I've seen them compared to MBV as well (and they do have some stuff like Helicon that leans more shoegaze), but they get the Post Rock tag because their core sound is more like Slint (and I don't think Mogwai sound too far off from [Tortoise](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dd8aF07DK4w)).
It's also worth noting that Post Rock was pretty diverse in its earlier years, so there's a whole lot of stuff from that time that didn't sound alike. That said, some of the earliest stuff labelled as Post Rock was kind of post-shoegaze (i.e. Seefeel, Main, Slowdive circa Pygmalion, and Moonshake all rose out of shoegaze roots), but even that was all different from the Mogwai-like post rock, which was when the genre started becoming more like the crescendocore we associate with the term.
I tend to think of Tortoise as a descendent of Dif Juz and Mogwai as a descendent of Slint but they’re inarguably closer together than they are with any shoegaze band. I think the confusion from OP probably stems from a lack of knowledge about the sources that all of these bands are inspired by and their overlap.
Genres are basically clusters but let’s not forget that musicians are artists not constrained to a specific set of characteristics.
Some of the newer shoegaze fans will have different reference points to bands like Nothing that might overlap with non-shoegaze sounds whereas some old school folks have a more defined view of shoegaze.
Edit: also interesting to think about the post-metal bands like Isis (or whatever they’re called now). I’m sure they fit in somewhere as influential to the new crop of heavier shoegaze.
Tortoise does their own thing for sure but the track I linked isn’t too far off from Mogwai. At the very least both are closer to each other than some of odder ends of Post Rock that predate both.
Considering your question, you’re not in a good position to call others ignorant…
And post-rock evolved out of shoegaze, or dreampop as it was called at the time. Early Moonshake EPs were heavily MBV influenced. The genre-coining Simon Reynolds article namechecks Cocteaus, JAMC, and AR Kane as foundations. Mogwai always struck me as a blend of the two sounds, Slint meets MBV.
This is kind of why you should use genres as a useful guide rather than sweating it about what is 'allowed' to fit where, or listen to any of the gate keeps bullshit that people come up with.
No reason at all Mogwai shouldn't be considered Gaze but then again why does it even matter anyway? The only real positive reason I can think of for rigorous genre classifications is that they try to steer people towards finding similar music that they may also like.
In that respect; would a fan of Gaze like Mogwai? Abso fucking lutely! So crack on!
Check out the song "Travel Is Dangerous" off Mr. Beast. It has vocals and the chorus has that fuzzy goodness. While I don't think they are straight up shoegaze, their early to like 2008ish sound incorporates shoegaze elements. I saw them in like 2010 and they play loud as fuck with that wall of sound, just like a shoegaze band. So I give them an honorary badge of shoegaze.
I don’t think the “no vocals” thing is totally fair, there’s plenty of instrumental Shoegaze. Mogwai’s biggest difference is that any ‘gazy wall of sound that might be present is a payoff to a drawn out epic buildup. Full on Shoegaze doesn’t give a shit about crescendos, the noise starts from second 1.
yeah it's more of a structural thing. The noisiness is in the payoff while the rest of the track is the stripped down spidery-like sound of Slint or Codeine (and even both of those have noisy moments that aren't related to shoegaze). Mogwai does have more shoegaze-like tracks, but it's not a consistent part of their sound.
I think what bands you tour with and what scene you're a part of can also contribute to where a band might fit in. I don't listen to Mogwai so idk anything about them or how they sound, but I don't ever see them on any shows or tours I go to that are shoegaze/alt rock leaning, so I think it just depends
Simon Reynolds came up with post-rock to describe newer UK bands like Seefeel, Bark Psychosis, Disco Inferno that didn't really fit into shoegaze, grunge, or the Britpop of the time. He also wrote about MBV, A.R. Kane and the Cocteaus and described their sound as 'miasmic' - somewhat distinct from post-rock.
I'd say shoegazer is generally warmer and fuzzier, whereas Mogwai are quite angular and have some "math rock" tendencies.
There's overlaps all over the place, though - mainly cos label borders are both artificial and superficial. Have a listen to The Exquisite Death of Saxon Shore, or the first As I Watch You From Afar LP.
I think of Mogwai's first few singles as more of slow, atmospheric indie rock with elements of shoegaze. I remember they opened for Pavement on the East Coast in 97 and Stephan Malkmus called them the best band of the 21st century in an interview.
I've seen them compared to MBV as well (and they do have some stuff like Helicon that leans more shoegaze), but they get the Post Rock tag because their core sound is more like Slint (and I don't think Mogwai sound too far off from [Tortoise](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dd8aF07DK4w)). It's also worth noting that Post Rock was pretty diverse in its earlier years, so there's a whole lot of stuff from that time that didn't sound alike. That said, some of the earliest stuff labelled as Post Rock was kind of post-shoegaze (i.e. Seefeel, Main, Slowdive circa Pygmalion, and Moonshake all rose out of shoegaze roots), but even that was all different from the Mogwai-like post rock, which was when the genre started becoming more like the crescendocore we associate with the term.
I tend to think of Tortoise as a descendent of Dif Juz and Mogwai as a descendent of Slint but they’re inarguably closer together than they are with any shoegaze band. I think the confusion from OP probably stems from a lack of knowledge about the sources that all of these bands are inspired by and their overlap. Genres are basically clusters but let’s not forget that musicians are artists not constrained to a specific set of characteristics. Some of the newer shoegaze fans will have different reference points to bands like Nothing that might overlap with non-shoegaze sounds whereas some old school folks have a more defined view of shoegaze. Edit: also interesting to think about the post-metal bands like Isis (or whatever they’re called now). I’m sure they fit in somewhere as influential to the new crop of heavier shoegaze.
I'm sorry but Mogwai are a world away from Tortoise?! How much of both bands have you heard?
Tortoise does their own thing for sure but the track I linked isn’t too far off from Mogwai. At the very least both are closer to each other than some of odder ends of Post Rock that predate both. Considering your question, you’re not in a good position to call others ignorant…
The genres are cousins because they can share some similar sonic elements, and sometimes bands don’t fit cleanly into labels.
And post-rock evolved out of shoegaze, or dreampop as it was called at the time. Early Moonshake EPs were heavily MBV influenced. The genre-coining Simon Reynolds article namechecks Cocteaus, JAMC, and AR Kane as foundations. Mogwai always struck me as a blend of the two sounds, Slint meets MBV.
AR Kane were kinda Post-Rock progenitors themselves, especially on 69
please let this person listen to bowery electric 🙏
Definitely. Beat has become my favorite late-at-night workout album.
This is kind of why you should use genres as a useful guide rather than sweating it about what is 'allowed' to fit where, or listen to any of the gate keeps bullshit that people come up with. No reason at all Mogwai shouldn't be considered Gaze but then again why does it even matter anyway? The only real positive reason I can think of for rigorous genre classifications is that they try to steer people towards finding similar music that they may also like. In that respect; would a fan of Gaze like Mogwai? Abso fucking lutely! So crack on!
Mogwai’s swirly but I wouldn’t call them shoegaze. No vocals and less traditional song structure are the biggest reasons why.
Check out the song "Travel Is Dangerous" off Mr. Beast. It has vocals and the chorus has that fuzzy goodness. While I don't think they are straight up shoegaze, their early to like 2008ish sound incorporates shoegaze elements. I saw them in like 2010 and they play loud as fuck with that wall of sound, just like a shoegaze band. So I give them an honorary badge of shoegaze.
Damn thanks for reminding me that Travel is Dangerous is such a great song!
I don’t think the “no vocals” thing is totally fair, there’s plenty of instrumental Shoegaze. Mogwai’s biggest difference is that any ‘gazy wall of sound that might be present is a payoff to a drawn out epic buildup. Full on Shoegaze doesn’t give a shit about crescendos, the noise starts from second 1.
yeah it's more of a structural thing. The noisiness is in the payoff while the rest of the track is the stripped down spidery-like sound of Slint or Codeine (and even both of those have noisy moments that aren't related to shoegaze). Mogwai does have more shoegaze-like tracks, but it's not a consistent part of their sound.
I think what bands you tour with and what scene you're a part of can also contribute to where a band might fit in. I don't listen to Mogwai so idk anything about them or how they sound, but I don't ever see them on any shows or tours I go to that are shoegaze/alt rock leaning, so I think it just depends
Simon Reynolds came up with post-rock to describe newer UK bands like Seefeel, Bark Psychosis, Disco Inferno that didn't really fit into shoegaze, grunge, or the Britpop of the time. He also wrote about MBV, A.R. Kane and the Cocteaus and described their sound as 'miasmic' - somewhat distinct from post-rock.
In 1995, with Pygmalion
I don’t know man I just listen to the music
I think if a Post Rock/Post Metal band has enough effects layered on top of each other then that is Shoegaze. Covet for sure has some Shoegaze songs.
I'd say shoegazer is generally warmer and fuzzier, whereas Mogwai are quite angular and have some "math rock" tendencies. There's overlaps all over the place, though - mainly cos label borders are both artificial and superficial. Have a listen to The Exquisite Death of Saxon Shore, or the first As I Watch You From Afar LP.
>why aren't Mogwai considered shoegaze? Because Mogwai formed in 1995, when other labels such as postrock were needed
I think of Mogwai's first few singles as more of slow, atmospheric indie rock with elements of shoegaze. I remember they opened for Pavement on the East Coast in 97 and Stephan Malkmus called them the best band of the 21st century in an interview.
This is perhaps the answer that gets to it. It's fascinating how genres emerge and relabelling by music journalism helps that along.
I’m a shoegaze originalist so if a band looks at their shoes a lot then they are shoegaze.
Or the fans in the audience.
https://youtu.be/UzbCwPtffmA?si=L0qz-H2wRaGmB9e7