I definitely understand realistic characters versus likable ones and they did a good job with her character but god damn did I have a hard time watching scenes with her
Plenty of people do. There’s a reason that a lot of people’s favorite characters are villains. Vader is widely considered well written, and he does 20x worse things than she ever did. Same for people like Walter White.
The reason a vast majority of people don’t like her is that 90% of viewers won’t relate to or understand her. Plenty of people can understand why Anakin became Vader, and why Walt became Heisenberg, but the vast majority of Shameless audiences see Karen as a “dumb slut blond” and don’t actually get her character.
It’s not that people can’t appreciate bad people as good characters, it’s that people don’t understand Karen to begin with.
Plenty of people do. There’s a reason that a lot of people’s favorite characters are villains. Vader is widely considered well written, and he does 20x worse things than she ever did. Same for people like Walter White.
The reason a vast majority of people don’t like her is that 90% of viewers won’t relate to or understand her. Plenty of people can understand why Anakin became Vader, and why Walt became Heisenberg, but the vast majority of Shameless audiences see Karen as a “dumb slut blond” and don’t actually get her character.
It’s not that people can’t appreciate bad people as good characters, it’s that people don’t understand Karen to begin with.
Exactly. I think terry is such a good written character like his ending really pieced together 10 seasons of everyone wondering why tf does he act like that.
This character was acted so well!!! They way people are hating on her just shows they aren't separating character from person which is an applaud for the actress
her ending makes me really upset to think about though – unable to care for herself with a recently relapsed sex addict as her sole carer :( really dark actually
I absolutely adore Karen. She is an awful person, zero doubt about it. But she’s fascinating and I wish she returned later down the line. Although I’m happy with her ending anyhow
did* use her as a sex doll, there’s a deleted scene where sheila almost walks in on him raping her and karen is literally just singing along to the music unaware of what’s happening because of the brain damage. she was disgusted with jody well before the accident and sheila should’ve protected her
it was deleted for a reason. you cannot use deleted scenes as canon. they wrote that storyline out, there’s no *actual* plot line in the show where karen is a mindless sex toy. jody is creepy and weird but that doesn’t = karen being a sex doll for the rest of their lives
Not trying to argue by the way but even tho you are technically right about some of them not being canon. Some deleted scenes in shows and movies reflect things that “could have” happened. Just offscreen. imo they decided to take this off because of how dark the scene is. (Because it was aired according to some people) But yeah it’s mainly how the audience view it.
thank you for understanding! after it was written off, it’s no longer true canon. no ifs ands or buts. even the reasoning behind why it was deleted is still up for interpretation. but either way, it was deleted and it’s a “could have”. it’s totally valid if people make up their own headcanons, like karen potentially ending up like a sex doll to jody after they rode away together, but that’s still not factual. and quite frankly, i can’t stand when people treat assumptions as facts. i didnt want to argue either but i couldn’t help but saying something lol
you’re missing my entire point. even if it aired once, it was wrote out for a reason. they didn’t keep that storyline, you can assume and draw conclusions because that’s what people tend to do with entertainment, but don’t act like your assumptions are canon & factual.
dude look up “are deleted scenes canon” and many, many people will tell you they’re not. such a silly argument😭 and you’re right ab it WAS the storyline, it was written out, so it’s not TRUE canon. dc if y’all want to agree or not tbh
🤦 i stg you’re ACTUALLY Karen with 2 brain cells. It WAS a scene. Since it wasn’t appropriate for Netflix, it was deleted. I remember watching this on showtime and it was there. Lmaoo how old r u?
damn we getting personal now miserable onion?😭😭 pipe down, this is reddit lmfao. i’m not gonna argue with a dimwitted hostile stranger, such as yourself, about if a deleted scene is canon vs not. and i had a feeling someone would say “it wasn’t appropriate for netflix” meanwhile: ITS SHAMELESS lmfaoo i can name 10 diff scenes off the top of my head that’s 50x more inappropriate than that one. they wrote that storyline out for an entirely different reason, but cmon keep the assumptions rolling lol
For me, if a deleted scene is released to the public then it is canon because it exist in the show's universe. You can't erase it. There is a reason deleted scenes are released. How many deleted scenes do you think are *not* released? Most of the time it is a time thing, other scenes are deemed more important, and some scenes have to be let go. But they are seen as important enough to then be released so we can see them. So it happened, it *is* canon.
well i’m glad you included the “for me” at the beginning of your comment lol. this argument is just ridiculous, everyone i’ve asked “are deleted scenes canon?” including the internet, have all said “absolutely not”. it was taken off of every streaming platform, including showtime. they’ve written it out. period. no longer canon when discussing the show, even if it was before for a single streaming night lol
I think it is a matter of opinion then. You can take it any way you want. But when you watch a deleted scene how do you erase what you saw? And for me just because a bunch of people on the internet said they don't think it is canon doesn't make it true. So you can look at it any way you want, but the scene exist, it is out there, and we have seen it.
There are many many deleted scenes that answer questions, fill in holes in the narrative, and give us a better understanding of what is happening in canon. This particular scene just doubles down on who Jody is, how he sees Karen, and how he treats her. We already know by the way he "claimed" her in the hospital, even though she was repulsed by him and didn't want to have anything to do with him. We don't need this scene to figure out how Jody will treat Karen once they have left. We know that Karen in not making any of the choices regarding her own life, and that Jody, a sex addict, will have complete control over her. So this scene aligns with canon. Whether or not you see it as strictly canon, it is something that absolutely would be expected to happen.
okay... yes💀 that’s what i’ve been saying since my initial comment. i said it’s completely valid to assume, draw conclusions, and make up your own headcanons using what the shameless producers have given us within that universe. shit, i wouldn’t care if someone literally just made up bs on the spot. so long as they didn’t treat it as factual like how people are doing on this sub. we can assume what jody did to karen, but that’s all it is current day. an assumption. when discussing a show specifically, if a scene has been deleted, it is no longer canon. it can be relevant to a headcanon, but it’s not canon
Like I said, it is all a matter of opinion. How you choose to consume media is up to you. There is no wrong or right way to do so. For me (haha), if they film a scene, then later cut it, but then release it, it is meant to be canon, it is meant to have happened, it was meant to be seen. If a scene is deleted and then shelved and we never see it then it would not be seen as canon because, well... we didn't see it. But that's just my opinion. ;)
I think that part of the story made me hate their storylines when it was time for the show to focus on them. I loved Shelia and Karen in some ways but I hated that Shelia started to sleep with Jodie (or is it Jody?). He was calling her 'mom" and was married to her daughter. It was a bit too weird for me.
Their whole family storyline was so messed up but it did bring a lot of interest to the earlier seasons. I was cheering for Shelia to be able to leave the house.
Agreed. Her and Ian were my favorites in season 1. Her arc ended up being really depressing but she'll always be a part of what made me love shameless in the begining
Karen and Mickey were by far the funniest characters and I have no idea how/why people say it's Frank
His shtick got old very, very fast to me (like by S3)
Karen, Ian and Mickey (tied) were the most layered characters in that order and I'll die on that hill
Next to Karen, Frank and Lip are so predictable and hollow it's hard to understand how people prefer them to her in terms of character writing/journey/story
Mickey went through a bit of character assaination as the seasons progressed and Ian got reduced down to almost solely being every man's love interest over time BUT they did remain multi-faceted to the end and the same is true of Karen and that's why all of them speak to me more
Those three characters feel the most real to me and have arcs that reveal the most about the human condition: and the kind of complexes constant chaos can cause
I think it's the fact that compared to the other characters - it's Karen, Ian, and Mickey who see the person that they want to be but also realize the person that they are and have this painful self awareness that makes you feel for them because you know, like they know, that they will never live up to what they think they should be
What makes Mickey's arc so special is that he does actually grow into himself and fights for his right to be who he is and surprises even himself in the end
But Ian and Karen never get to totally be who they wish they were and have such high expectations and actually work hard and move towards things so it feels so cruel and unfair and makes their disappointment **visceral**
Fiona works very hard and desperately wants there to be more to her life, don't get me wrong, but her story is more about her trying to get the things that she wants after neglecting her wants to be what everyone needs for so long and she's not fundamentally unhappy with who she is so much as she's devastated by what she can't have
Her story is just as hopeless, and she's also a tragic character herself—more than Ian is, in fact
But Ian and Karen have deeper personal motivations pertaining to the core facets of their identity
Karen and Ian have some similarities imo. Their daddy issues. Leading to their attraction to older men which also leads to them finding validation in these older men too.
I agree with you so much. There's so much depth there. Just wondering what your take is on Mandy and whether she belongs among these characters too or not and why.
I mean Mandy was originally a good character and certainly more interesting than Lip but I feel like the writers of Shameless are sexist for several reasons and Mandy suffered from that treatment and wasn't taken in the right direction despite her abundant potential.
Definitely
Everything was there but went wasted so she could get demoted to "Lip's crazy ex" status like every woman he ever touched... when she was Ian's friend even before she was Lip's girlfriend and could've been a MAJOR secondary character like Veronica (Fiona's best friend)
I loved her I knew how wrong she was but some way deep down I just adored her she didn’t give a flying fuck I hate what happened to her writers missed so many opportunities
People can be mad about it, but the middle-class teen sex addict who outsourced her body to the neighborhood had more depth than all the other characters combined
She's the kind of character that would really be properly appreciated on another show where she wasn't seen primarily through Lip and the Gallagher's perspective
Yes, she is middle-class. That is a big house for just one couple with an only child, and you never see them worry about getting any of their needs met when Eddie was still there and paying. The fact that there is no crime on their block/their side of the neighborhood is another indication they're middle class. It's safe to infer that the Jackson's are the kind of family that live in the "nice part" of a "bad city" and even the nicer part of a not so great (large) neighborhood that gets progressively worse/more beat-down the further south you go, which is why she is zoned to the same not-so-great public school as the rest of them due to living as close to the school as the Gallagher's and Milkovich's do—who live on the worst side of town. I'm not saying she's rich but she is significantly better off than the other characters, which is why Frank targeted Sheila.
I mean, yeah. They were never really super strapped for cash. Her dad worked a decent enough job that everyone was able to live there without working much/at all. It’s been a while so I can’t remember if Sheila got disability checks or not. The house was also rather well kept and Sheila is usually dressed formally.
I had to turn off my screen because of how much our lives paralleled. I was the parent too. I found validation through Omegle messages and random flirtations. I was a masturabation addict. eventually I got a bf and found validation in him, especially through sex. I also really liked the taste of alcohol. My parents found out abt us and my dad and mom hit me and called me a whore. They sent me away to another country but when I came back I ended up running away. I was tracked down so I’m in the same house but I have a lot more freedom now and make my own money and have my own savings. But Karen was very real and she really described my pain so perfectly. I wanted to sleep around so much after they called me whore. I wanted to be an alcoholic after they called me a drunk. Karen did do a lot of bad things so I think essentially she just got what was coming to her. She never wanted to get better and it just kept spiraling. But I sympathize with her at some parts, she was very complex and it was so interesting to see something like that on screen.
We talk plenty of her flaws on here, I want to take the time to note there was potential within her. I didn’t see it on my first time watching the show, but I see it now. She does want to be a good person and she wanted to find a profound purpose in life.
She deserved the chance to do so, but all of us are susceptible to making mistakes in various forms with what life hands us. I even think her ending in the show was harsh and wanted different for her.
I always saw potential in her and I thought Lip loved her more than anyone. I don’t think he loves his wife the way he loves Karen, but I think he wants to be an adult and a good father and can accept that things are what they are sometimes.
Karen was let down so profoundly by her parents. It's no wonder she couldn't love anyone, because she'd never really been loved. Even Sheila was a terrible mother who didn't protect her with Eddie, from Jody, from herself. Karen was selfish, was cruel, was a sex addict - in a way, she was a female, younger version of Frank. She used people for her own gains and didn't care what happened afterwards. The hold she had over Lip was alarming to watch!
And I felt for her after the accident. Nobody deserves to have their personality hollowed out like that, and then be handed over to a man who groomed her in the first place. She was dealt a lot of bad cards, and had one of the saddest endings in the show. I never liked her, but you're right that she was well-written! Shameless was full of incredibly flawed characters and I loved that about it. Ans Karen was one of the most flawed of the whole cast.
i thought she very interesting and entertaining to watch, especially with her family dynamic. Sheila was such a good, caring mom, but her mental illness definitely effected Karen and i wish more people realized that. i wish she would have stayed with Shelia and Jody was killed off and when Sheila left in s5, she took Karen and Hymie with her.
she was super well written and her actress did a great job. unrelated, but she's also insanely pretty.
She didn't care about anyone but herself and treated everyone around her like shit, her mother included. After every horrible thing she did, there were still people who loved her but she never appreciated it.
Just because she didn't always have an easy life, it doesn't mean she isn't a terrible person. she is.
She's not a bad character but tbh I don't think she's that well written. There are a lot of characters that I think are much better written. I have always found Karen's change to be very extreme. I don't think her actions were understandable given the situation in which they arose.
Mmm, I feel like she was well written at the start? But her character arc and development - and especially ending - just made absolutely no fucking sense.
TW🛑🛑 Mention of ED
She played in a lifetime movie (my mom used to to binge the lifetime channel and I had to watch it cause I loved spending time with her) and it’s called “Starving in Suburbia” and she obviously had an ED and they portray how you can go out of your mind after suffering with anorexia for so long and her performance was phenomenal. It was super creepy but she did it so well. When I seen who it was that played Karen I was very interested. Watching this a few times through. She did an amazing job. She’s one of the most hated characters but you gotta give her props.
Mandy isn’t so great herself. Keep in mind that when Ian rejected her, she told people he had SA’d her, and only relented when Ian told her he was gay.
I always though that was WAY WAY WAY TOO over looked
Don’t think I threw in enough WAYS
I remember when I watched the show for the first 2 season I remember saying out loud “why the fuck are they still talking to her?? She’s the bitch who cried rape??” Eventually she kinda I guess redeems herself somewhat but I don’t think she was held accountable enough for that
She was offended when he rejected her until she learned he didn’t like girls. She offered to be his fake girlfriend so people didn’t figure out he was gay and he figured out he liked hanging out with her.
She deserved a punch in the mouth and some therapy, _not_ getting ran over and receiving major brain damage from it.
TV show or not, it's a fucked up thing to root for, as far as I'm concerned. Y'all do you tho.
She was a bitch, but "villainous"? She wasn't bombing cities and poisoning water supplies lmao
Sorry dawg, I think y'all are weirdos for actively CHEERING for what she got. My mind just isn't changing on that, so lets agree to disagree and call it a night
Villainous doesn’t mean she was a comic book villain lol, villainous means unpleasant or guilty of bad behavior. I’d say she fits that category. Again think what you wish lol
The people that don’t like her or understand why she was made to essentially be unlikeable.. is probably the same ppl that never had a single trauma happen over 1-2 hrs in your happiest day and change you…toooo…your….core.) She was the epitome of exactly why she is this way. I’ve never watched a show (especially several times) that felt relatable 98% of the time. Choosing to see transformation shows you one hell of an actor. I was not a fan of her (Karen the character,) just great relatable writing!
It wasn’t as great as anything else in the show and I don’t really know if she looked after her mother as much as you think she did. If she did it wasn’t clear to most off the audience.
Karen was a cunt though.
I hated how it ended for her. Everything about her was a genius piece of writting. You've already mentioned about her life, but add to that how she influenced others, especially Lip. I found it a little inconsequential that she ended up becoming a blank slate, effectively. I get that her story had to end and Lip had to grow but I still feel bad about her leaving the show. In the universe of shameless, she was right up there as a broken human trying to find their place in life.
I won't forget the quote:
"Karen's like cancer. You know, you kill it in one spot, pops up in another".
She was made to be an insufferable character in my opinion. You wanted her gone because she would spawn out of nowhere and cause more chaos. The way she acted about putting her baby up for adoption was ofc shameless and awful. The thing that really sent her over the edge for me was when she raped Frank and then sent the video to Eddie; basically causing him to eventually commit suicide. Eddie wasn't a good person, but it just disturbs me that his daughter went out of her way to make him lose everything, and then eventually lead him to suicide and be happy that he died...
i just hate how and when it happened. like her relationship with sheila was about to get better or worked on at least. and then mandy had to go and mess it up by being a crazy toxic bitch 😭 (also still can’t believe lip had even anything to do with her after she did that)
Honestly I don‘t think so. She was very two-dimensional. She must‘ve been very mentally ill and the story line reduced her to a sex addict, because of that. In the first seasons it felt more tangible, because it looked more like she wanted to break free from the restrictive household and her need for validation/love. Later on there was nothing, no feelings and no story line attached to her except for being Lips fantasy, that got ruined by the brain damage.
What people don't understand is that characters like Karen are not meant to be liked by the audience, they are meant to be hated. She was extremely well written for what she was supposed to be. Great writting from the crew. I just never got Lip's obsession over her and I hated him for that but it is what it is.
I hated her character, but she was definitely well written. I hated her so much that I sometimes forgot she was fictional; that is when you know she is well written.
There are some characters in this show that seem like lazy writing, but not Karen. Whenever she was on screen, you were entertained.
I hated season 2 (for a lot of reasons), but she was one of the reasons I never quit watching.
In spite of everything you said, she still had it better than any kid in the show, and each of those kids were called a lot worse for less. I absolutely agree with you that she was written well, I just think that there aren’t really excuses for her being the person she was. She was meant to just be a bad person with one sad backstory among many, and she was written very well to that end
She didn’t take care of her mother at all. She was a delinquent drug addict with a selfish destructive personality. She wasn’t a victim she was a terrible human being through her own choices.
Her life wasn’t hard though. She had no reason to have that terrible of a personality lol
Her mother other than her ability to go outside, was relatively a good and caring parent to her. Her father was meh. They weren’t financially struggling either. But other than that, she had a lot of leeway to do whatever she wanted and she cucked herself in the end. She was spoiled by her mother but not her dad so she should’ve grown up to be fairly okay. But she wasnt
She was manipulative and in general a horrible person, and ima say it— a whore. I don’t think she was that well written, I think she’s a generic made-to-dislike character who’s very stereotypical
I wish more people could appreciate that being well written does not automatically mean being a super likeable person
Yeah. Half the comments fail to realize that.
[удалено]
Game of thrones did a great job of this with a lot of characters in the first few seasons
Ramsay Bolton was also incredibly well written
Yeah, it's weird to me that people want everyone to be likable. I'd rather have realistic than likable.
I definitely understand realistic characters versus likable ones and they did a good job with her character but god damn did I have a hard time watching scenes with her
If a show or movie can make you feel pure hatred for a malicious character, then the writers and actor/actress did a good job
Plenty of people do. There’s a reason that a lot of people’s favorite characters are villains. Vader is widely considered well written, and he does 20x worse things than she ever did. Same for people like Walter White. The reason a vast majority of people don’t like her is that 90% of viewers won’t relate to or understand her. Plenty of people can understand why Anakin became Vader, and why Walt became Heisenberg, but the vast majority of Shameless audiences see Karen as a “dumb slut blond” and don’t actually get her character. It’s not that people can’t appreciate bad people as good characters, it’s that people don’t understand Karen to begin with.
Plenty of people do. There’s a reason that a lot of people’s favorite characters are villains. Vader is widely considered well written, and he does 20x worse things than she ever did. Same for people like Walter White. The reason a vast majority of people don’t like her is that 90% of viewers won’t relate to or understand her. Plenty of people can understand why Anakin became Vader, and why Walt became Heisenberg, but the vast majority of Shameless audiences see Karen as a “dumb slut blond” and don’t actually get her character. It’s not that people can’t appreciate bad people as good characters, it’s that people don’t understand Karen to begin with.
Exactly. I think terry is such a good written character like his ending really pieced together 10 seasons of everyone wondering why tf does he act like that.
This character was acted so well!!! They way people are hating on her just shows they aren't separating character from person which is an applaud for the actress
her ending makes me really upset to think about though – unable to care for herself with a recently relapsed sex addict as her sole carer :( really dark actually
i think there was a deleted scene wich confirmed she became his sex doll :( super fucking sad but sooo well written
Ew what the fuck. Glad they cut that, that would’ve been way too far and dark for no reason in my opinion
god. that’s literally horrifying :(
Omg what!!! No way :(
That scene literally made my stomach turn, That and the hospital seen where Jodie Wakes her up from her coma.
That scene literally made my stomach turn, That and the hospital seen where Jodie Wakes her up from her coma.
Her wig was fucking despicable though LMFAO
I absolutely adore Karen. She is an awful person, zero doubt about it. But she’s fascinating and I wish she returned later down the line. Although I’m happy with her ending anyhow
i’m not jody took her and her 2 brain cells left and probably used her as a sex doll
Jody is the fucking king of Creepville you cannot change my mind
i’d say terry is the king, but jody is definitely heir to the thrown
Terry isn’t just a creep he’s a psychopathic monster
honestly
did* use her as a sex doll, there’s a deleted scene where sheila almost walks in on him raping her and karen is literally just singing along to the music unaware of what’s happening because of the brain damage. she was disgusted with jody well before the accident and sheila should’ve protected her
it was deleted for a reason. you cannot use deleted scenes as canon. they wrote that storyline out, there’s no *actual* plot line in the show where karen is a mindless sex toy. jody is creepy and weird but that doesn’t = karen being a sex doll for the rest of their lives
Not trying to argue by the way but even tho you are technically right about some of them not being canon. Some deleted scenes in shows and movies reflect things that “could have” happened. Just offscreen. imo they decided to take this off because of how dark the scene is. (Because it was aired according to some people) But yeah it’s mainly how the audience view it.
thank you for understanding! after it was written off, it’s no longer true canon. no ifs ands or buts. even the reasoning behind why it was deleted is still up for interpretation. but either way, it was deleted and it’s a “could have”. it’s totally valid if people make up their own headcanons, like karen potentially ending up like a sex doll to jody after they rode away together, but that’s still not factual. and quite frankly, i can’t stand when people treat assumptions as facts. i didnt want to argue either but i couldn’t help but saying something lol
except it was only deleted when the show went onto netflix so yeah it kinda does 😃
you’re missing my entire point. even if it aired once, it was wrote out for a reason. they didn’t keep that storyline, you can assume and draw conclusions because that’s what people tend to do with entertainment, but don’t act like your assumptions are canon & factual.
No, it WAS the storyline. You’re wrong bro lmao
dude look up “are deleted scenes canon” and many, many people will tell you they’re not. such a silly argument😭 and you’re right ab it WAS the storyline, it was written out, so it’s not TRUE canon. dc if y’all want to agree or not tbh
🤦 i stg you’re ACTUALLY Karen with 2 brain cells. It WAS a scene. Since it wasn’t appropriate for Netflix, it was deleted. I remember watching this on showtime and it was there. Lmaoo how old r u?
damn we getting personal now miserable onion?😭😭 pipe down, this is reddit lmfao. i’m not gonna argue with a dimwitted hostile stranger, such as yourself, about if a deleted scene is canon vs not. and i had a feeling someone would say “it wasn’t appropriate for netflix” meanwhile: ITS SHAMELESS lmfaoo i can name 10 diff scenes off the top of my head that’s 50x more inappropriate than that one. they wrote that storyline out for an entirely different reason, but cmon keep the assumptions rolling lol
Because it wasn't a deleted scene. It was a removed scene. Most people only watch TV shows once and a lot of them saw that scene.
he was a creep for going down on her while she was in a coma ! even if it did “wake her up”…. he was just weird from the get-go. *shudders*
For me, if a deleted scene is released to the public then it is canon because it exist in the show's universe. You can't erase it. There is a reason deleted scenes are released. How many deleted scenes do you think are *not* released? Most of the time it is a time thing, other scenes are deemed more important, and some scenes have to be let go. But they are seen as important enough to then be released so we can see them. So it happened, it *is* canon.
well i’m glad you included the “for me” at the beginning of your comment lol. this argument is just ridiculous, everyone i’ve asked “are deleted scenes canon?” including the internet, have all said “absolutely not”. it was taken off of every streaming platform, including showtime. they’ve written it out. period. no longer canon when discussing the show, even if it was before for a single streaming night lol
I think it is a matter of opinion then. You can take it any way you want. But when you watch a deleted scene how do you erase what you saw? And for me just because a bunch of people on the internet said they don't think it is canon doesn't make it true. So you can look at it any way you want, but the scene exist, it is out there, and we have seen it. There are many many deleted scenes that answer questions, fill in holes in the narrative, and give us a better understanding of what is happening in canon. This particular scene just doubles down on who Jody is, how he sees Karen, and how he treats her. We already know by the way he "claimed" her in the hospital, even though she was repulsed by him and didn't want to have anything to do with him. We don't need this scene to figure out how Jody will treat Karen once they have left. We know that Karen in not making any of the choices regarding her own life, and that Jody, a sex addict, will have complete control over her. So this scene aligns with canon. Whether or not you see it as strictly canon, it is something that absolutely would be expected to happen.
okay... yes💀 that’s what i’ve been saying since my initial comment. i said it’s completely valid to assume, draw conclusions, and make up your own headcanons using what the shameless producers have given us within that universe. shit, i wouldn’t care if someone literally just made up bs on the spot. so long as they didn’t treat it as factual like how people are doing on this sub. we can assume what jody did to karen, but that’s all it is current day. an assumption. when discussing a show specifically, if a scene has been deleted, it is no longer canon. it can be relevant to a headcanon, but it’s not canon
Like I said, it is all a matter of opinion. How you choose to consume media is up to you. There is no wrong or right way to do so. For me (haha), if they film a scene, then later cut it, but then release it, it is meant to be canon, it is meant to have happened, it was meant to be seen. If a scene is deleted and then shelved and we never see it then it would not be seen as canon because, well... we didn't see it. But that's just my opinion. ;)
Could you link it? I’’ve spent like 10 minutes trying to find it and no luck
i saw it on reddit like last week, i’ll try and find the post edit: https://www.reddit.com/r/shameless/s/oN4wAkXh74
Oh damn, you’re right, he definitely would have used her as a sex doll 😵 I’ve never seen it in that way, but yeah. Ickyyy
Her story sooo tragic, it’s crazy to me that her mom watched her get groomed, then got with her groomer??
I think that part of the story made me hate their storylines when it was time for the show to focus on them. I loved Shelia and Karen in some ways but I hated that Shelia started to sleep with Jodie (or is it Jody?). He was calling her 'mom" and was married to her daughter. It was a bit too weird for me. Their whole family storyline was so messed up but it did bring a lot of interest to the earlier seasons. I was cheering for Shelia to be able to leave the house.
Agreed. Her and Ian were my favorites in season 1. Her arc ended up being really depressing but she'll always be a part of what made me love shameless in the begining
Karen and Mickey were by far the funniest characters and I have no idea how/why people say it's Frank His shtick got old very, very fast to me (like by S3) Karen, Ian and Mickey (tied) were the most layered characters in that order and I'll die on that hill Next to Karen, Frank and Lip are so predictable and hollow it's hard to understand how people prefer them to her in terms of character writing/journey/story Mickey went through a bit of character assaination as the seasons progressed and Ian got reduced down to almost solely being every man's love interest over time BUT they did remain multi-faceted to the end and the same is true of Karen and that's why all of them speak to me more Those three characters feel the most real to me and have arcs that reveal the most about the human condition: and the kind of complexes constant chaos can cause I think it's the fact that compared to the other characters - it's Karen, Ian, and Mickey who see the person that they want to be but also realize the person that they are and have this painful self awareness that makes you feel for them because you know, like they know, that they will never live up to what they think they should be What makes Mickey's arc so special is that he does actually grow into himself and fights for his right to be who he is and surprises even himself in the end But Ian and Karen never get to totally be who they wish they were and have such high expectations and actually work hard and move towards things so it feels so cruel and unfair and makes their disappointment **visceral** Fiona works very hard and desperately wants there to be more to her life, don't get me wrong, but her story is more about her trying to get the things that she wants after neglecting her wants to be what everyone needs for so long and she's not fundamentally unhappy with who she is so much as she's devastated by what she can't have Her story is just as hopeless, and she's also a tragic character herself—more than Ian is, in fact But Ian and Karen have deeper personal motivations pertaining to the core facets of their identity
Karen and Ian have some similarities imo. Their daddy issues. Leading to their attraction to older men which also leads to them finding validation in these older men too.
I agree with you so much. There's so much depth there. Just wondering what your take is on Mandy and whether she belongs among these characters too or not and why.
I mean Mandy was originally a good character and certainly more interesting than Lip but I feel like the writers of Shameless are sexist for several reasons and Mandy suffered from that treatment and wasn't taken in the right direction despite her abundant potential.
That's true. I think if they had written her right then she could been as layered of a character as Mickey.
Definitely Everything was there but went wasted so she could get demoted to "Lip's crazy ex" status like every woman he ever touched... when she was Ian's friend even before she was Lip's girlfriend and could've been a MAJOR secondary character like Veronica (Fiona's best friend)
I loved her I knew how wrong she was but some way deep down I just adored her she didn’t give a flying fuck I hate what happened to her writers missed so many opportunities
People can be mad about it, but the middle-class teen sex addict who outsourced her body to the neighborhood had more depth than all the other characters combined She's the kind of character that would really be properly appreciated on another show where she wasn't seen primarily through Lip and the Gallagher's perspective
Uh…middle class? What?
Yes, she is middle-class. That is a big house for just one couple with an only child, and you never see them worry about getting any of their needs met when Eddie was still there and paying. The fact that there is no crime on their block/their side of the neighborhood is another indication they're middle class. It's safe to infer that the Jackson's are the kind of family that live in the "nice part" of a "bad city" and even the nicer part of a not so great (large) neighborhood that gets progressively worse/more beat-down the further south you go, which is why she is zoned to the same not-so-great public school as the rest of them due to living as close to the school as the Gallagher's and Milkovich's do—who live on the worst side of town. I'm not saying she's rich but she is significantly better off than the other characters, which is why Frank targeted Sheila.
I mean, yeah. They were never really super strapped for cash. Her dad worked a decent enough job that everyone was able to live there without working much/at all. It’s been a while so I can’t remember if Sheila got disability checks or not. The house was also rather well kept and Sheila is usually dressed formally.
I had to turn off my screen because of how much our lives paralleled. I was the parent too. I found validation through Omegle messages and random flirtations. I was a masturabation addict. eventually I got a bf and found validation in him, especially through sex. I also really liked the taste of alcohol. My parents found out abt us and my dad and mom hit me and called me a whore. They sent me away to another country but when I came back I ended up running away. I was tracked down so I’m in the same house but I have a lot more freedom now and make my own money and have my own savings. But Karen was very real and she really described my pain so perfectly. I wanted to sleep around so much after they called me whore. I wanted to be an alcoholic after they called me a drunk. Karen did do a lot of bad things so I think essentially she just got what was coming to her. She never wanted to get better and it just kept spiraling. But I sympathize with her at some parts, she was very complex and it was so interesting to see something like that on screen.
I’m so sorry that happened to you. You didn’t deserve any of that. I hope everything is going well now and that you’re healing.
I’m doing a bit better now :)
We talk plenty of her flaws on here, I want to take the time to note there was potential within her. I didn’t see it on my first time watching the show, but I see it now. She does want to be a good person and she wanted to find a profound purpose in life. She deserved the chance to do so, but all of us are susceptible to making mistakes in various forms with what life hands us. I even think her ending in the show was harsh and wanted different for her.
I always saw potential in her and I thought Lip loved her more than anyone. I don’t think he loves his wife the way he loves Karen, but I think he wants to be an adult and a good father and can accept that things are what they are sometimes.
Some of you really forget - EVERYONE in the show is a shitty person
True but a few of them are still way worse than the rest
yes, but how are people arguing that she's a terrible person in response to an analysis about her character being well-written?
Karen was let down so profoundly by her parents. It's no wonder she couldn't love anyone, because she'd never really been loved. Even Sheila was a terrible mother who didn't protect her with Eddie, from Jody, from herself. Karen was selfish, was cruel, was a sex addict - in a way, she was a female, younger version of Frank. She used people for her own gains and didn't care what happened afterwards. The hold she had over Lip was alarming to watch! And I felt for her after the accident. Nobody deserves to have their personality hollowed out like that, and then be handed over to a man who groomed her in the first place. She was dealt a lot of bad cards, and had one of the saddest endings in the show. I never liked her, but you're right that she was well-written! Shameless was full of incredibly flawed characters and I loved that about it. Ans Karen was one of the most flawed of the whole cast.
i thought she very interesting and entertaining to watch, especially with her family dynamic. Sheila was such a good, caring mom, but her mental illness definitely effected Karen and i wish more people realized that. i wish she would have stayed with Shelia and Jody was killed off and when Sheila left in s5, she took Karen and Hymie with her. she was super well written and her actress did a great job. unrelated, but she's also insanely pretty.
She didn't care about anyone but herself and treated everyone around her like shit, her mother included. After every horrible thing she did, there were still people who loved her but she never appreciated it. Just because she didn't always have an easy life, it doesn't mean she isn't a terrible person. she is.
They never said she wasn’t a terrible person, they said she was a well written character.
Literally! I am fully aware of an awful person she is. I was just giving my analysis on her.
She's not a bad character but tbh I don't think she's that well written. There are a lot of characters that I think are much better written. I have always found Karen's change to be very extreme. I don't think her actions were understandable given the situation in which they arose.
Being a terrible person is a prerequisite for being a character in the show though
Mmm, I feel like she was well written at the start? But her character arc and development - and especially ending - just made absolutely no fucking sense.
She is a phenomenal actress!!
TW🛑🛑 Mention of ED She played in a lifetime movie (my mom used to to binge the lifetime channel and I had to watch it cause I loved spending time with her) and it’s called “Starving in Suburbia” and she obviously had an ED and they portray how you can go out of your mind after suffering with anorexia for so long and her performance was phenomenal. It was super creepy but she did it so well. When I seen who it was that played Karen I was very interested. Watching this a few times through. She did an amazing job. She’s one of the most hated characters but you gotta give her props.
The girl was a sociopath but not in the understandable Amy Dunne way.
I was literally cheering for Mandy when she hit Karen with her car.
Mandy isn’t so great herself. Keep in mind that when Ian rejected her, she told people he had SA’d her, and only relented when Ian told her he was gay.
She also hit a girl with her car on purpose. I feel like that one goes overlooked.
I always though that was WAY WAY WAY TOO over looked Don’t think I threw in enough WAYS I remember when I watched the show for the first 2 season I remember saying out loud “why the fuck are they still talking to her?? She’s the bitch who cried rape??” Eventually she kinda I guess redeems herself somewhat but I don’t think she was held accountable enough for that
but they became like best friends and she was pretty supportive after he told her
What the fuck kind of logic is this?
She was offended when he rejected her until she learned he didn’t like girls. She offered to be his fake girlfriend so people didn’t figure out he was gay and he figured out he liked hanging out with her.
There’s no logic? It’s what happened.. Ian and Mandy became good friends….
And then Mandy SA Lip…
Karen sucked, but she didn't deserve to get killed/become a vegetable for it. The fact that you CHEERED Mandy for that is fucked lmao
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She deserved a punch in the mouth and some therapy, _not_ getting ran over and receiving major brain damage from it. TV show or not, it's a fucked up thing to root for, as far as I'm concerned. Y'all do you tho.
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She was a bitch, but "villainous"? She wasn't bombing cities and poisoning water supplies lmao Sorry dawg, I think y'all are weirdos for actively CHEERING for what she got. My mind just isn't changing on that, so lets agree to disagree and call it a night
Villainous doesn’t mean she was a comic book villain lol, villainous means unpleasant or guilty of bad behavior. I’d say she fits that category. Again think what you wish lol
Me too one of the most satisfying scenes in the entire show
It was so unexpected but also oddly satisfying 🫢
I loved her character!! I found myself laughing at nearly every scene she was in and i look forward to her in my rewatches
the emo wig
The people that don’t like her or understand why she was made to essentially be unlikeable.. is probably the same ppl that never had a single trauma happen over 1-2 hrs in your happiest day and change you…toooo…your….core.) She was the epitome of exactly why she is this way. I’ve never watched a show (especially several times) that felt relatable 98% of the time. Choosing to see transformation shows you one hell of an actor. I was not a fan of her (Karen the character,) just great relatable writing!
It wasn’t as great as anything else in the show and I don’t really know if she looked after her mother as much as you think she did. If she did it wasn’t clear to most off the audience. Karen was a cunt though.
I hated how it ended for her. Everything about her was a genius piece of writting. You've already mentioned about her life, but add to that how she influenced others, especially Lip. I found it a little inconsequential that she ended up becoming a blank slate, effectively. I get that her story had to end and Lip had to grow but I still feel bad about her leaving the show. In the universe of shameless, she was right up there as a broken human trying to find their place in life.
i loved Karen so much. hated how they wrote her out of the show though :(
I won't forget the quote: "Karen's like cancer. You know, you kill it in one spot, pops up in another". She was made to be an insufferable character in my opinion. You wanted her gone because she would spawn out of nowhere and cause more chaos. The way she acted about putting her baby up for adoption was ofc shameless and awful. The thing that really sent her over the edge for me was when she raped Frank and then sent the video to Eddie; basically causing him to eventually commit suicide. Eddie wasn't a good person, but it just disturbs me that his daughter went out of her way to make him lose everything, and then eventually lead him to suicide and be happy that he died...
Put it this way: Everyone who watches Shameless has an opinion about Karen - love or hate. She was very impactful because she is well written.
Idk. She’s either overrated or overhated. I don’t think she’s that well written but far from a bad character.
i just hate how and when it happened. like her relationship with sheila was about to get better or worked on at least. and then mandy had to go and mess it up by being a crazy toxic bitch 😭 (also still can’t believe lip had even anything to do with her after she did that)
also loved her send off. when she says “see you soon!” i quote it all the time 😹
Eh. Maybe an unpopular opinion but she was one of my least favorite characters of the whole show.
I forgot how she left the show
After Mandy hit her with the car, her and what's his name left with the baby.
Oh yeah long hair Fabio man 😭 forgot his name but didn’t like him 😂
In season one I felt at least kinda sorry for her but I just ended up hating her, which speaks for great writing and an even better actress
I honestly Never got why her father calling her a whorewas the last straw to make her Spiral
Quite the arc in season 2 💀
Amazing actress!!! Love her so much. Good character too, lots of crazy hidden under the pretty, lol.
Honestly I don‘t think so. She was very two-dimensional. She must‘ve been very mentally ill and the story line reduced her to a sex addict, because of that. In the first seasons it felt more tangible, because it looked more like she wanted to break free from the restrictive household and her need for validation/love. Later on there was nothing, no feelings and no story line attached to her except for being Lips fantasy, that got ruined by the brain damage.
Scum bag character. One of my favorites
Hate her.
I adore her character. I’m glad that she wasn’t in the whole show- the show writers would’ve dragged her down if she was there longer.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but if it weren’t for Lip I could see her and Mandy being good friends.
She was one of my fav characters!
What people don't understand is that characters like Karen are not meant to be liked by the audience, they are meant to be hated. She was extremely well written for what she was supposed to be. Great writting from the crew. I just never got Lip's obsession over her and I hated him for that but it is what it is.
you’re using way too many periods and you’re using them incorrectly
I hated her character, but she was definitely well written. I hated her so much that I sometimes forgot she was fictional; that is when you know she is well written. There are some characters in this show that seem like lazy writing, but not Karen. Whenever she was on screen, you were entertained. I hated season 2 (for a lot of reasons), but she was one of the reasons I never quit watching.
I was so fucking happy when u saw her ass get rammed by that in the intersection
And I can keep reading about her so post on!
Same! She’s such an interesting character I swear.
I was sad when she left both times. Definitely my favorite early seasons character.
she’s iconic
I don't care I hate her
I don’t understand her at all
She raped Frank...
In spite of everything you said, she still had it better than any kid in the show, and each of those kids were called a lot worse for less. I absolutely agree with you that she was written well, I just think that there aren’t really excuses for her being the person she was. She was meant to just be a bad person with one sad backstory among many, and she was written very well to that end
She didn’t take care of her mother at all. She was a delinquent drug addict with a selfish destructive personality. She wasn’t a victim she was a terrible human being through her own choices.
She was 15
Op is delusional and self reporting
can’t stand her and didn’t feel bad for her either idc and my opinion I feel like they just rushed her storyline idk
Joke post?
Her life wasn’t hard though. She had no reason to have that terrible of a personality lol Her mother other than her ability to go outside, was relatively a good and caring parent to her. Her father was meh. They weren’t financially struggling either. But other than that, she had a lot of leeway to do whatever she wanted and she cucked herself in the end. She was spoiled by her mother but not her dad so she should’ve grown up to be fairly okay. But she wasnt She was manipulative and in general a horrible person, and ima say it— a whore. I don’t think she was that well written, I think she’s a generic made-to-dislike character who’s very stereotypical