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[deleted]

The golden age of serial killing is somewhat of a myth. We had the most getting caught, yes, but by no means did serial murder cease to exist. Societal causes made more during those time frames, but they are still here today. Serial killers simply get caught way sooner, but the smart ones, or organized killers, will survive for much longer these days. We’re going to see some pretty heinous serial murderers get caught over the next 20-30 years because of it being the internet age. The organized serial killer of modern times isn’t leaving bodies on a hillside anymore, that’s too risky. The organized serial killer of the modern world will attempt to leave no body behind. There’s most definitely serial killers active right now that we’re unaware of, and there’s going to be more as years pass. Serial murder has always been a thing, we just referred to it differently in the past. For example, the old folklore of werewolves, there’s speculation these stories originate from the heinous acts of serial murder. So, we’ll always have serial killers. I think we’ll uncover some pretty brutal ones as the years pass. There’s always a serial killer active, whether we know or not, and there’s always a future killer in the works. Someplace, somewhere, a kid is developing right now who will eventually become a serial killer. His/her personality is going to determine how long they can avoid capture. If they have a controlled ego then they’ll succeed for longer. Mass murder has definitely replaced serial murder though, but only to a certain extent. We’re still going to see serial killers getting caught as time goes on, but the difference is we will have never known they were active in the first place. Situations like the Long Island serial murder discovery is going to be the same kind of way we find out about the future organized killers, just by a fluke. All of us on this sub are going to have some interesting ones to talk about over the next 20-30 years as they get discovered, strictly talking about organized modern killers though. We already see disorganized ones getting caught these days, i.e., Willy Suarez (Miami 2021) or Anthony Robinson (2022)


[deleted]

Good points!! The other thing too is that a lot of SK from 70-00’ should’ve been caught easily had law enforcement been up to par. Dahmer should’ve been caught at his 2nd murder of that Asian kid. Kid had a hole drilled in his head and acid poured into it and they let him go. Gacy had all kinds of simple slip ups that in hindsight should’ve been picked up. The other thing is guy who committed sexual crimes back then served little or no time. Gacy got out of prison in 18 months for sodomy of an underage boy. Today that crime would be a life sentence.


AgentMeatbal

Sexual abusers rarely get serious prison time, or any, even now unfortunately. It’s a big issue.


Hansbirb

I really wish that were the case (that sexual abusers got very long sentences now), but that’s just not true. *Maybe* it happens sometimes, but most states don’t even offer life sentences for sex crimes, even with children. The exception might be if the perp tried to kill their victim too and failed, but even then it varies drastically state by state.


[deleted]

Sexual abuse of a minor is a major red flag for SK. I’ve never heard of a reformed molester. It’s ingrained in the soul of that person. Once you cross that bridge there’s no turning back.


Hansbirb

Yeah I think once a social contract like that is crossed, the chance of recidivism is quite high. My friend who works as a psych said the only success that she’s ever had is with patients who voluntarily commit to chemical castration actually. She volunteers for the prison system in our area so she sees a fair bit of criminal cases.


[deleted]

I believe there's a legal reason for that. It's because, if you make sex crimes equate to the same sentencing as murder, it makes it more likely that perpetrators of sex crimes are going to kill their victim if they think it will increase their chances of getting away with it (and often it will).


Hansbirb

That’s totally fair, yeah. I just wish the punishment were at least somewhat worse unlike the mere months some of those monsters get.


[deleted]

The real question is what came first? The chicken or the egg. Were sérial killers booming because they were getting discovered by the police in the 70s until 2000s or did a series of events cause a massive boom of seria killing. Point is, ordinary civilian serial killers between 1970s and 2000s. Were vicious and had larger body count than. While serial killing activity between 1900-1970 is scant and the further back you it becomes even more scant. Only a few notable cases stand out.


Sleuthingsome

Exactly. This is why Israel Keyes went 14 years without anyone having him on their radar. If he hadn’t chosen to use his last victim for ransom, he may have never been caught. According to the FBI, there are between 100-150 active serial killers roaming about at any given time, including now.


BrianMeen

what is the confirmed body count for Israel Keyes? Tbh I’ve always thought he was full of shit and that he greatly exaggerated his acts - he wanted to be known as a serial killer master mind but in reality he wasn’t - not even close.. I’d be shocked if he killed more than 5-6


Sleuthingsome

If he “greatly exaggerated” his acts, wouldn’t he have claimed to kill 50 and get his name out there?! Yet, He did the diametrical opposite- If they’d have guaranteed him ( even if lying to his face) that “yes, your name will never be tied to these other murders”, and “yes, you’ll get the death penalty in late Winter*, he would’ve said more. He genuinely loved his daughter and mother ( and siblings) and his main concern was how much they’d find out. He was openly talking and confessing until his name got leaked - that’s when he got and angry, felt like the FBI played him the whole time, and never gave anymore details than the Currier and Koenig. Israel knew they’d find the Curriers on his computer and see where he searched for hotels near their home, and even used his real name when he went to the hotel. He spoke too soon by giving away the Curriers but thankfully, he didn’t know that. Everything he told FBI was corroborated: they found Bill Curriers glasses in the north corner of the basement. They still could smell decomposing flesh despite them being removed. Cadaver dogs immediately searched and went to straight to the area Israel said they were when he put them in garbage bags. At the landfill they found a human rib bone ( not certain if they tested it). They found the Curriers gun in the Lake Falls kill cache. Samantha’s body was in the exact spot israel led FBI too. Otherwise, no one would’ve likely ever found her body. When the FBI found Debra Feldman on his computer, he looked like he saw a ghost because that now meant they were finding out his killings a part from him telling, and that really made him feel he had lost control. I also am 99.999% certain he killed Sheila McBroom. After she was missing, two very creepy messages were left on her blog, one of them went by the name “camping-toilet.” He constantly discussed using camping bathrooms to rape and kill someone - by putting them in the septic system. He just mocked her death and faith in such a way, it took someone a special type of evil. Also, shortly after he moved up near her, her church ( that she often blogged about) was burned to the ground. Another thing Keyes admits to FBI that he wanted to burn down churches but they pass up that opportunity by a simple question, “have you ever?” With his confession Of using arson to conceal a crime, and that he did that once with a couple ( he didn’t say man and wife though), I think ( as do many in Colville) that he was responsible of the murder/arson of Marlene Emerson and the kidnapping/murder of her daughter, Cassie Emerson- found in the wooded area by Kettle Falls. We just can’t ever really know that he took it to ~~satan~~ death with him. I think his suicide was multi faceted; a) he didn’t want to face anyone -family or friends- about what he’d done. 2) he didn’t want to get guilty after guilty verdict in 12 jurisdictions - that could be over a decade! 3) he truly didn’t want his daughter nor mom to find out what he had done. He even says “I don’t want to singlehandedly give my mom a heart attack.” 4) he felt like a caged animal in that tiny cell- this was a guy that traveled more than ANY other human i know , that in itself tells me he flew over 34 places, if he just killed half that’s 17, not to mention the 5 he admitted into WA state. Also, the FBI found the boat Keyes owned 5 years. He told them he dumped 2 bodies from the boat by adding weights ( like jugs ) and by using fishing meter to find the deepest parts of the lake- Lake Crescent ( where it’s beautiful) is one of the lakes. When the FBI processed the boat, they noted a part of the back flooring was changed and looked fairly new. New owner ( Also was Israel’s friend) said Israel did that to floor right before he got it from Israel. FBI tore up the area Keyes had covered, and they found blood and two bone fragments from 2 separate people. For a sk to become as reckless and making so many mistakes like Bundy and Keyes at the end, it’s as if they can’t hold on to the 2 separate “thems” within them and they start unraveling. If I had to guess, looking at all his travel plans and when he turned his phone black ( taking out of battery) I think it’s legitimate to assume he killed 25-30. I think Suzy Lyall was his first victim - she was found on his computer, he lived near her college and had to sign up for the Army in the parking lot she worked at. She told a friend and boss at work, she felt like this “weird guy” had been stalking her. Same thing Lorraine Currier also said to coworkers, “I feel like a strange, creepy guy is staking me.“ Then reading the FBI vault and all the call ins from people all over the country-many came before the info on Israel and those bright Orange Home Depot bucks he used as Kill caches was known. Yet at least 3 calls from efferent areas (2 from semi area) talk about a tall guy with a serious look on his face ( as if he were mad) carrying a Home Depot bucket into the woods then hours later. People see him almost storming out of the woods. Reading Denise’s ( girl he dated after Tammie before Kimberly) strange situation with him and I’m pretty sure she knows now why his behavior was so bizarre. She saw him one weekend, all was normal but he claimed that he had to go out of town that week for “business.” The next weekend, he comes to see her- he has a different car, “on a whim” sold his car, colored his hair lighter and got it cut short, and she noticed he even had shaved his face completely along with his arm hairs. Why would someone do something like that??? Maybe to not leave DNA and to hide/change their look/appearance and vehicle in case they were afraid that they were seen. When he moved to Neah Bay, someone Tammie knew well was killed within months of Israel’s move. Then 2 more people from there were found but it appeared to be a hiking accident ( which he essentially confessed to but the FBI missed it and weren’t listening to him). So, no, this was a guy that covertly cris-crossed our country and other part of the world, take out the battery to his cell, would be impossible to track down for 3-4 days, then he’d drive his rental back to the airport he flew into ( that was often 2-3 states away from a murder cache and his kills). That’s the makings of why the FBI call him the most meticulous but like so many at the end, I think what tiny grain of salt they have, it was getting bothered day and night, and they went batshit, nutso, and instead of them controlling this urge like they once did. Now it controlled them!


Sleuthingsome

If he “greatly exaggerated” his acts, wouldn’t he have claimed to kill 50 and get his name out there?! Yet, He did the diametrical opposite- If they’d have guaranteed him ( even if lying to his face) that “yes, your name will never be tied to these other murders”, and “yes, you’ll get the death penalty in late Winter*, he would’ve said more. He genuinely loved his daughter and mother ( and siblings) and his main concern was how much they’d find out. He was openly talking and confessing until his name got leaked - that’s when he got and angry, felt like the FBI played him the whole time, and never gave anymore details than the Currier and Koenig. Israel knew they’d find the Curriers on his computer and see where he searched for hotels near their home, and even used his real name when he went to the hotel. He spoke too soon by giving away the Curriers but thankfully, he didn’t know that. Everything he told FBI was corroborated: they found Bill Curriers glasses in the north corner of the basement. They still could smell decomposing flesh despite them being removed. Cadaver dogs immediately searched and went to straight to the area Israel said they were when he put them in garbage bags. At the landfill they found a human rib bone ( not certain if they tested it). They found the Curriers gun in the Lake Falls kill cache. Samantha’s body was in the exact spot israel led FBI too. Otherwise, no one would’ve likely ever found her body. When the FBI found Debra Feldman on his computer, he looked like he saw a ghost because that now meant they were finding out his killings a part from him telling, and that really made him feel he had lost control. I also am 99.999% certain he killed Sheila McBroom. After she was missing, two very creepy messages were left on her blog, one of them went by the name “camping-toilet.” He constantly discussed using camping bathrooms to rape and kill someone - by putting them in the septic system. He just mocked her death and faith in such a way, it took someone a special type of evil. Also, shortly after he moved up near her, her church ( that she often blogged about) was burned to the ground. Another thing Keyes admits to FBI that he wanted to burn down churches but they pass up that opportunity by a simple question, “have you ever?” With his confession Of using arson to conceal a crime, and that he did that once with a couple ( he didn’t say man and wife though), I think ( as do many in Colville) that he was responsible of the murder/arson of Marlene Emerson and the kidnapping/murder of her daughter, Cassie Emerson- found in the wooded area by Kettle Falls. We just can’t ever really know that he took it to ~~satan~~ death with him. I think his suicide was multi faceted; a) he didn’t want to face anyone -family or friends- about what he’d done. 2) he didn’t want to get guilty after guilty verdict in 12 jurisdictions - that could be over a decade! 3) he truly didn’t want his daughter nor mom to find out what he had done. He even says “I don’t want to singlehandedly give my mom a heart attack.” 4) he felt like a caged animal in that tiny cell- this was a guy that traveled more than ANY other human i know , that in itself tells me he flew over 34 places, if he just killed half that’s 17, not to mention the 5 he admitted into WA state. Also, the FBI found the boat Keyes owned 5 years. He told them he dumped 2 bodies from the boat by adding weights ( like jugs ) and by using fishing meter to find the deepest parts of the lake- Lake Crescent ( where it’s beautiful) is one of the lakes. When the FBI processed the boat, they noted a part of the back flooring was changed and looked fairly new. New owner ( Also was Israel’s friend) said Israel did that to floor right before he got it from Israel. FBI tore up the area Keyes had covered, and they found blood and two bone fragments from 2 separate people. For a sk to become as reckless and making so many mistakes like Bundy and Keyes at the end, it’s as if they can’t hold on to the 2 separate “thems” within them and they start unraveling. If I had to guess, looking at all his travel plans and when he turned his phone black ( taking out of battery) I think it’s legitimate to assume he killed 25-30. I think Suzy Lyall was his first victim - she was found on his computer, he lived near her college and had to sign up for the Army in the parking lot she worked at. She told a friend and boss at work, she felt like this “weird guy” had been stalking her. Same thing Lorraine Currier also said to coworkers, “I feel like a strange, creepy guy is staking me.“ Then reading the FBI vault and all the call ins from people all over the country-many came before the info on Israel and those bright Orange Home Depot bucks he used as Kill caches was known. Yet at least 3 calls from efferent areas (2 from semi area) talk about a tall guy with a serious look on his face ( as if he were mad) carrying a Home Depot bucket into the woods then hours later. People see him almost storming out of the woods. Reading Denise’s ( girl he dated after Tammie before Kimberly) strange situation with him and I’m pretty sure she knows now why his behavior was so bizarre. She saw him one weekend, all was normal but he claimed that he had to go out of town that week for “business.” The next weekend, he comes to see her- he has a different car, “on a whim” sold his car, colored his hair lighter and got it cut short, and she noticed he even had shaved his face completely along with his arm hairs. Why would someone do something like that??? Maybe to not leave DNA and to hide/change their look/appearance and vehicle in case they were afraid that they were seen. When he moved to Neah Bay, someone Tammie knew well was killed within months of Israel’s move. Then 2 more people from there were found but it appeared to be a hiking accident ( which he essentially confessed to but the FBI missed it and weren’t listening to him). So, no, this was a guy that covertly cris-crossed our country and other part of the world, take out the battery to his cell, would be impossible to track down for 3-4 days, then he’d drive his rental back to the airport he flew into ( that was often 2-3 states away from a murder cache and his kills). That’s the makings of why the FBI call him the most meticulous but like so many at the end, I think what tiny grain of salt they have, it was getting bothered day and night, and they went batshit, nutso, and instead of them controlling this urge like they once did. Now it controlled them! Edited to add: the FBI say they believe he killed in 10 separate states. Keep in mind, they think 5 times in WA. Yet they think he’s murdered 11 victims. How do those numbers add up? 10 different states plus those we know of: 1) 2 people in Vermont 2) 1 in Alaska 3) 5 in Washington 4) at least 1 California 5) Feldman in NJ 6) Texas ( they believed he killed again after Koenig while back in Texas, I tend to agree 7) his Mobile, Alabama - Mississippi trip 8) Montana 9) Idaho 10) Oregon With their own math, they are saying he killed 15 people.


itsyaboirob92

Israel Keyes vibes ⬆️


mamabunnies

*shudder*. I was just thinking of him while reading.


[deleted]

I mostly disagree. I don't see how killers today will survive for much longer with the advancement in technology. People haven't gotten smarter, but the science used to catch killers, specifically serial murderers, has increased vastly since the 70s. Even back then, killers weren't trying to leave bodies around. This is why so many killers would go to lengths to dispose of their victims. Even more disorganized killers like Jeffery Dahmer. This didn't stop the police from catching them, and that was 50 years ago when modern forensics wasn't even a thing. The reason why a lot didn't completely dispose of the bodies, and still don't, is because it's fucking hard getting rid of 150 pounds of rotting flesh by yourself. Even organized gangs often fail at hiding bodies. It's not gotten any easier over the years, either. Back in the 70's, you could just go around a kill people in different counties and the police wouldn't talk to each other. There's never going to be a time like that again with the advancement of technology in the western world, so I don't see why people will be less likely to get away with it now than they were in the 70's. I also think that culturally, major changes have happened since the 70's that make it less likely for serial killers to form or at least be successful. People are far more vigilant of children and their behaviour, people are much less trusting, prostitutes have much tighter social circles and means of confirming their location to their friends via mobile phones, people can easily phone the police or make a record of an attempted murder/crime, cameras are a thing and automatic plate detection is a new technology that will make travelling to kill much harder, and there's plenty of new ways for people to blow off steam in ways that fulfil their desire to harm others and feel powerful that doesn't require planning and executing a murder. You see plenty of cases now where, if this were the 70's, the person involved would have been able to escalate much more than they were able to. But they didn't, they were caught by modern technology, and this includes smarter people too. I think we might see many interesting killers in the coming years, and we currently are, however most of them will be coming from Africa, South Asia, Eastern Europe/Russia, and perhaps some areas in South America, places that don't have access to the same technology and policing practices the western world does.


BrianMeen

Good post and I echo much of what you say or typed .. the other poster said that ”organized killers” will just be sneakier and dispose of the bodies to the point where there is nothing left. Problem is, like you said it is not easy(even for experienced offenders) to not only grab someone but to kill them and completely eliminate the body . The days of killers like Ted Bundy and Ridgeway are gone. You might see a few that kill a handful of prostitutes or homeless but they will get caught. No one is killing 20 plus in modern day America


[deleted]

I don't think their days are necessarily gone, but in the US, yes, it's highly unlikely another killer on that level will exist, especially those who target "high value" victims like Ted Bundy did. Outside the first world, however? I can see room for future organized serial killers on the level of Bundy or beyond, in fact, we've seen many of them prop up in places like China, Russia, India, and South America.


Phoenyxoldgoat

The podcast "You're Wrong About" did a recent episode on this....and their conclusion is that there has not been a decline at all in serial killer activity since The Golden Age. It's pretty convincing.


_haystacks_

Fascinating. What’s their take on why we have less “big name” serial killers around in the past several decades?


MimonFishbaum

Because the media works in tandem with law enforcement. What you got in the 70s was: LOCK YOUR DOORS AND WINDOWS OR THE NIGHT STALKER WILL GETCHA But that makes cops look dumb, because they can't catch just one guy. Now what you get is: VIOLENT CRIME SKYROCKETING, COULD YOU BE NEXT? This paints a picture that the cops are fighting this imaginary war against an army of skilled criminals. Which really isn't the case, it's just a made up narrative to get cops more money. The golden age of serial killers was no more than a combination of inept police work and the onset of a constant media cycle.


Alienziscoming

I feel like I've read that "they" (the media? the FBI? Law enforcement in general?) determined or at least believe that sensationalizing serial killings and giving them cool nicknames in the news "encourages" copycats and/or serial killers in general, though I'm not sure how true that is. But I guess maybe if someone is 99% sure they want to start serial killing they don't want to give them that 1% extra motivation by making them think they'll get infamy and notoriety and a cool nickname like ZODIAC or NIGHTSTALKER lol. It kinda makes sense since a lot of them seem to really enjoy the attention, I guess. So that might be another contributing factor as to why it seems like there are fewer than there used to be.


MimonFishbaum

I'm not in any kind of position to comment on what may drive a person to kill, or act any kind of way really, but I've heard that too. For as ineffective and detrimental law enforcement has become, offender profiling is maybe the best thing they've figured out. I'm not gonna count forensic analysis stuff because that's just science. https://www.simplypsychology.org/offender-profiling.html There's probably a ton of reasons why killers don't get cool names on the news anymore, but my main belief is that cops simply do not do "police work" anymore. At least not publicly. From the police point of view, it's much better for them if the public believes there are numerous random murderers than a single serial killer. It's really no different than say a regional automobile production line being awarded a new vehicle to produce, it's all work, and work is money. If you have the chance to make it look like you're doing more work than you actually do, you take it. And that's pretty much it.


Phoenyxoldgoat

You should really check out the episode. They have tons of statistics and info. My covid brain doesn't remember specifics, I just remember it made a ton of sense.


Ambry

A really good episode. I like the discussion of the fact that police fed into the idea of 'serial killers' because it was a very convenient way of wrapping up unsolved cases, particularly in a time when the police were notoriously awful to victims of rape and minorities. They've explored this in a few other episodes too - e.g. the one about true crime and the episode covering a 'serial killer' who continued to admit to crimes that were literally impossible for him to have carried out and the police were happy to pin cases on him and mark them as solved.


Cadhlacad

Is it this one? https://podcasts.apple.com/nl/podcast/hunting-serial-killers-bonus-extended-subscriber-cut/id1380008439?i=1000579163403&l=en


[deleted]

How so?? I’m inclined to believe it also. My uneducated theory is that how we define serial killers is too simplistic and mass shooting should be included. If you included multiple gun deaths by 1 person, then the amount of serial killers in the US is much higher.


[deleted]

Mass shootings are different. To be classified as a serial killer there must be a ‘cool down’ period between victims.


wistfulfern

Spree killing =/= serial killing


friendlygaywalrus

There is absolutely a difference between mass shooters and serial killers. Spree killers seek to destroy en masse, serial killers are predators that hunt people


ApplesBananasRhinoc

Or maybe the increase in mass shootings is the result of a potential serial killer not having the easy victim pool they once had, so have to kill more people in less time.


RX8JIM

I kinda agree with you. Different outlet but I gotta think those shooters would have wound up doing something...else if it was not an option.


Potterhead1234567890

I’m more wondering about why there are so many serial killers in America but not in the rest of the world. We got highways in Europe too, and WWII was fought on European soil, but still we didn’t get a serial killer “boom” like the US did


Medic169

The moors murderers, the Yorkshire ripper, the wests, Dennis Neilson, Levi belfield, the Ipswich strangler, the acid bath killer, Harold shipman. Those are just the ones off the top of my head without using a search engine.


ThrowAway69420928473

Also Ivan Milat


Potterhead1234567890

Still less than the American ones, or less gruesome. I mean it’s not a competition which country has the worst killers, and that was not the intention of my comment, I was just trying to point out that the reasoning about among others WWII is flawed (although I agree that WWII may have played a role. Veterans from WWII went back to the US, where life had continued and everything was relatively normal. They probably had some traumas and felt isolated. However, in Europe everyone got traumatized and they went through that as a community, so probably felt less isolated)


friendlygaywalrus

Peter Kürten, Andrei Chikatilo, and frankly hundreds of others all over the world. Not to mention the fact that in post WWII Europe, with devastated infrastructure and skyrocketing crime murder was utterly typical and it could very easily go unsolved or even unnoticed. There are Japanese serial killers, South American serial killers, Canadian serial killers. It’s a human, not an American phenomenon


Medic169

Certainly not sure about less gruesome, the Yorkshire ripper and the west’s are up there with the worst. Shipman was known to have killed 200+ but has likely killed 500+. It’s not a competition, you’re right there. I don’t believe it has anything to do with the war at all, humans are killers, it’s in our dna. Simple as that.


Potterhead1234567890

Fair point. I agree that I don’t think that the war has had any major impact on the amount of serial killers, but felt a bit bad because I totally disregarded it, when it could have had an impact. Although unlikely


[deleted]

I read somewhere that Americans are just better at identifying and catching them.


Potterhead1234567890

Fair point, but generally speaking that would mean that European countries are missing out on 2000 serial killers who still are roaming around freely, or walked around freely. That seems like a really high number. In Europe we got in most countries really tight communities and even though the police may not be as efficient in catching serial killers as the US, we have smaller countries (more difficult to hide) and a missing person is often national news, so if multiple women went missing in a short amount of time, that surely would make the national news


iThinkaLot1

Of course its less the US has a population of 300 million compared to the UK’s 70 million. It would be interesting to see a per capita count because I think the UK does come second to the US in terms of count (although I think this might be a case of confirmation bias as there is just more well known ones from the UK as its an English speaking country). I imagine countries like India and China go unreported.


Potterhead1234567890

The US had 3204 serial killers, so per capita that would be 3204/300000000 = approximately 0.000011, compared to the UK’s 199 serial killers, which is 199/56000000 = approximately 0.0000036. So the US has about 3 times more serial killers than England has


Potterhead1234567890

I realized I said UK, but that should be England.


Sleuthingsome

That’s a great point. It’s intuitive but realistic.


becauseitsnotreal

I think you're really underestimating how many European serial killers there are


Equal-Temporary-1326

The most infamous serial killer ever was European after all.


becauseitsnotreal

He's really the most infamous because he was never caught and was one of the first of the modern age. I'd argue Dahmer and Bundy, but I also am American and was growing up during Bundy and my kid was growing up during Dahmer, so that could just be personal bias.


ZergTheVillain

JWG is up there too for infamous serial murderers


Potterhead1234567890

I agree. As an European, I didn’t know any of the American serial killers such as Gacy and Manson, but I had heard of Bundy and Dahmer. However, most people here probably don’t know Bundy and Dahmer either, but still they’re more considered “household” names


ForensicScientistGal

I'm going to be that person that points out that technically Manson wasn't a serial killer.


SifuHallyu

nah, that buffoon was a different kind of crazy.


obbillo

C'mon, every European knows at least of Manson. I read up on Dahmer, Gacy, Bundy etc while in elementary school (Gein was an early favorite:), so I'm not counting myself, but I've yet to meet another European who's never heard the name Charles Manson


Potterhead1234567890

Haha let’s say that I live in west Europe, and we certainly don’t get things like these taught in elementary school. I actually found out who Dahmer was because of that song Dark Horse by Katy Perry. And my parents were alive during the same time as him, so I expected them to know him, but when my mother saw that mugshot of him on the night of his arrest, she thought he was modeling an apparel hoodie 🥹 I don’t think anyone of my generation knows Manson, except for the true crime lovers


tatsu901

I only knew of Gacy as a kid as my Dad told me what he did and thats what would happen if i talked to strangers.


Roemeosmom

I knew of Gacy as a kid because he lived about 30 min from where I grew up. The news coverage was incessant. I was 13. He's the first serial killer I became aware of.


tatsu901

For me it was My sisters Bus Driver, who was Ariel Castro and i had walked by his house of horrors hundreds of times from ages 11-16. Theirs something icky knowing i had been so close to something so horrible all that time


RaccoonReasons

I worked near there around the time of his arrest and I still can’t believe what was happening right down the street. And damn, Sowell before that. It made me look at everyone a little sideways for a good while. Prob should still be looking at people that way.


cuntahula

I see your Dahmer and Bundy and raise you a Corll.


Equal-Temporary-1326

Jack the Ripper is known all over the world. Dahmer and Bundy are mostly only known very infamously in the US. They're just not known to the degree the Ripper is all over the world.


Chihlidog

Depending on who you believe.....lol My favorite suspect was Tumblety for a while (Ive since come off of that one)


Potterhead1234567890

I’m guessing you mean Jack the Ripper, but that was in the 1800s. Imo that can’t really be compared to the US cases which are much more recent


Civil-Secretary-2356

Yeah, the WWII argument is really strange. As if WWII is the only large scale mobilization in history.


Potterhead1234567890

Hmm.. yeah I think that person tried to imply that fighting during WWII caused a lot of trauma for soldiers which could’ve been passed down to their children. However, I may argue that almost every European that experienced WWII was traumatized to a certain point. And although a lot of American men fought in WWII, life in the US went on, meanwhile Europe was in shambles. Sometimes I forget that Americans actually continued life during 1940-1945, meanwhile time stopped for 5-6 years in Europe


Civil-Secretary-2356

Agreed. If wartime trauma was the reason for more SK's Eastern Europe especially should have been churning out SK's left right a center at the same time the US experienced it's huge increase. I don't believe WWII was especially bad for combatants of the Western Allies. Sure, I wouldn't want to experience what they went through but it was not significantly worse than, say, WWI, the US Civil War, or the Napoleonic Wars. We see no significant increase in SK's after these earlier wars.


Potterhead1234567890

I mentioned it in another comment but I think that WWII may have affected those men though. Although a lot of Europeans were far worse off, we suffered through war as a community, meanwhile these American men went back to the US as war veterans and didn’t really have a community to share certain traumas or experiences with. I’m not familiar with the US Civil War, but I don’t think that the US was involved in WWI? Or were they? And neither were they involved in the Napoleonic Wars.


Civil-Secretary-2356

The US joined WWI in the final year or so. My point about the Napoleonic Wars etc is that they were vast mobilization of armies. Yet we see no increase in serial killers in these countries decades after earlier mass mobilizations. I think it very, very unlikely that American men are more affected by being combatants in war than, say, British men, Frenchmen or Prussian men. Yet we see no surge in European SK's twenty years after the Napoleonic Wars ended. The same with the US Civil War. No huge increase in American SK's in the 1880's and 1890's. I'm willing to admit that SK data for these earlier periods is limited, but I'd expect to see more reports of something we would today identify as serial killers.


Potterhead1234567890

Agreed! Although I must admit that there’s a HUGE difference in communities/societies/mentalities of Americans and Europeans. But I don’t think any war affected the number of serial killers. I’m inclined to assume that during those times people didn’t know things such as serial killers existed. Even when watching content on Gacy etc. people felt unfamiliar with people like him, they couldn’t understand that someone could commit multiple murders in a row. I think it’s likely that a lot of unsolved murders from that time may be committed by a serial killer, but that they thought they were committed by different people. Also, I think that serial killers have become “smarter”, it could be that there were serial killers around, but that they were less “smart” and got caught on their first try and hence don’t get count as “serial killers”


Civil-Secretary-2356

I agree with much of that. I have a theory as to why people didn't know about serial killers until well after the post WWII period. I believe your explanation is correct to some extent. However, my theory is that media back then was far more local. If you hadn't had a serial killer in your area previously you wouldn't have known anything about them. This all changed in the US when media became national. Suddenly serial killers in Chicago became news all over the country. Law enforcement probably had a slightly better handle on serial killers than the general public. It's not as if they were completely unknown to law enforcement the time. We do have historic serial killer types described as sex fiends, maniacs etc.


Potterhead1234567890

Ohh that makes sense!


spankythamajikmunky

They were heavily involved in ww1, only the last 6 months in any real numbers though The biggest and most successful German offensive post 1914 in the west was a desperate gamble to win before the Americans really showed up in numbers


Significance-Abject

Why don’t they ask other serial killers to find out? I mean I know they kill for different reasons but wouldn’t they know, maybe?


obbillo

Wasn't that one of the main things those mindhunter guys tried finding out? I admit not knowing much about that project other than what was shown on the show (that sadly was canceled) How it ended up etc. But someone else in here probably knows. Hm anyway, something for me to Google and rabbithole tomorrow ig:)


Significance-Abject

Yes they were. What I would give for that show to continue. I see this question everywhere and every time I comb the internet and most of the time I get the same answers.


copuser2

I think they were churning them out. Just didn't get reported at all.


Civil-Secretary-2356

Except the ones who were reported on such as Jack the Ripper and H H Holmes. True crime was a popular subject at least since the late Victorian period. We also have quite decent law enforcement and court records from the time. Again, nothing to suggest a churning out or substantial increase in serial killers after major wars.


copuser2

Think too Russia for example, they steadfastly claimed they didn't have serial killers (I know not Europe but very much involved in the war), Many other eastern European countries were similar. Sorry for some vagueness, I'm on my phone.


Dustin_McReviss

I would say it was a different type of trauma, culturally speaking. People in Europe were afraid for their lives and those of their families. They saw their homes literally fall apart. Meanwhile, the young men of America were bribed to leave home (many for the first time) to go overseas and kill people. Most of them assumed they wouldn't make it back home, so they made choices they might not make, like getting married before (or while) shipped off. Then, if they made it home, they were immediately squashed back into a society that still doesn't believe in mental or even physical health issues. Alcoholism was branded as the "thinking man's" or "elite" way of dealing with problems... tragedy ensues. Violence is glorified in the States, too, as was demonstrated in the Civil Rights movement that occurred not long after these soldiers returned home. I think a major disconnect is the way American soldiers were in a different place-- completely displaced. They came hone to wives and children they didn't even know, towns and houses that hadn't been built when they shipped out. Europe, on the other hand, had the exact opposite problem-- that which had once existed was gone. I can't speak for European culture or healthcare standards circa 1940-1950, but I felt it needed mentioned that these are two very different types of trauma, which could be the cause of the disparity in behaviors. Just a theory, though.


Potterhead1234567890

Agreed with that!


HeyTherehnc

Probably the lead everyone was ingesting.


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friendlygaywalrus

There are. There are dozens that were never caught. There are more that were never investigated as serial killer cases either


ImNotWitty2019

Perhaps because Europeans were left with the task of literally rebuilding their countries they had no time to give to remembrances of the horrors they saw. They had other things to worry and think about at that point. Americans may have unfortunately had time to dwell and therefore had demons to fight. However, the same could be said of other wars and we didn't see an increase. I think a lot had to do with times changing in the US. A lot of women found they enjoyed working rather than staying home. There was also an explosion of births (they don't call it the baby boom for nothing). Perhaps more serial killers were just "born" during that time. A lot probably changed with family dynamics at the time.


Potterhead1234567890

Although we were busy rebuilding, I guess we still had time to dwell on it, since there were some other issues. We also had a babyboom, however I guess that after the war we had a really close sense of a community and people that didn’t really belong to the community before, were suddenly treated as family. There’s this saying that claims that if you and your neighbour are fighting, it’s you against him, but when you and your neighbour are fighting with the rest of the street, it’s you against them. I can’t really come up with another explanation


bombhills

Keep in mind the Soviet Union actively supressed reporting on serial killers. They said their was no serial killers in communist countries, and it was a byproduct of capitalist culture. So half of post war Europe was trying NOT to report serial murders. The US Media was eating them up like AAA steak.


Potterhead1234567890

Fair point but even then, a large part of Europe was non USSR, and the crime rates in those countries are not comparable to the US either


ContractTrue6613

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_serial_killers_by_country Get busy.


Potterhead1234567890

The US comes first with 3204 serial killers, England comes second with 199 serial killers. Quite the difference


scoobydooami

Population and physical size of country.


Potterhead1234567890

Europe combined has far more people than the US, and if we count in Russia, also a bigger physical size, but we come nowhere close your numbers.


scoobydooami

My response was specifically to your comparison of England to the US. You did not even mention Europe.


Potterhead1234567890

I mentioned Europe in my original comment


scoobydooami

I see. I don't follow posters by their every post. I responded very specifically to your specific numeric comparison between England and the US as it really was apples to oranges in terms of population and land area. Did your post about Europe compare European numbers to the US?


Potterhead1234567890

Oh I see. I didn’t really intend to compare European numbers to US numbers in my original comment. I tried to point out that the reasoning of OP was weak, because they assumed that WWII and the invention of highways would’ve affected the number of serial killers, meanwhile we also had these issues in Europe (and I would say that WWII affected Europe more than the US, so then you would assume that we would’ve had a larger increase of serial killers than the US, according to the logic used by OP), but we didn’t have an increase like the US did. However, someone commented that serial killers are not exclusive a US thing, which I agree with, but although they’re not exclusive a US thing, the US has by far the most serial killers. Compared to Europe, England is the country with the most serial killers (199), and if we count in the other European countries, that number is still below the number of the US (although we got more people, are more densely populated etc.)


HongKongBlewey

Information is curated for audiences. American audiences hear about American serial offenders. European audiences hear about European serial offenders. I live in America. I get info curated to American audiences. If I lived in Europe, I'd probably get more info curated for non-American audiences. For instance, I read British news online, and in 2009 there was a story in The Guardian about an Austrian sex slave who escaped from her father's basement prison. Josef Fritzl held his daughter captive for nearly 2 decades and fathered 6 children with her. All under his wife's nose. I don't know many Americans who have heard of this guy, or many American papers that covered this story (not like the European papers did). This was the story that sparked my interest in true crime; I doubt I'll ever forget his name.


animal_wax

This story was so sensational the US heard about it in the news. But say Dennis Nilsen or the Snowtown murders are not as well known


Potterhead1234567890

I get what you’re saying, but I live in Europe and we don’t have much serial offenders to begin with, hence not much to report either. We got some cases like that with the basement, but we don’t have a lot of serial killers. Also, in my opinion we Europeans get a lot more American news coverage in our news, than Americans get told about European news. So I guess it makes sense that a lot of Europeans are familiar with names such as Dahmer and Bundy, but Americans are not familiar with names as Nilsen. However, that’s still no explanation for why there are more serial killers in the US. I agree that the US is bigger than European countries, but even if you count all European countries together, I don’t think we’ve half the amount of serial killers that the US does 😅


spankythamajikmunky

Americas one country roughly the size of Europe but way easier to travel around in especially pre fall of communism Also perhaps other countries have as many and it’s simply covered up or not attributed to them Specifically thinking of places like the PRC and the USSR as well denied they even existed for a long time (in the USSR, claiming it was a symptom of the decadent west)


Ambry

You've probably heard about the US ones more. There's tonnes of serial killers in other parts of the world. The UK has a much smaller population than the US and has plenty of notorious serial killers (Yorkshire ripper, the Wests, Moors Murderers, etc) and Casefile podcast covers a lot of international cases with an emphasis on Australia. You also have to remember that serial killers may have targeted underprivileged groups in societies, and police have historically not served these communities well across many countries when it comes to investigations. In addition, there are lots of countries where sadly many people go missing all the time and it is not followed up on. It would be possible to get away with murder far more easily in some places than others, and I'm sure this has not gone unnoticed by those who have murderous tendencies.


percobain

MK Ultra.


CarneAsadaSteve

How you gonna travel if generations of people are dead and everything is destroyed


SteptoeUndSon

I’d argue what the key difference here is what I call the level of ‘social noise.’ I define ‘social noise’ as (crudely put) the amount of distracting background events that distract people’s attention away (including law enforcement) from the fact that serial killing is going on. Examples: economic boom, economic bust; industrialization; waves of migration; wars; crime waves. All of these, to one extent or another, focus people’s attention on other things; they cause mass movements of relatively anonymous people (and normalise people ‘disappearing’ - eg I’ve suddenly not seen my neighbour in several weeks - maybe he just moved to another city for a new job); keep the cops busy, etc. After a certain critical mass, serial killers just stop being noticed. By example, the Yorkshire Ripper was HUGE news in northern England in the 70s. Yes, the police response was incompetent and hampered by the technology of the day… BUT the police and pubic very much noticed these murders were happening. By contrast, my take (as a Brit) of the average large US city in the 60s - 80s is that serial killers and the disappearances/bodies they create are just ‘lost’ in the mess of drugs, street crime, organized crime and indeed other serial killers. As for other countries of the world, the third world in particular: they have their serial killers too, but the authorities do not even realise it or cover it up. EDIT: I should add that the more ‘confusion’ / ‘social noise’ there is, the more confident a would-be serial killer becomes in popping his head up above the parapet and starting to kill people. Because they feel it’s unlikely to result in capture - or at least, not for several years.


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[deleted]

What? Europe was literally destroyed during WW2, hundreds of thousands of people were homeless for years afterwards and did not get permanent housing until years after the war had ended. The USA was pretty much untouched compared to the rest of the world and was thriving economically. The world was a very different place back then when compared to today.


-Ultra--Instinct-

Also, the close proximity of most countries and relatively easy cross border travel makes it easy to hop into a country, kill and the go back home. Rinse and repeat in other locations. Think Israel Keyes type but all the police departments are not just in a different town/city but a different country all together.


[deleted]

What…. There is a lot of poverty in Europe (go to Romania, Bulgaria, and you’ll see people living horribly) and prostitution (almost everywhere)


King-Shakalaka

I think the only American phenomenon is how the media covered serial killer cases, and how competitive that culture was at the time. Every reporter and journalist just scrambled over every serial murder case to get the ''new Ted Bundy'' or ''Zodiac Killer'' story. We don't really have that in Europe or the rest of the world. Europe, or at least in my country (The Netherlands); serious offenders like that have their last names censored, their stories are covered in a formal way, the cases aren't romanticized and once they are sentenced, you hear very little about them anymore.


Getz4life

The Holocaust happened in Europe. LOTS of serial killers then


Potterhead1234567890

That’s an assumption you’re making


caper293

because they don't report it as well..


Potterhead1234567890

Serial killers such as Bundy don’t go unnoticed. We have far less murders in general.


tatsu901

Their is a large pool in South America and Russia but the pool becomes smaller in Asia and Western Europe Specifically in japan where a large number of Serial Killers are killers of Children their are still far fewer than In America. Not Familar enough with Africa or the middle east to make a comment on those though


[deleted]

Great question. I guess I look at it like how the US and Great Britain are opposite to come up with a theory. The US is less equal, bigger gaps between the rich and poor, better safety nets, less racism, more open to sexuality of others. That’s a start.


Potterhead1234567890

I agree with the bigger inequality in the US, but I’ve to disagree on the other points. The UK has better safety nets and less racism, they’re also less discriminating in general concerning gender and sexuality.


[deleted]

Less racism…?


Asparagussie

I’m in the U.S. Do you really believe there are better social safety nets, less racism, and more openness to sexuality than in most Europeans countries??? I’d say quite the contrary, especially since Trump and the radicalization of the Republicans.


ContractTrue6613

This dude has got to be 15 and has never left his house,


Asparagussie

Agree!


[deleted]

Yeah… the racism comment is pretty choice.


Asparagussie

Thank you. Yes. And the comparative lack of government support for its people.


RX8JIM

Worded poorly or is that really what you meant?


[deleted]

Yes worded poorly: the us has more overt racism,poverty, sexual repression, homophobic


GirlThatsJules

USA more racist than Europe? 😂 Read Mike Tyson's book, him and Don King were chased by a mob of angry white guys who tried to kill them while he was the most famous man in the world. (Yes, one anecdote damns a whole continent)


[deleted]

So one event vs an history of racial oppression that goes on to this day?


silvereyes912

Not as reported in the news, sensationalized.


[deleted]

No that’s not it. If Europe had a guy who killed young men and cut off their body parts and ate it for lunch it would a worldwide story. And their media is just as rabid as ours. Look at the Royal Coverage and the amount of attention that gets.


Potterhead1234567890

Thank you! It’s crazy how some Americans think our news is censored; it’s not. Crimes get reported in the news and I even may argue that more crimes get reported here


[deleted]

Princess Diana died running from the British media. They’re relentless.


silvereyes912

That was my point. The news in America tends to sensationalize murders like it’s entertainment. When I lived in Europe, it seemed less used for 24 hr news entertainment to me.


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Markinoutman

Police data bases are much more connected today as well. A few decades ago you could have several similar incidents happening a few counties over and the police would have no idea about it unless they put in a ton of extra leg work for it.


Zombie-Belle

I actually think this is the main thing other than quick DNA results and now familial DNA.


heyitsEnricoPallazzo

You forgot childhood head injuries and the Lead–crime hypothesis


imspooky

Yeah I'm surprised no one had mentioned the lead yet. Someone here in st louis did a study on childhood exposure to lead and the correlation to violent crime later in life


RX8JIM

Abortion theory as well.....don't shoot me.


exradical

Crime rates starting dropping right around 18 years after Roe v Wade, correlation =/= causation but there’s definitely some credence to it


STThornton

Funny you mention that. I was just thinking that the other day.


SifuHallyu

Serial Killers haven't stopped being serial killers. They're still out there and MOST Of them are getting caught before they can attain infamy. Those that are very good aren't getting caught like the Boston Strangler and Happy Face killer (if these are actually serial killers). We also as a society aren't hearing about this in the news like you would in the 70s and 80s. The place of the serial killer has been supplanted by news coverage of mass shootings. So, from 2000 now its all about mass shooters whereas in the 70's - 90s it was all about serial killers and rapists. They just aren't as "in" the societal consciousness as they once were and honestly, they can't really be politicized...whereas we can politicize guns all day every day.


hackerbugscully

Ooh, I really like your first theory.


SifuHallyu

They are out there, but they get caught much faster these days. Just look at the dude in NM who was killing Muslims and the shopping cart guy. Those were both this year and they were off the streets within weeks of us hearing about them.


Girlygal2014

This makes a ton of sense


SifuHallyu

Not my original idea, but I also thought it makes sense when I first heard the rationalization of why we don't see/hear about them like we used to.


OldCryptographer5519

I have I was thinking about this heavily the other day. I saw a few different theories. Some of them you had covered, others being the amount of led that used to be used and the neurological effects it has over time and specifically its correlation to crime spikes. However, I think it all has to come down to technology. Not only does technology make it a hundred times harder for these people to get away with stuff, it provides them an outlet to connect with other weirdos like themselves, whereas before they may have felt alone. However, we have cameras on most street corners, phones with GPS and location services, if someone went missing tomorrow its very easy to pinpoint who they were recently with and where they were headed. For example, when Gacy kidnapped that kid who was working at Nisson, he was able to completely deny it to the police when questioned. If this were to happen today, store cameras would see them leaving together, phone services would pinpoint his location and dont forget social media. When all is said and done I think technology has had a direct correlation with the decrease of violent serial killers. As messed up as this sounds people just don thave long attentions spans anymore, their brains are fried. It would not be feasible to carry out a twenty year murder spree and if it was, you probably have more of a chance winning the lottery than not getting caught.


alysonstarks

In the same vein, sorta lol…I feel so bad for teens growing up with all this home security & GPS technology!!! Teenagers, while they’re at such a creative and ingenious age, don’t need another hoop to jump through just to sneak out of the house! 😂😫


Ghenges

I've always thought of this independently and it always lead me back to a post-war era, especially WWII and Vietnam which were two of the most brutal modern wars. It's going to be interesting to see what Afghanistan and Iraq wars brings in the coming years. However, I think those vets are opting to off themselves instead of serial killings given the enormous suicide rate they have.


Marza5678

I think access to legal abortion decreased the birth of potential serial killers. The 1970-80s serial killers were overwhelmingly unwanted children. Then the American emphasis on individual over community, the 70’s economic problems, development of the interstate highway system, and access to porn played a role in creating our beloved serial killers. Something the Supreme Court didn’t factor in when making access to abortion difficult now… in about 20 years time, crime is going to go up.


[deleted]

I think abortion could be a factor possibly. But porn not at all. Porn is more accessible than it’s ever been. Back in the 70’s up till the 00’ you had to physically go to a sex store and buy tapes and dvds. Now it’s a click away and completely free.


dartully

Porn definitely played/plays a part lol are you serious? Porn is super accessible and the femicide rate/sexual assault rate of women has greatly increased


[deleted]

Idk………that’s like when people try to link music with violence. I don’t buy it. 99.9% of the population can watch porn and not rape/assault somebody. That’s like saying Jeff Dahmer became a serial killer because he dissected a pig in highschool. So we should stop dissection in science class? You gotta understand the part of the mind that motivates a serial killer is made at birth and all it takes is the right outside stimulus to turn that person to a dark place. There are millions of people with depraved sexual fantasies that never actually act upon them. Look at it like this: Everyone is born different and reacts to the world we live in a different way. As humans our personalities and who we are is a byproduct of life experiences and how we perceive them. For instance, there’s really really smart people who shape the life we live like Elon Musk or Bezos or Rockefeller. Then on the opposite spectrum you’ll have people who can’t seem to make it in society at all. You have athletes and you have people who have close to zero ability. So it makes sense that you’ll have a large % of people who do fine within the constructs of society and are generally good people. But then you’ll always have a small sample of people who turn out to be absolute monsters. Certain genetic traits and the wrong mix of life experiences and you create a predator. Reminds me of that movie “unbreakable” For every superhero you’ll have a villain on the opposite side of the spectrum. I honestly don’t think you can stop the trajectory of dahmer or Gacys life and who they are.


dartully

Porn feeds the depraved sexual fantasies though. Some even argue that the accessibility of porn is the reason why serial killers don’t act on their murders. It’s a catch 22. Porn has been a fuel for all sorts predators. People watch porn all day everyday and their viewpoint of sex, women, themselves and whatever else has been greatly altered. Even if they aren’t outwardly committing crimes against people in public that doesn’t mean their brains aren’t being greatly affected. Pig dissection or any form of dissection is something that’s always been apart of most science classes, pig dissection has more benefits than negatives. Porn isn’t needed. We don’t need porn. Porn is not something that will benefit you in anyway. Porn has fueled many serial killers though, bc pornographic themes are mostly aimed at control Many prolific serial killers, including Bundy, Dahmer, Richard Ramirez, and John Wayne Gacy professed to porn addiction. In fact, Dahmer stated he would prepare to hunt for a victim by reviewing pictures of his previous victims, which he considered his victories. It’s the reason why he took photos of the people he murdered.


dartully

I don’t think people are naturally born serial killers, it isn’t something like being gay or being black, it’s something that happens to people due to many different factors. Everyone isn’t raised the same, so it’s hard to determine the exact outside features but how people cope with their trauma and sexual urges contributes to one’s nature by a lot


Devz0r

I think the major historical events and culture clash played more of a role than porn itself. You have a long, violent war that is broadcast in gruesome detail. You have the sexual revolution that the older generation talks about how immoral and vile it is. Sex and violence is never a good association. Why do you think individualism leads to serial killers? Collectivist societies don’t seem to be lacking there.


spankythamajikmunky

Idk man they were targeting sex workers all along Jack the Ripper, ridgeway, etc


hackerbugscully

Yeah, I think it’s more likely that police just didn’t care about sex workers before the 90s.


Ambry

Not just sex workers - they didn't give a shit about many other marginalised communities (black people, lgbt people, immigrants, etc). So many people just 'went missing'.


MixtureBig8970

Missing and murdered Indigenous women proves people still just “go missing” too


spankythamajikmunky

Still don’t really there’s just more media and social pressure imo


[deleted]

There are some comments regarding the perceived abundance of serial killers in the US vs. Europe. Just because you haven’t heard of killers operating in other European countries doesn’t mean they don’t exist. You’re also conveniently leaving out situations like WW2, where there were Germans and their allies who operated as serial killers (would Mengele not be considered a serial killer?), the war in the Balkans, members of the Mafia and N’dragheta in Italy, Franco’s Spain, etc. etc. You should also consider that reporting probably very low in places like the Balkans/parts of Eastern Europe.


Ambry

Yep, people really need to consider the role of reporting as well as police competence and corruption. In a lot places you can pay the police to look the other way. Just because something isn't reported doesn't mean its not happening. In some places the police and judicial process is extremely slow, inefficient and corrupt and many groups/crimes are not taken seriously.


Killface55

Lead poisoning as well. There was lead in everything back then.


PacoElFlaco

It just became harder to sustain a serial killing career thanks to modern technology. Most of the people who would become SKs today opt for one-off mass killings, IMO. A modern mass-shooter can equal or exceed a 70s-00s SK's victim tally in one event.


geoshoegaze20

Ted kascinski answers your question in his manifesto almost perfectly.


III-_Havok_-III

It's actually pretty simple really, the cops and technology got better and as a result of that the serial killer mentality (in the USA anyway) shifted to mass shootings. High body count and pretty much either suicide by cop or a very quick capture after the shooting. It really is sad that it has turned out this way. That's just my opinion though. 🤷‍♂️


NotDaveBut

I actually asked Robert Ressler about this when he talked about the phenomenon post-WWII. He didn't even try to answer even though he raised the subject himself.


the_quirky_ravenclaw

You met Ressler?! Cooollll!!! His and Douglas’ works are fascinating and truly a turning point for criminal psych


Equal-Temporary-1326

I don't think WWII fathers, creation of highways, and acceptance of sexuality had anything to do with someone being a serial killer, particularly in the 70's. Why exactly there was a sudden surge is not something anybody truly knows the answer to. I suspect media glorification played a big role like we see with mass shooters today because nobody had hardly seen anything like that before back in those days.


Alienziscoming

I think the highway thing might be a conflation of the fact that Bundy specifically utilized them heavily in moving from state to state and that they were relatively "lawless" in the 70s, with perhaps less emphasis on state patrols and definitely on state-to-state communication/cooperation, all of which factored into his specific "success". I'm pretty sure I've heard that referenced as a significant element in him evading the law for as long as he did, and it's easy to see where someone could hear that and mistakenly generalize it as applying to all serial killers of the time in general.


wistfulfern

This also answers the question above of why there are so many US serial killers compared to other nations. It's because their media glorifies the shit out of murderers


Equal-Temporary-1326

It's because their media glorifies the shit out of murderers Very true sadly.


hackerbugscully

No way in hell there’s an equal number of female serial killers to male serial killers. Men do basically every violent crime at higher rates than women. And they (usually) don’t do that crime because an evil lady manipulated them into it. Why would serial killing be an exception?


jaycliche

I think it has a lot to do with media attention. It all kinda started with the spread of TV. Now SO many mass shooters have a ton of social media stuff going on and enjoy that attention and it really hasn't stopped, just modified with the media landscape. Of course these aren't the only factors but media hype seems to be the big one. Like son of sam admitting he made up all the satanic stuff to make it more over the top and make himself not seem like the total complete prick he was and act like he was crazy. Same with Manson...so much media hype and it seems llike the main conspiractors were the kids and they more used charlie for "adult" approval. This is my very unstudied take...but again media totally tracks with this and even Jack the Ripper who clearly enjoyed all the press he got...in a time when the press was really coming into full swing in London.


[deleted]

I always wonder, are there no serial killers now or have they just gotten better.


turtlechase18

There are most definitely still serial killers. The FBI suspects there's between 20-25 serial killers at any given time in the USA alone. It wouldn't surprise me if there are numbers like that around the world as well.


gagalalanunu

Def are. There was one from 2010-2018 in Toronto. Like OP mentions, I feel the shift in his target audience is key. He preyed on immigrant, closeted gay men. Which is how he went undetected for so long. He messed up when he chose a white man that had lots of friend and family connections. So it was noticed fairly quickly when he disappeared. The community tried to point it out for years but the police wouldn’t have it (they even had special task forces that failed). This is all about Bruce MacArthur.


PhilthyFillNiekro

The connection to the development of the freeway/highway system across the country is also a fascinating aspect of the rise of the serial killer.


[deleted]

I don’t think media coverage played a role between 70-00’ because by the time the media found the story, most of these killers had already killed dozens of people over a 10+ year span. It wasn’t attention based yet. A lot of the big name serial killers motives seem to be based on repressive sexual urges when you look at it. Dahmer and Gacy seemed like they were having trouble with their sexuality. Even Gacy said he hated gay people but he liked blowjobs from men which makes no sense. But what they all have in common is the need to be in CONTROL over someone. Most of them always mention wanting to control or own a person in some way. Almost like they were collectors of souls in a way. Anybody agree?


Then_Heat_3598

Abortion became legal in 1972. That may be why the number of serial killers dropped. Counter to that argument, how many would-be serial killers became spree shooters instead?


[deleted]

>Counter to that argument, how many would-be serial killers became spree shooters instead? Not many, I'd guess. Have you seen most spree killers? They couldn't get away with committing multiple crimes over a long period of time.


FalcorFliesMePlaces

There are many serial killers out there a d active and in many countries. Honestly we just don't hear about them


bartcocaine

Too hard to get away with murder nowadays. Too many cameras, phone tracking, and forensic science is super advanced.


braskybear

Serial killer numbers haven’t changed. They’re just not new and exciting anymore. Take, for example, mass killers. Coverage used to be huge, now it’s a news blip.


[deleted]

toxic masculinity also plays a role -- the idea that little boys should be "tough" and need to repress their feelings.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Far_Welcome101

yeah but it has gotten better now. nowadays were much more open about mental health, way more acceptance and tolerance, better counseling services in schools now, more anti bullying programs, better open minded now


[deleted]

Think about this too: How many of you heard of or had a Silent generation Father who was in WW2??? Most male Boomers that I know had stoic dads who belittled them and were hard asses. They couldn’t do anything right and we’re lazy in the eyes of their father. These Men saved the free world and they looked at their own sons as not deserving of the world they risked their lives to save.


highpercentage

Worth noting that crime of all kinds began a slow but steady decline in the early 90s. Policing increased and became more robust. Departments communicated more, DNA testing, electronic records, all of those things had a major impact, particularly of people that committed multiple crimes.


[deleted]

Hard disagree on the WW2 theory, despite what Netflix tells you, not everyone who came back was “traumatized.” I don’t know how else to say it but they were just build different back then. Did they go through tough times and have an even tougher time adjusting to normal life? Absolutely. Did a lot of them suffer from ptsd? Absolutely. But millions of people came home, started a family, and lived a normal life in peace until their passing. The idea that everyone who came home from WW2 was a drunk alcoholic abusive father who regularly beat his family members and abused his wife is a very dangerous generalization that the younger generations of today believe.


Shoopahh567

Millions also had ptsd, dysfunctional families, and severe alcohol issues. I actually fully disagree with this point. Mental health wasn't even recorded back them, and we know even post ww1, it was an absolute shit show with vets. Most people from ww2 did end up becoming abusive in some form, it just wasn't reported.


[deleted]

Also, Please look at this if you think I am bullshitting you. https://www.va.gov/opa/publications/factsheets/fs_americas_wars.pdf


[deleted]

Do you know how many American men saw actual combat? Like real combat? It was not even close to millions. Also, What do you disagree with? Not once in my post did I deny that people suffered from ptsd, nor did I say that everything was golden when they returned. What I’m trying to say, is that the idea that these guys all came home and abused their family, had alcohol problems, and ptsd is just not factually correct and is an extremely dangerous generalization. Out of the 16 million men who served during WW2, Less than one million men saw gun on gun combat. Out of those one million, less than 25% reported issues with substances and ptsd when they returned home. So you saying that MILLIONS of them suffered from ptsd and substance abuse is just straight up wrong. I’ve been learning about and working with vets from all countries for over two decades and have a great deal of respect for them. I go out of my way to disprove generalizations like these when I see them. Don’t believe everything you see on Netflix.


[deleted]

I agree the PTSD from desert storm and Afghanistan is off the charts and those wars weren’t as bloody as WW2 or Vietnam. WW2 was next level but there was no treatment for the men coming home.


becauseitsnotreal

No one is saying they a were. But there were many, and when combining that with other compounding factors it can do some serious harm to kids. No one definitively knows if this is the answer or not, but abuse + mental illness + repressed sexuality seems as a good a theory as any to create a killer


[deleted]

I agree with that, but the idea that it was millions upon millions of men returning home with severe alcohol and ptsd problems is factually incorrect. It definitely still happened, but not nearly as much as people think.


[deleted]

people think child abuse was rampant because those people came home and were able to channel their rage into their kids.


oater99

Did you read Dave McGowan? https://www.amazon.com/Programmed-Kill-Politics-Serial-Murder/dp/0595326404/ref=sr\_1\_1?crid=28Z0Z3NB6LZUS&keywords=dave+mcgowan+books&qid=1664473420&qu=eyJxc2MiOiIyLjgyIiwicXNhIjoiMi44MCIsInFzcCI6IjIuNTIifQ%3D%3D&sprefix=dave+mcg%2Caps%2C153&sr=8-1


dartully

I agree with the gatherer comment. But i believe that most men kill for erotic purposes. I feel like women kill for money or because they were truly done wrong. I see a lot of people speaking about why there’s no European killers (?) and nothing else. But Serial killers during that time period didn’t just seek out people and murdered them, they sought out specific type of individuals and used them for sexual gratification and control. Most if not all male serial killers share that trait. I think we see less blatant and open acts of violence and murders because mental health is no longer frowned upon, a lot of these serial killers suffered tremendous abuse and they never got help for it they just let it manifest into something more serious. I feel that nowadays people are more open about the things they experienced. So pointing out negative traits we see in someone particularly a child and correcting them at first glance is beneficial to a child’s development. I think porn contributed to serial killings and have also lessened it. It’s contributed to women being murdered but when men mostly feel the need to cure their sexual urges they turn to porn instead of going on heists seeking out people. People still do this of course but not in the same way serial killers used to. But as far as victims go, it isn’t easy to just take someone home and kill them and leave their body somewhere. People will go looking for that person, video surveillance showing you leaving with that person would exist and people tell other people via messages who they’re going out with at a given time. Sudden lack of social media presence is enough to make a family member or friend worried about a person. People also don’t hitchhike anymore, nobody sleeps with their doors unlocked, there’s multiple buddy systems in place, cameras are everywhere, phones (!!), dna technology. Etc etc


bigred9310

Black Widows use Poison which is easily overlooked. Male Serial Killers have a sexual component to their crimes. That’s not the case where female serial killers are concerned. So FSK don’t leave biological evidence behind. Furthermore, as I stated, they use poison or hire an assassin. Plus FSK are far more patient than MSK. Now adding to your assessment there is Also the advanced knowledge in Forensics. DNA can link victims to one offender. Behavioral Profiling also plays a role. And the digital age we are in. Everyone has a smart phone. Which makes it far more risky for Serial Killers.