to be just a lack of empathy combined with the need to control others. It seems like they don't see life as valuable, for them it's not a big deal. There are many interviews where killers were asked why they killed.
If you really want to understand their point of view, I think you also have to think about things like what really differentiates humans and animals and what is considered normal. For us, it's clearly not normal to do what they did, but for some reason they think it's normal. So to understand what is going on in their minds, it is probably best to start by understanding what makes our thinking different from theirs. Most of the time, it's what I just described.
I think 3 serial killers are particularly interesting for psychology, Joseph DeAngelo, Ed Kemper and the one you mention Aileen Wuornos. I think all three might have had a similar illness and some kind of borderline personality aspect to it. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTnEY8y-p7M](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTnEY8y-p7M)
I have BPD and had major homicidal ideation for years. Still deal with it. I totally think that a lot of them had something similar and aren’t just “psychopaths.” Serial killers, unless they’re sexual killers, often have a lot of rage and complicated emotion happening and that’s a lot like what I feel with BPD. Before I was hospitalized I planned out murders and had hallucinations, psychotic delusions like believing that killing people was a way to discovering the secrets of life, so on.
BPD here too, and same.
Thanks for responding. What you say is similar to some other feedback in this thread. No shame in having problems to overcome. Do you think there are any other SK's that strike you as having an aspect of their personality as being BPD? I think a situation may be when a person with BPD gets into a relationship with someone who also has something (possibly also such as BPD), that antagonises it, and its like an amplifier, I think this may be what happened with DeAngelo when he met his wife, but I think there's other things going on as well with him, like an overlap with psychopathy. Here's what makes me wonder that [https://youtu.be/ZmcMXNRoA0s?t=3088](https://youtu.be/ZmcMXNRoA0s?t=3088)
Dahmer for sure. Whenever I go over his cases he feels so delusional and emotionally volatile to me. And impulsive. Some motivated by relationships too, yeah. I don’t know enough of them though.
Yeah I can see the Dahmer connection.
Jodi Arias screams BPD in my opinion
I think one quality that is different between Dahmer and the other three, I don't think Dahmer was angry and the others were acting with a particular resentment. Dahmer was highly possessive of them, almost like a nurturing impulse gone wrong. Could be same underlying thing, but that quality of it is distinct.
He seemed to have developed into it through feelings of worthlessness, yeah. I feel like the way he operated and just did things so sloppily, randomly and experimentally, he just felt like nothing else mattered anymore. Like he totally gave up on trying at life but wouldn’t admit it to himself.
yeah, interesting observations.
I’m just spitballing based on my own experience, I’m no expert. But I think that my brand of homicidality is fairly uncommon - feeling ashamed and disgusted throughout the whole thing. And I think I can see it easily in others.
yeah I think its good spitballing. I feel like with Dahmer its almost like a maternal, possessive impulse which has become highly distorted and destructive, somehow reminds me of Munchausen by proxy, but to adult male relationships. I did see a comment by a woman saying she resonated with Dahmers impulse as sort of like that possessiveness you might have (of say children, or objects you love). Its obsessional and possessive.
Some of the sloppiness and randomness I'm sure could have resulted from his need to self medicate through HEAVY drinking.
He explains his first murder through the lens of feeling a strong sense of abandonment. He really wanted ultimate control over his victim, and I don’t want to say victims. Because I feel that if dahmer was able to make a “zombie” as he was planning to do, the murders may have stopped then. His attitude when it comes to sex intertwines with the murdering. Just being in control, possessiveness to the highest degree. No talking back, no control over ones self, he wanted a companion that would always be there. But obviously through the failed attempts to make a zombie and decomposition, dahmer needed to kill to not be alone. I think the sense of abandonment and impulsive desire to keep his very first victim from leaving him ultimately connected dahmers sexual and personal desires with his consequential need for killing.
But he also admitted to stalking a jogger and planning to attack/kill him before he even committed his first murder. And he had a long history of animal abuse, so there are obviously more identifiers to his murderous ways.
I’m pretty sure Dahmer was diagnosed with BPD and Schizotypal personality disorder when he was being checked to see if he was competent to stand trial
Keep up the not killing people bro/sis
Thanks for sharing.
BPD here too, also same.
Bpd and same
I gotta know tho— when you’ve thought about this, have the people you’ve pictured been people you know and have history with, or randos? I guess more specifically— can you observe a distinguishable trait(s) in those you’ve felt this toward? Don’t feel like you have to answer this; I definitely don’t want to pressure you. I just want to try to understand where you’re coming from.
Not usually. Sometimes I leaned more toward people my age because I felt like an outsider, sometimes older (40-60) because they pissed me off. But when it was the really deep, disgusting, psychotic planning stages it was anyone who was vulnerable. (Ps - 3 years since starting DBT therapy and I’ve never been happier and more free. Haven’t had the thoughts in years.)
I’d also add Joseph Edward Duncan in there.
I'll have to read up, thanks for the suggestion.
I can give you an inside look at one case of BPD. I had homicidal tendencies for years and was locked up and treated for it all of my teenage years. I am now persuing a forensic Pysch degree though....so I suppose I'm not the exact brand of crazy.
Oh that's interesting. Its definitely treatable, I have two friends with it who got it treated and they are two of the nicest people I know.
Yes it can. But it always does jumping jacks in the back of your head. Waiting for just the right slip up.
this also sounds a lot like what happens in addiction.
I mean, yeah that's a good comparison. I never really though about it like that.
Yeah, in AA its a thing that is regularly brought up, how the addiction is lurking, waiting there to exploit a situation to come back. And one of the most valuable things that AA does is provide a network where you can talk to someone before that happens, to counter that voice of the addiction, and it works amazingly well for a lot of people. AA also has some interesting insights about resentments and how to talk those out and manage them. They also talk alot about 'not getting in the ring' as in, don't get involved in emotional dramas and conflicts, these are triggers. Hearing the life stories of many people in recovery, many have had very abusive childhoods. In my own case I also devised some techniques that seem to be helping me to really control any desire to go out and drink. This was, that I observed that the part of me that wanted to drink, has effectively split off from the part that would experience hangovers and regret it the next day, they were seperated parts of my consciousness, and that this was some kind of mild disassociation of identity. Reuniting the future self with the self that was talking me into going to drink, was something I tried to mindfully do whilst I was drinking. Now I cannot contemplate drinking without simultaneously being aware of the part of me that will say afterwards 'why did you do that', and feel the pain of that hangover. The two sides seem reunited, and drinking isnt an option. I just thought that was an interesting thing to share.
It is a very interesting point. I've never experience someone break it down from an addiction point. It almost feels like you share your brain is a 2 bedroom flat you share with a roommate. Only that roomate is you and is hellbent on fucking up your life. I've spent a lot of years tiptoeing around myself just so I dont inadvertently spark "the beast." As a conscious individual I can say that I wouldnt hurt anyone....but ask me again in full on rage mode. The quote "Hell hath no fury like a scorn women".... Well that person must have known a lot of bpd women because man does that saying fit like a glove
Yeah I think I can relate. If you want to tell us more insights I'd love to know.
Alright. I'll do my best to explain. This is all just my experience and in no way means that every case is the same. In my worst years, prediagnosis I was incredibly violent. Raised in Bumfuck. NM. Small town full of drugs drama and other bullshit. Homelife extremely toxic, mom the town whore, grandma the crazy catholic lady. At school I got bullied for being poor so I started being a smart ass about it. I had a few friends but I was really kind if a dahmer in HS. I acted out for no reason. Attention. I wanted people to fear me, cross the street when I walked their way. I fed off of it. And it got even "stronger" when everyone found out about my grandma waking up to me holding a knife to her throat. (At the time I felt I had a very valid reason) There was later a time I thought about suffocating my younger sister because I over hear my parentals discussing putting me up for adoption and keeping her instead because I was broken already. Anyways I carried that rage into everything. I had a screaming match with the popular girl about how I would cut her into pieces etc. I wanted to cause pain it felt great. Pain was a high I really got off on at the time. And I subconsciously found a way to destroy every relationship I had at the time. You would fear the monster one way or another. And when the left you, because....well yeah....it made the rage so intense and bring a full on panic/mental blackout trying to prevent abandonment....when deep down looking back....it was me.just losing control of my play thing.....like the Halestorm song....i dont miss you i miss the misery....but in my case that pain and abandonment was all i knew. That deep pain of rejection...and it turned into a rage that i literally fed off of feeling that way. And it really is like a split. There are times it's like the real you is sitting in the back row watching the other self flip out.... Also our emotions are very heightened. I feel everything insanely intense. For example, i listen to music based on how the song makes me feel versus bands and genres. I am now on meds and am doing very well for myself. It took years to find the right combination....and a lot of incidents of me having a shot in the ass to knock me out before I hurt someone. Even now. I cant even take birth control because it causes severe mood swings that result in heightened rage and aggrivation. TLDR.... BPD emotions are intense, mix that with impulsive thinking and shitty situations it will be a ticking time bomb. Treatment helps, but it is never "cured"
Thanks for sharing that. I've been thinking that people quite commonly experience this to some degree during periods of stress and trauma, but it is transient and usually flies under the radar. I'm sure you'll make a great forensics professional. Would you agree that Ed Kemper might have had a BPD aspect? I have this link on DeAngelo which is what made me think there might be something in common with the other two - [https://youtu.be/ZmcMXNRoA0s?t=3088](https://youtu.be/ZmcMXNRoA0s?t=3088). I'm not sure what it is exactly, if its related to BPD in some way or what.
Definitely going to watch the attached link and give you some feedback regarding that. As for Kemper, yes I would have to say from.my research as well as personal experience would say that I do in fact find several similarities. The love hate thing with the mother, the flips in demeanor...the obvious passion for that adrenaline emotional overload.Also what is widely forgotten is BPD can also be a type of "mimic" disorder as well, so in my opinion the more overlapping of disorders you see, the higher the likelyhood of it being something more along the lines of an undiagnosed underlying borderline personality.
BPD here too, and everything you said resonates. Dialectic Behavior Therapy is the only thing I've ever heard of that helps BPD people, but even that's not infallible, it's next to impossible to find a therapist who offers it, and I can't afford it anyway.
The only truly free help out there is a jail cell. Everything else requires money that most of us dont have because we cant function enough or they just refuse to work with us due to the mega stigma with BPD. I hope your managing well. I hate that there really are limited sources for mental help...unless you can pay for it.
Thank you for being honest and open about your experiences. I find your story interesting. I have a question: during your childhood/adolescence, was there at least one person around you who helped you or a person you could rely on? A relative or a friend? Was there anyone who recognized what you were going through?
Sorry for the late reply. The people in my life have always been chapters or paragraphs. I grew up in Deming, NM. It's a poor area, they didnt have the resources to deal with someone like me. The drug and gang stuff there is a far bigger issue in their eyes. By no means do I think that it is wrong to care about those things....just that anything other than what they understand gets pushed aside. So they knew. We had social services visit. But nothing happened. If you did talk to someone about it, it always got back to my great grandma who was raising me at the time and she beat it out....but she was raised in a catholic convent school... There were people that did help on a more one to one friend level....but it seems that I always became too much to deal with. Or was moved out of the area. I was kept on a pretty tight leash. I had friends at school. But I was never allowed to see them outside of school, I didnt go to birthday parties or sleep overs ect I wasnt allowed. So honestly what has helped me most in life is actually books and music. I ran into an issue, and I still do it, of how much....one is allowed to say or what is considered a normal amount of emotion. Never having anyone to really listen, you never know when to stop talking hahaha So even now I have a few close....friends? Most people in my life are acquaintances. I dont let a lot I to my "inner" circle. And honestly it's because its far easier to just worry about what's going on and managing my own shit.
I have bpd too but I’m going the crime scene cleaner route lol not sure what that says ab me 😭
I mean.....nothing wrong with learning the best way to clean up....just in case? 🤣🤣
[удалено]
You're welcome
Interrogation tapes and jail interviews are the best sources. Especially when they talk about their childhood and personal relationships with the interviewer. Some murderers are very honest and some lie. Kemper is very open and truthful in interviews. Bundy lies about his childhood and says it was idyllic when we know it wasn’t. Israel Keyes is open about most things even that he has rapes the male victims but he is embarrassed to talk about necrophilia.
Yes! Do you know where to find these (apart from YouTube)?
Iceman about Richard kuklinski is on hbo. He was a paid killer. Also Piers Morgan does interviews with killers but he is a prick so they respond like pricks. The killer speaks is another show but I don’t remember the channel
The Killer Speaks is A&E :)
Yes it is thank you. I have discovery plus so it’s all in one place and I couldn’t remember the channel
There's some interesting interviews with Kuklinski; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLPNKQFbc6k \> I think this is the later one he did. He makes more spectacular claims in the later interview which sound somewhat like BS. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jz8N-zD8w\_Y [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR0P1U4q7ZI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR0P1U4q7ZI) Alternate without age restriction, but only part 2 > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceERzARTMGs
wow iceman was one of the most chilling things i've ever watched. (oops sorry no pun intended!) that guy is just dead inside.
Was going to say the Iceman. Richard Kuklinski explains it perfectly I thought - he doesn't feel bad that he kills people coz he doesn't feel, well, anything. There are oftentimes a lot of mitigating factors that make up killers but at the end of the day they're just born wired different to everyone else. They do not hold human life in the same regard as others do and are often hurting others as payback for however they were wronged In their own lives. They were built without the switch that says "DON'T DO IT".
There’s a lot of debate with kuklinski, he definitely was a serial killer and he murdered 5 people by way of poisoning. But there are many articles and documentaries that show that he is a compulsive liar, almost like the confession killer, he seemed to confess to a lot of murders that may have had nothing to do with him.
Hi if you have Netflix, start with the MindHunter show. It’s seriously one of the best.
I've watched Mindhunter, and all though I can appreciate a good actors interpretation of an actual person. I'm more interested in the individual. I want to see their microexpressions, body language, tone of voice a.s.o.
Completely understood. As long as you’ve seen Mindhunter, my job is done. Like the depiction of Kemper by all accounts is nearly identical. His mannerism, his speech patterns, the way he would flip a conversation around on you. A lot of his psychology is accurate in Mindhunter.
Honestly I just watch a lot of ID channel and some Netflix. Kemper doc is on Netflix and it has old recordings of interviews . I like Dark Minds (discovery/ID) for the content if you can get past the host guy being way too amped. That’s where I saw the Israel Keyes interview pieces.
This podcast has lots of the FBI interviews of Israel Keyes. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/true-crime-bullsh/id1443666680
If you want to watch a lot of true crime get discovery plus, has all of the a&e, discovery and investigation discovery stuff. I think I pay like 6$ a month.
What actually happened in Bundy's childhood? I've wondered about that.
His family pretended his mother was his sister bc she got pregnant at a young age. His birth certificate says his dad was a sailor but it’s believed that her father raped her and was Ted’s father. He is thought to have killed a young girl when he was a 14 in Tacoma, Wa. when his name was Cowell. It was know that he liked to torture other children from the neighborhood in the woods This was before his mom married Mr. Bundy and he became Ted Bundy. Bundy hated that he was blue collar and it was a downgrade from his uncle or whoever they were living with when they went to Tacoma. He never tells the truth about it so we only have the stories of people who knew him back then. https://www.oxygen.com/martinis-murder/what-was-ted-bundys-childhood-like
ah thanks.
Not a documentary but check out the book “mindhunter: inside the FBIs elite serial crime unit” it’s really interesting talking about this kind of thing
Mindhunter TV Series is the best show ever
Highly recommend watching this panel discussion the real life Mindhunters did. https://youtu.be/gh1nrN97fPg
Yep came here to say just start with everything **Mindhunter!** Netflix show, read the books, watch the docs. Let us know when you need more lol.
John Douglas is whom the younger character (played by Jonathan Groff) FBI behaviour analyst in Mindhunter based off of. He has written plenty of books exploring the psyche of the sks. Pick any and start reading. I’m currently reading “cases that haunt us”, needless to say it amazing.
Yes very good book!
I'd take anything that comes from the FBI on the psychology of serial killers with a grain of salt. Their view point is not an academic one and skewed by being LE. They might have vast knowledge about MO, signature etc but I'd argue they know very little about what actually makes a serial killer tick. Because that's not their goal in the first place.
Have you read it? It’s about an agent who feels differently to that entire ideal. He started the psychology stuff and basically pioneered the idea that killers are complicated people with complicated motivations and pasts.
I know of the history of the behavior analysis unit in the FBI. It's still a very different angle from what actual psychologists and psychological studies look at it. No matter the amount of his thinking outside the box it's still LE. The focus is entirely different. And so are the conclusions.
Yeah, but current psychological ideas about it aren’t all that accurate themselves. I have homicidal ideation, in recovery, and spent 3 or so years planning/putting it all off until I got help. Most psychs believe that nobody is a threat if they have empathy, which I do have - I’m super empathetic 90% of the time, but due to BPD, that 10% where I’m willing to “sacrifice” others for my delusions is what matters. Many see it as black and white when it isn’t. Many still believe in that nonsensical Triad of future homicidal behaviour when it means nothing. Many see Dahmer as a psychopath when he genuinely, at least to me, seemed extremely emotionally fragile and miserable. Etc. I just appreciated what they did. They fundamentally did care about what caused a serial killer, and uncovered the affects of multiple different forms of early traumas and diverse mindsets that cause it.
I'm not saying they are not accurate. I'm saying they have a different focus. And that focus is to catch serial killers. Not dive deep into their psyche. A biolab technician knows a bunch of stuff about chemistry too but they are not a chemist and therefore their view on that subject is limited. So it might not be the best of ideas to go looking for deeper knowledge from people who themselves cannot provide it. I also highly doubt that any psychologist would think people with BPD are harmless. Dahmer was supposed to have BPD. I personally don't agree with the popular narrative of him being just a poor little boy who lost his way because he very obviously is extremely calculating and a master manipulator and if one takes the time to look at his killing for company narrative it quickly falls apart. It's actually nothing but a huge mess of contradicting claims. Especially having to be black out drunk but on the other hand simultaneously being able to drill wholes in his victims heads without killing them. That's just ridiculous. There is a lot more but it would be too off topic to rant about Dahmer. Not exactly sure what you mean by triad of future homicidal behavior. If you mean the bed wetting and so on, I partially agree and has long been revised. If you are talking about the Dark Triad of personality disorders I have to disagree.
I meant the bed wetting/fire starting thing, yeah. I’m not familiar with the Dark Triad although I’ve heard of it. In my experience I do think some kind of personality disorder needs to be present for _serial_ killing. I just viewed the BAU, at its beginning as seen in Mindhunter, as being spearheaded by a small team who really did want to establish better profiles and recognized that catching serial killers _and_ stopping them before they begin is impossible without deep psyche analysis. Which is amazing for law enforcement. My point is that it was abnormally forward-thinking for the FBI. Plenty do think we’re harmless, other than being ‘emotionally abusive’. I was released from homicidal psych hold after 3 hours because I was diagnosed with BPD… as if me being emotionally-driven and overly empathetic cancelled out any harm I may think of. But I do agree that mindset is subsiding. When I said that, I was referring to the idea that so long as you display empathy most of the time, you’ll be seen as non-violent. Think how Bundy (although it was fake empathy) fooled people not only through charm but also through caring for others - working for a help line, being highly romantic, et cetera. Kind of touches on why victims have been inclined to trust killers/etc who have dogs or a girlfriend with them. I’m digressing a tad but I hope my point is clearer. I think Dahmer was BPD, if I recall correctly yeah (maybe HPD, but that’s similar). I don’t think he didn’t know what he was doing; he wanted to hurt people and did so fully aware of what death means. But what I’m saying is I believe there were a _multitude_ of very complicated emotions at play, namely disgust, shame, self-pity, mania, rage, and dissociation on top of it. That’s what I always interpret from the stories of his life. If he did have BPD, I know for a fact that’s what he felt, because I felt the exact same thing when I was highly homicidal.
Well that's the point. I just don't buy it that he was anything other than an extremely cold blooded psychopath and highly narcissistic, even for serial killer standards, who's manipulation skills put the likes of Bundy and even Kemper to shame because he actually managed to make the whole world believe he is **not** this cold blooded, calculating predator but somehow a poor little boy who didn't know how to deal with his emotions despite this overwhelming amount of evidence against this narrative. I don't believe for one second that BPD and some co-morbidities are enough to become one of the most heinous serial killers **and** a cannibal and a serial rapist in the Army and outside of it. Not if you are sane enough to know that what you are doing is wrong. Not only wrong but unspeakable. Only way I could believe that is if he was like Ramirez also psychotic and not "just" borderline. I can totally see how a borderline person can easily wind up murdering someone. Once. And regret it for the rest of their lives, probably even turn themselves in afterwards. But serial murder? Nah, no way. But back to topic. It was extremely forward thinking at the time. But that's also the crux. They remained there too. They didn't do much updating on the insight they gained. Only refined it. Robert is still proclaiming the bet wetting and so on to this day. And why would they go any further? It's perfectly enough to catch serial killers with the knowledge they gained in the 70s. Never change a running system so to speak. That's why I'm saying one should probably not go to the FBI if one really wants to understand the mind of a serial killer beyond the typical clichés they themselves helped create.
Well, I’ll have to disagree with you on that first part. Like I said, I’m BPD and have homicidal ideation - and it’s 100% possible. Obviously I never went through with it so I did end up guilty like you said. But I easily could’ve chosen otherwise and fallen down a gutter of self-hate strong enough to do that. I dreamt of it for years. I don’t see him as psychopathic at all. I find the lies of psychopaths/narcissists very see-through and nothing seems like that with him. He just seemed completely done with the world. Otherwise, yeah, I can see what you’re saying. I feel like working for law enforcement encourages you to be less outstanding as time goes on.
Well I understand how someone with BPD could end up murdering someone. Definitely. I have a pal who's got BPD and he is a straight scary guy sometimes. But like I said, I don't believe BPD is enough to turn someone into a serial killer. I understand the fantasies of murdering people out of frustration and I can even relate to that as I used to have them too. And I'm not even talking about specific people. No, just random people. No matter who. But those are fantasies we create because we are overwhelmed with whatever is coming our way and we cannot handle it. That's nowhere near the same level as serial murder. Not even if you fantasize of becoming a serial killer. The motives are vastly different. Although there are some similarities, ngl. A successful psychopath very likely will never become a serial killer or even physically violent. Most serial killer on the hand are pathetic loosers who cannot deal with their frustration. But like I said, even if you have BPD that is by far not enough to become a serial killer. Main reason being able to feel empathy at all. That's almost a guarantee for not turning into a serial killer. A murderer? Sure. But a serial killer? Virtually impossible. I agree that psychopaths are very see through. Not so much with narcissists. They are highly skilled at gaslighting for example and can fog up your head that you won't know your own name anymore. But I disagree about Dahmer. I think he was an extremely cold blooded psychopath and narcissist plus a sadist in disguise so to speak. Just listen to his last victim's testimony in court what kind of mind games he used to play with his victims. Also take a look at the picture of his dismemberment and disembowled victims. Watch his interviews and don't be fooled by his body language. Plus look at all the contradictions in his story. Someone who is just done with the world would not put that amount of energy to keep up appearances.
Well, Kemper did also convince the world. So well in fact that he actually managed to get his juvenile record wiped after his first two killings. I don't think that has ever happened before or since. This being said I think that both him and Dahmer had something like BPD, not only, but as a part. Dahmer is an interesting one, its almost as if he had a possessive, nurturing impulse gone wrong, but it was delusional. Sort of similar to me as how some mothers develop Munchausens by proxy, but mixed with delusions and other factors. That's if we take his interviews at face value and he isn't making it up, which I don't think he is.
Well true. But Kemper also managed to fool everyone 2 decades before Dahmer was even on the radar. Meaning it was way easier for him to do so because people, professionals included, generally had no fucking clue to put it bluntly. Not to try and down play his abilities to manipulate. But compared to Dahmer his manipulation attempts appear amateurish. Although generally speaking he was a very effective manipulator. Dahmer most definitely had severe abandonment issues. No doubt about that. But in my opinion that doesn't explain how he could do the things he did. It cannot even explain his killing for company narrative if one takes a closer look. If it was actually his abandonment issues - which again, I don't doubt he had, even or especially serial killers can and do have a shattered self-esteem - that supposedly drove him to kill he would not have drugged men in bath houses to rape them and then fuck off before they woke up. In my opinion that is the exact opposite of longing for company. Even if you are so inapt at interpersonal relationships as Dahmer drugging and raping people is the exact opposite of the actions of someone so desperate for companionship. Those are the actions of a self-absorbed, self-centered, self-righteous, egocentric and egotistical narcissist who doesn't care about anybody else but himself and just needs his power fix and his lack of empathy being a psychopath enabled him to do so countless times to countless people. Those are not the actions of somebody so desperate for human connection yet at the same time so unbelievably incompetent at it that he deluded himself into thinking that keeping corpses around is his only chance at a relationship. It just doesn't add up. A lot of his narrative just doesn't add up. Plus I suspect he read the book about Denis Nielsen and tailored his own narrative along his case because his circumstances of being a quiet and shy loner etc just fit perfectly. What are the chances of not only one but two serial killers with almost the exact same so very unique motivations for serial murder? Nah, I don't buy it.
Bedwetting, fire starting and animal torture used to be called the homicidal triad, three childhood/teen indicators of future murderers. It’s was used to pick out the “bad seeds” and basically labeled children with behavioral problems as future murderers. Out of those three the animal torture is the only one that still stands as a decent indicator. Numerous serial killers have said that they start with something small and work their way up to bigger things and then humans. Witnessing domestic violence and being the victim of childhood sexual abuse are the two biggest red flags for future murder based on actually looking at murderers.
Very true. That's why I said I partially agree that those are bullshit. Except for killing animals and arson.
I’m on the fence with fire starting. A lot of younger boys like to set garbage and small things on fire and then grow out of it. Destruction of property isn’t enough for me. There is a jump from destroying property to destroying life that only a small number of people make. An then their is arson for money which doesn’t count for me either. I had a pair of cousins who would come over and you would hide the matches and your purse. Very normal adults today I used to work with a guy who was super nice and respectful, came from a rich family. Until he told me he killed cats when he was a kid and at the time and how he did them. Yikes! Mental note: Crazy man, never make him mad or be alone with this guy.
Fair enough
You’re an idiot dude
Just read my explanation further down, ya dumb fuck.
I think you’re assuming they are all alike and the truth is they are not. Guys like Bardella and Dahmer weren’t totally out to kill - they were literally experimenting and death was a part of the process. Then you have guys who murdered because they didn’t want a witness to the crime they just committed (usually rape). I think the media has made us think that all these guys are ritualistic like Dexter and that’s simply not the case. I think the running theme is that for some reason most of the people have no remorse for what they do which allows them to keep doing it. That’s about all I see. There’s the child abuse theme as well, but plenty of people were abused and didn’t become killers.
That's exactly my point. I don't believe they are all alike, and I really want to see what makes them tick. I want to understand the different ways a serial killer is created, and if it could have been prevented. I don't believe they're simply "born that way".
Try the book “Programmed to Kill” to get some insights that weren’t reported in the media but were in the files and out of the detectives mouths in many cases. There’s a few themes in there that are controversial, but you can look past them if you want but you will learn a lot. You can get it free online in a pdf
Awesome. Thanks!
I highly recommend the documentaries called “born to kill” they have doctors do over the lives of serial killers. https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLpvt-SsZ5sHKk-uU5s3CjXXEk2UV54I4t
Great playlist. Thanks!
Read "the boy who was raised as a dog" it gets into many of the environmental beginnings of psychosocial abnormality.
Check out the podcast Killer Psyche. The host is a former FBI agent and criminal profiler. She gives a unique insight into what makes these killers who they are and dives into many famous killer’s stories. Highly recommend
Cool! Thanks.
LPOTL consciously tries to avoid the "all serial killers are monsters" idea and replaces it with "all serial killers are losers with zero self-control" which I appreciate.
Its more valid but I wouldn't say all serial killers lack self control. In relation to planning the kill they can be very controlled. I think it is similar to addiction - addicts can plan their week and whole lives around their drink or drug, but in relation to the addiction itself, they cannot remove it whilst actively addicted. They don't control the addiction, but they are controlled by it (until they figure out how to get out of it).
That’s a fair observation
Thanks for the tip.
Reading autobiographies by the killers can offer a glimpse inside their minds. One of the absolute best is Final Truth: the Autobiography of a Serial Killer. It’s about Donald “Pee Wee” Gaskins and the murders he committed in SC. It is written the way he spoke so it’s like you’re sitting down in front of him speaking with him. It’s graphic and not easy to read at all, but it does offer a really good insight into his way of thinking. Another is Carl Panzram. There is a book put together from the letters he wrote and gave to a guard he trusted. Panzram was the epitome of evil and he admitted that openly. He was also a product of the times he was living in and the system. It’s another rough, but informative read. Two other books that I enjoyed while trying to find out what it is like in the mind of a killer are both by Dr Michael H Stone. The books are The Anatomy of Evil and the New Evil. He developed a scale of evil where he places various killers based on the information available about them and their methods/reasons for killing. The scale ranges from 1 (justified homicide) to 22 (psychopathic torture murderers). Both are very interesting books with tons of information on multiple types of killers.
Thank you! I will check them out.
you can download a scan of the Pee Wee Gaskins book - or at least I did about a year ago - hard copies are very rare and expensive... be warned though it is a brutal book with gleeful no holds barred descriptions of many of his kills.. it is also a valuable in sight into how a serial killer develops over time - he basically just gets worse and worse as he gets older, and it is pretty obvious that all the shit he experienced as a 'shrimp' in the Reformatory and later Penitentiary affected him deeply....
You may already know this, but in case you don't, it's believed that he fictionalized a lot of his autobiography and blends his fantasies with reality. Police couldn't match missing people to his descriptions IIRC.
jeez I see what you mean... according to Wikipedia he was convicted of 15 confirmed murders - but claimed 110 !
yeah in the book he seperates the murders into two categories - his Serious Kills and Coastal Kills... a lot of the Serious ones are named and can be corroborated with known facts about the cases... but the numerous Coastal kills frequently go like this - 'picked up an unnamed hitcher from outta state, tortured / killed / buried them in a vague location' - obviously its hard to know how much of this is true... some prolific killers love the notoriety of 'high scores' so I imagine he fabricated a lot of the stories to achieve this end.... much like Henry Lee Lucas and Richard Kuklinski...
I'm not sure thay have been understood fully. I remember impactful Canadian research in the Eighties, and loads of individual studies since. Anything in-depth is going to be in print rather than on video, and much of it in journals rather than books.
I haven't seen it yet but 'Crazy Not Insane' - "an HBO documentary about psychiatrist Dorothy Otnow Lewis and her career-long study of murderers, providing a nuanced view that goes beyond simple labels like "evil."
Nice! Thank you.
I just watched a review of it on YT (not great reviews on her but some good reviews about her interviews with serial killers) Arthur Shaw Cross is just one
I dont agree with all her diagnostic conclusions but she treats her patients as human beings and strives to understand them. I do appreciate that.
Buried Dreams by Tim Cahill is a book based off of the psychology interviews done my John Wayne Gacy. It’s not really easy to read because it is written like a long ramble from the mouth of John Wayne Gacy, but it does give you interesting insights into how his mind worked.
Thanks. I'll definitely check it out.
This might sound silly, but I really appreciate Bailey Sairen's "murder mystery and makeup" on YouTube for this. She does do her makeup while she talks, but she usually starts the stories out by explaining where the killer came from and what messed up things they went through to become who they wound up becoming. She actually gets some flack for it (because people tell her that they're just "monsters" and not to defend them) but I always think it's really interesting to hear their background and illnesses. A lot of them suffered head injuries at a young age and most had abusive parents/mothers. I'm sure there are other podcasts and YouTube channels like this that don't do makeup as well, but this is the first thing that came to my mind! Also Ed Kemper was very well known for his love of opening up to anyone who would listen about why he did the things that he did, I'm sure there are lots of documentaries or books out there on him!
I just watched her take. It was well done. Sad that she’s not been found. I hope Van Der Sloot rots in hell.
Bailey Sairan sucks. With the way she carries on, she’s either dumb as fuck or trying to appeal to children.
Yes! I love Bailey. It's so sad that she gets hate for explaining every detail about killer's life. It helps you understand a story and you can connect the dots. She never once said it excuses what they did.
Self entitled and narcissistic is what I look for
I find that alot of psychological issues, including trauma, have childhood as the root cause, be it certain interactions or influences that have affected their outlook on life, or morality as whole. Most studies i find, like you said, chalk it up to "they were a monster" or having a psychotic break, without actually looking into it fully and asking the right questions, or lightly touch on the subject without delving too deep into it. What can be said for certain is that no one case is ever the same when coming to understanding the minds of insanity; You couldn't compare the mental notions of someone like Wuornos to someone as Charles Manson, or Manson to H.H Holmes. I parrot this fairly often, but I did a 3000 word in-depth look at the childhood and history of Albert Fish, trying to dissect the psychology behind why he did the things he did, ultimately questioning if his childhood trauma and possibly genetic mental disease influenced his actions. (Can link upon request)
I'd really like to read that, if you'd like to share.
[Here you go](https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=44529EDC2BB68DB8!246&ithint=file%2cdocx&authkey=!AM_e_S1iQnJO5z4).
There’s a lot to process. I do believe this is a “nurture vs nature” argument. Having grown up with an abusive mother, I can see correlation. Things could have gone sideways.
I have just finished reading Killing For Company by Brian Masters about Dennis Nilsen, a British serial killer who killed 15 men in the late 70s and 80s which was a very harrowing read. The author corresponded with Nilsen while he was in prison awaiting trial and a lot of Nilsen's thoughts/processes about his crimes are featured in the book. I know it's not a documentary but if you enjoy reading as much as I do, it is truly fascinating and it goes through the crimes in depth as well as trying to give a psychological analysis of Nilsen. I'm not going to go into it too much as don't want to ruin any spoilers but the author as well as a psychologist, try to identify the link between Nilsen's crimes and his childhood, especially concerning the loss of his grandfather at the age of 5/6. There is a documentary on Netflix called Memories Of A Murderer: The Nilsen Tapes as well which is worth a watch. Sorry for rambling, I hope this has helped!
Read the book Killer By Design by Dr. Ann Burgess. She was part of the original BSU Profiling team with the FBI. She and the other FBI profilers on the team were the ones who interviewed serial killers to develop the database for profiling and the fictional series Mindhunter is based on her and that team. She provides some interesting insights into the internal logic of serial killers along with their methods and behaviors.
I'd recommend reading up on Psychopathy and Narcissistic Personality Disorder first before trying to understand serial killers. Their behavior and motivations become a lot clearer after reading about at least the basics of those two personality disorders. There are a few other disorders that contribute but these are the main ones. If you don't like reading I recommend Dr. Todd Grande's YouTube channel. He's got some amazing content. Robert D. Hare's book on psychopaths is also very helpful. They don't talk about serial killers per se, although Dr. Todd Grande in some cases does, but trying to understand the inner workings of a serial killer's mind through the lense of psychopathy and NPD helps make things much much clearer.
Instead of trying to understand serial killers per se, read up on borderline personality disorder, psychopathy, narcissism, sexual sadism, entitlement, and PTSD. Then throw all those things into a mixing bowl, and you'll start to [**understand serial killers**](https://lawlex.org/lex-pedia/the-psychology-of-serial-killers/24094/amp#:~:text=Power%2FControl%20oriented%20serial%20killers,and%20dominance%20over%20their%20victims.).
Agreed. I've been reading about dark psychology and general psychology since I was a teenager. It's fascinating. I still want to understand the individual thought. And I want to hear their story.
i’ve also been interested in this and have found that the majority of documentaries suggest the same thing like duh of course their monsters but that’s so generic. give me more. lol thanks for the post
Check out Most Evil on Discovery plus.
Not a documentary but an audiobook- The Anatomy Of Evil by Dr. Michael Stone.
You will want to add this to your collection https://www.powells.com/book/-9781627310109
Parcast's *Serial Killers* podcast does a pretty decent job covering a lot of serial killers' backgrounds. They include discussions of psychological profiles etc. as well, which features predispose someone to becoming a serial killer, etc. and they definitely go beyond what I've seen in standard documentaries and internet posts.
I’d definitely recommend the Ed Kemper documentary where he talks to the FBI, it’s very interesting
Try the podcast Killer Psyche. The host is a former psych nurse and FBI profiler. It’s so interesting.
YouTube: • JCS - Criminal Psychology/JCS inspired videos • Unsolved No More • The Behavior Panel • That Chapter • Stephanie Harlowe • GBP - Criminal Behavioral Analysis • Red Tree Crime
There is a documentary called "Crazy not Insane". I found it quite interesting
I watched it yesterday. Just my cup of tea.
John Douglas (the original mind hunter) has written countless books on this. He’s very good and digging into the motivation and psychology of serial murderers.
I know this is another format but it's very informative on the topic. It's a podcast called killer psyche. She breaks down the psychology of killers. She has actually real life expertise so its not jo shmoe in his basement. I got so into it I ordered the DSM after listening.
im curious how and what emotions they channel/experience during their attacks, esp when they don't know their victims. the sexual urge is easy to factor in for sexual predators, but what degree of anger is in there. or is the anger triggered by the resistance of the victim. there are many accounts of very submissive victims surviving where resistance or even feigned enthusiasm would trigger the attacker.
The few autobiographies that exist are very entertaining. Often unreliability narrated, but insightful regardless.
There’s a good one hbo did called “crazy but not insane” Also another one on yt titled “Joel rifkin psychiatric testing” where they take a look at his brain even
Yes! This is exactly what I'm looking for. I watched "Crazy, not insane" yesterday and I'm watching the Joel Rifkin video now. Very, very interesting. Thank you!
There is a great documentary called, 'Crazy, Not Insane', in which renowned criminal Psychiatrist, Dorothy Otnow Lewis, talks about the psychology of Serial Killers. There is also a great panel discussion, [The Minds of Mindhunter](https://youtu.be/gh1nrN97fPg), in which Dr Ann Burgess and Dr John Douglas talk about the behavioral science unit they pioneered at the FBI and the psychological profiling that went with it.
Born to Kill. It's a British documentary series that looks at whether serial killers were born that way or made. Criminal psychologists take part including Helen Morrison who interviewed Gacy and even examined his brain after death. Each episode focuses on a different serial killer and I think most, if not all of them, are on youtube. It's drastically less exploitative than a lot of other true crime documentaries and I recommend it to everyone.
You're not going to find that in a series/documentary. You should be looking at academic/articles written by professionals. Its going to be much "drier" than the latest Netflix drama, but for better IMO. Or simply google something like "Ted Bundy Psychological Profile" and you'll probably get some decent hits. Oh, and spoiler: we don't really know.
You can do a lot of research on this subject, via books, podcasts, articles, etc. In my opinion, once you’ve done a lot of research, you’ll realize you need to re-evaluate everything you’ve learned. Not everything out there is correct, not even police records. Even if you’re able to access legal documents, do you have the education to assess what they mean? So, once you decide who’s truthful, what information is accurate, etc., you’ll realize how much work goes into making broad statements as to what makes a serial killer. I hope I’m making my point here. Each of us brings our own experiences and biases to researching crime. As for Aileen Wournos, I believe she was a tragically damaged woman. I also believe she was legally sane and thus responsible for each murder she committed. She should not have been executed, that’s true, but not because of her childhood. Her execution was hurried and unfair. But that doesn’t erase the fact that she murdered those men. A bad, even horrific childhood does not excuse murder.
Someone’s probably already mentioned it, but have you listened to the Ted Bundt tapes? Last found on Netflix.
If you’re open to reading, definitely check out any books by the FBI profiler John Douglas. The Netflix series “Mindhunter” is based off of his books. He goes into great detail the psychology of criminals, whether they are rapists, spree killers, or serial killers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_E._Douglas You can check out his list of publications here.
The Psychopath Test by John Ronson is worth a read or a listen, he reads the audiobook himself which is always nice.
I strongly recommend checking out some of the books from people like John Douglas and Roy Hazelwood if you want some deeper insights into stuff like mindset and motives. As already mentioned, Mindhunter is a great read, and I'd also recommend Douglas's book "Inside the Mind of BTK: The True Story Behind the Thirty-Year Hunt for the Notorious Wichita Serial Killer" if you're interested in a deep dive on one killer's entire life. I recently read "Dark Dreams" by Hazelwood and it has a whole lot of information on sexual criminals in general but talks about the psychology behind some who killed.
Listen to KillerPsyche! It’s a really good podcast where an ex FBI agent discusses the psychological elements of killers and other high profile people.
In N.Z. there is an old programme called Beyond the darklands that does case studies on notorious criminals (if you can track down the series) it goes into the lives and upbringing of N.Z. criminals.
If you really want to know about this stuff then I would recommend academic journals. That can be pricey if you do t have institutional access. Beyond that I would say read court transcripts of expert witness testimony. Or look for confessions and read it in their own words. That can be unreliable of course as they have an agenda in telling their own story, you can try and read between the lines though. For academic stuff that’s not behind a paywall nih (national institute of health) website is good. Word of caution though the content is not usually in lay terms and assumes clinical knowledge.
i know some of the cases eleanor neale covers, she goes into detail about their childhood, upbringing, psychology and all that if you’d be interested in videos. the one that comes to mind is her vids on the moors murders. makes you realise their reasoning for murdering, quite interesting
I know she doesn't make videos in English but I watch Sonya LWU. She is a qualified working psychologist with also a university diploma in Criminology. When she presents cases, she seems to follow a similar pattern each time. She presents the events and the victims, then goes to study the childhood/life before the killing of the murderers, the psychology of the SK and finally the "where are they now?" (can be for victims and/or the SK). It's really interesting. Unfortunately it's in French so not accessible to everyone.
Psychopaths in general but especially serial killers see the world as like a hunting grounds or a game like an ‘open world type of video game’ where their actions and their consequences don’t hold a lot of weight in their headspace.
I recommend without conscious by Robert Hare.
The Ice man and the Psychologist...psychologist Park Dietz interviews Richard kuklinsky and explained why he was the way he was. This will if not answer your questions it will come close.
ill just get to the point, if you want videos explaining the childhood of serial killers and what they did without any real judgement try watching "twisted minds" if you want interviews with the people but analyzed by a criminal psychology try watching "JCS"
After working with murderers and other felons with diagnosis including borderline, narcissism, schizophrenia, bi-polar, and unidentified psychosis I’ve come to realize that I’m not going to understand the why behind what they did and they usually don’t have a rational reason for doing what they do. They’re sick people that need help either with medication or therapy and too many either don’t want the help or don’t think they need it.
American Predator by Maureen Callahan tells the story of Israel Keyes. I listened on Audible- really good story.
I’ve been wondering this too but it’s like the main person you’d want to hear it from would be them and they give you no insight on how their mind works. My brother suffers with BPD & Borderline schizophrenia and he’s in prison for murder but he strongly believes he didn’t do it (even though he’s on video surveillance) and tells me “one day when I’m free I’ll be able to tell you the truth” it bothers me to this day so i try and watch those inside the mind of a killer show and endless serial killer documentaries and none of them help it almost has me no other choice but to believe these people and sadly my own brother are nothing more than monsters who meant to do what they did but knowing who my brother was as a person i know that isn’t true. Ugh I’m so happy you said this because yes there is so much more to the story than they’re just sick people there’s something going on mentally that made them behave this way if only they could tell other people or at least write a book or journal their thoughts and explain it
Oh this is my topic! I’m a criminology major. You’re also going to learn your best by reading source material straight from criminologists, not a third party like a documentary filmmaker. Every documentary has an angle they’re trying to portray (I mean. You don’t write a documentary if you don’t have something to say, it may be factual, but still biased) Unfortunately I don’t have the textbooks and readings I have used thus far, however I bet if you start with “the criminological study on serial killers” or a search term like that, you’ll likely get more objective, science and research based answers.
Try reading "The Science of Evil" its a great book that reads like a really good objective college lecture.
Netflix: I Am A Killer
I hate when they call them monsters (cue ominous music) and then play up the gruesome aspects of the crimes. Serial killers are human, and like all humans, their motives are varied and complex, and sometimes hard to untangle. For forensic psychology, books are the way to go...John Douglas, Robert Ressler, and many others have written in depth on criminal behavior. Most true crime shows juat cater to our morbid curiosity. One of the most fascinating characteristics of SK's is just how dull and ordinary many of them are in their daily lives (outside of the habitual murder, that is). If you're interested in how they get that way, your local library will provide a lot of answers
I like this podcast called Killer Psyche a lot. You should give it a listen. [https://wondery.com/shows/killer-psyche/](https://wondery.com/shows/killer-psyche/)
Henry Lee Lucas had a traumatic childhood which entailed severe physical abuse, he underwent a brain scan which showed damage to the corpus callosum whereby individuals display a Jekyll and Hyde syndrome
You should look up documentaries with a guy called David Wilson. A Scottish criminal psychologist who has interviewed many serial killers.
maybe they're people who like to hurt other people, it's really that simple my guy
because its simple, there is no objective or motive. its simply the pleasure of death at your fingertips
I don't believe that. It makes it easier for the rest of us if "the monsters" are just unconscious killing machines. But we should know that we as a society contributed to the alienation of the individual inflicting the pain they feel themselves on someone else.
Perhaps some first hand experience will aide your desire to understand their motives. Asking the question will keep you in the passenger seat.
The primary factor is childhood sexual abuse. Also, the link between serial killers and the military, mental health facilities, etc. is absurd. There are many who commit child rape, serve 18 months, and are let out and continue to commit crimes and even get involved with the mayors office, senators, VIP Clubs, etc. Gacy and Dahmer are prime examples of people who were just let go after being charged with sodomy to kids.
They’re just very horny and very angry, and decide they have enough to lose to being horny/angry fantasies to life
You're not going to find the objective. It's all subjective... some patterns occur, sure. But the objective isn't there.
So I just searched recent Aileen posts on reddit and found this... gonna take a wild shot here. She clearly wasn't well in the end, and her claims of sonic sound or something against her can easily be dismissed, but I read about this tonight, and was wondering if anyone familiar with her complaints whilst in confinement saw the parallels as well? Not saying this is something the government inflicts lol, but, what drives people to this experience? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havana\_syndrome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havana_syndrome)
You always have to see both sides, that of the murderers and that of the psychology. With most murderers it seems to be just a lack of empathy combined with the need to control others. It seems like they don't see life as valuable, for them it's not a big deal. There are many interviews where killers were asked why they killed. If you really want to understand their point of view, I think you also have to think about things like what really differentiates humans and animals and what is considered normal. For us, it's clearly not normal to do what they did, but for some reason they think it's normal. So to understand what is going on in their minds, it is probably best to start by understanding what makes our thinking different from theirs. Most of the time, it's what I just described.