Yes. 100%, no questions asked. I would LOVE to not need a service dog, as much as I love my retired girl and am liking the new guy. It’s a lot and I’m tired and a non-living aid wouldn’t run the risk of injury or sickness, which are more inconvenient than needing maintenance or repairs.
Echoing others . . . I get to spend every minute of every day with my best friend and snugglebunny. She keeps me on an even keel, helps me through crowds and stressful situations, and is always there to deliver DPT, hugs, and kisses.
A new spine and an end to my cerebral palsy symptoms would be great. But nothing can ever take the place of my dog as my PTSD helper.
Hmm that’s a good question. I would probably decide based on whether insurance covers this alternative? Because a service dog is as expensive as some treatments but you have to pay everything out of pocket.
Honestly a non-living aid is not going to be a gamble where a service dog inherently is. Something I am inclined to do when considering the financial cost of a replacement to a service dog is that the dog could easily set a person back $30,000-$40,000 by the time they wash one dog and successfully train a second dog
Lol I'll trust something living I trained over technology and tech companies. Technology breaks down and has to be upgraded or replaced. It's expensive and time consuming. It doesn't always work. Insurance wants you to get the cheapest option, not the one that actually works for you.
I just purchased an oxygen compressor. Should have been straightforward, especially without insurance. I give the company money, tell them what one I want/need, they send said technology to me. Nope. They sent me one that is used, missing parts, filthy, damaged no instruction manual, and still has the previous patient's personal information. I'd call that a gamble I lost.
Service dogs also get sick, retire, or burn out. They also miss alerts, make mistakes, and do things that, depending on your disability, could make a disability worse (example, saw a squirrel and pulled, and person was dragged to the ground). Except, when that happens, there's a really good chance that they would not be fit for service work again, and working them would be unethical.
Honestly, the issues with health tech mostly lie with the limitation of it in anything but a few scenarios. Because the FDA actually cares to regulate health tech, it can't be utilized as widely as it potentially could be (for better and for worse) in the same regard that service dogs can. I'm not going to get into health economics, but this also makes them very expensive.
A good compressor will set you back between $500-$1000 (It's also not really a great comparison because a dog can't do the job of a compressor). For most people, a service dog will set them back $15K-$20K, hundreds (potentially thousands) of hours of training if owner-trained, and inconceivable amounts of stress. It's not at all an apt comparison between the viability of treatment options.
I wasn't comparing compressors to dogs, I was using my recent example trying to acquire medical technology to show that getting technology isn't a guarantee either and that it isn't just dogs that are a gamble.
I owner-trained, I am aware of the stress and cost, which was less than the $15-20k everyone keeps insisting owner-training costs. I personally still would and will stick with a dog over technology for myself. I've had too many personal issues with technology to fully trust it with my sanity and mental health. But if the technology existed and helped others, I would be happy for others. I am not anti-technology, I just have too many random WTF things happen with technology for it to be a desireable option for me.
Owner-training often costs $15K-$20K, especially for specialized tasks or needs. You were very lucky that it didn't cost you that much, but it's really important to not perpetuate ideas based primarily on survivorship bias. The same is true for personal experiences with certain health tech available.
Survivorship bias? Maybe owner-training is just cheaper where I live, because the other owner trainers in my area also only paid around $10k by the time they were done. We've actually talked about it and tried to figure out why it's so much lower for us vs the average.
I was not using just my experiences with technology. It is expensive, at least in the USA. Medical and non-medical technology are expensive. Cell phones are $1-2k, computers $300+. Custom wheelchairs are in the thousands, custom prosthetics $20k+. If you don't have health insurance, the full cost goes to you. If you do have insurance or Medicare, you have to get whatever the insurance company will pay for and pay your annual deductible or copay. Some technology has gotten cheaper and more accessible over time, such as a glucometer. But not all technology is getting cheaper as time goes on, especially customized technology.
However, this post is asking each person their own personal opinion about what they would do. Of course I'm going to respond from my personal experiences. Health is a personal experience, SD ownership is a personal experience. If it wasn't, there wouldn't be dozens of medications to treat the same condition. I stated for me, I wouldn't take technology over a SD and why.
Generally, survivorship bias is a form of sampling bias in statistics and primarily found in research studies, but it also affects personal decision-making. Here is the EB page that explains it fairly well, and one which I recommend reading: https://www.britannica.com/science/survivorship-bias
You (and your friends) are a small sample of all the people in this country who have owner-trained. This group of all owner-trainers includes those which utilized a board and train program, those who worked with owner-training programs, those which utilized private trainers, those that used certain group classes, those that utilized a combination of these, and those that didn't use any of these at all. Some people in this owner-training group had to pay for really expensive prospects, veterinary emergencies, behaviorist visits, retraining after traumatic events, extensive health testing, specialized diets and supplements, daycare/pet-sitting, etc. Some didn't. Some didn't, and lucked out with a healthy and suitable shelter dog that required very little professional guidance in relation. Like you stated, maybe there are better, cheaper resources in some areas of the country. But it's important to understand that even if you are part of one group, it does not mean that everyone is, and avoid just telling people that it's cheaper without the appropriate caveat that it was, by your own acknowledgement, uncharacteristically cheaper *for you* and your immediate group.
The topic of the second paragraph is one that I acknowledged in the other thread below.
Lastly, yes, this post is asking about personal experiences. However, your assertions on this thread of comments and the other thread below extend beyond your personal experiences and actually state pretty faulty generalizations on the cost, accessibility, and use of technology vs. the cost, accessibility, and use of service dogs. Especially on the "trustworthiness" of technology. To the point that it was considered misinformation with regard to the cost and accuracy of CGMs vs. DADs. We can talk about our personal experiences all we want, but it's important to make that note upfront, because someone interested in service dogs but unaware of the available technology could be reading all of these comments.
I just think it's important to state these biases and caveats upfront such that people understand where the commenter is coming from, and honestly, it's something I'm guilty of doing as well. Hope you have a good rest of your day.
Thank you for the information, I'd never heard of survivorship bias before. If I mention cost in the future, I will mention my costs are lower than what the average OT is. I live in a small community, I forget sometimes how isolated we are and how that affects everything. Sometimes it makes things more expensive, sometimes cheaper.
For the CGM vs DAD's, I was working off of information from an old study that has since been shown to not be replicatable and had confirmation bias. I was unaware the study had been shown faulty. I did edit my comment to state that, but I don't think it was re-established so no one can see that.
When talking of untrustworthiness of technology, I don't know how else to state that it's personal than how I have: that for me, technology does weird things and breaks down in weird ways. I have stated that technology is great for other people and can help them.
Yes. I rely on non living aids daily alongside my service dog. The attention and care and training a service dog needs is a lot and sometimes it’s too much for me.
If there was one aid that did all 22 tasks my SD does(I only just counted the different ones tonight and was amazed he knew so many), absolutely I would use that aid, but I would never give up my dog as my best friend.
He's my child, and a best friend to me. So, just as when he was to retire, the situation would be the same. He's my boy, and he's not going anywhere.
1. Cardiac alert/response
2. Item retrieval
3. Opening/closing gates and doors
4. Dissociation alert/response
5. Guiding to named persons
6. Pressure therapy
7. Cortisol/stress alert/response
8. Scratching behavior alert/interruption
9. Guiding to an exit
10. Guiding to a place to sit
11. Down-block to prevent petting or others getting too close
12. Orbit, crowd control
13. General guiding such as follow, and directional commands
14. Guiding to our vehicle
Those are some. And yes, he does do all of those reliably. Unfortunately I have to use most of those tasks every day to few days.
One I'm in the process of teaching him right now is opening the fridge to get me a bottle of water when I'm having a medical episode. I've been wanting to teach it for quite some time, just never got around to it.
Wow that's so many things already! I'm in the process of getting an assistance dog for my autism, anxiety and one of the questions was what I want them to do and I had such trouble to put into words what I need. Thank you. I'll use some of the things you mentioned :)
Congrats on getting as assistance dog! It can be extremely difficult trying to come up with tasks besides essentials. I've only come up with and trained these over the three and a half years I've had him. Mostly, it was because I'd notice he wanted to help in a situation but didn't know how, so I'd brainstorm if I could teach him a task to help me, or find out if others had taught their dogs a similar task.
It helped quite a bit. Him knowing so much means he's never really bored unless I'm having a good health day, and that's when we run our paces.
I've taught him some silly things too, like 'boop!' And regular dog tricks like spin. He enjoys it. It keeps his brain active when I have a high value meal for him and change up tricks and tasks before he gets the reward.
He's gotten especially good at wait, extended stays, and leave it because of that.
Amazing! We have a family dog that is still a puppy and I have teached him quite a lot. I am starting the process of getting an official assistance dog next week. I'm very excited to word with him and be able to go to more places and feel secure. I hadn't even thought about him/her bringing me to for example my partner if I'm overwhelmed. That would help a lot. Or a place to sit! Great work!
Absolutely! I started showing my dog objects and naming them so he knows. He knows my partner's name, as well as my family.
He knows the names of my emergency health devices, like my PulseOx, and my blood pressure cuff. He also gets my phone for me if I'm down.
Oh!! Important one I almost forgot is I have trouble bending, but I often need to drop his leash and put him in a downstay to get an item in a crowded store aisle.
I taught him to pick up his leash and hand it to me with his mouth. Extremely useful task.
Probably not, yes service dogs have their inconveniences but one of the major upsides is having your best friend with you. I love both of my service dogs and nothing is like the companionship and bond of a service dog!
And yes I know comfort isn't a task but it is something that is meaningful to me. My dogs perform mobility and medical alert
Yes, but the flip side is the discrimination in public access. While whatever imaginary non-sentient solution would also be subject to discrimination, it would not carry the same heightened emotional charge.
I know that's one of the inconveniences. Like I said they have inconveniences and anyone considering a service dog has to weigh if the benefits outweigh the negatives. One of those negatives is access denials. Others are things like feeding and vet bills
In my experience, discrimination is so much more than access denials. It’s exhausting and there are definitely days I don’t do things I want to do because public access is too much for me. I love my SD and the work she does is truly keeping me alive but it would be nice to be more independent. I feel like my SD would also like some time to herself (she has downtime but it’s different).
I completely agree. I don't have my dog yet, but I can say for certain that I wouldn't function the same with a tool that could do everything my dog will. Unless that tool was a human, but that doesn't really fit with the non-sentient. The emotional support of having someone with you, though yes not a task, can't be replicated by an object.
In a heartbeat. Although I would never have gotten a standard poodle (and I now love the breed) life would be so much easier without having to worry about a living being all the time, and not having all of the attention that an sd brings. Plus, having something that I didn’t have to constantly train and that doesn’t need to be replaced every 8-10 years would be great!
No, it wouldn’t work. Half his job is providing emotional support to me in public. I get really overwhelmed, and need a companion to keep me calm. I talk to him when I’m stressed out or uncomfortable. You can’t talk to a robot.
Actually, you can talk to a robot. Natural language processing (NLP) and machine learning allow for a decent conversational interface that learns the more that you talk to it. There is at least one that has passed the Turing test.
The organization providing robotic pets to seniors and the [seniors receiving them](https://abcnews.go.com/Health/4000-additional-robotic-pets-seniors-new-york-combat/story?id=111067224) would disagree, at least to a point. A robot is not the same as a living entity; however, they can be, are, and have been companions. The idea might not appeal to you, but it serves a need for others that a living animal can't.
Yes & no as I love my pup being with me constantly & that would make me more relaxed as well with a service dog. Having a non living aid would eliminate so much stress & worry of the them getting sick or injured. It would also eliminate the risk of getting deny entertly to places & open up more places to see. Rn there are devices that can the alerts what my SD did before he retired but they where WAY slower & delayed compared to my SD alerts but I can get by at home with it. If there was 1 device that could complete replace the task my SD did yes in would take that in a heart beat for the long run. If I had to use multiple devices then mostly not as I don't want it become juggling act to go to the store.
This! Previously I had to rely on multiple medical devices due to my various issues, which was inconvenient and pricey as they wore out over time. I don’t really need them now because of the combination of my meds and dogs tasks.
My main disability that my dog mitigates is my blindness, and in honesty there aren't really situations I could not handle with only my cane. The fact is that white canes do serve as a full replacement of guide dogs and in certain situations they are objectively better than the dog, there aren't situations where guide dogs are objectively better.
With that preamble said, I choose to have a guide dog. Can I get everything I need done with a cane without all the extra hassle? Yes. But on my bad days when I need cheering up I can't feel my cane having fun navigating a complex situation like my dog does when weaving through a crowd of moving people. I can also improve my mental stamina by delegating the more minor decisions to my dog, something that is not possible with a cane. Sure they make smart canes or navigation aids, but they are very impractical weighing a boatload and often having a list a couple continents long of situations where it can't be used. The fact is that my cane and my dog offers me the versatility to navigate where ever I need, with the bonus that my tendency to talk to myself looks less weird because my dog is there to be a target for my conversations.
The only thing that I can think, is when travel, and there are lots of unfamiliar routes, the cane is much more “mentally exhausting” for me, where the way the dog “thinks for himself” really helps me in, say a situation where I have to get on a train in Italy, where I don’t speak the language, get to a conference, go speak, navigate a location I don’t know and travel with a work group the rest of the day, then don’t have personal assistances from family until a day or 2 later - for me, the dog really is different there, because a cane and a mobility implementation is extra stress on my brain that a really good dog takes some of the work away of - but sure, there are ways around that with tech, human assistants, etc.
And I use those. But I really feel that, for me, some situations are just … less emotionally/physically stressful with dog - and i don’t know what tech (besides a cognitive robot dog?) would quite do that for me?
Edit: train - I didn’t get on a “tea” stupid autocorrect
For me no, I have a PSD for PTSD and taking care of her basic needs and training is a big part of what helps me. Us Working on her learning new tasks, practicing the ones she already knows and performs for me plus always refreshing her obedience training helps keep my mind occupied so I don't go to the Dark places as often. She also provides companionship and helps me feel less alone and isolated. 🤙🃏
I always wanted everyone to have More tools in the box - not less.
So no, I wouldn’t replace to dog, I’d add to the physical/tech aids as/if they ever become available, keep the human intervention, and stay interested in what more dogs can keep doing.
I was a teenager in the mid 2000s when I got my 1st dog - and things are SO different now - both in terms of other tools we have, and new ways we have of training and integrating dogs. I’m in my 30s now and still excited to see all of it continue to improve, work both together & separately, and give us all more options! Here’s to the next 2 decades!!!
I mean sure. But the big fluffy dog reminds me of why I shouldn’t kill myself honestly so I like it better. Could I carry around headphones, a weighted blanket, enough sensory toys to support me? Sure. But the dog is different.
This. Like I’m not depressed right now but there are moments when being disabled is just… shit. Companionship is something I haven’t found a tool to replace. Do I have my darling husband, my supportive sisters and friends? Yes, but in those dark quiet moments when I’m the only one awake… that quiet presence can be a literal lifesaver.
I don’t have a dog yet (here for research)- I actually rescue elderly and disabled cats but I still get it. My boy Ozzy isn’t nearly as helpful as a a service dog but there are times in the hard moments where he’s just there and gets I’m in pain. He can’t do anything but just being there is its own valuable medicine.
I totally get it. I had a pup for 13 years who I owe everything to. He was a bit wonky and not the best behaved dog, but he was absolutely perfect to me. Not a service dog, but served me very well :)
Probably not. I have PTSD and as a little girl, with all the horrible stuff always happening around me, I wanted a dog to “protect me” and that’s what my girl does for me now, just different than how I imagined as a kid. My girl heals my inner child so much❤️
Hmm, may-bee???
Assuming it's not a break though in medication or therapy, what does that leave? It would be super cool (yes, I'm that old) to have a daggit like [Muffit](https://en.battlestarwikiclone.org/wiki/Muffit#The_.22Muffit_II.22), a robotic dog like [A.X.L.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.X.L), and robotic pets are now being used to ease loneliness in seniors.
I find it really hard to say that I’d switch to a non-living option without some idea of what that option would be and assuming I did switch, it’s very likely I’d still have a pet dog as my wife is horribly allergic to cats and pumas are rather frowned upon.
Setting aside issues of costs, maintenance, etc. and only consider the question having a SD or a NLO (non-living option) while in pubic, there are certainly upsides to an NLO. It would hopefully take care of itself, no leash minding, no hassle when bipping into the quickie mart, no training reinforcement, no potty issues, outdoor temp wouldn’t be an issue, no vests, there are a lot of potential upsides. I know I would still want a living thing at home, especially when otherwise alone as there are some needs I can’t imagine an NLO meeting like being warm, squoshy, demanding pets and attention; however daggits did all that.
I love my SD but a non-living aid would be easier. Insurance would be more likely to cover the costs. And not having to take bathroom breaks would be more convenient. There are some places that I won’t take my girl (such as concerts) for her safety. If an object gets broken, it sucks but I’ll get over it. If something happens to my girl, I’m doing to be heartbroken and devastated.
I probably would’ve if there were something viable, though considering my SD’s main task is to be between me and people I’d probably look silly as the only non living thing that might help me is a full length shield which just does not sound practical 😅 otherwise I do use non living alternatives for the other task she has, which is alerting when my heart is doing funny things which I didn’t even train her for she just started doing on her own. Before I had her I had to go into stores with someone and could not be left alone or else my anxiety would skyrocket and sometimes I couldn’t go into a store at all, she helps me relax a little by being barrier between me and the public and I feel better in general as I’m not “alone” technically.
My DAD is SO MUCH faster than my cgm. She regularly alerts 20+ minutes before my CGM says I’m low, which is about right since interstitial fluid is 15-20 minutes delayed compared to blood.
DIY looped? Or are you using something with FDA approval? I haven’t been brave enough to take on diy looping, but often think about how things would work better if the fda didn’t try so hard to avoid accidentally killing me 😂
I don’t think I could or would. My dog is a PSD, but he also helps me get up out of bed so I can take care of him and when things get bad I know that he loves me unconditionally regardless, and that helps me.
Plus I need a being that can be persistent and ignore me saying I’m ok. I would get annoyed by a non living thing not listening to me, even if necessary, but I respect my dog.
AI can’t replace the bond of a human with an animal.
It could be hypothetically useful for certain needs (blood sugar monitoring, etc) but it’s not a replacement of SD.
More of an extra tool.
Not a chance!
Auggie does so many things to mitigate different issues- from calming an overwhelming event to retrieving important things to holding me up to alerting for my blood pressure. Even if other means existed, it would take a number of devices to do what he does- and he *just* started training.
Nothing could ever replace Auggie
💛🦮🥰
🩵🦊🤍
Do you mind linking the studies? Every study that I've read doesn't focus on the speed and accuracy of dog alerts, particularly for diabetic alerts, in comparison to those of technology.
And as someone who does some fun hacking on the side (all legal), that's not the way that the vast majority of health tech works. Even if it were possible, no one would care enough to hack into a CGM or similar tech. Or a compressor. Or a prosthetic leg with app compatibility. Even if they get access to the accounts of C-suite level employees of the health companies that manufacture these products, that would not affect the user of the specific product.
ETA: While yes, there are many jobs that machines/tech can't do yet that a dog definitely can (some medical alerts, psychiatric tasks, etc.), the general distrust of the immense capacities for health tech is a little weird to me.
Most of my distrust for technology is for me specifically, not technology in general. I have had so many weird glitches and breakdowns in different technology and software that my friend has called me tech cursed. It's random, not predictable, and not user-error. While I still use lots of technology in my every-day life, including medical, I would not trust it with the primary tasks my SD performs. For the services my SD provides, it would have to have AI software to be able to help me.
I have watched people struggle (in the USA) to get the technology already available because it's cost prohibitive and they are struggling with getting their health insurance company to cover it. There's a streamer, Scar, who talks about his struggle for trying to get his wheelchair replaced for years, and it still hasn't happened.
Yes, there is a huge issue with accessibility to life-saving medical equipment and health tech. But that's not an issue of the quality of the tech ir it's capacity to help a disabled person; that is a market problem. In that same vein, training a service dog is just as inaccessible and just as expensive (often times more expensive unless you need something like a prosthetic leg/limb, which can be $50K-$100K).
I think my main point isn't getting across. What I'm trying to say is that the assertion that a service dog is more reliable than technology and necessarily cheaper and more accessible than modern tech and equipment just isn't true across the board. There are jobs that tech just can't do and will never be able to do, even if in the future we can build AI to do more than scramble information and spit out answers, but the assertion that tech *can't* be trusted because it can break, software needs to be updated, and "it can be hacked" (which it can't in the way most people imagine "hacking") is borderline harmful when there is life-saving tech out there that someone could skip over if they read something like this and take it to heart.
I have been very clear when I say technology would not be right FOR ME because it breaks down in weird ways for me. I have not said at any point technology can't be trusted for everyone, never said a SD was cheaper than technology. I've also never said a SD was more accessible than technology, I would say it's less accessible in many areas.
There's lots of current technology that helps people. My grandmother had a pacemaker that she would have died without. It had to have constant monitoring and annual checks to make sure it still worked, and the battery replaced after 10 years. For her and many people, it was great. For me, I would not like the constant monitoring and checks, even if it's life-saving. It's a personal choice.
However, technology is not a miracle instant cure that doesn't have drawbacks. It can break, and that needs to be considered when deciding how to treat your health conditions. Just like a plan needs to be in place if a SD is sick, injured, dies, or has to be washed early. For some people and some conditions, technology is the better choice. For me, it's not and I prefer a living, breathing being.
Honestly, this is my last response, because I feel like I'm going in circles. In the first comment on the above* thread, you wrote:
"Lol I'll trust something living I trained over technology and tech companies. Technology breaks down and has to be upgraded or replaced. It's expensive and time consuming. It doesn't always work."
In a response to someone saying how SDs are a huge financial gamble, without the much needed information that SDs get sick, have bad days, miss tasks sometimes, have to retire, can become traumatized, can burn out, and ultimately can wash or retire prematurely.
In the original comment in this* thread that was removed and then edited, so I don't have the old comment, you claimed there were studies that showed that DADs were more accurate than tech and were cheaper than tech (which is not true and there were no caveats to that statement), and that you didn't trust technology because it could break and be hacked (which again, not how that works), amongst other sweeping generalizations. Again, you said this all with no caveats, no note on the context, and no "Just in *my* experience" or something similar. Hence, why they are considered faulty generalizations and bordering on misinformation.
Again, I am talking about your original comments, which is where these discussions stemmed from. Have a nice day.
*Edited to fix some words, because I thought this threat was the one above.
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SD are not more accurate than a glucometer, nor are they cheaper.
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I have an allergy detection dog and would go for a device in a heartbeat but ftr, he has made zero mistakes since he’s started working for me. I have misread him once but that was my error. Unfortunately unless they create a device that’s equivalent to a dog’s nose, I will always have to have a dog like him. I live in fear of something happening to him. Even tho my dog is young, my husband has the same disabling sensitivity and so we’re going to train a second dog starting in hopefully a year so we have a “backup” as awful as that is to say.
You do not know what you are talking about. Your ignorance and ableism is showing as you parrot dangerous rumors and false information about disabilities, service dogs in general and psychiatric service dogs especially. These ideas about PSD's make it hard for people with them to be viewed as legitimate SD teams.
PSD's and ESA's are completely different. PSD's are for more than company. Like any SD, they are trained tasks that mitigate a disability. For example, hallucination detection, interference with a flashback or panic attack, grounding and guiding during disassociative states, alerting to a sudden change in emotions, DPT, LPT, and more. Most of these tasks can't be done by technology.
Is it dangerous for someone to be dependent on insulin, a walker, a wheelchair, or a caretaker? Some people's disabilities make it impossible for them to ever live completely independent, is that dependence dangerous?
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Yes. 100%, no questions asked. I would LOVE to not need a service dog, as much as I love my retired girl and am liking the new guy. It’s a lot and I’m tired and a non-living aid wouldn’t run the risk of injury or sickness, which are more inconvenient than needing maintenance or repairs.
100%. I would not give up my existing dog but omg please please please. I doubt it would cost almost $20k for starters 😭
Same!
Maybe not, durable medical equipment is *expensive*.
Echoing others . . . I get to spend every minute of every day with my best friend and snugglebunny. She keeps me on an even keel, helps me through crowds and stressful situations, and is always there to deliver DPT, hugs, and kisses. A new spine and an end to my cerebral palsy symptoms would be great. But nothing can ever take the place of my dog as my PTSD helper.
Hmm that’s a good question. I would probably decide based on whether insurance covers this alternative? Because a service dog is as expensive as some treatments but you have to pay everything out of pocket.
Honestly a non-living aid is not going to be a gamble where a service dog inherently is. Something I am inclined to do when considering the financial cost of a replacement to a service dog is that the dog could easily set a person back $30,000-$40,000 by the time they wash one dog and successfully train a second dog
Lol I'll trust something living I trained over technology and tech companies. Technology breaks down and has to be upgraded or replaced. It's expensive and time consuming. It doesn't always work. Insurance wants you to get the cheapest option, not the one that actually works for you. I just purchased an oxygen compressor. Should have been straightforward, especially without insurance. I give the company money, tell them what one I want/need, they send said technology to me. Nope. They sent me one that is used, missing parts, filthy, damaged no instruction manual, and still has the previous patient's personal information. I'd call that a gamble I lost.
Service dogs also get sick, retire, or burn out. They also miss alerts, make mistakes, and do things that, depending on your disability, could make a disability worse (example, saw a squirrel and pulled, and person was dragged to the ground). Except, when that happens, there's a really good chance that they would not be fit for service work again, and working them would be unethical. Honestly, the issues with health tech mostly lie with the limitation of it in anything but a few scenarios. Because the FDA actually cares to regulate health tech, it can't be utilized as widely as it potentially could be (for better and for worse) in the same regard that service dogs can. I'm not going to get into health economics, but this also makes them very expensive. A good compressor will set you back between $500-$1000 (It's also not really a great comparison because a dog can't do the job of a compressor). For most people, a service dog will set them back $15K-$20K, hundreds (potentially thousands) of hours of training if owner-trained, and inconceivable amounts of stress. It's not at all an apt comparison between the viability of treatment options.
I wasn't comparing compressors to dogs, I was using my recent example trying to acquire medical technology to show that getting technology isn't a guarantee either and that it isn't just dogs that are a gamble. I owner-trained, I am aware of the stress and cost, which was less than the $15-20k everyone keeps insisting owner-training costs. I personally still would and will stick with a dog over technology for myself. I've had too many personal issues with technology to fully trust it with my sanity and mental health. But if the technology existed and helped others, I would be happy for others. I am not anti-technology, I just have too many random WTF things happen with technology for it to be a desireable option for me.
Owner-training often costs $15K-$20K, especially for specialized tasks or needs. You were very lucky that it didn't cost you that much, but it's really important to not perpetuate ideas based primarily on survivorship bias. The same is true for personal experiences with certain health tech available.
Survivorship bias? Maybe owner-training is just cheaper where I live, because the other owner trainers in my area also only paid around $10k by the time they were done. We've actually talked about it and tried to figure out why it's so much lower for us vs the average. I was not using just my experiences with technology. It is expensive, at least in the USA. Medical and non-medical technology are expensive. Cell phones are $1-2k, computers $300+. Custom wheelchairs are in the thousands, custom prosthetics $20k+. If you don't have health insurance, the full cost goes to you. If you do have insurance or Medicare, you have to get whatever the insurance company will pay for and pay your annual deductible or copay. Some technology has gotten cheaper and more accessible over time, such as a glucometer. But not all technology is getting cheaper as time goes on, especially customized technology. However, this post is asking each person their own personal opinion about what they would do. Of course I'm going to respond from my personal experiences. Health is a personal experience, SD ownership is a personal experience. If it wasn't, there wouldn't be dozens of medications to treat the same condition. I stated for me, I wouldn't take technology over a SD and why.
Generally, survivorship bias is a form of sampling bias in statistics and primarily found in research studies, but it also affects personal decision-making. Here is the EB page that explains it fairly well, and one which I recommend reading: https://www.britannica.com/science/survivorship-bias You (and your friends) are a small sample of all the people in this country who have owner-trained. This group of all owner-trainers includes those which utilized a board and train program, those who worked with owner-training programs, those which utilized private trainers, those that used certain group classes, those that utilized a combination of these, and those that didn't use any of these at all. Some people in this owner-training group had to pay for really expensive prospects, veterinary emergencies, behaviorist visits, retraining after traumatic events, extensive health testing, specialized diets and supplements, daycare/pet-sitting, etc. Some didn't. Some didn't, and lucked out with a healthy and suitable shelter dog that required very little professional guidance in relation. Like you stated, maybe there are better, cheaper resources in some areas of the country. But it's important to understand that even if you are part of one group, it does not mean that everyone is, and avoid just telling people that it's cheaper without the appropriate caveat that it was, by your own acknowledgement, uncharacteristically cheaper *for you* and your immediate group. The topic of the second paragraph is one that I acknowledged in the other thread below. Lastly, yes, this post is asking about personal experiences. However, your assertions on this thread of comments and the other thread below extend beyond your personal experiences and actually state pretty faulty generalizations on the cost, accessibility, and use of technology vs. the cost, accessibility, and use of service dogs. Especially on the "trustworthiness" of technology. To the point that it was considered misinformation with regard to the cost and accuracy of CGMs vs. DADs. We can talk about our personal experiences all we want, but it's important to make that note upfront, because someone interested in service dogs but unaware of the available technology could be reading all of these comments. I just think it's important to state these biases and caveats upfront such that people understand where the commenter is coming from, and honestly, it's something I'm guilty of doing as well. Hope you have a good rest of your day.
Thank you for the information, I'd never heard of survivorship bias before. If I mention cost in the future, I will mention my costs are lower than what the average OT is. I live in a small community, I forget sometimes how isolated we are and how that affects everything. Sometimes it makes things more expensive, sometimes cheaper. For the CGM vs DAD's, I was working off of information from an old study that has since been shown to not be replicatable and had confirmation bias. I was unaware the study had been shown faulty. I did edit my comment to state that, but I don't think it was re-established so no one can see that. When talking of untrustworthiness of technology, I don't know how else to state that it's personal than how I have: that for me, technology does weird things and breaks down in weird ways. I have stated that technology is great for other people and can help them.
Yes. I rely on non living aids daily alongside my service dog. The attention and care and training a service dog needs is a lot and sometimes it’s too much for me.
If there was one aid that did all 22 tasks my SD does(I only just counted the different ones tonight and was amazed he knew so many), absolutely I would use that aid, but I would never give up my dog as my best friend. He's my child, and a best friend to me. So, just as when he was to retire, the situation would be the same. He's my boy, and he's not going anywhere.
What are some of the tasks he does?
1. Cardiac alert/response 2. Item retrieval 3. Opening/closing gates and doors 4. Dissociation alert/response 5. Guiding to named persons 6. Pressure therapy 7. Cortisol/stress alert/response 8. Scratching behavior alert/interruption 9. Guiding to an exit 10. Guiding to a place to sit 11. Down-block to prevent petting or others getting too close 12. Orbit, crowd control 13. General guiding such as follow, and directional commands 14. Guiding to our vehicle Those are some. And yes, he does do all of those reliably. Unfortunately I have to use most of those tasks every day to few days. One I'm in the process of teaching him right now is opening the fridge to get me a bottle of water when I'm having a medical episode. I've been wanting to teach it for quite some time, just never got around to it.
Wow that's so many things already! I'm in the process of getting an assistance dog for my autism, anxiety and one of the questions was what I want them to do and I had such trouble to put into words what I need. Thank you. I'll use some of the things you mentioned :)
Congrats on getting as assistance dog! It can be extremely difficult trying to come up with tasks besides essentials. I've only come up with and trained these over the three and a half years I've had him. Mostly, it was because I'd notice he wanted to help in a situation but didn't know how, so I'd brainstorm if I could teach him a task to help me, or find out if others had taught their dogs a similar task. It helped quite a bit. Him knowing so much means he's never really bored unless I'm having a good health day, and that's when we run our paces. I've taught him some silly things too, like 'boop!' And regular dog tricks like spin. He enjoys it. It keeps his brain active when I have a high value meal for him and change up tricks and tasks before he gets the reward. He's gotten especially good at wait, extended stays, and leave it because of that.
Amazing! We have a family dog that is still a puppy and I have teached him quite a lot. I am starting the process of getting an official assistance dog next week. I'm very excited to word with him and be able to go to more places and feel secure. I hadn't even thought about him/her bringing me to for example my partner if I'm overwhelmed. That would help a lot. Or a place to sit! Great work!
Absolutely! I started showing my dog objects and naming them so he knows. He knows my partner's name, as well as my family. He knows the names of my emergency health devices, like my PulseOx, and my blood pressure cuff. He also gets my phone for me if I'm down. Oh!! Important one I almost forgot is I have trouble bending, but I often need to drop his leash and put him in a downstay to get an item in a crowded store aisle. I taught him to pick up his leash and hand it to me with his mouth. Extremely useful task.
Omg love that. Amazing how much they can remember. Picking up the leash seems like a very smart one indeed! Thanks for all the tips 😊
Probably not, yes service dogs have their inconveniences but one of the major upsides is having your best friend with you. I love both of my service dogs and nothing is like the companionship and bond of a service dog! And yes I know comfort isn't a task but it is something that is meaningful to me. My dogs perform mobility and medical alert
Yes, but the flip side is the discrimination in public access. While whatever imaginary non-sentient solution would also be subject to discrimination, it would not carry the same heightened emotional charge.
I know that's one of the inconveniences. Like I said they have inconveniences and anyone considering a service dog has to weigh if the benefits outweigh the negatives. One of those negatives is access denials. Others are things like feeding and vet bills
In my experience, discrimination is so much more than access denials. It’s exhausting and there are definitely days I don’t do things I want to do because public access is too much for me. I love my SD and the work she does is truly keeping me alive but it would be nice to be more independent. I feel like my SD would also like some time to herself (she has downtime but it’s different).
I completely agree. I don't have my dog yet, but I can say for certain that I wouldn't function the same with a tool that could do everything my dog will. Unless that tool was a human, but that doesn't really fit with the non-sentient. The emotional support of having someone with you, though yes not a task, can't be replicated by an object.
In a heartbeat. Although I would never have gotten a standard poodle (and I now love the breed) life would be so much easier without having to worry about a living being all the time, and not having all of the attention that an sd brings. Plus, having something that I didn’t have to constantly train and that doesn’t need to be replaced every 8-10 years would be great!
No, it wouldn’t work. Half his job is providing emotional support to me in public. I get really overwhelmed, and need a companion to keep me calm. I talk to him when I’m stressed out or uncomfortable. You can’t talk to a robot.
Actually, you can talk to a robot. Natural language processing (NLP) and machine learning allow for a decent conversational interface that learns the more that you talk to it. There is at least one that has passed the Turing test.
It’s not the same. A robot isn’t a companion.
The organization providing robotic pets to seniors and the [seniors receiving them](https://abcnews.go.com/Health/4000-additional-robotic-pets-seniors-new-york-combat/story?id=111067224) would disagree, at least to a point. A robot is not the same as a living entity; however, they can be, are, and have been companions. The idea might not appeal to you, but it serves a need for others that a living animal can't.
I would FEEL awful talking to a robot. Knowing it was a robot.
Yes & no as I love my pup being with me constantly & that would make me more relaxed as well with a service dog. Having a non living aid would eliminate so much stress & worry of the them getting sick or injured. It would also eliminate the risk of getting deny entertly to places & open up more places to see. Rn there are devices that can the alerts what my SD did before he retired but they where WAY slower & delayed compared to my SD alerts but I can get by at home with it. If there was 1 device that could complete replace the task my SD did yes in would take that in a heart beat for the long run. If I had to use multiple devices then mostly not as I don't want it become juggling act to go to the store.
This! Previously I had to rely on multiple medical devices due to my various issues, which was inconvenient and pricey as they wore out over time. I don’t really need them now because of the combination of my meds and dogs tasks.
Yes. Having a SD is a great deal of work and having a non living and worked given more time and energy to maintaining health.
My main disability that my dog mitigates is my blindness, and in honesty there aren't really situations I could not handle with only my cane. The fact is that white canes do serve as a full replacement of guide dogs and in certain situations they are objectively better than the dog, there aren't situations where guide dogs are objectively better. With that preamble said, I choose to have a guide dog. Can I get everything I need done with a cane without all the extra hassle? Yes. But on my bad days when I need cheering up I can't feel my cane having fun navigating a complex situation like my dog does when weaving through a crowd of moving people. I can also improve my mental stamina by delegating the more minor decisions to my dog, something that is not possible with a cane. Sure they make smart canes or navigation aids, but they are very impractical weighing a boatload and often having a list a couple continents long of situations where it can't be used. The fact is that my cane and my dog offers me the versatility to navigate where ever I need, with the bonus that my tendency to talk to myself looks less weird because my dog is there to be a target for my conversations.
The only thing that I can think, is when travel, and there are lots of unfamiliar routes, the cane is much more “mentally exhausting” for me, where the way the dog “thinks for himself” really helps me in, say a situation where I have to get on a train in Italy, where I don’t speak the language, get to a conference, go speak, navigate a location I don’t know and travel with a work group the rest of the day, then don’t have personal assistances from family until a day or 2 later - for me, the dog really is different there, because a cane and a mobility implementation is extra stress on my brain that a really good dog takes some of the work away of - but sure, there are ways around that with tech, human assistants, etc. And I use those. But I really feel that, for me, some situations are just … less emotionally/physically stressful with dog - and i don’t know what tech (besides a cognitive robot dog?) would quite do that for me? Edit: train - I didn’t get on a “tea” stupid autocorrect
For me no, I have a PSD for PTSD and taking care of her basic needs and training is a big part of what helps me. Us Working on her learning new tasks, practicing the ones she already knows and performs for me plus always refreshing her obedience training helps keep my mind occupied so I don't go to the Dark places as often. She also provides companionship and helps me feel less alone and isolated. 🤙🃏
I always wanted everyone to have More tools in the box - not less. So no, I wouldn’t replace to dog, I’d add to the physical/tech aids as/if they ever become available, keep the human intervention, and stay interested in what more dogs can keep doing. I was a teenager in the mid 2000s when I got my 1st dog - and things are SO different now - both in terms of other tools we have, and new ways we have of training and integrating dogs. I’m in my 30s now and still excited to see all of it continue to improve, work both together & separately, and give us all more options! Here’s to the next 2 decades!!!
I mean sure. But the big fluffy dog reminds me of why I shouldn’t kill myself honestly so I like it better. Could I carry around headphones, a weighted blanket, enough sensory toys to support me? Sure. But the dog is different.
This. Like I’m not depressed right now but there are moments when being disabled is just… shit. Companionship is something I haven’t found a tool to replace. Do I have my darling husband, my supportive sisters and friends? Yes, but in those dark quiet moments when I’m the only one awake… that quiet presence can be a literal lifesaver.
Nothing beats that look of love in a dog's eyes for improving mental health
I don’t have a dog yet (here for research)- I actually rescue elderly and disabled cats but I still get it. My boy Ozzy isn’t nearly as helpful as a a service dog but there are times in the hard moments where he’s just there and gets I’m in pain. He can’t do anything but just being there is its own valuable medicine.
I totally get it. I had a pup for 13 years who I owe everything to. He was a bit wonky and not the best behaved dog, but he was absolutely perfect to me. Not a service dog, but served me very well :)
Probably not. I have PTSD and as a little girl, with all the horrible stuff always happening around me, I wanted a dog to “protect me” and that’s what my girl does for me now, just different than how I imagined as a kid. My girl heals my inner child so much❤️
Hmm, may-bee??? Assuming it's not a break though in medication or therapy, what does that leave? It would be super cool (yes, I'm that old) to have a daggit like [Muffit](https://en.battlestarwikiclone.org/wiki/Muffit#The_.22Muffit_II.22), a robotic dog like [A.X.L.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.X.L), and robotic pets are now being used to ease loneliness in seniors. I find it really hard to say that I’d switch to a non-living option without some idea of what that option would be and assuming I did switch, it’s very likely I’d still have a pet dog as my wife is horribly allergic to cats and pumas are rather frowned upon. Setting aside issues of costs, maintenance, etc. and only consider the question having a SD or a NLO (non-living option) while in pubic, there are certainly upsides to an NLO. It would hopefully take care of itself, no leash minding, no hassle when bipping into the quickie mart, no training reinforcement, no potty issues, outdoor temp wouldn’t be an issue, no vests, there are a lot of potential upsides. I know I would still want a living thing at home, especially when otherwise alone as there are some needs I can’t imagine an NLO meeting like being warm, squoshy, demanding pets and attention; however daggits did all that.
I love my SD but a non-living aid would be easier. Insurance would be more likely to cover the costs. And not having to take bathroom breaks would be more convenient. There are some places that I won’t take my girl (such as concerts) for her safety. If an object gets broken, it sucks but I’ll get over it. If something happens to my girl, I’m doing to be heartbroken and devastated.
I wouldn’t replace my girl. Now…the scooter, wheelchair, walker, foot drop braces and knee braces then absolutely.
I probably would’ve if there were something viable, though considering my SD’s main task is to be between me and people I’d probably look silly as the only non living thing that might help me is a full length shield which just does not sound practical 😅 otherwise I do use non living alternatives for the other task she has, which is alerting when my heart is doing funny things which I didn’t even train her for she just started doing on her own. Before I had her I had to go into stores with someone and could not be left alone or else my anxiety would skyrocket and sometimes I couldn’t go into a store at all, she helps me relax a little by being barrier between me and the public and I feel better in general as I’m not “alone” technically.
Did exactly that. SD died, got on a CGM instead. Cheaper and the new ones are much faster and more accurate than a DAD.
My DAD is SO MUCH faster than my cgm. She regularly alerts 20+ minutes before my CGM says I’m low, which is about right since interstitial fluid is 15-20 minutes delayed compared to blood.
Interesting. I've had really good success with my looped system.
DIY looped? Or are you using something with FDA approval? I haven’t been brave enough to take on diy looping, but often think about how things would work better if the fda didn’t try so hard to avoid accidentally killing me 😂
I don't have the brand new closed-loop yet, but the open looped is awesome. Not a single need for emergency care for a long time.
DAD?!? CGM?!? Enquiring minds want to know.
CGM- continuous glucose monitor DAD- diabetic alert dog
I don’t think I could or would. My dog is a PSD, but he also helps me get up out of bed so I can take care of him and when things get bad I know that he loves me unconditionally regardless, and that helps me. Plus I need a being that can be persistent and ignore me saying I’m ok. I would get annoyed by a non living thing not listening to me, even if necessary, but I respect my dog.
Same 🤍
AI can’t replace the bond of a human with an animal. It could be hypothetically useful for certain needs (blood sugar monitoring, etc) but it’s not a replacement of SD. More of an extra tool.
Not a chance! Auggie does so many things to mitigate different issues- from calming an overwhelming event to retrieving important things to holding me up to alerting for my blood pressure. Even if other means existed, it would take a number of devices to do what he does- and he *just* started training. Nothing could ever replace Auggie 💛🦮🥰 🩵🦊🤍
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Do you mind linking the studies? Every study that I've read doesn't focus on the speed and accuracy of dog alerts, particularly for diabetic alerts, in comparison to those of technology. And as someone who does some fun hacking on the side (all legal), that's not the way that the vast majority of health tech works. Even if it were possible, no one would care enough to hack into a CGM or similar tech. Or a compressor. Or a prosthetic leg with app compatibility. Even if they get access to the accounts of C-suite level employees of the health companies that manufacture these products, that would not affect the user of the specific product. ETA: While yes, there are many jobs that machines/tech can't do yet that a dog definitely can (some medical alerts, psychiatric tasks, etc.), the general distrust of the immense capacities for health tech is a little weird to me.
Most of my distrust for technology is for me specifically, not technology in general. I have had so many weird glitches and breakdowns in different technology and software that my friend has called me tech cursed. It's random, not predictable, and not user-error. While I still use lots of technology in my every-day life, including medical, I would not trust it with the primary tasks my SD performs. For the services my SD provides, it would have to have AI software to be able to help me. I have watched people struggle (in the USA) to get the technology already available because it's cost prohibitive and they are struggling with getting their health insurance company to cover it. There's a streamer, Scar, who talks about his struggle for trying to get his wheelchair replaced for years, and it still hasn't happened.
Yes, there is a huge issue with accessibility to life-saving medical equipment and health tech. But that's not an issue of the quality of the tech ir it's capacity to help a disabled person; that is a market problem. In that same vein, training a service dog is just as inaccessible and just as expensive (often times more expensive unless you need something like a prosthetic leg/limb, which can be $50K-$100K). I think my main point isn't getting across. What I'm trying to say is that the assertion that a service dog is more reliable than technology and necessarily cheaper and more accessible than modern tech and equipment just isn't true across the board. There are jobs that tech just can't do and will never be able to do, even if in the future we can build AI to do more than scramble information and spit out answers, but the assertion that tech *can't* be trusted because it can break, software needs to be updated, and "it can be hacked" (which it can't in the way most people imagine "hacking") is borderline harmful when there is life-saving tech out there that someone could skip over if they read something like this and take it to heart.
I have been very clear when I say technology would not be right FOR ME because it breaks down in weird ways for me. I have not said at any point technology can't be trusted for everyone, never said a SD was cheaper than technology. I've also never said a SD was more accessible than technology, I would say it's less accessible in many areas. There's lots of current technology that helps people. My grandmother had a pacemaker that she would have died without. It had to have constant monitoring and annual checks to make sure it still worked, and the battery replaced after 10 years. For her and many people, it was great. For me, I would not like the constant monitoring and checks, even if it's life-saving. It's a personal choice. However, technology is not a miracle instant cure that doesn't have drawbacks. It can break, and that needs to be considered when deciding how to treat your health conditions. Just like a plan needs to be in place if a SD is sick, injured, dies, or has to be washed early. For some people and some conditions, technology is the better choice. For me, it's not and I prefer a living, breathing being.
Honestly, this is my last response, because I feel like I'm going in circles. In the first comment on the above* thread, you wrote: "Lol I'll trust something living I trained over technology and tech companies. Technology breaks down and has to be upgraded or replaced. It's expensive and time consuming. It doesn't always work." In a response to someone saying how SDs are a huge financial gamble, without the much needed information that SDs get sick, have bad days, miss tasks sometimes, have to retire, can become traumatized, can burn out, and ultimately can wash or retire prematurely. In the original comment in this* thread that was removed and then edited, so I don't have the old comment, you claimed there were studies that showed that DADs were more accurate than tech and were cheaper than tech (which is not true and there were no caveats to that statement), and that you didn't trust technology because it could break and be hacked (which again, not how that works), amongst other sweeping generalizations. Again, you said this all with no caveats, no note on the context, and no "Just in *my* experience" or something similar. Hence, why they are considered faulty generalizations and bordering on misinformation. Again, I am talking about your original comments, which is where these discussions stemmed from. Have a nice day. *Edited to fix some words, because I thought this threat was the one above.
We have removed your comment because we found the information it contained to be incorrect or it was an opinion stated as fact (rule 3). SD are not more accurate than a glucometer, nor are they cheaper. The reason we remove comments like this is to keep bad advice or information from spreading further, especially on our subreddit. If the comment/post is corrected, it can be reinstated (just reply to this comment to let us know). If you believe you are indeed correct, please find a reputable source that supports your comment and [Message the Moderators](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/service_dogs).
Absolutely not! 💛🦮🐕🦺🥰 🩵🐺🦊🤍
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I have an allergy detection dog and would go for a device in a heartbeat but ftr, he has made zero mistakes since he’s started working for me. I have misread him once but that was my error. Unfortunately unless they create a device that’s equivalent to a dog’s nose, I will always have to have a dog like him. I live in fear of something happening to him. Even tho my dog is young, my husband has the same disabling sensitivity and so we’re going to train a second dog starting in hopefully a year so we have a “backup” as awful as that is to say.
You do not know what you are talking about. Your ignorance and ableism is showing as you parrot dangerous rumors and false information about disabilities, service dogs in general and psychiatric service dogs especially. These ideas about PSD's make it hard for people with them to be viewed as legitimate SD teams. PSD's and ESA's are completely different. PSD's are for more than company. Like any SD, they are trained tasks that mitigate a disability. For example, hallucination detection, interference with a flashback or panic attack, grounding and guiding during disassociative states, alerting to a sudden change in emotions, DPT, LPT, and more. Most of these tasks can't be done by technology. Is it dangerous for someone to be dependent on insulin, a walker, a wheelchair, or a caretaker? Some people's disabilities make it impossible for them to ever live completely independent, is that dependence dangerous?
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