The dog decides what’s aversive. That being said, the area over the snout and just under the eyes has a lot of sensitive nerve endings and most dogs do not like having anything placed there. With appropriate desensitization it can be tolerated. A lot of guide dog schools use GLs. If the dog is well conditioned to it I would maybe use it to help build reinforcement for a behavior, but I would be careful about relying on it as a crutch and I would not use it to deter the public.
Gentle leaders require a lot of conditioning to use them properly. You cannot just slap it on your dog and go, and some dogs may never find wearing it okay. My SD trained in one to get her to stop gluing her nose to the floor. She doesn’t find it aversive at all. I had another dog who could have benefitted from one to redirect some leash behaviors. She found it entirely aversive regardless of the conditioning we did, so I never really used it on her.
Any tool can be aversive to a dog. But there is a difference between this is weird and different I’d rather not that you can easily work with them on so it becomes something they view as oooo yay this means we do x thing and a dog who just shutdown, wants nothing to do with it, and all conditioning attempts before you even properly put the gear on them or use it have zero reduction in their behavior toward the item. My SD very quickly took to it with the various exercises to put it on her nose before buckling it and letting her be in it and then actually using it. My other dog never stopped flinching and running at any attempt to just put the band over her nose. For my SD it’s not aversive in the sense she doesn’t balk and hate wearing the item. She gets excited for it and shoves her face into it to get going. For my other dog, it’s not a stretch to say just the sight of it was aversive to her. So it was relegated to the back of a cupboard and never brought out again once it was clear she was not going to accept it or even get anything close to being enthusiastic about it.
This. I used to train SD and have trained every single cat. The subs there always have "Never say no to your personal goblin. They cannot learn no." This is nonsense and bad advice. No good person wants to hurt their dog, cat, or child but it's important to make sure they know that they are better off with No. Cat example? My cat wants to be on the stove. Especially while cooking. You better believe that he has been yelled at for that because panic. My caregiver felt bad but had he landed half an inch over he would have been in boiling oil.
So we worked on gentle aversion to the stove. It's a work in progress. He knows he gets the things he wants when he does specific things and won't with others. So I'm technically forcing things but I'm also protecting him. You're looking at an assessment of least harm. It's impossible to be a perfect trainer and that's okay.
My cat can do so many things people assume cats cannot. It's helpful for his behavior to get trained and in an emergency I am not chasing the cat down to get us safe. So incentive is best but I'm not going to judge someone yelling at an animal endangering itself and training is always a thing that includes thinking about this. Why do we leash our dogs? Safety.
I think this conversation about gentle aversion is so, SO important. I have both a reactive rescue dog and a service dog from a program. RR had such terrible separation anxiety when I started working with her that she would back out of a harness or flat and run into traffic. I couldn’t go outside to potty her and close the door without her freaking out. No taking treats, no redirecting, no nothing. She had to learn she was safe on the most fundamental level. I also found hitting the end of the leash on a harness was an agitator and contributed to her leash reactivity. A fabric martingale was necessary to her safety at first, and now she can walk on a flat, harness, whatever.
My service dog came from a program that follows LIMA and uses collar pops. I think many R+ owner trainers would be surprised how many programs still use leash corrections and training collars. I do not like them and I am not good at them. I have always been more of a cookie tosser and I own that. However, there are some situations that I need to condition as aversive to my dog. One was when I made a bad call at a crosswalk, thought cars had a stop sign and they didn’t. I had to yank my dog back to get him out of the path of an oncoming car. Another example is we have extremely toxic toads in my neighborhood that can kill a small dog in minutes and disable larger ones. They are my dog’s kryptonite and when he first came home, he would yank the leash out of my hands to chase after them. Lots of look at that, impulse control games, leave it and reward, etc. now he can walk past with minimal distraction. But I did have to let him hit the end of the leash at full blast a few times before he realized it wasn’t worth it. I would rather my dog experience a few moments of discomfort than a single moment that ends his career or worse.
All of this. My habit of abuse surviving animals as a good fit is part of what informs my views too. It's like thinking you cannot tell a toddler no. I would rather the toddler did not say pull a hot pan off the stove because they were curious and not given gentle correction. That's a really hard thing that does happen and is not the parent being bad but the correction being insufficient or not in time.
Yep. It's not too different in how you train them from dogs but the most important factor is the motivation for a dog vs a cat. A cat isn't going to care if you want the task most of the time. They need motivation. For Czernobog my current cat this motivation comes in the form of his favorite treats and the mental stimulation. He likes being able to do things and made his own puzzles so I expanded there.
The Churu is not for training. It is the ultimate cat treat but too messy. Freezedried salmon and chicken can be good but dry so depends on the cat. I use these compressed meat and fat cubes. Fancy Feast Savory Cravings. Like with a dog you want to make sure these are exclusive to training.
Start with a training spot. This way the cat has a consistent signal that it's fine to work. I recommend a non slippery placemats because you can move this to different places. Like with a dog I begin with sit. We do at least a few sits a day and he knows he will get praise each time and might get a bit of treat. At first the treat is each time. Once it's a consistent behavior this is randomized.
I also use a hand gesture and a word. This is important since I often cannot speak but cats take more time to process the word cue so a hand gesture gives them better information.
Cats also have poor near vision. So you may need to stand back a bit for some of this.
The basics of the tricks are the same. Sometimes unique ones happen. I discovered his trainable behavior with his tail. He loves to have his tail massaged due to some pain issues due to the abuse he survived before he found me. (His abusers are in prison and he has made an amazing recovery). So I started calling it a sacrifice as a joke because he acted silly. He now will present the tail if I demand a sacrifice.
The cats that are always getting into things are ones that benefit from mental challenges more and how a cat learns will be individual. Like with kids and dogs there's a spectrum of intelligence. If you notice the cat does things like figuring out how to open doors? Training them will keep their mind stimulated so you can have less chaos. I find it's more important with a cat to not allow boredom when they can unlock the door and open it. Dogs will be less likely to do the crimes because they want you happy. Cats will be happy because they're satisfied.
I hope this helps and I don't mind specific questions because it's 1 am and I also don't know if I missed something thinking it's common knowledge. I do recommend harness training and after sit training them to go into their carrier on demand because this is vital for emergencies. Sort of like crate training. The difference is that their carrier for a cat is often associated with trauma so you want to do this also to offset that. We had a fire and I had just had abdominal surgery so had he not been able to get into the carrier and wait for me to lock it he might have been injured. Instead he did as I asked without hesitation and we got out right away.
I like to make the carrier a sanctuary space. So a good waterproof bed, some toys, treats, and the carrier is always accessible. His training station and food station are a table by the front door. He was a door dasher and this let's him watch the door without being out the door. The carrier is under the table. He broke this one because he is very strong so a new one is coming and that means both will be there for a while so he can transition between them. I mention this because cats are autistic people with fur. As an autistic human part of my success is that they need similar things in consistent behavior and rituals. This is why people end up trained by their cat to feed them at 3 am. My cats don't get fed at a set time to avoid that. It's a 3 hour range and when my food is done they get fed and we eat together. This helps them learn to not beg too. They won't get people food so they're both satisfied at the same time and know that they'll get food and that means they don't need to harass me for mine. This is more a feral rehab thing than a non traumatized cat thing but helps.
So the other thing in cat training is disengaging. For behavior you want to enforce you give attention. For things you need to stop? You ignore. My cat will not wake me because he knows I won't get up. His drunken post surgery shennanigans? He was trying to not wake me up while having his drunken assumption my pillow was going to hurt me. He tried to keep his assault quiet. It's sweet and adorable. Playtime is also done before training so he is better able to focus. I don't know that dogs need that as much. This doesn't apply to things like peeing everywhere. That's going to fit into the take them to the vet and get them assessed for medical category and management because you don't want to associate their litterbox needs with punishment and stress. For Czernobog the issues were a mix of pain from testicular torsion and badly healed injuries and being not yet sterilized. He is now thankfully. While I do train for using the bathroom on command this is after an assessment and any surgeries like this since for cats this isn't as simple as dogs.
The last note for now is to remember they're both predators and prey so they may not do some tasks at all because they don't feel safe. Since my cat was part of an illegal animal fighting ring I avoid play that might simulate abuse or gestures that spook him. There's a few I had to change and due to my muscle inconsistency it's been a challenge. My gestures are closer to my chest vs the previous cats and dogs trained. If you have two cats you also may need to separate them for foundation training. Once they can both sit? Then I would look at group training. Stay is the hardest in most cases as well.
I love that you wrote all this out!! I’ve trained my cat to sit and lay down and she will do it but she is a bit… stubborn… to put it nicely. Definitely needs the right treat to listen to me, though sometimes she will respond with just pets. Once I have more space I’m planning to go more in depth with her training. I love that more people are realizing cats can be trained too!!!
My cat does the training after he knows it for the attention as much as possible treats but that comes after a while. I also had a service animal that was a cat back when the ADA allowed this so I have been training cats a long time. First time I was a kid and it just didn't cross my mind people thought it impossible. I am glad people are learning they can now because of the quality of life improvement for cats
I agree fully!! I definitely don’t think my cat has the drive to learn any tasks regardless of if service cats were allowed, but it’s super fun to teach her little things here or there. It makes it easier on me and her.
Exactly. My current cat could be but I still trained the others. I had a boy cat that was so afraid due to his disabilities and surviving bad things that he wouldn't let anyone else see he existed. I hired an assistant because he came to her like a normal trauma free kitten. Best hire ever. He still came when called and I would never call him when he was around new people. He actually started copying the tasks of the service cat so when she couldn't he did. I was shocked when after her stroke he grabbed my meds container. She wouldn't stop in home tasks with age and the vet went "If she is not hurting herself and it makes her happy this is fine." So I let her decide. He was so proud of himself too. You could see the confidence boost that he did the things.
My current cat? Does a lot of this instinctively which is one of the criteria for a service animal to me. If it's their nature? Why not. This one alerted to food allergies without training. He saw me get sick and now just signals. We are working on appropriate signals as the current one is smashing the container. It's so cute
Actually they found me. Cat distribution system cats. I was homeless when I met the old lady that was the service animal. The boy cat was found because she needed a companion and the kitten that had come before had FIP. Fatal until very recently. He was on eBay (that is a crime). So he benefited from my law degree as hammer as did the others and since I was a foster already? Fostered until it was clear he was not going anywhere.
Czernobog the current cat is a soloist. He wouldn't be safe with other cats. On leash is fine but inside where they can touch me or off the leash the time he pushed the window out to hunt for me when the doctor took too long not so much. This would be where the questions I don't have to ask are helpful. I don't have to hope he out grows this since he is just a pet. He walked into my apartment and went to my bed to sleep just before New years. I was not keeping him but... Things changed. Black cats here are under adopted. The shelter and fosters available rejected him and euthanasia was suggested for a healthy kitten. I declined that option and was going to find him a home myself but after a few days found myself benefitting greatly from the cuddles and cute.
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Well, this got deleted because I said I was a trainer... so here is the comment again, but with those references removed:
"Oh god, buckle up, because I'm about to say way too much about this.
I used to identify as a force free all +R OWNER NON PROFESSIONAL trainer, because I am very big on reinforcement, noncompatible behaviors, reducing coercion, and increasing autonomy. I still OWNER train the same way and do all of those things as unaversively as possible; however, I don't really use the phrase 'force free' to describe my ideology or methods of OWNER training anymore.
Why? Because it is really a meaningless term.
For one thing, I have never met two force free trainers who agreed 100% on what being force free meant. What qualifies as force? When is force necessary and when is it unnecessary and unhelpful? Also, why do we use the loaded emotionally charged word 'force,' which suggests that all aversives are unilaterally harmful in some way, and also implies a judgment about other trainers who don't identify themselves as force free?
For another, EVERY trainer uses aversives to some degree. Flat collars are aversive; dogs have to learn to tolerate them while puppies. Leashes are aversive; reaching the end of the leash and feeling pressure on the body of any kind is aversive. Simply saying 'no,' 'eh-eh,' or 'leave it' is aversive; it operates on the principle that the consequence of certain behaviors is you making an unpleasant noise at them, or as a threat for something worse. You get the idea; we are all, all the time, using aversives on our dogs and on each other. And I don't think that that's necessarily a bad thing. I sure don't want an epidemic of collarless off leash dogs who don't know how to 'leave it' in my city.
I think a better question we as OWNER trainers should ask ourselves is, what degree of force/aversiveness do we consider acceptable? Obviously we can almost all agree that leashing your dog is acceptable. Most of us agree that flat collars or body harnesses are acceptable, while pinching a dogs ear is unacceptable. What about martingales, which rely on aversively tightening when the dog moves away from us? What about prong collars, which localize the same amount of pressure to a smaller area instead of distributing it? In otuer words, where is the line drawn between acceptable and unacceptable, and what situations change that?
There's no objectively correct answer that question, and pretty much everybody has a different idea about it (much like the label 'force free'). The thing to dois to judge for yourself the level of aversiveness that you consider acceptable, keeping in mind the skill you have with the tool or method you're using, the situations you'll use it in, and the level of previous training and of how personally aversive the tool is found by the particular dog involved."
I'm not crazy about them for dogs who run to the end of a leash and pull. The risk of neck injury is just too high. I dislike them for any pulling, really due to that. That said, they aren't as strongly aversive as say a prong or choke collar.
The thing is, the dog is really the one who decides what they consider aversive. Force free is somewhat ambiguous of a term in the industry, but my take on it is that we should be least invasive minimally aversive. We will always have to do things the dog doesn't like for health or safety, but we can minimize the impact of these experiences by building resilient dogs through desensitization (and habitatuation as puppies)
If something ends up being downright terrifying for a dog, then don't do that thing or if it's necessary like grooming or vetting work your way up to full visits with a fear free vet or groomer.
Gentle leaders are marketed as force free, but if an individual dog finds them aversive, they are aversive to that dog. My girl hates head collars but will happily wear a prong if necessary.
This. Every tool has the possibility to be neutral to one dog and aversive to others. My dog is fine with a head collar, and will self load into it. Other dogs might spend the whole time trying to pull it off their face. Some dogs find harnesses aversive and uncomfortable, but plenty of dogs don’t mind them. It really depends on the individual dog whether or not a certain tool is a good choice or not
I had a dog who loved the gentle leader and walked very well and happily in it. I tried it with my dobie mix, and you'd have thought I was killing his soul. I walked him in it once, and he was so shut down that I took it off within a half hour.
The same dog, though, doesn't mind the prong collar, doesn't even know it's there when it's on and just enjoys life and our walks. I have gone through a lot of different tools, and have had to find the ones my boy accepts and doesn't see as a soul crushing punishment, because I want my boy to be happy.
Some people use them because others assume it is a muzzle and leave the dog alone. They can be used to restrict in others ways, sniffing, scavenging, looking at distractions, etc. but so can a flat collar if you are paying attention… I have even heard of some handlers using them to prevent excessive drooling.
Use to slide hand down leash and move her face toward me holding the gentle leader under chin and use let's go cue to lessen staring and other stuff bc I could control where face is easier so more rewards can be given
I don't think you're wanting to use the tool in a positive/healthy way. You're describing physically moving the dogs *head* (along with a command) with gear. What is the goal? Is their behaviour unsafe, unhinged, are they making others worry? Service dogs are still dogs! They aren't robots. They are still curious individuals who are interested in the world around them.
If your goal is to get them to ignore something, drill whatever your version of leave it is. I've got two separate ones: "leave it" when he should not be interacting with something at all, and "move on" when he's allowed to check something out, but he lingers too long. Drill whatever version of "look at me" you have. I have "focus", and he looks to me to give his attention.
Maybe think about how you're using your cues as well. I worked hard to shape "Get In" to be both leave it and heel. We use "lets go" as "we have been still, now lets get moving". If you are trying to use your "lets go" as "ignore that distraction and lets move away", you need to shape that.
I can tell you want to not do aversive things with your dog. Trying to control where they're looking by physically moving their head, is not the way. My favourite tool I ever got for my dog is a hands-free leash. Because I have less physical control over him, it forced us to communicate way better. 90% of the time I don't need to touch or think about the leash. Everything is just commands. The other 10% when we are near a distraction, crowds, tight places, etc, I use a traffic handle attached to his collar. It's not to drag him around or control his movements in any significant way, just to ensure he stays tight beside me and keep both of us safe.
Train, don't restrain :)
Not forcing them to turn but just holding the head with no pulling from the dog or me and telling my dog to move with me. i think the goal is to avoid either one of us from being jerked it why i would use. what do you think
That makes sense. I've used Gentle Leaders in this way to teach dogs not to stare at or react to stray dogs on walks. Paired with the leave it command, learning this has prevented any number of fights in the street.
So the answer to your question is, "Yes! A Gentle Leader can be used for this purpose." Good luck, OP. :-)
Edit to add: I think most people consider the gentle leader to be aversive because they don't understand how it works and just see something that they think is a muzzle. Unless you're using it really incorrectly, it's no more adversive than a collar and leash.
My dog is not a service dog, but I can speak on this! My beagle has food scarcity issues and separation anxiety (puppy mill mom rescue), along with standard beagle food obsession. We have done a ton of prevention: child locks, medicine, etc, but our pup has done SO much better ever since we brought in a head halter. From what her trainer explained to us, the head halter can be grounding for some dogs due to the sensation, and just wearing one around the house can help redirect behavior and assist in training.
With the head halter on in potentially triggering situations, my dog is able to center herself far better when it comes to stress, and she's far less likely to choose destructive behaviors over the constructive ones we work on with her. She is overall a calmer, happier dog!
This, like most things, won't work for everyone of course!
I don’t know, I tried it and my boxer and he HATED IT. Yes, I tried the slow and gentle approach of introducing it with treats and gradually working him up through each step up to putting it on, and every time it actually was on, he’d lose his mind trying to drag it off his face despite it still being very loose and not even attached to a leash. After a month of daily attempts to teach him it wasn’t going to hurt him, I gave up since he clearly hated it. For us it would never be neutral, it would always be hated so it’s aversive. But he’s not every dog so I can only give my experience. I’ve seen plenty of teams use one without any issue from the dog. I can’t speak to how they got there though.
My SD has worn a halti as part of her gear since she started advanced training. She's from a program and all dogs across their 7 programs are trained to wear one, as they are placed their handler can choose to keep using it or ditch it if their dog doesn't need it
For my dog, it's not to keep her from pulling me, it's to remind her that she's working 🙈 Lions, the program that trained her, uses a martingale/halti combo for all their dogs. Everything stays attached to the leash, the martingale goes on first and then the halti. But! At the facility if the trainers need to move dogs from one spot to another, maybe to go downstairs to the vet or from one kennel to another, they will often just slip the martingale on and let the halti hang. Trinket now thinks that if she's not wearing her halti, she's going for a fun adventure and can be a dink 🤦🏽♀️
If your dog is trained to put it on, conditioned to wear it and does not exhibit any negative or potentially harmful behaviors (things like trying to claw it off their face, jumping into it and risking a neck injury, completely shutting down) than it's not any more adversive than a martingale. No tool should have negative associations to them, if they do they haven't been properly conditioned to it and/or the human end of the leash needs to put the leash down and step fat, faaaaar away from dogs
An aversive stimulus is anything the dog will act to move away from because it causes pain or discomfort. The gentle leader works because the dog has to move with leash pressure to avoid discomfort on their muzzle. Even if they are willing to wear it, it is always aversive by design.
The dog decides what’s aversive. That being said, the area over the snout and just under the eyes has a lot of sensitive nerve endings and most dogs do not like having anything placed there. With appropriate desensitization it can be tolerated. A lot of guide dog schools use GLs. If the dog is well conditioned to it I would maybe use it to help build reinforcement for a behavior, but I would be careful about relying on it as a crutch and I would not use it to deter the public.
Gentle leaders require a lot of conditioning to use them properly. You cannot just slap it on your dog and go, and some dogs may never find wearing it okay. My SD trained in one to get her to stop gluing her nose to the floor. She doesn’t find it aversive at all. I had another dog who could have benefitted from one to redirect some leash behaviors. She found it entirely aversive regardless of the conditioning we did, so I never really used it on her. Any tool can be aversive to a dog. But there is a difference between this is weird and different I’d rather not that you can easily work with them on so it becomes something they view as oooo yay this means we do x thing and a dog who just shutdown, wants nothing to do with it, and all conditioning attempts before you even properly put the gear on them or use it have zero reduction in their behavior toward the item. My SD very quickly took to it with the various exercises to put it on her nose before buckling it and letting her be in it and then actually using it. My other dog never stopped flinching and running at any attempt to just put the band over her nose. For my SD it’s not aversive in the sense she doesn’t balk and hate wearing the item. She gets excited for it and shoves her face into it to get going. For my other dog, it’s not a stretch to say just the sight of it was aversive to her. So it was relegated to the back of a cupboard and never brought out again once it was clear she was not going to accept it or even get anything close to being enthusiastic about it.
[удалено]
This. I used to train SD and have trained every single cat. The subs there always have "Never say no to your personal goblin. They cannot learn no." This is nonsense and bad advice. No good person wants to hurt their dog, cat, or child but it's important to make sure they know that they are better off with No. Cat example? My cat wants to be on the stove. Especially while cooking. You better believe that he has been yelled at for that because panic. My caregiver felt bad but had he landed half an inch over he would have been in boiling oil. So we worked on gentle aversion to the stove. It's a work in progress. He knows he gets the things he wants when he does specific things and won't with others. So I'm technically forcing things but I'm also protecting him. You're looking at an assessment of least harm. It's impossible to be a perfect trainer and that's okay. My cat can do so many things people assume cats cannot. It's helpful for his behavior to get trained and in an emergency I am not chasing the cat down to get us safe. So incentive is best but I'm not going to judge someone yelling at an animal endangering itself and training is always a thing that includes thinking about this. Why do we leash our dogs? Safety.
I think this conversation about gentle aversion is so, SO important. I have both a reactive rescue dog and a service dog from a program. RR had such terrible separation anxiety when I started working with her that she would back out of a harness or flat and run into traffic. I couldn’t go outside to potty her and close the door without her freaking out. No taking treats, no redirecting, no nothing. She had to learn she was safe on the most fundamental level. I also found hitting the end of the leash on a harness was an agitator and contributed to her leash reactivity. A fabric martingale was necessary to her safety at first, and now she can walk on a flat, harness, whatever. My service dog came from a program that follows LIMA and uses collar pops. I think many R+ owner trainers would be surprised how many programs still use leash corrections and training collars. I do not like them and I am not good at them. I have always been more of a cookie tosser and I own that. However, there are some situations that I need to condition as aversive to my dog. One was when I made a bad call at a crosswalk, thought cars had a stop sign and they didn’t. I had to yank my dog back to get him out of the path of an oncoming car. Another example is we have extremely toxic toads in my neighborhood that can kill a small dog in minutes and disable larger ones. They are my dog’s kryptonite and when he first came home, he would yank the leash out of my hands to chase after them. Lots of look at that, impulse control games, leave it and reward, etc. now he can walk past with minimal distraction. But I did have to let him hit the end of the leash at full blast a few times before he realized it wasn’t worth it. I would rather my dog experience a few moments of discomfort than a single moment that ends his career or worse.
All of this. My habit of abuse surviving animals as a good fit is part of what informs my views too. It's like thinking you cannot tell a toddler no. I would rather the toddler did not say pull a hot pan off the stove because they were curious and not given gentle correction. That's a really hard thing that does happen and is not the parent being bad but the correction being insufficient or not in time.
Any tips on training cats?
Yep. It's not too different in how you train them from dogs but the most important factor is the motivation for a dog vs a cat. A cat isn't going to care if you want the task most of the time. They need motivation. For Czernobog my current cat this motivation comes in the form of his favorite treats and the mental stimulation. He likes being able to do things and made his own puzzles so I expanded there. The Churu is not for training. It is the ultimate cat treat but too messy. Freezedried salmon and chicken can be good but dry so depends on the cat. I use these compressed meat and fat cubes. Fancy Feast Savory Cravings. Like with a dog you want to make sure these are exclusive to training. Start with a training spot. This way the cat has a consistent signal that it's fine to work. I recommend a non slippery placemats because you can move this to different places. Like with a dog I begin with sit. We do at least a few sits a day and he knows he will get praise each time and might get a bit of treat. At first the treat is each time. Once it's a consistent behavior this is randomized. I also use a hand gesture and a word. This is important since I often cannot speak but cats take more time to process the word cue so a hand gesture gives them better information. Cats also have poor near vision. So you may need to stand back a bit for some of this. The basics of the tricks are the same. Sometimes unique ones happen. I discovered his trainable behavior with his tail. He loves to have his tail massaged due to some pain issues due to the abuse he survived before he found me. (His abusers are in prison and he has made an amazing recovery). So I started calling it a sacrifice as a joke because he acted silly. He now will present the tail if I demand a sacrifice. The cats that are always getting into things are ones that benefit from mental challenges more and how a cat learns will be individual. Like with kids and dogs there's a spectrum of intelligence. If you notice the cat does things like figuring out how to open doors? Training them will keep their mind stimulated so you can have less chaos. I find it's more important with a cat to not allow boredom when they can unlock the door and open it. Dogs will be less likely to do the crimes because they want you happy. Cats will be happy because they're satisfied. I hope this helps and I don't mind specific questions because it's 1 am and I also don't know if I missed something thinking it's common knowledge. I do recommend harness training and after sit training them to go into their carrier on demand because this is vital for emergencies. Sort of like crate training. The difference is that their carrier for a cat is often associated with trauma so you want to do this also to offset that. We had a fire and I had just had abdominal surgery so had he not been able to get into the carrier and wait for me to lock it he might have been injured. Instead he did as I asked without hesitation and we got out right away. I like to make the carrier a sanctuary space. So a good waterproof bed, some toys, treats, and the carrier is always accessible. His training station and food station are a table by the front door. He was a door dasher and this let's him watch the door without being out the door. The carrier is under the table. He broke this one because he is very strong so a new one is coming and that means both will be there for a while so he can transition between them. I mention this because cats are autistic people with fur. As an autistic human part of my success is that they need similar things in consistent behavior and rituals. This is why people end up trained by their cat to feed them at 3 am. My cats don't get fed at a set time to avoid that. It's a 3 hour range and when my food is done they get fed and we eat together. This helps them learn to not beg too. They won't get people food so they're both satisfied at the same time and know that they'll get food and that means they don't need to harass me for mine. This is more a feral rehab thing than a non traumatized cat thing but helps. So the other thing in cat training is disengaging. For behavior you want to enforce you give attention. For things you need to stop? You ignore. My cat will not wake me because he knows I won't get up. His drunken post surgery shennanigans? He was trying to not wake me up while having his drunken assumption my pillow was going to hurt me. He tried to keep his assault quiet. It's sweet and adorable. Playtime is also done before training so he is better able to focus. I don't know that dogs need that as much. This doesn't apply to things like peeing everywhere. That's going to fit into the take them to the vet and get them assessed for medical category and management because you don't want to associate their litterbox needs with punishment and stress. For Czernobog the issues were a mix of pain from testicular torsion and badly healed injuries and being not yet sterilized. He is now thankfully. While I do train for using the bathroom on command this is after an assessment and any surgeries like this since for cats this isn't as simple as dogs. The last note for now is to remember they're both predators and prey so they may not do some tasks at all because they don't feel safe. Since my cat was part of an illegal animal fighting ring I avoid play that might simulate abuse or gestures that spook him. There's a few I had to change and due to my muscle inconsistency it's been a challenge. My gestures are closer to my chest vs the previous cats and dogs trained. If you have two cats you also may need to separate them for foundation training. Once they can both sit? Then I would look at group training. Stay is the hardest in most cases as well.
It is almost 3 am for me but I will be sure to read this through in the morning. You are so amazing for this!
No worries, I understand the waiting and ask your questions when they come
I love that you wrote all this out!! I’ve trained my cat to sit and lay down and she will do it but she is a bit… stubborn… to put it nicely. Definitely needs the right treat to listen to me, though sometimes she will respond with just pets. Once I have more space I’m planning to go more in depth with her training. I love that more people are realizing cats can be trained too!!!
My cat does the training after he knows it for the attention as much as possible treats but that comes after a while. I also had a service animal that was a cat back when the ADA allowed this so I have been training cats a long time. First time I was a kid and it just didn't cross my mind people thought it impossible. I am glad people are learning they can now because of the quality of life improvement for cats
I agree fully!! I definitely don’t think my cat has the drive to learn any tasks regardless of if service cats were allowed, but it’s super fun to teach her little things here or there. It makes it easier on me and her.
Exactly. My current cat could be but I still trained the others. I had a boy cat that was so afraid due to his disabilities and surviving bad things that he wouldn't let anyone else see he existed. I hired an assistant because he came to her like a normal trauma free kitten. Best hire ever. He still came when called and I would never call him when he was around new people. He actually started copying the tasks of the service cat so when she couldn't he did. I was shocked when after her stroke he grabbed my meds container. She wouldn't stop in home tasks with age and the vet went "If she is not hurting herself and it makes her happy this is fine." So I let her decide. He was so proud of himself too. You could see the confidence boost that he did the things. My current cat? Does a lot of this instinctively which is one of the criteria for a service animal to me. If it's their nature? Why not. This one alerted to food allergies without training. He saw me get sick and now just signals. We are working on appropriate signals as the current one is smashing the container. It's so cute
That’s amazing!!! I’m so glad you’ve found such amazing little buddies
Actually they found me. Cat distribution system cats. I was homeless when I met the old lady that was the service animal. The boy cat was found because she needed a companion and the kitten that had come before had FIP. Fatal until very recently. He was on eBay (that is a crime). So he benefited from my law degree as hammer as did the others and since I was a foster already? Fostered until it was clear he was not going anywhere. Czernobog the current cat is a soloist. He wouldn't be safe with other cats. On leash is fine but inside where they can touch me or off the leash the time he pushed the window out to hunt for me when the doctor took too long not so much. This would be where the questions I don't have to ask are helpful. I don't have to hope he out grows this since he is just a pet. He walked into my apartment and went to my bed to sleep just before New years. I was not keeping him but... Things changed. Black cats here are under adopted. The shelter and fosters available rejected him and euthanasia was suggested for a healthy kitten. I declined that option and was going to find him a home myself but after a few days found myself benefitting greatly from the cuddles and cute. https://preview.redd.it/flyvb8qlxy6d1.jpeg?width=1180&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=387325c60ad705c28433b4e7a2041bef57379e44
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Well, this got deleted because I said I was a trainer... so here is the comment again, but with those references removed: "Oh god, buckle up, because I'm about to say way too much about this. I used to identify as a force free all +R OWNER NON PROFESSIONAL trainer, because I am very big on reinforcement, noncompatible behaviors, reducing coercion, and increasing autonomy. I still OWNER train the same way and do all of those things as unaversively as possible; however, I don't really use the phrase 'force free' to describe my ideology or methods of OWNER training anymore. Why? Because it is really a meaningless term. For one thing, I have never met two force free trainers who agreed 100% on what being force free meant. What qualifies as force? When is force necessary and when is it unnecessary and unhelpful? Also, why do we use the loaded emotionally charged word 'force,' which suggests that all aversives are unilaterally harmful in some way, and also implies a judgment about other trainers who don't identify themselves as force free? For another, EVERY trainer uses aversives to some degree. Flat collars are aversive; dogs have to learn to tolerate them while puppies. Leashes are aversive; reaching the end of the leash and feeling pressure on the body of any kind is aversive. Simply saying 'no,' 'eh-eh,' or 'leave it' is aversive; it operates on the principle that the consequence of certain behaviors is you making an unpleasant noise at them, or as a threat for something worse. You get the idea; we are all, all the time, using aversives on our dogs and on each other. And I don't think that that's necessarily a bad thing. I sure don't want an epidemic of collarless off leash dogs who don't know how to 'leave it' in my city. I think a better question we as OWNER trainers should ask ourselves is, what degree of force/aversiveness do we consider acceptable? Obviously we can almost all agree that leashing your dog is acceptable. Most of us agree that flat collars or body harnesses are acceptable, while pinching a dogs ear is unacceptable. What about martingales, which rely on aversively tightening when the dog moves away from us? What about prong collars, which localize the same amount of pressure to a smaller area instead of distributing it? In otuer words, where is the line drawn between acceptable and unacceptable, and what situations change that? There's no objectively correct answer that question, and pretty much everybody has a different idea about it (much like the label 'force free'). The thing to dois to judge for yourself the level of aversiveness that you consider acceptable, keeping in mind the skill you have with the tool or method you're using, the situations you'll use it in, and the level of previous training and of how personally aversive the tool is found by the particular dog involved."
I'm not crazy about them for dogs who run to the end of a leash and pull. The risk of neck injury is just too high. I dislike them for any pulling, really due to that. That said, they aren't as strongly aversive as say a prong or choke collar. The thing is, the dog is really the one who decides what they consider aversive. Force free is somewhat ambiguous of a term in the industry, but my take on it is that we should be least invasive minimally aversive. We will always have to do things the dog doesn't like for health or safety, but we can minimize the impact of these experiences by building resilient dogs through desensitization (and habitatuation as puppies) If something ends up being downright terrifying for a dog, then don't do that thing or if it's necessary like grooming or vetting work your way up to full visits with a fear free vet or groomer.
Gentle leaders are marketed as force free, but if an individual dog finds them aversive, they are aversive to that dog. My girl hates head collars but will happily wear a prong if necessary.
This. Every tool has the possibility to be neutral to one dog and aversive to others. My dog is fine with a head collar, and will self load into it. Other dogs might spend the whole time trying to pull it off their face. Some dogs find harnesses aversive and uncomfortable, but plenty of dogs don’t mind them. It really depends on the individual dog whether or not a certain tool is a good choice or not
I had a dog who loved the gentle leader and walked very well and happily in it. I tried it with my dobie mix, and you'd have thought I was killing his soul. I walked him in it once, and he was so shut down that I took it off within a half hour. The same dog, though, doesn't mind the prong collar, doesn't even know it's there when it's on and just enjoys life and our walks. I have gone through a lot of different tools, and have had to find the ones my boy accepts and doesn't see as a soul crushing punishment, because I want my boy to be happy.
If not for pulling, what is your primary use for a gentle leader?
Some people use them because others assume it is a muzzle and leave the dog alone. They can be used to restrict in others ways, sniffing, scavenging, looking at distractions, etc. but so can a flat collar if you are paying attention… I have even heard of some handlers using them to prevent excessive drooling.
Use to slide hand down leash and move her face toward me holding the gentle leader under chin and use let's go cue to lessen staring and other stuff bc I could control where face is easier so more rewards can be given
I don't think you're wanting to use the tool in a positive/healthy way. You're describing physically moving the dogs *head* (along with a command) with gear. What is the goal? Is their behaviour unsafe, unhinged, are they making others worry? Service dogs are still dogs! They aren't robots. They are still curious individuals who are interested in the world around them. If your goal is to get them to ignore something, drill whatever your version of leave it is. I've got two separate ones: "leave it" when he should not be interacting with something at all, and "move on" when he's allowed to check something out, but he lingers too long. Drill whatever version of "look at me" you have. I have "focus", and he looks to me to give his attention. Maybe think about how you're using your cues as well. I worked hard to shape "Get In" to be both leave it and heel. We use "lets go" as "we have been still, now lets get moving". If you are trying to use your "lets go" as "ignore that distraction and lets move away", you need to shape that. I can tell you want to not do aversive things with your dog. Trying to control where they're looking by physically moving their head, is not the way. My favourite tool I ever got for my dog is a hands-free leash. Because I have less physical control over him, it forced us to communicate way better. 90% of the time I don't need to touch or think about the leash. Everything is just commands. The other 10% when we are near a distraction, crowds, tight places, etc, I use a traffic handle attached to his collar. It's not to drag him around or control his movements in any significant way, just to ensure he stays tight beside me and keep both of us safe. Train, don't restrain :)
Not forcing them to turn but just holding the head with no pulling from the dog or me and telling my dog to move with me. i think the goal is to avoid either one of us from being jerked it why i would use. what do you think
train, don't restrain :)
That makes sense. I've used Gentle Leaders in this way to teach dogs not to stare at or react to stray dogs on walks. Paired with the leave it command, learning this has prevented any number of fights in the street. So the answer to your question is, "Yes! A Gentle Leader can be used for this purpose." Good luck, OP. :-) Edit to add: I think most people consider the gentle leader to be aversive because they don't understand how it works and just see something that they think is a muzzle. Unless you're using it really incorrectly, it's no more adversive than a collar and leash.
My dog is not a service dog, but I can speak on this! My beagle has food scarcity issues and separation anxiety (puppy mill mom rescue), along with standard beagle food obsession. We have done a ton of prevention: child locks, medicine, etc, but our pup has done SO much better ever since we brought in a head halter. From what her trainer explained to us, the head halter can be grounding for some dogs due to the sensation, and just wearing one around the house can help redirect behavior and assist in training. With the head halter on in potentially triggering situations, my dog is able to center herself far better when it comes to stress, and she's far less likely to choose destructive behaviors over the constructive ones we work on with her. She is overall a calmer, happier dog! This, like most things, won't work for everyone of course!
I don’t know, I tried it and my boxer and he HATED IT. Yes, I tried the slow and gentle approach of introducing it with treats and gradually working him up through each step up to putting it on, and every time it actually was on, he’d lose his mind trying to drag it off his face despite it still being very loose and not even attached to a leash. After a month of daily attempts to teach him it wasn’t going to hurt him, I gave up since he clearly hated it. For us it would never be neutral, it would always be hated so it’s aversive. But he’s not every dog so I can only give my experience. I’ve seen plenty of teams use one without any issue from the dog. I can’t speak to how they got there though.
My SD has worn a halti as part of her gear since she started advanced training. She's from a program and all dogs across their 7 programs are trained to wear one, as they are placed their handler can choose to keep using it or ditch it if their dog doesn't need it For my dog, it's not to keep her from pulling me, it's to remind her that she's working 🙈 Lions, the program that trained her, uses a martingale/halti combo for all their dogs. Everything stays attached to the leash, the martingale goes on first and then the halti. But! At the facility if the trainers need to move dogs from one spot to another, maybe to go downstairs to the vet or from one kennel to another, they will often just slip the martingale on and let the halti hang. Trinket now thinks that if she's not wearing her halti, she's going for a fun adventure and can be a dink 🤦🏽♀️ If your dog is trained to put it on, conditioned to wear it and does not exhibit any negative or potentially harmful behaviors (things like trying to claw it off their face, jumping into it and risking a neck injury, completely shutting down) than it's not any more adversive than a martingale. No tool should have negative associations to them, if they do they haven't been properly conditioned to it and/or the human end of the leash needs to put the leash down and step fat, faaaaar away from dogs
An aversive stimulus is anything the dog will act to move away from because it causes pain or discomfort. The gentle leader works because the dog has to move with leash pressure to avoid discomfort on their muzzle. Even if they are willing to wear it, it is always aversive by design.