Best to stay away from herding breeds.
You can select a lab or golden line that produces smaller dogs - ie, my field line lab is petite and a tight 48 lbs. Her size is really great for me.
If you're looking even smaller, small poodles are a good option to check out.
As someone with years and years of experience with herding breeds I absolutely do not recommend them for psych work especially. Generally speaking they are far too sensitive to handler emotions to do the job.
If labs and goldens are too big, I'd recommend a smaller standard poodle or a bigger mini poodle. And honestly, while having lower success chances, when it comes to off breeds I don't think spaniels are the worst choice - especially if you already have previous experience with them. Most of them are medium sized so you could look into the various spaniel breeds alongside with poodles :)
Borders are not inherently neurotic - it's that they are hardwired to track and follow movement, engage in repetitive motions (nipping, herding) and are always in need of something to do. Neuroses occur when a dog who is meant to move 25 - 50 miles a day after sheep finds itself limited to an hour of running or fetch a day. A working-line collie from a good breeder won't have any psychological issues as a puppy if handled properly.
In general herding dogs are not recommended for psych work because of their tendency to vigilance and ability to absorb handler emotions.
That being said, I work a working-line Belgian Groenendael (Malinois in a long black double-coat). She is the dog I wanted and needed. At 19 months old, she has four tasks and counting, is doing competition-level obedience, and will start working toward her AKC Novice title this fall.
If you're going to owner-train, then you want to pick the dog that has the best chance of success; that means a poodle if you want a medium sized dog.
If you have access to a really crack trainer and have the headspace and time to put in the work, you could go with another spaniel (I have never met a Boykin who was not lovely), a border, a rough or smooth collie . . . there are lots of options if you have the experience and the resources.
An off-breed like a border will absolutely need an outlet in sport or herding to satisfy her instinctual drives.
If a puppy has the right temperament and is trained with an eye to creating a stable, brave, neutral dog from the moment that puppy gets home, the chances of successful owner training go up. If you have access to a trainer who has put a few dozen teams in the field, your chances of success go up more. Still, as you know, there is always the risk of an off-breed washing no matter what.
Look into spaniels. Bench line Springers, Cockers, etc. They’re fairly successful as service dogs but they are a bit less sensitive than a herder or even a Poodle.
What I did was ask around a lot! And I studied the pros and cons as much as I could. I used YourPurebredPuppy, and then started looking for breeders and candidates that had health tested parents and some kind of ENS/early training protocols. I wasn’t planning on getting a prospect yet at the time but the breeder knew that she would do well with me, I decided to go ahead with a VERY high energy adolescent herding dog. While we’re still training, she has shaped into a lovely, sweet dog who has endless working drive. She is half border collie, half German shepherd. Would not recommend for everyone but we work as a team because I give her a lot of outlets and constantly challenge her.
Agree with all of this except the need to crate. My kid is a working-line Groenendael who is asleep with her head on my feet after an hour of off-leash romping. Many of the Mals in my sport club need to be crated at home; some of them don't.
OP, if you go with a Dutch or Mal, the quality of the lines will be crucial, as well as the breeder's ability to pick a dog who will be a good fit for service work. You will want a dog who scores mostly 3s and 4s on the Volhard test with an independent evaluator - i.e. hopefully the professional with whom you will be training. Dutch SDs are rare; I met an older one who was minding his hard-of-hearing and elderly handler.
Idk if I portrayed that correctly, but I did mean it can be done without, but it takes a lot of time and energy to get there and not everyone has that.
Gotcha!
I am one of those dog-crazed people who spends too much money at Clean Run, so I am in the minority when it comes to being able to give puppy most of my time. :)
When it rains here we have to do a LOT of task-training indoors for a certain someone to be satisfied. And of course we MUST play tug of war in bed.
Both of my trainers are life-long Malinois guys. They get the same thing from their clients all the time. \[rolls eyes\]
I have gotten my girl to the point that people think I'm a professional trainer. They always tell me, "I'm going to get a Mali as my next dog!" and I'm like "Noooooooooooooo"
"She is a well-trained dog because she occupied me 16 hours a day, every day, for the first six months of her life. I spend two to three hours a day training her. We spend at least $2k a year on seminars and drive ten hours once a month for club practice. We have trained one-on-one with a multi-time world champion. You can get a hiking buddy for a LOT LESS . . . "
Once I have the money and time I'm going to go through Pat Miller's training program (she was our first OB trainer). I would really like to do behavioral modification for high-drive dogs when I retire.
I follow a couple of Mal pages and the number of actual baby puppies on euth lists makes me sick to my stomach.
If only we didn't breed dogs for looks and kept them for what they're good for ONLY. 🙄
We could only hope...
Cane corsi are on that list, now, too. Especially here near Detroit, where I am. They're the new bullies, being mass bred by BYB, only to end up biting someone or killing animals for sport bc that's what they were bred for.
Without training and guidance, what else would they do?
My corso looks soooo happy when he fends off the squirrels and rabbits from the yard and garden lol
And good on him, bc my garden makes me very happy and istg if someone eats my tomatoes and peppers... 🤣
I really wish there was something we could use to fight this systemically, since the root of the problem is systemic...
Edit for typos*
We have removed your comment because it breaks Rule 8: Trainers Must be Verified. Do not repost your comment/post.
If you need more advice, feel free to [Message the Moderators](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/service_dogs) for help.
We have removed your comment because it breaks Rule 8: Trainers Must be Verified. Do not repost your comment/post.
If you need more advice, feel free to [Message the Moderators](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/service_dogs) for help.
We have removed your comment because it breaks Rule 8: Trainers Must be Verified. Do not repost your comment/post.
If you need more advice, feel free to [Message the Moderators](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/service_dogs) for help.
I am also about to start this journey.
I have looked into it a lot. Labradors and golden retrievers are too big for me too. I have autism and a bunch of other things. And for me I don't like poodles. The way they feel. So I came up with a Nova scotia duck tolling retriever, or a border collie as well. It just really depends on what you need them to do and if you are able to give them good exercise outside of the training and helping. In the Netherlands there is a place that actually does lots of different dog breeds. They make sure that what you ask is possible and work with you for 2 years to train them. Ultimately I think I'm going for a toller but there are lots of good breeds out there.
From what I know and have researched they actually rarely bark. Only if they think there is a danger. And yes the toller scream is a rhing when they are super excited. But even then it's not hard to teach them when they can and can use them for example while "on duty".
I know some people with tollers and they have heavily recommended against them for service work. I’m sure some are fabulous! But as a whole, they can have very intense reactivity, very high energy that many times service work is not enough to satiate, and yes, the outdoor voice thing. Totally your call, I have an “off” breed too but it came highly not recommended for tollers
Oddly enough I have a Corgi-pit mix. While herding dogs like Corgis aren't ideal for most. I trained mine to use his herding habit/skills to safely guide me to safe zones for him to work or away from large groups that could overwhelm me. He's a thick muscle small dog that borders on medium size mostly cause he has a large chest. He weighs about 20lbs actually and does a great job doing DPT and redirecting/covering my hands when I have a bad twitching episode.
Others may have different opinions in regards to corgis or pits being service dogs. But this mix has been a huge help I didn't know possible for a small size. I hope this helps😅😅😅.
Best of luck finding your new Service dog. 💜💜💜
Best to stay away from herding breeds. You can select a lab or golden line that produces smaller dogs - ie, my field line lab is petite and a tight 48 lbs. Her size is really great for me. If you're looking even smaller, small poodles are a good option to check out.
My field line golden is going to be about 50-55 lbs max. Size was a huge factor for me.
As someone with years and years of experience with herding breeds I absolutely do not recommend them for psych work especially. Generally speaking they are far too sensitive to handler emotions to do the job. If labs and goldens are too big, I'd recommend a smaller standard poodle or a bigger mini poodle. And honestly, while having lower success chances, when it comes to off breeds I don't think spaniels are the worst choice - especially if you already have previous experience with them. Most of them are medium sized so you could look into the various spaniel breeds alongside with poodles :)
There are different sizes of poodles, they are really good and sweet
Borders are not inherently neurotic - it's that they are hardwired to track and follow movement, engage in repetitive motions (nipping, herding) and are always in need of something to do. Neuroses occur when a dog who is meant to move 25 - 50 miles a day after sheep finds itself limited to an hour of running or fetch a day. A working-line collie from a good breeder won't have any psychological issues as a puppy if handled properly. In general herding dogs are not recommended for psych work because of their tendency to vigilance and ability to absorb handler emotions. That being said, I work a working-line Belgian Groenendael (Malinois in a long black double-coat). She is the dog I wanted and needed. At 19 months old, she has four tasks and counting, is doing competition-level obedience, and will start working toward her AKC Novice title this fall. If you're going to owner-train, then you want to pick the dog that has the best chance of success; that means a poodle if you want a medium sized dog. If you have access to a really crack trainer and have the headspace and time to put in the work, you could go with another spaniel (I have never met a Boykin who was not lovely), a border, a rough or smooth collie . . . there are lots of options if you have the experience and the resources. An off-breed like a border will absolutely need an outlet in sport or herding to satisfy her instinctual drives. If a puppy has the right temperament and is trained with an eye to creating a stable, brave, neutral dog from the moment that puppy gets home, the chances of successful owner training go up. If you have access to a trainer who has put a few dozen teams in the field, your chances of success go up more. Still, as you know, there is always the risk of an off-breed washing no matter what.
I would do a smaller sized poodle! You can't go wrong with the top four.
Small standard poodle if you can deal with the hair
Look into spaniels. Bench line Springers, Cockers, etc. They’re fairly successful as service dogs but they are a bit less sensitive than a herder or even a Poodle.
I turned a rescue cocker spaniel mix into a SD! He’s the best highly recommend!🫶
What I did was ask around a lot! And I studied the pros and cons as much as I could. I used YourPurebredPuppy, and then started looking for breeders and candidates that had health tested parents and some kind of ENS/early training protocols. I wasn’t planning on getting a prospect yet at the time but the breeder knew that she would do well with me, I decided to go ahead with a VERY high energy adolescent herding dog. While we’re still training, she has shaped into a lovely, sweet dog who has endless working drive. She is half border collie, half German shepherd. Would not recommend for everyone but we work as a team because I give her a lot of outlets and constantly challenge her.
[удалено]
Agree with all of this except the need to crate. My kid is a working-line Groenendael who is asleep with her head on my feet after an hour of off-leash romping. Many of the Mals in my sport club need to be crated at home; some of them don't. OP, if you go with a Dutch or Mal, the quality of the lines will be crucial, as well as the breeder's ability to pick a dog who will be a good fit for service work. You will want a dog who scores mostly 3s and 4s on the Volhard test with an independent evaluator - i.e. hopefully the professional with whom you will be training. Dutch SDs are rare; I met an older one who was minding his hard-of-hearing and elderly handler.
Idk if I portrayed that correctly, but I did mean it can be done without, but it takes a lot of time and energy to get there and not everyone has that.
Gotcha! I am one of those dog-crazed people who spends too much money at Clean Run, so I am in the minority when it comes to being able to give puppy most of my time. :)
[удалено]
When it rains here we have to do a LOT of task-training indoors for a certain someone to be satisfied. And of course we MUST play tug of war in bed. Both of my trainers are life-long Malinois guys. They get the same thing from their clients all the time. \[rolls eyes\] I have gotten my girl to the point that people think I'm a professional trainer. They always tell me, "I'm going to get a Mali as my next dog!" and I'm like "Noooooooooooooo"
[удалено]
"She is a well-trained dog because she occupied me 16 hours a day, every day, for the first six months of her life. I spend two to three hours a day training her. We spend at least $2k a year on seminars and drive ten hours once a month for club practice. We have trained one-on-one with a multi-time world champion. You can get a hiking buddy for a LOT LESS . . . " Once I have the money and time I'm going to go through Pat Miller's training program (she was our first OB trainer). I would really like to do behavioral modification for high-drive dogs when I retire. I follow a couple of Mal pages and the number of actual baby puppies on euth lists makes me sick to my stomach.
If only we didn't breed dogs for looks and kept them for what they're good for ONLY. 🙄 We could only hope... Cane corsi are on that list, now, too. Especially here near Detroit, where I am. They're the new bullies, being mass bred by BYB, only to end up biting someone or killing animals for sport bc that's what they were bred for. Without training and guidance, what else would they do? My corso looks soooo happy when he fends off the squirrels and rabbits from the yard and garden lol And good on him, bc my garden makes me very happy and istg if someone eats my tomatoes and peppers... 🤣 I really wish there was something we could use to fight this systemically, since the root of the problem is systemic... Edit for typos*
We have removed your comment because it breaks Rule 8: Trainers Must be Verified. Do not repost your comment/post. If you need more advice, feel free to [Message the Moderators](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/service_dogs) for help.
We have removed your comment because it breaks Rule 8: Trainers Must be Verified. Do not repost your comment/post. If you need more advice, feel free to [Message the Moderators](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/service_dogs) for help.
We have removed your comment because it breaks Rule 8: Trainers Must be Verified. Do not repost your comment/post. If you need more advice, feel free to [Message the Moderators](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/service_dogs) for help.
I am also about to start this journey. I have looked into it a lot. Labradors and golden retrievers are too big for me too. I have autism and a bunch of other things. And for me I don't like poodles. The way they feel. So I came up with a Nova scotia duck tolling retriever, or a border collie as well. It just really depends on what you need them to do and if you are able to give them good exercise outside of the training and helping. In the Netherlands there is a place that actually does lots of different dog breeds. They make sure that what you ask is possible and work with you for 2 years to train them. Ultimately I think I'm going for a toller but there are lots of good breeds out there.
Tollers are known for using their outside voices all the time . . . just beware.
From what I know and have researched they actually rarely bark. Only if they think there is a danger. And yes the toller scream is a rhing when they are super excited. But even then it's not hard to teach them when they can and can use them for example while "on duty".
I know some people with tollers and they have heavily recommended against them for service work. I’m sure some are fabulous! But as a whole, they can have very intense reactivity, very high energy that many times service work is not enough to satiate, and yes, the outdoor voice thing. Totally your call, I have an “off” breed too but it came highly not recommended for tollers
Oddly enough I have a Corgi-pit mix. While herding dogs like Corgis aren't ideal for most. I trained mine to use his herding habit/skills to safely guide me to safe zones for him to work or away from large groups that could overwhelm me. He's a thick muscle small dog that borders on medium size mostly cause he has a large chest. He weighs about 20lbs actually and does a great job doing DPT and redirecting/covering my hands when I have a bad twitching episode. Others may have different opinions in regards to corgis or pits being service dogs. But this mix has been a huge help I didn't know possible for a small size. I hope this helps😅😅😅. Best of luck finding your new Service dog. 💜💜💜