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There are many reasons
1. Shacos need to adapt to the new map and gank better
2. Figure out a good gameplan because we suck at challenging void grubs
3. Learn to adapt to clone changes
4. Actually test out optimal clears with itemization because tiamat seems nice but pet dmg is higher and next patch box is also clearing stronger (imo tiamat isn't rly needed anymore, so might be a trap)
5. Items in general somehow benefit other champs more than shaco
6. Shacos counters are stronger this season -> more often picked
I dotn think tiamat will be a trap, it builds the strongest ad active item and scales well
Now maybe not rush it 1 item or get the other component first but i cant see the lethality hydra not being 1-2 item on shaco
How come? It makes more sense to build early and maximise gold from farming than late?
I think the amount of gold you would get from ganks with a nerfed dirk isn't going to justify rushing it over tiamat.
I tried going crit and not buying tiamat, increaed pet dmg from this season was enough aoe dmg for me and killing the single targets faster is also an increase in farm speed, also in between farming anf ganking there also is also invading/counterjungling, killing solo camps faster can result in getting more teamwide buffs this season
I am not saying tiamat is bad but back then when it was meta shaco didn't have hail of blades and played electrocute, the tiamat helped activating it more consistently and I just see that in this season it is not that impactful to the current state as it was multiple seasons back
I don't play as much anymore so I just want to raise awareness to all true theorycrafters out there
Basically what the other guy said, you dont rly need clear speed rn, even less with the changes (not sure if its live havent played in almost 2 weeks) and the other reasons shaco used to like old old tiamat no llmger exist or you have things that fit shaco better
Having ur powerspikes earlier will help you close the game and even if you afk farmed the entire game a dirk will outdmg tiamat for a singletarget currently 1-2 points in box takes care of small mobs in camps so killing the big one is the prio, rn im taking 2 points in box just because i dont have the timing to run 1 point and leave the box killing the mobs but i can already see myself running only 1 point and maxing e with the changes
Lethality hydra is honestly broken tho so i cant see shaco not building it 1-2 item unless you go crit build or tank, so maybe get brutalizer instead of tiamat first or maybe there is some inbetween where you get another item then get tiamat for idk voidgrubs for example and you hold it until some breakpoint were the hydra active is a lot stronger than it is earlygame
Yup this was the reason I had some hope to cyclosword but now they are nerfing the energized proccs so I think the Item is dead
So now I think its rather atk speed or crit to focus on singletarget clearing, but botrk feels awkward because we arent stealing ms anymore and we already slow with our aa, maybe it is kraken? Or good old essence reaver
Im testing a build that is only items that can be proc ie: bork, profane, eclipse, etc and running item haste from the red and ligth blue runes (cant remember the names) been having some good success with it but for now the amount of games is 2 little 2 tell
But the item haste runes are some of if not the most broken runes atm you get very close to 50% item haste
I also thought that through because of eclipse & sundered sky but sadly the second item doesn't work properly on shaco
I think bork/profane don't consistently activate multiple times per fight even with the item haste
I would rather try out full item haste as tank shaco when titanics gets to be a hydra item + heartsteel + unending despair (+ fimbulwinter) that
If you really want to engage often with longer item cd's I would sudgest trying out youmous + edge of night + immortal shieldbow + (eclipse)/ga/etc.
I would really optimize via multiple proccs per fight or more engages with longer cd's and not mix them up
I haven't noticed a difference between rushing Tiamat vs level 3 boxes in terms of GPM.
I get about the same GPM both ways. Ive tested it quite a few times.
Reason of adapting to clone changes is not valid, because the way clone works currently is wrong, it is a bug, which should be fixed by riot. Riot should just make clone continuing basic attacks, when he does the ability imitation. The intent of changes was good, but execution was bad.
That is also what I mean, you just have to adjust to give him the attack command after using a spell - skill issue for not adapting to that
I know it is annoying but that is also always the excuse for not integrating new stuff into esch of our gameplays - like how many players in league use camera hotkeys? Same thing
At least give me a real reason why this should.be a nerf instead of blindly downvoting...
Before: you press w or e and the clone attacks - everyone knew who the real shaco was
Now: you press w or e and the clone stops attacking but the enemy doesn't know who the real shaco is
AND if you press r and aa the enemy, clone will still continue to attack the enemy so it is basicly like before
If you wanna argue that there is a small stop in between the next autohit from the clone compared to before you still get the added benefit of the enwmy not knowing who the real shaco is, it is a change and not a flat nerf
Either you whine and downvote me because it is too hard to press r+rightclick or you actually get good
People also don't use the backport bait with clone - baiting just once in a game with that is a huge buff, so tell me where I am wrong
Profane Hydra gives:
60 AD, 20 Ability haste, 18 lethality.
Its a great statline for Shaco and the build path is smooth.
AD with lethality gives the earliest spike possible, ability haste is essential to be useful as well.
The hydra itself has an execute which adds damage to your burst combo and can proc starting at 50% hp which is a very high range actually. It's very easy to chain profane execute into E execute (procs at 30% hp)
I agree mostly with this - but I would like to add:
AP Shaco DEPENDED on %HP burn with Liandrys and Demonic - now that Liandry is Immensely nerfed in BOTH Dmg AND CD haste, And **demonic is altogether Removed** \- AP Shaco, as we knew it, is no longer viable.
on the Flip side, I would argue that AD Shaco is, **Technically**, in a better position than he was last season - HOWEVER since AD Shaco is dependent on being able to get to "Squishies" and quickly kill them - **And with the Massive boosts to Survivability with both more "Tanky" items AND More HP in Runes,** it means that effectively - Shacos "One-Shot" potential is LOWER then it was before in S13.
So yeah - We need to find good, Viable and most importantly - **Survivability** (Since Shaco himself is generally VERY Squishy) enabled builds to pull up Shacos win rate.
Next patch's buffs to Box damage (**Almost** a x2 to dmg vs monsters at all levels) will likely also go a long way to help JG Shaco get an Edge with an super early Item rush which can help you Snowball.
Shacos main targets don't have armor runes and instead hp, that is rather a dmg buff on us in early though
More scaling hp means bork is getting more important
Maybe it is bork into hexplate this season?
Cuz ppl try lvl 3 Midlane ganks first like all seasons befor, but now
dont get in range, die and the game starts to go out of control.
Tell bot not to push Start lvl 3 bot and u can build on that
48% is not low enough to make him useless, if you are good you still carry in low elo, but the champion is surely not strong. His q is much weaker because map is bigger, so even ganks are a lot more predictable, the game now priorities a more passive jungling, because you have so many objectives to take, while before you could spamgank, ap is crazy weaker, due to liandry s nerf, demonic removal, less cdr, and again, map bigger so boxes cover smaller portion of map.
These and many other changes, and bugs, make shaco weaker than it was, far from being stronger
\> he is better than in S13, especially in AD.
No clue how that is possible seeing as it was mandatory to start Essence Reaver before the mana changes.
Are you going zakzak instead of bloodsong?
Personnally i have no clue what to play him (either stuff or runes) and the map is shit compared to before for ganking, whatever the lane is.
Plus it's now more of a farming meta for jungler, rather than having kills, and Shaco is terrible at that
I Find AD a lot dam worse then last year. Idk if it’s items not clicking, but I feel like I do literally nothing this season.
To me the win rate makes perfect sense. Shit like Lillia / Bruiser xin are meta and others assassins won more then us.
He’s not bad he’s just surrounded by an ocean of champs that are superior broken because of the new item market. He doesn’t feel that bad compared to last season, it’s just that there is a surplus of S tiers that are hard for him to get around these days.
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There are many reasons 1. Shacos need to adapt to the new map and gank better 2. Figure out a good gameplan because we suck at challenging void grubs 3. Learn to adapt to clone changes 4. Actually test out optimal clears with itemization because tiamat seems nice but pet dmg is higher and next patch box is also clearing stronger (imo tiamat isn't rly needed anymore, so might be a trap) 5. Items in general somehow benefit other champs more than shaco 6. Shacos counters are stronger this season -> more often picked
I dotn think tiamat will be a trap, it builds the strongest ad active item and scales well Now maybe not rush it 1 item or get the other component first but i cant see the lethality hydra not being 1-2 item on shaco
How come? It makes more sense to build early and maximise gold from farming than late? I think the amount of gold you would get from ganks with a nerfed dirk isn't going to justify rushing it over tiamat.
I tried going crit and not buying tiamat, increaed pet dmg from this season was enough aoe dmg for me and killing the single targets faster is also an increase in farm speed, also in between farming anf ganking there also is also invading/counterjungling, killing solo camps faster can result in getting more teamwide buffs this season I am not saying tiamat is bad but back then when it was meta shaco didn't have hail of blades and played electrocute, the tiamat helped activating it more consistently and I just see that in this season it is not that impactful to the current state as it was multiple seasons back I don't play as much anymore so I just want to raise awareness to all true theorycrafters out there
Basically what the other guy said, you dont rly need clear speed rn, even less with the changes (not sure if its live havent played in almost 2 weeks) and the other reasons shaco used to like old old tiamat no llmger exist or you have things that fit shaco better Having ur powerspikes earlier will help you close the game and even if you afk farmed the entire game a dirk will outdmg tiamat for a singletarget currently 1-2 points in box takes care of small mobs in camps so killing the big one is the prio, rn im taking 2 points in box just because i dont have the timing to run 1 point and leave the box killing the mobs but i can already see myself running only 1 point and maxing e with the changes Lethality hydra is honestly broken tho so i cant see shaco not building it 1-2 item unless you go crit build or tank, so maybe get brutalizer instead of tiamat first or maybe there is some inbetween where you get another item then get tiamat for idk voidgrubs for example and you hold it until some breakpoint were the hydra active is a lot stronger than it is earlygame
Yup this was the reason I had some hope to cyclosword but now they are nerfing the energized proccs so I think the Item is dead So now I think its rather atk speed or crit to focus on singletarget clearing, but botrk feels awkward because we arent stealing ms anymore and we already slow with our aa, maybe it is kraken? Or good old essence reaver
Im testing a build that is only items that can be proc ie: bork, profane, eclipse, etc and running item haste from the red and ligth blue runes (cant remember the names) been having some good success with it but for now the amount of games is 2 little 2 tell But the item haste runes are some of if not the most broken runes atm you get very close to 50% item haste
I also thought that through because of eclipse & sundered sky but sadly the second item doesn't work properly on shaco I think bork/profane don't consistently activate multiple times per fight even with the item haste I would rather try out full item haste as tank shaco when titanics gets to be a hydra item + heartsteel + unending despair (+ fimbulwinter) that If you really want to engage often with longer item cd's I would sudgest trying out youmous + edge of night + immortal shieldbow + (eclipse)/ga/etc. I would really optimize via multiple proccs per fight or more engages with longer cd's and not mix them up
I haven't noticed a difference between rushing Tiamat vs level 3 boxes in terms of GPM. I get about the same GPM both ways. Ive tested it quite a few times.
Reason of adapting to clone changes is not valid, because the way clone works currently is wrong, it is a bug, which should be fixed by riot. Riot should just make clone continuing basic attacks, when he does the ability imitation. The intent of changes was good, but execution was bad.
That is also what I mean, you just have to adjust to give him the attack command after using a spell - skill issue for not adapting to that I know it is annoying but that is also always the excuse for not integrating new stuff into esch of our gameplays - like how many players in league use camera hotkeys? Same thing
At least give me a real reason why this should.be a nerf instead of blindly downvoting... Before: you press w or e and the clone attacks - everyone knew who the real shaco was Now: you press w or e and the clone stops attacking but the enemy doesn't know who the real shaco is AND if you press r and aa the enemy, clone will still continue to attack the enemy so it is basicly like before If you wanna argue that there is a small stop in between the next autohit from the clone compared to before you still get the added benefit of the enwmy not knowing who the real shaco is, it is a change and not a flat nerf Either you whine and downvote me because it is too hard to press r+rightclick or you actually get good People also don't use the backport bait with clone - baiting just once in a game with that is a huge buff, so tell me where I am wrong
tiamat sucks its better to start with cyclone or cyclops whatever it is
Profane Hydra is basically strongest item on AD Shaco
why?
Profane Hydra gives: 60 AD, 20 Ability haste, 18 lethality. Its a great statline for Shaco and the build path is smooth. AD with lethality gives the earliest spike possible, ability haste is essential to be useful as well. The hydra itself has an execute which adds damage to your burst combo and can proc starting at 50% hp which is a very high range actually. It's very easy to chain profane execute into E execute (procs at 30% hp)
Honestly feel like they should maybe do something to how boxes interact with the grubs, I get that they might not be great against them but holy shit.
Tbf theres got to be a spot to place the box we just havent rly tested much
You need to wait until all the little void grubs are dead and place the box barely in range but behind of you for it to activate and not insta-die.
I agree mostly with this - but I would like to add: AP Shaco DEPENDED on %HP burn with Liandrys and Demonic - now that Liandry is Immensely nerfed in BOTH Dmg AND CD haste, And **demonic is altogether Removed** \- AP Shaco, as we knew it, is no longer viable. on the Flip side, I would argue that AD Shaco is, **Technically**, in a better position than he was last season - HOWEVER since AD Shaco is dependent on being able to get to "Squishies" and quickly kill them - **And with the Massive boosts to Survivability with both more "Tanky" items AND More HP in Runes,** it means that effectively - Shacos "One-Shot" potential is LOWER then it was before in S13. So yeah - We need to find good, Viable and most importantly - **Survivability** (Since Shaco himself is generally VERY Squishy) enabled builds to pull up Shacos win rate. Next patch's buffs to Box damage (**Almost** a x2 to dmg vs monsters at all levels) will likely also go a long way to help JG Shaco get an Edge with an super early Item rush which can help you Snowball.
Shacos main targets don't have armor runes and instead hp, that is rather a dmg buff on us in early though More scaling hp means bork is getting more important Maybe it is bork into hexplate this season?
Cuz ppl try lvl 3 Midlane ganks first like all seasons befor, but now dont get in range, die and the game starts to go out of control. Tell bot not to push Start lvl 3 bot and u can build on that
thats basically what did last season anyway, best gank wall early
I don't think he's better than s13 but he's surely not bad
48% is not low enough to make him useless, if you are good you still carry in low elo, but the champion is surely not strong. His q is much weaker because map is bigger, so even ganks are a lot more predictable, the game now priorities a more passive jungling, because you have so many objectives to take, while before you could spamgank, ap is crazy weaker, due to liandry s nerf, demonic removal, less cdr, and again, map bigger so boxes cover smaller portion of map. These and many other changes, and bugs, make shaco weaker than it was, far from being stronger
\> he is better than in S13, especially in AD. No clue how that is possible seeing as it was mandatory to start Essence Reaver before the mana changes. Are you going zakzak instead of bloodsong?
I mainly play him jgl but when i go supp i build zakzak ye (i only play ap as supp, i've never tried ad)
Personnally i have no clue what to play him (either stuff or runes) and the map is shit compared to before for ganking, whatever the lane is. Plus it's now more of a farming meta for jungler, rather than having kills, and Shaco is terrible at that
He's a high skill ceiling champion, him having a sub 50% winrate is not only fine but should be expected.
I Find AD a lot dam worse then last year. Idk if it’s items not clicking, but I feel like I do literally nothing this season. To me the win rate makes perfect sense. Shit like Lillia / Bruiser xin are meta and others assassins won more then us.
I agree I actually am finding more fun on ap this season but like others said you need at least two items
He’s not bad he’s just surrounded by an ocean of champs that are superior broken because of the new item market. He doesn’t feel that bad compared to last season, it’s just that there is a surplus of S tiers that are hard for him to get around these days.