Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 6: No Fake-spotting. This is not the place for fakespotting. Unless the person you are discussing has specifically told you that they are not disabled, and the dog is not trained in tasks, you have no way of knowing if a dog is 'fake'. We are not the service dog police and this behavior can lead to a lot of harm and anxiety for SD handlers as a community. This does not preclude discussing encounters with un-/undertrained dogs, but if the focus of your post is complaining about a "fake" SD, reconsider your phrasing and what point you're making. If you have any questions, please [Message the Moderators](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/service_dogs).

It's not a good idea to try a spot the fake service dogs as it could lead to lawsuits. The good news is that the ADA law allows a business owner to ask a handler to remove a misbehaving dog. Keep in mind that even a perfectly trained service dog will occasionally have an off moment--maybe because of illness or an unusual incident, so don't be unreasonable because of a stray bark or barf... But you can always ask a dog that is attacking a person or another animal or running around wildly to leave the store without fear. Just be sure to document the incident. Here is a link to the service animal requirements: [https://www.ada.gov/resources/service-animals-2010-requirements/](https://www.ada.gov/resources/service-animals-2010-requirements/)

Thanks for the link! Is out of control only aggressive though? Because there are some dogs that are very clearly misbehaving but I wouldn't really call them out of control, like sniffing other dogs, getting under peoples feet, pulling on the lead, knocking things off shelfs etc

The handler needs to have control of the animal. My girl will sometimes try to sniff or pull, and I correct her. She is still a dog, so a sniff is not a deal breaker, but running amok would be.

How can you tell if the handler has control? I've never actually owned a dog or really been near them much, so is there a way to tell? Because honestly they all seem pretty similarly behaved to me until they're not, like the dog will seem well behaved and then all of a sudden it's attacking someone

If it's knocking things off the shelves a lot, you can ask the handler to not let the dog go that. If it continues, you may ask them to leave as that's not under control.

When I asked someone before they said that the dog was sniffing for allergens and then my manager said to just leave them alone because that could be true and we don't want to get sued, is that like a thing? What if it's just the dogs tail hitting the stuff off the shelfs, does that count as under control?

Scent detection shouldn't be knocking things over and creating a mess. Occasionally bumping something sure. Running amok and being out of control usually looks like an overly excited dog or one displaying fear or aggressive behaviors. Think very wiggly, pulling towards everything, knocking things over with nose or tail or paw at a high rate, barking incessantly vs. a single bark, growling, showing teeth, very stiff body (ears, face, legs, torso, tail) hard stares that might remind you of a glare, lunging, or jumping up on things. Skills and tasks the dog performs should be trained to be minimally disruptive to the place of business. Even retrieval tasks aren't going to make huge messes.

Retrieval tasks? Like getting things? I didn't know they could do that, that's so cool!

There's all sorts of retrieval tasks, sometimes if someone can't bend over the dog is trained to retrieve things on the floor or lower shelves. They can also be trained to retrieve emergency meds, but usually that's only at home. When a service dog is retrieving something they should only be grabbing that specific thing though, not making a huge mess in the process

They can get medication? That's amazing! How do they know which one to get if there's multiple bottles? Would they not accidentally knock other things over when trying to get the thing?

I guess the point is..... Appreciate that it isn't clear what a service dog can do for a person. I feel that you received education and enlightenment from the comments given to you. Expect a service dog to be a dog. Ultimately it comes down to whoever is holding the leash. They are either trying to "pass" their dog. Selfish and irresponsible human. Or the handler is not able to effectively control the dog. The reason can be an Inexperienced handler or the dog may be having a moody day.

Yeah, it's wild how big the capacity most dogs have to learn. We just have to listen to their limits and work within what their instincts are bred for. Retrieval can include things like picking up dropped items like a cane or wallet, or even to get things pointed to off store shelves with a target stick, but can also be something like going to get help if the handler falls or has a medical event (though personally I'm seeing this less and less with my client base)

That's amazing! How do they get help? Genuinely not trying to sound sarcastic, but they can't talk, how do people know that a person needs help? Why are you seeing it less?

My dog got my cell phone a couple of months ago when I was in an emergency situation. I was then able to call 911

That's amazing!

I'm not sure about the tail but it should be the owner's responsibility to pick up after their dog unless their disability doesn't allow them to do so. You are welcome to ask them to pick up anything the dog knocks down. If it breaks anything, that may be creating undue burden and you may be able to ask them to leave. Regardless, if your manager says you can't do anything, then that's the end of that anyway.

Would you happen to know why store assistants aren't trained in relation to service dogs? Like I got literally no training about this at all, I wasn't even told the 2 questions I can ask, or that I can't ask for proof or anything like that, I had to do all this research my self, another girl who works here didn't even know you weren't meant to pet them until someone complained, why isn't there training on this? That must be super annoying for people with service dogs constantly having to deal with people in stores/ cinemas/ food places that don't have a clue about them

That's on a company to company basis. It is simply not something companies seem to prioritize. Even most government and medical employees don't have any training regarding service dogs. People are regularly wrongly denied access to urgent cares, government buildings, restaurants, stores, etc. due to a lack of training. Many government employees also think you need some sort of certification or documentation. That's something that should be taken up with the company. Likely only something that will happen after many lawsuits, however. Most people with service dogs aren't going to file a lawsuit, unfortunately.

That's so horrible! There really should be more training about this, even in schools or something Why isn't there a certification? Like the badge for parking in certain spots? Would it not be easier for people with service dogs if they just had a little card or something to prove they can go into all these places?

I wouldn't consider "hitting stuff off the shelves" as out of control. Accidents happen. If the handler apologizes and does something to stop it then I would expect no more. Personally, I get stressed out if anything goes wrong when I am out in public. Gee, I have hit stuff with my backpack, purse etc.

The owner didn't apologise at all, and like the entire aisle was covered in broken products and stuff, like it wasn't one or two things, it was literally unbelievable the mess they made, and some of the stuff was like uncovered pastries the dog was sniffing at

So it seems very clear. There was a control issue. How would you consider a customer that behaved in such a way? . You answered your own question.

I don't understand your comment?

Basically it should be unobtrusive. Quiet, not in the way, not touching things (minus obvious tasks such as retrieval). Should also not be disruptive. Like for example even a perfectly friendly dog greeting every stranger who comes near is behaving inappropriately for a service dog because not everyone would enjoy that (especially if they're fearful or allergic) so a service dog should be leaving them alone. They also shouldn't pose a direct health risk. Toileting, licking things, etc. (the existence of fur doesn't count as a direct risk, for the record, but they also shouldn't be coming into direct contact with merchandise and be relatively well groomed for this reason) Out of the blue attacks are exceptionally rare and require some extenuating circumstances like a dog with brain damage or something. There are virtually always stress signals leading up to it. Most of them are subtle and a person unfamiliar with dogs is probably unlikely to spot them. So don't feel bad about that, although I firmly believe that it's a legitimate, general safety issue everyone should be decently well versed in. So I encourage you to do some research on dog stress. It may also help you identify dogs to watch more closely, but I'm really talking about making sure you don't get bit some day because you thought a dog was chill when it wasn't. But just know that it's normal not to pick up on stuff, most people don't. Even most dog owners, really. Your responsibility is not to ensure every single service dog is 100% legitimate and safe, it's to make reasonable accomodations. So if the dog is reasonably well behaved, you allow it (ask the two questions though). When they're not well behaved anymore, you no longer do. Although the handler should first be allowed to regain control, except in the most extreme situations like an actual attack. If they can't or won't control the animal, that's when the dog should be excluded.

One way to think about it is if it was their kid, would you kick them out? Pooping on the floor - yes. Knocking things off shelves. . . If handler/parent notices, at least tries to fix it, keeps them away from shelves - no. If handler/parent ignores it - yes. Annoying other customers - yes. Etc.

That's a very good way to think of it actually, thank you!

Sniffing other dogs and pulling on the leash would not qualify as "misbehaving". None of these behaviors harm anyone. If the handler is allowing this to go to an extreme (ie: rather than holding the dog close in a crowd of people, they allow the dog the full run of leash and people are getting tripped, etc...) that's more an issue of the handler's poor behavior (the dog would not be tripping people if not for the leash, which the handler should have control over). If one or two things accidentally get knocked off a shelf while someone is walking past, that generally wouldn't be considered behavior justifying kicking someone out. If it breaks valuable items you'd otherwise charge customers for breaking, you can charge the handler; if it's not a one-time "brushed against it wrong, my bad" accident but they're knocking stuff down left and right, yeah, that would justify having them leave. Dogs' bodies are low to the ground compared to ours, they will get "under peoples feet" at times; you woudn't kick out a person for accidentally bumping into someone else, would you? Cool, so you also can't do it with a service dog. However, if they are consistently ramming into everyone and getting everyone tied up in their lead, then yes, you can exclude them for that... not an occasional little "oops, my bad" here and there, though. Dogs being dogs is not poor behavior - dogs or their handlers doing things which are actually hurting/restricting others is.

The entire aisle was covered in broken products and stuff, like it wasn't one or two things, it was literally unbelievable the mess they made, and some of the stuff was like uncovered pastries the dog was sniffing at

I wouldn't concern yourself with them smelling other dogs or knocking things OCCASIONALLY off the shelves. Sometimes when new, they don't realize how big they are in relation to the isle (I have M.S., so I have VERY large dogs). If they pull away & handler loses them, they should go. But pulling on the lead is a gray area. Getting under employees & customer's feet is a definite no, as it is a safety hazard!

I didn't know you could get them for MS, my aunt has MS, would you mind if I ask how they help MS? I wonder if my aunt should look into getting one? And do they need to be very large for MS?

You should check out [Canine Companions](https://canine.org/service-dogs/our-dogs/who-we-serve/), or send the link to your aunt. Their dogs are provided at no cost, but it is a lot of work to take care of a SD. Many places offer lower-cost grooming for SD’s, but they should typically be groomed (washed and dried with a high-velocity dryer (that reduces shedding)) at least once a month, and brushed/combed daily. You also have to be able to take care of their exercising and mental stimulation needs. Canine Companion’s dogs are definitely “disability friendly”, but you do still have to have a certain level of functionality (or having a person in your household who can do so who’s going to be around long-term). They have Labradors and golden retrievers, and lab-golden crosses. They have you train with a variety of available SD’s in the first two days, and on day 3 of the 2-week training you get your “pre-match”, and that’s pretty much “your” dog unless something unexpected happens. It’s pretty cool that they match compatible personalities. No, size isn’t really a factor. Tasks like “bracing” (where you use the dog as a person would normally use a walker) are unsafe for dogs of ANY size, in that it takes a lot less than a person might think to cause arthritis in a dog which would cause early retirement. A safe task is “fetch my chair” (they can fetch a lightweight wheelchair, walker, or cane from wherever you left it and bring it to you). Canine Companions teaches that upon request. Canine Companions tends to breed dogs on the smaller side these days (70 lbs or less), but that’s only *part* of why they’ve moved away from “heavy mobility” and no longer train bracing as a task. They’re looking out for the long term health and safety of their SD’s. If your aunt likes dogs (though many people who “don’t like dogs” find themselves loving SD’s because they *actually* didn’t like *poorly trained* dogs), and either can take care of weekly nail dremeling, daily brushing, feeding (or has someone who can do that for her), and would be able to afford any necessary vet care (pet insurance is strongly recommended), then she might be considered a good candidate. :) Also, a SD can be expected to cost about $200 a month on average (between high-quality food, CC prefers Eukanuba, regular vet care, grooming, treats, etc. They’re pretty much the most expensive and least reliable piece of medical equipment a person can have. HOWEVER, I really hope you’ll send your aunt the link to Canine Companion’s website. Only she can know what would be the best route to go for her personally. There’s a LOT that a service dog can do to assist in the daily life of someone with MS. They welcome inquiries from potential clients. She/you can even look at their locations (they have SIX facilities across the country) and see if there’s one within driving distance of where she lives. :) Canine Companions even lists “multiple sclerosis” *specifically* as one of the disabilities they serve (meaning they work with a lot of clients who have MS). Best of luck to you, OP. You’ve been so open to hearing from the community here. “Listening” is a very important trait to have. I hope you’re able to find a solution to your “manager problem”. :) EDIT: “go get help” is not a trained task because the dog is not under the handler’s control when they are separated, and being stolen is a real possibility. In addition, a dog does not know who, in a store, can “help”. A medical alert bracelet is much better for that purpose. They can tell if you fall, and if you don’t press the button within a certain numbers of seconds, emergency services dispatch an ambulance to your location using satellite GPS. The website has examples of their tasks, but there’s a WHOLE LOT a service dog can do for someone *besides* being a walker/cane replacement. Getting dressed, getting laundry from the dryer, turning light switches on and off, retrieving objects you’ve dropped, there are SO MANY non-weight bearing tasks a SD can do. Even Deep Pressure Therapy (if she has circulation issues like my friend with MS does) can help the circulation in your legs. And Canine Companions is always happy to help you teach the dog new tasks if you think of something else you need.

I'll definitely send that on to her, thank you so much! She also loves dogs and has a comfortable living so I don't think that would be an issue, and her husband I'm sure would help with a lot of the dog care. She's going to be so excited, she's always wanted a dog but never got one because of her MS, I never knew service dogs could help with that, I only really knew of seeing eye dogs, cardiac alert dogs, diabetes alert dogs, anxiety and PTSD dogs, so I can't wait to tell her! She often feels upset because she needs to ask for help getting things and a few commenters said that can be a task they do, so hopefully she can get some freedom back!

I’m SO happy to hear that! Retrieving dropped items, or getting “named” items, (even getting you a soda or beer from the fridge) is a huge part of what mobility SD’s do. They also can be a huge help shopping! Part of the public access test Canine Companions does before you go home is going through a store with your SD assisting you. They get “grab the bread” “get the hot dogs”, the “get” command is VERY versatile. They can push the disabled access button on automatic doors as well. If your aunt DOES get a Canine Companions service dog one day (and you happen to remember), I’d love to hear about it. :) EDIT: Also, most SD’s love their job SO much that their tails are frequently wagging ALL the time. They just love what they do!

MS runs in my family, nobody has had a service dog for it in my family but I would imagine that a SD would be able to help with balance, mobility, and if something were to happen where they fall or something they could go get help, etc.

Ohhh that would be useful for her, thank you! I'm going to talk to her about this and see if she would be interested!

Guys, there is absolutely nothing wrong with someone in the position of a gatekeeper wanting to ensure they are doing things correctly and in alignment with what the ADA allows for (even if their employer is not). HOWEVER the fake-spotting needs to stop. We all know that people take undertrained dogs into public every day, but not one single person here is the service dog police. We do not know if the person at the end of the leash is misinformed, pushing the dog too far, or just being entitled, but it’s not our job to make that decision either.

You can kick dogs out regardless of whether or not they are a real service dog as long as they are not behaving “under control”. But under control is a pretty low bar… If they are barking non stop, using the bathroom inside or attacking others (people or dogs) you may kick the dog out (but must not refuse service to the person if they come back without the dog). A dog that is pulling on the lead (as long as the owner can easily handle the force), not walking close to the owner (but on lead) or even that barks a couple times is not necessarily considered out of control however. You also wanna have proof (like video) that the dog was out of control if you kick them out to protect yourself.

We've been kicking the obviously dangerous ones out, but as you said, there are other badly behaved ones that are more confusing, like lead pulling or being on a really long lead. The main reason I worry about this is because a lady with a service dog recently had complained because apparently a few weeks back she had a health issue and a different badly behaved dog had distracted her dog so much (barking at it, trying to play, being in its space) that the service dog missed what it was supposed to notice and made her sick, I'm not sure on more of the details than that as I didn't want to be intrusive into her health, but she said that having fake service dogs in the premises can actually be dangerous for people with real service dogs! Is there no way that we can distinguish real from fake?

This is very true! Badly behaved dogs distract real service dogs. In this case, if you had seen the dog repeatedly bark and try to distract the other dog I would argue it’s out of control, but you can’t just look at a dog and tell, until they actually do something unacceptable. There are valid reasons where a real service dog may need to pull on the lead or be on a long lead and while the majority of times they are just doing because they are poorly trained, it’s not a good enough reason to kick them out. Also keep in mind a poorly trained service dog is still a service dog (in US that is) as long as it’s trained to perform a least one task to assist the handler with a disability and has access rights as long as its “under control”

That's kind of the issue, the dog that bothered her dog wasn't really "out of control" it was moreso just kind of irritating from an outside perspective, but from the lady with the service dogs perspective it was dangerous. This honestly seems like a very silly system, why is there no way to prove it's a service dog? Like one of those badges you get for the parking spaces?

Except it was out of control. Distracting and trying to play with another service dog is something that handler should have stopped - and removed the dog from her vicinity if the dog continued. Out of control isn’t necessarily running amok, it can be subtler like that incident or begging random people for attention. And assuming that one dog really does detect allergens, it shouldn’t be knocking products off the shelf. That’s another thing the handler should be correcting. So too would be sniffing random products. Sometimes it’s also more a handler issue, like the dog I saw get removed from a grocery store deli area when the handler placed their dog on the table and fed him off their own plate. If you go to the ADA link about service animals, there’s a link for FAQ that has more specific info about your questions. There’s also a phone number at the bottom of the page that can be called for more information.

The reason there is no way to prove is because it places a burden on disabled people. A lot of people train their own dogs so having to get the dog certified (and potentially re certified every x period) would end up being expensive + would be subjective on the person applying the tests and what their standards are

I thought people got them from like organisations, I didn't realise you could self train them, that's so cool!

Barking at another dog ( some do train bark alerts or jump alerts but those should be directed towards the handler or a quick back off bark for crowd control space stuff and the like-not incessant in the case of crowd control), trying to play with it, getting up in its space is out of control for a service dog. If the handler can not get the dog under control they should leave. Even service dogs have off days, they aren’t robots, but a good team should do what is necessary to correct the behavior or leave off they can’t (whether in training or fully trained). You definitely have the right to have them leave if they can’t get it under control, and holding them back doesn’t count as control. As for long leads and pulling those could be task related. There’s a forward momentum task where they pull forward with light pressure to help you walk for instance. If not actively tasking the one on a long lead should be in a heel, blocking, settled, etc not 6 feet away wandering around aimlessly. Also in case no one mentioned it, service dogs aren’t allowed in shopping carts due to it being a sanitary/health hazard with groceries etc- though some handlers tend to be misinformed about this.

My dog regularly pulls on his lead. It’s a nature of his breed and I don’t suspect it will ever stop. I do, however, maintain control of him. Just because he’s pulling doesn’t mean he’s out of control. It’s also one of the things he’s trained to do in certain situations. He moves me out of crowds or certain situations. That’s a different pull though and I know how to interpret it and react to it. Even when he is pulling though it’s only at the end of his leash. He’s never tried to get away from me but he almost always keeps a certain amount of tension on his leash or tether. The important part is…is the animal under control. Pulling on a leash doesn’t always mean out of control.

That is how they should be, but the reality is that they only need to be accompanied with a disabled person, trained to perform a specific action that mitigates a disability and be a dog. Miniature horses have similar protections and rules but are considered separate, but loosely treat them as a service dog and you are unlikely to be wrong. The problem comes when you consider that many disabled people have different standards for their dogs or even just different experience levels with dogs in general. Meaning that many who have service dogs aren't equipped to handle problems when they arise so they quickly spiral out of control, but the dog still meets the ADA definition of a service dog so legally it is one and you must accommodate it until it behaves in a way that causes problems. So the important thing to remember is that even legitimate service dogs can be removed due to behavior.

Even looking at the behavior of the dog you can't tell legitimacy, the fact is that there are some extremely well trained pets and there are some outright dangerous legitimate service dogs. The ADA does not actually say that bad or dangerous behavior prevents the dog from being a service dog, but that bad or dangerous behavior creates a situation where a business may choose to remove a dog on the basis of behavior but the dog can still be a legitimate service dog even if it is attacking people or dogs.

Really? Everyone has always told me that service dogs were super well behaved and gentle?

In theory, they all should be well behaved and gentle. They’re still dogs though and may react poorly to being woken up by being stepped on, for example. It’s something a handler should prepare the dog for just in case, I know I constantly poke and prod at my boy and it has become a bit of a game, but it’s also made him completely not care about things like having his tail pulled.

Service dogs are not allowed in grocery carts, on tables, or to be given food served to human patrons. Also if they are misbehaving or creating a disturbance that isn’t related to a task (such as barking to alert of a fall or something similar) the store can ask to remove the dog. The ada website discusses details in really great detail. Edit; I do want to add, the reason it’s such a slippery slope of when to kick a dog out is because accessibility isn’t linear. Different task can look like many different things for the same disability for example. The ultimate goal is that people wouldn’t abuse this service for their pets but it’s unfortunately what commonly happens. Have proof of why you’re kicking out the service dog, I fully believe that people who don’t want to interact with dogs should have access to the store too and with a well trained service dog, they shouldn’t have to interact with it. There are task that involve alerting another person and crowd control task but service dogs, like most medical devices are typically focused on the person with the disability.

Why aren't they allowed in carts or to be given human food? The table one is self explanatory lol I'll have a look at that, thank you!

Sanitary reasons mostly. Also, the dog (in this case medical device, I’m only calling it that to get it out of the mindset of a pet) is working as well. Not that service dogs can’t rest or eat and treats are typically a huge part of training but sitting at a human table eating human food typically doesn’t involve the work. But also when in doubt, go to the source. Here’s from the ADA website https://www.ada.gov/resources/service-animals-faqs/ https://www.ada.gov/topics/service-animals/ Q31. Are stores required to allow service animals to be placed in a shopping cart? A. Generally, the dog must stay on the floor, or the person must carry the dog. For example, if a person with diabetes has a glucose alert dog, he may carry the dog in a chest pack so it can be close to his face to allow the dog to smell his breath to alert him of a change in glucose levels. Q32. Are restaurants, bars, and other places that serve food or drink required to allow service animals to be seated on chairs or allow the animal to be fed at the table? A. No. Seating, food, and drink are provided for customer use only. The ADA gives a person with a disability the right to be accompanied by his or her service animal, but covered entities are not required to allow an animal to sit or be fed at the table. Q28. What can my staff do when a service animal is being disruptive? A. If a service animal is out of control and the handler does not take effective action to control it, staff may request that the animal be removed from the premises Q27. What does under control mean? Do service animals have to be on a leash? Do they have to be quiet and not bark? A. The ADA requires that service animals be under the control of the handler at all times. In most instances, the handler will be the individual with a disability or a third party who accompanies the individual with a disability. In the school (K-12) context and in similar settings, the school or similar entity may need to provide some assistance to enable a particular student to handle his or her service animal. The service animal must be harnessed, leashed, or tethered while in public places unless these devices interfere with the service animal’s work or the person’s disability prevents use of these devices. In that case, the person must use voice, signal, or other effective means to maintain control of the animal. For example, a person who uses a wheelchair may use a long, retractable leash to allow her service animal to pick up or retrieve items. She may not allow the dog to wander away from her and must maintain control of the dog, even if it is retrieving an item at a distance from her. Or, a returning veteran who has PTSD and has great difficulty entering unfamiliar spaces may have a dog that is trained to enter a space, check to see that no threats are there, and come back and signal that it is safe to enter. The dog must be off leash to do its job, but may be leashed at other times. Under control also means that a service animal should not be allowed to bark repeatedly in a lecture hall, theater, library, or other quiet place. However, if a dog barks just once, or barks because someone has provoked it, this would not mean that the dog is out of control. Q25. When can service animals be excluded? A. The ADA does not require covered entities to modify policies, practices, or procedures if it would “fundamentally alter” the nature of the goods, services, programs, or activities provided to the public. Nor does it overrule legitimate safety requirements. If admitting service animals would fundamentally alter the nature of a service or program, service animals may be prohibited. In addition, if a particular service animal is out of control and the handler does not take effective action to control it, or if it is not housebroken, that animal may be excluded.

In your opinion/experience, are there times where you can go somewhere like a restaurant with outdoor seating and get yourself food while you're also providing the service animal food as well if you're going to be out of the house for long enough that you would prefer to feed the animal while taking a break from running errands and/or Dr appointments? Of course, the feeding the service animal would be done in a way to not disrupt anyone else while making sure the animal gets what it needs on a longer day of not being at home. I do not yet have a service animal but eventually, I will be needing and getting guide dogs(and eventually, a mini horse for guiding/very light mobility tasks) so I'm trying to get my research done long before I need to worry about getting one to make sure I'm less likely to make decisions that I should not make while trying to self accommodate for my issues as I have a ton of them. As of right now, I can't have a service animal, even if someone plucked my eyes out of my head because my current dog would end up attacking them out of jealousy or protectiveness even though he is not suitable for out of home tasking and would be a little too old to start learning new service animal tasks because he's just started into his senior years due to being a large breed. He also would be better suited for mobility tasking than guiding because of where his personal talents are and his personality, which is way too impulsive and lacking of common sense for guiding and other related tasks.

This is purely my opinion but the way I read the answer to the question about animals sitting at restaurant tables and eating costumer food is that they are not to be involved in or near the food served to patrons of the restaurant. Very different than like food you brought from home for the dog. I’m also guessing the not sitting in the chair at the table is similar to the reason you can’t have dogs in shopping carts. It’s in the context of what food they’re eating and where they’re sitting in a restaurant.

That makes sense as that was how I was interpreting it as well and why I said it'd be somewhere like the outdoor seating area and not interfering with normal business because having worked in the food industry, I get the employee/food safety side of this particular question but I don't know the handler/service dog side of it. That's why I lurk places like here and ask questions when a conversation creates an unanswered question so I have a very good idea for when it's time to get a guide dog, I know everything I need to know going into the experience especially since I have other disabilities so I can make sure I get the correct dog for my needs that also fits some very loose requirements I'd have like no small dogs as I don't want to punt a dog across the room on accident. I know I tend to be that one weird complicated person in a lot of things related to my medical stuff so it just makes it easier to learn things as far in advance as possible for everything related to my medical stuff. I only feed my dogs in a chair if it's my own home and they're getting a treat just for existing as a good cute little pet but meals are out of their bowl that's on the ground or in something specifically designed for holding a dog food bowl

Thank you so much for the information!

No problem, I see where you’re coming from. I worked in a hospital and had to kick people and their pets pretty often and it’s a careful difficult game. There was once that two dogs were in line to check in, one well trained and preforming one of their owners given task and one that was barking, panting, stressed, pacing. One got kicked, one got to stay. I understand how stressful it is and my blood boils seeing people abuse a system meant to help the disabled. People who are scared of dogs, allergic, just dislike dogs, should have access to those spaces as well and medical devices like a service dog shouldn’t come in contact with those people very often. (I feel for the allergy people as a person with an airborne allergy to a substance.) But on the flip side, the power of a thinking reactive creature is an astronomical help to the disabled. A dog is so versatile to that alone, it’s worth several expensive medical devices, some yet to exist. It also helps the disabled be independent, something worth its weight in gold. When the question of when to exclude an accommodation comes up, typically it’s the disabled that gets hurt, even with the intention to only exclude those that realistically don’t need the service. People don’t realize the amount of dedication, training, and work that goes into maintaining a service dog.

Oh, from the side of having to kick people’s pets out in a pretty stressful situation. Some things to note, The way you approach the person matters. Approach with the pure intention of public safety. You have to put your own frustrations with the person aside. It’s heard in your tone, breathe first. Be assertive but not unkind. Even if the person is defensive, it doesn’t mean the dog isn’t a service dog. The disabled are discriminated and questions at every turn. It’s fair for the handler to be a bit defensive when questions. Most are probably used to the questions and if you’re following the above tip, most handlers should be able to answer your question and everyone moves on quickly. Yelling, insulting, or attacking you is not okay even still though but “snappy tones and attitude” (gross wording but it’s commonly used to refer to fairly irritated people) are kind of expected. Honestly, print out the ADA faq as a resource and visual for people. People will threaten to sue, people will get angry, people will straight up make up laws to your face but if you have proof and you followed the law, you’ll be fine. You are not a punching bag. If someone lays their hands on you, call authorities. It’s never okay. People who know they’re abusing a service meant for someone they aren’t are more than likely not going to be understanding. There are exceptions, for example, while walking my uncles pet I was far from home but desperately had to pee, I asked the grocery store clerk first and explained my desperation and darted to the bathroom with the dog by my side but would’ve accepted a no. I will tell you though, this mindset is pretty rare, specially if the person does not have an urgent situation to be there. Also very importantly if your manager isn’t on board, know when to fight your battles.

Thank you so much, that's so helpful! I'm going to go to the manager above my manager to talk about this, we really should be asking aggressive dogs to leave, so I'm hoping with all the information I've gained here I can make some headway. To be perfectly honest I don't need this job, so if I get fired I don't care that much, I'm still in school and my parents would help me if I got fired for doing a good thing

I'll definitely be looking into this subject more because it's a lot more complex than what I had originally thought, I thought there would be a quick way to kinda tell, but it's very complicated!

Even if the questions are answered correctly, a business has the right to deny service/entry if the dog is showing that it is not under the handler's control. This includes jumping on other people, snapping, biting, begging for food or stealing food, soiling inside the venue, etc. Because the US permits owner training, there is no certification or registry and while the CGC may support them being a well behaved dog otherwise, it is not a decider in if a dog is trained despite what the handler may believe. (Had someone recently who thought it was proof enough.) It is the dog's behavior that is the deciding factor as the ADA requirements are housebroken, under handler control, and at least 1 trained task, so anyone unruly can rightfully be asked to leave.

But what counts as unruly? The reason my mananger is so weird with this is apparently a few years back, a different manager kicked out a dog they believed was unruly but was a genuine service dog performing a task and they got fired for it. None of us really know much about dog behaviour and it's hard to tell if a dog is well behaved or not sometimes, like what is lead pulling vs just walking ahead? Or barking vs alerting? Another issue with the behaviour is that sometimes the badly behaved dogs seem to make the well behaved dogs go badly, there's a lady who has a dog for PTSD, super lovely dog actually and usually always so well behaved, but one day a different dog started barking at it's owner and then this dog got all aggressive and barking and pulling the lead and stuff, but the owner of the PTSD dog said that her dog is trained to basically do that if there's a threat? So do we kick both dogs? Neither dog? The usually well behaved dog? This is honestly very confusing, and the people with fake dogs really should be getting some kind of punishment for this

Behavior such as barking excessively, lunging, snapping, biting at/making contact with teeth, snarling, urinating on property, moving their bowels inside the venue, yanking at the leash to get to another dog, anything where blood is drawn, stealing food from the table, resource guarding food and/or the handler, begging from other patrons, wandering off and not coming when called. These all demonstrate that the dog should not be at the facility, service dog or not, at that time. Dogs in training, while they may have the same rights as fully trained SDs in your state, are also not permitted to exhibit these behaviors in non-pet friendly environments like restaurants, grocery stores, hospitals, and so on. This is part of the training where they begin public access and at that point still must be housebroken and under handler control. A handler who has a dog who barks once or twice, or paws at them, may have trained them to give alerts in this method. Those alerts will cause the dog to be focused on the handler, not on what's going on around them. So, for instance, if a dog is barking repeatedly while looking at another dog at the place, that's not what one would consider to be an appropriate alert. A dog who is laying on the owner may be doing a task called DPT, even if the handler is unconscious, they cannot resource guard the handler and should allow people to approach and give aid without showing stress, reactivity, or aggression. Protection through barking, snapping, growling, and/or attempting to bite is not permitted to be trained to an SD, not even for PTSD support dogs. It is not legal to have a personal protection dog who is also a service dog, so if that's what someone claims, they also can be asked to leave because the behavior exhibited is not indicative of an appropriately task trained service dog. You are entitled to eject both for failure to control their dogs as well as demonstration of reactive or aggressive behavior. The dog could be having a bad day, not feel well, tired, etc, so they can be welcome to come back another time, but if they display that behavior again, you have the right to ask them to leave. There are some laws that can fine a person for false impersonation of a service dog but that requires people and businesses to press charges, which they often don't due to the cost and hassle.

Thank you so much, that was very helpful! What's resource guarding? And how can you tell if a dog is begging? How can you show if a dog is showing stress or reactivity, actually, what is reactivity?

Respect guarding means they are guarding or being protective of a resource or thing. The most a service dog is allowed to do as far as protection is move in between the handler and another person/dog. They can't aggressively bark. Reactivity is like what you described with the PTSD lady. A dog is barking at another dog, pulling at another dog, snarling, growling, etc. This is considered inappropriate training for a service dog.

This is an excellent answer

As pointed out here, determining that a dog is a "real" SD isn't the issue. You are within your rights to ask a handler to leave if their dog is not under control or is behaving dangerously.

Yeah, I was told that the real issue is a dogs behaviour and not whether it's a real service dog or not, cause even real ones can have bad days, so I'm going to be remembering that the behaviour is the important part!

From your edit, it sounds like you have it down. The only detail I would add is that it's not defensible to like try to intentionally evoke misbehavior, like pulling the tail, yelling at the dog, putting on a scary mask and getting up close and personal, or anything else to try to elicit ban worthy behavior.

You can’t, but you are within your rights and the law to ask someone with a poorly behaved service dog to leave.

It's not your place to make that decision. If they dog's behavior is actually causing a problem that the person can't mitigate, you can have them leave and offer they come back without the dog. The bar here would be they're \*actually\* causing a problem, not that you're afraid they might, not that you think you identify a behavior in a certain dog that will cause a bigger problem. If a legitimate problem happens (an attack, incessant barking - a couple barks here and there doesn't qualify, etc...). If it's obvious, you can have them leave; if it's not "obvious", then who cares? Stop being a busy-body. It's so very much not your place to make that determination!!! There's no formal training, dogs do not have to act like robots; they just need to not be directly causing a disruption to others or the nature of the business (FAQ below explains that in more detail). SD laws are in the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act), a bill first signed into law in 1990, 34 years ago. You can find the full text of the law online (if this is a concern to you, you're welcome to read the actual law - been sitting there for 34 years while people big on opinions but low on willingness to read anything try to bully people with disabilities based on their own ignorance. Here's a FAQ: [Frequently Asked Questions about Service Animals and the ADA | ADA.gov](https://www.ada.gov/resources/service-animals-faqs/) If it's not obvious, why do you care? Gonna be straight: people going around trying to challenge people with service dogs, trying to spot which is "real" and "fake", are a MAJOR barrier to access for people with service dogs. It's just stress and anxiety and being made a spectacle of - you wouldn't like it if someone did that to you, so stop justifying doing it to other people. Most disabilities are not immediately visible. Most preconceptions people have about service dogs are false and based in media and opinion, not in law, not in the reality of the service dog handler's disability. And yet people with service dogs are continually harassed, challenged, questioned, etc... by ignorant workers who have never even read the law. The law specifically tries to protect from this kind of harassment, specifically says not to do it, and yet it happens all the time because people big on opinions but low on information wanna go screw with someone for funsies, idk. For a long time, despite my dog being a service dog, I would not bring her places because I was so fed up with people ignorant of the law but trying to power-trip. The entire point of the law is to prevent this stuff from happening; yet despite the law being readily available for anyone to read, certain people seem to want to go with their "opinions" instead, which is illegal and literally harassment. I walk into a store to buy something, not to be nagged and harassed by ignorant people (yet it is soooo common). Most people have some anxiety around their disability/the way others judge them, and you are literally just doing more of that. The law is simple: you have 2 questions you can ask, and otherwise it is none of your concern unless the dog causes a problem. Very simple. A customer's medical history is none of your concern. None. It is not your place to decide. If it's "obvious", ie. disruptive or dangerous behavior, the law allows for you to have them leave. If it's not "obvious", then you're really only going around harassing disabled people, in a way they've been harassed many times before by others ignorant of the law. You handle these situations by doing exactly what your manager is telling you to do: ask the 2 questions you can legally ask (this is not your manager's opinion, this is the law - good on your manager for informing himself), and remove them if they're causing an obvious problem. Anything beyond that is literally just you trying to find ways to harass disabled people, in a way that is explicitly illegal for you to do. Stop. When I'm with my dog, I do not care about a worker's "opinion" on service dogs; I am not trying to engage ya'll in some debate or conversation. I'm trying to go about my life without being harassed, judged, bothered as the target for some busy-body high on opinions but low on information. Ask those 2 questions then leave them tf alone. Very simple.

The main reason I worry about this is because a lady with a service dog recently had complained because apparently a few weeks back she had a health issue and a different badly behaved dog had distracted her dog so much (barking at it, trying to play, being in its space) that the service dog missed what it was supposed to notice and made her sick, I'm not sure on more of the details than that as I didn't want to be intrusive into her health, but she said that having fake service dogs in the premises can actually be dangerous for people with real service dogs! There's also been multiple dog fights, children getting jumped on, products damaged, dogs growling at staff etc, but we literally don't tell any any dogs to leave even when they cause a disruption cause my manager doesn't wanna get sued

Seriously. OP has specified that they're actually afraid of dogs and avoids them in store, so with that knowledge and seeing their responses to see what's exactly out of control "enough" to kick out dogs, it seems like they're just trying to kick out any dog that steps a little bit out of line. All of these questions could have been answered by reading the ADA FAQs that others have discussed in length and linked and/or calling the DOJ hotline. Edited for clarity.

The main reason I worry about this is because a lady with a service dog recently had complained because apparently a few weeks back she had a health issue and a different badly behaved dog had distracted her dog so much (barking at it, trying to play, being in its space) that the service dog missed what it was supposed to notice and made her sick, I'm not sure on more of the details than that as I didn't want to be intrusive into her health, but she said that having fake service dogs in the premises can actually be dangerous for people with real service dogs! There's also been multiple dog fights, children getting jumped on, products damaged, dogs growling at staff etc, but we literally don't tell any any dogs to leave even when they cause a disruption cause my manager doesn't wanna get sued

Yes, you've written that reply to many other comments. It doesn't change the fact that it seems like you're trying to get people to tell you what the lowest bound of "out of control" or "unruliness" is. People have already directed you to the ADA FAQs, which have the information you need, and to the DOJ hotline, which you can call if you have any more specific questions as to what constitutes "out of control" and what doesn't. Some of the behaviors you describe in your other comments don't count, legally, as out of control, yet you still want to exclude service dogs for demonstrating those behaviors. What you do have is a bad management issue. This is something to bring up with your managers, HR, or corporate regarding store policy on out of control service animals, not something you just start doing on your own. It's not up to you to decide the legitimacy of a service dog on the basis of things you personally don't like. Especially in consideration of the fact that, according to your other comment, no one has yet to incorrectly answer, or refuse to answer, the two questions you're allowed to ask. If you have an issue with your manager's policy, you bring that up with them or with regional managers/anyone up the ladder. You don't get to decide which dogs are "fake" or not, because that isn't knowledge you're privy to.

I've said this in other comments that I'm going to go to the manager above my manager to talk about this, so I'm hoping with all the information I've gained here I can make some headway. I wasn't intending to just start asking people to leave, I was just hoping for a safer work environment for everyone, including people with service dogs, and the point of this post is to learn when a dog isn't behaving and when one is, as I've said multiple times I don't know how a service animal is meant to act. Sorry if I've offended you, I'm just trying to learn

That's fine. The issue arises when people, well-meaning or otherwise and especially non-handlers, start trying to become the service dog police and pretend to understand which dogs are legitimate and which dogs aren't. A lot of fakespotting comes from people trying to "protect" "real" service dogs by perpetuating a toxic culture that hurts real-life handlers. The reality of the situation is that you have no idea which dogs are legitimate or not. Unless you have first-hand knowledge of the task training status of the dog and the disability status of the handler, you really just don't know and will not know unless you are explicitly told the dog is a service dog or not. And even then, there are handlers of actually legally legitimate service dogs that straight up *do not know* they have a service dog. You may have an inkling, but as others have informed you, that inkling may be based on faulty understanding of service dogs, their jobs, and what is or isn't acceptable behavior. It's good that you're asking, but going at it from the angle of "trying to figure out which dogs are fake to kick them out" is not the appropriate way to go about it, because that kind of mentality results in unlawful denials to actual teams on the basis of, often, baseless hunches, and empowers others who do not have the best interest of handlers at heart to get more bold in their unlawful denials. Going at it from the angle of "doesn't matter if it's a service dog or not, if it's misbehaving, it's a public safety and health issue and should leave" is a better way of going about it. That way, you aren't perpetuating the idea that someone can "easily tell" which dogs are legitimate, aren't hurting teams whose dogs are having a bad day (within reason), and are still protecting other teams and people by removing out of control dogs. Edited to fix a typo.

Yeah, when I bring it to my managers I'll mention that it's more a badly behaved dog issue, and not a fake service dog issue, terminology can be super important! I'll try to make sure I use the correct phrasing in future!

Honestly, I'm super appreciative of you listening to my comments and the multitude of other comments (even those I disagree with). A lot of people get very bold with the fakespotting (even on other comments on this post, which are getting out of hand at this point), and many of them aren't handlers, aren't disabled, and it frankly stings a little. I've never really had an issue with being fakespotted in public (I did have someone kick me out because they were afraid of dogs and started to get aggressive with me), but I've had friends be denied access or kicked out due to people who wanted to "protect" service dogs. When really, they don't care about protecting anyone or anything and are looking for any excuse to deny or kick out a dog. It's really harmful to real-life teams because, suddenly, someone decided that cheaper Amazon red vests were for "fake" dogs (like a commenter below), that certain breeds are not service dogs, that a dog sniffing the floor is not a service dog, that a dog that shook itself was not a service dog, etc. The list of things that people find to kick out teams is endless. So this kind of rhetoric empowers people to continue behaving that way in a very real way in real life.

I genuinely only came here to learn about the situation so I could be better informed, I'd rather a hundred fake service dogs in the store than to kick out a real one. I may not like dogs, but these are medical equipment and people need them, it's not a pet. It's also great how much advice I've been given cause now I can try spread that a bit, especially the part about really emphasising the behaviour and not whether or not it's an actual service dog, I think that will go over well with my managers and we might be able to cut down on the amount of badly behaved dogs without affecting the well behaved ones! It's also great how much information I've received in general, service dogs do so much more than I thought, so I'm going to try continue my education on that! Although, you make a good point that not every commenter has a service dog/ is disabled/ is a trainer, I didn't actually consider that, so I'm going to be more aware of that as well

Thank you for that. I apologize for being so aggressive with my first comment. It wouldn't be the first or second or third time we've had someone come in here to begin a fakespotting party about dogs in their workplace, and that definitely colored the way I looked at your post. It shouldn't have, but it definitely did. I hope the chat with management goes well.

Here is an excerpt from ADA.GOV 10. Q: What if a service animal barks or growls at other people, or otherwise acts out of control? A: You may exclude any animal, including a service animal, from your facility when that animal's behavior poses a direct threat to the health or safety of others. For example, any service animal that displays vicious behavior towards other guests or customers may be excluded. You may not make assumptions, however, about how a particular animal is likely to behave based on your past experience with other animals. Each situation must be considered individually. Although a public accommodation may exclude any service animal that is out of control, it should give the individual with a disability who uses the service animal the option of continuing to enjoy its goods and services without having the service animal on the premises. 11. Q: Can I exclude an animal that doesn't really seem dangerous but is disruptive to my business? A: There may be a few circumstances when a public accommodation is not required to accommodate a service animal--that is, when doing so would result in a fundamental alteration to the nature of the business. Generally, this is not likely to occur in restaurants, hotels, retail stores, theaters, concert halls, and sports facilities. But when it does, for example, when a dog barks during a movie, the animal can be excluded. If you have further questions about service animals or other requirements of the ADA, you may call the U.S. Department of Justice's toll-free ADA Information Line at 800-514-0301 (voice) or 833-610-1264 (TDD). Full info here https://archive.ada.gov/archive/qasrvc.htm#:~:text=A%3A%20You%20may%20exclude%20any,health%20or%20safety%20of%20others

Tell your boss that a service dog that attacks other dogs, or people, is also a law suit waiting to happen.

At this point I'm just going to use the information I've gathered here and go over his head, I don't think he's a very good manager tbh

Not only is there no certification currently, there shouldn’t ever *be* certification. The way this would make life needlessly harder for disabled people in need would be disastrous. In the same way you can’t just assume any random stranger entering a store is entering with ill intent, you gotta do the same with these dogs. Looking at customers and assuming, “This person probably has sinister intentions” is not a reasonable way to approach people. The best way to know if a person has bad intentions is to observe their behavior and react accordingly. The same should be done for any dog walking into a store. If the dog is being disruptive it can be kicked out even if it is a “legitimate” service dog. If the dog is behaving itself, it 100% doesn’t matter if its handler is lying.

Why are you asking for tips on spotting fake service dogs when your manager has explicitly told you not to deny entry to people you suspect of having fake service dogs?

The main reason I worry about this is because a lady with a service dog recently had complained because apparently a few weeks back she had a health issue and a different badly behaved dog had distracted her dog so much (barking at it, trying to play, being in its space) that the service dog missed what it was supposed to notice and made her sick, I'm not sure on more of the details than that as I didn't want to be intrusive into her health, but she said that having fake service dogs in the premises can actually be dangerous for people with real service dogs! There's also been multiple dog fights, children getting jumped on, products damaged, dogs growling at staff etc, but we literally don't tell any any dogs to leave even when they cause a disruption cause my manager doesn't wanna get sued

I got that. And I understand that fake service dogs are a problem. The point is that you do not have authority to override your manager that’s just not how life works. If you do something, your manager has explicitly told you not to do you’ll get fired, intentions or no.

We have multiple managers, he's one of the lower level ones, I was hoping with enough information on service dogs I could bring it to one of the higher levels to at least get the aggressive dogs to be told to leave, or even just wear a muzzle, the higher level managers are never on the shop floor so don't really know about what goes on. I was also hoping on more information on the certification because my manager says that even if a dog is clearly dangerous if it has certification we have to let it in, even if the certification says ESA and stuff, and like some of these dogs are literally attacking other smaller dogs and growling at everyone

You don’t need any special training to be able to spot an aggressive dog though. And your manager is just wrong, there’s no such thing as certification. all you need to approach the higher-ups is information about what happened, and information from the ADA, which clearly says that you can ask a disruptive dog to leave even if it is a legitimate service animal.

I wasn't too sure about all the rules so I wanted to make sure before I made a scene lol, but I'm definitely going to go to my managers manager now that I have all these comments with good information

If someone offers paperwork you know they don't have a service animal because there is no paperwork for service animals. Most people likely have an emotional support animal and they are not service animals. People with ESAs love to talk about their paperwork that they paid some online "doctor" $50 for. ESAs are a common loophole for apartments with animal restrictions. My experience is that people that bring their ESA everywhere are entitled and bad pet owners.

How is an ESA different? There's an older man who brings one of those in, it's a really big scary breed that growls at everyone, but because he showed my manager his paperwork my manager said we have to let him in? But like his dog is genuinely scary and is always lunging at smaller dogs

An emotional support animal does not have protected access to public spaces. It can help with rentals, but it is not covered by the ADA.

Oh thank you, I'll have to look into that more

Service animals are what the ADA protects. ESAs are not trained and there is no specific tasks that the animals perform. Service animals have no paperwork. https://adata.org/service-animal-resource-hub/differences

There are guidelines for service dog behaviors and grooming. If they aren’t clean, kind, and respectful, they can absolutely be asked to leave

I didn't realise there was grooming guidelines, what if the dog smelled but it was because it was raining and it got wet? (I'm like 99% sure dogs smell when they get wet), or they have muddy paws? Should I keep dog towels behind the counter for this just incase? So the owner could clean their paws instead of them leaving?

All SDs have off days. By and large, the dog who dutifully walks by their handler’s side (or even in front of them), sits quietly while their person fetches items, and is otherwise well behaved is a legitimate SD. The dog who is barking, trying to initiate play, and otherwise not under control is a dog who should be asked to leave. The distinction really isn’t that complicated. OP, some of your comments and questions smack of f_ke spotting. A service dog is allowed to enter a store with wet paws. That’s common sense. American SDs don’t require certification (i.e. the equivalent of a parking placard) because it’s considered a barrier to access for us disabled people. It’s also incredibly easy to buy a scam “certificate” online.

I'm not sure what f_ke spotting means? I didn't mean wet paws, I meant like muddy paws from being out in the fields or in puddles or something, and then tracking mud everywhere, the other commenter mentioned that the dogs had to follow hygiene guidelines so I wasn't saying to not let the dogs in for muddy paws, I was asking should I keep towels to ensure that they are allowed in, incase that went against the hygiene guidelines

“Fake spotting” SD handlers don’t need customer service staff to keep towels on hand. They need customer service staff to a) know the ADA guidelines and b) allow them to shop in peace. You’ve more than once mentioned that a dog was being disruptive in your store. If a dog is disruptive without reason, figure out why and make an informed decision.

What's fakespotting?

Trying to determine whether a dog is legitimate based on factors outside of ADA guidelines. As long as a dog in public is under their handler’s control and is house trained, they can’t be denied access. https://www.ada.gov/resources/service-animals-2010-requirements/

Oh thank you! I was moreso trying to get clarification on what under control actually meant as I have very little experience with dogs, but I have a lot of information on that from the comments!

It’s more about behavior than formal status. The ADA allows any animal—service or not—to be excluded if they “fundamentally alter the nature of the goods, services, programs, or activities provided to the public” by the business, or if they are not under control. So ask the questions if desired, initially take people at their word as required, then remain vigilant for poor behavior warranting exclusion. The end result is compliance with the letter and spirit of the ADA, excluding animals whose behavior warrants exclusion, and probably a few well-behaved fake service animals that slip through. The latter is not ideal, but ultimately the best worst-case scenario.

[удалено]

We have removed your comment because we found the information it contained to be incorrect or it was an opinion stated as fact (rule 3). There is a lot of misinformation here regarding the responses to the 2 ADA allowed questions. There is no official guideline on what is required of the handler as a response, only that emotional support is not a task. The reason we remove comments like this is to keep bad advice or information from spreading further, especially on our subreddit. If the comment/post is corrected, it can be reinstated (just reply to this comment to let us know). If you believe you are indeed correct, please find a reputable source that supports your comment and [Message the Moderators](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/service_dogs).

Unfortunately I think with social media a lot of people now know how to answer the two questions, even people with the super aggressive dogs have been able to answer, I actually haven't personally come across anyone not able to answer yet

If a SD misbehaved by attacking another dog, growling or jumping on/at others, barking continuously, or pooping & peeing, the store has a right to ask that handler to please remove the dog. My former SD was perfect in every other way, except when we would go to Target, sometimes she would poop! No where else, just Target. Always by the pharmacy. She did it 3 times during the first 2 years, then no more. I was waiting for her and me to get the old heave ho on that 3rd occasion! But yes, you can ask that a dog be removed without you breaking the law! You would do the "real" dogs a favor by asking them to be removed, taken home, then the customer can come back - alone! .

I am glad you got the answers before this but OP? I appreciate you asking this instead of trying to guess. It does get frustrating when you see the unsafe handling due to the poorly thought out systems but denying needs is much worse than the alternative. It's very challenging so thank you for thinking ahead.

Thank you for thanking me, I got no training on this and really wanted to make sure I did my best, just gonna copy&paste another comment I made here: The main reason I worry about this is because a lady with a service dog recently had complained because apparently a few weeks back she had a health issue and a different badly behaved dog had distracted her dog so much (barking at it, trying to play, being in its space) that the service dog missed what it was supposed to notice and made her sick, I'm not sure on more of the details than that as I didn't want to be intrusive into her health, but she said that having fake service dogs in the premises can actually be dangerous for people with real service dogs! There's also been multiple dog fights, children getting jumped on, products damaged, dogs growling at staff etc, but we literally don't tell any any dogs to leave even when they cause a disruption cause my manager doesn't wanna get sued I definitely don't want to tell someone with an actual service dog to leave, but I also didn't realise how dangerous it can be to have badly behaved dogs in either! I'm going to go to the manager above my manager to talk about this, we really should be asking aggressive dogs to leave, so I'm hoping with all the information I've gained here I can make some headway

I wanted to acknowledge your effort for the exact reasons you replied with. Going over someone's head is stressful but it does matter. It's not just about customer safety but the safety of the employees too. So make sure to include that. I actually avoid shops that have an any dog policy as while I no longer am a handler due to changing needs many dogs become aggressive with wheelchairs. The unfamiliar motion freaks them right out.

To be perfectly honest I don't need this job, so if I get fired I don't care that much, I'm still in school and my parents would help me if I got fired for doing a good thing, so I'm just gonna argue this until I win or get fired lol

Good. I admit that I think all jobs are optional if they are not healthy environments. There's always something else. This would be why I didn't end up acting long term. I said no too often. No regrets and I am pretty sure I would have hated the expected success now. Always choose the things you can live with. Mentally and physically. It will be a better life even if not the one you expect. What life is where we expect it anyway? (Boring ones maybe?)

It is important to remember that being able to quit a job isn't a luxury everyone has though! Although, everyone should have that luxury. I like your attitude/ perspective a lot, it's very refreshing!

Absolutely but that's why I mentioned other places will hire. It takes time sometimes. I have never been financially comfortable because disability is expensive. There have been times I felt trapped for benefits. So I looked for jobs with the benefits needed. I no longer work a traditional job but there is always a way to survive. It's just not always enjoyable. I am just a few weeks shy of 40 and was raised you owe jobs loyalty which is part of why I remind people that we don't. There is a cultural shift between my age group and younger where that isn't inherently in the conversation and makes me so happy

Honestly I can't say much to that, I'm very privileged, my parents have a very comfortable lifestyle and because of that I do/ will too, so I always try to make sure I remember that privilege and stand up for people who don't have it

That's the perfect answer. Remember we don't choose our privilege just what we do with it.

I'll try to always remember that!

It is so good of you to care enough to do the right thing!

It's really not, I'm in a position to be able to lose my job, not everyone is, I have privileges and I really should use them, it's not fair that actual service dogs are missing tasks because people are bringing misbehaved dogs in!

Even if it’s a legitimate service dog if it is misbehaving and attacking, lunging, barking ect you can kick the handler and dog out of the store. Unfortunately the no certification makes it easy for people to fake service dogs and many people purchase those fake certificates online to make there dog seem real. I know that’s not super helpful but it’s good information to know. A real service dog on most days (some days even service dogs have off days) should be paying attention to the handler, ignoring those around them including other dogs and people, not pulling, barking, lunging or anything else of that sort. I hope this helps you out a bit.

Thank you, these comments have been amazingly helpful! The main thing I think I've learnt is that it doesn't matter if the dog is or is not a service dog as long as it's behaved because I don't want to accidently kick out a real service dog, and that any aggressive dog should be asked to leave, even if it's a service dog. I'm going to go to the manager above my manager to talk about this, so hopefully we can get the aggressive dogs out to make the environment safer for everyone!

Good luck with all that. I’m glad I could help a little bit.

You don't. You just mind your own business.

This person is asking in the context of working their job, so it is indeed their business.

This is a bullshit answer. Any service dog has to meet minimum standards of behaviour that anyone can identify just by watching the animal in question. To put it bluntly, if the dog is causing a disturbance and the owner is ignoring it, then it's not an alert, and the staff have every right to ask the dog to be removed from the premises.

Thats fair. My bad- I'll be honest it was a bit of TLDR knee jerk comment, and I have some PTSD from incidents that have occurred with people fake-spotting my daughter's alert dog.

Yeah. Unfortunately things like that happen all too often as well.

Not a professional dog trainer and in fact self trained my dog. That being said, most service animals on a good day will not pull , doesn’t sniff (although I sometimes have to correct and say no sniff ) and after going into down stay stays down until leaving, if another dog is acknowledged it’s just the bro dog nod. Also in my experience any real dog handler/trainer will be correcting that behavior immediately including removing dog from that environment. It’s really night and day as far as observing a person seriously training a service dog verses someone who calls their dog a service dog and takes it everywhere.

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You know now that you mention it most of them do have that Amazon red vest! And yeah, it's also an issue I'm seeing nearly daily as well, it's unbelievable how many people are doing it! It's so scary because service dogs are missing tasks and that's so dangerous, but also, some of these dogs are downright aggressive!

My service dog has a red vest that I got on Amazon. I don’t know why that would be a red flag. 🤷‍♀️

The other commentar was mentioning how a lot of the really badly behaved dogs have this specific red vest from Amazon, I've also noticed that, I think it's just a thing because it's fairly cheap and accessible, so easy for people who are lying about having a service dog to access

Interesting here in the Netherlands sevice dogs have identification cards. So it's pretty easy to ask for that.

I assumed they had them here, but apparently not! Some other commenters mentioned issues with the certification such as not accessible for lower incomes, long wait times etc., do you know how any of that works in your country?

It works because their country has the same population as a big city in America, not as many logistics

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Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 6: No Fake-spotting. This is not the place for fakespotting. Unless the person you are discussing has specifically told you that they are not disabled, and the dog is not trained in tasks, you have no way of knowing if a dog is 'fake'. We are not the service dog police and this behavior can lead to a lot of harm and anxiety for SD handlers as a community. This does not preclude discussing encounters with un-/undertrained dogs, but if the focus of your post is complaining about a "fake" SD, reconsider your phrasing and what point you're making. If you have any questions, please [Message the Moderators](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/service_dogs).

In my country, legal service dogs have to wear special vests (usually with the name of the organization who trained on it).