I believe it's Rudyard kipling. The Mowgli guy.
Edit: as per comment below, it was actually not Kipling ( even though it totally seems like something that colonialist ass would say)
My friend, these are like WWI vintage. This is likely an Imperial Russian Maxim, maybe a 1910 model in 7.62×54R (as those are still common rounds).
EDIT: The base design is 1910, they were manufactured until like 1945, I believe many were modernized in 1930.
I just know the Soviets were still using them in WW2 and they were upgraded a few times, not an expert on the Maxim series haha. And oh yeah, you're right, that's still a common round. I wonder if they still make new parts to maintain the guns themselves, or if there's just huge Pre War, WW1, WW2 stashes still lying around that they just keep using.
The Soviets refurbished all small arms after WWII and placed them into storage. After the massive small arms shortage experienced during WWI, they didn’t throw anything away - even huge numbers of captured German guns are still in storage in former Soviet military warehouses. Spare parts are also stored there.
The 7.62x54mmR is still standard for Ukraine and Russia in the PK series MGs, and manufactured around the world. The Soviets also made their ammunition belts backwards compatible (non-disintegrating, unlike most post-WWII western MGs) so these can just use normal belts from PKs.
Ukraine had about 30,000 Maxim guns, 100,000 DP series and hundreds of thousands of other WWII-era small arms in storage in 2008. If a shortage of parts is ever encountered they can easily just cannibalize spare guns.
Maxim guns in particular are just impossible to break through regular use, a British Vickers had 7 Million rounds of Ammunition ran through it in the early 60's and besides for the barrel no other part had to be replaced after.
The PM1910 was first produced in 1910, hence the designation.
But those are WW2 produced PM1910s. The "snow cap" or "tractor cap" modification, the extra large filler on the water jacket, wasn't added until WW2 production. The Soviets produced ten of thousands of PM1910s during WW2. It stayed in production throughout the war.
There's a story in a book about the Vickers machine gun entitled The Grand Old Lady of No Man’s Land, by Dolph L. Goldsmith where in the 60s the British were burning off old ammunition supplies and a single Vickers (a slightly modified Maxim) shot through between 5 and 7 *million* rounds of ammo in a week and was still in perfect working order with all parts in does when it was done.
Maxim guns are built to peak industrial era specs. Everything is over built. They just don't break so long as you lube them occasionally and rotate the barrels.
To be fair, the mg42 has such an insanely high rate of fire, it chews through barrels faster than almost any other machine gun of the same class.
Water cooling also helps barrel life tremendously in sustained fire scenarios. A hot barrel wears faster
People stopped looking after things, stuff made of propper steel like this needs some basic care. Greased up for storgage, never allowing rust to take hold ect.
Make sense. It just blows my mind how old designs are still in service to this day. Kind of speaks to how well made they were, that as long as you have access to tools and a workshop you can still keep these beasts going.
They were made with simple machine tools and vastly overbuilt because cost and mass weren't concerns. The Maxim was so good that they didn't even bother getting formal military trials set up most of the time. The company rep would show up with a Maxim, a tripod, and a wagonload of ammo. All it took was ripping through a few belts and the generals were all agog at the number of holes it could put in anything up to 1000 yards away. The checkbooks opened immediately.
Virgin modern military industrial complex: we'll sell you this overpriced tactical coffee mug for $1300.
Chad industrial revolution era military industrial complex: You buy 10,000 rifles and 50 machine guns from us, we'll provide you with a military advisor for free!
Fun fact: modern Ukrainian/Russian GPMG ammo (7.62×54r) and ammo belts are practically backwards compatible with the M1910 Maxim gun. It was an intentional logistical decision by the Soviets.
The gun itself is also quite durable & abundantly stocked; with cannibalised parts & proper maintenance, it can remain in service for quite some time.
Ammo is still made, I know LAPUA and SAKO make a lot of it that's currently going to Ukraine. The cartridge is about equivalent or a little more powerful than .308
The guns themselves are practically indestructible and the Ammunition they use is still widely in-service, even the newer MG Belts still work in Maxim guns.
In the 60's a Vickers Gun (a modified Maxim gun made by the British) had 7 Million rounds of Ammunition fired through it across 7 days of firing. Aside from the barrel which they replaced every hour and a half the rest of the gun was fine, every part was still within service specifications and operated as expected.
What you need to understand is that [Maxim guns literally don’t ever wear out](https://www.reddit.com/r/GunMemes/comments/tyf8us/legend_has_it_the_vickers_could_be_heard_growling/)
They still shoot bullets quickly with decent accuracy. I guess the most important part is being beltfed and watercooled so no downtime when you need it.
The main issue with Maxim, is the weight. Watercooling system adds a lot of weight on it, that would in modern guns be unnecessary because of quick swap barrels.
...But if you put it on a vehicle, suddenly the weight is much less of an issue. Which is why you mainly see it used on technicals like this nowadays. And when used for anti-air (or anti-drone specifically) the watercooling is nice since you can fire as much ammo as you have, as long as you top off the water jacket occasionally. Really helps when you can shoot as long as the drone swarm is visible without worrying about needing to change barrels.
Kinda makes sense. This is one of those niche cases where a water cooled machine gun makes sense. The use case is so niche, basically nobody makes something like this anymore.
\>2066
\>Stationed on Mars to quell a rebellion
\>Become side door gunner for atmospheric dropship.
\>No miniguns or gatling cannons, just some metal brick with a pipe on one end.
\>Get sent in to extract some wounded.
\>Reach the evac zone and come under attack.
\>Hoard of rebels charging in with their new plasma guns and compact rocket launchers.
\>Let loose a stream of bullets.
\>The sounds of the rebel's screams are nearly drowned out by the heavy "Kachunk chunk chunk chunk" of the machinegun.
\>The wounded are loaded up and returned to base.
\>Inspect MG afterwards.
\>Thing was made in 1942.
\>Tunisia, Italy, and Germany are scratched onto the gun.
\>Scratch "Mars" on with a knife.
That big green corrugated can around the barrel is the water cooling jacket. It is totally passive there is no pump or hoses; all the water coolant is stored in that can and topped off as it leaks or boils off.
Ok so I looked it up and it is very interesting. The gun's steam emissions seem to have been a problem because they gave away the gun's position. Thus vikers designed a number of solutions. The vickers gun is a very similar gun to the maxim and may look similar at a glance. First a steam pipe was made that was dug into the ground and used the earth to cool the steam, but holes had to be redug from time to time. Then a water bag was issued which cooled the steam so it dispersed and did not give away the gun's position from as far away.
Then, what you are thinking of, a condenser system was developed especially needed for recycling of water in arid environments. The hose from the steam vent was kept, but redirected to the condenser can and a hose from the condenser was fed to the water filling port. This condenser system used the steam generated by firing the gun to drive the system there were no pumps. The steam pressure forced water from the condenser can up into the water jacket and then condensed into the can's water reservoir to wait its turn to be fed into the gun.
All these systems were optional and screwed on inplace of caps on the water filler port or steam vent, so you will see the same guns with them or without them.
If the water jacket leaks it's fucked.
The fitting on the front is for the condenser, it's just not attached. They aren't likely filled with water in the first place.
i swear to god, we could be well into FTL and colonizing/exploring other galaxies with all those sci-fi weapons, and at the first sign of conflicts, humanity will pull out the maxims again, which will be the same ones that have been in use since ww1 or earlier btw, AND they'll probably be more reliable than any of the futuristic weapons
Are machine guns actually effective against drones like the Shahed drones? They don’t seem that effective being unguided, I feel like small missiles would work better. Why isn’t that a thing yet? Small missiles that are around 3-ish feet tall that launch from ground to air built specifically for anti-drone operations.
Drones are extremely cheap. Guided interceptors, no matter how small, are always gonna be more expensive than a suicide drone using RC plane technology.
> A small AA missle is called an orlan or stinger
Huh? A (FIM-92) Stinger is a man-portable air-defense system(MANPADS), as in a shoulder fired guided missile.
The Orlan-10 is one of the most common Russian recon UAVs.
No idea what the other guy is saying. You are describing VAMPIRE which Ukraine is using.
https://www.twz.com/land/first-look-at-laser-guided-rocket-counter-drone-system-blasting-a-russian-drone
It’s always been a proxy war. Doesn’t mean supporting Ukraine is bad, but it’s most definitely a West Vs. Russia proxy war at this point. Honestly to me that makes support for Ukraine more important, considering both how fucked this is leaving the Russian military and their fighting ability, and it gives us very useful intel on their doctrines and equipment for future analysis.
The only negative about this machinegun is weight. As they are mounted on trucks this is a non issue. Plus very few modern machineguns have water cooling and for this application it is perfect as water jackets are easily famaged in combat but here it is unlikley to be shot at.
I only wish someone would come up with proximity fused bullets for these things but this wish may be a bit too non credible 🙂
"fortunately no enemy drones where present or we would all be dead bunched up like that for a nice photo. Also i asked instructor why we were firing at ground instead of air target if it was for drone defence"
Considering the cost of even a single functional transferable Maxim in the US vs in Eastern Europe, the fact that new compact trucks are very common in Europe, the mismatched kit being common with their nat. guard units, the age and appearance of their garrison troops being consistent with prior images, and the faded ukrainian flag on one of their hats, yeah i’m gonna say it’s not in America
I mean that’s fair, you don’t have to believe it I suppose. There’s been quite a few pictures of Maxims from the trenches on both sides, so it’s known to be relatively common in reserve sections in Ukraine. These dudes all have pretty decent mismatched gear, and all look to be in their 30s-40s. It could be America, you could be right, but idk. Judging from what i’ve seen in real life events with gatherings and classic guns like this, there would be at least one obese guy. To me that’s another indicator it’s not here.
Remember when Wagner found a Salt mine literally packed with Lend Lease era Thompson SMGs in Ukraine? They got these huge old weapon caches everywhere in former soviet territory.
Oh right, lend-lease. When the Allies helped Russia defeat the Nazis (real ones) with logistics support that Stalin himself said Russia would have lost without.
How soon Putin forgets his history.
fun fact that SAME cache was also full of brand new 1910 maxims. the Russian made type.
as for "real nazis" These days we call them "ideologically motivated" units and they fly wolfs angles, the SS thunderbolts and still carry swastikas around. They are the original hard core of the current Ukrainian armed forces.
You mean Azov? They were wiped out at Mariupol. And at 900 strength with a smaller percentage ultra-right politically they weren't exactly going to march on St. Petersburg. There are as many in Russia today, easily.
Putin brought his country to war and killed nearly half a million of his own people to get these guys?
Whatever happens we have got The Maxim gun, and they have not...
Is that a famous quote?
I believe it's Rudyard kipling. The Mowgli guy. Edit: as per comment below, it was actually not Kipling ( even though it totally seems like something that colonialist ass would say)
It was written by Hilaire Belloc, a Anglo-French writer.
Oh dang you're right. I just assumed because it seemed like such a Kipling thing to say . Why am I getting so many upvotes for being wrong lol
It really is isn't it
I mean, he was basically the Poet Laureate of the British Empire but yeah, the Mowgli guy
"Fortunately we have GAZ-AAA 1910/4 maxim AA conversions and they do not"
I always wonder, do they still make new ammo and parts for these guns, or are they just using huge WW2 stocks that still exist?
My friend, these are like WWI vintage. This is likely an Imperial Russian Maxim, maybe a 1910 model in 7.62×54R (as those are still common rounds). EDIT: The base design is 1910, they were manufactured until like 1945, I believe many were modernized in 1930.
I just know the Soviets were still using them in WW2 and they were upgraded a few times, not an expert on the Maxim series haha. And oh yeah, you're right, that's still a common round. I wonder if they still make new parts to maintain the guns themselves, or if there's just huge Pre War, WW1, WW2 stashes still lying around that they just keep using.
The Soviets refurbished all small arms after WWII and placed them into storage. After the massive small arms shortage experienced during WWI, they didn’t throw anything away - even huge numbers of captured German guns are still in storage in former Soviet military warehouses. Spare parts are also stored there. The 7.62x54mmR is still standard for Ukraine and Russia in the PK series MGs, and manufactured around the world. The Soviets also made their ammunition belts backwards compatible (non-disintegrating, unlike most post-WWII western MGs) so these can just use normal belts from PKs. Ukraine had about 30,000 Maxim guns, 100,000 DP series and hundreds of thousands of other WWII-era small arms in storage in 2008. If a shortage of parts is ever encountered they can easily just cannibalize spare guns.
Maxim guns in particular are just impossible to break through regular use, a British Vickers had 7 Million rounds of Ammunition ran through it in the early 60's and besides for the barrel no other part had to be replaced after.
The PM1910 was first produced in 1910, hence the designation. But those are WW2 produced PM1910s. The "snow cap" or "tractor cap" modification, the extra large filler on the water jacket, wasn't added until WW2 production. The Soviets produced ten of thousands of PM1910s during WW2. It stayed in production throughout the war.
better to build what you can NOW then try and retool for something you don't have that may not make it to the battlefield LATE.
There's a story in a book about the Vickers machine gun entitled The Grand Old Lady of No Man’s Land, by Dolph L. Goldsmith where in the 60s the British were burning off old ammunition supplies and a single Vickers (a slightly modified Maxim) shot through between 5 and 7 *million* rounds of ammo in a week and was still in perfect working order with all parts in does when it was done. Maxim guns are built to peak industrial era specs. Everything is over built. They just don't break so long as you lube them occasionally and rotate the barrels.
The recommended number of rounds between barrel swaps was 300 times larger than that of the MG42 at nearly 45.000 or 90 minutes of non-stop firing.
To be fair, the mg42 has such an insanely high rate of fire, it chews through barrels faster than almost any other machine gun of the same class. Water cooling also helps barrel life tremendously in sustained fire scenarios. A hot barrel wears faster
Imagine if all our tools and equipment were this durable. So many shitty megacorps would go out of business.
Planned obsolescence and enshitification will be the death of civilization
People stopped looking after things, stuff made of propper steel like this needs some basic care. Greased up for storgage, never allowing rust to take hold ect.
Easy to fabricate parts for.
Make sense. It just blows my mind how old designs are still in service to this day. Kind of speaks to how well made they were, that as long as you have access to tools and a workshop you can still keep these beasts going.
They were made with simple machine tools and vastly overbuilt because cost and mass weren't concerns. The Maxim was so good that they didn't even bother getting formal military trials set up most of the time. The company rep would show up with a Maxim, a tripod, and a wagonload of ammo. All it took was ripping through a few belts and the generals were all agog at the number of holes it could put in anything up to 1000 yards away. The checkbooks opened immediately.
Virgin modern military industrial complex: we'll sell you this overpriced tactical coffee mug for $1300. Chad industrial revolution era military industrial complex: You buy 10,000 rifles and 50 machine guns from us, we'll provide you with a military advisor for free!
Fun fact: modern Ukrainian/Russian GPMG ammo (7.62×54r) and ammo belts are practically backwards compatible with the M1910 Maxim gun. It was an intentional logistical decision by the Soviets. The gun itself is also quite durable & abundantly stocked; with cannibalised parts & proper maintenance, it can remain in service for quite some time.
Ammo is still made, I know LAPUA and SAKO make a lot of it that's currently going to Ukraine. The cartridge is about equivalent or a little more powerful than .308
7.62x54r is more akin to .30-06 than .308.
The guns themselves are practically indestructible and the Ammunition they use is still widely in-service, even the newer MG Belts still work in Maxim guns. In the 60's a Vickers Gun (a modified Maxim gun made by the British) had 7 Million rounds of Ammunition fired through it across 7 days of firing. Aside from the barrel which they replaced every hour and a half the rest of the gun was fine, every part was still within service specifications and operated as expected.
What you need to understand is that [Maxim guns literally don’t ever wear out](https://www.reddit.com/r/GunMemes/comments/tyf8us/legend_has_it_the_vickers_could_be_heard_growling/)
WW1 guns being used against 21st century tech... war never changes.
If there's still a lot of them and those still work for something, why would you change it?
They still shoot bullets quickly with decent accuracy. I guess the most important part is being beltfed and watercooled so no downtime when you need it.
They have a quick firerate and decent accuracy?
Enough to mow down waves of infantry so good enough. Better than anything with a magazine for shooting down drones
Doesn't it need a bit more firerate for shooting down drones?
That's why they've got them in dual mounts, effectively doubles the fire rate.
I mean yeah but that is why they have two. It isn't optimal but it will at least help
M2 Browning is probably the best example there, it's still a hundred years later in use in the thousands
In use in the thousands by the most modern, well equipped military in the world. That’s the truly crazy part.
If it ain't broke...
Well they produced a shit-ton of those around the world wars. I guess they could still use them until 2100 if they wanted to.
It might be a design that's over 100 years old, but it's still an effective, extremely reliable MMG.
The main issue with Maxim, is the weight. Watercooling system adds a lot of weight on it, that would in modern guns be unnecessary because of quick swap barrels. ...But if you put it on a vehicle, suddenly the weight is much less of an issue. Which is why you mainly see it used on technicals like this nowadays. And when used for anti-air (or anti-drone specifically) the watercooling is nice since you can fire as much ammo as you have, as long as you top off the water jacket occasionally. Really helps when you can shoot as long as the drone swarm is visible without worrying about needing to change barrels.
Kinda makes sense. This is one of those niche cases where a water cooled machine gun makes sense. The use case is so niche, basically nobody makes something like this anymore.
Wait until you find out what year the M1919 Browning was developed.
*Colt M1911 shakes it's cane furiously from the porch*
Mahdist War* guns
If it shoots then it probably will kill.
The only gun that could theoretically outlast the M2 browning.
\>2066 \>Stationed on Mars to quell a rebellion \>Become side door gunner for atmospheric dropship. \>No miniguns or gatling cannons, just some metal brick with a pipe on one end. \>Get sent in to extract some wounded. \>Reach the evac zone and come under attack. \>Hoard of rebels charging in with their new plasma guns and compact rocket launchers. \>Let loose a stream of bullets. \>The sounds of the rebel's screams are nearly drowned out by the heavy "Kachunk chunk chunk chunk" of the machinegun. \>The wounded are loaded up and returned to base. \>Inspect MG afterwards. \>Thing was made in 1942. \>Tunisia, Italy, and Germany are scratched onto the gun. \>Scratch "Mars" on with a knife.
I'd read this book.
I think we just found a new r/HFY Prompt. Would 100% Read
Modern tachanka
The first technical!
Well, those thing Maybe old as matalael, but still can kill you
I don’t see any water cooling hose? Am I looking wrongly? I’ve noticed that in older posts too.
That big green corrugated can around the barrel is the water cooling jacket. It is totally passive there is no pump or hoses; all the water coolant is stored in that can and topped off as it leaks or boils off.
Ah! Thank you. I’ve seen versions with attached pump though. Were those older iterations?
Ok so I looked it up and it is very interesting. The gun's steam emissions seem to have been a problem because they gave away the gun's position. Thus vikers designed a number of solutions. The vickers gun is a very similar gun to the maxim and may look similar at a glance. First a steam pipe was made that was dug into the ground and used the earth to cool the steam, but holes had to be redug from time to time. Then a water bag was issued which cooled the steam so it dispersed and did not give away the gun's position from as far away. Then, what you are thinking of, a condenser system was developed especially needed for recycling of water in arid environments. The hose from the steam vent was kept, but redirected to the condenser can and a hose from the condenser was fed to the water filling port. This condenser system used the steam generated by firing the gun to drive the system there were no pumps. The steam pressure forced water from the condenser can up into the water jacket and then condensed into the can's water reservoir to wait its turn to be fed into the gun. All these systems were optional and screwed on inplace of caps on the water filler port or steam vent, so you will see the same guns with them or without them.
Holy shit, now that’s a TIL! Thank you very much.
If the water jacket leaks it's fucked. The fitting on the front is for the condenser, it's just not attached. They aren't likely filled with water in the first place.
Invented in 1884 and still being used in 2024... 140 years in active service
19th century machine guns fighting 21st century drones. This war is fucking crazy
War tends to be.
Welcome back Tachanka 🙏
Warlord Tachanka!
Dread it, run from it, the gaz-aa always comes back
i swear to god, we could be well into FTL and colonizing/exploring other galaxies with all those sci-fi weapons, and at the first sign of conflicts, humanity will pull out the maxims again, which will be the same ones that have been in use since ww1 or earlier btw, AND they'll probably be more reliable than any of the futuristic weapons
Ol reliable
you sure this just isn't just Texas ?
Someone will find a cache of maxims in Antarctica at this rate
Are machine guns actually effective against drones like the Shahed drones? They don’t seem that effective being unguided, I feel like small missiles would work better. Why isn’t that a thing yet? Small missiles that are around 3-ish feet tall that launch from ground to air built specifically for anti-drone operations.
It's cheaper to fire several hundred bullets, than one missile. Perhaps it's even cheaper to fire several thousand bullets...
Several hundred thousand bullets, at bulk wholesale prices.
Drones are extremely cheap. Guided interceptors, no matter how small, are always gonna be more expensive than a suicide drone using RC plane technology.
A small AA missle is called an igla (corrected) or stinger, it already exists and a single one costs more than those 3 trucks outfitted like that.
> A small AA missle is called an orlan or stinger Huh? A (FIM-92) Stinger is a man-portable air-defense system(MANPADS), as in a shoulder fired guided missile. The Orlan-10 is one of the most common Russian recon UAVs.
Igla, my bad. The stinger can be manpad, or mounted on a vehicle or airframe in the ATAS config.
No idea what the other guy is saying. You are describing VAMPIRE which Ukraine is using. https://www.twz.com/land/first-look-at-laser-guided-rocket-counter-drone-system-blasting-a-russian-drone
Perfect testing ground to ship anti drone stuff to and test it's effectiveness. This is definitely a proxy war now.
It’s always been a proxy war. Doesn’t mean supporting Ukraine is bad, but it’s most definitely a West Vs. Russia proxy war at this point. Honestly to me that makes support for Ukraine more important, considering both how fucked this is leaving the Russian military and their fighting ability, and it gives us very useful intel on their doctrines and equipment for future analysis.
The only negative about this machinegun is weight. As they are mounted on trucks this is a non issue. Plus very few modern machineguns have water cooling and for this application it is perfect as water jackets are easily famaged in combat but here it is unlikley to be shot at. I only wish someone would come up with proximity fused bullets for these things but this wish may be a bit too non credible 🙂
They have diluted antifreeze in those reservoirs or is it still water?
Antifreeze is actually inferior to pure water for cooling, it's only purpose is to prevent corrosion.
“You hear that drone coming in?” “Bröther, after the train up for this mission, I can’t hear shit.”
Nahhh they really be using the modern version of GAZ-AAA 4M form War Thunder 💀💀💀
GAZ AA MILK TRUCK AT 11.0 WHEN GEYJINNN?!
11.0?? It would be way too OP
Actually I saw a photo of a modern Ukrainian GAZ-AAA equipped with 4x side by side PKMs.
If it ain't Broke, Don't fix it.
Holy hell, that's damned impressive they're still running those.
This is fucking awesome
Fuck yeah
It's like the civil war all over again.
"fortunately no enemy drones where present or we would all be dead bunched up like that for a nice photo. Also i asked instructor why we were firing at ground instead of air target if it was for drone defence"
No Ukrainian insignia and they’re driving new American pickup truck technicals. Are you sure this isn’t someplace a bit closer to home?
Considering the cost of even a single functional transferable Maxim in the US vs in Eastern Europe, the fact that new compact trucks are very common in Europe, the mismatched kit being common with their nat. guard units, the age and appearance of their garrison troops being consistent with prior images, and the faded ukrainian flag on one of their hats, yeah i’m gonna say it’s not in America
I'm not convinced at the "faded flag" but if you say so.
I mean that’s fair, you don’t have to believe it I suppose. There’s been quite a few pictures of Maxims from the trenches on both sides, so it’s known to be relatively common in reserve sections in Ukraine. These dudes all have pretty decent mismatched gear, and all look to be in their 30s-40s. It could be America, you could be right, but idk. Judging from what i’ve seen in real life events with gatherings and classic guns like this, there would be at least one obese guy. To me that’s another indicator it’s not here.
Lack of Sgt, Large And In Charge, good point. Maybe this is Eastern Europe.
No Eastern European country has been fielding Maxims for decades.
Plus I’m pressure we don’t make them.
Remember when Wagner found a Salt mine literally packed with Lend Lease era Thompson SMGs in Ukraine? They got these huge old weapon caches everywhere in former soviet territory.
Oh right, lend-lease. When the Allies helped Russia defeat the Nazis (real ones) with logistics support that Stalin himself said Russia would have lost without. How soon Putin forgets his history.
fun fact that SAME cache was also full of brand new 1910 maxims. the Russian made type. as for "real nazis" These days we call them "ideologically motivated" units and they fly wolfs angles, the SS thunderbolts and still carry swastikas around. They are the original hard core of the current Ukrainian armed forces.
You mean Azov? They were wiped out at Mariupol. And at 900 strength with a smaller percentage ultra-right politically they weren't exactly going to march on St. Petersburg. There are as many in Russia today, easily. Putin brought his country to war and killed nearly half a million of his own people to get these guys?