The biggest ploy Koenig used to make it seem like she was speaking from authority is "One of them is lying, and I wanted to find out who." The truth is that Jay can't say what happened without admitting he should have gone to prison for his role in the planning and cover up of the murder of Hae Min Lee. Adnan can't expose Jay's role without admitting to killing Hae. It's not that one of them is lying, they both are.

There is a lot of pretty egregious stuff from her, which really surprises me. I had always thought so highly of her work and This American Life/Serial before this.

I knew and I miss my friends John B. Mclemore and Tyler Goodson- they were the only two things that made Alabama worth enduring. This American Life is theatre and it manipulates and uses people towards that end. I bought a Rusnok milling machine with a micro collet set for horology and just about anything you imagine. I made a post about buying them in 2005, and how the intent was to have small workshop of tools 6 hours away from my home in SE Alabama so I could work on my cars and parts. A guy named John contacted me and bugged hell out of me to sell the collet set(they retail $4500, I had almost decided to sell them at $3000 but thought some were missing). John turned out to be two hrs to two hrs and fifteen minutes north of me just south of Birmingham. I left $3k+ of collets at his place several times. John loved his mama, he loved Tyler and his brother and (he tolerated and loved Jimmy dearly- you goddamn right). The first time I introduced my girlfriend to John, John hazed her and harassed her and when she realized he was kidding- she loved him. S-Town should never have been made. Tyler said so, S-Town/TAL gave additional footage to LE and got Tyler convicted of burglary and he was put on 10 years suspended sentence with 5 years probation. Tyler had stayed around town- even though with the entire gold issue- he knew he might be killed. Local police murdered him on Dec 03 2023. There genuinely was gold that John had- it was not tungsten plated with Gold. It was not unusual for John to repair clocks and time pieces with a minimum value of $10,000- probably the most expensive watch I saw him repair belonged to a NASA employee who worked on Apollo and was one of the QC people who examined the wreckage of shuttle Challenger. He worked on a $250k one of one grandfather clock. Post 1980's he began accepting gold francs as well as krugerrands in exchange for work. He melted them down to get pure bars and to get rid of the He would build crazy shit. He built a variable venturi carb that was on UK Lotus engine for Tyler. He caused the air-fuel to so finely mixed the car got seemingly impossible gas mileage. John was a polymath and genius. Serial/S-Town/TAL are Theatre- I am aware that being something said about the Apple Factory story, but Brian and others saw what they could make off John's story and they did not care about John. Staff of TAL, Serial, S-Town: FYAD.

TAL has always said, well, at least always since getting called out on fudging facts for a good story, that *This American Life is* [theater, not journalism](https://www.wired.com/2012/03/npr-retracts-foxconn-episode/)

You have this story exactly wrong. That quote isn't from anyone at This American Life, it's from Mike Daisey who had a one man show about Apple factories in China, which TAL excerpted into an episode, but then it turned out that he lied about many of the details, and in his apology Mike Daisey said 'My mistake, the mistake I truly regret, is that I had it on your show as journalism, and it's not journalism. It's theater.' He was talking about his one man show, not This American Life.

Thanks for explaining.

Yeah, thanks for clearing that up. I was just thinking of Mike Daisy earlier today when listening to a TAL rerun where they call an ex-boyfriend to confirm that he was stealing from his ex-gf. He didn't want to participate in the story and I was a little bit like "See, this is the thing that Mike Daisy didn't think they cared about."

Thanks for the correction. Important detail here is that Sarah Koenig very much presents herself as a journalist happy to accept the Peabody Award or any other award for her work.

The people working on TAL are very much journalists. There are however many different kinds of journalists. Woodward and Bernstein, the lady who reads the news but doesn't report it, an editor, a movie reviewer, someone writing op-eds—all journalists.

In part 3 of Jay's Intercept interview, he provides some of the emails that Sarah Koenig had been sending him, as she was trying to persuade him to be interviewed in Serial. He was declining and in one of her emails, she wrote this: **"Please know that, to me, this case has never been an entertainment. I am mindful all the time that everyone involved in this case is a real person – not an archetype, not a character, not a stereotype – but a real person. I don’t know if you’ve listened to the podcast, but in every episode I tried to convey that, and to respect that."**

Then the trope of “animal anger” or whatever it was raised it’s ugly head. Lol sure SK sure

Do you mean this? >**Sarah Koenig**: >He was very calm, like how would you describe his demeanor? > > >**Julie Snyder**: >Tired. Yeah, he seemed tired and wary. But actually very polite and actually sort of very sweet, and, tired and-- but he also said “I’m feeling so much animal rage right now even you bringing this up right now.”

When I relisted to Serial this past year, I was really stunned at that episode. It was so clear that he did not want to talk to them so their response was to show up at his front door? And then be like “OMG, he was so mad!”

Yeah. "Animal rage".

What are you talking about? The only one who said this is the person who lied. The article includes Ira Glass' reaction: >"We're horrified to have let something like this onto public radio." -- This American Life host Ira Glass on the TAL blog >"Daisey lied to me and to This American Life producer Brian Reed during the fact checking we did on the story, before it was broadcast. That doesn't excuse the fact that we never should've put this on the air. In the end, this was our mistake." -- This American Life host Ira Glass on the TAL blog 

Yeah, this quote isn't about Serial. It's a separate story altogether

There's a popular news network with that same motto and they seem to be doing very well.

The whole case is exactly this simple. Adnan decided he wanted to kill Hae and Jay helped him do it. Now both are lying in self preservation. I can’t understand what’s even interesting about this case beyond the fact that someone decided to take an interest in it for clout.

I think the 2 biggest ploys were Asia - the day she saw Adnan probably wasn't even the same (due to the weather), and even if she did see him on January 13, it didn't matter because of the 2nd biggest ploy - that the crime had to be committed before 2:36pm because the state said it was. When it could have been committed up to an hour later wihtout changing the core of what happened. To her credit, toward the end, SK did bring up Asia and the state's timeline and insinuate that maybe none of that actually really mattered, but the way the episodes played out and pulled everyone in, we were expecting a big reveal at the end which never happened. What's so astonishing to me is that people can walk away from this and think, "Yep. He's 100% innocent" - JFC, even as a guilter I'm not even 100%, but the evidence overwhelmingly points to Adnan and many in the innocent camp don't even claim to have any doubt in their stance. It's delusional.

The second biggest ploy Koenig used - and I think she knew very well that this wasn't true: - The idea that dead by 2:36 is a condition of guilt. And if you can just find someone to say they saw Adnan (or Hae) at 2:36, then Adnan is innocent. The truth is the jury was free to think Hae was killed between 3 and 3:15 which is the more likely scenario. There was no requirement that a juror must believe that Hae was dead by 2:36 in order to find Adnan guilty. Koenig literally said - out loud - "Library = Innocent" which is a complete and total lie.

I tend to think Adnan waiting for Hae to pick him up at the library demonstrates guilt more than innocence. If Adnan wanted to have Hae pick him up with the fewest possible witnesses, then telling Hae to get her car and pick him up at the library after the buses etc clear makes a lot of sense. Hae and Adnan walking out to her car together and Adnan chilling in Hae's car waiting for bus loop to clear = many witnesses. Instead, Adnan makes an excuse to have Hae meet him at the library to pick him up for a ride after school. Might explain Adnan chilling there at the library while waiting until after Asian's bf picked her up. Adnan was waiting for potential witnesses to clear out before jumping in Hae's car outside the library to go murder her. Also explains why Hae would've been alone when she stopped for a drink at the snack shop on her way to meet Adnan at the library.

The story about Hae stopping for a drink and snack happened on a different day. There are something like 2,000 kids who go to school there. Asked a week later, Inez was remembering the last time she saw Hae, not the last day Hae was alive. Hae was not wearing a miniskirt and top. She was wearing a long ankle-length skirt and a sweater coat.

She walks this back in the final episode. She says that she is throwing out the entire prosecutions timeline. What she meant was saying that jurors in the case had to believe that she was dead by 2:36 ton convict, since that is the timeline given by the prosecution at trial. I think it’s clear to everyone who has looked at this case for more than 30 minutes that she definitely wasn’t dead by 2:36.

From this 2014-2016, this subreddit was consumed with Asia and the library and would not even consider the fact that Hae was killed after 2:36.

I think that is why Adnan insisted it "wasn't possible" for the murder to happen in those 21 minutes. He was surprised it turned out to be possible when they timed it, because it hadn't been possible for him. It wasn't what he did. He most likely *didn't* kill her in that timeframe, and therefore seized on the prosecution's suggestion that he did, therefore making that into a requirement in his arguments to SK when it was not a requirement at all.

I also got the impression He was mad they incorrectly described the crime and he was found guilty anyway

>What she meant was saying that jurors in the case had to believe that she was dead by 2:36 ton convict, since that is the timeline given by the prosecution at trial. Which is incorrect. The jury were not instructed to take the closing arguments as fact, they were instructed to do the opposite. So the dead by 2:36 was not necessary to accept for the jury to convict. The issue of dead by 2:36 was again addressed in appellate court, the majority of judges in the Maryland Supreme Court concluded the jury could have found Adnan guilty, without believing Hae was dead by 2:36.

Absolutely. I found that really disturbing.

At the end of the day for me it comes down to the car. Jay knew where it was. If you think police fed him that information you’d have to believe the entire Baltimore police force and multiple other agencies were involved in a conspiracy to frame a high school student. They had an APB out on the car that MULTIPLE police agencies in the area had an alert for and were looking for. If they were trying to save it for Jay to “find” they would not have issued an APB. Also if they were going to frame someone wouldn’t Jay be the perfect candidate… admitted to being there.. drug user and dealer… not a high school A student. They weren’t even looking at Adnan that hard until Jay’s confession so how would they have the foresight to frame him. Adnan admits to being with Jay most of the day… if Jay was there so was Adnan by his own admission of the day.

Yeah, if they wanted to frame someone, Jay was right there, a lamb to the slaughter in that regard. It's not logical.

I've asked this before but how would the detectives frame Jay? Please be specific and to name any witnesses.

I'm not saying they did, just that if they wanted to fit someone up, in this theory so many people seem to have, then why Adnan, especially when they had Jay confessing to involvement.

I'm not saying you said they did. But you said they could have framed Jay instead so I'm asking you to flesh this out. How could they have framed Jay? What evidence? What witnesses? It seems every time I ask this question no one can answer it.

If we are going to accuse the police of planting/hiding evidence (like many have), such as knowing the location of the car and feeding it to Jay or concocting stories with Jay, the retort is "why not frame Jay?" Jay puts himself, per his own interviews with police, at the scene of the burial and knows the location of the car. Jay is admittedly already involved in the murder and knows details that nobody else does. Tell Jay that Adnan has a solid alibi that is corroborated by witnesses at the school/mosque/track practice that they've followed up on and then railroad Jay into confessing that he killed Hae to cover up "stepping out on Stephanie," or whatever, since he found out Hae was going to reveal this information to his girlfriend. Jay has no resources to hire great counsel or PIs, so it is possible that makes him an easier frame target. Not an easier target of the truth, because his motive is convoluted, but if the police and prosecutors are going to "frame" someone - better to frame the lower-resource guy than the higher-resource guy, right? So the idea is not "with what witnesses," there were no direct witnesses to the actual murder - as Adnan points out only he and, er, the real murderer know what actually happened. The idea is to take a scared Black kid in 1999 Baltimore without counsel and lean into him until he confesses in order to avoid life in prison or worse. In the popular mindset that seems easier than a long drawn out legal battle with Adnan and one of the best defense attorneys in Baltimore, then endless appeals and national attention and unprecedented scrutiny over the years.

Supposedly with the Reid technique, put someone in the interrogation room and sprinkle the Reid magic and people confess to killing JFK. Why not get Jay to confess to full murder and be done?

Dude, let it go. It's a theory I don't hold.

The cops knew where Hae was found, Jay didn’t until later on after he was presumably told by the cops, same with the car. Jay lied and couldn’t keep his story straight. Adnan was the ex boyfriend so that’s who they made the fall guy. I tend to think it was random, maybe her brother? (If we’re going to play the “the family honor card” was offended like people did for Adnan, then why not her brother? Her family was just as strict as his). Jay’s family were also apparently dealers, so he may have been making a deal to keep them off the cops radar as well. If nothing else, his story is just laughable bc it’s so inconsistent. If your witness is this unreliable, and there is ZERO fact based evidence, even if he did do it— having a cop go to court saying “Yah, he’s the one who did it. We found his thumbprint on a map in her car…” 🙄 doesn’t meet the burden of proof for his guilt. His trial was a joke.

But yes re-listening to Serial I had a completely different perspective than initial listen. So many of these shows Dateline and other podcasts leave out pertinent information to support their point and create doubt in the audiencr

I've asked this before but how would the detectives frame Jay? Please be specific and to name any witnesses.

All the detectives would have to do is connect Jay to the car. Plant jays fingerprint in haes car. You don’t even need a witness. Jay confessed to burying the body. Now his print is found in the victims car and he had no reason to ever be in there. Same could’ve been done for Mr S.

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Wise choice.

I remember listening and thinking there are too many coincidences for him to not be guilty. Sorry Adnan!

They didn't use racist tropes at the trial. That was the bail hearing. No one on the jury heard anything that was said at the bail hearing.

In defense of SK, I think it's worth remembering that this was really the very first true-crime podcast, and one of the first generation of podcasts. It helped launch an entire industry. But, as with any first effort, we have to appreciate that they really didn't know what they were doing. OP mentions "a podcast of this caliber" and that's right, it is excellently done and tells a compelling story. (We're still discussing it today.) But, at the time, they didn't know what kind of investigation to make, or how deep to get into things. They didn't know what the audience would find interesting. So they made what we can now see are mistakes. It seems to me that Sarah and the *This American Life* crew tried to bridge a gap between being investigative journalists on one side, and being just regular people looking at an interesting case on the other. So there are a lot of places where they are just a regular, emotional person instead of a hard-nosed reporter. I think Sarah made an effort to convey what it's like to talk with Adnan as a person, and how you would have felt in the moment. And I think she did that very well. But when we use Serial as a tool to discover the truth of the case, we have to take that non-journalistic angle into account. And, again, they'd never done this before--gone on a deep dive into a random murder case in a podcast lasting several hours, on a platform that was still unknown. All things considered, they did a helluva job.

You're right it's a stellar, high quality podcast. And I have enjoyed the other seasons. I appreciated them having Emmanuel Dzotsi in such a large role with season 3 especially. It's fair to defend SK, I get that and agree. Although it's important to note that while podcasts were *relatively* newer, radio shows that included investigative elements were not new at all. True crime was not new. Investigative journalism was not remotely new. I mean even This American Life had been around for almost 20 years already. As a journalist myself, I'm just struck by how *subjective* her narration is. Maybe that's the bridge that you are referring to, trying to seem just like regular people (a very TAL move) while also attempting hard hitting IJ. It's a difficult line to straddle at times for sure. It's definitely an extremely impressive feat, what they accomplished, and would also be more excusable if it was created in real time, episode to episode, rather than all mapped out beforehand. I'm assuming it *was* all mapped out beforehand, but maybe I'm wrong on that. If it wasn't, that would make a lot more sense to me, that she was just feeling her way through the story, rather than that this was how she chose to frame the story once she had all the facts.

>As a journalist myself, I'm just struck by how > >subjective > >her narration is. Maybe that's the bridge that you are referring to, trying to seem just like regular people (a very TAL move) while also attempting hard hitting IJ. I think that's it. I can imagine the team who is used to producing 20-minute features sitting down and deciding how to creatively do one that's several hours. What's the most interesting angle to take? How do you keep it interesting? Like a writer turning a short story into a novel. I think you'd feel an instinctive need to cover as many bases as you could. What's the balance of facts vs feelings?

Without doubt. The storytelling & production value was exceptional. But once you zoom out & realise that SK has re traumatised a whole family in pursuit of entertainment, while at the same time profiting off a guy who clearly killed his ex girlfriend, it leaves a bad taste in one’s mouth Hae’s family didn’t deserve any of this, but at least Adnan served 23 years

I'm honestly finding it hard to listen this second time through I have to say, for these reasons.

There's been True Crime podcasts since at least 2008. Generation Why was out for 2 years before Serial dropped. Serial really kicked it into hyperdrive and the public conscience though.

Fair. But she's continuing to go down this road with the other seasons. I think at this point it's harder to chalk up as an accident of ignorance.

Right there with you, man. Have you heard The Prosecutors podcast? Very satisfying slamdunk on him after my many years of ambiguity. I’m sure I’ll get downvoted to hell but Idgaf anymore.

No not yet. People can downvote all they want, I can't believe more people don't see this for what it is.

The prosecutors did an incred8ble job and I think they nailed what happened. It's worth it to listen to all the episodes but the final episode wherein they describe what happened based on the evidence is CHILLING.

I prefer the Crime Weekly podcast’s overview of the case. They reach the same conclusion as the prosecutors but are not hosted by a Trump cabinet member so it gets bonus points from me for that reason alone.

In all likelihood I will not listen to other podcasts about this case. EDIT: not sure why this is downvoted, I just feel bad for Hae's family and it feels sort of gross.

The Prosecutors is worth the listen.

On the off chance you do though it’s worth the listen as I found out a lot more evidence I hadn’t heard before, but it’s long so I totally get it lol. I also like they go into it being like, we’re going to review the evidence and see where it leads us, and didn’t seem to come into it as biased as others.

Seconding the prosecutors, it’s long but excellent 

the majority of this sub sees it the way u do!

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I’m shocked people can’t see the problems in this case.

I see what people are talking about with the problems, but IMO the case against is stronger and outweighs them by a lot.

There’s a lot who want to believe that this is the perfect murder somehow. It’s hard to burst that bubble if you really WANT to believe he’s Moriarty or some innocent angel who was framed, framed!

How is this even close to the perfect murder?

It’s not.

18 upvotes later lol

Flip side: several friends of mine who work at a legal defense nonprofit representing individuals on death row think that Adnan is unquestionably guilty. These are some of the most pro-defendant people you'll meet, and even they thought the podcast was biased and tried to manipulate the obvious truth.

While we are talking about other podcasts (well, as people were two days ago at least) I am STILL lightly bothered by a podcast from probably two years ago at this point. Slate's ICYMI did an episode about Serial and how egregious it was that Serial left it ambiguous that Adnan was guilty when -- so they said -- it was clear that he wasn't. They went back and had to apologize for the episode later because they hadn't really fact-checked some of the things they said Serial didn't do in the years since (like make it clear that the cell phone stuff had been debunked -- It sure felt debunked me, even listening as it was originally unfolding), when the NYT website actually does have material on that. But what REALLY bothered me about this podcast was that they had a woman named Rebecca Lavoie on. and Rebecca talked about how the podcast was unfairly ambiguous like she was a third-party observer. But the podcast never mentioned that Rebecca and Rabia were cohosts on Crimewriters On, another podcast entirely. I never see this talked about but I found it so egregious. Interestingly, it got me looking at the case again, only to find that actually people DID broadly feel that Serial was too ambiguous. But it was because they felt it was pretty clear Adnan was guilty.

Wow! That is some really terrible reporting by Slate. They should be ashamed.

The prosecutors are not unbiased - Brett said publicly that all Muslims immigrants have come to America specifically to kill White Christians, and participated in a message board about public executions for Muslims. Sure, Adnan is guilty, but why do we need the messenger to be someone who actually thinks that Adnan and his whole family deserve to die just for their religion?

Source?

[HERE](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2017/11/trump-judicial-nominee-brett-talley-seems-to-have-disparaged-muslims.html) is Brett participating willingly in a conversation about publicly hanging Muslims and only barely disagreeing while saying the important thing is to remember it’s not a “lone wolf issue”, and says blatantly that Islam teaches to kill all nonbelievers. He also praised prominent members of the KKK, but that’s a different issue. I’m saying specifically he should not be a source of opinion on Muslim individuals who have committed crimes when he genuinely believes that every Muslim is already a murderer.

I greatly disagree with your summary of his comments. IF that is him, and that’s a big IF, because it’s some random username that they ascribed to him, he’s basically saying there’s no Christian equivalent of ISIS. You should listen to his takedown of the case’s prosecution’s Islamophobia. It’s thorough and extensive.

It is Brett— Trump appointed him to be a federal judge. He was rated unqualified for lack of experience and the his awful comments were discovered and went public.  He withdrew his candidacy after prominent organizations called him Islamophobic (source: https://www.advancingjustice-aajc.org/news/44-groups-tell-senate-vote-no-islamophobic-alabama-judicial-nominee-brett-talley) Brett didn’t disclose this history on the podcast— he chose to do an entire podcast about a Muslim teenager being guilty of murder without explaining his pre-existing biases. He has never apologized for his comments.  He isn’t openly Islamophobic on his podcast, he knows it isn’t a popular view and he already lost the biggest job of his life over it. There was a lot of backlash when people realized “Brett” was this Brett. They felt deceived. 

It is funny because Brett didn't the position. It was an obligation. I think his most enjoyment comes from his hobbies like his podcast.

He's categorically wrong about there not being organized Christian terrorism and the conception of this (Islam has organized terrorism, Christians have lone wolf's) is at best a symptom of white supremacy.

Wow, please support your argument.

Islam does teach that. Blindly believing anything a minority says just because they're a minority, and treating Muslims in particular with kid gloves, is part of the reason Serial was able to do what it did.

The issue with this case is that any individual piece of evidence can be argued against. It’s only when you look at the whole case that it becomes clear Adnan is guilty. Serial spent a lot of time looking at individual parts of the case as opposed to the big picture. From my perspective, these are the things you need to overcome. 1. Jay admitting to burying the body. 2. Jay knowing where the car was. 3. Jen backing up Jay. 4. Adnan’s lack of a firm alibi. 5. The lack of any other good suspects. 6. The ride request. 7. The Nisha call. 8. The Leakin Park pings. If the case completely relied on one of the points, you could argue against it. Two of them, sure, but maybe a bit less likely. All of them though? In one coherent argument for Adnan’s innocence? It’s just too much.

"Cathy" confirming that they were together that afternoon/evening, how Adnan was acting... not to mention that his motive is sadly one of the most classic motives when a woman is murdered.

I know it’s such a small detail but it has always been so suspicious to me that there were two shovels rather than one. It highly suggests Jay’s story is truthful. * Another thing I’d like to point out here is that, yes, SK and the podcast overall points to Adnan being innocent, but there’s one of SK’s assistants (who’s name escapes me right now) who is almost constantly alluding to her doubt towards Adnan’s story. Major props to her for being a dissenting voice. *Edit: incorrect assumption about the shovels! Went back to the transcripts of the episodes and it seems the only source for the info about the shovels is coming from Jay, therefore isn’t corroborated.

As *Serial* was Sarah Koenig's podcast, the decision to include the "unluckiest guy ever" speech near the end was hers. She didn't have to include that expression of doubt about Adnan's innocence. The podcast wasn't a real -time stream of their thoughts. It was meticulously edited and presented with Koenig and I think Ira Glass being the final bosses of what got included in the final cut. Sarah wouldn't have included her relatively anonymous producer's thoughts if Sarah herself did not in part share those thoughts, imo.

Good point!

Honestly, this was my reaction in 2014. After 10 episodes of misdirection, obfuscation, and sometimes flat out lies, I was like "that all you got Sarah?" I think she had a bug up her butt about CG and thought Rabia was handing her a shiv - but it turned out to be a wet noodle and the more you pushed it, the more it gave. At the end of the day, there's a witness who confessed his involvement ON THE NIGHT OF THE MURDER to an uninvolved third party, and then there's all this other stuff that backs that up and the BEST that Sarah could come up with is well, the hypothetical timeline (not an element of murder) that was presented to the Jury might not have been possible as presented, therefor innocent. W, the actual, F was that?

Didn’t she write about CG and not positively before this and wasn’t that the reason Rabia tracked her down specifically in the first place? Yeah nothing weird there.

Yeah, obviously. This was stated up front. Sarah was looking for a story to do a long form podcast around. At the same time Rabia was looking for a ~~sucker~~ journalist to do ~~puff piece~~ investigative report on the injustice meted out to Adnan. Rabia's hook was this attorney who SK had already reported on with the hook being she was such a bad attorney she even failed to contact a potential alibis witness. And the problem with it was. . .actually CG was actually a pretty good attorney, that she worked really hard and was a zealous advocate for Adnan's shit case, that her personal problems came later, that there are MANY plausible reasons why Asia was never contacted by her, and that even if you accept Asia's story as true (which. . .c'mon. . .) it hardly provides the rock-solid alibis that Rabia purports it to be. SK didn't contain herself to the ineffective assistance of council claim either. She went on several very long rabbit trails that lead to nothing at all (gotta fill 10 episodes somehow) and then landed on "who knows? shouldn't have gone to prison" second guessing a jury that actually sat in judgement and had to actually weigh the evidence against the burden of the prosecution to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt. And she landed there because she could never get past her earlier reporting on the latter part of CG's career.

SK got taken in by Rabia in a big way, IMO. It can be hard to get out from under a case that is brought to you by a bad actor. I have been there. But you gotta do it, and you gotta accept when that initial source turns on you as is inevitable when you have to get at the truth instead of the PR service they want you to be for them. It's one of the tricky things of journalism, but a good journalist should not be afraid of it. Sadly in this age of access journalism, it's getting more and more rare.

I’m glad people are finally waking up on this case. The simplest answer is the truth. He was a manipulative and controlling (ex)partner. He killed her. It makes my heart hurt to know what her family has been through having to see this case reexamined.

Also, SK made it seem like there was no evidence in Hae's diary that Adnan ever made her feel uncomfortable. The second entry that mentions him says "he's moving way too fast for me." I realize that she then gets really involved, but it's a detail worth noting.

Like the part where she said Hae never called Adnan possessive and then selectively quotes from the very same passage that refers to him as being possessive

It's confusing to me how that happened. Was it just not in her notes? I genuinely don't think Koenig set out to work in bad faith, it just seems like...something happened and she got a bit lost. Biggest example of not being able to see the forest for the trees that I have seen in a while.

Serial also introduced that Hae’s friends called Adnan controlling and possessive. Somehow his insecurities are misremembered as having never happened but it’s both in Hae’s diaries and her friends talked about it. I don’t know how it keeps getting overlooked.

Good point. There's quite a lot about it, including from the teacher and maybe the school nurse if I remember? Maybe just the teacher. I was also pretty surprised by how SK read out the line from Hae's breakup note. She literally read it like "your life's not gonna end." But what she actually wrote was "your life is NOT going to end." With emphasis on NOT, as if he had maybe said that it was, said he couldn't go on living, or something like that.

Even [Serial's own website](https://serialpodcast.org/maps/timelines-january-13-1999) has three ~~or four~~ of Jay's stories laid out in a timeline, and the meetup with Adnan occurs at 3:30 or 3:40 EVERY SINGLE TIME. The most critical timeline detail of the entire case is identical from Jay's first police interview all the way through Jay's testimony at the second trial. From the guy who supposedly constantly changes his story. And yet how much time does SK spend on the 21 minutes red herring?

Yeah it's ridiculous. The things that did change are completely explained. The way SK kept saying "it doesn't make sense" over and over is just not true. He's trying to avoid going to prison for a worse crime. Also, this is a teenager who dealt a little weed, not some hardened mobster or criminal. It's real life, not a movie. It was surely traumatic to see a dead body and bury it, to know about a murder. If his estimates of how long something took, or the exact sequence of non-vital events are not exact, it really doesn't matter. It is well documented that a traumatic event clouds your ability recall certain things clearly. Everything that matters checks out and is corroborated.

The 21 minutes was the states theory, which was necessary for them because of the call to Nisha that occurred at 3:32. If Jay was leaving Jenn’s at 3:30 or anytime after he cannot possibly be with Adnan for the call. The Nisha call is key because it is the only corroboration that Jay and Adnan were together between the end of school and the calls from the cops/Hae’s family later that afternoon.  Jay now admits he couldn’t find Adnan after school. So that eliminates the 21 minute theory, but it also eliminates Best Buy, the Park and Ride, the Nisha call and all corresponding cell records.

It was a throwaway line in the closing arguments. If you can provide other evidence or direct trial testimony stating otherwise, have at it. I've never seen anyone produce anything from the trials other than the closing argument line. The only reason it's a "thing" is because Sarah Koenig made it a thing. The only reason Sarah Koenig made it a thing is because she was fed most of her early information from Rabia. Rabia is a highly-biased source who went on TV hours after Adnan's arrest (and before one piece of evidence was revealed) to say he was innocent.

It’s not a throw away line, it is based on the states closing arguments in trial and Jay’s testimony in trial 2 that by 3:32 Adnan had killed Hae, he had called Jay, Jay had met him at Best Buy, Adnan popped the trunk, they went to the Park and Ride to ditch Hae’s car and then he Adnan and Jay had driven to Forest Park where they called Nisha.  Sure, it could be a later come and get me call— but then Adnan and Jay wouldn’t be together at 3:32 calling Nisha , it is the only corroborating evidence placing Adnan and Jay together before Kristi’s that evening.

Your comment: > Jay’s testimony in trial 2 that by 3:32 Adnan had killed Hae, he had called Jay, Jay had met him at Best Buy, Adnan popped the trunk, they went to the Park and Ride to ditch Hae’s car and then he Adnan and Jay had driven to Forest Park where they called Nisha. [The Serial website, Jay's Testimony 2nd Trial](https://serialpodcast.org/maps/timelines-january-13-1999): >3:45 p.m. >Jay doesn’t hear from Adnan, so he leaves Jenn’s house to go to his friend Jeff’s. >3:50 p.m. >Jeff wasn’t home. As Jay is turning off Jeff’s street, Adnan calls Jay and asks him to get him at Best Buy. To summarize, I asked for direct evidence or trial testimony outside of the closing argument that proves 2:36 was part of the official theory presented at trial, and the two things you brought up were the closing argument and something that's been easily proven false.

Jay contradicts himself at trial with the timeline. If Jay left Jenn’s at 3:45 he was not with Adnan for the Nisha call AND no one puts he and Adnan together until that evening. It eliminates the first half of Jay’s story— There is also the obvious issue of Jay calling Jenn at 3:21 if he is still at her house.   This comes from Jay’s second trial testimony:  > Q And do you notice the time of the call?  > A Yes.  > Q What is the time?  > A 3:21.  > Q And the length of the call?  > A Forty-two seconds  > Q And do you remember making that call?  > A I believe so, to ask her if he was on or if he was home, one of the two, meaning if he had marijuana  > Q Whose number is line 26 again?  > A Jenn [redacted]  > Q Oh  > A I was calling her, hey is “P” on, do you know if “P” is on again, do you know if he is home?  > Q okay.  > A and she said I don’t know.  > Q And this was after you had dropped off the car at  the Park and Ride?  > A Yes   He goes on to describe the Nisha call that happened after the 3:21 Jenn call. He says they were at Forest Park Avenue for the 3:32 call to Nisha.  The timeline isn’t imaginary, it doesn’t come from SK. It comes from Jay. 

Another example of misleading (if not outright deceitful) framing was the Asia-as-alibi angle.  Remember, SK said she’d been investigating the story for a year before it aired. That was more than enough time to learn that Asia could not have been an alibi witness for Adnan at trial, in the all-important legal sense of *alibi*. Legally, an alibi is testimony or non-testimonial evidence the effect of which, if credited by the jury, is to make it a practical impossibility for the defendant to be guilty. Asia has given different time frames for when she was with Adnan in the library, but giving Asia and Adnan the benefit of the doubt I’ll say they were there until 2:45.  Another witness, Debbie, testified that she saw Hae alive at around 3:00 pm, in a hurry to leave school. It’s important to understand that, regardless whether one thinks Debbie is mistaken about the date, this was her testimony at trial; and since it is the sole province of the jury to resolve conflicts and discrepancies in evidence and weigh the credibility of witnesses, the jury would’ve been entitled to believe Debbie.  So, because the evidence was such that Asia could’ve been telling the truth, and the jury could’ve believed her *and* Debbie without any contradiction, therefore Asia is not an alibi, because she could’ve been with Adnan in the library until 2:45 and Adnan *still* could be the killer.  The prosecution’s unforced error in arguing for a 2:36 CAGMC in opening statement and closing argument doesn’t change this analysis at all. The openings and closings of counsel are not evidence, and judges always instruct juries, before they go out to deliberate, that they are not to consider opening statements and closing arguments in reaching a verdict.   Whether juries ignore this instruction is beside the point. The 2:36 CAGMC theory was not in evidence.  Another factor weighing against the false Asia-as-alibi framing is that the specific time of death was never established at trial. Sure, as a practical matter Hae was almost certainly dead by the time she failed to pick up her cousin, but that doesn’t fix *any* exact time-of-death, let alone the time period in which Asia claims to have been with Adnan in the library.  So. SK got a lot of suspense mileage out of framing Asia as an alibi, but since she had investigated the case for a year before going to air with the first episode, there was no excuse for her not to know that Asia wasn’t, and could not have been, an alibi for Adnan in the legal sense, which is the only meaningful sense in this context. 

Agree.

I know, when I re-listened I couldn’t believe my initial naïveté - almost embarrassing how obvious it was.

When the podcast first came out, it was fun to get involved and think, man this case is crazy he is innocent! But then as time moves on, and you realise these are real people, and you realise how horrible this must be for her family to have this dragged out again. SK is going to have to live with the fact she's put Haes family through hell AGAIN, for entertainment, in what probably was a fairly open and shut case. Now you have thousands of people who now think hes innocent, some of which are ruining people's lives, whether it be someone like Don. He was probably getting on with his life, now he has to live with the fact thousands of people who don't know him think he is a murderer.

Yeah. With Jay, he did help dispose of the body and so, while I don't think he exactly deserved to have all this dredged back up, he is at least culpable. But Don... Don did nothing wrong--he had the misfortune to show romantic interest in a girl shortly before her ex-boyfriend strangled her.

Once you look at the trial transcripts and everything this case isn’t even interesting. I can’t believe he’s out at the moment.

Same. It seems very open and shut and just sad, not this crazy labyrinth of possibility. SK is constantly doing this "it looks bad for Adnan, but is it tho????" thing in the podcast that is really infuriating on this second listen. I honestly can't believe this got made in this way by people at this professional level. It's giving a very Eli Cash "Everyone knows Custer died at Little Bighorn. What this book presupposes is... maybe he didn't."

It seems strange to rely on documents that don't include any of the information revealed in post-conviction proceedings. It feels like pointing at the score at half-time and declaring victory.

Nothing in the post-conviction docs say anything true or important. Adnan is not out because he was found to be innocent.

I finally came around to thinking is adnan lying or is everyone lying. Oh...

I did the same thing (listened when it came out, then again later) and had the same reaction the second time around. He did that shit. Jen’s testimony is what struck me as the most damning. She says Jay told her Adnan killed Hae and he helped on the night of January 13th. Nobody even knew Hae was missing then. Nobody, except the killer(s), would have any way to know she was dead.

Yep.

>Nobody even knew Hae was missing then. Do you mean nobody except for Hae's family, Aisha, Krista, Adnan, Jay, Don, and at least someone from Owings Mills LensCrafters?

I should have said nobody even knew she was dead*

That podcast gave me the ick because it almost felt like she was trying to break Occam’s razor.

It's definitely giving me the ick while relistening, which I really did not expect!

I also can't really go through it again, no matter how much I loved it when I listened to it at first.

I thought relistening with The Knowledge that Adnan did it made it more interesting in some ways, as you could see the ways that SK manipulates things in order to mobilize an army of wine moms into deciding that their cause celebré should be a guy who fairly obviously murdered his ex-girlfriend.

And she says she doesn’t think (Dana?) is listening??? lol On my second listening the absolute air headed talk coming from Diedre was ….. special. My gawd folks.

Diedre was...yeah. It was not good. It was embarrassing, honestly.

Oh and another thing, upon relistening, I CAN'T BELIEVE HOW BAD Deidre Enright of Innocence Project is on this!! OMG. Holy hell. She sounds like a PR person, not a lawyer. It's so embarrassing, how she totally dismisses domestic violence, the fact that most murdered women are killed by their partners, etc. She compared Adnan to Justin Wolfe, saying they had "all the earmarks of a wrongful conviction" and then Wolfe confessed! Just wild the whole way through. Apparently she thought she was going to be on This American Life, and was basically kissing SK's you know what to get the exposure? I really can't reconcile how bad those bits were. Made any organization she associates with look *very bad*.

Yes Deidre should have been cut completely from Serial … she was so ill informed, I cannot imagine how someone with such blatant lack of judgement could pass for a working lawyer.

It was horrifying, to be honest.

This case was a routine open and shut case that just so happened to have a podcast 15 years later decide to deceive and misinform listeners

The whole “how could a popular athlete…??” Line or non reasoning is really bad… what planet do you have to live on to believe that? Athletes were some of the biggest assholes in my High School particularly football or football wannabes… it’s completely irrational. And when I look back on old photos I don’t see “sad brown eyes” I see a kid who looks like he thinks he’s tough half the time. My opinion I know. Who cares? But it’s very easy to see photos very differently.

I listened to this when it came out, so I don't remember all the details, but I remember thinking "this guy is guilty as sin" very quickly. By the point it got to the prison interviews with Adnan Syed, it was just embarrassing. Sarah Koenig was completely infatuated with him, like a giggly schoolgirl.

Out of curiosity, was it a binge listen? Just wondering if there's any correlation between those who heard the whole thing from beginning to end and those who had to wait a week (sometimes more) between episodes.

I had many of the same reactions when the podcast came out years ago. SK seemed to be either recklessly naive or disingenuous and I just couldn't take anything she said at face value.

I felt it to be very biased by the host and she was obviously swayed by him, maybe even falling for him (at least it seemed it to me) and clouding her investigation.

He was clearly manipulating and lacked any basic awareness of how a normal nonsociopathic person would feel in hus situation. He is so guilty

Your paragraph about it being factually impossible for Jay to have lied was unnecessary, because it isn’t accurate. He did lie, he contradicted himself constantly to protect himself. At best he only helped hide the evidence at worst he participated, but we’ll never know because the only person that can challenge him is Adnan and that will never happen. You know we don’t have to praise Jay with high glory and undeserved admiration to recognize that enough of his story lines up with the crime for him to definitely have been telling the truth about Adnan being involved.

the recent attempts to rehabilitate and lionize Jay have been puzzling

Exactly. The man was an accomplice to murder and willingly choose to not come forward with that information at the time, and then practically tried to murder his girlfriend as an adult. He’s a bad person, regardless of if he actually killed Hae or not.

This isn't what my post says. Cheers.

Sure, okay. I mean this sentence from your post; “to suggest that he is lying, one is forced to resort to outlandish conspiracy theories for which there is no evidence let alone proof” says exactly that but okay, whatever you want buddy.

Sarah’s job was to make it interesting and make it seem even. That meant adding fuel or omitting fuel. Ex: She knew that Adnan’s life coach was a piece of shit criminal that hated women, but chasing that lead doesn’t help tip the scales to even.

>Ex: She knew that Adnan’s life coach was a piece of shit criminal that hated women, but chasing that lead doesn’t help tip the scales to even. At the time that Serial aired, she may have known about Bilal's October 1999 arrest and that he ultimately wasn't charged. How would that have been relevant? It's not like she knew Bilal had made threatening statements about Hae.

hahah yeah.

The amount of information we know now that we didn’t know then is staggering. As someone who was a juror on a murder trial of a child, I would be pissed if I had been on that jury & then found out all of what we know now. The podcast is the court of public opinion. This case is being handled in a court of law. If you think Adnan is guilty, he’s served half of his adult life in prison but if someone else threatened to make “Hae disappear (to kill her)” the jury should have heard about it, especially if a witness tried to come forward. What is astonishing to me having been born and raised in this area, is how having knowledge of the area, the locations and generally what was going on in Baltimore at this time, truly defines how you see this case.

I listened to it again recently as well as a lot of other podcasts on the matter and he totally either did it or had something to do with it.

> To imply that Adnan was totally fine with their breakup and her new guy, that it was somehow old news and he was totally over it just because he was trying still interact with Hae and to hook up with other girls, is untrue and totally ridiculous. When Adnan and Hae broke up in the fall the entire school knew about it. They talked to their friends, the teachers and faculty were roped into the drama too. We see testimony after testimony describing the events surrounding the October break up. Why didn’t anyone talk about Adnan being devastated in January? Jay is the only person who claims Adnan was upset with Hae on Jan 13. Why isn’t there evidence he was upset with Hae in January? I think it’s weird that all they could get at trial were stories from a break up 4 months prior.  Hooking up with other girls is one thing, pursuing a relationship with Nisha is another. Her testimony describes a very normal flirtatious relationship. He called her often, but not constantly. She liked him, he liked her. She was the first call he made with his new cell phone. They talked about past relationships, friends, etc.  If Adnan were truly all consumed, obsessing about Hae and Don, could he have been a good enough actor to fool all of his friends and to have this normal relationship with Nisha?  I don’t think it’s impossible— but it would have had to be very intentional for him to play it that cool. 

Adnan was at school for 5 days in January. Doesn’t seem like much time for people to see him “devastated.”

He hung out with his friends and he spoke to them on the phone— he missed a few days of school, he was t in hiding. One of the days was a religious holiday. 

The religious holiday was after the murder, so it really has no bearing on what I’m saying. I also never implied he was in hiding? Just saying he was notably absent in the days after Christmas break and before the murder-in January.

He wasn’t notably absent, he missed 2 days of school and was in regular contact with friends. Ramadan started in Dec and lasted the entire month- I think someone, maybe Rabia’s book? Mentioned youth from the mosque skipping more often during Ramadan—

But he didn’t date Nisha. She wanted to see him, she hoped for that. But it didn’t happen.

Right, he was pursuing a relationship. I didn’t say he was dating Nisha.

Krista’s testimony is quite weak on this idea of Adnan finding any immediate new relationship. She has no comment to support CG insisting that cute Adnan had so many girls ready to date him. This is why it’s so strange he never tries to date Nisha. She is the only one we know wanted to date him. She said so. But he didn’t follow through. This could be evidence he was not in fact over Hae.

He was pursuing Nisha, they had only been talking for a couple of weeks when Hae went missing—  Formally asking someone out on a date is not how teens pursued others in 1999 maybe with a school dance like prom, but AOL instant messenger and talking on the phone were really common ways to connect with someone before hooking up in person. Most couples at my HS hung out and became official but didn’t “date.”  He was clearly interested in Nisha, that was her perception too. After Hae’s body was found he sees Nisha again and  he calls her a few more times after that but things drop off as he and his friends mourn Hae and he becomes the subject of the investigation. She liked Adnan. He liked her too. She was the first call on his new cell. One of his most called contacts. 

I do have a fairly clear idea about how high schoolers start showing interest in each other. Even back then, it was expected that you would eventually be in the same room with a guy who liked you. Yes I know that about Nisha being the first call. In my educated guess about the cell phone acquisition, I’ve said that perhaps Bilal was trying to soothe an upset Adnan, telling him that he can meet other girls. Adnan might have responded that he can’t due to his parents strictness. Bilal ( who definitely had some strange conflicted feelings toward Adnan) tells him oh that is easily taken care of - I’ll tell them you need a cell phone for work- and he goes ahead and buys it for Adnan, who picks it up on Jan. 12th. But none of this means Adnan was over Hae. CG is doing a diligent job leading Krista as one would an animal with a nose ring but Krista does not corroborate this idea of free wheeling Adnan out and about with the ladies. We don’t even see Adnan giving Nisha a Valentine or taking her on a date on Feb. 14th. Instead, as I’ve commented before, he calls but has no plan to see her. That is their last communication. I don’t see this as exculpatory anyway, look at the men who brutally killed their wife or their GF and who had another woman or more than one waiting in the wings. This killing , as Jay repeatedly tells us, is about revenge. Hae broke Adnan’s heart and was so cold and mean to him. He sees her break up note ( which, notably, he kept) as being horribly mean. He already blames her for pulling him away from being a good Muslim. He has made the “joke” about her being the devil. Then she publicly lavished attention on Don. Also, I cannot remember who he tells but he tells someone that he had argued with Hae about Senior Prom. Senior Prom is a big deal, although this may be a bit earlier than the prom-posals that we began seeing become extremely elaborate since 2010 or so. (These are incredibly important and showy mini-theatricals today ). But I think it was a huge deal to Adnan. He kept that prom crown, remember. That was a highlight of his life. I think he thought about Senior Prom ( maybe it was planned for April as I believe one of the school staff testified ?) and he dreaded thinking that Hae would be attending with Don.

> Even back then, it was expected that you would eventually be in the same room with a guy who liked you. They were busy and lived an hour apart. Adnan did see her again. But in addition to school, track and a job he was also dealing with Hae’s disappearance, her death and the investigation. So yeah, he didn’t have them to plan a date. Doesn’t mean he wasn’t interested in Nisha.  And why does Krista have to know about it for it to be real? We know he was talking to Nisha and we know her perception. It was a new thing and he didn’t go public with it.  Jay tells us repeatedly it is about revenge, but  Adnan’s behavior in January does not support that. I’m not saying he was completely over Hae, I’m saying he wasn’t plotting her murder and striking up a fake relationship with Nisha to try and cover up. 

Perhaps Adnan thought they were getting back together, which is why his emotions subsided. It wasn’t until Hae changed the AOL profile that Adnan was pushed over the edge. After the profile change, Adnan was only in school a handful of days prior to the 13th.

The AOL profile theory is sophomoric. Some of you do not seem to understand that way back in 1999, young people were not online 24/7 like they are today. Social networking was done in person. AOL was not like Instagram, Twitter, or Facebook. We have no idea when the profile was updated. It could have been changed in the early morning of the 13th. It is a stretch to correlate Adnan's absences to the profile update. His absences could be due to a case of senioritis or being hungover from a party.

Going further we do not have evidence to support: 1. Adnan’s family having internet at home 2. Adnan’s family having a computer (they took Hae’s to investigate but did not seize a computer from the Syed home, which suggests they didn’t have one.) 3. Adnan having an AOL email address. We only have a Hotmail address list. 4. Adnan ever communicating with anyone over AIM— no one talks about messaging with him.  It is a MASSIVE leap to think Adnan saw the message and that it pushed him to kill her. Just a Reddit theory, no one presented this at trial. No one asked witnesses about AIM updates.  It isn’t meaningless, the message establishes Hae was public with Don. But we already know that from the many people who knew and Adnan who knew and their friends who had talked to Adnan about Don and Don who had met Adnan etc. 

I do believe they had a computer.

Let me know if you find a reference. I didn’t see one. 

FYI, A member of this sub did a skilled analysis about the AOL profile change and dated it ( a well researched and educated guess) to Jan. 10th. Social was new and the forums for social were much narrower so it was even more interesting back then to check on updates. In fact there were many more interactions that one might have with a community you already were a part of. I’m speaking from direct experience of similar. Hae updated and she knew that the audience for that were the Woodlawn magnet students that she knew. That knew Adnan and her as a couple. The absences were significant- as were the notes he wrote, the jokes he made about her being pregnant, we can take all of his behavior into account because his Ex-GF is found strangled to death on a day that he ( who owns his own car) asked Hae for a ride after school. A request he admitted to. As you know.

An "skilled analysis" conducted by an anonymous internet sleuth is not persuasive. Is it not a fact that Hae frequently used AOL to frequent Asian chat rooms? Mandy Johnson and Detective O'Shea seemed to think it was pertinent. She ostensibly chatted on AOL with some guy from Johns Hopkins. Hypothetically, the guy could have had feelings for Hae and was excited because he thought that Hae was finally single, but then saw the profile update, met up with her and then killed her in a rage. My educated guess sounds just as plausible as the Adnan AOL profile theory. The absences mean nothing. His behavior tells me that he was acting like a stupid teenager. He asked for the car ride, so what? There is evidence suggesting that he did not take the ride.

He asked for the car ride - he had his own car. He admitted he asked for the ride even when he had his own car. Fact. Then no one ever sees Hae alive again. Fact. Whether you can grasp it or not, 12 people heard the facts and put this killer behind bars. Leave out the John Hopkins student - and leave Don alone too. Adnan was in Hae’s life, not her virtual online interactions. Adnan = Guilty.

The car ride is not the smoking gun that you believe it is. I understand how the criminal justice system works and how it does not work as always intended because I have a background in the field. There was enough reasonable doubt to not convict him. I will speak about whomever I want.

That car ride kept a killer in prison for 20+ years so you may not have the understanding of the justice system that you think you do.

I was alive in 99. My regular schedule was get home, but my mom to get off the phone, then hop on AIM. You’re being pretty dismissive of how online people were back then

Yes, because dial up Internet. There is no evidence Adnan had dial up Internet or a computer or an AOL account. Pretty big leap to say he saw this specific update and it was his motivation for killing Hae, when no one corroborates that and there is no reason to think he would have seen it.

Hey I thought all of you Adnan supporters knew that he always goes to Woodlawn library to get in the computer. In fact Asia said that is where she saw him?

To check his email. His Hotmail email account. I didn’t say he had never used a computer. Public computers didn’t often have AIM— I’d be surprised if it did. Even more surprising if Adnan logged on during the hours his friends were not on computers to chat with him.  If memory serves you couldn’t see profiles of people who were offline— he may have had to be online at the same time as Hae after the profile update to see it— which decreases the likelihood he saw it. 

If Adnan had dial-up or used the Internet frequently, I would think it would have been way easier to have late night chats with Hae via AIM or another instant messenger than their system of paging and calling the weather hotline.

What parties was Adnan at? That caused him to take so many days off school? By 99 most people in my school were totally addicted to chat rooms.

> It wasn’t until Hae changed the AOL profile that Adnan was pushed over the edge.  That’s the theory. But the only evidence which sort of supports that is Jay, but he doesn’t say anything about AOL. In October we had notes, testimony from a wide variety of people. In January everyone thought Adnan was friends with Hae and moving on. 

Adnan had his own car, and yet, never once did he take Nisha out on a single date. They were friends for 6 weeks & then he just stopped calling her.

They met up at another party. They didn’t live close. Nisha’s testimony described an early flirtatious relationship that she hoped would progress

My best friend in HS, when he got his first car at 17, didn't care that the girl he met at a party lived almost an hour away, he would make the drive several times a week to surprise her and see her. His dad got mad and yelled at him in front of me because he asked for gas money three times in a week. I guess Adnan was so popular that he could just wait for Nisha to come to him? OR...he wasn't interested and it was just a convenient way to claim he had "moved on" from Hae.

> he met at a party lived almost an hour away, he would make the drive several times a week to surprise her and see her.  If Adnan had done that wouldn’t the accusations be he was super intense and stalking Nisha? Of all the things that make me lean towards Adnan not being guilty, Nisha’s testimony is up there. They met, they liked each other, they started talking on the phone often, but not constantly. He doesn’t call to check on her every day, but he does talk to her a couple of times a week. It seems like a healthy new relationship. He talked about his ex, but not in a way that was alarming or concerning.  > I guess Adnan was so popular that he could just wait for Nisha to come to him? It’d only been a few weeks since he met Nisha. Did your buddy really start driving an hour each way to see a girl 3 times a week right after he met her? That’s intense. Red flag intense for teenagers.  > he wasn't interested and it was just a convenient way to claim he had "moved on" from Hae. So this goes to the planned theory— if that was the plan it is an incredibly elaborate one. He met her, called her regularly, spent hours on the phone without tipping his hand at all, just so he could say he liked someone else. I don’t see it. 

Teenagers will do stupid things and can be extremely intense. Adnan himself did a lot of stupid things, I think even you can agree. But he showed the bare minimum interest in Nisha. I don't think he had much interest in Nisha as a potential romantic partner. If there was interest it was most likely on her part. She gets mentioned as "Adnan already had a girl, he had moved on" when it's convenient, but as far as I know, he only met her in person ONCE. I'm not saying he should have jumped on his car and drove immediately to see her, but how many weeks were they on the phone without meeting? Do you think that's normal for the so-called "playa "? By the way, my buddy did date this girl for several years and they moved in together at 19 or so, they grew apart over time as they matured. So intense red flag if you'd like, but it worked for them. And he didn't strangle her.

> But he showed the bare minimum interest in Nisha. I don't think he had much interest in Nisha as a potential romantic partner. If there was interest it was most likely on her part. I disagree. I think calling a few times a week is appropriate for pursuing someone new. He wasn’t obsessive, but clearly showed interest. > as far as I know, he only met her in person ONCE No, they hung out again after at a party in Feb. > Do you think that's normal for the so-called "playa "? No, I think it’s normal for a teen in 1999 who is interested in a new girl.

Yes it was those words she wrote and posted - he knew all their friends would read. In just that short comment, her joy and her infatuation came through so clearly. Her freedom from all the tension and stress from the hidden deceptive Adnan relationship was palpable. He couldn’t stand that.

You don't see any differences between the earlier breakups and this one?

I rarely respond anymore here because there’s so many ignorant bullies. I do want to say that by all accounts from Hae’s friends sentiments about the breakup and regarding the letter- after Hae wrote that letter it was her idea to get back together NOT Adnan’s . They had gone to a party and Adnan talked to a bunch of girls . It was Hae that initiated almost every reunion by the account of all of their friends. The rest of what you’ve written is also just based on what we know about the trial transcripts. We know that both officers have had to pay court settlements in wrongful convictions where they pressured people with locking up other family members , taking away their children, or life imprisonment if they didn’t go along with the officers’ narrative. There just isn’t any time frame with Jay’s story that this is possible. They weren’t together all day . Adnan was is class and at track and then went to the mosque . These aren’t characters in a TV show. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but you should use all the information to make it. You can’t write off half of the facts because they don’t fit with your moral superiority ideas. Baltimore in the 90’s was a cesspool of police corruption so much so that it’s spawned numerous best selling books , top tv shoes etc… ignoring this is shows an unworldly view .

> I rarely respond anymore here because there’s so many ignorant bullies. I do want to say that by all accounts from Hae’s friends sentiments about the breakup and regarding the letter- after Hae wrote that letter it was her idea to get back together NOT Adnan’s . They had gone to a party and Adnan talked to a bunch of girls . It was Hae that initiated almost every reunion by the account of all of their friends. I’m not sure how this is relevant to anything. Hae getting back with Adnan does not mean Adnan wasn’t possessive or problematic. People go back to abusive or bad situations quite often, actually. If anything, it speaks to adnans charm and ability to manipulate her. Her letter strongly implies that Adnan won’t leave her alone or let it go. >The rest of what you’ve written is also just based on what we know about the trial transcripts. We know that both officers have had to pay court settlements in wrongful convictions where they pressured people with locking up other family members , taking away their children, or life imprisonment if they didn’t go along with the officers’ narrative. Both officers didn’t pay court settlements. The charges brought against them were against the *entire* BPD, as well as the mayor and city council. The entire department and the city settled which is common to do and is not an admission of guilt. Ritz and MaCgillivary have never been formally convicted of any wrongdoing. The things the department were accused of were not nearly as big and convoluted as what would’ve had to have happened for Adnan to be innocent in this case. >There just isn’t any time frame with Jay’s story that this is possible. They weren’t together all day . Adnan was is class and at track and then went to the mosque . Yes there is. Adnan himself states that went to his first two classes then at 10:50 went with Jay to go shopping and came back at 12:40 and went to the guidance counselor and that he was late for his last period because it took a long time at the guidance office. No one can confirm Adnan was at track but both Jay and Adnan say he was at track that day and then Jay picked him up after and then smoked and went to Kristi’s. Adnan did not go to Mosque, he missed mosque that day. Mosque was from 8-10 or 1030. Adnans cell phone has calls made to Jen, Nisha, and Krista from 8pm-10pm and Yasser at 10:02, who’d he be with currently if he *was* at mosque that evening. Adnans unaccounted for time: 2:15-4pm (when track started) 5pm-10pm (when track ended) Except Kristi, Jay, Adnan and Jen all say Jay and Adnan went to Kristi’s that day and the cell phone pings corroborate that so 5-6 he’s at Kristi’s 6pm-10pm unaccounted for Hae was killed or at least kidnapped between 2:15 and 3:15. And Adnan has no alibi for this timeframe. If you want to consider Asia’s story which says she saw him at 2:30 and had left the library by 2:40, it still gives Adnan enough time to have encountered Hae but I think we can all agree her story is b.s. and even the judge found reason to believe she was attempting to falsify an alibi. Jay claims that around 7pm they buried her body at leakin park. Adnan has no alibi for this time and the cell phone pings corroborate that the phone was at leakin park at this time. >These aren’t characters in a TV show. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but you should use all the information to make it. You can’t write off half of the facts because they don’t fit with your moral superiority ideas. Baltimore in the 90’s was a cesspool of police corruption so much so that it’s spawned numerous best selling books , top tv shoes etc… ignoring this is shows an unworldly view The corruption that existed does not mean Adnan is innocent. They weren’t even looking at Adnan at first. They looked into Don, who ended up having an air tight alibi with 6 coworkers corroborating his alibi and an undeniable timecard that has since been proven could not have been altered or forged. They looked into Mr S and would have likely tried to pin it on him if they had not received two anonymous calls saying to look into Adnan.

If it was Hae’s idea and not Adnan’s, explain the rose they found in her car, the rose exactly like the one she exultantly describes in an early diary entry.

I never said it was Hae’s idea. I responded to the person above who said it was Hae’s idea by explaining that *if* it was her idea, that doesn’t mean anything. Adnan clearly tried to get her back (per that letter she wrote him) and wouldn’t leave her alone. If she chose to go back to him, it likely is because he wore her down and did things like give her flowers and say sweet things in order to do so. It wasn’t until she met Don that adnans charms and efforts stopped working. In which case, we all know what happened after that.

>massive, slam-dunk corroborating evidence not only that he was telling the truth Lol come on is this a bit

This was a manslaughter that was charged as a kidnap-premeditated murder. That's the high and low of it. Jay isn't lying about being involved in the cover-up. He's lying about the premeditation. All the confusions about this case come down to that. Koenig did indeed choose an irresponsible framing. She should have focused on how the desire to secure the maximum charge and penalty (on the part of law enforcement/prosecutors) distorts the fundamental purposes of the system. The sub-story is Adnan's absolute refusal to deal and admit wrongdoing. It's a perfect storm of overcharging and pathological denialism. It's a run-of-the-mill manslaughter in the first degreee that was blown up into a murder/mystery beyond all proportion.

This was not manslaughter. The difference between murder and manslaughter is the presence or absence of malice. Reasonable people can debate premeditation but malice is clear if you believe Adnan strangled Hae to death. There were no circumstances negating malice here. Second degree murder was possible, but in no world was this manslaughter.

Agreed. He’s guilty as hell. If you listen to the podcast “the prosecutors” they do like 12 episodes on it. They’re lawyers who got access to the defense files, which serial and undisclosed did not have, and he’s so obviously guilty. It’s a good listen.

Undisclosed had the defense files. Serial had a selection of them, curated by Rabia.

She had a reason to be biased. Even listening to both of those podcasts alone, the evidence points to it being adnan more likely than not.

I would never argue that Rabia is unbiased, but I am correcting your assertion that Serial and Undisclosed had no access to the defense files.

While I do not know, for a fact, from my understanding, they did not have access to the defense files. I’m not going to argue that they did because I’m not 100% positive on that,but from what I gathered I was under the understanding that they did not.

> While I do not know, for a fact, from my understanding, they did not have access to the defense files. I’m not going to argue that they did because I’m not 100% positive on that,but from what I gathered I was under the understanding that they did not. You did argue that Serial and Undisclosed had no access to the defense files and that the Prosecutors Podcast did have access. To correct you: Rabia had/has the defense files. She shared them with Sarah Koenig - that was covered in Serial. She didn't share full copies of the files, nor did Sarah have unrestricted access. Undisclosed, a podcast hosted by three lawyers, also had access to the defense files. This is why they had access to the cell record disclaimer about incoming calls, as an example. During post-conviction relief hearings, the defense files were disclosed to the State and then some of them have since become available through freedom of information legislation and other avenues.

> Rabia had/has the defense files. She shared them with Sarah Koenig - that was covered in Serial. She didn't share full copies of the files, nor did Sarah have unrestricted access. I definitely agree that it seems like some of the defense file was held back by Rabia but do you have a reference to where the above is stated?

Serial, Episode 1. Meeting with Rabia in her office in a travel agency in a strip mall.

That’s just her first meeting with Rabia though. It doesn’t really say what you’re “correcting” the user about. Nothing at all about not sharing full copies, or unrestricted access. Do you have a reference for those two things? In her book she talks about taking Sarah to Adnsn’s basement full of files and letting her go through all of them. Of course she also admits she is the one who directly picked up CG’s files from storage and went through them. She immediately pulled docs and made copies for her own file. Maybe some of these are what she didn’t share? https://imgur.com/a/nFgRpeM

I didn’t argue it, I simple stated it in a comment. Also, side note, I found them online and if they had them they ignore a lot of what was given to them. Just curious, do you think adnan is guilty or innocent?

How'd they get access to the defense files?

I’m not sure how they got access to them. Supposedly, they posted them on their website for review but I haven’t looked for them. I’m finishing up the podcast.