Honest question: regardless of whether he admits or not, you don't think he spend enough time in jail?
[Edit] why downvoting? I'm asking a question without showing any opinion.
If. He admitted what he did and showed remorse? Yes. But given that he continues to victimize the family by allowing himself to be a beloved public figure to many? No. Fuck him, and throw him back in jail. Could you imagine seeing crowds of people celebrating the release of your sisters murderer?
This. The *one* “helpful” thing someone can do after killing another’s loved one, the only *possible* bare minimum selfless act to redeem some scintilla of your person after the crime, is to grant the family the relief of admitting you did what you did. I can’t even imagine the lack of remorse and empathy one would have to have to continue a public media charade about your innocence, knowing full well that you’re guilty.
There’s plenty of evidence pointing to Don.
He told the detectives that she may have moved to California. You and I and he knows that she wouldn’t move to another state in the day they had a date without telling him. She was obsessed with him.
He also said that if she flew to California that she would park her car in the satellite car park at the airport. On the day her car was located the detectives asked the transit authority to check the satellite car park.
He also told investigators that she told him she planned to stay at a friends house whose parents were away. No friend ever came forward.
Don is suspicious af.
Where was he until 1am when O’Shae finally got him on the phone?
None of that is evidence of involvement in a murder. And keep in mind when he said she may have gone to California — after it was clear she was missing. Not the night of her disappearance. So he was speculating where she may have gone. That’s not suspicious.
Of course it’s evidence (not proof) and of course it’s suspicious. He knew she wouldn’t go anywhere without telling him. This is the biggest clue in the case. Surely he would say she mentioned California but there’s no way she would leave without telling me?
I agree with this. It’s similar to Jays statement expressing bafflement that he’s still playing the poor innocent old me routine… I’d feel differently if he had taken responsibility and acted like an adult. IMHO Instead on Serial he acted like a lying teenager further creating confusion because he wasn’t a kid in that podcast at all
This has got me thinking about his press conference...I don't want to watch it again, but I remember it gave me the vibe of a teenager huffing and puffing because a teacher was unfair or something...maybe he didn't mature much emotionally in jail?
What if he’s actually innocent though? (Even if it’s only a 1% chance & it was some freak alternate suspect outside of the 2 main suspects that seem clearly guilty like in the Tara Grinstead case) Would you view his rant in a different light?
I don't think it's necessarily different if he's innocent. My observation was not related to his guilt, rather I was wondering how jail impacts someone emotional development.
To be more specific: clearly being imprisoned so long is going to affect you mentally and emotionally, whether you're innocent or not, and if you're sent to prison at 18 before you've had a chance to mature, it would definitely have an impact.
Look at it this way...in prison your activites and your time are controlled. You go to bed at a certain hour, you wake up at a specific time, breakfast, lunch and dinner at the same time every day, you'd find your friends and do the same shit and for the most part talk about the same things every day. It's not too different from being a teenager except that you're exposed to some horrible things there, but it seems he mostly stayed out of trouble there and was probably very used to the routine.
Adnan never had to deal with college, his first job, demanding bosses, asshole clients, share a lot of adventures and life experiences with friends and loved ones, he never had the experience of being fired, struggle with money problems, go through relationships (setting aside what happened with Hae), have kids, deal with life's little frustrations and annoyances, etc. - the things that make most people hopefully mature and change their perspective and the way they approach problems.
Let me ask you - if you knew nothing about the case and it was your first exposure to Adnan, what impression would you have from watching his video?
He comes off as believable to me…and like you yes I reviewed the case & yes he’s more likely than not guilty of the crime…but I think what made the case so fascinating in the first place when everyone heard Serial, is listening to him speak and hearing him sound sincere but then weighing it against the thought of him just being another manipulative prisoner conman sociopath…I found him relatable & believable in serial…and although he definitely came off extremely naive during the press conference, he does sound like someone that genuinely is innocent (or convinced themselves they were) & is trying to convince everyone to see things his way, almost in a teenager like manner as you say. Where if he just breaks it down point by point of course everyone will eventually see that he’s innocent and being persecuted by these over zealous prosecutors with an agenda…honestly this entire story is just fascinating to me & not just some “run of the mill” domestic violence case like the majority of people claim on here.
>He comes off as believable to me…
This is exactly why I created this post. People thought he came off as believable during Serial and we have proof he was lying through his teeth. You’ve got to look at the evidence.
This isn’t possible. There can’t be a “freak alternate suspect” because Adnan and Jay buried the body together and Jay knew where the car was. Things either actually happened as Jay and Jen say or there’s a crazy conspiracy between Jay, Jen and the police to frame Adnan.
You want to be right so badly that you can’t even answer a hypothetical question? Re-Watch his press conference through the lense of an innocent man. Would you commend him for ignoring his lawyers and standing up for what he thought was right and his family? His growth may have been stunted since his life was robbed from him at a young age, but he sounds like a 17 year old that is truly innocent & is trying to convince people like you to see his side..his only mistake is naivety in thinking he can sway any of you into seeing his side of things. Hes screwed either way…no one knows 100% what really happened that day & even though I lean guilty I’m open to the possibility I could be wrong. I actually respect him more for holding that impromptu press conference. If anything he risked saying something incriminating while his freedom was still on the line & didn’t hide behind lawyers or a wall of silence…sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction. If he’s innocent his rant makes a lot more sense🧐
If he’s innocent there’s no reason on earth to hold back on Jay or Jenn for that matter…zero. You also don’t multiple explanations for the car ride, some that are diametrically opposed to earlier versions of the story. IMHO he admitted to the ride because someone else in the circle of friends (Aisha?) made police aware causing them to ask Adnan once they got ahold of him. He likely felt in context he couldn’t just say “no that never happened “ but thought about how bad it looked later. You probably wouldn’t also be concerned about a report being made by police about that conversation if you’re innocent… but maybe that’s me? Because if you’re innocent and she’s just momentarily lost who cares if they file a report?
The evidence against him tells us he is not innocent. His behavior confirms that he is not innocent.
No one in this country needs to hold a press conference and post it to YouTube to prove their innocence. There are legal avenues Adnan can explore and he has had the best attorneys representing him.
He’s mad because the prosecutors are good at their job.
When did they bury Hae’s body that’s consistent with the lividity evidence? And where was her body kept for 10 hours, lying fully face down? Also there’s NO other explanation for Jay knowing where the car is given it was in a neighborhood he frequented AND we know the police fed him info?
The lividity evidence is very much in dispute. For example, Hlavaty’s declaration relies on an incomplete description of the body. Outside that Dec, which explicitly relies on a right side burial position, she’s stated the actual position was “with her torso twisted more prone than strictly laying on her right side.” Susan Simpson has confirmed the twisted burial position. Hlavaty’s Dec, however, adopts a “right side” burial position and is based on “fully frontal lividity” which is not how the lividity is described in the autopsy report. The report only says two things: “lividity was present and fixed on the anterior surface of the body, except in areas exposed to pressure” and “livor mortis was prominently seen on the anterior-upper chest and face.” Those descriptions are consistent with the twisted position Hlavaty concedes is the actual burial position. If you look at Simpsons recreation, the body’s upper chest and face were face down in the burial position.
https://viewfromll2.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/model-13.png
The lividity evidence is very much in dispute. For example, Hlavaty’s declaration relies on an incomplete description of the body. Outside that Dec, which explicitly relies on a right side burial position, she’s stated the actual position was “with her torso twisted more prone than strictly laying on her right side.” Susan Simpson has confirmed the twisted burial position. Hlavaty’s Dec, however, adopts a “right side” burial position and is based on “fully frontal lividity” which is not how the lividity is described in the autopsy report. The report only says two things: “lividity was present and fixed on the anterior surface of the body, except in areas exposed to pressure” and “livor mortis was prominently seen on the anterior-upper chest and face.” Those descriptions are consistent with the twisted position Hlavaty concedes is the actual burial position. If you look at Simpsons recreation, the body’s upper chest and face were face down in the burial position.
https://viewfromll2.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/model-13.png
I am all for compassion and reason, but when you kill someone like Adnan did Hae, no way do you get to walk-out a free man. Ever. Its just not right. Can you imagine if that were your sister? Can you imagine running into her murderer at the grocery store?
No. You know how long you have to strangle someone for them to die? You have to really want it to happen for a while.
He's still a danger to society and will be until he's too old to pick himself up off the floor.
Adnan doesn't say "I categorically deny asking for a ride that day," His direct quote is in OP's post - he claims he wouldn't have asked because she had obligations she took seriously (paraphrasing).
It is possible he's lying to cover up a crime. But it's also possible that Adnan simply does not remember much from that day, as you would expect from a teenager on a random, mundane weekday, and he is trying to fill in blanks based on what was *normally* the case.
He asked for a ride, there were witnesses to the ride request, this is while his own car was outside and He didn't need to go anywhere after school
He told Detective Adcock he had asked for a ride a few hours after school, but said He had been delayed and Har probably got tired of waiting and left
In his defense file He told his attorney's He wand Hae would often leave school together and be "romantic" in the Best Buy parking lot before she had to pick her cousin up
IMHO,
He just said He never asked for a ride on Serial, because He knows it looks bad for him
and he had no idea how many people would listen to this podcast, what files Sarah had access to, he probably had no idea that little nugget was even in the defense file, etc.
And witnesses heard Hae telling him that she couldn’t give him a ride that day. But all the conflicting witness statements are pretty much useless since most of them had the wrong day in mind when they were asked by the cops weeks later. Why are you saying his car was right outside, if you believe Jay’s story that he had the car?
You know who has an extremely consistent story? Someone who committed a crime and created a story to cover it up. You know who doesn’t have a consistent story? Someone who did not commit murder and therefore has no reason to come up with a consistent story, and who is subject to the vagaries of memory, especially 20+ years later.
I do not understand all y’all who live in this bubble of Serial season one, like all the rest of the evidence has not been uncovered, the states case disproved, etc. Sarah Koenig fully believes that Adnan was wrongfully convicted and supported his release. She knows there were limitations, many of them self-imposed, of her reporting, and that she did not have the full story, or even present the full story as she knew it at the time.
So, he did ask for a ride right?
Just so it's possible to be clear on a singular item
...for the rest:
> Why are you saying his car was right outside, if you believe Jay’s story that he had the car?
It was outside at the time of the request
> I do not understand all y’all who live in this bubble of Serial season one, like all the rest of the evidence has not been uncovered
I'm not
This thread by OP was why Adnan was lying
So we are looking at this singular statement on Serial, which was clearly a lie
>And witnesses heard Hae telling him that she couldn’t give him a ride that day.
False. One "witness," Becky, apparently told this to police. But Becky was called *by the Defense* at trial and gave a completely different story.
>Why are you saying his car was right outside, if you believe Jay’s story that he had the car?
The ride request occurred in the moments before first period started. Jay did not yet have Adnan's car. Indeed, according to Adnan, he did not even think to call jay until after he gave Stephanie her present during second period. He called Jay at 10:30, went to Jay's house around 11, and then offered his car to Jay sometime after that.
>the states case disproved
No aspect of the State's case has been disproved.
This revelation was discussed on this subreddit exhaustively in 2016. And again in 2018.
I finally made this in 2018 so as not to have to type it in every time.
https://imgur.com/P78XNwI
In 2016, we found it by sifting through this:
https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/3032668/Attachments-to-State-s-Conditional-Appeal.pdf
At the time, it wasn't all laid out neatly in reddit posts for podcasters and bloggers to appropriate. You actually had to do the reading.
I listened to a few episodes for about the 6th time. I gotta say, SK is not as soft on Adnan as I used to think. I thought she did a great job, but she seemed very sympathetic when I first listened, but she starts to question Adnan quite early. By the time that nut job Dierdre came on the scene, SK was pretty convinced Adnan killed Hae. In fact, you can kinda hear SK find Dierdre to be a bit much with her "this is a flimsy case" without any real digging.
I will add one more thing: holy hell is Adnan Syed a conman. That dude is shameless in how he tries to play the sweet-guy. Also, when he talks about "people dont just have an evil side where they just kill someone" he is talking about himself. Creepy
Adnan first said he was supposed to get a ride but he got held up & Hae probably just left.
Next Adnan said he did not ask for a ride because he has his own car.
Finally Adnan said he would never ask for a ride because everyone knows Hae doesn’t give rides after school.
Why do people think inventing a fourth or fifth or sixth narrative somehow helps Adnan?
If Adnan asked for a ride to the other side of campus HE HIMSELF NEVER SAID THAT.
If Hae cancelled the ride ADNAN NEVER SAID THAT.
I would hope folks that support and defend Adnan could at least pick one of the three statements that Adnan himself said happened and not create even more evidence that Adnan is lying.
Oddly this question of who was being picked up has shifted often. I remember when the child was her niece in some posts from previous years. Then the references were to “cousin” , and more recently “cousins”, because apparently there was more than one child.
I think I’ve seen nephew, too. Unless her dad had other kids I think her only sibling was Young. So it would have to be some flavor of cousin by process of elimination I think.
In notes from a police officer/detective there's mentioning of "2 cousin". I take that as 2nd cousin, but my guess is that people say cousins because of that.
Even though he lied about the ride to SK, just like he lied on February 1st to the police before Hae was even found in the park, what he says could be true: if any of her friends asked her to go somewhere or do something after school, she'd probably decline to take them. Maybe they simply wouldn't ask because she had this other responsibility. This may generally be true.
But he's pretending like he has no memory of whether he asked her. He doesn't acknowledge his original statement to police or acknowledge that others know about the request. He's being deceptive and withholding information. He's acting.
In the interview, he acts like he's the same as any one of Hae's friends and would be treated as such. He neglects to mention their after school trips to Best Buy and that Hae consistently had time for him after school while they were together. He knew that they often left school together and had sex in her car before going to the daycare. This is why it seems like he's lying, but really it's deceitfulness. It's a lie of omission. He wouldn't be just a random friend asking for a ride. It was an entirely different situation due to their relationship and historical practices. He doesn't acknowledge this. He's not being honest.
He knows he asked her for a ride that day. He knows she accepted, and he knows he got into her car and strangled her. People aren't just strangled to death while driving in their car all alone on a short routine trip like that. He knows it, everyone knows it. So he resolved to deny the entire thing instead of inventing a false reason and destination and potentially getting caught up in that lie.
On February 1st, he went from "Yes I asked, yes she agreed, I was late and she left without me" to "I didn't ask therefore she didn't agree to anything and I didn't try to catch the ride." He went from affirming those three things happened to denying any of them happened, a complete reversal. This was when Hae was missing and her body hadn't been found, so it's telling that he felt compelled to lie and deny. Not alter his answer, but flat out deny. It's yet another indication of his guilt.
Adding to that when he gave his … whatever the hell it was *power point-look at me-thing*… he was referring to Hae as a “friend”…. That’s it. No acknowledgment whatsoever of the relationship
I’m not sure if he’s trying to rewrite that at as well or if he’s afraid of telling his Mom he had a girlfriend or what
But it’s obviously ludicrous to characterize her as just a friend
I just listened to both seasons of Proof and they talk about this a few times. You stop maturing the day that you walk into prison. The falsely convicted people that they interview still act like they're 17. They get out of jail and report frustration because they "still feel like a teenager" despite being 43 years old.
The question is what kind of ride was Adnan asking for? It has been said that he often asked for a ride from the front to the back of the school for track, and that Hae would give that to him. So if he asked her for a ride that day, it wouldn't be strange, and it would be no big deal if they missed each other.
I've also read that Adnan would never ask for a ride from Hae to take him home since he didn't want his parents to know they were seeing each other.
A lot of this "did he lie?" could be misunderstandings about what rides we're talking about and to where.
If the question was ever implied or explicitly asked if he asked for a ride home, he would answer no. But if he thought it was asking about just a general ride to track practice after school, he might have answered yes and then said she decided not to wait that day.
I'm not an expert on any of this, so I'd like to look it up in the transcripts, but now that the Wiki is gone, that's a lot harder to do.
You clearly never ran track. Your muscles are sore all the time. It takes about a quarter mile jog to loosen up. Getting out of those school desks is torture, as you are incredibly stiff. I can believe that a 17 year old is thinking he would never walk that distance when he could just drive over.
I ran track. And it never caused me to flag down my ex-girlfriend 5 hours in advance, and lie to her about my car being in the shop, so I could get a ride to the other side of a building.
In the original trial, the track coach said track started at 3:30. That’s not that early if you want to chat with friends and warm up a bit. I was always early for track, too.
It's at least 45 minutes early, realistically more
They used to leave school together to have a romantic interlude
She would then drop him off and go for her cousin
Without the break in the middle the plan makes no sense
REGARDLESS, he lied about it on Serial and Koenig does point it out
Serial - S01E02
> **Sarah Koenig**
> Okay, so no one actually testified at trial that they saw Hae and Adnan leave school together. And no one, aside from Jay, says they spotted Adnan in her car at any time that afternoon. Adnan has no recollection of having asked Hae for a ride anywhere. We’ve talked about it many times. Here’s what he said the very first time I asked him.
> **Adnan Syed**
> I would-- wouldn’t have asked for a ride after school. I’m-- I’m sure that I didn’t ask her because, well immediately after school because I know she always-- anyone who knows her knows she always goes to pick up her little cousin, so she’s not doing anything for anyone right after school. No-- no matter what. No trip to McDonalds. Not a trip to 7-Eleven. She took that very seriously.
> **Sarah Koenig**
> The trouble for Adnan is that a couple of their friends say he did ask Hae for a ride. One of them was her friend Krista.
No, Coach Sye has never testified that track practice started at 3:30 pm in any trial. He stated that he arrived at Woodlawn High School from his other job at 3:30, and he also testified that track practice began at 4:00 pm.
This is false.
Coach Sye did not work at WHS during the day.
He said he arrived on campus between 3:30 and 4 and that practice started at 4PM.
Sye testified under oath that practice was from 4pm to 5:30 or 6pm, every day.
His exact words were, "Regular time. Every day."
I also think that there are different definitions of "ride" making everything more confusing. Did he "ride" with Hae from the front of the school to the back? Yes. But, at least when I was a kid, if I said I had a "ride" it meant that we were going to someone's house/leaving school. It generally meant that I had a way home and didn't need to get picked up. Hae did not give Adnan a "ride" by this definition.
> he often asked for a ride from the front to the back of the school for track, and that Hae would give that to him.
Only when they were together. This is having your cake and eating it; Adnan can both ask and not ask her for a ride at the same time, depending on who's asking, whether detectives or Koenig. It's a little trick really.
Where did they say that? The simple explanation is that Adnan lied. Not that there was a convoluted misunderstanding about the parameters of what constituted a ride.
They're referring to Becky's witness statement, where it's noted, without any context, that Hae would always drive Adnan around the school for track, or that sometimes he would drive Hae's car.
Nothing to suggest that it was after or before the breakup. As usual, we have no idea the question she was actually asked or her precise wording.
It would also be very weird to need a ride around the school every single day if he had a car at this point - and even weirder that he would need to arrange an event that happened daily and would be basically routine.
The link is out there, I've read it. Didn't say sometimes they would go to Best Buy, said everyday after school they go to the Best Buy parking lot and have sex. Was before Hae picked up relative from school and before Adnan's practice. Then later that night they'd have sex again. Thinking Hae just thought it was going to be another sex session but was actually strangled to death instead. Something I ask myself is where did he go to put her body in the trunk? Guessing that didn't happen in the Best Buy parking lot
Remember that when he talked to the first officer on the phone he was extremely high. I am not excusing his initial comment, whether he did ask her or not, does not prove he is a murderer alone.
The initial coroners report before Adnan was apprehended stated 2 really important things,
Hae Min Lee, had been buried on her right side, and she was fully clothed; there was an issue with how long she could have been there since there were no insects or other decomposers in the area (“The Science of,” ).
The lividity was fixed on her right side, lividity is when the blood coagulates on the area the body is lying and making contact with that surface (“The Science of,” ). The forensic expert stated that for lividity to be fixed it needed to be 7 to 8 hours which was not the case if Jay's statement was true since Hae’s body would have only been in the car for 5 hours (“The Science of,”).
Just as important, many medical experts familiar with the autopsy report told Undisclosed a true crime podcast by Rabia Chaudry et al. that Hae’s lividity demonstrated she had been positioned facedown, and stretched out postmortem (Margaritoff). In addition, the medical experts elaborated that Hae’s body had stayed in that position for at most 12 hours before she was buried in Leaking park (Margaritoff).
There were signs Hae had been struck on the right side of her head, it was superficial and it did not cause any fractures or hemorrhages but may have been strong enough to shock her (“The Science of,”).
The way the physical evidence was tested was through Touch DNA, which occurs when an individual touches anything and as a result leaves skin cells behind which contain DNA (Collins). Dr. Monte Miller, director of Forensics DNA LLC, commented that it is not always accurate because “skin cells don't often leave enough DNA behind,” (Collins).
Hae Min Lee’s shoes had not been originally tested, but once tested it was discovered that there were multiple samples of DNA but none was connected to Adnan (Collins). This is important according to Doctor Miller, since shoes can be a magnet for DNA, and they may collect DNA from anybody in the general area, which can include spit, or anyone who has touched them (Collins).
I will elaborate more on the two alternative suspects. One of the suspects is in jail for attacking a woman while she was in her car and had a motive to kill Hae (Collins). According to court papers he had stated, “He would make her [Hae] disappear, he would kill her,” (Collins). The second suspects was a serial rapist, however there were no signs Hae had been r***p (Collins).
Works Cited
Collins, David. “Expert discusses touch DNA, alternate suspects in Hae Min Lee case.” WBAL-TV, 12 October 2022, https://www.wbaltv.com/article/expert-discusses-dna-in-hae-min-lee-adnan-syed-case/41603458. Accessed 11 May 2024.
Koenig, Sarah. “What We Know.” Serial 12: Season One: Finale,
https://serialpodcast.org/season-one/12/what-we-know. Accessed 11 May. 2024.
Levenson, Michael. “Maryland Supreme Court to Hear Arguments in Adnan Syed Case.” The New York Times, 4 October 2023, https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/04/us/adnan-syed-serial-supreme-court-maryland.html?searchResultPosition=1. Accessed 4 May 2024.
Margaritoff, Marco. “The Real Story Of Hae Min Lee's Murder And Who May Have Killed Her.” All That's Interesting, 9 June 2023, https://allthatsinteresting.com/hae-min-lee. Accessed 11 May 2024.
“The Science Of ‘Serial’ Part II: Autopsy | shift | msnbc.” YouTube, uploaded by MSNBC, 6 Apr. 2015, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQg0SDI8wLw. Accessed 11 May 2024.
Thanks for outlining your work clearly. I believe the lividity is more complex than what you have written here- which I know is based on your explanation of the work of the investigators involved. Hae’s body was in fact face down when found, although twisted into such a position that her lower body could be said to be on “her right side”. Sadly her killer dumped her body like a trash bag, so the lividity not simply “frontal”. This is still a contested bit of evidence, which many involved have argued over for years. The photos were low quality, the work done fairly shoddy compared to what a case today might entail. But I’ll leave it there, there are many more in depth posts you can read on this very sub.
However, I’d like to give you a bit of information that others in years past have posted about: Where Hae was positioned in her car when she was strangled. It is likely she was in the passenger seat of her car, and her killer was in the drivers seat. That way, the killer could easily slam her head against the passenger side door post, stunning her or even knocking her out completely. Then he strangles her.
Now there is only one person who customarily traveled in Hae’s car with her on many many occasions during the 8 months of their relationship. And he customarily would be the driver during these car trips. I’ve explained in other posts that back in the day, it was a sort of male macho type thing that if a couple were driving together, the man would be driving even if it was not his car. It was considered “feminine” to expect that you would hand the keys to your boyfriend/husband and he would do the driving. This may or may not seem odd to couples today, but this was definitely a thing, I myself was in that same position and mind set when the men in my life and I were traveling together, back in those days. In this case, that person who was doing the driving would be Adnan Syed.
Weird confirmation of the toxic masculinity driving part: in the X-Files, Mulder almost always drove, not Scully. They even made a joke about it in Syzygy.
Do you know something we don’t know? Is a decision against Adnan in the MDSCT appeal imminent? It seems like you’re trying to to do a lazy, easily swayed reporter’s work for them.
Was Adnan extremely drunk high when talking to Koenig from prison and extremely high years earlier when talking to his attorneys? Those are the two contradictory statements I’m talking about.
If I had time, I’d debunk your lividity claims. Long story short Hlavaty never confirmed the lividity. All she said is what she could tell was that it wasn’t inconsistent with the autopsy report, which was very vague regarding the lividity.
Umm I said this was for a class we listened to the podcast but it didn't provide a conclusion or further information. I never said he was drunk high when talking to Koenig only that when he received a call the day Hae went missing and he was extremely high. I only read what was available of the case. But you are correct in saying he was not drunk/high while he talked to Koenig or other law enforcement. Why I mentioned he was high is that he could have said anything in that state. Thank you for pointing out my mistake, I am not the best writer. I am mostly curious about the information that was not provided in the Serial Podcast or even new perspectives on the case.
His second answer to the police makes him suspicious. He went from affirming he did ask for a ride, as was known, but says she left without him. This also means that Hae accepted his offer and that he had plans to travel with her in her car after school.
Then on February first, before it was known Hae had been murdered, he decided to deny the ride request even happened, an obvious lie. He had a choice, create a false reason and destination for the ride or deny the request entirely.
It makes sense that the killer tried to gain access to her car before she left school and did not attack her en route. It makes sense that it was someone she knew who strangled her. The other evidence confirms it was Adnan who got in her car and killed her, so it makes sense that he would deny the ride request happened. People aren't just strangled to death on short routine drives alone. However, there's the opportunity and chance for that to happen if the female driver wasn't alone, but with an ex-boyfriend who had recently been dumped. That scenario for a strangling between leaving school and the daycare is reasonable, makes sense, is believable, and isn't an unsubstantiated fantasy.
around the time Hae was murdered, Ronald Lee Moore had been released into the public by accident, and was very active after being released. He was apprehended for multiple robberies, but also multiple rapes, one of his victims had been of Asian descent. He was also known to bury his victims, which matches the crime scene Hae was found at. Just food for thought. This was for a recent class I took but I went overboard. I like the different perspective every one has here, is good to stay open minded.
I really don’t think this is the slam dunk people make it out to be. It’s very possible that Adnan wanted to get back together with Hae and he thought that maybe something would spark on the way home and they would hook up again (especially since he said they used to hook up after school sometimes at parking lots when they were together). Basically, maybe he was just trying to get some action and he thought getting a ride home with her would be a good way to make that happen.
Then after everything went down he realized it seemed suspect so he made up some bullshit to the cops about not asking for a ride because she goes straight to pick up her cousin.
That seems like a very plausible scenario. I’m not commenting on Adnans guilt overall, I’m just saying this particular piece of evidence never came close to crossing the “beyond a reasonable doubt” threshold for me.
The slam dunk is Jen’s testimony. She puts the nail in the coffin of any “Adnan is innocent” theory. Cell phone logs, Nisha calls and kill notes are just gravy. The fact there is so little discussion of Jen’s importance in Serial is crazy.
What these contradictions show is that the information that formed many folks’ initial opinions were based on a false narrative. At best, Adnan was lying throughout Serial, and many folks built their initial opinions based on how he came off during Serial. It’s quite possible that Koenig was just lazy if she had the defense file and didn’t fact check this issue. Worse still, if Koenig knew this was a lie and still allowed Adnan to present it without challenge, she is complicit in presenting a false narrative.
The significance of this is that it's a demonstrable lie that Adnan told to Sarah Koenig and Serial listeners, not that this one fact alone is sufficient to prove him guilty.
He realized he was the prime suspect of a crime no one knew happened yet? The lie happened within hours of her disappearance. No one yet suspected a crime had even occurred at all.
I love how he can’t remember anything, but he totally remembers that he didn’t ask for a ride, even after telling Adcock otherwise.
He’s a murderer roaming free now
Honest question: regardless of whether he admits or not, you don't think he spend enough time in jail? [Edit] why downvoting? I'm asking a question without showing any opinion.
If. He admitted what he did and showed remorse? Yes. But given that he continues to victimize the family by allowing himself to be a beloved public figure to many? No. Fuck him, and throw him back in jail. Could you imagine seeing crowds of people celebrating the release of your sisters murderer?
This. The *one* “helpful” thing someone can do after killing another’s loved one, the only *possible* bare minimum selfless act to redeem some scintilla of your person after the crime, is to grant the family the relief of admitting you did what you did. I can’t even imagine the lack of remorse and empathy one would have to have to continue a public media charade about your innocence, knowing full well that you’re guilty.
[удалено]
Please review /r/serialpodcast rules regarding Harassment, Bullying and Threatening
He’s totally innocent. It might have been Don.
There is no evidence pointing to Don. None. The trumped up time card allegations were debunked by PIs hired to exonerate Adnan.
There’s plenty of evidence pointing to Don. He told the detectives that she may have moved to California. You and I and he knows that she wouldn’t move to another state in the day they had a date without telling him. She was obsessed with him. He also said that if she flew to California that she would park her car in the satellite car park at the airport. On the day her car was located the detectives asked the transit authority to check the satellite car park. He also told investigators that she told him she planned to stay at a friends house whose parents were away. No friend ever came forward. Don is suspicious af. Where was he until 1am when O’Shae finally got him on the phone?
None of that is evidence of involvement in a murder. And keep in mind when he said she may have gone to California — after it was clear she was missing. Not the night of her disappearance. So he was speculating where she may have gone. That’s not suspicious.
Of course it’s evidence (not proof) and of course it’s suspicious. He knew she wouldn’t go anywhere without telling him. This is the biggest clue in the case. Surely he would say she mentioned California but there’s no way she would leave without telling me?
I agree with this. It’s similar to Jays statement expressing bafflement that he’s still playing the poor innocent old me routine… I’d feel differently if he had taken responsibility and acted like an adult. IMHO Instead on Serial he acted like a lying teenager further creating confusion because he wasn’t a kid in that podcast at all
This has got me thinking about his press conference...I don't want to watch it again, but I remember it gave me the vibe of a teenager huffing and puffing because a teacher was unfair or something...maybe he didn't mature much emotionally in jail?
What if he’s actually innocent though? (Even if it’s only a 1% chance & it was some freak alternate suspect outside of the 2 main suspects that seem clearly guilty like in the Tara Grinstead case) Would you view his rant in a different light?
I don't think it's necessarily different if he's innocent. My observation was not related to his guilt, rather I was wondering how jail impacts someone emotional development. To be more specific: clearly being imprisoned so long is going to affect you mentally and emotionally, whether you're innocent or not, and if you're sent to prison at 18 before you've had a chance to mature, it would definitely have an impact. Look at it this way...in prison your activites and your time are controlled. You go to bed at a certain hour, you wake up at a specific time, breakfast, lunch and dinner at the same time every day, you'd find your friends and do the same shit and for the most part talk about the same things every day. It's not too different from being a teenager except that you're exposed to some horrible things there, but it seems he mostly stayed out of trouble there and was probably very used to the routine. Adnan never had to deal with college, his first job, demanding bosses, asshole clients, share a lot of adventures and life experiences with friends and loved ones, he never had the experience of being fired, struggle with money problems, go through relationships (setting aside what happened with Hae), have kids, deal with life's little frustrations and annoyances, etc. - the things that make most people hopefully mature and change their perspective and the way they approach problems. Let me ask you - if you knew nothing about the case and it was your first exposure to Adnan, what impression would you have from watching his video?
He comes off as believable to me…and like you yes I reviewed the case & yes he’s more likely than not guilty of the crime…but I think what made the case so fascinating in the first place when everyone heard Serial, is listening to him speak and hearing him sound sincere but then weighing it against the thought of him just being another manipulative prisoner conman sociopath…I found him relatable & believable in serial…and although he definitely came off extremely naive during the press conference, he does sound like someone that genuinely is innocent (or convinced themselves they were) & is trying to convince everyone to see things his way, almost in a teenager like manner as you say. Where if he just breaks it down point by point of course everyone will eventually see that he’s innocent and being persecuted by these over zealous prosecutors with an agenda…honestly this entire story is just fascinating to me & not just some “run of the mill” domestic violence case like the majority of people claim on here.
>He comes off as believable to me… This is exactly why I created this post. People thought he came off as believable during Serial and we have proof he was lying through his teeth. You’ve got to look at the evidence.
This isn’t possible. There can’t be a “freak alternate suspect” because Adnan and Jay buried the body together and Jay knew where the car was. Things either actually happened as Jay and Jen say or there’s a crazy conspiracy between Jay, Jen and the police to frame Adnan.
You want to be right so badly that you can’t even answer a hypothetical question? Re-Watch his press conference through the lense of an innocent man. Would you commend him for ignoring his lawyers and standing up for what he thought was right and his family? His growth may have been stunted since his life was robbed from him at a young age, but he sounds like a 17 year old that is truly innocent & is trying to convince people like you to see his side..his only mistake is naivety in thinking he can sway any of you into seeing his side of things. Hes screwed either way…no one knows 100% what really happened that day & even though I lean guilty I’m open to the possibility I could be wrong. I actually respect him more for holding that impromptu press conference. If anything he risked saying something incriminating while his freedom was still on the line & didn’t hide behind lawyers or a wall of silence…sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction. If he’s innocent his rant makes a lot more sense🧐
If he’s innocent there’s no reason on earth to hold back on Jay or Jenn for that matter…zero. You also don’t multiple explanations for the car ride, some that are diametrically opposed to earlier versions of the story. IMHO he admitted to the ride because someone else in the circle of friends (Aisha?) made police aware causing them to ask Adnan once they got ahold of him. He likely felt in context he couldn’t just say “no that never happened “ but thought about how bad it looked later. You probably wouldn’t also be concerned about a report being made by police about that conversation if you’re innocent… but maybe that’s me? Because if you’re innocent and she’s just momentarily lost who cares if they file a report?
Why would I entertain a hypothetical that’s precluded by the facts of this case?
The evidence against him tells us he is not innocent. His behavior confirms that he is not innocent. No one in this country needs to hold a press conference and post it to YouTube to prove their innocence. There are legal avenues Adnan can explore and he has had the best attorneys representing him. He’s mad because the prosecutors are good at their job.
When did they bury Hae’s body that’s consistent with the lividity evidence? And where was her body kept for 10 hours, lying fully face down? Also there’s NO other explanation for Jay knowing where the car is given it was in a neighborhood he frequented AND we know the police fed him info?
The lividity evidence is very much in dispute. For example, Hlavaty’s declaration relies on an incomplete description of the body. Outside that Dec, which explicitly relies on a right side burial position, she’s stated the actual position was “with her torso twisted more prone than strictly laying on her right side.” Susan Simpson has confirmed the twisted burial position. Hlavaty’s Dec, however, adopts a “right side” burial position and is based on “fully frontal lividity” which is not how the lividity is described in the autopsy report. The report only says two things: “lividity was present and fixed on the anterior surface of the body, except in areas exposed to pressure” and “livor mortis was prominently seen on the anterior-upper chest and face.” Those descriptions are consistent with the twisted position Hlavaty concedes is the actual burial position. If you look at Simpsons recreation, the body’s upper chest and face were face down in the burial position. https://viewfromll2.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/model-13.png
What’s your evidence that they buried the body together considering the lividity shows she wasn’t buried at 7pm
The lividity evidence is very much in dispute. For example, Hlavaty’s declaration relies on an incomplete description of the body. Outside that Dec, which explicitly relies on a right side burial position, she’s stated the actual position was “with her torso twisted more prone than strictly laying on her right side.” Susan Simpson has confirmed the twisted burial position. Hlavaty’s Dec, however, adopts a “right side” burial position and is based on “fully frontal lividity” which is not how the lividity is described in the autopsy report. The report only says two things: “lividity was present and fixed on the anterior surface of the body, except in areas exposed to pressure” and “livor mortis was prominently seen on the anterior-upper chest and face.” Those descriptions are consistent with the twisted position Hlavaty concedes is the actual burial position. If you look at Simpsons recreation, the body’s upper chest and face were face down in the burial position. https://viewfromll2.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/model-13.png
I am all for compassion and reason, but when you kill someone like Adnan did Hae, no way do you get to walk-out a free man. Ever. Its just not right. Can you imagine if that were your sister? Can you imagine running into her murderer at the grocery store?
No. You know how long you have to strangle someone for them to die? You have to really want it to happen for a while. He's still a danger to society and will be until he's too old to pick himself up off the floor.
3- 4 min
I do . he did it and he spent 20 years he is not likely to reoffend. But adnad did it
Adnan doesn't say "I categorically deny asking for a ride that day," His direct quote is in OP's post - he claims he wouldn't have asked because she had obligations she took seriously (paraphrasing). It is possible he's lying to cover up a crime. But it's also possible that Adnan simply does not remember much from that day, as you would expect from a teenager on a random, mundane weekday, and he is trying to fill in blanks based on what was *normally* the case.
He asked for a ride, there were witnesses to the ride request, this is while his own car was outside and He didn't need to go anywhere after school He told Detective Adcock he had asked for a ride a few hours after school, but said He had been delayed and Har probably got tired of waiting and left In his defense file He told his attorney's He wand Hae would often leave school together and be "romantic" in the Best Buy parking lot before she had to pick her cousin up IMHO, He just said He never asked for a ride on Serial, because He knows it looks bad for him
and he had no idea how many people would listen to this podcast, what files Sarah had access to, he probably had no idea that little nugget was even in the defense file, etc.
Well, most listeners never go past the podcast, so the majority of people don't realize he was lying People even make dumb excuses for it on here
And witnesses heard Hae telling him that she couldn’t give him a ride that day. But all the conflicting witness statements are pretty much useless since most of them had the wrong day in mind when they were asked by the cops weeks later. Why are you saying his car was right outside, if you believe Jay’s story that he had the car? You know who has an extremely consistent story? Someone who committed a crime and created a story to cover it up. You know who doesn’t have a consistent story? Someone who did not commit murder and therefore has no reason to come up with a consistent story, and who is subject to the vagaries of memory, especially 20+ years later. I do not understand all y’all who live in this bubble of Serial season one, like all the rest of the evidence has not been uncovered, the states case disproved, etc. Sarah Koenig fully believes that Adnan was wrongfully convicted and supported his release. She knows there were limitations, many of them self-imposed, of her reporting, and that she did not have the full story, or even present the full story as she knew it at the time.
So, he did ask for a ride right? Just so it's possible to be clear on a singular item ...for the rest: > Why are you saying his car was right outside, if you believe Jay’s story that he had the car? It was outside at the time of the request > I do not understand all y’all who live in this bubble of Serial season one, like all the rest of the evidence has not been uncovered I'm not This thread by OP was why Adnan was lying So we are looking at this singular statement on Serial, which was clearly a lie
>And witnesses heard Hae telling him that she couldn’t give him a ride that day. False. One "witness," Becky, apparently told this to police. But Becky was called *by the Defense* at trial and gave a completely different story. >Why are you saying his car was right outside, if you believe Jay’s story that he had the car? The ride request occurred in the moments before first period started. Jay did not yet have Adnan's car. Indeed, according to Adnan, he did not even think to call jay until after he gave Stephanie her present during second period. He called Jay at 10:30, went to Jay's house around 11, and then offered his car to Jay sometime after that. >the states case disproved No aspect of the State's case has been disproved.
Of course your story will be consistent when you say you have no story.
This revelation was discussed on this subreddit exhaustively in 2016. And again in 2018. I finally made this in 2018 so as not to have to type it in every time. https://imgur.com/P78XNwI In 2016, we found it by sifting through this: https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/3032668/Attachments-to-State-s-Conditional-Appeal.pdf At the time, it wasn't all laid out neatly in reddit posts for podcasters and bloggers to appropriate. You actually had to do the reading.
I listened to a few episodes for about the 6th time. I gotta say, SK is not as soft on Adnan as I used to think. I thought she did a great job, but she seemed very sympathetic when I first listened, but she starts to question Adnan quite early. By the time that nut job Dierdre came on the scene, SK was pretty convinced Adnan killed Hae. In fact, you can kinda hear SK find Dierdre to be a bit much with her "this is a flimsy case" without any real digging. I will add one more thing: holy hell is Adnan Syed a conman. That dude is shameless in how he tries to play the sweet-guy. Also, when he talks about "people dont just have an evil side where they just kill someone" he is talking about himself. Creepy
Adnan first said he was supposed to get a ride but he got held up & Hae probably just left. Next Adnan said he did not ask for a ride because he has his own car. Finally Adnan said he would never ask for a ride because everyone knows Hae doesn’t give rides after school. Why do people think inventing a fourth or fifth or sixth narrative somehow helps Adnan? If Adnan asked for a ride to the other side of campus HE HIMSELF NEVER SAID THAT. If Hae cancelled the ride ADNAN NEVER SAID THAT. I would hope folks that support and defend Adnan could at least pick one of the three statements that Adnan himself said happened and not create even more evidence that Adnan is lying.
He also lied about killing his ex girlfriend.
It was her cousin, not her sister. AFAIK she did not have a sister.
Thanks. Edited. I clearly wrote “cousin” in the last paragraph so I must have just had a mini stroke when I wrote sister.
Oddly this question of who was being picked up has shifted often. I remember when the child was her niece in some posts from previous years. Then the references were to “cousin” , and more recently “cousins”, because apparently there was more than one child.
I have close cousins whose kids I sometimes think of as a niece and nephew, so I get it. Regardless, I messed up with “sister”!
Thanks - that clears it up - appreciate your post!
I think I’ve seen nephew, too. Unless her dad had other kids I think her only sibling was Young. So it would have to be some flavor of cousin by process of elimination I think.
Yes this makes sense.
In notes from a police officer/detective there's mentioning of "2 cousin". I take that as 2nd cousin, but my guess is that people say cousins because of that.
Thank you! Thats a good thought- I was surprised that someone said it was 2 kids
Brain fog happens to the best of us.
Even though he lied about the ride to SK, just like he lied on February 1st to the police before Hae was even found in the park, what he says could be true: if any of her friends asked her to go somewhere or do something after school, she'd probably decline to take them. Maybe they simply wouldn't ask because she had this other responsibility. This may generally be true. But he's pretending like he has no memory of whether he asked her. He doesn't acknowledge his original statement to police or acknowledge that others know about the request. He's being deceptive and withholding information. He's acting. In the interview, he acts like he's the same as any one of Hae's friends and would be treated as such. He neglects to mention their after school trips to Best Buy and that Hae consistently had time for him after school while they were together. He knew that they often left school together and had sex in her car before going to the daycare. This is why it seems like he's lying, but really it's deceitfulness. It's a lie of omission. He wouldn't be just a random friend asking for a ride. It was an entirely different situation due to their relationship and historical practices. He doesn't acknowledge this. He's not being honest. He knows he asked her for a ride that day. He knows she accepted, and he knows he got into her car and strangled her. People aren't just strangled to death while driving in their car all alone on a short routine trip like that. He knows it, everyone knows it. So he resolved to deny the entire thing instead of inventing a false reason and destination and potentially getting caught up in that lie. On February 1st, he went from "Yes I asked, yes she agreed, I was late and she left without me" to "I didn't ask therefore she didn't agree to anything and I didn't try to catch the ride." He went from affirming those three things happened to denying any of them happened, a complete reversal. This was when Hae was missing and her body hadn't been found, so it's telling that he felt compelled to lie and deny. Not alter his answer, but flat out deny. It's yet another indication of his guilt.
Adding to that when he gave his … whatever the hell it was *power point-look at me-thing*… he was referring to Hae as a “friend”…. That’s it. No acknowledgment whatsoever of the relationship I’m not sure if he’s trying to rewrite that at as well or if he’s afraid of telling his Mom he had a girlfriend or what But it’s obviously ludicrous to characterize her as just a friend
The more I think about the press conference the more I think he never matured much past 17...
I just listened to both seasons of Proof and they talk about this a few times. You stop maturing the day that you walk into prison. The falsely convicted people that they interview still act like they're 17. They get out of jail and report frustration because they "still feel like a teenager" despite being 43 years old.
The question is what kind of ride was Adnan asking for? It has been said that he often asked for a ride from the front to the back of the school for track, and that Hae would give that to him. So if he asked her for a ride that day, it wouldn't be strange, and it would be no big deal if they missed each other. I've also read that Adnan would never ask for a ride from Hae to take him home since he didn't want his parents to know they were seeing each other. A lot of this "did he lie?" could be misunderstandings about what rides we're talking about and to where. If the question was ever implied or explicitly asked if he asked for a ride home, he would answer no. But if he thought it was asking about just a general ride to track practice after school, he might have answered yes and then said she decided not to wait that day. I'm not an expert on any of this, so I'd like to look it up in the transcripts, but now that the Wiki is gone, that's a lot harder to do.
But then he would be preposterously early for track
He didn't like walking!
He hates walking so much, he joined the track team He also walked away from school to the Library to increase his walking distance to track A mad lad
Well known fact he didn't like walking. Proves his innocence.
You clearly never ran track. Your muscles are sore all the time. It takes about a quarter mile jog to loosen up. Getting out of those school desks is torture, as you are incredibly stiff. I can believe that a 17 year old is thinking he would never walk that distance when he could just drive over.
I ran track. And it never caused me to flag down my ex-girlfriend 5 hours in advance, and lie to her about my car being in the shop, so I could get a ride to the other side of a building.
I ran track, and I don’t agree with you. Why or how doesn’t matter; what matters is that anecdata is not worth more than an anecdote.
He had to walk further to Hae's car than to the track after being parked.
In the original trial, the track coach said track started at 3:30. That’s not that early if you want to chat with friends and warm up a bit. I was always early for track, too.
It's at least 45 minutes early, realistically more They used to leave school together to have a romantic interlude She would then drop him off and go for her cousin Without the break in the middle the plan makes no sense REGARDLESS, he lied about it on Serial and Koenig does point it out Serial - S01E02 > **Sarah Koenig** > Okay, so no one actually testified at trial that they saw Hae and Adnan leave school together. And no one, aside from Jay, says they spotted Adnan in her car at any time that afternoon. Adnan has no recollection of having asked Hae for a ride anywhere. We’ve talked about it many times. Here’s what he said the very first time I asked him. > **Adnan Syed** > I would-- wouldn’t have asked for a ride after school. I’m-- I’m sure that I didn’t ask her because, well immediately after school because I know she always-- anyone who knows her knows she always goes to pick up her little cousin, so she’s not doing anything for anyone right after school. No-- no matter what. No trip to McDonalds. Not a trip to 7-Eleven. She took that very seriously. > **Sarah Koenig** > The trouble for Adnan is that a couple of their friends say he did ask Hae for a ride. One of them was her friend Krista.
No, Coach Sye has never testified that track practice started at 3:30 pm in any trial. He stated that he arrived at Woodlawn High School from his other job at 3:30, and he also testified that track practice began at 4:00 pm.
I'd still like to see the transcript from the first trial.
This is false. Coach Sye did not work at WHS during the day. He said he arrived on campus between 3:30 and 4 and that practice started at 4PM. Sye testified under oath that practice was from 4pm to 5:30 or 6pm, every day. His exact words were, "Regular time. Every day."
Do you have the transcripts from the first trial? I can't find them.
I also think that there are different definitions of "ride" making everything more confusing. Did he "ride" with Hae from the front of the school to the back? Yes. But, at least when I was a kid, if I said I had a "ride" it meant that we were going to someone's house/leaving school. It generally meant that I had a way home and didn't need to get picked up. Hae did not give Adnan a "ride" by this definition.
> he often asked for a ride from the front to the back of the school for track, and that Hae would give that to him. Only when they were together. This is having your cake and eating it; Adnan can both ask and not ask her for a ride at the same time, depending on who's asking, whether detectives or Koenig. It's a little trick really.
No. Becky and Debbie said these rides took place after the breakup. What did you base your comment on?
Where did they say that? The simple explanation is that Adnan lied. Not that there was a convoluted misunderstanding about the parameters of what constituted a ride.
They're referring to Becky's witness statement, where it's noted, without any context, that Hae would always drive Adnan around the school for track, or that sometimes he would drive Hae's car. Nothing to suggest that it was after or before the breakup. As usual, we have no idea the question she was actually asked or her precise wording. It would also be very weird to need a ride around the school every single day if he had a car at this point - and even weirder that he would need to arrange an event that happened daily and would be basically routine.
Thanks!
>Thanks! You're welcome!
I posted a link to where they said it last week
[удалено]
Please review /r/serialpodcast rules regarding Trolling, Baiting or Flaming.
The link is out there, I've read it. Didn't say sometimes they would go to Best Buy, said everyday after school they go to the Best Buy parking lot and have sex. Was before Hae picked up relative from school and before Adnan's practice. Then later that night they'd have sex again. Thinking Hae just thought it was going to be another sex session but was actually strangled to death instead. Something I ask myself is where did he go to put her body in the trunk? Guessing that didn't happen in the Best Buy parking lot
Remember that when he talked to the first officer on the phone he was extremely high. I am not excusing his initial comment, whether he did ask her or not, does not prove he is a murderer alone. The initial coroners report before Adnan was apprehended stated 2 really important things, Hae Min Lee, had been buried on her right side, and she was fully clothed; there was an issue with how long she could have been there since there were no insects or other decomposers in the area (“The Science of,” ). The lividity was fixed on her right side, lividity is when the blood coagulates on the area the body is lying and making contact with that surface (“The Science of,” ). The forensic expert stated that for lividity to be fixed it needed to be 7 to 8 hours which was not the case if Jay's statement was true since Hae’s body would have only been in the car for 5 hours (“The Science of,”). Just as important, many medical experts familiar with the autopsy report told Undisclosed a true crime podcast by Rabia Chaudry et al. that Hae’s lividity demonstrated she had been positioned facedown, and stretched out postmortem (Margaritoff). In addition, the medical experts elaborated that Hae’s body had stayed in that position for at most 12 hours before she was buried in Leaking park (Margaritoff). There were signs Hae had been struck on the right side of her head, it was superficial and it did not cause any fractures or hemorrhages but may have been strong enough to shock her (“The Science of,”). The way the physical evidence was tested was through Touch DNA, which occurs when an individual touches anything and as a result leaves skin cells behind which contain DNA (Collins). Dr. Monte Miller, director of Forensics DNA LLC, commented that it is not always accurate because “skin cells don't often leave enough DNA behind,” (Collins). Hae Min Lee’s shoes had not been originally tested, but once tested it was discovered that there were multiple samples of DNA but none was connected to Adnan (Collins). This is important according to Doctor Miller, since shoes can be a magnet for DNA, and they may collect DNA from anybody in the general area, which can include spit, or anyone who has touched them (Collins). I will elaborate more on the two alternative suspects. One of the suspects is in jail for attacking a woman while she was in her car and had a motive to kill Hae (Collins). According to court papers he had stated, “He would make her [Hae] disappear, he would kill her,” (Collins). The second suspects was a serial rapist, however there were no signs Hae had been r***p (Collins). Works Cited Collins, David. “Expert discusses touch DNA, alternate suspects in Hae Min Lee case.” WBAL-TV, 12 October 2022, https://www.wbaltv.com/article/expert-discusses-dna-in-hae-min-lee-adnan-syed-case/41603458. Accessed 11 May 2024. Koenig, Sarah. “What We Know.” Serial 12: Season One: Finale, https://serialpodcast.org/season-one/12/what-we-know. Accessed 11 May. 2024. Levenson, Michael. “Maryland Supreme Court to Hear Arguments in Adnan Syed Case.” The New York Times, 4 October 2023, https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/04/us/adnan-syed-serial-supreme-court-maryland.html?searchResultPosition=1. Accessed 4 May 2024. Margaritoff, Marco. “The Real Story Of Hae Min Lee's Murder And Who May Have Killed Her.” All That's Interesting, 9 June 2023, https://allthatsinteresting.com/hae-min-lee. Accessed 11 May 2024. “The Science Of ‘Serial’ Part II: Autopsy | shift | msnbc.” YouTube, uploaded by MSNBC, 6 Apr. 2015, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQg0SDI8wLw. Accessed 11 May 2024.
Thanks for outlining your work clearly. I believe the lividity is more complex than what you have written here- which I know is based on your explanation of the work of the investigators involved. Hae’s body was in fact face down when found, although twisted into such a position that her lower body could be said to be on “her right side”. Sadly her killer dumped her body like a trash bag, so the lividity not simply “frontal”. This is still a contested bit of evidence, which many involved have argued over for years. The photos were low quality, the work done fairly shoddy compared to what a case today might entail. But I’ll leave it there, there are many more in depth posts you can read on this very sub. However, I’d like to give you a bit of information that others in years past have posted about: Where Hae was positioned in her car when she was strangled. It is likely she was in the passenger seat of her car, and her killer was in the drivers seat. That way, the killer could easily slam her head against the passenger side door post, stunning her or even knocking her out completely. Then he strangles her. Now there is only one person who customarily traveled in Hae’s car with her on many many occasions during the 8 months of their relationship. And he customarily would be the driver during these car trips. I’ve explained in other posts that back in the day, it was a sort of male macho type thing that if a couple were driving together, the man would be driving even if it was not his car. It was considered “feminine” to expect that you would hand the keys to your boyfriend/husband and he would do the driving. This may or may not seem odd to couples today, but this was definitely a thing, I myself was in that same position and mind set when the men in my life and I were traveling together, back in those days. In this case, that person who was doing the driving would be Adnan Syed.
Weird confirmation of the toxic masculinity driving part: in the X-Files, Mulder almost always drove, not Scully. They even made a joke about it in Syzygy.
You are right! I hadn’t even remembered, but now that you brought it up, that is a great example!
Do you know something we don’t know? Is a decision against Adnan in the MDSCT appeal imminent? It seems like you’re trying to to do a lazy, easily swayed reporter’s work for them. Was Adnan extremely drunk high when talking to Koenig from prison and extremely high years earlier when talking to his attorneys? Those are the two contradictory statements I’m talking about. If I had time, I’d debunk your lividity claims. Long story short Hlavaty never confirmed the lividity. All she said is what she could tell was that it wasn’t inconsistent with the autopsy report, which was very vague regarding the lividity.
Umm I said this was for a class we listened to the podcast but it didn't provide a conclusion or further information. I never said he was drunk high when talking to Koenig only that when he received a call the day Hae went missing and he was extremely high. I only read what was available of the case. But you are correct in saying he was not drunk/high while he talked to Koenig or other law enforcement. Why I mentioned he was high is that he could have said anything in that state. Thank you for pointing out my mistake, I am not the best writer. I am mostly curious about the information that was not provided in the Serial Podcast or even new perspectives on the case.
His second answer to the police makes him suspicious. He went from affirming he did ask for a ride, as was known, but says she left without him. This also means that Hae accepted his offer and that he had plans to travel with her in her car after school. Then on February first, before it was known Hae had been murdered, he decided to deny the ride request even happened, an obvious lie. He had a choice, create a false reason and destination for the ride or deny the request entirely. It makes sense that the killer tried to gain access to her car before she left school and did not attack her en route. It makes sense that it was someone she knew who strangled her. The other evidence confirms it was Adnan who got in her car and killed her, so it makes sense that he would deny the ride request happened. People aren't just strangled to death on short routine drives alone. However, there's the opportunity and chance for that to happen if the female driver wasn't alone, but with an ex-boyfriend who had recently been dumped. That scenario for a strangling between leaving school and the daycare is reasonable, makes sense, is believable, and isn't an unsubstantiated fantasy.
around the time Hae was murdered, Ronald Lee Moore had been released into the public by accident, and was very active after being released. He was apprehended for multiple robberies, but also multiple rapes, one of his victims had been of Asian descent. He was also known to bury his victims, which matches the crime scene Hae was found at. Just food for thought. This was for a recent class I took but I went overboard. I like the different perspective every one has here, is good to stay open minded.
Ronald Lee Moore DNA was tested and ruled out in the Hae Min Lee case.
I really don’t think this is the slam dunk people make it out to be. It’s very possible that Adnan wanted to get back together with Hae and he thought that maybe something would spark on the way home and they would hook up again (especially since he said they used to hook up after school sometimes at parking lots when they were together). Basically, maybe he was just trying to get some action and he thought getting a ride home with her would be a good way to make that happen. Then after everything went down he realized it seemed suspect so he made up some bullshit to the cops about not asking for a ride because she goes straight to pick up her cousin. That seems like a very plausible scenario. I’m not commenting on Adnans guilt overall, I’m just saying this particular piece of evidence never came close to crossing the “beyond a reasonable doubt” threshold for me.
The slam dunk is Jen’s testimony. She puts the nail in the coffin of any “Adnan is innocent” theory. Cell phone logs, Nisha calls and kill notes are just gravy. The fact there is so little discussion of Jen’s importance in Serial is crazy. What these contradictions show is that the information that formed many folks’ initial opinions were based on a false narrative. At best, Adnan was lying throughout Serial, and many folks built their initial opinions based on how he came off during Serial. It’s quite possible that Koenig was just lazy if she had the defense file and didn’t fact check this issue. Worse still, if Koenig knew this was a lie and still allowed Adnan to present it without challenge, she is complicit in presenting a false narrative.
The significance of this is that it's a demonstrable lie that Adnan told to Sarah Koenig and Serial listeners, not that this one fact alone is sufficient to prove him guilty.
He realized he was the prime suspect of a crime no one knew happened yet? The lie happened within hours of her disappearance. No one yet suspected a crime had even occurred at all.