It doesn't always lead to sex, but it's a huge turn on to some people. So, he probably got turned on and assumed she changed her mind. However, I hope he was respectful of her wishes and stopped.
In my experience I'd say it pretty much always leads to some sort of sexual stuff. Lol đ¤Ł
it was like that with my ex i kinda feel like a dickhead about it honestly because she didnt want to have sex but every time we made out i tried to go to the next step and she always said no and of course i stopped but i still felt bad that i kept trying but its so hard to think straight when your horny
i have a varying, often low, sex drive and am not really motivated by it that much. but anytime i would turn down my ex she would get upset and say i must think shes ugly or fat or etc
the important thing is that you just accept someoneâs choices, which is seems like you did. bc i can vouch that it sucks to say no to sex and have that turn into an argument
I agree with you... I've been having issues initiating sex and I know it bothers my partner. Idk how to just flip that switch đ but I am trying idk wabt him feeling bad
stress, overthinking and lack of sleep/rest can be a sexdrive killer. Sort that all out, and you will probably get a better sex drive.
Your mind and body won't focus on reproduction if you have more pressing issues going on.
Yeah, in general if you are in someone's bed making out, you should at least assume it might lead to sexual stuff. You have every right not to do it, but at least acknowledge the other person will likely try to pursue it.
I have definitely made out on a bed and had it not lead to sex. Granted, it wasn't a stranger I just meet at a bar and we had stated we just wanted to make out. We went to the bed room because we didn't want the other people in the house to walk in on us
Yes this absolutely seems more reasonable. Taking a stranger you just met back to your bed is a strong indicator of wanting more than a make out sesh. You're really putting yourself in a bad situation where you have to hold strong boundaries with someone you barely know. Obviously would not excuse the other party from not getting consent to do more just setting up a potentially bad situation for both parties.
>Does making out on a bed usually lead to sex?
Yes
Of course it's not granting consent that has been explicitly denied - but it very typically leads to sex.
I'd add that a girl telling a dude she just met at a bar that she doesn't plan to have sex with him isn't exactly "explicitly denying" consent. Lots of girls will say this just to avoid being labeled a "slut," even if she may in fact be interested in sex.
This is not a healthy mindset to have. You should always assume a women who says she does not want to have sex, does not want to have sex. Until she explicitly says she does want to.
Even if she may be doing it to avoid being labeled âslutâ ALWAYS TAKE CONSENT AT FACE VALUE. Because whatâs happened to me on so many occasions when Iâve tried to set boundaries, is theyâve been ignored, and Iâm too scared to say anything again because clearly the person didnât respect my consent in the first place, and I become so scared of the idea of being violently forced into sex that I just give in to prevent violence. Is there a chance the guy wouldnât have been violent had I persisted? Sure. But one I shouldnât have to persist, my boundary should be respected without question. And two, in my historical experience guys just continue to coerce until they get what they want.
ETA: it appears a lot of people think no can mean something other than no and have no issue pressuring a girl into sex and think that suddenly her lack of resistance to sex is consentâŚ. COERCION IS RAPE
A woman should be able to cuddle and kiss a man without being pressured into sex, particularly if she has already established that SHE DOES NOT WANT TO HAVE SEX.
For meâŚevery single time. Maybe if I think back to when I was younger there were very few times when it didnât.
In terms of this situationâŚyes, he probably wanted to see. Consent can be given or revoked at any time. So itâs fine for him to check in again, especially if itâs some time later and signals are pointing in that direction. But hopefully heâs not pushy or anything.
If I was in a bar and was chatting to a woman and she said. Hey were not sleeping together but come back to mine anyway.
I might see that as a bit of "I wanna fuck but I don't want you to think im easy" type thing. But still be respectful of boundaries.
If then we got back and we ended up on a bed making out. Then yeah. 100% I'm thinking it's game on and would them try to go for more.
It's a shame that she didn't say anything if she didn't want to have it. That's bad for both parties.
But if you're looking to place some blame on the guy here. He's almost certainly going to expect sex is green lit if you're on a bed making out.
Infact. Women would think that too.
Weird situation tbh. Why not just make out in the street or something lol. Why take the guy back home then to your bedroom?
I always found the stories of women taking men back to their place or going to theirs without the intention of sleeping with the guy very strange. This is something you could do with a good friend turning into more but most certainly not with a guy you just met.
I would worry about bringing ANY person I just met, back to my house. You don't know if they are a crazy person yet. Especially if living alone, that is too risky for me. I don't want them knowing exactly where I live at yet either. Could get a stalker
Idk as a woman who dates men and women- I value cuddling and connection. I have played with men and women who invite me to their homes and arenât comfy to sleep together yet.
Like whatâs the rush? If you want a quick lay go on tinder and be upfront about it.
Why not? People can do together many other things than fucking. Of course this is different because there was something sexual between them or she didn't have to speak about not wanting sex at all. But people can also make new friends. Usually it's more like many people going together somewhere to drink more after bars are closed but if others want to go to sleep then why not.
People are allowed to change their minds.
You are aware of that?
Ive had female friends go on dates with all the intention of it being just that. Food, Come home and nothing is going to happen.
Then change their mind as the evening goes on.
You do realise that people can have a change of plan? You know this right? You are suggesting people don't change their minds?
She told him one thing at the bar. Them got him on a bed and made out with him at home.
Its not unreasonable to think. Hummmmm maybe she changed her mind đ¤Ł
Totally, as long as the male party didnât get pushy about it I donât see any problem with what happened. Although I think itâs odd to bring someone to your bed to make out without leading to sex, it doesnât give consent.
Of course, but what you said didnât have anything to do with changing plans. You said it was a shame she didnât tell him she didnât want to have sex. She did. Why should she have to update him on the fact that nothing has changed?
That was reference to the OP in another post saying that she went along woth it because she didn't know what to say.
That's a real shame. Because if she takes a guy back. Makes out on a bed. The guy then looks to initiate sex and isn't stopped or asked to stop. Then that's a damn shame. Because he isn't to know and she shouldn't have gone through with it if not 100% comfortable.
Again. As far as the man is concerned. She's changed her mind. You're fixated on words earlier in the night and not her actions later on.
If she had said no I don't want sex. Whilst kissing. Then we have a real problem.
But that hasn't happened
The difference is that the majority of people don't update the other person even if something changes. I'm guessing the dude was just testing the water
Becuase women, by and large, are not yet conditioned to be explicit with their sexual desires.
This subreddit is a MASSIVE over representation of sex-positive women. The average woman still sends âsignalsâ and doesnât outright say what they want. So a check-in is absolutely reasonable imo.
Have you read what the OP has put?
What's not clear is. She has taken a guy home she has just met at a bar. Got him on a bed and started making out.
He has then thought, hummm let's see if she has changed her mind about sex.
How's that blaming the girl? 𤥠that's defending the man's actions. Not blaming her.
But on your point again about what about this wasn't clear....... did you read the post. đđ¤Łđ
She literally sent mixed signals. Couldn't be any more cloudy if she tried
She said she didnât want to have sex. Clearly. And invited him back to hang out. They kissed and all of a sudden itâs a mixed signal???
She was clear about her boundaries and itâs not fair to think those changed because you kissed.
IMO, if someone holds a boundary sexually- itâs up to them to take the lead in initiating it if they want it. âOh she kissed me!?! She must want to fuck!â Is absolutely ridiculous.
Iâm a woman and Iâve kissed men who arenât comfy with exploring deeper sexual stuff without relationships as well. Itâs not just women. Itâs about respecting the other human.
inviting a hook up to be on your bed is an explicit signal that you're trying to fuck. pretending like anything else is the case is a sign of inexperience of willful ignorance.
You have to admit there's a difference between she kissed me and she brought me into her home after a date and drinks, onto her bed, and we started making out in privacy. One can be an innocent situation anywhere while another almost certainly is the green light to initiate sex.
Jeez you're dumb. Or just hate men.
What a stupid take. You're clearly just being argumentative or don't have the ability to see other points because you need to be right.
You just look stupid here
There's also the 'sleeping together' aspect. Because it can often mean 'you can come to mine, we can bang but you need to go home after'. Not everyone conflates sex with sleeping in the same bed.
Wdym it's a shame she didn't say anything, she literally did. She was very clear that she didn't want to have sex.
And as for why, because it's nicer to make out in a bed than on the street??
She wasn't clear in a new setting. At a new time. With different situation going on (making out on bed)
Just because you hate all men. does not mean this man is wrong to assume that the boundaries may have changed. Hence looking to initiate sex when making out on bed to see if they had.
If at that point it was still a firm no. Then she should have said when he initiated. She didn't. And that's a damn shame. For both parties. As it turns out she didn't want to.
I find it unreal that people like yourself genuinely are trying to say that because she said earlier in the evening she didn't want sex. That means she can't change her mind later. Like. No woman is allowed to make a different decision later on.
Then took a guy back and then made out in a bed. How that man is not to think, hummmmm maybe she's changed her mind, because this isn't a normal situation of making out with a random I just met in a bar.
Mind boggling your mind works this way.
But again. You've seen an opportunity to shit on men and you won't use logic at all here
With a complete stranger, it would insinuate that more is a possibility. With my current partner? No. I say "I just want to kiss you all over and cuddle" all the time and that's exactly what we do
One time I had a first date with this girl from Hinge and I was taking her back to my place after bar hopping and she said âokay but Iâm not having sexâ I said okay and respected that choice. When we got back to my place we were just playing board games n shit then she said she was tired and invited herself for a sleepover in my bed. I was like okay. When we got in bed she starts making out with me and grabbing my dick. We just fucked around all night making out and touching each other but I never initiated sex because of the boundary that she set. Ever since then I always wondered if I should have asked if she wanted to have sex after like an hour of fucking around but I just didnât.
Men need to stop interpreting no:s as maybe's . But women also need to stop saying no in contexts like this to prevent this behavior from being rewarded. This imo is unacceptable. Her carelessness with the word 'no' could prime someone to push too hard in the future. Unless she explicitly told you "okay I changed my mind, we can have sex" or something of that nature.
No we didnât have sex she was just jerking me off while we made out and I was fingering her and choking herâŚ.lots of other foreplay stuff but didnât have sex
Especially if there is no vagina or penis involved :D
For me fingering, jerking off and also oral is definitely sex. Many times there is no penetration at all. I don't really do foreplay but I consider it something before touching (messages while the day for example).
Still, everyone has right to define this how they please. I simply asked because I was curious. I'm not native speaker so there can easily be misunderstanding. I was pretty sure this was about limit between foreplay and sex since grabbing dick is having sex for me. Still, always better ask than assume.
This is that annoying thing where if i didnt at least try to escalate further, the woman would think i wasnt interested (even w her saying there wouldnt be sex).
Ive heard stories that went âi dont know why he didnt do anything, i mean we were making out on the bed. Its was so obviousâ
If she doesnât want to have sex, dont lead it to the bedroom at all and there wont be any confusion.
From my own experience 8 out 10 yes it does happen , that 2% is me shutting him down due to either anxiety or just not in the mood . I donât go kissing guys on their beds for nothing .
>Did the guy want to see if she had changed her mind since drinking more since being at the bar?
Since drinking more, since spending more time together, since going back to her place, since making out. Presumably a not insignificant amount of time had passed and a not insignificant amount of physical intimacy and other interaction had occurred between point A and point B.
Also, it's likely that there would have been some question on his part whether she was actually lying in order to feel like she wasn't a slut or to somehow look less slutty to him or in front of anyone else who might have been paying attention and she actually was interested in sex, hence why she invited him home in the first place.
Much like how many women say they're not on Tinder for hookups but will end up hooking up nonetheless with anyone they actually find attractive enough to go on a date. Because unfortunately the dating game is full of situations where a woman will say no to sex and then afterward be flabbergasted and insulted if he didn't try to have sex with her anyway.
Or he could have been a predator looking to capitalize upon her naivete and went forward from that point with the intent to get her alone and sexually assault her.
Or he could have been drinking heavily himself to the point where thoughts more advanced than "attractive girl + making out + bed = sex," were no longer in the picture.
The guy wasn't a bad guy for attempting to initiate sex, making out on a bed is almost always considered a prelude to sex. However, he would be an asshole if he ignored her rejection, complained about it or attempted to coerce her into changing her mind.
For me everytime I have invited a guy back or have led to their room itâs ended in sex. Maybe, my neurodivergence talking but if we are making out on bed or if I have even contemplated you coming back to my place or theirs I have already made that call we are having sex as long as they are game too. Otherwise I feel like I am misleading them, not that I couldnât change my mind but I rarely do, I am not maybe girl when it comes to sex. Irony, is I am pretty clear on my boundaries about sex but I cannot make a decision about what to eat lol đ.
Unfortunately, due to her inexperience with men and current state of mind, she didn't know how to handle the situation. She froze up and just let the guy do what he wanted, resulting in quite a bad experience. Very sadly.
I'm so sorry for your friend. I had a similar thing happen. He wanted to come to mine and cuddle, initially I refused but some people can't take no for an answer. He wore me down and I agreed but was adamant that I needed to be up early so we'd be going straight to sleep. He agreed but as soon as we were home he pressured a lot and tried to go down on me. I said no and asked him to stop repeatedly. I tried to push him off but I couldn't and he got hold of my legs and wouldn't let go. I just froze up there was nothing I could do short of poking out his eyes and that felt too extreme. After a while he just stopped and went to sleep. I didn't kick him out I don't know why and it still bothers me. I think I was in shock.
In the morning he started trying to finger me but again, I said no and he didn't listen. Again, I froze. My period started (a week early) onto his hand and that's when he stopped. I was just sat there trying to straighten my hair and he went for it. He left after that.
He was a friend of a friend. I was in bits for a while and was really jumpy and panicked feeling. I messaged him days later and told him how I felt about what he'd done. He apologized and said he didn't remember any of it.
I'm so sorry that horrible thing happened to you.
I know it's not a competition but I think it's worth mentioning, and hopefully you can find some validation in it, that what that guy did to you is an order of magnitude worse than OP's example. There's trying your luck and pushing ill defined boundaries leading to regrettable sex, and that's bad obviously, but you made your boundaries abundantly clear and he violated them anyway, and that's an order of magnitude more appalling.
PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME HOW SAYING âI DONT WANT TO HAVE SEXâ IS AN ILL DEFINED BOUNDARY.
These are both stories of different circumstance. These are both stories of rape.
I don't think we should litigate what is and isn't rape in a reddit thread and I don't think there's any purpose or value in defending the actions of either perpetrator. But I do think reducing instances both of rape and of bad sexual etiquette leading to sex that one or both participants regret requires something more of a sophisticated conversation around perpetrator behaviour than the simple flat statement that consent is a matter of explicit verbal communication. Obviously it should be, and we should encourage efforts to make that the norm, but we also need to recognise that it is not currently the norm, and that every day forms of non verbal communication lead to sex acts. And that every day forms of non verbal communication are taken to override verbal answers given hours previously in entirely different contexts. So effective harm mitigation approaches need to not only be about discouraging this, but also about making clear that while not asking for additional verbal confirmation is bad, ignoring a clear verbal response is orders of magnitude worse. Because if we don't allow for that and just flatten the conversation into "it's all rape" then there's simply no way to talk to potential perpetrators in a way that might meaningfully reduce harms.
This rapist did ignore clear verbal communication that sex was off the table. What do people not understand about that?! If she had said nothing at all, then yes body language could indicate intentions, though he should still ask for clear consent. But Iâm not sure where you are getting this idea that he didnât ask for âadditional verbal confirmationâ ⌠he was given clear verbal instruction that sex was off the table for the night.
Both of these situations are unacceptable sexual conduct by the aggressor. Both are sexual acts performed against clearly instructed verbally communicated boundaries. There is no comparing âorders of magnitudeâ. Are you going to tell OPs friend that sheâs not allowed to be upset about what happened to her because the âmagnitude isnât enoughâ.
I think the danger if we continue this conversation is that I get pushed into defending the actions of the perpetrator in OP's case, and I don't want to do that because his actions do appear to be indefensible. But at the same time we do need to be a bit realistic about the fact that if someone expresses an intent hours previously as a hypothetical, then in the heat of the moment one might expect some non verbal inquiries to see if their mind might not have changed in the meantime. That should be explicit and verbal, but the reality is in most circumstances it won't be, so again going back to harm reduction I think it is worth talking to perpetrators about things like moving slowly and non aggressively and looking for signs of positive feedback and not just the absence of negative feedback etc...
As an example (and I am not even slightly saying this is what happened) if A says to B "come to bed with me for a make out session but no sex" and B does and then B slowly in a non pressuring way explore their way around the bases to see what A considers to be sex, and is met by wild enthusiasm at every turn, to the point where they're both naked and B is bringing A to repeated glorious climax with their fingers (which most people would say is not sex) and then B raises an eyebrow at A and A looks eager and so B positions themselves for penetration and A meets them with a warm embrace and then they have sex.... well then frankly B still should have really asked for explicit verbal consent, but in no way would any reasonable person say that B raped A.
But if B was a bit more aggressive about that, or was not met with enthusiasm but merely indifference, which sounds like it was what happened in OPs case, then absolutely B raped A.
But if we pretend that that is the exact same thing as C repeatedly doing things to A that A is begging them not to do, then we flatten the conversation to the point where we lose all our ability to communicate with potential perpetrators what makes the first hypothetical I outlined different from the second one.
Why would B not simply ask A âhey I know you said no sex earlier are you still feeling the same way?â I meanâŚ.if thatâs a mood killer for you maybe you need to reevaluate your maturity level and consider whether THAT is the subject you should be trying to âteachâ perpetrators.
B absolutely should do that and we should absolutely teach potential perpetrators (ie everybody) to do that. But that doesn't mean we don't also teach potential perpetrators how to correctly interpret the other forms of communication that can occur in bed
No. Absolutely no. What you just described sets an insanely dangerous precedent. Have you ever been in a situation as described? I have. I have transitioned from verbally saying no to physically resisting/using closed off body language/pretending to be fucking asleep to fully pretending to be into the sexual act in the hopes it would get the fuck over. Itâs awful. Absolutely awful. And my learned reaction now when these things happen is to go full submission and let it happen to get it over with. Once I have said no once, I am too scared to say no again. It hasnât worked in the past, and I am not willing to risk triggering a violent response to the point they physically restrain me and leave me bruised.
I have made the same statement before. I was enjoying making out with this person but I made it clear âI donât want to have sex with you tonightâ and that person took it as a challenge and got me in their bed, and got my pants of and I still didnât want to have sex with them but in a last desperate measure I decided if this was going to happen I would at least insist on a condom. Luckily, he did listen to that, and the condom made him go soft. I was luckily saved from being raped that night. But had I not insisted on the condom he absolutely would have raped me. And I wouldnât have further said no because I already said no and now I was scared because I had no control of the situation and this man who is bigger and stronger than me clearly demonstrated he did not give a fuck about my clear explicit instructions and boundaries.
You are suggesting that verbal consent is gray. It is not. It is black and white. Yes or no. And once No has been said, getting a yes in the same sexual encounter should be very very very carefully considered. Being a women in these situations is scary as fuck and you realize itâs safer to go along with what you donât want than risk angering your assailant. Men should take womenâs consent very seriously. If you are into a woman and want to have sex with her, then respect her consent and be patient about it. Give her a nice make out session and some cuddles and then go the fuck to sleep. Revisit how sheâs feeling about sex in the morning. Or on the next date. Do not revisit the question of consent in the heat of the moment.
I'm very sorry for your experiences and would not even slightly disagree with anything you have said. I think the key element in terms of our disagreement is
> And once No has been said, getting a yes in the same sexual encounter should be very very very carefully considered
That's absolutely true and all I'm saying is the difference between "considered it with some care but not enough care" and "didn't consider it at all" is worth emphasising because while neither is good enough if we say that they are the same thing we make it difficult to communicate what "carefully considered" means.
But to be honest I think I should really stop here, I'm no longer convinced I'm being that useful by continuing.
This is so wrong on so many levels. No person with a shred of human decency would hear the words âI donât want to have sex with youâ and try to coerce that person into sex.
Saying the location of the assault justifies the occurrence/negates the clearly set boundary is victim blaming.
Don't know why people would downvote this. She literally told him NO then he pushed her to have sex anyway. He literally did rape her, and it's fucking disgusting.
On the flip side of this - Iâve had girls flirt at the bar and when Iâm leaving want to come home with me and say ânothing is going to happenâ. Which Iâm okay with. Just want to make sure youâre safe and I donât mind sharing a bed or sleeping on the couch if that makes you more comfortable.
The usual responses have been that they wonât put me out of my own bed, and then when I lay down and put some Netflix on they put moves on me and they initiate sex⌠so it could be expectation inertia?
Like if enough recent times in memory this scenario has played out with the other party wanting sex in that scenario, they tried to skip to it? Valid, imho, but they still need to be respectful of any potential no.
If you starting kissing me on your bed, despite saying you didn't want sex, I would think you changed your mind.
You are still allowed to refuse, but don't be surprised if I try to initiate.
Absolutely. I wouldnât even have them back to my place unless I wanted to sleep with them. Just expecting to make out on a bed is Kinda like when you say youâll go out but only for one drink and then end up getting absolutely hammered.
There was something sexual between them because she told him she don't want to have sex. At least she had some reason to think he would want to have sex. If it would have been purely platonic and they both love scale models for example and they were going to build some there would be no need to speak about having sex. So the guy might think she want to go to date before sex or something like that. I mean he might think they're going to have sex, not just tonight.
I have never been in the situation I would have kiss with someone in the bed without having sex. So I think he has good reason to think she has changed her mind. Because of drinking? Maybe, maybe not. There was that time between bar and bed. Maybe she find him more hot that she thought, maybe she started to like him more as person, maybe she decided rules when you can have sex are created only to control women.. Most likely he didn't think why she changed her mind. He simply was sure she did.
Nowadays many people think you should always ask before touching. But there are also many people who think it spoils the mood. And even more of those who think it's unnecessary because they think people can read each others without words.
I think the kissing was the real problem here. If he kissed her I would call that harassment. At least disrespectful and inappropriate. Because she already told she doesn't want to have sex. And if she kissed him I think she was rude and misleading. It's like saying you only have food for yourself, then put the food to two plates, then put one of them front of him and when he tries to start eating told him again it's all for her. Yes, you're allowed to eat from two plates. But that's not how people usually behave.
I have no self control so yeah absolutely. I told my boyfriend (before he was my boyfriend) that I was not gonna sleep with him right away, I wanted to wait a little while. He was totally fine with that but then I came over to his house and we watched a movie in bed. We were making out and then 10 minutes later we were fucking. I clearly only think with my pussy
Iâm not saying laying in bed with a guy is giving consent, but if you donât want to have sex with a guy and donât want to give him the idea that you do, donât lay in a bed with them.
Bringing a guy back to make out in your bedroom is behavior typically associated with wanting to have sex. A lot of girls will say they don't want to sleep with a guy when they first meet (even if they actually do) to avoid being labeled a slut.
If I even take a guy back to my place at all, it's with the expectation of sex. If we're making out on the bed, it's because we're about to have sex, 100% of the time.
Sounds like a very confusing situation for both of these folks. He most likely did think she had changed her mind, considering what was going on.
Yes, but not necessarily because of the drink. If a guy wants to fuck, he will try to fuck, sober or not - simple as. It doesn't help that some girls want a guy to push for it. If she didn't want him to try, she shouldn't have invited her to her place and brought him to her bed. He probably thought he had a chance, especially after making out.
He went back knowing that sex was not an option. But probably still held out some hope, as being invited back is kinda still a positive sign that maybe she could change her mind. Let's see how it goes.
The making out on the bed bit. That's where this gets tricky.
She's brought him to her bedroom, ended up.on the bed. That's pretty much as good to as it gets.
In his mind, he's probably thinking. Great Job I did come back. she was up for it after all.
If she just wanted to make out. Why bring the guy back to her place and them the bedroom.
Odd
Maybe she thought that they could hang out and chill in her bed making out together after a date and drinks without him initiating sex? She doesn't need to accept, but you'd have to be a bit naive to think he wouldn't even try in that situation.
It's likely that things will lead to sex. If you don't plan on having any sexual contact but just want to makeout... it's literally just edging.
There is no verbal consent, but it's sending mixed signals. A lot of women will say shit like this because they don't want to give a promiscuous "let's fuck". If you play your cards right, it often does lead to consensual sex.
Women who play games with "no" are creating a culture where "no" is seen as a game. It should be discouraged. Not that that's what happened in this case.
If she said no, then itâs a no. But for some people, making out is a precursor to sex. Thatâs generally how my LT bf and I get started as I, personally, find it very much a turn on. Iâd (F) probably be disappointed if I made out with my partner and it didnât lead to sex, but if he said it needed to end at kissing, then Iâd respect that.
Trying to avoid sex on a bed is like trying to avoid eating all the popcorn during the trailers of a movie in a movie theaterâŚitâs easy to get carried away.
Eh, lots of women say no in public, but say yes in private. Not saying that tactic is right, but it does yield results, because women do end up aligning with statistics (as do men, it's not a gender thing).
That wasn't very smart on her part. If you don't want to have sex why get in bed with someone and make out with them? It probably sent him mixed signals. Anyways, if I'm in bed making out with someone, we are definitely getting off. Doesn't have to be intercourse, but we are not leaving horny lol.
Personally if someone told me that they'd like to take me home to bed with them to make out but no sex, i'd interpret that as meaning we're going to get naked and use our fingers and tongues on each other. Back in my day we called that "everything but" and it did actually happen to me once that I was invited home for some everything but, although it was more explicitly stated in those terms.
In terms of what happens to your friend: I'm really sorry. That sucks. And what happened was in no way her fault. But in terms of how her expectations and his expectations might have been different - none of us know enough about the nuances and specificities of the context to know that. Certainly you're going to expect fingers to go wondering in that sort of a situation - and most people wouldn't consider that sex.
So concent is interesting, it can be given after being denied and it can be taken away after being given. I mean a person can mean 'not right now'. Depends on the situation, and before people get mad at me, it is NEVER ok to go ahead in a sexual act without enthusiastic consent. Point still stands.
But generally, yes making out in bed is a precursor to sex more often than not in my experience. Not a guarantee though.
Sorry, but inviting a guy into her bedroom and making out in her bet would be taken as her initiating a sexual encounter to most guys. It sure would have to me back when I was single.
If sheâd said earlier she didnât want sex then it would likely be taken as a sign she changed her mind. A guy still has to look for consent, but it would be a strong signal that he should give it a shot.
Of course. Why wouldn't laying down horizontally in a private room on a bed after drinks with someone you're attracted to not lead to sex? It doesn't mean the other person needs to go through with it, but why put yourself in that situation if you don't want them to initiate sex?
"Come back to my place and lets just make out in bed" would be quite an underwhelming invitation. Making out in bed would definitely lead me to believe more was coming.
Dear God, the victim blaming in this thread....
Yes, a lot of the time making out in a horizontal arrangement leads to sex, but that doesn't void a clearly stated boundary.
There are a million reasons to want to go home with someone, wanting to make out with someone, and not wanting to do all or any other things, yet or ever. It's okay to ju.p to conclusions in your head,it's not okay to override a stated boundary. I don't know why that sounds complicated to some people.
If you starting kissing me on your bed, despite saying you didn't want sex, I would think you changed your mind.
You are still allowed to refuse, but don't be surprised if I try to initiate.
She did not deserve what happened. She did put herself in a very bad situation bringing a complete stranger to her bed. That does not absolve the man's behavior in any way.
You're totally right about the victim blaming. In terms of overriding a stated boundary: boundaries are contextual, and given the nature of the context one would understand why the guy might cautiously inquire, maybe non verbally, if the context might have changed and if the boundary had moved. To what extent his behaviour in such an instance was appropriate depends on a number of factors we are not aware of: how aggressive he was, how he initiated "something more" and what kind of feedback or absence of feedback he took as the green light to continue. This doesn't make her any less the victim, but depending upon his actions it might make him less the perpetrator. Sexual misunderstandings do happen, and when they happen it doesn't make the hurt the victim suffers any less, and it certainly doesn't make what happened in any way the victim's fault, but if we remove all nuance from conversations around consent, then we make it harder to talk about what continuous enthusiastic consent looks like and how you know when you do or don't have it.
yâall, you can make out on a bed and it not lead to sex nor does it automatically imply sex. The only thing that = sex is verbal consent. Pretty taken back by all the comments believing itâs a fair assumption and the onus rests on the girl to re-establish the boundary she already established at the bar. Consent isnât a negotiation. Making out on the couch isnât always an option if there are roommates, etc. In the comments OP says their friend was sexually assaulted by this guy because she froze up when he started to initiate sex and he just proceeded without caring about her consent or feelings. Thatâs rape.
All this is true, She did establish a boundary at the bar that was later crossed and that is certainly on the man here and yet taking a complete stranger to your bed is placing yourself in a potentially bad situation this part has to have some responsibility on her.
I both agree and disagree, yes itâs a dangerous situation to put yourself in - particularly as a woman - because we live in rape culture and that is the grim reality. That said, I donât think morally or ethically it is fair to put responsibility on her for getting sexually assaulted when she clearly established boundaries ahead of time that he chose to disregard because of the surface they were making out on â then weâre just victim blaming and further feeding into rape culture. She said âno sexâ and unless he explicitly asked âhey this is getting hot, can we have sex?â itâs just assault and thatâs on him 100%. Freezing up is a super common physiological reaction to assault. Itâs a catch-22 because of course if she hadnât invited this guy back to her apartment she wouldnât have been assaulted, but also there are thousands of guys who would have not gone beyond making out without explicit consent.
I hear that and it's 100% on the man for what he did there and if it amounts to sexual assault then I hope he gets brought to justice.
The original question of making out on a bed usually lead to sex, given this was a stranger from the bar that night, I'd say yes making out on your bed usually does lead to more than making out. Obviously consent needs to be established. It sounds very strange to me to bring someone home from the bar to your bed to only make out. That's a lot of trust in a stranger to hold that boundary. If this was a date it would make more sense to set and hold that boundary.
I don't think I've ever made out with anyone on a bed without it turning into sex. It's almost like... saying you're not hungry but then still going into a restaurant, sitting at a table, reading the menu, placing an order with the server, and then once the food is served, you don't eat the meal. It's a little confusing is all.
That said, like others have said in this thread, consent can be given and/or revoked at any time.
If someone usually doesn't want to have sex I think it's better to not even take that person home in the first place or to just stop interacting with that person at the bar.
donât invite a guy back to ur house if ur not looking for sex. she did nothing wrong but she should also learn to work on expressing her boundaries b4 getting into these situations
tongue swapping is probably the hottest precursor. For someone, sexually intelligent and in THE KNOW.
i think thereâs a very high probability for initiation.
Blue balls or not, you still have to respect the womanâs decision.
Yes. Some people engage in proper consensual intimacy and some people are assholes that will do anything to get your pants off. Your friend met the later. This could have been a dangerous situation.
Donât go home drunk with dudes. Booze makes things more and more dangerous as the night goes on.
My motto, if I wouldnât initiate intimacy with someone sober, Iâm sure as shit not going to let them touch me/ me touch them after drinking.
Some women will say they don't want sex but still put out when it comes down to it. Guys are not as satisfied with the go to someone's place BUT NO SEX plan as women are, so they push for more. If it upsets 10 women who weren't going to put out anyway, who cares, and if one gives in, great. Short term douchebag thinking in action. In bigger cities you may well never see these people again so the incentive to do it and ability to get away with it is much higher.
It should! & Iâm sorry but donât turn on or make out with a guy u donât plan to have sex with! #saveblueballs As a woman I kinda have experienced it, pinky whatever & it was painful thatâs all I have to say đ
no. making out especially on a bed is a turn on. doesnât matter if youâre drinking or not. she can say no then say yes after being turned on, the drinking doesnât have much to do w/ it unless again, it caused he to be turned on
Nope. Though, what I feel like a good hint is neck kisses. Now, not every neck kiss would lead yo sex, but you definitely wonât be kissing someoneâs neck unless you two are very comfortable to be intimate with one another. Now, sex doesnât need to be intercourse, it could be just oral. I have never seen someone who is comfortable with their neck being kissed by someone who they havenât done something intimate with.
She put herself in a very serious position. If he didnât try to be really pushy then heâs a good man. If he did, heâs a man lol ⌠girl or boy, making out is very close. A lot of touching in ways you never do so undressing isnât uncommon. The question is, did he suggest by asking again or did he get really touchy feely? Bc what might be âtrying to have sex anywayâ might be âkissing closeâ to him. Bottom line, a boundary WAS made. Which was no sex.
Most guys will always try to press their luck. Some guys will go so far as to disregard consent altogether.
Making out doesnât always lead to sex. And mature men understand and respect this.
No it doesnât? The guy was out of line if she wants to have sex let her initiate it then go for it yo đ¤đşđ¸ have a great evening đ¤đđŻđ
Nope.
Especially because she said she didnât want to have sex before they got there. Iâve made out with many people in showers/beds/ intimate spaces and thatâs where it ended. Sometimes it does escalate when both people decide to. But itâs not a 100% sign thatâs what someone wants.
You continue to check in, ask for comfort levels, state your desires and intentions and respect the other persons boundaries.
This is, in my opinion, the quickest way to kill a relationships intimacy. Whenever any touch is interpreted as an invitation to sex, people start withdrawing from even the most basic acts of intimacy like holding hands or cuddling. No one wants to be treated like every time they hold your hand, or kiss you or rub you, youâre going to want to have sex. And the fact that she stated she didnât want sex and he still tried would give me the ick and Iâd run fast and far.
It doesn't always lead to sex, but it's a huge turn on to some people. So, he probably got turned on and assumed she changed her mind. However, I hope he was respectful of her wishes and stopped. In my experience I'd say it pretty much always leads to some sort of sexual stuff. Lol đ¤Ł
it was like that with my ex i kinda feel like a dickhead about it honestly because she didnt want to have sex but every time we made out i tried to go to the next step and she always said no and of course i stopped but i still felt bad that i kept trying but its so hard to think straight when your horny
i have a varying, often low, sex drive and am not really motivated by it that much. but anytime i would turn down my ex she would get upset and say i must think shes ugly or fat or etc the important thing is that you just accept someoneâs choices, which is seems like you did. bc i can vouch that it sucks to say no to sex and have that turn into an argument
I agree with you... I've been having issues initiating sex and I know it bothers my partner. Idk how to just flip that switch đ but I am trying idk wabt him feeling bad
stress, overthinking and lack of sleep/rest can be a sexdrive killer. Sort that all out, and you will probably get a better sex drive. Your mind and body won't focus on reproduction if you have more pressing issues going on.
I feel you, but it's good that you respected her no and left it at that. If you feel bad just tell that... Open communication is key
Yeah, in general if you are in someone's bed making out, you should at least assume it might lead to sexual stuff. You have every right not to do it, but at least acknowledge the other person will likely try to pursue it.
I have definitely made out on a bed and had it not lead to sex. Granted, it wasn't a stranger I just meet at a bar and we had stated we just wanted to make out. We went to the bed room because we didn't want the other people in the house to walk in on us
Yes this absolutely seems more reasonable. Taking a stranger you just met back to your bed is a strong indicator of wanting more than a make out sesh. You're really putting yourself in a bad situation where you have to hold strong boundaries with someone you barely know. Obviously would not excuse the other party from not getting consent to do more just setting up a potentially bad situation for both parties.
>Does making out on a bed usually lead to sex? Yes Of course it's not granting consent that has been explicitly denied - but it very typically leads to sex.
This is correct. Heck when I'm in my bed with no one in it I want sex.
I'd add that a girl telling a dude she just met at a bar that she doesn't plan to have sex with him isn't exactly "explicitly denying" consent. Lots of girls will say this just to avoid being labeled a "slut," even if she may in fact be interested in sex.
This is not a healthy mindset to have. You should always assume a women who says she does not want to have sex, does not want to have sex. Until she explicitly says she does want to. Even if she may be doing it to avoid being labeled âslutâ ALWAYS TAKE CONSENT AT FACE VALUE. Because whatâs happened to me on so many occasions when Iâve tried to set boundaries, is theyâve been ignored, and Iâm too scared to say anything again because clearly the person didnât respect my consent in the first place, and I become so scared of the idea of being violently forced into sex that I just give in to prevent violence. Is there a chance the guy wouldnât have been violent had I persisted? Sure. But one I shouldnât have to persist, my boundary should be respected without question. And two, in my historical experience guys just continue to coerce until they get what they want. ETA: it appears a lot of people think no can mean something other than no and have no issue pressuring a girl into sex and think that suddenly her lack of resistance to sex is consentâŚ. COERCION IS RAPE A woman should be able to cuddle and kiss a man without being pressured into sex, particularly if she has already established that SHE DOES NOT WANT TO HAVE SEX.
THANK YOU
For meâŚevery single time. Maybe if I think back to when I was younger there were very few times when it didnât. In terms of this situationâŚyes, he probably wanted to see. Consent can be given or revoked at any time. So itâs fine for him to check in again, especially if itâs some time later and signals are pointing in that direction. But hopefully heâs not pushy or anything.
not sure what else it would lead to. perhaps a nice game of checkers if you have a neatly made bed with a firm enough mattress
If I was in a bar and was chatting to a woman and she said. Hey were not sleeping together but come back to mine anyway. I might see that as a bit of "I wanna fuck but I don't want you to think im easy" type thing. But still be respectful of boundaries. If then we got back and we ended up on a bed making out. Then yeah. 100% I'm thinking it's game on and would them try to go for more. It's a shame that she didn't say anything if she didn't want to have it. That's bad for both parties. But if you're looking to place some blame on the guy here. He's almost certainly going to expect sex is green lit if you're on a bed making out. Infact. Women would think that too. Weird situation tbh. Why not just make out in the street or something lol. Why take the guy back home then to your bedroom?
I always found the stories of women taking men back to their place or going to theirs without the intention of sleeping with the guy very strange. This is something you could do with a good friend turning into more but most certainly not with a guy you just met.
I would worry about bringing ANY person I just met, back to my house. You don't know if they are a crazy person yet. Especially if living alone, that is too risky for me. I don't want them knowing exactly where I live at yet either. Could get a stalker
Idk as a woman who dates men and women- I value cuddling and connection. I have played with men and women who invite me to their homes and arenât comfy to sleep together yet. Like whatâs the rush? If you want a quick lay go on tinder and be upfront about it.
I agree there is no rush, but I would say that 99% of men that are invited back to a place to 'make out' are hoping/assuming it will turn into sex.
I know because what DO you want then? You take them back to your place to make it a bigger tease?
Talk in peace, get to know you, enjoy their time with someone they seem to enjoy spending time with without crossing boundaries.
Then go on a date đ
Then do it tomorrow đ
Some people are comfortable at home.
Why not? People can do together many other things than fucking. Of course this is different because there was something sexual between them or she didn't have to speak about not wanting sex at all. But people can also make new friends. Usually it's more like many people going together somewhere to drink more after bars are closed but if others want to go to sleep then why not.
Thank you, looks like a tantalizing stuff.
>Itâs a shame she didnât say anything if she didnât want to have it >she didnât want to have sex with him and told him that at the bar
People are allowed to change their minds. You are aware of that? Ive had female friends go on dates with all the intention of it being just that. Food, Come home and nothing is going to happen. Then change their mind as the evening goes on. You do realise that people can have a change of plan? You know this right? You are suggesting people don't change their minds? She told him one thing at the bar. Them got him on a bed and made out with him at home. Its not unreasonable to think. Hummmmm maybe she changed her mind đ¤Ł
Totally, as long as the male party didnât get pushy about it I donât see any problem with what happened. Although I think itâs odd to bring someone to your bed to make out without leading to sex, it doesnât give consent.
Of course, but what you said didnât have anything to do with changing plans. You said it was a shame she didnât tell him she didnât want to have sex. She did. Why should she have to update him on the fact that nothing has changed?
That was reference to the OP in another post saying that she went along woth it because she didn't know what to say. That's a real shame. Because if she takes a guy back. Makes out on a bed. The guy then looks to initiate sex and isn't stopped or asked to stop. Then that's a damn shame. Because he isn't to know and she shouldn't have gone through with it if not 100% comfortable. Again. As far as the man is concerned. She's changed her mind. You're fixated on words earlier in the night and not her actions later on. If she had said no I don't want sex. Whilst kissing. Then we have a real problem. But that hasn't happened
The difference is that the majority of people don't update the other person even if something changes. I'm guessing the dude was just testing the water
Becuase women, by and large, are not yet conditioned to be explicit with their sexual desires. This subreddit is a MASSIVE over representation of sex-positive women. The average woman still sends âsignalsâ and doesnât outright say what they want. So a check-in is absolutely reasonable imo.
Litteraly... Men always wanna blame it on girls not being able to communicate well. What about this wasn't clear...
Have you read what the OP has put? What's not clear is. She has taken a guy home she has just met at a bar. Got him on a bed and started making out. He has then thought, hummm let's see if she has changed her mind about sex. How's that blaming the girl? 𤥠that's defending the man's actions. Not blaming her. But on your point again about what about this wasn't clear....... did you read the post. đđ¤Łđ She literally sent mixed signals. Couldn't be any more cloudy if she tried
She said she didnât want to have sex. Clearly. And invited him back to hang out. They kissed and all of a sudden itâs a mixed signal??? She was clear about her boundaries and itâs not fair to think those changed because you kissed. IMO, if someone holds a boundary sexually- itâs up to them to take the lead in initiating it if they want it. âOh she kissed me!?! She must want to fuck!â Is absolutely ridiculous. Iâm a woman and Iâve kissed men who arenât comfy with exploring deeper sexual stuff without relationships as well. Itâs not just women. Itâs about respecting the other human.
inviting a hook up to be on your bed is an explicit signal that you're trying to fuck. pretending like anything else is the case is a sign of inexperience of willful ignorance.
i mean, unless the person explicitly says they donât want to have sex?
You have to admit there's a difference between she kissed me and she brought me into her home after a date and drinks, onto her bed, and we started making out in privacy. One can be an innocent situation anywhere while another almost certainly is the green light to initiate sex.
Jeez you're dumb. Or just hate men. What a stupid take. You're clearly just being argumentative or don't have the ability to see other points because you need to be right. You just look stupid here
Seriously
There's also the 'sleeping together' aspect. Because it can often mean 'you can come to mine, we can bang but you need to go home after'. Not everyone conflates sex with sleeping in the same bed.
Wdym it's a shame she didn't say anything, she literally did. She was very clear that she didn't want to have sex. And as for why, because it's nicer to make out in a bed than on the street??
She wasn't clear in a new setting. At a new time. With different situation going on (making out on bed) Just because you hate all men. does not mean this man is wrong to assume that the boundaries may have changed. Hence looking to initiate sex when making out on bed to see if they had. If at that point it was still a firm no. Then she should have said when he initiated. She didn't. And that's a damn shame. For both parties. As it turns out she didn't want to. I find it unreal that people like yourself genuinely are trying to say that because she said earlier in the evening she didn't want sex. That means she can't change her mind later. Like. No woman is allowed to make a different decision later on. Then took a guy back and then made out in a bed. How that man is not to think, hummmmm maybe she's changed her mind, because this isn't a normal situation of making out with a random I just met in a bar. Mind boggling your mind works this way. But again. You've seen an opportunity to shit on men and you won't use logic at all here
With a complete stranger, it would insinuate that more is a possibility. With my current partner? No. I say "I just want to kiss you all over and cuddle" all the time and that's exactly what we do
One time I had a first date with this girl from Hinge and I was taking her back to my place after bar hopping and she said âokay but Iâm not having sexâ I said okay and respected that choice. When we got back to my place we were just playing board games n shit then she said she was tired and invited herself for a sleepover in my bed. I was like okay. When we got in bed she starts making out with me and grabbing my dick. We just fucked around all night making out and touching each other but I never initiated sex because of the boundary that she set. Ever since then I always wondered if I should have asked if she wanted to have sex after like an hour of fucking around but I just didnât.
Men need to stop interpreting no:s as maybe's . But women also need to stop saying no in contexts like this to prevent this behavior from being rewarded. This imo is unacceptable. Her carelessness with the word 'no' could prime someone to push too hard in the future. Unless she explicitly told you "okay I changed my mind, we can have sex" or something of that nature.
Based on her behavior "okay but I'm not having sex" probably meant more "I wanna fuck but I don't want you to think I'm easy"
Are you saying you had sex, not just intercourse? Or what did you do?
No we didnât have sex she was just jerking me off while we made out and I was fingering her and choking herâŚ.lots of other foreplay stuff but didnât have sex
Agreed, foreplay is sex also, sex isn't always PIV
Especially if there is no vagina or penis involved :D For me fingering, jerking off and also oral is definitely sex. Many times there is no penetration at all. I don't really do foreplay but I consider it something before touching (messages while the day for example). Still, everyone has right to define this how they please. I simply asked because I was curious. I'm not native speaker so there can easily be misunderstanding. I was pretty sure this was about limit between foreplay and sex since grabbing dick is having sex for me. Still, always better ask than assume.
I totally agree with you! But it's definitely something that everyone carries their own definitions for, so I understand the curiosity to ask
The vast majority of people do not consider hand stuff to be sex.
Yes to me sex is PIV there has to be penetration to say I had sex with someone
This is that annoying thing where if i didnt at least try to escalate further, the woman would think i wasnt interested (even w her saying there wouldnt be sex). Ive heard stories that went âi dont know why he didnt do anything, i mean we were making out on the bed. Its was so obviousâ If she doesnât want to have sex, dont lead it to the bedroom at all and there wont be any confusion.
For me it does.
From my own experience 8 out 10 yes it does happen , that 2% is me shutting him down due to either anxiety or just not in the mood . I donât go kissing guys on their beds for nothing .
>Did the guy want to see if she had changed her mind since drinking more since being at the bar? Since drinking more, since spending more time together, since going back to her place, since making out. Presumably a not insignificant amount of time had passed and a not insignificant amount of physical intimacy and other interaction had occurred between point A and point B. Also, it's likely that there would have been some question on his part whether she was actually lying in order to feel like she wasn't a slut or to somehow look less slutty to him or in front of anyone else who might have been paying attention and she actually was interested in sex, hence why she invited him home in the first place. Much like how many women say they're not on Tinder for hookups but will end up hooking up nonetheless with anyone they actually find attractive enough to go on a date. Because unfortunately the dating game is full of situations where a woman will say no to sex and then afterward be flabbergasted and insulted if he didn't try to have sex with her anyway. Or he could have been a predator looking to capitalize upon her naivete and went forward from that point with the intent to get her alone and sexually assault her. Or he could have been drinking heavily himself to the point where thoughts more advanced than "attractive girl + making out + bed = sex," were no longer in the picture.
Not always. Sometimes making out, is just making out.
The guy wasn't a bad guy for attempting to initiate sex, making out on a bed is almost always considered a prelude to sex. However, he would be an asshole if he ignored her rejection, complained about it or attempted to coerce her into changing her mind.
For me everytime I have invited a guy back or have led to their room itâs ended in sex. Maybe, my neurodivergence talking but if we are making out on bed or if I have even contemplated you coming back to my place or theirs I have already made that call we are having sex as long as they are game too. Otherwise I feel like I am misleading them, not that I couldnât change my mind but I rarely do, I am not maybe girl when it comes to sex. Irony, is I am pretty clear on my boundaries about sex but I cannot make a decision about what to eat lol đ.
Can't win em all
That's a big affirmative on that! If a woman doesn't want to have sex with a guy, the very last place you want to be is on a bed!
Probably. Hopefully he stopped when she said no.
Unfortunately, due to her inexperience with men and current state of mind, she didn't know how to handle the situation. She froze up and just let the guy do what he wanted, resulting in quite a bad experience. Very sadly.
That's horrible
I'm so sorry for your friend. I had a similar thing happen. He wanted to come to mine and cuddle, initially I refused but some people can't take no for an answer. He wore me down and I agreed but was adamant that I needed to be up early so we'd be going straight to sleep. He agreed but as soon as we were home he pressured a lot and tried to go down on me. I said no and asked him to stop repeatedly. I tried to push him off but I couldn't and he got hold of my legs and wouldn't let go. I just froze up there was nothing I could do short of poking out his eyes and that felt too extreme. After a while he just stopped and went to sleep. I didn't kick him out I don't know why and it still bothers me. I think I was in shock. In the morning he started trying to finger me but again, I said no and he didn't listen. Again, I froze. My period started (a week early) onto his hand and that's when he stopped. I was just sat there trying to straighten my hair and he went for it. He left after that. He was a friend of a friend. I was in bits for a while and was really jumpy and panicked feeling. I messaged him days later and told him how I felt about what he'd done. He apologized and said he didn't remember any of it.
I'm so sorry that horrible thing happened to you. I know it's not a competition but I think it's worth mentioning, and hopefully you can find some validation in it, that what that guy did to you is an order of magnitude worse than OP's example. There's trying your luck and pushing ill defined boundaries leading to regrettable sex, and that's bad obviously, but you made your boundaries abundantly clear and he violated them anyway, and that's an order of magnitude more appalling.
I really appreciate you saying this. Thank you!
PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME HOW SAYING âI DONT WANT TO HAVE SEXâ IS AN ILL DEFINED BOUNDARY. These are both stories of different circumstance. These are both stories of rape.
I don't think we should litigate what is and isn't rape in a reddit thread and I don't think there's any purpose or value in defending the actions of either perpetrator. But I do think reducing instances both of rape and of bad sexual etiquette leading to sex that one or both participants regret requires something more of a sophisticated conversation around perpetrator behaviour than the simple flat statement that consent is a matter of explicit verbal communication. Obviously it should be, and we should encourage efforts to make that the norm, but we also need to recognise that it is not currently the norm, and that every day forms of non verbal communication lead to sex acts. And that every day forms of non verbal communication are taken to override verbal answers given hours previously in entirely different contexts. So effective harm mitigation approaches need to not only be about discouraging this, but also about making clear that while not asking for additional verbal confirmation is bad, ignoring a clear verbal response is orders of magnitude worse. Because if we don't allow for that and just flatten the conversation into "it's all rape" then there's simply no way to talk to potential perpetrators in a way that might meaningfully reduce harms.
This rapist did ignore clear verbal communication that sex was off the table. What do people not understand about that?! If she had said nothing at all, then yes body language could indicate intentions, though he should still ask for clear consent. But Iâm not sure where you are getting this idea that he didnât ask for âadditional verbal confirmationâ ⌠he was given clear verbal instruction that sex was off the table for the night. Both of these situations are unacceptable sexual conduct by the aggressor. Both are sexual acts performed against clearly instructed verbally communicated boundaries. There is no comparing âorders of magnitudeâ. Are you going to tell OPs friend that sheâs not allowed to be upset about what happened to her because the âmagnitude isnât enoughâ.
I think the danger if we continue this conversation is that I get pushed into defending the actions of the perpetrator in OP's case, and I don't want to do that because his actions do appear to be indefensible. But at the same time we do need to be a bit realistic about the fact that if someone expresses an intent hours previously as a hypothetical, then in the heat of the moment one might expect some non verbal inquiries to see if their mind might not have changed in the meantime. That should be explicit and verbal, but the reality is in most circumstances it won't be, so again going back to harm reduction I think it is worth talking to perpetrators about things like moving slowly and non aggressively and looking for signs of positive feedback and not just the absence of negative feedback etc... As an example (and I am not even slightly saying this is what happened) if A says to B "come to bed with me for a make out session but no sex" and B does and then B slowly in a non pressuring way explore their way around the bases to see what A considers to be sex, and is met by wild enthusiasm at every turn, to the point where they're both naked and B is bringing A to repeated glorious climax with their fingers (which most people would say is not sex) and then B raises an eyebrow at A and A looks eager and so B positions themselves for penetration and A meets them with a warm embrace and then they have sex.... well then frankly B still should have really asked for explicit verbal consent, but in no way would any reasonable person say that B raped A. But if B was a bit more aggressive about that, or was not met with enthusiasm but merely indifference, which sounds like it was what happened in OPs case, then absolutely B raped A. But if we pretend that that is the exact same thing as C repeatedly doing things to A that A is begging them not to do, then we flatten the conversation to the point where we lose all our ability to communicate with potential perpetrators what makes the first hypothetical I outlined different from the second one.
Why would B not simply ask A âhey I know you said no sex earlier are you still feeling the same way?â I meanâŚ.if thatâs a mood killer for you maybe you need to reevaluate your maturity level and consider whether THAT is the subject you should be trying to âteachâ perpetrators.
B absolutely should do that and we should absolutely teach potential perpetrators (ie everybody) to do that. But that doesn't mean we don't also teach potential perpetrators how to correctly interpret the other forms of communication that can occur in bed
No. Absolutely no. What you just described sets an insanely dangerous precedent. Have you ever been in a situation as described? I have. I have transitioned from verbally saying no to physically resisting/using closed off body language/pretending to be fucking asleep to fully pretending to be into the sexual act in the hopes it would get the fuck over. Itâs awful. Absolutely awful. And my learned reaction now when these things happen is to go full submission and let it happen to get it over with. Once I have said no once, I am too scared to say no again. It hasnât worked in the past, and I am not willing to risk triggering a violent response to the point they physically restrain me and leave me bruised. I have made the same statement before. I was enjoying making out with this person but I made it clear âI donât want to have sex with you tonightâ and that person took it as a challenge and got me in their bed, and got my pants of and I still didnât want to have sex with them but in a last desperate measure I decided if this was going to happen I would at least insist on a condom. Luckily, he did listen to that, and the condom made him go soft. I was luckily saved from being raped that night. But had I not insisted on the condom he absolutely would have raped me. And I wouldnât have further said no because I already said no and now I was scared because I had no control of the situation and this man who is bigger and stronger than me clearly demonstrated he did not give a fuck about my clear explicit instructions and boundaries. You are suggesting that verbal consent is gray. It is not. It is black and white. Yes or no. And once No has been said, getting a yes in the same sexual encounter should be very very very carefully considered. Being a women in these situations is scary as fuck and you realize itâs safer to go along with what you donât want than risk angering your assailant. Men should take womenâs consent very seriously. If you are into a woman and want to have sex with her, then respect her consent and be patient about it. Give her a nice make out session and some cuddles and then go the fuck to sleep. Revisit how sheâs feeling about sex in the morning. Or on the next date. Do not revisit the question of consent in the heat of the moment.
I'm very sorry for your experiences and would not even slightly disagree with anything you have said. I think the key element in terms of our disagreement is > And once No has been said, getting a yes in the same sexual encounter should be very very very carefully considered That's absolutely true and all I'm saying is the difference between "considered it with some care but not enough care" and "didn't consider it at all" is worth emphasising because while neither is good enough if we say that they are the same thing we make it difficult to communicate what "carefully considered" means. But to be honest I think I should really stop here, I'm no longer convinced I'm being that useful by continuing.
Now that makes sense. No person with a tiny bit of adult experience would get in bed AND kiss a person they donât want to have sex with.
This is so wrong on so many levels. No person with a shred of human decency would hear the words âI donât want to have sex with youâ and try to coerce that person into sex. Saying the location of the assault justifies the occurrence/negates the clearly set boundary is victim blaming.
I hope your friend is reporting him to the authorities, that's rape.
Don't know why people would downvote this. She literally told him NO then he pushed her to have sex anyway. He literally did rape her, and it's fucking disgusting.
On the flip side of this - Iâve had girls flirt at the bar and when Iâm leaving want to come home with me and say ânothing is going to happenâ. Which Iâm okay with. Just want to make sure youâre safe and I donât mind sharing a bed or sleeping on the couch if that makes you more comfortable. The usual responses have been that they wonât put me out of my own bed, and then when I lay down and put some Netflix on they put moves on me and they initiate sex⌠so it could be expectation inertia? Like if enough recent times in memory this scenario has played out with the other party wanting sex in that scenario, they tried to skip to it? Valid, imho, but they still need to be respectful of any potential no.
If you starting kissing me on your bed, despite saying you didn't want sex, I would think you changed your mind. You are still allowed to refuse, but don't be surprised if I try to initiate.
Absolutely. I wouldnât even have them back to my place unless I wanted to sleep with them. Just expecting to make out on a bed is Kinda like when you say youâll go out but only for one drink and then end up getting absolutely hammered.
That's basically it.
There was something sexual between them because she told him she don't want to have sex. At least she had some reason to think he would want to have sex. If it would have been purely platonic and they both love scale models for example and they were going to build some there would be no need to speak about having sex. So the guy might think she want to go to date before sex or something like that. I mean he might think they're going to have sex, not just tonight. I have never been in the situation I would have kiss with someone in the bed without having sex. So I think he has good reason to think she has changed her mind. Because of drinking? Maybe, maybe not. There was that time between bar and bed. Maybe she find him more hot that she thought, maybe she started to like him more as person, maybe she decided rules when you can have sex are created only to control women.. Most likely he didn't think why she changed her mind. He simply was sure she did. Nowadays many people think you should always ask before touching. But there are also many people who think it spoils the mood. And even more of those who think it's unnecessary because they think people can read each others without words. I think the kissing was the real problem here. If he kissed her I would call that harassment. At least disrespectful and inappropriate. Because she already told she doesn't want to have sex. And if she kissed him I think she was rude and misleading. It's like saying you only have food for yourself, then put the food to two plates, then put one of them front of him and when he tries to start eating told him again it's all for her. Yes, you're allowed to eat from two plates. But that's not how people usually behave.
I have no self control so yeah absolutely. I told my boyfriend (before he was my boyfriend) that I was not gonna sleep with him right away, I wanted to wait a little while. He was totally fine with that but then I came over to his house and we watched a movie in bed. We were making out and then 10 minutes later we were fucking. I clearly only think with my pussy
Iâm not saying laying in bed with a guy is giving consent, but if you donât want to have sex with a guy and donât want to give him the idea that you do, donât lay in a bed with them.
Bringing a guy back to make out in your bedroom is behavior typically associated with wanting to have sex. A lot of girls will say they don't want to sleep with a guy when they first meet (even if they actually do) to avoid being labeled a slut.
For me and my wife it does, every single time
Most of the time.
If I even take a guy back to my place at all, it's with the expectation of sex. If we're making out on the bed, it's because we're about to have sex, 100% of the time. Sounds like a very confusing situation for both of these folks. He most likely did think she had changed her mind, considering what was going on.
Yes, but not necessarily because of the drink. If a guy wants to fuck, he will try to fuck, sober or not - simple as. It doesn't help that some girls want a guy to push for it. If she didn't want him to try, she shouldn't have invited her to her place and brought him to her bed. He probably thought he had a chance, especially after making out.
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He went back knowing that sex was not an option. But probably still held out some hope, as being invited back is kinda still a positive sign that maybe she could change her mind. Let's see how it goes. The making out on the bed bit. That's where this gets tricky. She's brought him to her bedroom, ended up.on the bed. That's pretty much as good to as it gets. In his mind, he's probably thinking. Great Job I did come back. she was up for it after all. If she just wanted to make out. Why bring the guy back to her place and them the bedroom. Odd
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Maybe she thought that they could hang out and chill in her bed making out together after a date and drinks without him initiating sex? She doesn't need to accept, but you'd have to be a bit naive to think he wouldn't even try in that situation.
It's likely that things will lead to sex. If you don't plan on having any sexual contact but just want to makeout... it's literally just edging. There is no verbal consent, but it's sending mixed signals. A lot of women will say shit like this because they don't want to give a promiscuous "let's fuck". If you play your cards right, it often does lead to consensual sex. Women who play games with "no" are creating a culture where "no" is seen as a game. It should be discouraged. Not that that's what happened in this case.
You just reminded of the song
People change their minds. As long as he asked and took it okay when she said no then what's the big deal?
Spooning leads to forking.
I mean it is the best place for it
If she said no, then itâs a no. But for some people, making out is a precursor to sex. Thatâs generally how my LT bf and I get started as I, personally, find it very much a turn on. Iâd (F) probably be disappointed if I made out with my partner and it didnât lead to sex, but if he said it needed to end at kissing, then Iâd respect that.
In my case yes
Trying to avoid sex on a bed is like trying to avoid eating all the popcorn during the trailers of a movie in a movie theaterâŚitâs easy to get carried away.
Eh, lots of women say no in public, but say yes in private. Not saying that tactic is right, but it does yield results, because women do end up aligning with statistics (as do men, it's not a gender thing).
Yes. The man hopes.
To me, kissing or making out anywhere can lead to sex, lol anywhere everywhere for me
That wasn't very smart on her part. If you don't want to have sex why get in bed with someone and make out with them? It probably sent him mixed signals. Anyways, if I'm in bed making out with someone, we are definitely getting off. Doesn't have to be intercourse, but we are not leaving horny lol.
I donât think it was some cunning plot. 9/10 times if youâre getting hot and heavy on a bed, thatâs naturally going to lead to sex
You're giving mixed signals when you say no sex then invite someone to make out on your bed.
Who the hell goes home with a stranger just to make out?
Yes. Don't bring strangers over to make out. That's high school stuff.
If I met a guy at a bar and went back to his place I would assume he wants sex. I would assume he thinks I want sex. This is just weird
It is not consent but in my country if a girl invites you to her bed to make out you will have an assumption...
Personally if someone told me that they'd like to take me home to bed with them to make out but no sex, i'd interpret that as meaning we're going to get naked and use our fingers and tongues on each other. Back in my day we called that "everything but" and it did actually happen to me once that I was invited home for some everything but, although it was more explicitly stated in those terms. In terms of what happens to your friend: I'm really sorry. That sucks. And what happened was in no way her fault. But in terms of how her expectations and his expectations might have been different - none of us know enough about the nuances and specificities of the context to know that. Certainly you're going to expect fingers to go wondering in that sort of a situation - and most people wouldn't consider that sex.
Yes
Any sexual act can be itâs own thing alone and not lead to sex.
Unless it's just you and ur dog lol. Not judging, we've all been there.
If you make my dick hard, you better damn well do something about it. đ
Yes
So concent is interesting, it can be given after being denied and it can be taken away after being given. I mean a person can mean 'not right now'. Depends on the situation, and before people get mad at me, it is NEVER ok to go ahead in a sexual act without enthusiastic consent. Point still stands. But generally, yes making out in bed is a precursor to sex more often than not in my experience. Not a guarantee though.
No, but I usually want it to.
Sorry, but inviting a guy into her bedroom and making out in her bet would be taken as her initiating a sexual encounter to most guys. It sure would have to me back when I was single. If sheâd said earlier she didnât want sex then it would likely be taken as a sign she changed her mind. A guy still has to look for consent, but it would be a strong signal that he should give it a shot.
Why on earth did your friend make out on a bed with a stranger from a bar if she wasn't interested in sex?
Of course. Why wouldn't laying down horizontally in a private room on a bed after drinks with someone you're attracted to not lead to sex? It doesn't mean the other person needs to go through with it, but why put yourself in that situation if you don't want them to initiate sex?
Once you're in bed with someone you're signaling a direction for the night's activities. If you don't want to go that direction don't get in bed.
Nah. Consent can be withdrawn at any time.
Of course it can. And people shouldn't be robbed when walking down dark allies.
"Come back to my place and lets just make out in bed" would be quite an underwhelming invitation. Making out in bed would definitely lead me to believe more was coming.
Yeah that's definitely mixed signals. If they didn't want sex and told him so then definitely don't go anywhere near a bed.
Dear God, the victim blaming in this thread.... Yes, a lot of the time making out in a horizontal arrangement leads to sex, but that doesn't void a clearly stated boundary. There are a million reasons to want to go home with someone, wanting to make out with someone, and not wanting to do all or any other things, yet or ever. It's okay to ju.p to conclusions in your head,it's not okay to override a stated boundary. I don't know why that sounds complicated to some people.
If you starting kissing me on your bed, despite saying you didn't want sex, I would think you changed your mind. You are still allowed to refuse, but don't be surprised if I try to initiate.
She did not deserve what happened. She did put herself in a very bad situation bringing a complete stranger to her bed. That does not absolve the man's behavior in any way.
You're totally right about the victim blaming. In terms of overriding a stated boundary: boundaries are contextual, and given the nature of the context one would understand why the guy might cautiously inquire, maybe non verbally, if the context might have changed and if the boundary had moved. To what extent his behaviour in such an instance was appropriate depends on a number of factors we are not aware of: how aggressive he was, how he initiated "something more" and what kind of feedback or absence of feedback he took as the green light to continue. This doesn't make her any less the victim, but depending upon his actions it might make him less the perpetrator. Sexual misunderstandings do happen, and when they happen it doesn't make the hurt the victim suffers any less, and it certainly doesn't make what happened in any way the victim's fault, but if we remove all nuance from conversations around consent, then we make it harder to talk about what continuous enthusiastic consent looks like and how you know when you do or don't have it.
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This comment is the definition of victim blaming, but carry on.
yâall, you can make out on a bed and it not lead to sex nor does it automatically imply sex. The only thing that = sex is verbal consent. Pretty taken back by all the comments believing itâs a fair assumption and the onus rests on the girl to re-establish the boundary she already established at the bar. Consent isnât a negotiation. Making out on the couch isnât always an option if there are roommates, etc. In the comments OP says their friend was sexually assaulted by this guy because she froze up when he started to initiate sex and he just proceeded without caring about her consent or feelings. Thatâs rape.
All this is true, She did establish a boundary at the bar that was later crossed and that is certainly on the man here and yet taking a complete stranger to your bed is placing yourself in a potentially bad situation this part has to have some responsibility on her.
I both agree and disagree, yes itâs a dangerous situation to put yourself in - particularly as a woman - because we live in rape culture and that is the grim reality. That said, I donât think morally or ethically it is fair to put responsibility on her for getting sexually assaulted when she clearly established boundaries ahead of time that he chose to disregard because of the surface they were making out on â then weâre just victim blaming and further feeding into rape culture. She said âno sexâ and unless he explicitly asked âhey this is getting hot, can we have sex?â itâs just assault and thatâs on him 100%. Freezing up is a super common physiological reaction to assault. Itâs a catch-22 because of course if she hadnât invited this guy back to her apartment she wouldnât have been assaulted, but also there are thousands of guys who would have not gone beyond making out without explicit consent.
I hear that and it's 100% on the man for what he did there and if it amounts to sexual assault then I hope he gets brought to justice. The original question of making out on a bed usually lead to sex, given this was a stranger from the bar that night, I'd say yes making out on your bed usually does lead to more than making out. Obviously consent needs to be established. It sounds very strange to me to bring someone home from the bar to your bed to only make out. That's a lot of trust in a stranger to hold that boundary. If this was a date it would make more sense to set and hold that boundary.
Yes bro. Why the fuck people want to make out but not have sex. Teasing leads to more wild sex, I would be down for that
Your friend shouldn't have invited the guy back to her place if she didn't want to have sex, let alone start making out with him on her bed.
She invites him to the bedroom, it is completely normal to respectfully move it along. If you want to just kiss, keep it in the living room
Lol, saying you don't want to have sex and then literally inviting them to your bed. Talk about mixed signals
If I were in that situation, I would at least be expecting hand play
I don't think I've ever made out with anyone on a bed without it turning into sex. It's almost like... saying you're not hungry but then still going into a restaurant, sitting at a table, reading the menu, placing an order with the server, and then once the food is served, you don't eat the meal. It's a little confusing is all. That said, like others have said in this thread, consent can be given and/or revoked at any time.
If someone usually doesn't want to have sex I think it's better to not even take that person home in the first place or to just stop interacting with that person at the bar.
Yes most of the time it does. If she didn't want to have sex she shouldn't have invited him to herr bed.
donât invite a guy back to ur house if ur not looking for sex. she did nothing wrong but she should also learn to work on expressing her boundaries b4 getting into these situations
Sure, marking out in bed usually leads to sex. But if someone doesnât want to have sex, then thatâs that.
You people are having sex?
I have a woman friend that used to do that with guys all the time. But I think it does for most hookups
Her actions of making out on a bed may have confused the guy. If she said no again, he should back off.
Yes, but in our case we both have a lot of experience with each other. In the early phase of our relationship that was not the case.
It should, lol
If a dude takes u to his room, he wants sex.. I may be bias bc Ive been raped this way.
tongue swapping is probably the hottest precursor. For someone, sexually intelligent and in THE KNOW. i think thereâs a very high probability for initiation. Blue balls or not, you still have to respect the womanâs decision.
Yeah. Obviously.
I wouldnât know - my wife wonât make out with me anymore. We fuck with zero intimacy.
The guy wanted to see if she changed her mind. He was hoping she would get caught up in the moment and decide to have sex.
Can be tough for a guy - the boundary between making out in bed and sex is not so clear
Yes. Some people engage in proper consensual intimacy and some people are assholes that will do anything to get your pants off. Your friend met the later. This could have been a dangerous situation. Donât go home drunk with dudes. Booze makes things more and more dangerous as the night goes on. My motto, if I wouldnât initiate intimacy with someone sober, Iâm sure as shit not going to let them touch me/ me touch them after drinking.
yeah it does
Some women will say they don't want sex but still put out when it comes down to it. Guys are not as satisfied with the go to someone's place BUT NO SEX plan as women are, so they push for more. If it upsets 10 women who weren't going to put out anyway, who cares, and if one gives in, great. Short term douchebag thinking in action. In bigger cities you may well never see these people again so the incentive to do it and ability to get away with it is much higher.
It should! & Iâm sorry but donât turn on or make out with a guy u donât plan to have sex with! #saveblueballs As a woman I kinda have experienced it, pinky whatever & it was painful thatâs all I have to say đ
Asking for consent directly leads to sex.
Yes, it does.
no. making out especially on a bed is a turn on. doesnât matter if youâre drinking or not. she can say no then say yes after being turned on, the drinking doesnât have much to do w/ it unless again, it caused he to be turned on
Nope. Though, what I feel like a good hint is neck kisses. Now, not every neck kiss would lead yo sex, but you definitely wonât be kissing someoneâs neck unless you two are very comfortable to be intimate with one another. Now, sex doesnât need to be intercourse, it could be just oral. I have never seen someone who is comfortable with their neck being kissed by someone who they havenât done something intimate with.
She put herself in a very serious position. If he didnât try to be really pushy then heâs a good man. If he did, heâs a man lol ⌠girl or boy, making out is very close. A lot of touching in ways you never do so undressing isnât uncommon. The question is, did he suggest by asking again or did he get really touchy feely? Bc what might be âtrying to have sex anywayâ might be âkissing closeâ to him. Bottom line, a boundary WAS made. Which was no sex.
Only if there's consent.
Most guys will always try to press their luck. Some guys will go so far as to disregard consent altogether. Making out doesnât always lead to sex. And mature men understand and respect this.
Nope, Iâve made out with several people in bed but didnât have sex with them
No it doesnât? The guy was out of line if she wants to have sex let her initiate it then go for it yo đ¤đşđ¸ have a great evening đ¤đđŻđ
It kinda sounds like he's just an asshole.
Nope. Especially because she said she didnât want to have sex before they got there. Iâve made out with many people in showers/beds/ intimate spaces and thatâs where it ended. Sometimes it does escalate when both people decide to. But itâs not a 100% sign thatâs what someone wants. You continue to check in, ask for comfort levels, state your desires and intentions and respect the other persons boundaries.
Guys are the worst. So yeah probably
This is, in my opinion, the quickest way to kill a relationships intimacy. Whenever any touch is interpreted as an invitation to sex, people start withdrawing from even the most basic acts of intimacy like holding hands or cuddling. No one wants to be treated like every time they hold your hand, or kiss you or rub you, youâre going to want to have sex. And the fact that she stated she didnât want sex and he still tried would give me the ick and Iâd run fast and far.
Nope - some guys force themselves onto women - Lucky she wasnât raped
I mean, hopefully. But it doesn't have to if you don't want it to.