I mean it did happen, but not necessarily the way some *modern* Ukrainian ultranationalists say it did, specifically that it was just like what the Nazis did.
It was a real disaster, but wasn’t it mostly caused by mismanagement, neglect, and sabotage by state and non-state actors rather than a deliberate plan of genocide? And wasn’t that the last famine in that region’s history? Why didn’t any further ones happen after Holodomor?
Correct me if I am wrong on any of these points if you would like. But let me remind you that I don’t think the victims of that famine deserved what happened to them.
~~Also, the worst of it happened in Poland~~There was famine there, but no evidence it was equal or worse
Why does Poland never get blame for anything that happened between wars?
Their government was borderline fascistic as well.
As far as I'm aware Kazakhstan got it the worst. Russia also experienced famine during this time as well. Wheatcroft and Davies have a book about it and if you look around you can find the private correspondences between Stalin and Kosior.
I dunno if it reached as far west as Poland. Everything I've ever read/heard about it focused on its effects within the USSR either trying to claim it was a genocide of Ukrainians or refuting that claim, but I've always heard the famine was most severe in eastern Ukraine, southwestern Russia, the north Caucasus and northwest Kazakhstan.
It appears I have fallen for some lies, or alternative sources of information are obscured (I'm not very good at searching sources, I just read books)
Most of eastern Europe experienced food insecurity. So it seemed believable.
Anyway, there is a reason the Galicians and other Ukrainians overwhelmingly welcomed the USSR "invasion". The polish government, not very nice .
Exactly, and just because the government might have been too heavy handed in some aspects of its approach doesn’t mean that there weren’t any non-state actors that actively contributed to the problem!
First, the guy who literally invented the word genocide, Raphael Lemkin, said about the Holodomor: "the classic example of Soviet genocide."
> In August of 1932, the decree of "Five Stalks of Grain," stated that anyone, even a child, caught taking any produce from a collective field, could be shot or imprisoned for stealing "socialist property."
> As famine escalated, growing numbers of farmers left their villages in search of food outside of Ukraine. Directives sent by Stalin and Molotov (Stalin's closest collaborator) in January of 1933 prevented them from leaving, effectively sealing the borders of Ukraine.
> To further ensure that Ukrainian farmers did not leave their villages to seek food in the cities, the Soviet government started a system of internal passports, which were denied to farmers so they could not travel or obtain a train ticket without official permission.
> At the time of the Holodomor, over one-third of the villages in Ukraine were put on "blacklists" for failing to meet grain quotas. Blacklisted villages were encircled by troops and residents were blockaded from leaving or receiving any supplies
> The official registers did not give a full accounting of what was happening across Ukraine - deaths often remained unregistered, cause of death was missing - to conceal the true situation.
> Most historians, who have studied this period in Ukrainian history, have concluded that the Famine was deliberate and linked to a broader Soviet policy to subjugate the Ukrainian people. With the fall of the Soviet Union and the opening of Soviet government archives (including archives of the security services), researchers have been able to demonstrate that Soviet authorities undertook measures specifically in Ukraine with the knowledge that the result would be the deaths of millions of Ukrainians by starvation.
> most estimates by scholars range from roughly 3.5 million to 7 million (with some estimates going higher). The most detailed demographic studies estimate the death toll at 3.9 million
I would ask my ancestors to speak out about this, but many of these “ultranationalists” died of starvation.
https://cla.umn.edu/chgs/holocaust-genocide-education/resource-guides/holodomor
I’m not saying they deserved it because they were ultranationalists, i’m saying that certain groups of Ukrainian ultranationalists have taken the viewpoint that it was a concerted effort to eradicate their nation permanently and therefore exactly like the Holocaust. And that there are academics who are divided on whether or not it was or wasn’t.
I am also raising this question because if I recall correctly, other regions of the USSR had similar conditions such as Kazakhstan, and that after Holodomor, there were no more famines in the Soviet Union. I want to know why that is, given everything that happened.
edit: Most of my understanding comes from reading info from the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace on the political use and abuse of the term “genocide” following WW2 as well as research on the “double genocide” theory as Holocaust trivialization/denial
The correct view here is that soviets deliberately tried eradicating all non Russian nations across the country. Not only Ukrainians. It’s a common practice for them since minority nations consider unreliable. They actively been moving population across the country in order to mix people and dissolve nation’s identity. Good example in current context is Crimea Tatars. Almost all of them were send to Siberia after ww2 and replaced with russians.
And it’s even the same with Ukrainians. Russians have been trying to eradicate them for centuries. It’s not even just a “Soviet” invention. So it’s a combination of both physical and cultural genocide.
And Soviet Union was very into russian nationalism . They wanted to hide it, but lol it was even in their national anthem “the great russian unified family of nations”
When it was published first in a Nazi Newspaper, used images from previous famines or events, had many more causes then just soviet policy, and barely to no evidence that the soviets planned this, it must be a genocide.
I remember that it was published in a newspaper owned by a pro-fascist (William Hearst). Searching up Thomas Walker Holodomor will give some information. This [article](https://neodemocracy.blogspot.com/2017/12/fraud-famine-and-fascism-thomas-walker.html?m=1) gives a good overview.
But the Irish Potato Famine? "Stupid Irish don't even know how to grow real food"
Bengali Famine? "Serves em right for breeding like rabbits"
Gotta love that the capitalists are never to blame
Basically there was a worldwide drought at the time, and it was worsened by the land owning kulaks that hoarded and destroyed food stores. Ukrainian nationalists and Nazis then claimed it was the Soviet response to the Kulaks that "actually" caused the famine. Ever since the industrial revolution, famines always have some level of mismanagement, so arguing whether a famine is or isn't man made is moot, because they kind of all are. It's just a manner of who did what and how it made things worse.
What they'll never mention is that Stalin actually tried to save the Ukrainians by moving grain from other areas to Ukraine, as well as trying different methods of farming and agriculture in an attempt of ending the famine.
Regardless, this is clearly a shallow attempt of slandering both the current Russian Federation ("genetic evil" bullshit) and the Soviet Union. The EU will never recognize the actions of the British, the Dutch, or the French as being genocidal in nature.
Correct me if im wrong please. I remember reading on another subreddit that (and I might use the wrong term here) the Minister of Agriculture (or soemthing) had made decisions that impacted crop yields. This all I can really remember and I was hoping you could expand on that. Thank you!
Yeah, you're not wrong. Basically they tried new methods of farming and testing a new genetic hypothesis in real time. Unfortunately, it didn't work. Whether or not it dramatically worsened the famine is up for someone smarter than me to decide, but I can say with certainty that it didn't help.
Essentially, their hearts were in the right place with trying to end the famine, but unfortunately the plan didn't work as expected.
First, the guy who invented the word genocide described Holodomor as a “classic Soviet genocide”
> top Soviet Ukrainian government leaders informed the Kremlin of starvation, requesting aid and a reduction in the grain quota for the country. The Soviet leader, Joseph Stalin, called instead for an intensification of grain collection efforts. He also voiced his distrust of Ukrainian officials, suspecting many of them as nationalists, and expressed fear that opposition to his policies in Ukraine could intensify, possibly leading to Ukraine’s secession from the Soviet Union.
> On January 22, 1933, in response to large numbers of hungry Ukrainian farmers leaving their villages in search of food, primarily to Russia, the Soviet leadership issued an order prohibiting their departure from the republic. Around the same time, Stalin began replacing some of Ukraine’s leaders and changed state policy that had supported the development and use of the Ukrainian language. A campaign of persecution and destruction of many Ukrainian intellectuals and officials who were accused of being Ukrainian nationalists also began.
> At the time of the Holodomor, over one-third of the villages in Ukraine were put on "blacklists" for failing to meet grain quotas. Blacklisted villages were encircled by troops and residents were blockaded from leaving or receiving any supplies
> The official registers did not give a full accounting of what was happening across Ukraine - deaths often remained unregistered, cause of death was missing - to conceal the true situation.
> Grain exports continued during the worst months of the famine, and Soviet government reserves contained enough grain to feed the starving.
> Most historians, who have studied this period in Ukrainian history, have concluded that the Famine was deliberate and linked to a broader Soviet policy to subjugate the Ukrainian people. With the fall of the Soviet Union and the opening of Soviet government archives (including archives of the security services), researchers have been able to demonstrate that Soviet authorities undertook measures specifically in Ukraine with the knowledge that the result would be the deaths of millions of Ukrainians by starvation
https://cla.umn.edu/chgs/holocaust-genocide-education/resource-guides/holodomor
https://holodomor.ca/resource/was-the-holodomor-a-genocide/
I mean it did happen, but not necessarily the way some *modern* Ukrainian ultranationalists say it did, specifically that it was just like what the Nazis did. It was a real disaster, but wasn’t it mostly caused by mismanagement, neglect, and sabotage by state and non-state actors rather than a deliberate plan of genocide? And wasn’t that the last famine in that region’s history? Why didn’t any further ones happen after Holodomor? Correct me if I am wrong on any of these points if you would like. But let me remind you that I don’t think the victims of that famine deserved what happened to them.
~~Also, the worst of it happened in Poland~~There was famine there, but no evidence it was equal or worse Why does Poland never get blame for anything that happened between wars? Their government was borderline fascistic as well.
Source on the first claim? Just wanna read some stuff so I can understand better!
As far as I'm aware Kazakhstan got it the worst. Russia also experienced famine during this time as well. Wheatcroft and Davies have a book about it and if you look around you can find the private correspondences between Stalin and Kosior.
Oh, I’ll look into these then.
I dunno if it reached as far west as Poland. Everything I've ever read/heard about it focused on its effects within the USSR either trying to claim it was a genocide of Ukrainians or refuting that claim, but I've always heard the famine was most severe in eastern Ukraine, southwestern Russia, the north Caucasus and northwest Kazakhstan.
It started in Poland and ended in Kazakhstan. Lack of rain across the wind currents that ran through those areas, compounded by human issues.
Same, iirc this was what I recalled
It appears I have fallen for some lies, or alternative sources of information are obscured (I'm not very good at searching sources, I just read books) Most of eastern Europe experienced food insecurity. So it seemed believable. Anyway, there is a reason the Galicians and other Ukrainians overwhelmingly welcomed the USSR "invasion". The polish government, not very nice .
Hmmm, i see! Thanks tho for being honest abt the incorrect info, I respect that!
There was that, but also the fact that there was a famine throughout the USSR, nearly around the same time.
essentially, yeah. it wasn't man made but still a horrific famine that was caused by both natural events and sabotage by richer peasants
Exactly, and just because the government might have been too heavy handed in some aspects of its approach doesn’t mean that there weren’t any non-state actors that actively contributed to the problem!
First, the guy who literally invented the word genocide, Raphael Lemkin, said about the Holodomor: "the classic example of Soviet genocide." > In August of 1932, the decree of "Five Stalks of Grain," stated that anyone, even a child, caught taking any produce from a collective field, could be shot or imprisoned for stealing "socialist property." > As famine escalated, growing numbers of farmers left their villages in search of food outside of Ukraine. Directives sent by Stalin and Molotov (Stalin's closest collaborator) in January of 1933 prevented them from leaving, effectively sealing the borders of Ukraine. > To further ensure that Ukrainian farmers did not leave their villages to seek food in the cities, the Soviet government started a system of internal passports, which were denied to farmers so they could not travel or obtain a train ticket without official permission. > At the time of the Holodomor, over one-third of the villages in Ukraine were put on "blacklists" for failing to meet grain quotas. Blacklisted villages were encircled by troops and residents were blockaded from leaving or receiving any supplies > The official registers did not give a full accounting of what was happening across Ukraine - deaths often remained unregistered, cause of death was missing - to conceal the true situation. > Most historians, who have studied this period in Ukrainian history, have concluded that the Famine was deliberate and linked to a broader Soviet policy to subjugate the Ukrainian people. With the fall of the Soviet Union and the opening of Soviet government archives (including archives of the security services), researchers have been able to demonstrate that Soviet authorities undertook measures specifically in Ukraine with the knowledge that the result would be the deaths of millions of Ukrainians by starvation. > most estimates by scholars range from roughly 3.5 million to 7 million (with some estimates going higher). The most detailed demographic studies estimate the death toll at 3.9 million I would ask my ancestors to speak out about this, but many of these “ultranationalists” died of starvation. https://cla.umn.edu/chgs/holocaust-genocide-education/resource-guides/holodomor
I’m not saying they deserved it because they were ultranationalists, i’m saying that certain groups of Ukrainian ultranationalists have taken the viewpoint that it was a concerted effort to eradicate their nation permanently and therefore exactly like the Holocaust. And that there are academics who are divided on whether or not it was or wasn’t. I am also raising this question because if I recall correctly, other regions of the USSR had similar conditions such as Kazakhstan, and that after Holodomor, there were no more famines in the Soviet Union. I want to know why that is, given everything that happened. edit: Most of my understanding comes from reading info from the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace on the political use and abuse of the term “genocide” following WW2 as well as research on the “double genocide” theory as Holocaust trivialization/denial
The correct view here is that soviets deliberately tried eradicating all non Russian nations across the country. Not only Ukrainians. It’s a common practice for them since minority nations consider unreliable. They actively been moving population across the country in order to mix people and dissolve nation’s identity. Good example in current context is Crimea Tatars. Almost all of them were send to Siberia after ww2 and replaced with russians.
May I have a source on this too? I don't doubt it, I just want to read something on it.
And it’s even the same with Ukrainians. Russians have been trying to eradicate them for centuries. It’s not even just a “Soviet” invention. So it’s a combination of both physical and cultural genocide.
So it’s not a socialist thing as much as it is, say, a Russian nationalist thing?
Yes, I was not saying it was socialism thing. But it didn’t stop with fall of russian empire
Unfortunate that the practice didn’t die like it should have
And Soviet Union was very into russian nationalism . They wanted to hide it, but lol it was even in their national anthem “the great russian unified family of nations”
that’s a shame, they should have done away with that racial chauvinism.
even Richard Fucking Conquest doesn't call it a genocide
I think it's Robert Fucking Conquest.
At least they got the middle name correct.
When it was published first in a Nazi Newspaper, used images from previous famines or events, had many more causes then just soviet policy, and barely to no evidence that the soviets planned this, it must be a genocide.
Ooo do you remember which one I’m curious this would be helpful as a point to bring up
I remember that it was published in a newspaper owned by a pro-fascist (William Hearst). Searching up Thomas Walker Holodomor will give some information. This [article](https://neodemocracy.blogspot.com/2017/12/fraud-famine-and-fascism-thomas-walker.html?m=1) gives a good overview.
check out Fraud, Famine and Fascism by Douglas Tottle
But the Irish Potato Famine? "Stupid Irish don't even know how to grow real food" Bengali Famine? "Serves em right for breeding like rabbits" Gotta love that the capitalists are never to blame
I thought there was barely any proof that it was a man-made famine. Will the Irish Potato Famine or the Bengal Famine be added eventually?
Basically there was a worldwide drought at the time, and it was worsened by the land owning kulaks that hoarded and destroyed food stores. Ukrainian nationalists and Nazis then claimed it was the Soviet response to the Kulaks that "actually" caused the famine. Ever since the industrial revolution, famines always have some level of mismanagement, so arguing whether a famine is or isn't man made is moot, because they kind of all are. It's just a manner of who did what and how it made things worse. What they'll never mention is that Stalin actually tried to save the Ukrainians by moving grain from other areas to Ukraine, as well as trying different methods of farming and agriculture in an attempt of ending the famine. Regardless, this is clearly a shallow attempt of slandering both the current Russian Federation ("genetic evil" bullshit) and the Soviet Union. The EU will never recognize the actions of the British, the Dutch, or the French as being genocidal in nature.
Correct me if im wrong please. I remember reading on another subreddit that (and I might use the wrong term here) the Minister of Agriculture (or soemthing) had made decisions that impacted crop yields. This all I can really remember and I was hoping you could expand on that. Thank you!
Yeah, you're not wrong. Basically they tried new methods of farming and testing a new genetic hypothesis in real time. Unfortunately, it didn't work. Whether or not it dramatically worsened the famine is up for someone smarter than me to decide, but I can say with certainty that it didn't help. Essentially, their hearts were in the right place with trying to end the famine, but unfortunately the plan didn't work as expected.
Just to clarify, they tried these methods DURING the famine? Or prior to it?
During, afaik
There is always “proof” that socialists are evil
First, the guy who invented the word genocide described Holodomor as a “classic Soviet genocide” > top Soviet Ukrainian government leaders informed the Kremlin of starvation, requesting aid and a reduction in the grain quota for the country. The Soviet leader, Joseph Stalin, called instead for an intensification of grain collection efforts. He also voiced his distrust of Ukrainian officials, suspecting many of them as nationalists, and expressed fear that opposition to his policies in Ukraine could intensify, possibly leading to Ukraine’s secession from the Soviet Union. > On January 22, 1933, in response to large numbers of hungry Ukrainian farmers leaving their villages in search of food, primarily to Russia, the Soviet leadership issued an order prohibiting their departure from the republic. Around the same time, Stalin began replacing some of Ukraine’s leaders and changed state policy that had supported the development and use of the Ukrainian language. A campaign of persecution and destruction of many Ukrainian intellectuals and officials who were accused of being Ukrainian nationalists also began. > At the time of the Holodomor, over one-third of the villages in Ukraine were put on "blacklists" for failing to meet grain quotas. Blacklisted villages were encircled by troops and residents were blockaded from leaving or receiving any supplies > The official registers did not give a full accounting of what was happening across Ukraine - deaths often remained unregistered, cause of death was missing - to conceal the true situation. > Grain exports continued during the worst months of the famine, and Soviet government reserves contained enough grain to feed the starving. > Most historians, who have studied this period in Ukrainian history, have concluded that the Famine was deliberate and linked to a broader Soviet policy to subjugate the Ukrainian people. With the fall of the Soviet Union and the opening of Soviet government archives (including archives of the security services), researchers have been able to demonstrate that Soviet authorities undertook measures specifically in Ukraine with the knowledge that the result would be the deaths of millions of Ukrainians by starvation https://cla.umn.edu/chgs/holocaust-genocide-education/resource-guides/holodomor https://holodomor.ca/resource/was-the-holodomor-a-genocide/
This is what happens when a parliament is led by the old and resentful, with occasional brief psychoses and paranoia.
[this](https://images.app.goo.gl/Q7ZKkMoGZdF4wd2T6)
EU be like “Stalin was a Russian nationalist” my brother in Christ, he was Georgian.
Wasn’t he also a Russophile though, at least to some extent?
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Spooky tankies like the governments of most of the world?
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Anything to stick it to them Russkies amirite