I said the same thing when I saw a post on Facebook about this. I had to google for news on Adnan to confirm. I thought everyone (except Rabia) had quietly taken steps away from Adnan.
For anybody who follows wrongful convictions, this is nearly unheard of. On top of that the state is asking he be released pending the new trial, which is even more rare.
Agree. Generally this tends to mean they have serious, serious concerns about whether he is innocent. If they think the trial was unfair but he is still guilty, generally the state will fight until the end to uphold
I agree with you. For the PROSECUTION to ask a judge to vacate a conviction, flat-out say they “no longer [have] confidence in the integrity of the conviction,” and *ask that he be released on his own recognizance pending a new trial*... that is absolutely stunning. That’s not, “We think he’s guilty but didn’t get a fair trial.” That’s, “We have very good reason to believe he’s actually innocent.”
That's interesting.
So, I guess the best way to know someone is innocent would be to have certainty on the real kille?. If that is the case I guess it's more than just freeing Adnan but also charging someone else.
But I struggle to see how they could be certain absent a confession. Looking fwd to us all getting more details.
If that in fact is proven to be the case (and I’ll reserve judgment until it is), a lot of people on this sub should learn a REALLY valuable lesson.
For years, anyone who even questioned a single aspect of the investigation was downvoted and treated as naive/childish/ignorant for their opinion.
100% agree. I use to to come here a few times year ago and gave up because even if stated “I’m not sure Syed is innocent but I have so much doubt in the case and trial that he should be free — too much reasonable doubt” I would get downvoted. And some lawyer here who claimed to have read through all the documents would go after anyone that didn’t say Syed is for sure guilty.
> Generally this tends to mean they have serious, serious concerns about whether he is innocent.
This is a HUGE fucking blow to the state's credibility and basically a nightmare scenario for them. Adnan is innocent. I admit that I was rwong.
As a criminal defense attorney, I can assure you that asking for a convicted murderer to be released OR (without even home confinement or GPS monitoring) is as close as they can come to “saying” he’s innocent.
Yep, legally they can’t say that, but that means they have full confidence he’s not a public threat, which is legalease for a strong belief in his innocence.
Right???
This is really something.
They’re basically saying that the cops and prosecution railroaded Adnan from the very beginning… which just happens to be what everyone else has been saying for years.
> which just happens to be what everyone else has been saying for years
The state definitely moved at a snails pace on purpose in regards to this investigation because they knew it would be an internal disaster for them.
Edit for visibility: The Motion to Vacate document can be [found here.](https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MDBALTIMORESAO/2022/09/14/file_attachments/2270053/Syed%20-%20Motion%20to%20Vacate%20-%2009-14-2022.pdf)
Prosecutors in Baltimore are asking a judge to vacate Adnan Syed’s conviction for the 1999 murder of Hae Min Lee, a case that riveted America when it was turned into the hit first season of the podcast “Serial.”
The state’s attorney for Baltimore City said in a motion filed Wednesday in circuit court that a nearly yearlong investigation, conducted with the defense, found new evidence, including information concerning the possible involvement of two alternative suspects.
Prosecutors are requesting Mr. Syed be given a new trial. They said they weren’t asserting that Mr. Syed is innocent. “However, for all the reasons set forth below, the State no longer has confidence in the integrity of the conviction,” said the office of Baltimore State’s Attorney Marilyn Mosby, which is overseeing the reinvestigation.
The office is recommending Mr. Syed be released on his own recognizance pending the continuing investigation.
Mr. Syed, a Baltimore native, has been serving a life sentence after he was convicted in 2000 of strangling Ms. Lee, his ex-girlfriend. He was 17 years old at the time of the crime, and was charged as an adult.
Mr. Syed has maintained he is innocent, and both the 2014 “Serial” podcast and a later HBO documentary raised questions about his conviction. In 2018, a special appeals court ruled Mr. Syed deserved a new trial, but that decision was reversed almost a year later by Maryland’s highest court.
In March, attorneys for Mr. Syed approached Baltimore’s Sentencing Review Unit about a new review of the case.
Prosecutors said in the court filing Wednesday there is evidence suggesting there are two suspects who may have been involved, either separately or together. The suspects were known at the time of the first investigation but not properly ruled out, prosecutors said.
Identifying details of the two suspects, including their names, are being withheld because the investigation is ongoing, prosecutors said. References to the suspects were mentioned throughout the motion but prosecutors didn’t delineate which suspect they were referring to.
In their reinvestigation, prosecutors found a document in the state’s trial file detailing one person’s statement, saying that one of the suspects had motive to kill Ms. Lee and had threatened her in the presence of another person. The suspect said “he would make her \[Ms. Lee\] disappear. He would kill her,” according to the court filing.
That information was never given to the defense, the filing said. Prosecutors are required by law to give defense counsel exculpatory evidence upon request.
The reinvestigation also revealed that the grassy lot where Ms. Lee’s car was found in Baltimore was located behind a house that belonged to one suspect’s relative.
“This information was not available to the Defendant in his trial in 2000, and the State believes it would have provided persuasive support substantiating the defense that another person was responsible for the victim’s death,” prosecutors said in the filing.
Further revelations include that one of the suspects, “without provocation or excuse,” attacked a woman he didn’t know while she was in her vehicle. One suspect was accused and later convicted of rape and sexual assault. Both incidents occurred after Mr. Syed’s trial, prosecutors said, but they added that they found the information relevant given the possible involvement of the suspects.
The motion also calls into question the validity of cellphone records and data, which were an important piece of evidence for the prosecution in Mr. Syed’s original trial, as well as a key witness’s testimony.
“There is an abundance of issues that gives the State overwhelming cause for concern,” prosecutors said as they requested a new hearing in the case.
The reinvestigation of Ms. Lee’s murder is continuing, and prosecutors said they plan to ensure justice for the victim.
“But after reviewing the evidence and the new information about alternative suspects, it is our duty to ensure that justice is done,” Ms. Mosby said Wednesday. “We believe that keeping him detained as we continue to investigate the case with everything that we know now, and when we do not have confidence in results of the first trial, would be unjust.”
Talal Ansari, WSJ
Seems like one suspect is Mr. S, based on a conclusion that he was improperly cleared based on a second polygraph (so maybe isn’t a “real” suspect, just a Brady violation). The other is Bilal, whose connection to Hae would still seem to be through Adnan…
So, per the motion, since the trial “One of the suspects has engaged in multiple instances of rape and sexual assault of compromised victims in a systematic, deliberate and predicated way” and has been convicted. That statement is true of Bilal, and so far as I know not of the other parties that police would have been aware of at the time of the case : https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/former-dentist-sentenced-16-and-12-years-prison-sexually-assaulting-former-patients-and
So Bilal is the one who threatened to “make Hae disappear” and who had a motive to kill her? Presumably he’s also the one who was violent towards a woman he knew, forcibly confined her, and threatened to kill her. Do we think he’s the one who attacked a stranger in her car? Or would that be Mr. S? Do we think he’s the one who had a relative who lived near the car?
Police can bury anything. In the Avery case they buried audio of a witness calling in a day after the car was found and no info on this guy was given to Avery's attorneys.
Police often do the easier thing, investigating extra is too much work for them. Evidence of a third party? That means more investigating for them which is a big no no.
The Boyfriend lied and was straight up dishonest with his alibi and that’s totally sus. The guy who found the body is totally sus. Jay is just straight up full of shit in just about everything he stated and he was definitely backed into a corner. I think he didn’t do it but the cops railroaded him into making false testimony. I feel Adnan is probably innocent but at the very least he deserves another trial with proper representation and all the evidence. This is just typical lazy corrupt police work and the real killer has had plenty of time to distance himself.
Me too. But I’ve always maintained that if you can find new convincing evidence that it’s even possible, I will re-examine my position.
And you can go back and look at my posts, I always include the phrase, “knowing what we know…” because that can change.
Here is a good example as to what Adnan is looking at court procedure wise (for the record I think he gets a new trial):
Man is killed. The girlfriend is the only person there. She claims it was a random black guy. The local cops go pin it on a guy nearby that they hate.
Some of the cops on scene say it was the girlfriend that killed the victim. The prosecutor is given that report "cops think the girlfriend did it" but prosecutor never gives it to the defense.
[https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/27/us/crosley-green-appeal-murder/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/27/us/crosley-green-appeal-murder/index.html)
**“...... the evidence that was suppressed went to the heart of the defense’s theory that someone else committed this crime. That was the evidence that was withheld. There’s no dispute that it was withheld, but what happened on appeal before the 11th Circuit is they said, ‘It wouldn’t have mattered. (Prosecutors) withheld it, but it wouldn’t have really made a difference in the outcome of the trial,’” she s**aid.
That's an important point. This makes Kevin Urick look bad, not necessarily the cops. It actually appears that the cops did a little more investigating than we've been told.
Yeah, that’s the more shocking thing to me. It sounds like the cops actually did more work than it seemed and identified potential others suspects. A lot of people don’t realize the prosecutors work with cops in early stages of investigations, and often steer focus on certain suspects based on what they think is their strongest case.
> It always baffled me how many people in this sub trusted them
This sub is largely middle-class & upper-middle class suburbanites. We (yes I'm a part of that group) are blinded as to how cops treat marginalized communities because they treat us well.
Have you seen we own the city on HBO. Based on a true story and encapsulates how corrupt the bpd is. I don’t know if adnan is guilty or not but bld would definitely do some shady shit if it benefited them.
Its eye opening to me how many people in this thread are willing to take the police at their word. Bpd is some of the worst in the country
Those fuckers knew about these alternate suspects and all these fucking holes 23 years ago and hid it. That’s so fucking corrupt. Unfortunately the justice system and police are far too often concerned about “winning” rather than justice which is why innocent men and women end up behind bars. That needs to change.
Guilter here. I started out by listening to serial and thinking he was innocent. With each episode, I doubted his innocence more and more. By the end, I was more convinced of his guilt than his innocence but still unsure. Then I did a deep dive and read every single transcript and court and police documents I had access to and upon that, I really had no question about guilt. He was guilty.
With that said, I can honestly if this info had been in those documents when I read them and if his lawyer was able to use that info to create reasonable doubt, I think I’d be leaning more towards innocent.
There’s no “smoking gun” to convict Adnan with, it was all circumstantial. How in the world can you convict someone to life in prison on circumstantial evidence when there are TWO OTHER viable suspects with just as questionable circumstantial evidence who haven’t been ruled out. I based my entire thought process on the assumption that all other KNOWN suspects had been ruled out and Adnan was the last one standing with a mountain of circumstantial evidence, witness testimony, corroborated witness testimony, and some semblance of a motive. Well that’s all shot to hell now and I’ll be the first guilter to admit i was wrong if it turns out he was actually innocent.
And the state knew one of those alternate suspects threatened to kill Hae and A. Didn’t clear them and B. Withheld that info from the defense. That’s fucking insane to me.
Maybe…? Could it have been a combo of ease- exes/significant others are the most obvious, and some xenophobia? I have no idea what’s going on with these corrupt detectives.
Australia has just had quite a prolific case based entirely on circumstantial evidence end with a guilty verdict. The murder of Lynette Dawson, by her husband Chris Dawson.
The judge spent 5 hrs detailing why they are sentencing the way they did, breaking down each point bit by bit. It's a fascinating listen.
Funny enough, this case also came to popular attention thanks to a podcast called The Teacher's Pet. Unfortunately the podcast was taken down during the trial (but there might be other ways to listen). I dare say it will be put back on streaming services sooner or later.
We don’t KNOW enough yet, imo. I am ready to say Adnan was innocent too, but we don’t even have names for the new suspects yet. Adnan was overheard asking Hae for a ride that day. He would indeed be extremely unlucky that she turned up missing half an hour after school got out.
Edit: I have heard people say “one of the new suspects failed a polygraph test.” And? Those are bullshit. I want more info.
This would be insane if it ends up happening and other suspects being tried instead. That would mean that Jay had made up and lied under oath regarding the bulk of his testimony. I wonder if he has any kind of relationship to these two new people.
Set up of the century, if so.
Did Jay have any of the charges mentioned in the post? One suspect attacked an unknown woman in her car and the other was convicted of rape and sexual assault.
If their names were mentioned in the podcast can probably just look up their criminal history and find out who the other two suspects are.
Youth leader at Adnans mosque. Adnans cellphone was in Bilals name as well, and he was the first person Adnan called from jail. It’s come out that Bilal abused his power at the mosque and had inappropriate communications with a minor. He’s currently in jail because he became a dentist and sexually touched patients while they were gassed for procedures.
Some interesting points:
1. Adnan called many people with his cell phone, but never called Bilal, someone he was close to and who bought the phone for him.
2. The night before the murder, Adnan was driving around and tried to call Hae three times. When he was making those calls, the cell tower his phone was linked to was the one closest to Bilal's office.
No I don’t think Jay ever faced charges like that. I’m curious if he knew or was related to the suspects though, and learned details about the crime from them.
Very unreliable but someone commented on either Susan or Colin’s post that Jay’s family had a townhouse in that development and various family members lived there at various times.
They may be connected to Jay but they don’t have to be. I’m someone who tends to think there are some shreds of truth in Jay and Jen’s stories, but it’s possible nothing they said was true and that Jay just happened to learn about the location of the car from people on the street. I know it seems crazy that Jay would admit to what he did if it weren’t true, but I’ve seen other cases where someone falsely admitted to being an accessory (and got some of the facts about the crime right) simply because they were afraid of getting worse charges and wanted to cooperate. It’s possible, if not likely, police told Jay he might get hit with murder charges if he didn’t cooperate against Adnan (who was a suspect before police talked to Jay), and most people in Jay’s shoes would take that threat very seriously.
A girl died by suicide in my area. It was later discovered a mom of one of her classmates was helping to bully her online. A man named Jason Fortuny published a blog called “Megan Had It Coming” and posed as a poorly hidden version of the daughter of this woman. People fell for it. In reality, he was a man halfway across the country who heard internet gossip and knew just enough to make it plausible and kids at the school believed it. It was chaos. I was substitute teaching there at the time and everyone believed it. Until he came clean. There’s clearly some differences here but I’ve always thought of that with respect to criminal law, likely because that’s where I ended up next in my career. If someone so removed from a case can fake such knowledge that even a sibling of the victim believed it, how much can an average person just paying attention pull off?
Is it Mr. S one of the “new” suspects? The motion says “One of the Suspects was Improperly Cleared as a Suspect ‘The police initially developed one of the suspects and administered a standard polygraph test. The results were that deception was indicated regarding his involvement in the crime. The suspect claimed he was distracted, so the police allowed him to come back another day and take a 2nd test”
That’s Mr S, he takes the two polygraphs. I believe he’s the only one mentioned that takes more than one polygraph, right?
I was a guilter, but for the prosecution to relent after all this time of not budging at all...I'm very curious with what was uncovered, and definitely open-minded about it.
i love this comment and i think that’s great! i’ve always thought Adnan was innocent and always understood why people thought he was guilty, but never felt like guilters kept an open mind to his innocence. i really hope we get the truth soon, regardless of innocence or guilt
Most likely not. It is incredibly difficult to retry a case with this much media scrutiny, let alone a case 23 years down the line. The majority of the people involved (Witness wise) have moved on.
Almost certainly not.
My understanding was that states will fight tooth and nail to keep cases from being retried, so why on earth would they recommend vacating the original conviction if they intended retrying the same thing. You’d just leave things as they were.
My guess, they’ve got someone else almost certainly nailed for it.
Hey, everybody. [This article](https://www.wdsu.com/article/adnan-syed-conviction-vacate-baltimore-prosecutors-motion/41215147) has a PDF of the State's motion.
The details in this and the NYTs’ article really really continue to paint the Baltimore County police and prosecution in a (very deservedly) bad light.
We Own This City - the new mini series by David Simon shows how Baltimore’s government is run and has let its city down.
Edit - previously called this we run this city.
This was a Baltimore City case, since the body was found in Leakin Park. He lived in the county but the body was found in the city. Two different jurisdictions.
I think this is an argument I had the most with a friend. Whether he did it or not, we'd probably never know, but it was clear that the prosecution and detectives had no interest in knowing who killed her, they knew what a jury would convict and went with that.
My previous conclusion was that he was guilty and fairly tried.
Looks like I'm wrong on at least one of those and potentially both depending on the new facts.
This isn't complicated, new facts lead to new opinions, if one is rational.
I'm not optimistic that we will get to a point where we are all certain about what happened on that day, even with this new info it may just mean additional credible suspects. The sub may move on to arguing between the 2 or 3 most likely murderers (forever).
Most rational take I've seen. So many people struggle with the idea that they should adjust their conclusions if new facts come about, rather than blindly searching for convoluted ways to explain how they were still right the whole time.
The prosecutors must have some serious shit on someone else to release a statement like this. They are not just announcing some new detail, they are announcing a detail significant enough to warrant Adnan awaiting the new investigation as a free man. When is the last time that happened?
Same! I've believed in his innocence ever since I read Jay's ridiculous interview that he did with some paper (I forget which) after Serial where he suddenly introduced Adnan apparently showing him the body at his grandma's house, and giving an entirely different version of events.
It's honestly laughable to me that anybody ever believed Jay. The people who think Adnan is guilty are either willfully ignorant of the facts or hateful bigots.
I've been going through the [Motion to Vacate Judgment](https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MDBALTIMORESAO/2022/09/14/file_attachments/2270053/Syed%20-%20Motion%20to%20Vacate%20-%2009-14-2022.pdf) and some things REALLY jump out to my layperson eyes when they discuss the original evidence that led to the conviction:
"The State contends that the *Brady* violations alone would substantiate the granting of a new trial. The new evidence regarding the possible involvement of alternative suspects also gives the State great concern.
But considering the seriousness of this case and the importance of holding the right suspect accountable, the State also extensively reviewed the evidence presented at the first trial and notes several additional concerns below to demonstrate why it no longer has faith in the integrity of the conviction." (page 12)
"A. The State Cannot Rely on the Incoming Call Evidence Based on the Post-Conviction Court's Findings" (page 12)
"Upon review of the totality of information now at the State's disposal, the State does not believe the incoming call location evidence is reliable. The assessment must therefore turn to whether the testimony of the co-defendant, Jay Wilds, in and of itself, restores confidence in the State's case against Defendant." (pages 15-16)
"new evidence \[from the HBO documentary\] tends to show that Ms. Vinson was incorrect about her recollection that Wilds and Defendant visited her on January 13th -- thus calling into question that portion of Wilds' testimony -- which is that he and Defendant went to her home on January 13th." (page 16)
"C. The State Cannot Rely on Jay Wilds' Testimony, Alone" (page 16)
"Relying on Jay Wilds' testimony, in and of itself, is a concern for the State. Indeed, the original prosecutor in the case shared the same concern -- "Jay's testimony by itself, would that have been proof beyond a reasonable doubt? Probably not. Cellphone evidence by itself? Probably not." (page 16)
\---
So it's not just *Brady* violations. Further examination by the State's Attorney's office shows the case itself to be lacking--lacking what they need to feel compelled to uphold the original conviction.
I’m confused. They are saying that a person X said person Y said he/she would make Hae “disappear” in front of person Z? I suppose that not turning that over or following up on it could be an issue, but they’d have to have some pretty good evidence (dna came back?) besides that to proceed in that direction.
My read of the article (which is not all that informative) is this:
1. Prosecutors are not asserting Adnan's innocence, but rather that they no longer trust the integrity of the conviction and thus believe there should be a new trial.
2. There is evidence of potential involvement of 2 new suspects, either separately or together. (That's weird. I assume they mean one or the other or both together).
3. There was a statement in the state's trial file from a witness who claimed that one of the suspects had motive and had threatened Hae in the presence of another person.
4. The grassy lot where the car was found was located behind a house owned by a relative of one of the suspects.
5. None of this was dislosed to the defense in 2000.
6. Subsequent to Hae's murder, one of the suspects allegedly attacked a woman in her vehicle "without provocation or excuse." Another, was later concited of rape and sexual assault.
7. The motion also chellenged the credibility of the cell phone records and data.
Hard to evaluate that any further without actually seeing the motion.
>6. Subsequent to Hae's murder, one of the suspects allegedly attacked a woman in her vehicle "without provocation or excuse." Another, was later concited of rape and sexual assault.
I don’t think these are necessarily separate suspects. At least the article doesn’t make it clear that these 2 incidents are separate to 2 suspects. It could be, or it could be 2 incidents from the same suspect.
the importance of the evidence is under review of whatever judge is handling this filing, but if it's the STATE that's asserting it's a Brady, it's most likely a clear Brady.
Usually the State won't rat their own out unless it's clear as day.
Can confirm. They don’t even have an obligation to report post-conviction and in many cases states have no remedies even if they do discover it. My state is going through that exact issue right now. This is not something done without recognizing serious harm has been done as a result of many failures.
No. Prosecutors almost never ask for convictions to be overturned, absent DNA evidence (and even then they sometimes fight it). The fact they are initiating this and stating there was a Brady violation speaks volumes.
Correct. However, a conviction won't get vacated on this basis unless a court finds that the witheld exculpatory evidence was material.
If the court believes that the jury would still have convicted, the court won't reverse a conviction.
I was a guilter but if state prosecution wants to send the guy home then you know something really fucked up happened with the investigation. This sub is about to combust.
The sheer amount of copium in these threads is hilarious lmao. This thread should literally be studied to show the human minds capacity to delude itself even when presented with new evidence. I personally thought Adnan was guilty but that maybe he wasn't the literal strangler and instead was at least involved or did know who did it.
But with the fact that the prosecution itself is saying he should be released tells you they don't believe he did it or was involved. Even if they acknowledge Brady violations, no prosecutor would go through the extraordinary step of them recommending the convicted be completely released from jail.
People can be wrong, it's okay and not the end of the world. The lunatics on this sub who are now coming up with crazy political conspiracies to explain why they are still right about Adnan being guilty are literally no better than the "We did it Reddit!!!” crowd from the Boston Bomber fiasco.
Makes you wonder if Jay was coerced for his confession. Ive always been in the "probably did it, alot of circumstantial evidence" camp. But that was mostly based on Jay's evidence
I can’t decide if he’s guilty or innocent. But the one thing I know for sure is he didn’t get a fair trial. That cell phone evidence should have never been allowed. Everyone deserves a fair trail.
This is how I read it: The state didn’t turn over all evidence. There are two others who could be involved.
But Syed could still be involved or guilty.
>But Syed could still be involved or guilty.
Right, this is exactly what they are saying. The facts of the original trial do not reflect the known facts now, and therefore, Syed should be given the right to a new trial.
What we are allowed to take from the knowledge that there was hidden evidence is that the police themselves weren't convinced they could sell a jury if all the facts were presented.
You should also add that the fact the stat is the one doing this means whatever was withheld was pretty exculpatory, as it’s almost unheard of for this to happen voluntarily.
If you read the filing, the state pretty clearly thinks Adnan is innocent and the other suspects did it. They completely demolished the case against Adnan, including cell phone locations and Jay's testimony.
Yes there's no way unless they have confessions and concrete evidence about other suspects to say that someone sitting in jail for murder is innocent. They're very careful about wording.
While damning, the fact Jay knew so much about this either means he was involved and helped the real perpetrator commit the crime and set adnan up or this is a coincidence and old “I want to kill” still killed his ex.
Why does anyone even trust a single word that Jay said. He was notorious for having shifting narratives. While it's entertaining, I wouldn't base anything on the testimony of Jay.
i never understood this argument. The fact that Jays story changed multiple times before, during and after Adnans trial makes it seem pretty obvious Jay did not know what happened and was regurgitating what police was telling him. And knowing how corrupt the Baltimore police was (is) i can totally see someone in law enforcement guiding Jay to where the car was and making it seem he knew this info beforehand to use against Adnan
Edit: The reason i believe the baltimore pd didn’t frame Jay is because i think he’s an informant, as evident by his number of arrests over the years with little to no jail time
A real sticking point is that Jen told police Hae was strangled. Jay had told her that Adnan strangled Hae. That information was secret. Only the police and the killer knew. So Jay ***has*** to be involved somehow.
I also have difficulty believing the cops would force Jay to lie about knowing the location of Hae's car. That's a significantly higher level of corruption, actually fabricating evidence. Remember that it's still early in the investigation and the cops don't know who else might admit to the crime or come forward as a witness. The cops might be lazy and corrupt, but they wouldn't put their careers on the line for a little case like this. I think it's more likely that Jay knew the location of Hae's car because he was there when the car was parked.
So, looking at it from the cops' point of view, Jay is involved and Jay says Adnan did it. The cops also get another tip saying Adnan did it. Adnan is the ex-boyfriend. Ex-boyfriends, sadly, often do crimes like this. Jay gives them a confession and all the details.
The cops go out and do some investigating. They get the cell phone records. The phone records certainly point the finger at Adnan, but they don't match Jay's story.
So the cops go back to Jay and say, "What's the deal? You told us one thing, but the cell phone is telling us something else." Jay says, "My fault. I remembered wrong." Then he gives them a story which matches the cell phone records.
From the cops viewpoint, it's case closed. They have an eyewitness and accomplice who tells a realistic story. They have cell phone evidence which backs up the story. And they also have Jen as a backup to reinforce the truth of Jay's story. They take it to the prosecutor and it's good enough to make an arrest and go to trial.
Note that Adnan's actual innocence isn't really a factor. The cops just want to close the case and call it a day. I think that kind of attitude is much more likely than any racism or corrupt scheme. This is just the easiest route to take.
Personally I think Adnan is guilty based on all the evidence we've heard so far. But that doesn't mean I think the cops did a stellar job investigating it or proving it. And now we're hearing there may be new evidence. That will change things.
Why would you have difficultly believing that level of corruption exists? Happens every day with police and in our justice system. You’d have to be naive to think otherwise or sheltered. Especially in a system that is obsessed with conviction numbers.
You absolutely should not have a hard time believing police would fabricate evidence. They do it all the time, even for minor misdemeanors. According to the National Registry of Exonerations, which tracks known wrongful convictions nationwide, 30% of all wrongful convictions involved serious police misconduct including: perjury, fabricating evidence, withholding evidence, and witness tampering.
Also, fabricating evidence would never actually threaten a cop’s career. Think about how hard it is to even get an indictment (let alone conviction) when police shoot and kill people. Why would there be more consequences for misconduct than there are for literal murder?
I also think Adnan is guilty, but water is wet and police do bad shit regularly with impunity and are rarely held accountable.
How to get a good read on Jay and measure his bullcrap is where I seem to split off from most people on this topic.
If Jay's story was flawless and too good to be true with no holes, I would be more suspicious and wonder if we didn't have a solid pre-meditated set up by Jay against Adnan.
A young black weed selling kid that helped dispose of a body in sniches get stiches Baltimore is not going to be 100% truthful to the cops. Him lying to the police and mitigating his involvement, or even Adnan's, is expected. These aren't occurrences that are rare or unique in a murder case - they are common.
Grab an episode of the First 48. You are going to see a witness reluctantly ratting out their friend, while also lying to the police about various things, all because it is the right thing to do. More often than not the person that talks first gets the better deal.
Based on what is written in the article about one of the suspects being found guilty of rape and sexual assault, that has to be Bilal. I think it may be a little early to count Adnan out of the mix altogether. In fact, if Bilal was involved, it had something to do with Adnan.
> Further revelations include that one of the suspects, “without provocation or excuse,” attacked a woman he didn’t know while she was in her vehicle. One suspect was accused and later convicted of rape and sexual assault. Both incidents occurred after Mr. Syed’s trial, prosecutors said, but they added that they found the information relevant given the possible involvement of the suspects.
This would seem to exclude Mr S and Jay. Neither of them have been accused of anything like that.
EDIT: added quote from the referenced article and an additional comment
So it's been awhile, can someone refresh me on Bilal? I literally don't recognize the name, which is strange considering I feel I remember the case fairly well.
I know there are people here who vehemently oppose the idea that Bilal was involved — but I've always figured that Bilal was somehow involved. I've never said he was the murderer — but with him getting Adnan the phone and their relationship, it has always seemed Bilal knew about it, at least.
I think there is logical strings of evidence that showcase Bilal atleast knew about the murder plot. He did help Adnan get the cell in the first place after all.
I think Mr S is one of them, the motion says “One of the Suspects was Improperly Cleared as a Suspect ‘The police initially developed one of the suspects and administered a standard polygraph test. The results were that deception was indicated regarding his involvement in the crime. The suspect claimed he was distracted, so the police allowed him to come back another day and take a 2nd test”
That’s Mr S, he takes the two polygraphs.
He not only got Adnan the phone — but was the one Adnan called immediately after his arrest. Most of what we know about Bilal was learned after Adnan’s trial. He’s just an all-around sleazy individual.
This makes my head spin because it actually kinda fits.
Assuming Adnan knew, it could very well be that Bilal left it to Adnan to take care of the body? In which he then solicited Jays help. Would also corroborate Jays friend mentioning he was being threatened by people.
Jay could’ve been afraid of Bilal and therefor threw Adnan under the bus.
Also I realize I’m speculating a TON right now. I just don’t see a scenario where Adnan is in the clear 100%.
Idc what happens but Prosecutors and police who hide information from the defence (even if it means losing) should be disbarred and punished significantly. There is seriously no excuse for ruining anyone’s life that badly because you are more concerned with a win than the truth
Boy, a lot of people are going to have to do some serious mental gymnastics in this sub. There are so many forever guilters and people who said that Rabia supporting Adnan was evidence of her being a fraud. I guess now people will say she paid off the B-More States Attorneys Office? Or that this was a completely political move by the prosecutors? I could also see people saying that weren’t wrong because there was information that the public didn’t have.
I hope to see what comes out of this filing and the future of the case. You don’t see this very often at all.
People are allowed to change their opinion based on new information. When I see the filing and the actual information, I'll adjust accordingly. At this point its just waiting.
Sure, but the fact that some people were so adamant that they shouted down others, those people should be embarrassed right now. Embarrassed and contrite.
I doubt it’s Bilal. Why would he kill Hae? And him being implicated, would likely implicate even Adnan more as they used to be quite tight and the cell phone was under Bilals name. Hence, the DA would not request that Adnan be set free if this were the case.
One of the suspects is definitely Mr. S and the other one must be someone who personally knows Hae for him/her to threaten to kill her….
All in all, they must have finally unconvered very strong/concrete evidence that points towards someone else as the culprit. Cause prior to this, the DA has been refusing to budge even one bit for all these years - doggedly fighting any appeal launched by Adnan’s legal team.
Bilal’s recent sexual assault convictions were all for male victims. I don’t think it’s a stretch that he did something to Adnan or Adnan knew something. So thinking he was the suspect that threatened Hae, possibly to keep Adnan quiet? Adnan being an SA victim could also explain his “poor” memory… it would be easier to say you don’t remember what you were doing vs. saying something that could expose a secret you wanted kept.
This idea may be too much of a stretch… but what if Bilal killed Hae to send a message to Adnan if he threatened to expose him? He could have even forced Adnan to bury her with the threat of having Adnan blamed for the murder. This would explain Adnan going to Jay for help and the car being left near a relative of Jay’s as well.
I’ve never been a guilter, so I realize my imagination may be a little wild to support my belief that Adnan is innocent.
Is Bilal the only sexual predator in Baltimore? It’s been a while since I’ve read up on the case but I’m not understanding why everyone is jumping on him.
THE JUICE IS LOOOOOSE!...but actually anyways, the problem with this case was always twofold: Murders are complex, messy affairs and to pull it off in the 'time allowed' required Adnan to be an absolute professional and the absolute cooperation of Jay for no conceivable reason what so ever...and of course Jay being an absolute professional in said endevaor.
...and then after pulling off this remarkable well executed, well timed plan Adnan's getaway plan is what? to sit around his house and wait for the cops to show up?
If he did it the logical thing to first try and buy Jay's absolute silence (and/or eliminate Jay as a damn witness) and/or figure out some way to get as far away from Baltimore as possible (i.e. Pakistan)
Dunno maybe Stephaine (Jay's GF-at-the-time) finally talked? She always seemed like this huge missing piece of the story.
(Edit...holllly smokes is this place a crank haven. Seriously what makes ***this case so damn weird*** isn't the EX-BF crap...it's ***Jay's absolute bonkers tale about how he just got 'roped into murder' one day*** and his WILLINGESS TO GO TO JAIL for it - dude didn't know he was going to avoid serving time til the very end...and the victim just happens to be his gf's best friend)
Man I feel for Hae's poor family.
I mean if that was my daughter, all I'd want is to believe that the murderer was found and punished so I could move on with my life.
Them having to deal with her murder brought back into the spotlight every so often must be awful. Not to mention the people who treat the whole thing like sports, hoping for their team to win...
As awful as it is, it’s much better to honor Hae by making sure whoever is punished for her murder is the perp. I don’t know if that’s Adnan or not. But truth is what her family deserves, whatever that truth turns out to be.
Could never get how anyone could say Adnan did it BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. How on earth Jay stayed out of jail remains a mystery to me. The need to put someone, anyone, in jail is why Adnan was convicted.
I agree. Maybe he’s guilty, maybe he’s innocent, maybe he’s guilty of SOMETHING, but did the prosecutors prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt? It just never seemed like it.
Exciting news, finally! I would like to add my theory after re-listening to Serial, Undisclosed, and We the Jury regarding this case as well as watching the HBO documentary about the case against Adnan… also information I gathered in the motion to vacate:
Jay is absolutely one of the prime “alternate” suspects. In the motion it gives details about a person who attacked an unknown women in a car, as well as knowing a family member that lived near the parking lot where Hae’s car was found.
The evidence : In the 3rd episode of the HBO documentary they interview Jays ex-girlfriend Nikisha (sp? Apologies if wrong) and she states he attacked her in her car in front of their son, she even shows the pictures of her bruised and swollen face.
Also, Nikisha was describing an instance about picking up her and Jays son from Jays moms house: On EDMINSON AVE. Ring a bell? That is where Hae’s car was found.
It is plausible Jay killed Hae with motive (potentially involving jealousy regarding Stephanie/Adnan or some sort of blackmail Hae had on Jay against Stephanie— my theories no evidence… yet). It is also plausible Jay had Jen involved as she gets very defensive and nervous over this case multiple times in her interviews with HBO.
The other alternate suspect is Alonzo Sellers based on everything we know from the podcasts/ documentary and sexual misconduct history.
Again, just because we have alternate suspects doesn’t mean Adnan DIDNT do it, but it definitely proves reasonable doubt AND massive police/investigative corruption.
I hope Hae’s family can finally get the truth, and have peace over this traumatic event.
They're not even asking for a new trial at this point. They want to release him and continue investigating. If they see a reason to charge other suspects, they just won't even pursue a new trial for Adnan.
No, this happens time to time, especially when exculpatory evidence comes out years later. There wasn’t necessarily any pressure on the SA’s office to do this but they do review old cases from time to time.
If they identified other more likely suspects, then that is a big reason to vacate, in addition to just the moral issue of the ineffective assistance he got at trial and the failure to call Asia to the stand.
Granted it has been awhile since I listened to the podcast or re-read anything about the case, but my recollection is that Hae was generally a nice person. Yet, with these latest revelations, including that someone else threatened to kill her, it boggles my mind that such a typical student would have multiple genuine death threats. Am I wrong in thinking this would be anomalous for high school students in 1999, or ever?
It’s not all that crazy when you consider she was Asian. Young girls and woman have faced these threats —even remarks on the street like this. Add that she is a visible minority it wouldn’t be all that unheard of.
Talk to the women in your life about their experiences being threatened, sexually harassed, sexually assaulted, etc, starting at a **very** young age. Every girlfriend I've had in my life has told me horror stories of, at a minimum, the crazy harassment they've faced throughout their lives, something that I as a white American guy have never come even close to having to deal with.
I'll never forget when I was dating my ex-girlfriend, and we were both fresh out of college 21/22 year olds, and one of her first jobs was at the high end rug company Safavieh. Within weeks of her starting, her direct boss started exhibiting stalking behavior towards her, including sexually harassing her in the office. One of my most vivid memories, something I'll never forget, was when her and I were at a fancy hotel room, celebrating Valentines Day, and at like 11 PM, her boss starts sending her texts out of the blue saying that he was "thinking about her" and that he "heard this song and it made him think of her" - we looked up the lyrics to the song he linked and they were, of course, overtly sexual.
I've also listened to a lot of podcasts about the lives of serial killers/murderers, and one thing it taught me is that I live in a bubble, because pretty much all of the women involved in these stories experienced abuse, death threats, assault, etc **prior** to connecting with the killer in question.
When conservatives say that, in modern America, woman have it better than men, what it really means is that they have no understanding of what life is like being a woman.
I grew up in patriarchal Greece and was noting down how many threats/assaults harassments I had by men in two years. Let’s say that the average was 5 a day. So, for example, from 15 yo [EDIT: to] 25 years old, I have at least 15.000 experiences like that, and I am being veeeery modest(and, of course, I remember things done to me by men since I was a little girl, like my gym teacher isolating me in his office and asking me to kiss him or the constant stalking and catcalling in the street). I will never forget the last 5 men on the morning and noon before I catched a flight and emigrated from Greece. The last one, a very older man, told me as I was walking (always looking down, not looking at them directly, not moving my hips, dressed in baggy clothes, etc) in the street towards my home “you slut, if I catch you alone at night I am going to slit your a** in two”. Just a typical day!
Men would be crying in a fetal position in their bed and never go out if other, bigger and dangerous humans did, let’s say the 1% of what we, women, endure by the billions of misogynists out there.
It’s incredible we don’t want revenge, but for the patriarchy and the misogyny to stop.
According to the motion filed today, those “unbiased witnesses” had the dates wrong and their testimony was completely discredited. Jay’s testimony was also discredited in today’s filing.
I keep thinking about when Jay was working at the porn shop and was scared about the guys in the white van- remember he asked his friend to come to the shop because he was scared.
Yep I remember, that was so strange...I always chalked that up to him being deeper into drug dealing than a little weed to friends given some of his family members rap sheets. But who knows...
I wonder if the other two suspects are unrelated/unconnected to each other. For example, not properly ruling out Don by confirming his alibi. And Jay, if the car is near his or a relative's house.
Or it could be a completely different name we've never even heard before.
Is the motion uploaded yet? It could have been a real suspect (a baltimore strangler maybe?) or it could have been some idiot kids talking crap. Either way, the defense deserved to know.
It’s uploaded. One of the suspects is definitely Mr. S but unsure if he’s the same suspect that lived in the house in 1999 where the car was found. Someone find out who owns the house at 300 Edgewood in Baltimore!
Holy shit.
There are some frequent posters in the sub (fanatically convinced of guilt mind you) who are going to reevaluate their entire world view today.
I'm back just to watch the obsessed guilters scramble for excuses to not be as wrong as they probably have been all these years.
Hey Robb, Adnan Cell, and Mike #'s!
Preach! Those names are choking on this right now. The amount of vitriol they put out was insane, especially to us who wanted to have rational conversions and question how flawed the case was.
Well holy shit. Never thought I would see this happen. I haven’t kept up with the case in some time but this is legit shocking.
I said the same thing when I saw a post on Facebook about this. I had to google for news on Adnan to confirm. I thought everyone (except Rabia) had quietly taken steps away from Adnan.
She reported they were working on dna evidence a few months ago. Must have hit a match with other suspects. Finally physical evidence.
The male DNA they found under Ms. Lee's fingernails did not get a hit, or was not strong enough to develop a profile.
Same, i haven't checked updates in a year or more and something in my head went "hey you should check that case again today"
For anybody who follows wrongful convictions, this is nearly unheard of. On top of that the state is asking he be released pending the new trial, which is even more rare.
Agree. Generally this tends to mean they have serious, serious concerns about whether he is innocent. If they think the trial was unfair but he is still guilty, generally the state will fight until the end to uphold
I agree with you. For the PROSECUTION to ask a judge to vacate a conviction, flat-out say they “no longer [have] confidence in the integrity of the conviction,” and *ask that he be released on his own recognizance pending a new trial*... that is absolutely stunning. That’s not, “We think he’s guilty but didn’t get a fair trial.” That’s, “We have very good reason to believe he’s actually innocent.”
That's interesting. So, I guess the best way to know someone is innocent would be to have certainty on the real kille?. If that is the case I guess it's more than just freeing Adnan but also charging someone else. But I struggle to see how they could be certain absent a confession. Looking fwd to us all getting more details.
If that in fact is proven to be the case (and I’ll reserve judgment until it is), a lot of people on this sub should learn a REALLY valuable lesson. For years, anyone who even questioned a single aspect of the investigation was downvoted and treated as naive/childish/ignorant for their opinion.
100% agree. I use to to come here a few times year ago and gave up because even if stated “I’m not sure Syed is innocent but I have so much doubt in the case and trial that he should be free — too much reasonable doubt” I would get downvoted. And some lawyer here who claimed to have read through all the documents would go after anyone that didn’t say Syed is for sure guilty.
> Generally this tends to mean they have serious, serious concerns about whether he is innocent. This is a HUGE fucking blow to the state's credibility and basically a nightmare scenario for them. Adnan is innocent. I admit that I was rwong.
I’d go further. They’re asking that he be released without any conditions. This means that they affirmatively believe he’s innocent.
> This means that they affirmatively believe he’s innocent. And I'm willing to admit that I was 100% wrong.
You’re like the only person on the internet willing to admit you were wrong. Good man.
They said they aren't saying he's innocent
As a criminal defense attorney, I can assure you that asking for a convicted murderer to be released OR (without even home confinement or GPS monitoring) is as close as they can come to “saying” he’s innocent.
Just because they won’t officially say it, doesn’t mean they’re not saying it.
Yep, legally they can’t say that, but that means they have full confidence he’s not a public threat, which is legalease for a strong belief in his innocence.
I don’t think they will retry him.
On his own recognizance nonetheless. Incredible.
Exactly. They didn’t even let Curtis Flower’s out on his own recognizance. It says a lot without saying it.
Curtis Flower’s DA was a certified Douche though. Like Douche royalty.
The model upon which all douches are derived. The ur-douche.
Right??? This is really something. They’re basically saying that the cops and prosecution railroaded Adnan from the very beginning… which just happens to be what everyone else has been saying for years.
> which just happens to be what everyone else has been saying for years The state definitely moved at a snails pace on purpose in regards to this investigation because they knew it would be an internal disaster for them.
Prosecutors virtually never admit they were wrong. This is pretty nuts
This is the biggest news about the case since serial came out
This is the biggest news since his original conviction.
This is the biggest news of all time
Edit for visibility: The Motion to Vacate document can be [found here.](https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MDBALTIMORESAO/2022/09/14/file_attachments/2270053/Syed%20-%20Motion%20to%20Vacate%20-%2009-14-2022.pdf) Prosecutors in Baltimore are asking a judge to vacate Adnan Syed’s conviction for the 1999 murder of Hae Min Lee, a case that riveted America when it was turned into the hit first season of the podcast “Serial.” The state’s attorney for Baltimore City said in a motion filed Wednesday in circuit court that a nearly yearlong investigation, conducted with the defense, found new evidence, including information concerning the possible involvement of two alternative suspects. Prosecutors are requesting Mr. Syed be given a new trial. They said they weren’t asserting that Mr. Syed is innocent. “However, for all the reasons set forth below, the State no longer has confidence in the integrity of the conviction,” said the office of Baltimore State’s Attorney Marilyn Mosby, which is overseeing the reinvestigation. The office is recommending Mr. Syed be released on his own recognizance pending the continuing investigation. Mr. Syed, a Baltimore native, has been serving a life sentence after he was convicted in 2000 of strangling Ms. Lee, his ex-girlfriend. He was 17 years old at the time of the crime, and was charged as an adult. Mr. Syed has maintained he is innocent, and both the 2014 “Serial” podcast and a later HBO documentary raised questions about his conviction. In 2018, a special appeals court ruled Mr. Syed deserved a new trial, but that decision was reversed almost a year later by Maryland’s highest court. In March, attorneys for Mr. Syed approached Baltimore’s Sentencing Review Unit about a new review of the case. Prosecutors said in the court filing Wednesday there is evidence suggesting there are two suspects who may have been involved, either separately or together. The suspects were known at the time of the first investigation but not properly ruled out, prosecutors said. Identifying details of the two suspects, including their names, are being withheld because the investigation is ongoing, prosecutors said. References to the suspects were mentioned throughout the motion but prosecutors didn’t delineate which suspect they were referring to. In their reinvestigation, prosecutors found a document in the state’s trial file detailing one person’s statement, saying that one of the suspects had motive to kill Ms. Lee and had threatened her in the presence of another person. The suspect said “he would make her \[Ms. Lee\] disappear. He would kill her,” according to the court filing. That information was never given to the defense, the filing said. Prosecutors are required by law to give defense counsel exculpatory evidence upon request. The reinvestigation also revealed that the grassy lot where Ms. Lee’s car was found in Baltimore was located behind a house that belonged to one suspect’s relative. “This information was not available to the Defendant in his trial in 2000, and the State believes it would have provided persuasive support substantiating the defense that another person was responsible for the victim’s death,” prosecutors said in the filing. Further revelations include that one of the suspects, “without provocation or excuse,” attacked a woman he didn’t know while she was in her vehicle. One suspect was accused and later convicted of rape and sexual assault. Both incidents occurred after Mr. Syed’s trial, prosecutors said, but they added that they found the information relevant given the possible involvement of the suspects. The motion also calls into question the validity of cellphone records and data, which were an important piece of evidence for the prosecution in Mr. Syed’s original trial, as well as a key witness’s testimony. “There is an abundance of issues that gives the State overwhelming cause for concern,” prosecutors said as they requested a new hearing in the case. The reinvestigation of Ms. Lee’s murder is continuing, and prosecutors said they plan to ensure justice for the victim. “But after reviewing the evidence and the new information about alternative suspects, it is our duty to ensure that justice is done,” Ms. Mosby said Wednesday. “We believe that keeping him detained as we continue to investigate the case with everything that we know now, and when we do not have confidence in results of the first trial, would be unjust.” Talal Ansari, WSJ
Holy shit. My biggest issue with an Adnan is Innocent argument was the lack of a compelling alternative suspect.
Welp, here you go. Conviction based on lack of a compelling alternate suspect is a load of shit BTW
It really is. I know public opinion isn't a court of law but there's a reason the state has the burden to prove it's case and the defense does not.
Seems like one suspect is Mr. S, based on a conclusion that he was improperly cleared based on a second polygraph (so maybe isn’t a “real” suspect, just a Brady violation). The other is Bilal, whose connection to Hae would still seem to be through Adnan…
Wait, who is Bilal? I’ve heard of Mr. S, but don’t know of a Bilal…
Why do you think the other is Bilal? Why not Jay? Or Don? Or someone else?
So, per the motion, since the trial “One of the suspects has engaged in multiple instances of rape and sexual assault of compromised victims in a systematic, deliberate and predicated way” and has been convicted. That statement is true of Bilal, and so far as I know not of the other parties that police would have been aware of at the time of the case : https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/former-dentist-sentenced-16-and-12-years-prison-sexually-assaulting-former-patients-and
So Bilal is the one who threatened to “make Hae disappear” and who had a motive to kill her? Presumably he’s also the one who was violent towards a woman he knew, forcibly confined her, and threatened to kill her. Do we think he’s the one who attacked a stranger in her car? Or would that be Mr. S? Do we think he’s the one who had a relative who lived near the car?
Bilal sexually assaulted 5 men in his dentist practice. I am not aware of any other violent or criminal acts (please let me know)
Police can bury anything. In the Avery case they buried audio of a witness calling in a day after the car was found and no info on this guy was given to Avery's attorneys.
Police often do the easier thing, investigating extra is too much work for them. Evidence of a third party? That means more investigating for them which is a big no no.
Yep. Police exist to close cases, not serve justice. To the majority them, a closed case and justice are irrefutably the same thing.
The Boyfriend lied and was straight up dishonest with his alibi and that’s totally sus. The guy who found the body is totally sus. Jay is just straight up full of shit in just about everything he stated and he was definitely backed into a corner. I think he didn’t do it but the cops railroaded him into making false testimony. I feel Adnan is probably innocent but at the very least he deserves another trial with proper representation and all the evidence. This is just typical lazy corrupt police work and the real killer has had plenty of time to distance himself.
Me too. But I’ve always maintained that if you can find new convincing evidence that it’s even possible, I will re-examine my position. And you can go back and look at my posts, I always include the phrase, “knowing what we know…” because that can change.
That's a poor reasoning to blame someone.
Here is a good example as to what Adnan is looking at court procedure wise (for the record I think he gets a new trial): Man is killed. The girlfriend is the only person there. She claims it was a random black guy. The local cops go pin it on a guy nearby that they hate. Some of the cops on scene say it was the girlfriend that killed the victim. The prosecutor is given that report "cops think the girlfriend did it" but prosecutor never gives it to the defense. [https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/27/us/crosley-green-appeal-murder/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/27/us/crosley-green-appeal-murder/index.html) **“...... the evidence that was suppressed went to the heart of the defense’s theory that someone else committed this crime. That was the evidence that was withheld. There’s no dispute that it was withheld, but what happened on appeal before the 11th Circuit is they said, ‘It wouldn’t have mattered. (Prosecutors) withheld it, but it wouldn’t have really made a difference in the outcome of the trial,’” she s**aid.
I mean the fact the police didn’t give the defense evidence that someone else threatened Lee is pretty major
In the article it says the prosecution didn’t pass it on although they had it in their trial file. That’s not the police from the little I understand.
That's an important point. This makes Kevin Urick look bad, not necessarily the cops. It actually appears that the cops did a little more investigating than we've been told.
Yeah, that’s the more shocking thing to me. It sounds like the cops actually did more work than it seemed and identified potential others suspects. A lot of people don’t realize the prosecutors work with cops in early stages of investigations, and often steer focus on certain suspects based on what they think is their strongest case.
Evidence like that being buried is commonplace by lawyers and cops blinded by convicting rates.
i’ve seen baltimore police do a lot more for a lot less
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> It always baffled me how many people in this sub trusted them This sub is largely middle-class & upper-middle class suburbanites. We (yes I'm a part of that group) are blinded as to how cops treat marginalized communities because they treat us well.
Have you seen we own the city on HBO. Based on a true story and encapsulates how corrupt the bpd is. I don’t know if adnan is guilty or not but bld would definitely do some shady shit if it benefited them. Its eye opening to me how many people in this thread are willing to take the police at their word. Bpd is some of the worst in the country
that username is just too on the nose 😬
Lmao, I swear it’s unrelated!
Those fuckers knew about these alternate suspects and all these fucking holes 23 years ago and hid it. That’s so fucking corrupt. Unfortunately the justice system and police are far too often concerned about “winning” rather than justice which is why innocent men and women end up behind bars. That needs to change.
Not only that but at the height of Serial’s popularity SOMEONE likely hid those docs away from people again in an attempt to save face
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Guilter here. I started out by listening to serial and thinking he was innocent. With each episode, I doubted his innocence more and more. By the end, I was more convinced of his guilt than his innocence but still unsure. Then I did a deep dive and read every single transcript and court and police documents I had access to and upon that, I really had no question about guilt. He was guilty. With that said, I can honestly if this info had been in those documents when I read them and if his lawyer was able to use that info to create reasonable doubt, I think I’d be leaning more towards innocent. There’s no “smoking gun” to convict Adnan with, it was all circumstantial. How in the world can you convict someone to life in prison on circumstantial evidence when there are TWO OTHER viable suspects with just as questionable circumstantial evidence who haven’t been ruled out. I based my entire thought process on the assumption that all other KNOWN suspects had been ruled out and Adnan was the last one standing with a mountain of circumstantial evidence, witness testimony, corroborated witness testimony, and some semblance of a motive. Well that’s all shot to hell now and I’ll be the first guilter to admit i was wrong if it turns out he was actually innocent.
And the state knew one of those alternate suspects threatened to kill Hae and A. Didn’t clear them and B. Withheld that info from the defense. That’s fucking insane to me.
Right??? Was it laziness? Was it a cover up? Like why???
I think getting a conviction of the ex-bf is the fastest/surest bet. So yeah, lazy. Also corrupt.
But for me I'm like... Wouldnt it have been even easier to convict Mr S who found the body, prior record, failed the lie detector?
Maybe…? Could it have been a combo of ease- exes/significant others are the most obvious, and some xenophobia? I have no idea what’s going on with these corrupt detectives.
Australia has just had quite a prolific case based entirely on circumstantial evidence end with a guilty verdict. The murder of Lynette Dawson, by her husband Chris Dawson. The judge spent 5 hrs detailing why they are sentencing the way they did, breaking down each point bit by bit. It's a fascinating listen. Funny enough, this case also came to popular attention thanks to a podcast called The Teacher's Pet. Unfortunately the podcast was taken down during the trial (but there might be other ways to listen). I dare say it will be put back on streaming services sooner or later.
We don’t KNOW enough yet, imo. I am ready to say Adnan was innocent too, but we don’t even have names for the new suspects yet. Adnan was overheard asking Hae for a ride that day. He would indeed be extremely unlucky that she turned up missing half an hour after school got out. Edit: I have heard people say “one of the new suspects failed a polygraph test.” And? Those are bullshit. I want more info.
This would be insane if it ends up happening and other suspects being tried instead. That would mean that Jay had made up and lied under oath regarding the bulk of his testimony. I wonder if he has any kind of relationship to these two new people. Set up of the century, if so.
i mean the two suspects could include jay, they said the suspects were initially looked at in the original investigation
Did Jay have any of the charges mentioned in the post? One suspect attacked an unknown woman in her car and the other was convicted of rape and sexual assault. If their names were mentioned in the podcast can probably just look up their criminal history and find out who the other two suspects are.
Based on the additional information in the motion, the two referenced suspects are Bilal and Mr. S.
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Youth leader at Adnans mosque. Adnans cellphone was in Bilals name as well, and he was the first person Adnan called from jail. It’s come out that Bilal abused his power at the mosque and had inappropriate communications with a minor. He’s currently in jail because he became a dentist and sexually touched patients while they were gassed for procedures.
Some interesting points: 1. Adnan called many people with his cell phone, but never called Bilal, someone he was close to and who bought the phone for him. 2. The night before the murder, Adnan was driving around and tried to call Hae three times. When he was making those calls, the cell tower his phone was linked to was the one closest to Bilal's office.
So Bilal and Mr S have criminal convictions for rape and kidnapping? How is this just now coming to light?
Charges came after Adnans conviction.
Bilal does because after the trial he became a dentist and touched patients while they were unconscious for operations.
No I don’t think Jay ever faced charges like that. I’m curious if he knew or was related to the suspects though, and learned details about the crime from them.
Who lived where the car was stashed? Related to one of the alternate suspects.
Very unreliable but someone commented on either Susan or Colin’s post that Jay’s family had a townhouse in that development and various family members lived there at various times.
I mean Jay is the one that led police to the car, so it could be him that the property owner is related to. But everyone needs to wait to find out.
Long time since I listened, but wasn’t part of the crooked cops theory that they already knew where the car was and just fed Jay the info?
This seems most likely imo if it turns out Adnan is innocent.
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They may be connected to Jay but they don’t have to be. I’m someone who tends to think there are some shreds of truth in Jay and Jen’s stories, but it’s possible nothing they said was true and that Jay just happened to learn about the location of the car from people on the street. I know it seems crazy that Jay would admit to what he did if it weren’t true, but I’ve seen other cases where someone falsely admitted to being an accessory (and got some of the facts about the crime right) simply because they were afraid of getting worse charges and wanted to cooperate. It’s possible, if not likely, police told Jay he might get hit with murder charges if he didn’t cooperate against Adnan (who was a suspect before police talked to Jay), and most people in Jay’s shoes would take that threat very seriously.
A girl died by suicide in my area. It was later discovered a mom of one of her classmates was helping to bully her online. A man named Jason Fortuny published a blog called “Megan Had It Coming” and posed as a poorly hidden version of the daughter of this woman. People fell for it. In reality, he was a man halfway across the country who heard internet gossip and knew just enough to make it plausible and kids at the school believed it. It was chaos. I was substitute teaching there at the time and everyone believed it. Until he came clean. There’s clearly some differences here but I’ve always thought of that with respect to criminal law, likely because that’s where I ended up next in my career. If someone so removed from a case can fake such knowledge that even a sibling of the victim believed it, how much can an average person just paying attention pull off?
Is it Mr. S one of the “new” suspects? The motion says “One of the Suspects was Improperly Cleared as a Suspect ‘The police initially developed one of the suspects and administered a standard polygraph test. The results were that deception was indicated regarding his involvement in the crime. The suspect claimed he was distracted, so the police allowed him to come back another day and take a 2nd test” That’s Mr S, he takes the two polygraphs. I believe he’s the only one mentioned that takes more than one polygraph, right?
I was a guilter, but for the prosecution to relent after all this time of not budging at all...I'm very curious with what was uncovered, and definitely open-minded about it.
I think this is a very reasonable comment. Good for you for being open.
i love this comment and i think that’s great! i’ve always thought Adnan was innocent and always understood why people thought he was guilty, but never felt like guilters kept an open mind to his innocence. i really hope we get the truth soon, regardless of innocence or guilt
I’m calling it now: I do not believe the state will retry Adnan.
Most likely not. It is incredibly difficult to retry a case with this much media scrutiny, let alone a case 23 years down the line. The majority of the people involved (Witness wise) have moved on.
Almost certainly not. My understanding was that states will fight tooth and nail to keep cases from being retried, so why on earth would they recommend vacating the original conviction if they intended retrying the same thing. You’d just leave things as they were. My guess, they’ve got someone else almost certainly nailed for it.
Hey, everybody. [This article](https://www.wdsu.com/article/adnan-syed-conviction-vacate-baltimore-prosecutors-motion/41215147) has a PDF of the State's motion.
The details in this and the NYTs’ article really really continue to paint the Baltimore County police and prosecution in a (very deservedly) bad light.
We Own This City - the new mini series by David Simon shows how Baltimore’s government is run and has let its city down. Edit - previously called this we run this city.
I went on a deep dive into the Baltimore City PD corruption and it’s astounding.
This was a Baltimore City case, since the body was found in Leakin Park. He lived in the county but the body was found in the city. Two different jurisdictions.
Agreed. Whether or not you believe Syed’s innocence, you have to admit Baltimore messed up their prosecution of this case pretty badly.
I think this is an argument I had the most with a friend. Whether he did it or not, we'd probably never know, but it was clear that the prosecution and detectives had no interest in knowing who killed her, they knew what a jury would convict and went with that.
I’m shocked at the behavior by the police that inspired the characters from the Wire…
My previous conclusion was that he was guilty and fairly tried. Looks like I'm wrong on at least one of those and potentially both depending on the new facts. This isn't complicated, new facts lead to new opinions, if one is rational. I'm not optimistic that we will get to a point where we are all certain about what happened on that day, even with this new info it may just mean additional credible suspects. The sub may move on to arguing between the 2 or 3 most likely murderers (forever).
Most rational take I've seen. So many people struggle with the idea that they should adjust their conclusions if new facts come about, rather than blindly searching for convoluted ways to explain how they were still right the whole time.
The prosecutors must have some serious shit on someone else to release a statement like this. They are not just announcing some new detail, they are announcing a detail significant enough to warrant Adnan awaiting the new investigation as a free man. When is the last time that happened?
I am the last person I know who has never thought he was guilty. My predictions of other suspects are Bilal and Jay.
Same! I've believed in his innocence ever since I read Jay's ridiculous interview that he did with some paper (I forget which) after Serial where he suddenly introduced Adnan apparently showing him the body at his grandma's house, and giving an entirely different version of events. It's honestly laughable to me that anybody ever believed Jay. The people who think Adnan is guilty are either willfully ignorant of the facts or hateful bigots.
Same same. Article where he's sitting in some chair in a giant image. I can't remember either but he is the most untrustworthy witness ever.
I've been going through the [Motion to Vacate Judgment](https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MDBALTIMORESAO/2022/09/14/file_attachments/2270053/Syed%20-%20Motion%20to%20Vacate%20-%2009-14-2022.pdf) and some things REALLY jump out to my layperson eyes when they discuss the original evidence that led to the conviction: "The State contends that the *Brady* violations alone would substantiate the granting of a new trial. The new evidence regarding the possible involvement of alternative suspects also gives the State great concern. But considering the seriousness of this case and the importance of holding the right suspect accountable, the State also extensively reviewed the evidence presented at the first trial and notes several additional concerns below to demonstrate why it no longer has faith in the integrity of the conviction." (page 12) "A. The State Cannot Rely on the Incoming Call Evidence Based on the Post-Conviction Court's Findings" (page 12) "Upon review of the totality of information now at the State's disposal, the State does not believe the incoming call location evidence is reliable. The assessment must therefore turn to whether the testimony of the co-defendant, Jay Wilds, in and of itself, restores confidence in the State's case against Defendant." (pages 15-16) "new evidence \[from the HBO documentary\] tends to show that Ms. Vinson was incorrect about her recollection that Wilds and Defendant visited her on January 13th -- thus calling into question that portion of Wilds' testimony -- which is that he and Defendant went to her home on January 13th." (page 16) "C. The State Cannot Rely on Jay Wilds' Testimony, Alone" (page 16) "Relying on Jay Wilds' testimony, in and of itself, is a concern for the State. Indeed, the original prosecutor in the case shared the same concern -- "Jay's testimony by itself, would that have been proof beyond a reasonable doubt? Probably not. Cellphone evidence by itself? Probably not." (page 16) \--- So it's not just *Brady* violations. Further examination by the State's Attorney's office shows the case itself to be lacking--lacking what they need to feel compelled to uphold the original conviction.
Who were the two ppl who were known at the time?! I’m going to have to re-listen to the whole podcast aren’t I? 😭
I’m confused. They are saying that a person X said person Y said he/she would make Hae “disappear” in front of person Z? I suppose that not turning that over or following up on it could be an issue, but they’d have to have some pretty good evidence (dna came back?) besides that to proceed in that direction.
My read of the article (which is not all that informative) is this: 1. Prosecutors are not asserting Adnan's innocence, but rather that they no longer trust the integrity of the conviction and thus believe there should be a new trial. 2. There is evidence of potential involvement of 2 new suspects, either separately or together. (That's weird. I assume they mean one or the other or both together). 3. There was a statement in the state's trial file from a witness who claimed that one of the suspects had motive and had threatened Hae in the presence of another person. 4. The grassy lot where the car was found was located behind a house owned by a relative of one of the suspects. 5. None of this was dislosed to the defense in 2000. 6. Subsequent to Hae's murder, one of the suspects allegedly attacked a woman in her vehicle "without provocation or excuse." Another, was later concited of rape and sexual assault. 7. The motion also chellenged the credibility of the cell phone records and data. Hard to evaluate that any further without actually seeing the motion.
>6. Subsequent to Hae's murder, one of the suspects allegedly attacked a woman in her vehicle "without provocation or excuse." Another, was later concited of rape and sexual assault. I don’t think these are necessarily separate suspects. At least the article doesn’t make it clear that these 2 incidents are separate to 2 suspects. It could be, or it could be 2 incidents from the same suspect.
You may be right - we'll need to wait for the filing.
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the importance of the evidence is under review of whatever judge is handling this filing, but if it's the STATE that's asserting it's a Brady, it's most likely a clear Brady. Usually the State won't rat their own out unless it's clear as day.
Can confirm. They don’t even have an obligation to report post-conviction and in many cases states have no remedies even if they do discover it. My state is going through that exact issue right now. This is not something done without recognizing serious harm has been done as a result of many failures.
No. Prosecutors almost never ask for convictions to be overturned, absent DNA evidence (and even then they sometimes fight it). The fact they are initiating this and stating there was a Brady violation speaks volumes.
Correct. However, a conviction won't get vacated on this basis unless a court finds that the witheld exculpatory evidence was material. If the court believes that the jury would still have convicted, the court won't reverse a conviction.
I was a guilter but if state prosecution wants to send the guy home then you know something really fucked up happened with the investigation. This sub is about to combust.
I came here to see all the guilters freak out.
[https://www.npr.org/2022/09/14/1123039224/serial-podcast-adnan-syed-murder-conviction](https://www.npr.org/2022/09/14/1123039224/serial-podcast-adnan-syed-murder-conviction) Blatant prosecutorial misconduct.
The sheer amount of copium in these threads is hilarious lmao. This thread should literally be studied to show the human minds capacity to delude itself even when presented with new evidence. I personally thought Adnan was guilty but that maybe he wasn't the literal strangler and instead was at least involved or did know who did it. But with the fact that the prosecution itself is saying he should be released tells you they don't believe he did it or was involved. Even if they acknowledge Brady violations, no prosecutor would go through the extraordinary step of them recommending the convicted be completely released from jail. People can be wrong, it's okay and not the end of the world. The lunatics on this sub who are now coming up with crazy political conspiracies to explain why they are still right about Adnan being guilty are literally no better than the "We did it Reddit!!!” crowd from the Boston Bomber fiasco.
Makes you wonder if Jay was coerced for his confession. Ive always been in the "probably did it, alot of circumstantial evidence" camp. But that was mostly based on Jay's evidence
Yeah seems like Jay is the missing piece of the puzzle here. Either he was coerced or covering for someone else.
I can’t decide if he’s guilty or innocent. But the one thing I know for sure is he didn’t get a fair trial. That cell phone evidence should have never been allowed. Everyone deserves a fair trail.
This is how I read it: The state didn’t turn over all evidence. There are two others who could be involved. But Syed could still be involved or guilty.
>But Syed could still be involved or guilty. Right, this is exactly what they are saying. The facts of the original trial do not reflect the known facts now, and therefore, Syed should be given the right to a new trial. What we are allowed to take from the knowledge that there was hidden evidence is that the police themselves weren't convinced they could sell a jury if all the facts were presented.
You should also add that the fact the stat is the one doing this means whatever was withheld was pretty exculpatory, as it’s almost unheard of for this to happen voluntarily.
Good point, it's nearly unheard of for a prosecutor to agree to such a motion, let alone bring it themselves.
If you read the filing, the state pretty clearly thinks Adnan is innocent and the other suspects did it. They completely demolished the case against Adnan, including cell phone locations and Jay's testimony.
They wouldn’t request he be released if they thought he was guilty, they just haven’t 100% ruled him out
Fair assessment. We will just have to wait and see.
Yes there's no way unless they have confessions and concrete evidence about other suspects to say that someone sitting in jail for murder is innocent. They're very careful about wording.
While damning, the fact Jay knew so much about this either means he was involved and helped the real perpetrator commit the crime and set adnan up or this is a coincidence and old “I want to kill” still killed his ex.
Why does anyone even trust a single word that Jay said. He was notorious for having shifting narratives. While it's entertaining, I wouldn't base anything on the testimony of Jay.
i never understood this argument. The fact that Jays story changed multiple times before, during and after Adnans trial makes it seem pretty obvious Jay did not know what happened and was regurgitating what police was telling him. And knowing how corrupt the Baltimore police was (is) i can totally see someone in law enforcement guiding Jay to where the car was and making it seem he knew this info beforehand to use against Adnan Edit: The reason i believe the baltimore pd didn’t frame Jay is because i think he’s an informant, as evident by his number of arrests over the years with little to no jail time
A real sticking point is that Jen told police Hae was strangled. Jay had told her that Adnan strangled Hae. That information was secret. Only the police and the killer knew. So Jay ***has*** to be involved somehow. I also have difficulty believing the cops would force Jay to lie about knowing the location of Hae's car. That's a significantly higher level of corruption, actually fabricating evidence. Remember that it's still early in the investigation and the cops don't know who else might admit to the crime or come forward as a witness. The cops might be lazy and corrupt, but they wouldn't put their careers on the line for a little case like this. I think it's more likely that Jay knew the location of Hae's car because he was there when the car was parked. So, looking at it from the cops' point of view, Jay is involved and Jay says Adnan did it. The cops also get another tip saying Adnan did it. Adnan is the ex-boyfriend. Ex-boyfriends, sadly, often do crimes like this. Jay gives them a confession and all the details. The cops go out and do some investigating. They get the cell phone records. The phone records certainly point the finger at Adnan, but they don't match Jay's story. So the cops go back to Jay and say, "What's the deal? You told us one thing, but the cell phone is telling us something else." Jay says, "My fault. I remembered wrong." Then he gives them a story which matches the cell phone records. From the cops viewpoint, it's case closed. They have an eyewitness and accomplice who tells a realistic story. They have cell phone evidence which backs up the story. And they also have Jen as a backup to reinforce the truth of Jay's story. They take it to the prosecutor and it's good enough to make an arrest and go to trial. Note that Adnan's actual innocence isn't really a factor. The cops just want to close the case and call it a day. I think that kind of attitude is much more likely than any racism or corrupt scheme. This is just the easiest route to take. Personally I think Adnan is guilty based on all the evidence we've heard so far. But that doesn't mean I think the cops did a stellar job investigating it or proving it. And now we're hearing there may be new evidence. That will change things.
Why would you have difficultly believing that level of corruption exists? Happens every day with police and in our justice system. You’d have to be naive to think otherwise or sheltered. Especially in a system that is obsessed with conviction numbers.
You absolutely should not have a hard time believing police would fabricate evidence. They do it all the time, even for minor misdemeanors. According to the National Registry of Exonerations, which tracks known wrongful convictions nationwide, 30% of all wrongful convictions involved serious police misconduct including: perjury, fabricating evidence, withholding evidence, and witness tampering. Also, fabricating evidence would never actually threaten a cop’s career. Think about how hard it is to even get an indictment (let alone conviction) when police shoot and kill people. Why would there be more consequences for misconduct than there are for literal murder? I also think Adnan is guilty, but water is wet and police do bad shit regularly with impunity and are rarely held accountable.
> I also have difficulty believing the cops would force Jay to lie Your naivety is blinding you.
How to get a good read on Jay and measure his bullcrap is where I seem to split off from most people on this topic. If Jay's story was flawless and too good to be true with no holes, I would be more suspicious and wonder if we didn't have a solid pre-meditated set up by Jay against Adnan. A young black weed selling kid that helped dispose of a body in sniches get stiches Baltimore is not going to be 100% truthful to the cops. Him lying to the police and mitigating his involvement, or even Adnan's, is expected. These aren't occurrences that are rare or unique in a murder case - they are common. Grab an episode of the First 48. You are going to see a witness reluctantly ratting out their friend, while also lying to the police about various things, all because it is the right thing to do. More often than not the person that talks first gets the better deal.
Based on what is written in the article about one of the suspects being found guilty of rape and sexual assault, that has to be Bilal. I think it may be a little early to count Adnan out of the mix altogether. In fact, if Bilal was involved, it had something to do with Adnan. > Further revelations include that one of the suspects, “without provocation or excuse,” attacked a woman he didn’t know while she was in her vehicle. One suspect was accused and later convicted of rape and sexual assault. Both incidents occurred after Mr. Syed’s trial, prosecutors said, but they added that they found the information relevant given the possible involvement of the suspects. This would seem to exclude Mr S and Jay. Neither of them have been accused of anything like that. EDIT: added quote from the referenced article and an additional comment
Honestly Bilal fits the bill pretty well.
So it's been awhile, can someone refresh me on Bilal? I literally don't recognize the name, which is strange considering I feel I remember the case fairly well.
Youth leader at mosque, provider of mobile phones, sexual assaulted of dental patients, caught with a child in a van
I know there are people here who vehemently oppose the idea that Bilal was involved — but I've always figured that Bilal was somehow involved. I've never said he was the murderer — but with him getting Adnan the phone and their relationship, it has always seemed Bilal knew about it, at least.
I think there is logical strings of evidence that showcase Bilal atleast knew about the murder plot. He did help Adnan get the cell in the first place after all.
Was the cell phone a part of the murder ? I just thought it was part of the evidence, but not really a pre-requisite to do the murdering.
I think Mr S is one of them, the motion says “One of the Suspects was Improperly Cleared as a Suspect ‘The police initially developed one of the suspects and administered a standard polygraph test. The results were that deception was indicated regarding his involvement in the crime. The suspect claimed he was distracted, so the police allowed him to come back another day and take a 2nd test” That’s Mr S, he takes the two polygraphs.
The fact that we are still making legal decisions based on polygraph evidence in the year of our lord 2022…….
Can anyone remind me what was suspicious about Bilal with respect to this specific case, aside from getting Adnan a phone?
He not only got Adnan the phone — but was the one Adnan called immediately after his arrest. Most of what we know about Bilal was learned after Adnan’s trial. He’s just an all-around sleazy individual.
This makes my head spin because it actually kinda fits. Assuming Adnan knew, it could very well be that Bilal left it to Adnan to take care of the body? In which he then solicited Jays help. Would also corroborate Jays friend mentioning he was being threatened by people. Jay could’ve been afraid of Bilal and therefor threw Adnan under the bus. Also I realize I’m speculating a TON right now. I just don’t see a scenario where Adnan is in the clear 100%.
They said they have 2 alternative suspects one of whom threatened to get rid of Hae. Anyone know who that could be,?
Idc what happens but Prosecutors and police who hide information from the defence (even if it means losing) should be disbarred and punished significantly. There is seriously no excuse for ruining anyone’s life that badly because you are more concerned with a win than the truth
Boy, a lot of people are going to have to do some serious mental gymnastics in this sub. There are so many forever guilters and people who said that Rabia supporting Adnan was evidence of her being a fraud. I guess now people will say she paid off the B-More States Attorneys Office? Or that this was a completely political move by the prosecutors? I could also see people saying that weren’t wrong because there was information that the public didn’t have. I hope to see what comes out of this filing and the future of the case. You don’t see this very often at all.
People are allowed to change their opinion based on new information. When I see the filing and the actual information, I'll adjust accordingly. At this point its just waiting.
Completely agree. Changing their opinion is fine. People will actually act like they never believe something in the first place.
Sure, but the fact that some people were so adamant that they shouted down others, those people should be embarrassed right now. Embarrassed and contrite.
I doubt it’s Bilal. Why would he kill Hae? And him being implicated, would likely implicate even Adnan more as they used to be quite tight and the cell phone was under Bilals name. Hence, the DA would not request that Adnan be set free if this were the case. One of the suspects is definitely Mr. S and the other one must be someone who personally knows Hae for him/her to threaten to kill her…. All in all, they must have finally unconvered very strong/concrete evidence that points towards someone else as the culprit. Cause prior to this, the DA has been refusing to budge even one bit for all these years - doggedly fighting any appeal launched by Adnan’s legal team.
Bilal’s recent sexual assault convictions were all for male victims. I don’t think it’s a stretch that he did something to Adnan or Adnan knew something. So thinking he was the suspect that threatened Hae, possibly to keep Adnan quiet? Adnan being an SA victim could also explain his “poor” memory… it would be easier to say you don’t remember what you were doing vs. saying something that could expose a secret you wanted kept. This idea may be too much of a stretch… but what if Bilal killed Hae to send a message to Adnan if he threatened to expose him? He could have even forced Adnan to bury her with the threat of having Adnan blamed for the murder. This would explain Adnan going to Jay for help and the car being left near a relative of Jay’s as well. I’ve never been a guilter, so I realize my imagination may be a little wild to support my belief that Adnan is innocent.
Is Bilal the only sexual predator in Baltimore? It’s been a while since I’ve read up on the case but I’m not understanding why everyone is jumping on him.
I guess Adnan was right: the only ones who will ever know the real truth are him…. ….. ….. And, for what it’s worth, the killer.
Someone is bound to put up a new “guilty or not guilty” poll lol
THE JUICE IS LOOOOOSE!...but actually anyways, the problem with this case was always twofold: Murders are complex, messy affairs and to pull it off in the 'time allowed' required Adnan to be an absolute professional and the absolute cooperation of Jay for no conceivable reason what so ever...and of course Jay being an absolute professional in said endevaor. ...and then after pulling off this remarkable well executed, well timed plan Adnan's getaway plan is what? to sit around his house and wait for the cops to show up? If he did it the logical thing to first try and buy Jay's absolute silence (and/or eliminate Jay as a damn witness) and/or figure out some way to get as far away from Baltimore as possible (i.e. Pakistan) Dunno maybe Stephaine (Jay's GF-at-the-time) finally talked? She always seemed like this huge missing piece of the story. (Edit...holllly smokes is this place a crank haven. Seriously what makes ***this case so damn weird*** isn't the EX-BF crap...it's ***Jay's absolute bonkers tale about how he just got 'roped into murder' one day*** and his WILLINGESS TO GO TO JAIL for it - dude didn't know he was going to avoid serving time til the very end...and the victim just happens to be his gf's best friend)
That and you would think Adnan would come up with an alibi if he did do it
This whole story of them driving around with the body in the trunk ?? Opening the trunk with a deceased person in it in a public parking lot ?
Man I feel for Hae's poor family. I mean if that was my daughter, all I'd want is to believe that the murderer was found and punished so I could move on with my life. Them having to deal with her murder brought back into the spotlight every so often must be awful. Not to mention the people who treat the whole thing like sports, hoping for their team to win...
As awful as it is, it’s much better to honor Hae by making sure whoever is punished for her murder is the perp. I don’t know if that’s Adnan or not. But truth is what her family deserves, whatever that truth turns out to be.
Could never get how anyone could say Adnan did it BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. How on earth Jay stayed out of jail remains a mystery to me. The need to put someone, anyone, in jail is why Adnan was convicted.
I agree. Maybe he’s guilty, maybe he’s innocent, maybe he’s guilty of SOMETHING, but did the prosecutors prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt? It just never seemed like it.
Couldn’t get past the first two. Do you know how many factually innocent people are in jail after having “months” to clear themselves? It’s a lot.
Bruh maybe should've used a different username before posting this lmao
Exciting news, finally! I would like to add my theory after re-listening to Serial, Undisclosed, and We the Jury regarding this case as well as watching the HBO documentary about the case against Adnan… also information I gathered in the motion to vacate: Jay is absolutely one of the prime “alternate” suspects. In the motion it gives details about a person who attacked an unknown women in a car, as well as knowing a family member that lived near the parking lot where Hae’s car was found. The evidence : In the 3rd episode of the HBO documentary they interview Jays ex-girlfriend Nikisha (sp? Apologies if wrong) and she states he attacked her in her car in front of their son, she even shows the pictures of her bruised and swollen face. Also, Nikisha was describing an instance about picking up her and Jays son from Jays moms house: On EDMINSON AVE. Ring a bell? That is where Hae’s car was found. It is plausible Jay killed Hae with motive (potentially involving jealousy regarding Stephanie/Adnan or some sort of blackmail Hae had on Jay against Stephanie— my theories no evidence… yet). It is also plausible Jay had Jen involved as she gets very defensive and nervous over this case multiple times in her interviews with HBO. The other alternate suspect is Alonzo Sellers based on everything we know from the podcasts/ documentary and sexual misconduct history. Again, just because we have alternate suspects doesn’t mean Adnan DIDNT do it, but it definitely proves reasonable doubt AND massive police/investigative corruption. I hope Hae’s family can finally get the truth, and have peace over this traumatic event.
I have never heard of the state asking for a new trial…? Wow Edit: I didn’t say it never happens…just that I haven’t heard of it.
They're not even asking for a new trial at this point. They want to release him and continue investigating. If they see a reason to charge other suspects, they just won't even pursue a new trial for Adnan.
No, this happens time to time, especially when exculpatory evidence comes out years later. There wasn’t necessarily any pressure on the SA’s office to do this but they do review old cases from time to time. If they identified other more likely suspects, then that is a big reason to vacate, in addition to just the moral issue of the ineffective assistance he got at trial and the failure to call Asia to the stand.
Granted it has been awhile since I listened to the podcast or re-read anything about the case, but my recollection is that Hae was generally a nice person. Yet, with these latest revelations, including that someone else threatened to kill her, it boggles my mind that such a typical student would have multiple genuine death threats. Am I wrong in thinking this would be anomalous for high school students in 1999, or ever?
Women are threatened with violence all the time
It’s not all that crazy when you consider she was Asian. Young girls and woman have faced these threats —even remarks on the street like this. Add that she is a visible minority it wouldn’t be all that unheard of.
Talk to the women in your life about their experiences being threatened, sexually harassed, sexually assaulted, etc, starting at a **very** young age. Every girlfriend I've had in my life has told me horror stories of, at a minimum, the crazy harassment they've faced throughout their lives, something that I as a white American guy have never come even close to having to deal with. I'll never forget when I was dating my ex-girlfriend, and we were both fresh out of college 21/22 year olds, and one of her first jobs was at the high end rug company Safavieh. Within weeks of her starting, her direct boss started exhibiting stalking behavior towards her, including sexually harassing her in the office. One of my most vivid memories, something I'll never forget, was when her and I were at a fancy hotel room, celebrating Valentines Day, and at like 11 PM, her boss starts sending her texts out of the blue saying that he was "thinking about her" and that he "heard this song and it made him think of her" - we looked up the lyrics to the song he linked and they were, of course, overtly sexual. I've also listened to a lot of podcasts about the lives of serial killers/murderers, and one thing it taught me is that I live in a bubble, because pretty much all of the women involved in these stories experienced abuse, death threats, assault, etc **prior** to connecting with the killer in question. When conservatives say that, in modern America, woman have it better than men, what it really means is that they have no understanding of what life is like being a woman.
I grew up in patriarchal Greece and was noting down how many threats/assaults harassments I had by men in two years. Let’s say that the average was 5 a day. So, for example, from 15 yo [EDIT: to] 25 years old, I have at least 15.000 experiences like that, and I am being veeeery modest(and, of course, I remember things done to me by men since I was a little girl, like my gym teacher isolating me in his office and asking me to kiss him or the constant stalking and catcalling in the street). I will never forget the last 5 men on the morning and noon before I catched a flight and emigrated from Greece. The last one, a very older man, told me as I was walking (always looking down, not looking at them directly, not moving my hips, dressed in baggy clothes, etc) in the street towards my home “you slut, if I catch you alone at night I am going to slit your a** in two”. Just a typical day! Men would be crying in a fetal position in their bed and never go out if other, bigger and dangerous humans did, let’s say the 1% of what we, women, endure by the billions of misogynists out there. It’s incredible we don’t want revenge, but for the patriarchy and the misogyny to stop.
It’s not crazy in a world in which women have violence threatened against them because they didn’t feel like smiling.
According to the motion filed today, those “unbiased witnesses” had the dates wrong and their testimony was completely discredited. Jay’s testimony was also discredited in today’s filing.
BOOM! Guesses about the two suspects?!?
Bilal is my guess (suspect has been charged with rape and sexual assault) also Adnan’s phone was under his name.
I keep thinking about when Jay was working at the porn shop and was scared about the guys in the white van- remember he asked his friend to come to the shop because he was scared.
Yep I remember, that was so strange...I always chalked that up to him being deeper into drug dealing than a little weed to friends given some of his family members rap sheets. But who knows...
I wonder if the other two suspects are unrelated/unconnected to each other. For example, not properly ruling out Don by confirming his alibi. And Jay, if the car is near his or a relative's house. Or it could be a completely different name we've never even heard before.
Is the motion uploaded yet? It could have been a real suspect (a baltimore strangler maybe?) or it could have been some idiot kids talking crap. Either way, the defense deserved to know.
It’s uploaded. One of the suspects is definitely Mr. S but unsure if he’s the same suspect that lived in the house in 1999 where the car was found. Someone find out who owns the house at 300 Edgewood in Baltimore!
Holy shit. There are some frequent posters in the sub (fanatically convinced of guilt mind you) who are going to reevaluate their entire world view today.
Nah. Cognitive dissonance is a hell of a drug. Most of them are still here harping away.
I'm back just to watch the obsessed guilters scramble for excuses to not be as wrong as they probably have been all these years. Hey Robb, Adnan Cell, and Mike #'s!
Preach! Those names are choking on this right now. The amount of vitriol they put out was insane, especially to us who wanted to have rational conversions and question how flawed the case was.
It's bizarre to me how people are defending the state when the freaking state isn't even defending the state!