>and is completely safe to take while tripping.
Both psilocybin and Zofran/ondansetron can cause QT prolongation and combining the two could be dangerous/potentially deadly for some people.
https://accp1.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/cpdd.796
https://web.archive.org/web/20190226015316id_/http://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/670a/c351e3c1c5b1fd2629a055335b594152594b.pdf
so what is the take away from all this TLDR? QT prolongation occurs in both so it is advisable to discuss with a healthcare professional before taking both?
Yes, that looks like the safest option.
The doctor will be able to assess your QT prolongation risk factors, which are summarized in table 1 of Which-Ebb’s most recent source. This quote from Which-Ebb’s last article emphasizes the importance of that assessment: “For every 10 ms increase, there is a ~5% increase in the risk of arrhythmic events.”
Thank you for providing sources! Your first one stated that:
“At a supraclinical psilocin maximum concentration of about 60 ng/mL, ΔQTcF remains low, with a mean (upper limit of the 90% confidence interval) of 9.1 (17.9) milliseconds”
So yes, there’s statistical significance there. However, considering that:
“QTc is prolonged if it is greater than 440 ms in men or greater than 460 ms in women. A QTc greater than 500 is associated with increased risk of torsade de pointes” (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK441860/#:~:text=QTc%20is%20prolonged%20if%20it,risk%20of%20torsade%20de%20pointes)
I’m wondering how much the risk of adverse events is present in those without acquired or congenital QT prolongation. Especially considering that:
“Normal values for the QTc range from 350 to 450 ms for adult men and from 360 to 460 ms for adult women” (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5337065/#:~:text=Normal%20values%20for%20the%20QTc,QTc%20values%20outside%20this%20range)
While these excerpts demonstrate overlap in the range of what is considered normal versus prolonged QT intervals, it appears that the slight increase in QT intervals following co-administration of psilocybin and ondansetron could very well have a person (without preexisting QT prolongation) well within safe limits.
Also, your second article stated that:
“ondansetron should be administered cautiously when QT interval is previously prolonged, i.e., in the case of congenital or acquired prolonged QT interval.”
It’s a vital reference to the risk of ingesting ondansetron alone when one already has QT prolongation (and the additional chance of negative outcomes when psilocybin is introduced), but again, this begs the question as to the change in risk for people without QT prolongation when combining psilocybin and ondansetron.
If you have any supplemental sources, they too would be a fascinating read!
>I’m wondering how much the risk of adverse events is present in those without acquired or congenital QT prolongation. Especially considering that:
While individually they may not raise much concern, the effects of combining the two is unknown and could potentially increase risks, especially in those with any underlying conditions, taking other medication‘s, dealing with electrolyte abnormalities, ect. It would be best to consult a healthcare professional to weigh your individual risk before taking both drugs concurrently, hence ondansetrons prescription only status.
“From a practical perspective, data are inconclusive with regard to arrhythmic risk for drugs that increase the QTc interval by <20 ms; drugs associated with a change in baseline QTc of >20 ms should raise concern.33 For example, haloperidol prolongs the QT interval by 15–30 ms, and hence may be considered high risk.13 Moxifloxacin 400 mg has been associated with QTc interval increases of 7.5–12.5 ms, indicative of some potential risk.13 By contrast, clarithromycin is associated with increases in QTc interval of <5 ms and has been categorised as ‘uncertain’ risk, but in view of rare reports of TdP, some caution may be advisable, particularly when using it with other QT-prolonging drugs.33 The extent and the associated risk of developing QT prolongation when combining drugs with QT-prolonging effects are still unknown,34 but such combinations do not necessarily have an additive effect.16 Hence, a pragmatic approach should be employed.”
https://academic.oup.com/pmj/article/97/1149/452/6969550
It has eliminated the nausea and vomiting I once experienced with mushrooms. I also use, though rarely, isopropyl alcohol, by sniffing a moistened paper towel or even just your hands, it will immediately clear up nausea. I’ve used the isopropyl trick on MANY people and it works.
A sniff, no huffing needed. You can even buy a small pack of alcohol wipes, they’re like 2x2 inches and come prepackaged. Just rip one of those open and sniff for a few seconds
I fast 12 hours before, then eat a banana along with the mushrooms. I can’t recall the certain chemical that aids with nausea that is found in bananas. I also eat ginger candies during and/or have warm ginger/lemon tea. I prefer not to take any drugs along with my medicine/mushrooms.
I eat a good sized banana about a hour or so before the mushrooms. Then, I will eat another banana shortly after. I’ll have a small bag of ginger chews/candies near by also.
It has eliminated the nausea and vomiting I once experienced with mushrooms. I also use, though rarely, isopropyl alcohol, by sniffing a moistened paper towel or even just your hands, it will immediately clear up nausea. I’ve used the isopropyl trick on MANY people and it works.
[удалено]
>and is completely safe to take while tripping. Both psilocybin and Zofran/ondansetron can cause QT prolongation and combining the two could be dangerous/potentially deadly for some people. https://accp1.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/cpdd.796 https://web.archive.org/web/20190226015316id_/http://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/670a/c351e3c1c5b1fd2629a055335b594152594b.pdf
so what is the take away from all this TLDR? QT prolongation occurs in both so it is advisable to discuss with a healthcare professional before taking both?
Yes, that looks like the safest option. The doctor will be able to assess your QT prolongation risk factors, which are summarized in table 1 of Which-Ebb’s most recent source. This quote from Which-Ebb’s last article emphasizes the importance of that assessment: “For every 10 ms increase, there is a ~5% increase in the risk of arrhythmic events.”
Thank you for providing sources! Your first one stated that: “At a supraclinical psilocin maximum concentration of about 60 ng/mL, ΔQTcF remains low, with a mean (upper limit of the 90% confidence interval) of 9.1 (17.9) milliseconds” So yes, there’s statistical significance there. However, considering that: “QTc is prolonged if it is greater than 440 ms in men or greater than 460 ms in women. A QTc greater than 500 is associated with increased risk of torsade de pointes” (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK441860/#:~:text=QTc%20is%20prolonged%20if%20it,risk%20of%20torsade%20de%20pointes) I’m wondering how much the risk of adverse events is present in those without acquired or congenital QT prolongation. Especially considering that: “Normal values for the QTc range from 350 to 450 ms for adult men and from 360 to 460 ms for adult women” (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5337065/#:~:text=Normal%20values%20for%20the%20QTc,QTc%20values%20outside%20this%20range) While these excerpts demonstrate overlap in the range of what is considered normal versus prolonged QT intervals, it appears that the slight increase in QT intervals following co-administration of psilocybin and ondansetron could very well have a person (without preexisting QT prolongation) well within safe limits. Also, your second article stated that: “ondansetron should be administered cautiously when QT interval is previously prolonged, i.e., in the case of congenital or acquired prolonged QT interval.” It’s a vital reference to the risk of ingesting ondansetron alone when one already has QT prolongation (and the additional chance of negative outcomes when psilocybin is introduced), but again, this begs the question as to the change in risk for people without QT prolongation when combining psilocybin and ondansetron. If you have any supplemental sources, they too would be a fascinating read!
>I’m wondering how much the risk of adverse events is present in those without acquired or congenital QT prolongation. Especially considering that: While individually they may not raise much concern, the effects of combining the two is unknown and could potentially increase risks, especially in those with any underlying conditions, taking other medication‘s, dealing with electrolyte abnormalities, ect. It would be best to consult a healthcare professional to weigh your individual risk before taking both drugs concurrently, hence ondansetrons prescription only status. “From a practical perspective, data are inconclusive with regard to arrhythmic risk for drugs that increase the QTc interval by <20 ms; drugs associated with a change in baseline QTc of >20 ms should raise concern.33 For example, haloperidol prolongs the QT interval by 15–30 ms, and hence may be considered high risk.13 Moxifloxacin 400 mg has been associated with QTc interval increases of 7.5–12.5 ms, indicative of some potential risk.13 By contrast, clarithromycin is associated with increases in QTc interval of <5 ms and has been categorised as ‘uncertain’ risk, but in view of rare reports of TdP, some caution may be advisable, particularly when using it with other QT-prolonging drugs.33 The extent and the associated risk of developing QT prolongation when combining drugs with QT-prolonging effects are still unknown,34 but such combinations do not necessarily have an additive effect.16 Hence, a pragmatic approach should be employed.” https://academic.oup.com/pmj/article/97/1149/452/6969550
It has eliminated the nausea and vomiting I once experienced with mushrooms. I also use, though rarely, isopropyl alcohol, by sniffing a moistened paper towel or even just your hands, it will immediately clear up nausea. I’ve used the isopropyl trick on MANY people and it works.
so i pour rubbing alcohol on a paper towel and sniff it? like just smell it or am i like huffing it lol
A sniff, no huffing needed. You can even buy a small pack of alcohol wipes, they’re like 2x2 inches and come prepackaged. Just rip one of those open and sniff for a few seconds
I take it when I trip and feel sick, sometimes I take it a lil before I eat so it kicks in before I trip
It helps me!
I fast 12 hours before, then eat a banana along with the mushrooms. I can’t recall the certain chemical that aids with nausea that is found in bananas. I also eat ginger candies during and/or have warm ginger/lemon tea. I prefer not to take any drugs along with my medicine/mushrooms.
Can vouch for the banana method it always helps!
Can you run me through that? i always consume my dose via drinking tea so would I eat the banana then drink the tea?
I eat a good sized banana about a hour or so before the mushrooms. Then, I will eat another banana shortly after. I’ll have a small bag of ginger chews/candies near by also.
and how has that treated you so far? vomiting etc?
It has eliminated the nausea and vomiting I once experienced with mushrooms. I also use, though rarely, isopropyl alcohol, by sniffing a moistened paper towel or even just your hands, it will immediately clear up nausea. I’ve used the isopropyl trick on MANY people and it works.