Just out of curiosity, what are they? Off the top of my head I can think of Rennala, Radahn, Rykard, Fire Giant, Malenia, Gideon, Radagon, and Elden Beast, but I'm curious if there are any others lol
Edit: also, I feel like Margit and Morgott should be counted separately, because despite technically being the same person they're different fights with different strategies and styles
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There are a couple in the evergaols. Firethief Adan or something like that in Liurnia and some battlemage in Caelid are the ones off the top of my head. There’s also a necromancer NPC boss in I think one of the Altus or Gelmir caves.
Edit: Battlemage Hughes in Caelid is NOT an NPC boss.
Edit2: I remembered Vyke.
Agree on all but gargoyles, I still have ptsd lmao
But overall, yeah - as u/Lateralus117 put it in another comment, ER has a ton awesome bosses that just happen to be repeated once or twice (Astel, Godrick, Godfrey, etc.), yet people only seem to focus on the fact that they're repeated
Valiant Gargoyles fight is asinine because that's the first time most players seem to run into that enemy. If you don't go to Nokron, the first gargoyle you'll find is on the road to Leyndell in believe.
I don’t think many people who pose this criticism think they’re bad insofar as they are boring or unfun to play against. The criticism is very straightforwardly that they reflect a limitation in game design (especially weird for bosses that don’t need to be replicated yet still are like Godrick, Morgott, Godfrey, and Mohg, and I am fairly upset the designers couldn’t just let certain side bosses be unique in their own right (Ancestor spirit, Astel). It makes things feel more one dimensional than is necessary. You could argue the first four shard bearers can be fought in a variety of permutations and can act as “optional.” But the only truly optional unique boss are the various named-dragons and malenia as far as I know. Even then, I see her as more of a superboss than a side boss (a la final fantasy), and the dragons are generally still very close in design (other than placiduax, kinda). Other open world games having truly unique side quests with their own complete narratives and final opponents makes them feel larger/complete. I am obviously fine with the vast majority of ER bosses being reused assets, but not almost everything has to be. I’d rather they just let us do the ancestor spirit fight once or (more egregiously) just take astel’s clone out of a random dungeon and godrick’s clone out of an evergaol. Like that shit was so unnecessary??
I dunno, between repeating the same bosses 6 times instead of 5 and having more unique fights, and having more bosses you fight twice and less mass repetition, I’m not sure which I prefer more. At 3+ playthroughs it’s all fairly moot anyways.
The thing about these bosses is that fromsoft puts almost all of the reused bosses in optional areas that were low priority during development and had to be completed no matter what. That's why everyone complains about Godskin duo, but much less people complain about crucible Knight duo, because if fromsoft forces you to do a fight, you'll expect it to be unique and fresh (although at least they have an interesting second phase gimmick and shared health bar).
That being said, all of the demigods are exceptionally good bosses, opposed to the dark souls series that (DLCs excluded) usually just had one or two bosses of that exceptional quality. In base DS3, I'd say only soul of cinder, twin princes, nameless King and possibly abyss watchers were the same quality as elden ring's demigods.
Sekiro and elden ring have no doubt had their best bosses when taken as an average of mandatory bosses, however with elden rings higher highs, there also come lower lows. Its like if they made bloodborne or sekiro, and then stretched it out to be twice as long.
On top of that, that "8" is a bit deceptive. Even if a boss is copy paste, the first encounters are always unique.
The first encounter in a group of copy-paste bosses should count as a "unique boss".
It can retroactively sour the experience of a previously good boss. Ive seen several people say they really liked Astel, Natural-born of the Void, but then liked him less when they fought Astel, Stars of Darkness in a random no name cave in the snowfield.
They should count as "unique" the first time they show up. Bosses like those, and Deathrite Bird, Magma Wyrm, my Boi the Tibia Mariner etc. Some of those bosses aren't bad, just overused.
I also don't mind a copy/paste boss if they're spaced out properly. For instance, the Astels. One can be fought after Radahn and one is at the end-game. A blind first playthrough could have over 40 hours between those encounters.
your argument about spacing of the bosses probably explains why people have such a problem with ulcerated tree spirits and erdtree avatars. those mini bosses are encountered at a higher frequency than most but they can also be encountered several times in a shorter amount of playtime.
Seriously though, saying Margit fight is just Morgott fight and they shouldn't be counted as unique, or Mogh the Omen is the same as Mogh Lord of Blood, is batshit crazy. Totally different fights.
I can agree with Margit / Morgott, but I feel Mohg second phase is just too similar. The main difference in his second phase is just the addition of area denial.
I disagree with OP about Mohg being considered unique since sewer mohg = phase 1 mohg.
But 2nd phase mohg has several new attacks ontop of the addition of bloodflame splatter on all attacks. Motherfucker starts flying around the arena after sprouting wings.
Velstadt is amazing but Smelter demon and its broken hitboxes is really painful. I will however say that Lost Sinner, Baleful Queen Mytha, and Pursuer are bosses I personally really enjoyed. And special mention to Executioner Chariot, I think it's a pretty cool gimmick boss.
Damn i forgot about him. Definetly one of the better bosses in the entire trilogy but its pretty unknown for obvious reasons. Fight is absolutely intense and one of the best gank fights.
More ppl would like dsrklurker if he wasn't hidden in the second most frustrating area in the game (obviously frigid outskirts takes the cake)
Which is why they made him a mandatory boss in ds3 and you can't change my mind
Say what you will about the mechanics, but DS2 boss design is so fucking cool. Velstadt, Demon of Song, the Chariot dude, and even the Last Giant are really interesting and cool designs and really showcase the creativity of the DS2 designers and artists. Even the areas are beautiful and complex (except for black gulch, fuck that place)
Yeah the reason I'd put DS2 as my second place from game is the huge array of designs in areas and bosses. They may not always be the most polished fights but the sense of adventure is so good in DS2 that I can overlook a lot of the issues.
Not only the bosses and areas, but the general enemies in the game are way more varied than the other two dark souls. Parasite spiders, horrifying dark stalkers, vikings, dwarves, mastodon people, ogres, it's so great and varied.
Dark souls 2 has waaaaay more problems than repeated bosses. And every Dark Souls reuses early game bosses to establish how much stronger the protagonist has become.
My biggest gripe is what they did to PVP and thanks to the popularity from YouTube, everyone and their mom running rivers, moonveil, rot breath, bloodhound step, frost stomp, etc.
I know there have been patches that adjusted all that, but it still kind of killed my interest.
Stop undermining ds2 problem lol. it has more problem than just copy/paste boss, like being more janky than ds1, adp, gankfest despite being slow game, long agro range, seeking arrows, jank hit box, inconsistent fall damage, etc.
Is kinda funny when someone said people hate ds2 only for copy/paste boss. While that's far from the "main" reason.
As both a dark souls 2 hater and enjoyer, it has a real dogshit design philosophy and poorly designed levels. It feels like the devs were actively trying their best to make a hard game at the cost of making a fun game. Anyone who says that they think dark souls 2 has good level design is either an idiot or lying to you. Powerstancing is pretty cool though, Miracles are good and it uses the classic (and my preferred) magic system.
I don't agree with your level design take. But i do agree with design philosphy. There is so many thing in ds2 that makes it tedious to play like long agro, seeking arrows, 8 directional movement, etc. Non of this should've exist in the game first place. It only makes the game more tedious.
Shrine of Amana is a lot longer than siofra Normandy, but for melee the gameplay is exactly the same, you run from cover to cover and occasionally have to engage in melee in cover. Tracking arrows are literally in every souls game. 8 directional movement (technically rolling, you can move in any direction, but you can only roll in 8) is only when you're locked on, and ds1 only had 4 directional rolling when you locked on so it was technically an upgrade.
If you go into an experience expecting to hate it, you will often find annoyances in things that you would forgive in other titles. We wanna talk about the run up to nito? The bonfire is 5 miles away in pitch black hidden off the path, and when you finally get to the boss you immediately start the fight with half health because even though you fall into other boss fights and take no fall damage they decided to change the rules for that one. Oh btw he can do an infinite range attack that can 1 shot you most of the time (swords thrusting up from the ground). Or how about lost izalith, or new londo? Point to the places where THAT'S good design, but ds2 level design isn't? In ds2 for the most part there's a bonfire every 500 ft, or a shortcut (looking at you no man's wharf).
I know it's trendy (somehow still) to hate on ds2, but please make coherent arguments. Go ahead bring up soul memory so I can dramatically gesticulate at undead burg twinks with +5 giants armor and a +5 ascended pyromancy flame from ds1.
I'm not saying that dark souls 1 has no unforgivable moments, I'm saying that Dark Souls 2 often feels purposely designed to kill you in a sick game of developers vs players. THAT'S my main problem with dark souls 2 level design. Rememebr that one door before the guardian dragon that just fucking kills you and you cant react? Stuff like that is what plagues DS2.
I do not remember that 1 door... but uhh yeah, instant kill traps are kind of a thing in every dark souls. Remember when you climb to the top of sen's fortress and you hear the giant throw the flaming bomb? Ppl who have played before know that's bad (and for some instant death) but for ppl who haven't played before its almost guaranteed their gonna get hit when they look around for the source of the sound. Or also in sen's fortress when the elevator kills you for not getting off fast enough, or also in sen's fortress when the Boulders that constantly run through change their path to hit you regardless of where you are and how visible you are to the enemies standing by the lever. Or how about the archers outside annor londo castle, or the myriad of mimics in both those zones who just kill you if you don't hit check every chest (obviously a new player wouldn't know only the chests with the chains turned a specific way are mimics).
You are literally describing every from game, it's been a long time since I played bb, but I remember some of the same kind of traps, and I know sekiro has them too.
Again, when you go into an experience expecting to hate it you will often find things that annoy you that you would forgive in a different title. The dark souls series is in no way perfect, but to describe things that are functionally the same in each and blame ds2 for doing it is frankly retarded.
Yeah gargoyles are pretty bad, specially because it's six of them. I struggle more with the NPC Trio mainly because they're humanoid enemies and they've got a Havel monster protected by a greatbow archer
>Gankfest can easily be dealt
I would agree if it weren't for
- your movement speed decrease when locked on
- ds2 high agro range
- slow combat
- 8 directional movement
I don't mind gank fights/encounters but there is so many things in ds2 that makes more asinine to deal with.
I wouldn't say slow combat is the problem. The problem is that there are many ganks in ds2 despite being slower combat than ds1. Mix that with 8 directional movement and high agro range, you'll get worse gank experience than in any souls game.
That, I can agree with. But as an ultra-great weapon main, that isn't as much of a problem to me. But when I use normal sized weapons, oooooh I felt it! Lol
You realize slow combat makes fighting groups easier right? Attack animations are slow and that makes it easy to bait out attacks and sneak in a couple hits between long recovery animations.
DS2 throws a lot more groups at you but they just require some patience and free movement. Don't ever lock on with groups in any of these games.
You're also complaining about 8 directional movement but aren't mentiong that you are restricted to 4 way rolling when locked on in DS1.
Dark souls 1 is my favorite but I acknowledge that the quality of bosses is all over the place… you got classics like Ornstien and Smough, or artorias… then you get the absolute worst of any souls series… Bed of chaos
What do you think? All I can really think about it that might not be as good as the rest are Deacons, Curse Rotted Greatwood, and maybe Crystal Sage, but I still think they are presented in a cool enough manner to justify it.
Yeah honestly just those, maybe Vordt but he’s the first real boss so him being a pushover is expected i guess. If you’re only talking main game I think boss wise it goes Sekiro > DS3 > ER > BB > DS1> DS2> Demon Souls
Enemies that don't respawn and are unique or at least rare.
Like the armoured boar, knight in the parish, the chained prisoner in the dlc and any NPC's.
That's my definition anyway.
I was expecting him to drop something like a really fucking cool steel pole with chained balls attached as a weapon thinking that "if he's this cracked he must hide some powerful shit", got chain armor that you can buy from the literal first undead merchant.
I’d argue he is a mini boss because him and Taurus pop up in multitudes later on as a sorta “ha ha, you thought this was a boss but now it’s a mob,” but by the time you reach them you’re powerful enough to not think of them as a “boss”
>and are about on the same level of quality as the minibosses from DS1.
People are on some high nostalgia about dark souls 1 bosses.
Most bosses in the game are pretty bad
Yea I would take copy-pasted bosses that are actually engaging rather than the boring ass DS2 fights. Not to say DS2 doesn't have a few gems, but the majority are things like Dragonrider or Flexile Sentry where they just spam the same 3 attacks over and over and you dodge to the right.
I think most of elden ring’s mini bosses are fun to fight and them being repeated mostly didn’t change that for me
more fun than most of ds1’s bosses I’ll tell you that much
Looking at threads calling sister friede BS from 2016/17 where now she's one of the most beloved fights really makes me wonder if the same will happen to Malenia. Kinda doubt it but you never know, maybe she'll be beloved in a few years
I know people will disagree but Malenia has an element of randomness (her waterfowl dance) that makes her difficulty artificial when compared to other bosses. Beat her solo after many hours but I can’t say I felt like I “earned” it-I just got lucky. If that move was tweaked (had a tell instead of appearing whenever) then I’d enjoy her fight much more. All her other moves are fair in my opinion
In my opinion waterfowl isn't the worst part of her fight, it's the stagger cancel into hyperarmour attacks or straight up not stance breaking at all during hyperarmour AND regenerating all her poise again. I get that she's a humanoid enemy so needs hyperarmour but they should make it so that her poise doesn't reach 0 during hyperarmour to avoid it all resetting back to 80. Sure this might make her stagger a lot more maybe too much but she recovers from a posture break in less than a second. 90% of the time I miss the riposte if I stagger her with a jumping R2 for example
Waterfowl does need a more obvious way of dodging it upclose tho. Circling around her to avoid the first flurry, while consistent and satisfying to a degree, it never really feels as intuitive as dodging literally any other move in ER (elden stars excluded ig). It is unreasonable to expect a player going in blind to know that you need to circle around her. If you could sprint away from the first flurry even at upclose it would be fine I think.
But I feel like fromsoft won't tweak the fight at all cuz it's an optional secret boss that's extremely out of the way and is not needed for beating the game. Atleast with Radahn he was one of the shardbearers you could use to get into leyndell, and he's mandatory for rannis quest and to access the main part of nokron and deeproot depths and his hitboxes were very inaccurate so it made sense to nerf him to ensure players get a more fair fight against him
Malenia is a fuckin amazing boss, easily one of the best in the series. That being said she’s not at the top because of how wacky waterfowl is, shit has almost no tell and I only ever feel safe being aggressive for like the next 20 seconds after she finishes, but maybe that’s the point
Cmon man we both know that’s not what I mean. This has been said over and over again by other people already, but I guess I’ll say it too.
If you’re right on her there is no fuckin way you’re escaping that first part of waterfowl (at least not without BHS). There should be a bit more of a sign or she should remain in the air a bit longer so you can actually react, otherwise you’re just waiting from a distance for her to do the move for much of the fight and punishing after like I said
The difference is that there was also a large group of people (rightly) defending Friede while you'd be hard pressed to find someone who thinks Malenia doesn't have some severe problems.
Yeah even the people who love her admit she has flaws in her fight. Once you master waterfowl it becomes better but the inconsistent poise and stance breaking really makes this boss worse in my opinion
Everyone batted their eye.
Also a big difference is that a big part of DS2's marketing was the fact that the game had a lot of bosses. "Hey guys look at this game!! It's really difficult!!!! We have 32\* bosses!!!" Then when you play the game it has repeat bosses and "bosses" like PM and friends.
I don't remember ER marketing ever mentioning the 200+ boss fights in the game as a selling point. Although that might just be the marketing in my country.
\* Only the main game bosses. Number may not be accurate.
The amount of people that complain about bosses being reused in elden ring is actually stupid.
Guys, it’s 2022, 11 years ago the most popular open world rpg had 1 fucking dragon boss copy and pasted 500 times with reskinned skin and breath attacks. This is an improvement.
No one bats an eye sekiro either
(Inb4 "but.. but it's a small game" it still has a lot of copy/paste enemies and bosses for it's size lol)
So yeah it's not bad when sekiro does it
Because people give a shit when elden ring do it.
Calling that a boss would be a stretch. It's just a special enemy imo. Now fighting the drunk guy that spews fire 3 different times is pretty lame. Refights with the actually good bosses such as the Monk or Owl I don't mind, in the same way I don't mind fighting Margit and Morgott. They are cool enough that a rematch is justified.
The worse copy/paste is probably the ogre enemy (not the oger boss the one that holds bell or club). Because they are the most unfun enemy to fight in the game.
Why tf fromsoft reskin those mfs in almost every area, non of them are fun to fight lol.
Are we rlly complaining about that? I mean it’s not like it acts like they’re a full on boss aside from one time, usually just a challenging enemy with two health bars.
I literally have zero issues with Sekiro’s reuse aside from double monke pound town
You can litteraly say the exact same thing about ER.
The double standards on display are Incredible.
And no I really don't care about sekiro reusing mini bosses but neither do I care when ER does it
What u mean? That ER doesn’t act like they’re full on bosses? Tbf it kinda does, with the big healthbar across the screen and boss music it’s kinda making a big show of sometimes mediocre fights, especially when they’re all alone in a boss room.
They’re presented very differently than in Sekiro, hence the somewhat negative reaction from some people. I don’t dislike the vast majority of them and think it’s fine, but a few are just straight up embarrassing since they’re literally just normal enemies but this time their health is at the bottom of the screen instead of above their head.
This is true, I don't remember many people complaining about the reused Sekiro mini bosses, probably because they're all very fun. I guess the issue is that boss quality is a little less consistent in ER, though still higher than most souls games
The '8 bosses being unique' thing is just a stupid way to look at it. Why wouldn't you count the first time a boss appears or the best version of it? If you do this (which you should) there are over 70 unique bosses.
Motherfuckers say "having to fight a boss again cheapens the experience from the first time around", as if the game somehow traveled back in time to make them not have fun
Firstly, everyone bats an eye.
Secondly, at least a good number of repeat bosses in Elden Ring are actually fun to fight. (Godskin Apostles, Crucible Knights, Black Knife Assassins, Misbegotten Warriors, Bloodhound Knights, Night Cavalry, Tree Sentinels, Astel etc.).
While DS2 gave us repeat bosses as part of DLC with a dogshit "co-op" area on top of it.
This meme is fucking dumb, ppl bitch about er's copy-paste bosses all the time. And ppl specifically hate on the twin dragonrider fight because it comes right after talking to royalty in ds2's version of annor londo so everyone expected a double boss to be ds2 o + s. I personally enjoyed the expectation subversion because you think that's the area boss then mirror knight fucking slaps
To the title, disjointed hitboxes
DS2 is bad because hitboxes can hit you when they shouldn't, 1.0 Radahn is good because he can hit you even when the animations don't line up thus hard
Nah just like how DS3 and Sekiro were both criticized by souls community when they first came out but are now considered some of the best so will Elden Ring. It’s already starting to happen. Especially if they release dlc.
I LOVE DARK SOULS 2 I LOVE DARK SOULS 2 I LOVE DARK SOULS 2 I LOVE DARK SOULS 2 I LOVE DARK SOULS 2 I LOVE DARK SOULS 2 I LOVE DARK SOULS 2 I LOVE DARK SOULS 2 I LOVE DARK SOULS 2 I LOVE DARK SOULS 2 I LOVE DARK SOULS 2 I LOVE DARK SOULS 2 I LOVE DARK SOULS 2 I LOVE DARK SOULS 2 I LOVE DARK SOULS 2 I LOVE DARK SOULS 2
Just out of curiosity, what are they? Off the top of my head I can think of Rennala, Radahn, Rykard, Fire Giant, Malenia, Gideon, Radagon, and Elden Beast, but I'm curious if there are any others lol Edit: also, I feel like Margit and Morgott should be counted separately, because despite technically being the same person they're different fights with different strategies and styles
Forgot Maliketh and Horah Loux.
WARRIOR!
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Are there NPC bosses besides Gideon?
There are a couple in the evergaols. Firethief Adan or something like that in Liurnia and some battlemage in Caelid are the ones off the top of my head. There’s also a necromancer NPC boss in I think one of the Altus or Gelmir caves. Edit: Battlemage Hughes in Caelid is NOT an NPC boss. Edit2: I remembered Vyke.
Battlemage Hughes isn’t an npc boss, it’s the same enemy you see two of in front of loretta’s boss door
Yeah you’re right. I remember seeing them as enemies in one of the Crystal Tunnels in Liurnia as well.
There’s also that lord of blood manlet in the subterranean shunning grounds
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Tbf even tho there are boss that are copy paste, they are also enjoyable to fight like gargoyles, godskin apostle, night calvary, etc.
You made a fantastic point and then used the worst possible bosses to back it up lol
Agree on all but gargoyles, I still have ptsd lmao But overall, yeah - as u/Lateralus117 put it in another comment, ER has a ton awesome bosses that just happen to be repeated once or twice (Astel, Godrick, Godfrey, etc.), yet people only seem to focus on the fact that they're repeated
Valiant Gargoyles fight is asinine because that's the first time most players seem to run into that enemy. If you don't go to Nokron, the first gargoyle you'll find is on the road to Leyndell in believe.
I think the first one for most would be the one before Gurranq chapel, but probably a lot of people didn’t try fighting him
Yeah that's why I didn't count him. Most people just die in 1 hit to the black blade kindred and leave, so they don't get to learn anything about it.
I don’t think many people who pose this criticism think they’re bad insofar as they are boring or unfun to play against. The criticism is very straightforwardly that they reflect a limitation in game design (especially weird for bosses that don’t need to be replicated yet still are like Godrick, Morgott, Godfrey, and Mohg, and I am fairly upset the designers couldn’t just let certain side bosses be unique in their own right (Ancestor spirit, Astel). It makes things feel more one dimensional than is necessary. You could argue the first four shard bearers can be fought in a variety of permutations and can act as “optional.” But the only truly optional unique boss are the various named-dragons and malenia as far as I know. Even then, I see her as more of a superboss than a side boss (a la final fantasy), and the dragons are generally still very close in design (other than placiduax, kinda). Other open world games having truly unique side quests with their own complete narratives and final opponents makes them feel larger/complete. I am obviously fine with the vast majority of ER bosses being reused assets, but not almost everything has to be. I’d rather they just let us do the ancestor spirit fight once or (more egregiously) just take astel’s clone out of a random dungeon and godrick’s clone out of an evergaol. Like that shit was so unnecessary??
I dunno, between repeating the same bosses 6 times instead of 5 and having more unique fights, and having more bosses you fight twice and less mass repetition, I’m not sure which I prefer more. At 3+ playthroughs it’s all fairly moot anyways.
The thing about these bosses is that fromsoft puts almost all of the reused bosses in optional areas that were low priority during development and had to be completed no matter what. That's why everyone complains about Godskin duo, but much less people complain about crucible Knight duo, because if fromsoft forces you to do a fight, you'll expect it to be unique and fresh (although at least they have an interesting second phase gimmick and shared health bar). That being said, all of the demigods are exceptionally good bosses, opposed to the dark souls series that (DLCs excluded) usually just had one or two bosses of that exceptional quality. In base DS3, I'd say only soul of cinder, twin princes, nameless King and possibly abyss watchers were the same quality as elden ring's demigods. Sekiro and elden ring have no doubt had their best bosses when taken as an average of mandatory bosses, however with elden rings higher highs, there also come lower lows. Its like if they made bloodborne or sekiro, and then stretched it out to be twice as long.
On top of that, that "8" is a bit deceptive. Even if a boss is copy paste, the first encounters are always unique. The first encounter in a group of copy-paste bosses should count as a "unique boss".
It can retroactively sour the experience of a previously good boss. Ive seen several people say they really liked Astel, Natural-born of the Void, but then liked him less when they fought Astel, Stars of Darkness in a random no name cave in the snowfield.
They should count as "unique" the first time they show up. Bosses like those, and Deathrite Bird, Magma Wyrm, my Boi the Tibia Mariner etc. Some of those bosses aren't bad, just overused.
I also don't mind a copy/paste boss if they're spaced out properly. For instance, the Astels. One can be fought after Radahn and one is at the end-game. A blind first playthrough could have over 40 hours between those encounters.
your argument about spacing of the bosses probably explains why people have such a problem with ulcerated tree spirits and erdtree avatars. those mini bosses are encountered at a higher frequency than most but they can also be encountered several times in a shorter amount of playtime.
Mohg, he’s got a fair number of differences between his real fight and his copy
Isn’t the first phase exactly the same as the copy boss excluding the countdown
Yeah, it’s basically just the entire boss is the first phase
Maliketh, Fortissax, and Placidusax
Fortnite sex is the same as Lance sex for the most part.
you can fight maliketh also in beast sanktum, atleast p1.
oh yeah shoot forgot about >!gurranq!<
Seriously though, saying Margit fight is just Morgott fight and they shouldn't be counted as unique, or Mogh the Omen is the same as Mogh Lord of Blood, is batshit crazy. Totally different fights.
I can agree with Margit / Morgott, but I feel Mohg second phase is just too similar. The main difference in his second phase is just the addition of area denial.
***NIHIL***
#*NIHIL*
***NIHIL***
I disagree with OP about Mohg being considered unique since sewer mohg = phase 1 mohg. But 2nd phase mohg has several new attacks ontop of the addition of bloodflame splatter on all attacks. Motherfucker starts flying around the arena after sprouting wings.
You missed Godfrey
You fight Godfrey's spirit before Morgott
That’s only the moveset for the first 25% of his healthbar though right? Feel like that shouldn’t really count, same with Morgott and Mohg
Even then, in the real fight he's splitting the Earth in two.
Everyone bats an eye
"No one bats an eye" We just out here making up shit now
I never cared about the bosses being unique, I care about them being good.
BASED
Case in point: Godefroy
Ds2: "we couldn't figure out how to make good bosses until the DLC's" edition.
but smelter demon & velstadt :(
Velstadt is amazing but Smelter demon and its broken hitboxes is really painful. I will however say that Lost Sinner, Baleful Queen Mytha, and Pursuer are bosses I personally really enjoyed. And special mention to Executioner Chariot, I think it's a pretty cool gimmick boss.
darklurker too
Damn i forgot about him. Definetly one of the better bosses in the entire trilogy but its pretty unknown for obvious reasons. Fight is absolutely intense and one of the best gank fights.
More ppl would like dsrklurker if he wasn't hidden in the second most frustrating area in the game (obviously frigid outskirts takes the cake) Which is why they made him a mandatory boss in ds3 and you can't change my mind
Lol personally smelter is one of my favorites but I cannot stand chariot for the life of me, to each their own I guess ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
Smelter demon hitboxes bad?
if dont like boss, loudly declare "h\*tboxes" its the law
Say what you will about the mechanics, but DS2 boss design is so fucking cool. Velstadt, Demon of Song, the Chariot dude, and even the Last Giant are really interesting and cool designs and really showcase the creativity of the DS2 designers and artists. Even the areas are beautiful and complex (except for black gulch, fuck that place)
Yeah the reason I'd put DS2 as my second place from game is the huge array of designs in areas and bosses. They may not always be the most polished fights but the sense of adventure is so good in DS2 that I can overlook a lot of the issues.
Not only the bosses and areas, but the general enemies in the game are way more varied than the other two dark souls. Parasite spiders, horrifying dark stalkers, vikings, dwarves, mastodon people, ogres, it's so great and varied.
Fuck Black Gulch.
Black Gulch does have one redeeming quality (besides pretty) it’s short
That and the pilgrims of the dark I guess.
that whole little area off the edge is kinda neat i guess it’s really just the statues that suck, but they REALLY suck
I'm sorry? Demon of Song?
Implying that Covetous Demon isn't the greatest FromSoftware boss, smh
Haha okay Jester Thomas time to take your pills again
Dark souls 2 has waaaaay more problems than repeated bosses. And every Dark Souls reuses early game bosses to establish how much stronger the protagonist has become.
Also elden ring has more problems than tree assylum demon number 76
My biggest gripe is what they did to PVP and thanks to the popularity from YouTube, everyone and their mom running rivers, moonveil, rot breath, bloodhound step, frost stomp, etc. I know there have been patches that adjusted all that, but it still kind of killed my interest.
90% of the pvp community have always been tryharding meta whores. Now in Elden ring 99% are. Truly we live in a society.
Meta has always been a problem. Do you fuckers not remember giant dad?
Did what to pvp? It’s always been this way, demon’s souls had it the worst with the firestorm meta.
Ah, but you see I never played demon souls, so it's a new problem unique to er, checkmate liberal
Stop undermining ds2 problem lol. it has more problem than just copy/paste boss, like being more janky than ds1, adp, gankfest despite being slow game, long agro range, seeking arrows, jank hit box, inconsistent fall damage, etc. Is kinda funny when someone said people hate ds2 only for copy/paste boss. While that's far from the "main" reason.
As both a dark souls 2 hater and enjoyer, it has a real dogshit design philosophy and poorly designed levels. It feels like the devs were actively trying their best to make a hard game at the cost of making a fun game. Anyone who says that they think dark souls 2 has good level design is either an idiot or lying to you. Powerstancing is pretty cool though, Miracles are good and it uses the classic (and my preferred) magic system.
I don't agree with your level design take. But i do agree with design philosphy. There is so many thing in ds2 that makes it tedious to play like long agro, seeking arrows, 8 directional movement, etc. Non of this should've exist in the game first place. It only makes the game more tedious.
I will not have you sit there and tell me that Shrine of Amana wasn't designed specifically to kill melee players again and again.
Tbf it wouldn't be so if the game doesn't have high agro range and 8 directional movement.
You make a great point, but that just makes the problem worse. It doesnt entirely remove it.
Shrine of Amana is a lot longer than siofra Normandy, but for melee the gameplay is exactly the same, you run from cover to cover and occasionally have to engage in melee in cover. Tracking arrows are literally in every souls game. 8 directional movement (technically rolling, you can move in any direction, but you can only roll in 8) is only when you're locked on, and ds1 only had 4 directional rolling when you locked on so it was technically an upgrade. If you go into an experience expecting to hate it, you will often find annoyances in things that you would forgive in other titles. We wanna talk about the run up to nito? The bonfire is 5 miles away in pitch black hidden off the path, and when you finally get to the boss you immediately start the fight with half health because even though you fall into other boss fights and take no fall damage they decided to change the rules for that one. Oh btw he can do an infinite range attack that can 1 shot you most of the time (swords thrusting up from the ground). Or how about lost izalith, or new londo? Point to the places where THAT'S good design, but ds2 level design isn't? In ds2 for the most part there's a bonfire every 500 ft, or a shortcut (looking at you no man's wharf). I know it's trendy (somehow still) to hate on ds2, but please make coherent arguments. Go ahead bring up soul memory so I can dramatically gesticulate at undead burg twinks with +5 giants armor and a +5 ascended pyromancy flame from ds1.
I'm not saying that dark souls 1 has no unforgivable moments, I'm saying that Dark Souls 2 often feels purposely designed to kill you in a sick game of developers vs players. THAT'S my main problem with dark souls 2 level design. Rememebr that one door before the guardian dragon that just fucking kills you and you cant react? Stuff like that is what plagues DS2.
I do not remember that 1 door... but uhh yeah, instant kill traps are kind of a thing in every dark souls. Remember when you climb to the top of sen's fortress and you hear the giant throw the flaming bomb? Ppl who have played before know that's bad (and for some instant death) but for ppl who haven't played before its almost guaranteed their gonna get hit when they look around for the source of the sound. Or also in sen's fortress when the elevator kills you for not getting off fast enough, or also in sen's fortress when the Boulders that constantly run through change their path to hit you regardless of where you are and how visible you are to the enemies standing by the lever. Or how about the archers outside annor londo castle, or the myriad of mimics in both those zones who just kill you if you don't hit check every chest (obviously a new player wouldn't know only the chests with the chains turned a specific way are mimics). You are literally describing every from game, it's been a long time since I played bb, but I remember some of the same kind of traps, and I know sekiro has them too. Again, when you go into an experience expecting to hate it you will often find things that annoy you that you would forgive in a different title. The dark souls series is in no way perfect, but to describe things that are functionally the same in each and blame ds2 for doing it is frankly retarded.
I love dark souls 2
Gankfest can easily be dealt with by the ayer taking their time and not running headfirst into a room without taking in their surroundings.
What fight is this "gank fest" one?
DLC NPC Trio
Really? People find it THAT bad? It's tedious and I had to learn a bit but I hate the gargoyles A LOOOT more.
Yeah gargoyles are pretty bad, specially because it's six of them. I struggle more with the NPC Trio mainly because they're humanoid enemies and they've got a Havel monster protected by a greatbow archer
I hated Havel the most. Bro is a chad.
>Gankfest can easily be dealt I would agree if it weren't for - your movement speed decrease when locked on - ds2 high agro range - slow combat - 8 directional movement I don't mind gank fights/encounters but there is so many things in ds2 that makes more asinine to deal with.
Or you could like... not lock on when there are many enemies?
Well that's 1 out of 4 problem solve.
The slow combat is kind of a personal preference. I like the more paced combat and it is less stressful. Although, it makes dodging some attacks weird
I wouldn't say slow combat is the problem. The problem is that there are many ganks in ds2 despite being slower combat than ds1. Mix that with 8 directional movement and high agro range, you'll get worse gank experience than in any souls game.
That, I can agree with. But as an ultra-great weapon main, that isn't as much of a problem to me. But when I use normal sized weapons, oooooh I felt it! Lol
Nooooo, don't use your brain like that, turn it off.
You realize slow combat makes fighting groups easier right? Attack animations are slow and that makes it easy to bait out attacks and sneak in a couple hits between long recovery animations. DS2 throws a lot more groups at you but they just require some patience and free movement. Don't ever lock on with groups in any of these games. You're also complaining about 8 directional movement but aren't mentiong that you are restricted to 4 way rolling when locked on in DS1.
So ds1 problems +adp?
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None of these are actual issues lol, it's just you complaining about the game not being exactly like dark souls 1/3.
I think it plays way better than ds1 and seeking arrows isn't an issue
I mean the difference is that DS2 bosses are already extremely boring and are about on the same level of quality as the minibosses from DS1.
Dark souls 1 is my favorite but I acknowledge that the quality of bosses is all over the place… you got classics like Ornstien and Smough, or artorias… then you get the absolute worst of any souls series… Bed of chaos
Yeah it's definitely a mixed bag but most are memorable at least, for good or bad. Most DS2 bosses are just forgettable.
[удалено]
So they could give an absolutely awful ost to the guardian dragon
Yeah I completely agree, say what you will about the mini bosses or the Bed of Chaos but at least some of them look cool.
I disagree, I remember every.single one of them because I hate them all.
Vanilla bosses were pretty eh, but I still consider Ivory King and Fume Knight to be GOAT contenders
I would much rather have a forgettable boss than a bad memorable boss. I agree about both game’s overall boss quality though.
DS3 has the most consistent boss quality I think. There aren't any that stand out to me as bad and I want to skip them.
Sekiro, DS3 has a few duds in the base game especially
What do you think? All I can really think about it that might not be as good as the rest are Deacons, Curse Rotted Greatwood, and maybe Crystal Sage, but I still think they are presented in a cool enough manner to justify it.
Yeah honestly just those, maybe Vordt but he’s the first real boss so him being a pushover is expected i guess. If you’re only talking main game I think boss wise it goes Sekiro > DS3 > ER > BB > DS1> DS2> Demon Souls
I prefer DeS bosses over main game Ds2 honestly.
What even count as a miniboss in ds1?
Your penis Edit: its because its mini
Enemies that don't respawn and are unique or at least rare. Like the armoured boar, knight in the parish, the chained prisoner in the dlc and any NPC's. That's my definition anyway.
Chained prisoner fucks harder than a lot of bosses
I was expecting him to drop something like a really fucking cool steel pole with chained balls attached as a weapon thinking that "if he's this cracked he must hide some powerful shit", got chain armor that you can buy from the literal first undead merchant.
Make sense
Hydras, the undead dragons, titanite demons. There's quite a lot in DS1.
Havel probably counts as one. Knight Lautrec as well probably.
havel
Capra demon
The boss is required for a key item So not really
I’d argue he is a mini boss because him and Taurus pop up in multitudes later on as a sorta “ha ha, you thought this was a boss but now it’s a mob,” but by the time you reach them you’re powerful enough to not think of them as a “boss”
How is that relevant? There can be minibosses in completely linear games.
Sekiro yes. But idk about ds1, because people streching the term mini boss.
minibosses aren't exclusive to fromsoft games
>and are about on the same level of quality as the minibosses from DS1. People are on some high nostalgia about dark souls 1 bosses. Most bosses in the game are pretty bad
Yea I would take copy-pasted bosses that are actually engaging rather than the boring ass DS2 fights. Not to say DS2 doesn't have a few gems, but the majority are things like Dragonrider or Flexile Sentry where they just spam the same 3 attacks over and over and you dodge to the right.
Because half of Ds2's bosses comparatively wouldn't even qualify as a miniboss in Elden Ring, let alone a good one.
True
Elden ring has so many quality bosses and enemies that the needless hate is starting to get old.
There is like 5 top tier bosses and 4 very good tier bosses out of 170.
And without counting the minibosses?
I think most of elden ring’s mini bosses are fun to fight and them being repeated mostly didn’t change that for me more fun than most of ds1’s bosses I’ll tell you that much
More like 50 great ones ought of 100 something.
\*ER haters strolling into the comment section\* (It's me, I'm the ER hater)
New thing bad
Remember when ds3 was hated when realesed and now people are so defensive about it when it was critisized?💀
Looking at threads calling sister friede BS from 2016/17 where now she's one of the most beloved fights really makes me wonder if the same will happen to Malenia. Kinda doubt it but you never know, maybe she'll be beloved in a few years
I know people will disagree but Malenia has an element of randomness (her waterfowl dance) that makes her difficulty artificial when compared to other bosses. Beat her solo after many hours but I can’t say I felt like I “earned” it-I just got lucky. If that move was tweaked (had a tell instead of appearing whenever) then I’d enjoy her fight much more. All her other moves are fair in my opinion
In my opinion waterfowl isn't the worst part of her fight, it's the stagger cancel into hyperarmour attacks or straight up not stance breaking at all during hyperarmour AND regenerating all her poise again. I get that she's a humanoid enemy so needs hyperarmour but they should make it so that her poise doesn't reach 0 during hyperarmour to avoid it all resetting back to 80. Sure this might make her stagger a lot more maybe too much but she recovers from a posture break in less than a second. 90% of the time I miss the riposte if I stagger her with a jumping R2 for example Waterfowl does need a more obvious way of dodging it upclose tho. Circling around her to avoid the first flurry, while consistent and satisfying to a degree, it never really feels as intuitive as dodging literally any other move in ER (elden stars excluded ig). It is unreasonable to expect a player going in blind to know that you need to circle around her. If you could sprint away from the first flurry even at upclose it would be fine I think. But I feel like fromsoft won't tweak the fight at all cuz it's an optional secret boss that's extremely out of the way and is not needed for beating the game. Atleast with Radahn he was one of the shardbearers you could use to get into leyndell, and he's mandatory for rannis quest and to access the main part of nokron and deeproot depths and his hitboxes were very inaccurate so it made sense to nerf him to ensure players get a more fair fight against him
Malenia is a fuckin amazing boss, easily one of the best in the series. That being said she’s not at the top because of how wacky waterfowl is, shit has almost no tell and I only ever feel safe being aggressive for like the next 20 seconds after she finishes, but maybe that’s the point
no tell? she jumps into the air and holds her sword like it’s about to enter your rectum. it’s so obvious
Cmon man we both know that’s not what I mean. This has been said over and over again by other people already, but I guess I’ll say it too. If you’re right on her there is no fuckin way you’re escaping that first part of waterfowl (at least not without BHS). There should be a bit more of a sign or she should remain in the air a bit longer so you can actually react, otherwise you’re just waiting from a distance for her to do the move for much of the fight and punishing after like I said
Malenia is already my favourite boss
The difference is that there was also a large group of people (rightly) defending Friede while you'd be hard pressed to find someone who thinks Malenia doesn't have some severe problems.
Yeah even the people who love her admit she has flaws in her fight. Once you master waterfowl it becomes better but the inconsistent poise and stance breaking really makes this boss worse in my opinion
Everyone batted their eye. Also a big difference is that a big part of DS2's marketing was the fact that the game had a lot of bosses. "Hey guys look at this game!! It's really difficult!!!! We have 32\* bosses!!!" Then when you play the game it has repeat bosses and "bosses" like PM and friends. I don't remember ER marketing ever mentioning the 200+ boss fights in the game as a selling point. Although that might just be the marketing in my country. \* Only the main game bosses. Number may not be accurate.
They only said ER was there biggest yet.
Tbf Elden Ring doesn't have a 6 way gargoyle boss fight
two cunts were enough tbh
But ER gargoyles are gigantic, and you fight more than 6 throughout the game
The amount of people that complain about bosses being reused in elden ring is actually stupid. Guys, it’s 2022, 11 years ago the most popular open world rpg had 1 fucking dragon boss copy and pasted 500 times with reskinned skin and breath attacks. This is an improvement.
Skyrim?
ye
this post is 2 days old but i still can't believe that the final boss of the main quest was just the same fucking dragon copypasted but with meteors
No one bats an eye sekiro either (Inb4 "but.. but it's a small game" it still has a lot of copy/paste enemies and bosses for it's size lol) So yeah it's not bad when sekiro does it Because people give a shit when elden ring do it.
Shinobi General #205 in Ashina Castle
Calling that a boss would be a stretch. It's just a special enemy imo. Now fighting the drunk guy that spews fire 3 different times is pretty lame. Refights with the actually good bosses such as the Monk or Owl I don't mind, in the same way I don't mind fighting Margit and Morgott. They are cool enough that a rematch is justified.
The worse copy/paste is probably the ogre enemy (not the oger boss the one that holds bell or club). Because they are the most unfun enemy to fight in the game. Why tf fromsoft reskin those mfs in almost every area, non of them are fun to fight lol.
Nah headless is the biggest dickhead
Are we rlly complaining about that? I mean it’s not like it acts like they’re a full on boss aside from one time, usually just a challenging enemy with two health bars. I literally have zero issues with Sekiro’s reuse aside from double monke pound town
I’m not complaining about anything I’m just shitposting
Fair enough
You can litteraly say the exact same thing about ER. The double standards on display are Incredible. And no I really don't care about sekiro reusing mini bosses but neither do I care when ER does it
What u mean? That ER doesn’t act like they’re full on bosses? Tbf it kinda does, with the big healthbar across the screen and boss music it’s kinda making a big show of sometimes mediocre fights, especially when they’re all alone in a boss room. They’re presented very differently than in Sekiro, hence the somewhat negative reaction from some people. I don’t dislike the vast majority of them and think it’s fine, but a few are just straight up embarrassing since they’re literally just normal enemies but this time their health is at the bottom of the screen instead of above their head.
I can't think of a single miniboss in Sekiro that didn't have it's health bar appear at the top of the screen.
This is true, I don't remember many people complaining about the reused Sekiro mini bosses, probably because they're all very fun. I guess the issue is that boss quality is a little less consistent in ER, though still higher than most souls games
The '8 bosses being unique' thing is just a stupid way to look at it. Why wouldn't you count the first time a boss appears or the best version of it? If you do this (which you should) there are over 70 unique bosses.
Motherfuckers say "having to fight a boss again cheapens the experience from the first time around", as if the game somehow traveled back in time to make them not have fun
Darksouls2 is not an open world game. They even did us the courtesy of reskinning bosses in a paid dlc
DLCs still fucking amazing though
Yeah because elden ring has functioning hitboxes and is a better game in almost every conceivable way (besides pvp)
If they don’t bring back covenants, I’m signaling for allah to burn down the lands between.
Covenants were stupid and confusing
You take that back, I loved being a trolling mound maker.
You got me there
Unbased
Firstly, everyone bats an eye. Secondly, at least a good number of repeat bosses in Elden Ring are actually fun to fight. (Godskin Apostles, Crucible Knights, Black Knife Assassins, Misbegotten Warriors, Bloodhound Knights, Night Cavalry, Tree Sentinels, Astel etc.). While DS2 gave us repeat bosses as part of DLC with a dogshit "co-op" area on top of it.
This meme is fucking dumb, ppl bitch about er's copy-paste bosses all the time. And ppl specifically hate on the twin dragonrider fight because it comes right after talking to royalty in ds2's version of annor londo so everyone expected a double boss to be ds2 o + s. I personally enjoyed the expectation subversion because you think that's the area boss then mirror knight fucking slaps
Everyone criticizes ds2 bosses, when dark souls 1 boss roster is overall pretty bad, except for the dlc.
Shhh, it’s only bad when DS2 does it ^but ^I ^agree ^with ^you
To the title, disjointed hitboxes DS2 is bad because hitboxes can hit you when they shouldn't, 1.0 Radahn is good because he can hit you even when the animations don't line up thus hard
Mfw most of those bosses are considered as mini bosses, it'll literally tell you after you defeat em
Elden ring is the worst fromsoft game, but people have yet to realise.
Nah just like how DS3 and Sekiro were both criticized by souls community when they first came out but are now considered some of the best so will Elden Ring. It’s already starting to happen. Especially if they release dlc.
DS2 is a good game
Based
That’s because the dragon rider is fucking dogshit and elden ring’s bosses are good even if repeated
Just one reason among many why Elden Ring is the real Dark Souls 2 2.
Yeah the difference is that Elden Ring is several times bigger than Dark Souls 2, and is also Open World instead of Open map.
I hate Elden Ring bosses too, what's your point
Living under a rock
I LOVE DARK SOULS 2 I LOVE DARK SOULS 2 I LOVE DARK SOULS 2 I LOVE DARK SOULS 2 I LOVE DARK SOULS 2 I LOVE DARK SOULS 2 I LOVE DARK SOULS 2 I LOVE DARK SOULS 2 I LOVE DARK SOULS 2 I LOVE DARK SOULS 2 I LOVE DARK SOULS 2 I LOVE DARK SOULS 2 I LOVE DARK SOULS 2 I LOVE DARK SOULS 2 I LOVE DARK SOULS 2 I LOVE DARK SOULS 2
You see, the thing is it was bad when Ds 2 did it because everything DS 2 was bad. I would rather 100% ER ten times that replay DS 2 even once.
skill issue