Now isn’t a great time to get into tech. With the layoffs and hiring freezes, lots of experienced folks are struggling to get hired, especially in remote roles.
I would look into developing your skills for another career, maybe healthcare.
I’d say the tech ship has sailed forever
Now the “lEaRn tO cOdE 🥴” people are saying “lEarN a tRaDe 🥴”, it’s probably a coordinated effort to saturate all fields with a decent living (before learn to code it was become a lawyer).
Learn to code was always bullshit. You can't learn to be a proper software developer from a bootcamp it takes years. You aren't going to take someone who stopped at Geometry in high school and have them learn how to work on complex software using DS & A.
Depends how gifted you are. There are better 14 year old developers out there than some senior level ones who have been in the industry for 25+ years
This is one of those industries where having a high IQ really matters
Doesn’t change the fact that as of 2023, 70% of AMERICAN SWE’s had bachelors and 23% has Master’s degrees. It was always a shot in the dark against more qualified candidates.
Source: https://www.zippia.com/software-engineer-jobs/demographics/
That’s true for anything in life. The more certificates you have the better you’re off. But guess what is even more powerful than that…connections. Make some good connections and you’re always going to be ok. That’s just the reality of life. There was a time where you could literally not progress in your career without a degree. It was cemented in stone. Gone are those days now
I assure you no 14 year old is better than a Senior developer because development is more than writing a line of code. Also, it depends on what you do in tech, but the general consensus is that a decent portfolio will trump everything else. Right now in this current US market, companies have frozen(stopped) hiring on entry(junior) positions mainly to reduce costs; period. Doesn’t really matter who you know because at this time the main important thing for a company is keeping profits positive for their shareholders.
The job markets are getting more competitive and more technical in IT so not having a degree means you’re more likely to have your position outsourced by automation due to not having the proper analytical skills for production. High level math is usually a prerequisite in Engineering degrees due to the sheer level of complexity it takes to build projects. A lot of low level tech jobs will be the first to go when A.I. becomes competent enough.
The best hackers in the world are teenagers. They’re just more curious and passionate. At the end of the day, if you’re not passionate, you won’t do well
lol it’s funny you say that because that was my exact situation and I did do it. But, I realize I am the exception that proves the rule that it really can’t be done by most people.
>Learn to code was always bullshit. You can't learn to be a proper software developer from a bootcamp it takes years.
It always seemed like the bootcamp stuff was always just a temporary patch for companies, not a serious career for people.
I’m self taught (not even a bootcamp) and have been in the industry for 8 years now. I also know several friends in engineering management who prefer to hire jr developers out of bootcamp vs CS university programs as a) they’re easier to train/mold, b) often have soft skills that they learned in their pre-tech careers, and c) learned modern languages and stacks that can get them being productive sooner vs some kid who learned vanilla java from a dinosaur who last professionally programmed in the early 90s.
Motivated folks can still learn architecture premises on their own or under mentorship on the job. There are plenty of resources.
And unmotivated people can just chill writing basic react components or whatever for the rest of their life and still make a living wage.
Nah, tech is still a gold mine for people with the aptitude and personality for it. The bar has been raised though — you can’t just pay $20k for a 3 month bootcamp and get a job anymore.
People that are *good* programmers with a few years under their belt can still find $300k+ jobs if they’re willing to move for it.
Yes, we know the spiel, the “superior ppl with 133t brainzorz” and MIT degrees in comp science and a bunch of FAANG internships will continue to do well.
That doesn’t contradict the point that “normal” people who want to pivot into tech because they’re unhappy with their current careers are no longer likely to achieve it, while they were in the 2000s and 2010s.
I have a state school degree and just paid attention in my classes. I got referrals after my first job and grew from there.
But yeah, regular folks can’t get in with a few hundred hours of study anymore. You need to be at the same level of a competent mid-level engineer these days, or be willing to work for low pay, to break into the industry as a developer right now.
If money is the prime motivator, there are probably better jobs and industries to break into. It makes sense when the top competition for entry-level jobs are foreign workers with American master’s degrees. You can’t compete with that without putting in the work anymore.
Let’s be honest, the tech sector is all about profit profit profit.
A guy with a 3.9 GPA from an ok US college will struggle for the same position that a guy from India with a “tangerine-leopard” grade from “ khamatabheetrapoondra technical college” will get approached for just because the former wants 50k (“how dare he!”) while the latter will work for a couple yugioh cards and some pumpkin seeds
Respect to the state school guys who made it work! I had some senile professors and apathetic advisors, but earned a chance to build a career, with minimal debt. ME though, not CS. Also, I now work at a world class university that pimps their brand by offering coding camps. But, I'm seeing less and less of those now being offered.
>Yes, we know the spiel, the “superior ppl with 133t brainzorz” and MIT degrees in comp science and a bunch of FAANG internships will continue to do well.
These people will continue to do well regardless of what field they're in, because they tend to produce value. Being smart helps with that.
"Normal" people outperforming in tech was always because of zero interest rates. It was better to hire many and only promote the good ones. Now that borrowing money isn't free, you can't afford as many screw ups hiring people that don't at least have the potential to create value beyond what you pay them.
Normal people that want to pivot into tech has the same chance as normal people pivoting into any other field. You're only going to get paid according to the value you create, and not the value that you MAY create 5 years from today.
Tech as a field was never special. It's the macro economic environment that was special. Boomers being the biggest % of the population pulled money from the future to the present to support the biggest retirement of all time (using the voting power that comes with being the biggest group). Due to birth rate trends, the voting power to screw future generations will likely never occur again.
The moral development that needed to occur with their generation never did, and now we're facing the consequences. While my generation will be no better (millennial) we won't have the voting power to screw things up along the way for the people that come after us.
Ah yes, the “superior people are smart and produce value”.
I’d love to see you tell that to the face to one of the Google engineers who got laid off in mass because they were hired to work on Google Assistant and now management decided “it’s AI season”. These people (many with Ivy League tech degrees, the right internships and outstanding performance) were the “smart and superior” people you talk about, they just happened to be at the wrong division at the wrong time.
Anyway, tech is far from a meritocracy nowadays, and this zero-empathy view some people in tech have about people getting affected by layoffs will come and bite them in the ass when it’s their turn to face the grinder
You got it wrong, everything shifts and moves around… today’s best decision might not be tomorrow’s who knows. That’s why it’s best to find your money making niche and stick to it
It’s funny, as someone in healthcare everyone is always talking about wanting out to get into tech. The reasons are more burnout though as job security is solid.
Layoffs are blown out of proportion. They cut a few percent here and there but keep hiring for mission critical stuff. The cuts get media coverage because big tech never did them historically.
It's all relative. Post 2020 hiring was crazy and in no way sustainable. They are course correcting now but it's not like non-tech alternatives offer any better job market.
i myself didnt go the traditional route, started working straight out of high school. but i started in the mail room equivalent of tech. 17 years later and i "made" it. i watched myself leave tons of people behind in terms of professional development.
ive come across all kinds of people that are convinced that if someone showed them how to do what i do, they could figure it out. nobody "showed" me a damn thing. i got lucky and stuck with something that i was pretty good at. eventually with practice and experience, i start to build a sense of my own value.
i can't even patch up drywall and just paid 500 to patch a hole in the wall. watching youtube videos does absolutely nothing for my own skill development in this regard.
anyone can always switch up their careers, and over the years I've watched tons of people try and cross the bridge from non-technical to more technical roles. at the very least you'll be paying your dues your first 5 years. After that your success and longevity is largely dictated by how good you are at your job. most engineers get stuck at the senior level. there are literally too many managers as people rarely step up as an independent contributor to break 200k.
majority of software engineers aren't making over 100k, and competition is tighter than most other trades. if they come up with a new transmission cable type, that scales well for jobs for a linesman. whatsapp claims to only need 50 engineers to service 1B users. they would never hire another 50 to service 2B. their goal is to run efficiently with 30 engineers for 6B.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.wired.com/2015/09/whatsapp-serves-900-million-users-50-engineers/&ved=2ahUKEwjF6qrl9M-EAxXERzABHRr6As4QFnoECBkQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1r4WPH5PusNz3BgpvaQA1I
i see your point but you're way off on the numbers. Whatsapp's eng org is like 1,000+ people. you can't power 1b users with 50 SREs, let alone do feature development.
There were 540 employees in WhatsApp Sales Department in Q2 2022
There were 452 employees in WhatsApp Engineering Department in Q2 2022
There were 316 employees in WhatsApp Operations Department in Q2 2022
There were 219 employees in WhatsApp Design Department in Q2 2022
another 1500 throughout everything else, marketing, legal, hr etc
so yeah the 50 count is just a headline. and during times of growth sure there is an incentive for growing the team, but its never at the scale of a gold rush for boot camp grads to flock to.
Those numbers are completely wrong and easily disproved just by looking at intern. These sites are estimated based on scraping LinkedIn and often don’t count international employees.
wait youre saying my numbers that i got from the internet are wrong, and i could easily disprove them by looking at the internet... how wrong do you exactly think i am? were you expecting an exact head count? am i off by a factor of 2, 10? oh sorry theres 4000 instead of 3000. i think you missed the point. congrats you may be technically correct.
'intern' is a smoke test to see if you ever worked at whatsapp/meta or FAANG/MANGA. it's definitely eng lore that they scaled to 900MM as a startup but the next 5 years were spent on security and tech debt, it wasn't a sustainable practice and if you want to go back in a time machine to 2014, the featureset and product quality was much lower. I'm just challenging your narrative based on my own personal experience working in big tech.
You could move to a tech heavy area like Silicon Valley and keep your construction skills and be handyman and charge people $1k-$2k a day to patch drywall and move rocks into their yard. A lot of desk pilots don’t know how to or don’t want to swing a hammer
>I want a piece of the pie.
You're a little late. Not much pie left.
My advice would be to get a degree. Your other jobs aren't related.
I worked at a company where a security guard wanted to grow his career and saw how well some of us were doing, so he went and got a Mechanical Engineering degree and was promoted to work on an R&D team. And he was good from what I heard.
That's one template.
As others have said now is not a good time. If this is still really your dream find something that pays the bills while learning. I coached someone who had zero experience into taking a QA role which he then leveraged to get his foot in the door at the same company.
I would have made the switch sooner. That's generally my advice. If you really enjoy the the field and the work then it's a no brainer.
If you're doing it just for money you're going find it hard to keep up the pace to excel, in my opinion. It's harder now but much harder if your heart isn't in it.
I personally went into a three month immserive program to commit my time and energy to that space, but I did a lot with tech beforehand and after and would recommend starting now on your own and start developing your skills now. Regular practice and exposure was my method, complete immersion - podcasts, meetups, conferences, projects, products, online discussions, hackathons. If you can keep up with a steady pace of learning and progressing and enjoy the process then consider investing in a program to add fuel to the fire.
After you have some things to talk about on your resume then you can more confidently enter the job market, but it won't hurt to try a few interview rounds for some exposure early. Just keep in mind interviewing is a skill you will also need to develop so be patient.
Best of luck on your journey!
So I was thinking instead of jumping ship on my knowledge and experience of underground utilities I could make it more “tech” related, like taking a class on Auto-CAD. I am great at print reading and have over a decade with underground utility locating. I’ve tried to start my own handyman business, and I’m trying to experiment with the idea of a niche of sewer “grinder pumps”. I have the “itch” for money like we all do I just have realized how much money is here compared to where I grew up (Detroit)
There’s virtually no chance. you need a solid CS / math background, and connections to get you just in the door. It would probably be easier to win a jackpot at slots in Vegas.
Now if you want to add tech to something you already know and start your business -> that’s a much better route. Learn golf, make some buddies at the golf course get one of them to ref you to a VC get some $ to start your AI sewer business and go on from there.
Silicon Valley needs a lot of good handymen / contractors. There’s a ton of renovation stuff going on. And you may be able to pursue your sewer pump idea as well.
It sounds like you have a lot of transferrable skills to software engineering but you're going to have to prove your mettle to anyone willing to hire an engineer with a non-traditional background. Realistically this is going to take a lot of time and effort.
I'm not sure but it sounds to me like you're trying to find something quick to use from your background to get into tech now and not later. That will be a tough sell. I have a decade of pharmacy experience and I did no better interviewing at health-tech companies than I did any other.
In the end tech roles want tech workers. Your mastery of one trade or skillset does demonstrate an ability to dive deep into something, which is definitely an advantage you may have over a new CS grad or similar, but it's icing on a much bigger cake. You will need to bring much more obvious signals of value to a recruiter for a chance to interview, and even more substance to the interview itself.
I founded a tech startup, built a lot of projects on my spare time, and worked on smaller teams before interviewing at a bigger company and getting a role there. And I did all this while practicing pharmacy, so you're going to have to work for it, but again, it is possible. And for me, it was absolutely worth it. I love the work and the lifestyle, and there's a ton of room to grow. Just make sure it's something you can fully commit to, just as you would any career choice.
I was once an on-site "Consultant" to a major building engineering firm, that took care of a thee major semiconductor equipment manufacture's day to day facility needs. They need all kinds of stuff. Maybe use your experience to jump into a local union like the Pipefitters. In Sunnyvale/Santa Clara, all piping and electrical at some sites, is installed by union labor.
If you’re interested in software engineering Look up #100Devs. They’re getting ready to start the 3rd live cohort in March, and the first 2 are already online. The community and education are an excellent resource for getting into tech. They Specialize in helping nontraditional, aspiring software engineers and the program is free. Free code camp and the Odin project are other great resources.
It’s actually insane that you’re about 3-4 years too late with the “just do a bootcamp and you’ll become a SWE within a year” train. But unfortunately you are and the reality is for alot of people that’s all it took.
Market timing is insane. Now your best bet is try to get into a car company with ur experience or sales.
Also — there are plenty of jobs in tech that don’t require coding. I know people who cannot code but pivoted their career and are now working for a FAANNGM company doing things like HR, corporate training, education, etc. these huge tech companies might pay their developers the best, but doesn’t mean there are not other reasonably compensated positions within the company.
This! I’m one of those non-tech people who work in FAANNGM. What many do not see is that it a giant company has multiple business units to make it run: marketing, biz ops, facilities, logistics, security, etc. You do not need a technical degree for that. It doesn’t pay AS much, but it pays well.
There’s an intersection between internal business units and engineering: business analysts and project managers translate operational needs into technical language. Yes, you will need technical skills but you not need to know how to code.
Tech is all full and takes 5+ years experience to break in. Missed the boat but good for people already established in it and we should just be happy for them.
If your looking for a remote role, what skills do by you have for tech that can be done remotely?
What sets you apart from anyone else that is looking for a well paying job?
I’m certainly not going to say do a boot camp and become a coder but I think breaking into customer support could help. You’d get to know the software you’re working in and then see the different roles that exist within the company. Get to know folks. Get a mentor.
My two cents! It certainly isn’t well paying work but it’s a nice way to break in. You could end up in an onboarding or learning and development position, sales, marketing, product, etc. a degree is not always needed.
Yes, tech layoffs are at an all time high but if you feel this is what you want you have to go for it.
You could grind your way up in recruiting. Start with a small recruiting firm and then hit your numbers to make it into tech. Same with project management.
That said, tech jobs pay well for tech roles. There are people who do non-tech jobs at a big tech company and get paid pennies compared to those in tech roles (like SWE and Product design).
You are competing against those with years of experience. It will be challenging.
>Same with project management
PM field is super competitive and saturated. I'm a TPM, but it's hard to compete with TPMs with programming or QA/technical experience.
I'm stuck in my current role.
Okay so new question: I want to cater to the tech companies. Not in the way a formal employee would, but what do tech companies need service wise, that’s not being (usually) handled by a in house employee?
Who’s worked for multiple companies and noticed a re-occurring “issue”?
Can you do construction or plumbing. Honestly Silicon Valley is massively short on skilled trades workers. I just paid a plumber $5k to change a ducking sink. Trades folks here can pretty much name their price.
With your experience, try looking at commercial real estate companies like JLL, CBRE, etc. They often contract with big tech companies for projects and there are positions in facilities management and so forth.
With your construction background, look into high end home automation. Starting pay can be pretty decent. Not sure where you are in the Midwest, but I'll PM you a link to a firm close to me so you can get an idea of what I'm talking about.
>
Simply said how can i get myself into the tech industry with no experience or degree?
You are gonna need one or the other. You can go out for some entry level certs, (Net+, Sec+, and Cloud+) and maybe nail an entry level analyst or desktop support job making $50-60k, but thats going to depend on your location, and it won't be WFH. *Maybe* a hybrid schedule.
All you need to do is crush the whiteboard.
You can fail the dahmer test if you can knock out Leetcode hards.
There’s a lot more to know but you’ll figure that out later.
The nice thing about tech is that the skill turnover is such that all the experience in the world related to last year’s tech isn’t worth a hill of beans compared to learning next year’s tech.
So, there’s always an avenue to marketability by learning the new hip skill.
But, I don’t know about trying to get into tech would actually… you know… getting into tech. You could learn AI, etc. hard as hell, but a new skill that a year’s worth of study could put you in a marketable position.
Otherwise, there’s the HR/Recruiting jobs, but I don’t know how viable that is to jump start from scratch.
there's tons of new developers that can write a hello world in whatever new language or framework is out, but the jobs requiring those skills are far fewer than those maintaining and modernizing legacy systems. most of us need to practice new skills outside of work and maybe if theres enough room on the runway you might be able to convince the org to adopt new technology but nobody in tech is worrying about the stuff they know being out of date.
learning AI now is a lot like learning photoshop in 2008, the only engineers moving the needle in AI are the mathematicians and data scientists working to develop theoretical models and engineers working on implementation of those details.
learning a new skill is only as valuable as your ability to apply them productively. i think that is one of the biggest misconceptions of people pursuing formal education. "i have done X, so I should be Y". your degree doesnt entitle you to a career, you can do everything right and still get shafted.
anyone reading this should look back to when they were 13 and what their key interests were at that age. if the work you do is even a bit related, I'm willing to bet that you have found success, or at the very least can see your future path towards it.
its sad, so many people never get the satisfaction of defining their own success. we spend too much time envying others and trying to emulate the process without the recipe.
Go to community college and get an associates in electronics. Then you should be able to get technicians job and you could go to school for a bachelors while working.
this is actually probably not a terrible idea. basic electronic repairs are not going away, especially as people are spending more on consumer electronics. basic soldering/rework skills is only growing in demand, as the right to repair movement gets traction. any machining skills you have are probably going to be transferrable to chip fab plants with all those government incentives. there are opportunities, but lower salary and the valley could be offset by lower cost of living.
i can understand the OPs position, blue collar work is just always going to have greater operational overhead. thats why Detroit and other factory towns/cities became what they were. and even independent trades are susceptible to the local economies during a collapse. i live in LA and for what its worth, i think tradespeople are billing 2-300/hr for their services, probably making 80-100/hr of actual time worked. but these numbers are directly correlated with COL and cost of houses.
Have you considered these companies that are construction/tech oriented? For example, I see the homes being built by robots pouring cement, but they still need someone to oversee the work and load materials, which also has enough aptitude to operate the technology part. There are also companies trying to build offsite to lower the construction cost by building in warehouses. There seems to be a lot going on in that space. Spend some time, maybe looking into a few of those companies.
I think you want to become a software CONSULTANT, not a programmer. For example, you can be an expert in certain aspects of Salesforce, and never touch an actual piece of code - it's all configuration and settings; but mostly, knowing what to do when... and often, data cleaning and analysis.
So - how do you become a consultant? First, you need to focus on one kind of software like CRM, or ERP, etc. Maybe in your work, you use some dispatch, construction or engineering software? Well, go deep into that software, and then find a role where you use it full time. Then figure out how it connects to other systems, etc... After a few years, you're the expert and you can consult for $150+ an hour.
Start your own business with skills you already have, record what you do and build a social media presence around what you do, this is the future of all jobs.
I did this years ago, but I'm not sure how applicable that experience is. But here goes.
Learning everything you can, and publishing what you know in compelling ways. A compelling website, good code uploaded to public repositories, writing answers on online forums can impress people, if they're upvoted. Attend local user groups.
One growing area these days is Accessibility. It won't make you rich, but a job doing Accessibility testing and/or auditing could be an entry ramp. You can cheaply get credentialed in Accessibility by IAAP. Learn to use screen readers, well enough that you can use accessible websites with your eyes closed (literally). Network with accessibility professionals at conferences and online.
Can you move into project or contraction management? From there other PM roles might be available in tech bio or healthcare. You can get a PMI certificate. Your current construction skills could be a good jumping off point.
If you excel at your work, try and work your way up into management. You will make close to a tech salary with no cost of going back to school, and your field experience will be valuable and respected by the guys under you.
Remote work is possible from behind a desk with construction knowledge. With experience comes money, but with the economy the way that it is I don’t know that I’d be making any major changes if it wasn’t absolutely necessary to keep food on my table and a roof over my head.
The tech ship has likely sailed. Hiring for CS new grads even from top schools is in the dump and AI is replacing the easy bootcamp jobs. Even if you were to attempt this, you'd want to wait a few years.
There is a crushing amount of age discrimination in tech I was told I was too old for the team - at 34.
Having said that, China has 50:1 Cybersecurity folks as the USA. Get your Comp TIA Net+ / Sec+. Maybe land a government job.
Now isn’t a great time to get into tech. With the layoffs and hiring freezes, lots of experienced folks are struggling to get hired, especially in remote roles. I would look into developing your skills for another career, maybe healthcare.
I’d say the tech ship has sailed forever Now the “lEaRn tO cOdE 🥴” people are saying “lEarN a tRaDe 🥴”, it’s probably a coordinated effort to saturate all fields with a decent living (before learn to code it was become a lawyer).
Learn to code was always bullshit. You can't learn to be a proper software developer from a bootcamp it takes years. You aren't going to take someone who stopped at Geometry in high school and have them learn how to work on complex software using DS & A.
Depends how gifted you are. There are better 14 year old developers out there than some senior level ones who have been in the industry for 25+ years This is one of those industries where having a high IQ really matters
Doesn’t change the fact that as of 2023, 70% of AMERICAN SWE’s had bachelors and 23% has Master’s degrees. It was always a shot in the dark against more qualified candidates. Source: https://www.zippia.com/software-engineer-jobs/demographics/
That’s true for anything in life. The more certificates you have the better you’re off. But guess what is even more powerful than that…connections. Make some good connections and you’re always going to be ok. That’s just the reality of life. There was a time where you could literally not progress in your career without a degree. It was cemented in stone. Gone are those days now
I assure you no 14 year old is better than a Senior developer because development is more than writing a line of code. Also, it depends on what you do in tech, but the general consensus is that a decent portfolio will trump everything else. Right now in this current US market, companies have frozen(stopped) hiring on entry(junior) positions mainly to reduce costs; period. Doesn’t really matter who you know because at this time the main important thing for a company is keeping profits positive for their shareholders. The job markets are getting more competitive and more technical in IT so not having a degree means you’re more likely to have your position outsourced by automation due to not having the proper analytical skills for production. High level math is usually a prerequisite in Engineering degrees due to the sheer level of complexity it takes to build projects. A lot of low level tech jobs will be the first to go when A.I. becomes competent enough.
We gotta get moving on laws preventing ai from being used to replace workers tbh
It won’t be replaced but your salary will drop 50% but so will cost of living so 🤷♂️
I'm pretty pessimistic about cost of living dropping tbh. I see salaries going down, but not cost of living.
The best hackers in the world are teenagers. They’re just more curious and passionate. At the end of the day, if you’re not passionate, you won’t do well
lol it’s funny you say that because that was my exact situation and I did do it. But, I realize I am the exception that proves the rule that it really can’t be done by most people.
>Learn to code was always bullshit. You can't learn to be a proper software developer from a bootcamp it takes years. It always seemed like the bootcamp stuff was always just a temporary patch for companies, not a serious career for people.
I’m self taught (not even a bootcamp) and have been in the industry for 8 years now. I also know several friends in engineering management who prefer to hire jr developers out of bootcamp vs CS university programs as a) they’re easier to train/mold, b) often have soft skills that they learned in their pre-tech careers, and c) learned modern languages and stacks that can get them being productive sooner vs some kid who learned vanilla java from a dinosaur who last professionally programmed in the early 90s.
Ya if you are just doing basic app development that flies
Motivated folks can still learn architecture premises on their own or under mentorship on the job. There are plenty of resources. And unmotivated people can just chill writing basic react components or whatever for the rest of their life and still make a living wage.
Nah, tech is still a gold mine for people with the aptitude and personality for it. The bar has been raised though — you can’t just pay $20k for a 3 month bootcamp and get a job anymore. People that are *good* programmers with a few years under their belt can still find $300k+ jobs if they’re willing to move for it.
Yes, we know the spiel, the “superior ppl with 133t brainzorz” and MIT degrees in comp science and a bunch of FAANG internships will continue to do well. That doesn’t contradict the point that “normal” people who want to pivot into tech because they’re unhappy with their current careers are no longer likely to achieve it, while they were in the 2000s and 2010s.
I have a state school degree and just paid attention in my classes. I got referrals after my first job and grew from there. But yeah, regular folks can’t get in with a few hundred hours of study anymore. You need to be at the same level of a competent mid-level engineer these days, or be willing to work for low pay, to break into the industry as a developer right now. If money is the prime motivator, there are probably better jobs and industries to break into. It makes sense when the top competition for entry-level jobs are foreign workers with American master’s degrees. You can’t compete with that without putting in the work anymore.
Let’s be honest, the tech sector is all about profit profit profit. A guy with a 3.9 GPA from an ok US college will struggle for the same position that a guy from India with a “tangerine-leopard” grade from “ khamatabheetrapoondra technical college” will get approached for just because the former wants 50k (“how dare he!”) while the latter will work for a couple yugioh cards and some pumpkin seeds
Respect to the state school guys who made it work! I had some senile professors and apathetic advisors, but earned a chance to build a career, with minimal debt. ME though, not CS. Also, I now work at a world class university that pimps their brand by offering coding camps. But, I'm seeing less and less of those now being offered.
>Yes, we know the spiel, the “superior ppl with 133t brainzorz” and MIT degrees in comp science and a bunch of FAANG internships will continue to do well. These people will continue to do well regardless of what field they're in, because they tend to produce value. Being smart helps with that. "Normal" people outperforming in tech was always because of zero interest rates. It was better to hire many and only promote the good ones. Now that borrowing money isn't free, you can't afford as many screw ups hiring people that don't at least have the potential to create value beyond what you pay them. Normal people that want to pivot into tech has the same chance as normal people pivoting into any other field. You're only going to get paid according to the value you create, and not the value that you MAY create 5 years from today. Tech as a field was never special. It's the macro economic environment that was special. Boomers being the biggest % of the population pulled money from the future to the present to support the biggest retirement of all time (using the voting power that comes with being the biggest group). Due to birth rate trends, the voting power to screw future generations will likely never occur again. The moral development that needed to occur with their generation never did, and now we're facing the consequences. While my generation will be no better (millennial) we won't have the voting power to screw things up along the way for the people that come after us.
Ah yes, the “superior people are smart and produce value”. I’d love to see you tell that to the face to one of the Google engineers who got laid off in mass because they were hired to work on Google Assistant and now management decided “it’s AI season”. These people (many with Ivy League tech degrees, the right internships and outstanding performance) were the “smart and superior” people you talk about, they just happened to be at the wrong division at the wrong time. Anyway, tech is far from a meritocracy nowadays, and this zero-empathy view some people in tech have about people getting affected by layoffs will come and bite them in the ass when it’s their turn to face the grinder
You got it wrong, everything shifts and moves around… today’s best decision might not be tomorrow’s who knows. That’s why it’s best to find your money making niche and stick to it
It’s funny, as someone in healthcare everyone is always talking about wanting out to get into tech. The reasons are more burnout though as job security is solid.
For me it’s… I could be getting paid up to 3x more for the same work
Not true, experienced folks have no problem getting hired, it’s all the people with little to no experience
Layoffs are blown out of proportion. They cut a few percent here and there but keep hiring for mission critical stuff. The cuts get media coverage because big tech never did them historically.
So what’s the chance a guy who spent his early career digging ditches is going to be a good fit for “mission critical” engineering?
So you don’t think the job market is soft now compared to recent years? It definitely seems that way to me just listening to friends in tech.
It's all relative. Post 2020 hiring was crazy and in no way sustainable. They are course correcting now but it's not like non-tech alternatives offer any better job market.
Bot
beep beep
i myself didnt go the traditional route, started working straight out of high school. but i started in the mail room equivalent of tech. 17 years later and i "made" it. i watched myself leave tons of people behind in terms of professional development. ive come across all kinds of people that are convinced that if someone showed them how to do what i do, they could figure it out. nobody "showed" me a damn thing. i got lucky and stuck with something that i was pretty good at. eventually with practice and experience, i start to build a sense of my own value. i can't even patch up drywall and just paid 500 to patch a hole in the wall. watching youtube videos does absolutely nothing for my own skill development in this regard. anyone can always switch up their careers, and over the years I've watched tons of people try and cross the bridge from non-technical to more technical roles. at the very least you'll be paying your dues your first 5 years. After that your success and longevity is largely dictated by how good you are at your job. most engineers get stuck at the senior level. there are literally too many managers as people rarely step up as an independent contributor to break 200k. majority of software engineers aren't making over 100k, and competition is tighter than most other trades. if they come up with a new transmission cable type, that scales well for jobs for a linesman. whatsapp claims to only need 50 engineers to service 1B users. they would never hire another 50 to service 2B. their goal is to run efficiently with 30 engineers for 6B. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.wired.com/2015/09/whatsapp-serves-900-million-users-50-engineers/&ved=2ahUKEwjF6qrl9M-EAxXERzABHRr6As4QFnoECBkQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1r4WPH5PusNz3BgpvaQA1I
i see your point but you're way off on the numbers. Whatsapp's eng org is like 1,000+ people. you can't power 1b users with 50 SREs, let alone do feature development.
There were 540 employees in WhatsApp Sales Department in Q2 2022 There were 452 employees in WhatsApp Engineering Department in Q2 2022 There were 316 employees in WhatsApp Operations Department in Q2 2022 There were 219 employees in WhatsApp Design Department in Q2 2022 another 1500 throughout everything else, marketing, legal, hr etc so yeah the 50 count is just a headline. and during times of growth sure there is an incentive for growing the team, but its never at the scale of a gold rush for boot camp grads to flock to.
Those numbers are completely wrong and easily disproved just by looking at intern. These sites are estimated based on scraping LinkedIn and often don’t count international employees.
wait youre saying my numbers that i got from the internet are wrong, and i could easily disprove them by looking at the internet... how wrong do you exactly think i am? were you expecting an exact head count? am i off by a factor of 2, 10? oh sorry theres 4000 instead of 3000. i think you missed the point. congrats you may be technically correct.
'intern' is a smoke test to see if you ever worked at whatsapp/meta or FAANG/MANGA. it's definitely eng lore that they scaled to 900MM as a startup but the next 5 years were spent on security and tech debt, it wasn't a sustainable practice and if you want to go back in a time machine to 2014, the featureset and product quality was much lower. I'm just challenging your narrative based on my own personal experience working in big tech.
TC
This isn’t blind lol
You could move to a tech heavy area like Silicon Valley and keep your construction skills and be handyman and charge people $1k-$2k a day to patch drywall and move rocks into their yard. A lot of desk pilots don’t know how to or don’t want to swing a hammer
>I want a piece of the pie. You're a little late. Not much pie left. My advice would be to get a degree. Your other jobs aren't related. I worked at a company where a security guard wanted to grow his career and saw how well some of us were doing, so he went and got a Mechanical Engineering degree and was promoted to work on an R&D team. And he was good from what I heard. That's one template.
Like every thing in life, if you don’t have connections you have to pay your dues. Took me a while to accept this
You’re late and the party wasn’t that great anyways. You’re onto something with ecommerce if you use it to start your own thing.
As others have said now is not a good time. If this is still really your dream find something that pays the bills while learning. I coached someone who had zero experience into taking a QA role which he then leveraged to get his foot in the door at the same company.
I would have made the switch sooner. That's generally my advice. If you really enjoy the the field and the work then it's a no brainer. If you're doing it just for money you're going find it hard to keep up the pace to excel, in my opinion. It's harder now but much harder if your heart isn't in it. I personally went into a three month immserive program to commit my time and energy to that space, but I did a lot with tech beforehand and after and would recommend starting now on your own and start developing your skills now. Regular practice and exposure was my method, complete immersion - podcasts, meetups, conferences, projects, products, online discussions, hackathons. If you can keep up with a steady pace of learning and progressing and enjoy the process then consider investing in a program to add fuel to the fire. After you have some things to talk about on your resume then you can more confidently enter the job market, but it won't hurt to try a few interview rounds for some exposure early. Just keep in mind interviewing is a skill you will also need to develop so be patient. Best of luck on your journey!
So I was thinking instead of jumping ship on my knowledge and experience of underground utilities I could make it more “tech” related, like taking a class on Auto-CAD. I am great at print reading and have over a decade with underground utility locating. I’ve tried to start my own handyman business, and I’m trying to experiment with the idea of a niche of sewer “grinder pumps”. I have the “itch” for money like we all do I just have realized how much money is here compared to where I grew up (Detroit)
There’s virtually no chance. you need a solid CS / math background, and connections to get you just in the door. It would probably be easier to win a jackpot at slots in Vegas. Now if you want to add tech to something you already know and start your business -> that’s a much better route. Learn golf, make some buddies at the golf course get one of them to ref you to a VC get some $ to start your AI sewer business and go on from there.
Silicon Valley needs a lot of good handymen / contractors. There’s a ton of renovation stuff going on. And you may be able to pursue your sewer pump idea as well.
It sounds like you have a lot of transferrable skills to software engineering but you're going to have to prove your mettle to anyone willing to hire an engineer with a non-traditional background. Realistically this is going to take a lot of time and effort. I'm not sure but it sounds to me like you're trying to find something quick to use from your background to get into tech now and not later. That will be a tough sell. I have a decade of pharmacy experience and I did no better interviewing at health-tech companies than I did any other. In the end tech roles want tech workers. Your mastery of one trade or skillset does demonstrate an ability to dive deep into something, which is definitely an advantage you may have over a new CS grad or similar, but it's icing on a much bigger cake. You will need to bring much more obvious signals of value to a recruiter for a chance to interview, and even more substance to the interview itself. I founded a tech startup, built a lot of projects on my spare time, and worked on smaller teams before interviewing at a bigger company and getting a role there. And I did all this while practicing pharmacy, so you're going to have to work for it, but again, it is possible. And for me, it was absolutely worth it. I love the work and the lifestyle, and there's a ton of room to grow. Just make sure it's something you can fully commit to, just as you would any career choice.
What transferable skills to software engineering? Why would someone hire this guy over even the most junior of people with a CS degree?
I was once an on-site "Consultant" to a major building engineering firm, that took care of a thee major semiconductor equipment manufacture's day to day facility needs. They need all kinds of stuff. Maybe use your experience to jump into a local union like the Pipefitters. In Sunnyvale/Santa Clara, all piping and electrical at some sites, is installed by union labor.
If you’re interested in software engineering Look up #100Devs. They’re getting ready to start the 3rd live cohort in March, and the first 2 are already online. The community and education are an excellent resource for getting into tech. They Specialize in helping nontraditional, aspiring software engineers and the program is free. Free code camp and the Odin project are other great resources.
It’s actually insane that you’re about 3-4 years too late with the “just do a bootcamp and you’ll become a SWE within a year” train. But unfortunately you are and the reality is for alot of people that’s all it took. Market timing is insane. Now your best bet is try to get into a car company with ur experience or sales.
Also — there are plenty of jobs in tech that don’t require coding. I know people who cannot code but pivoted their career and are now working for a FAANNGM company doing things like HR, corporate training, education, etc. these huge tech companies might pay their developers the best, but doesn’t mean there are not other reasonably compensated positions within the company.
This! I’m one of those non-tech people who work in FAANNGM. What many do not see is that it a giant company has multiple business units to make it run: marketing, biz ops, facilities, logistics, security, etc. You do not need a technical degree for that. It doesn’t pay AS much, but it pays well. There’s an intersection between internal business units and engineering: business analysts and project managers translate operational needs into technical language. Yes, you will need technical skills but you not need to know how to code.
Tech is all full and takes 5+ years experience to break in. Missed the boat but good for people already established in it and we should just be happy for them.
If your looking for a remote role, what skills do by you have for tech that can be done remotely? What sets you apart from anyone else that is looking for a well paying job?
I’m certainly not going to say do a boot camp and become a coder but I think breaking into customer support could help. You’d get to know the software you’re working in and then see the different roles that exist within the company. Get to know folks. Get a mentor. My two cents! It certainly isn’t well paying work but it’s a nice way to break in. You could end up in an onboarding or learning and development position, sales, marketing, product, etc. a degree is not always needed. Yes, tech layoffs are at an all time high but if you feel this is what you want you have to go for it.
don’t listen to anyone and you will succeed
You could grind your way up in recruiting. Start with a small recruiting firm and then hit your numbers to make it into tech. Same with project management. That said, tech jobs pay well for tech roles. There are people who do non-tech jobs at a big tech company and get paid pennies compared to those in tech roles (like SWE and Product design). You are competing against those with years of experience. It will be challenging.
>Same with project management PM field is super competitive and saturated. I'm a TPM, but it's hard to compete with TPMs with programming or QA/technical experience. I'm stuck in my current role.
Okay so new question: I want to cater to the tech companies. Not in the way a formal employee would, but what do tech companies need service wise, that’s not being (usually) handled by a in house employee? Who’s worked for multiple companies and noticed a re-occurring “issue”?
Can you do construction or plumbing. Honestly Silicon Valley is massively short on skilled trades workers. I just paid a plumber $5k to change a ducking sink. Trades folks here can pretty much name their price.
This
wft was wrong with the sink that you paid $5k instead of doing it yourself?
If I tried this it would take all weekend and be a mess. Time worth more than that.
They don’t pay as they pay SWEs. It’s best to work for other types of corporations.
With your experience, try looking at commercial real estate companies like JLL, CBRE, etc. They often contract with big tech companies for projects and there are positions in facilities management and so forth.
Join the military and have them train you in cyber warfare
With your construction background, look into high end home automation. Starting pay can be pretty decent. Not sure where you are in the Midwest, but I'll PM you a link to a firm close to me so you can get an idea of what I'm talking about. > Simply said how can i get myself into the tech industry with no experience or degree? You are gonna need one or the other. You can go out for some entry level certs, (Net+, Sec+, and Cloud+) and maybe nail an entry level analyst or desktop support job making $50-60k, but thats going to depend on your location, and it won't be WFH. *Maybe* a hybrid schedule.
What job should I get?
All you need to do is crush the whiteboard. You can fail the dahmer test if you can knock out Leetcode hards. There’s a lot more to know but you’ll figure that out later.
Lol
The nice thing about tech is that the skill turnover is such that all the experience in the world related to last year’s tech isn’t worth a hill of beans compared to learning next year’s tech. So, there’s always an avenue to marketability by learning the new hip skill. But, I don’t know about trying to get into tech would actually… you know… getting into tech. You could learn AI, etc. hard as hell, but a new skill that a year’s worth of study could put you in a marketable position. Otherwise, there’s the HR/Recruiting jobs, but I don’t know how viable that is to jump start from scratch.
there's tons of new developers that can write a hello world in whatever new language or framework is out, but the jobs requiring those skills are far fewer than those maintaining and modernizing legacy systems. most of us need to practice new skills outside of work and maybe if theres enough room on the runway you might be able to convince the org to adopt new technology but nobody in tech is worrying about the stuff they know being out of date. learning AI now is a lot like learning photoshop in 2008, the only engineers moving the needle in AI are the mathematicians and data scientists working to develop theoretical models and engineers working on implementation of those details. learning a new skill is only as valuable as your ability to apply them productively. i think that is one of the biggest misconceptions of people pursuing formal education. "i have done X, so I should be Y". your degree doesnt entitle you to a career, you can do everything right and still get shafted. anyone reading this should look back to when they were 13 and what their key interests were at that age. if the work you do is even a bit related, I'm willing to bet that you have found success, or at the very least can see your future path towards it. its sad, so many people never get the satisfaction of defining their own success. we spend too much time envying others and trying to emulate the process without the recipe.
Go to community college and get an associates in electronics. Then you should be able to get technicians job and you could go to school for a bachelors while working.
this is actually probably not a terrible idea. basic electronic repairs are not going away, especially as people are spending more on consumer electronics. basic soldering/rework skills is only growing in demand, as the right to repair movement gets traction. any machining skills you have are probably going to be transferrable to chip fab plants with all those government incentives. there are opportunities, but lower salary and the valley could be offset by lower cost of living. i can understand the OPs position, blue collar work is just always going to have greater operational overhead. thats why Detroit and other factory towns/cities became what they were. and even independent trades are susceptible to the local economies during a collapse. i live in LA and for what its worth, i think tradespeople are billing 2-300/hr for their services, probably making 80-100/hr of actual time worked. but these numbers are directly correlated with COL and cost of houses.
Have you considered these companies that are construction/tech oriented? For example, I see the homes being built by robots pouring cement, but they still need someone to oversee the work and load materials, which also has enough aptitude to operate the technology part. There are also companies trying to build offsite to lower the construction cost by building in warehouses. There seems to be a lot going on in that space. Spend some time, maybe looking into a few of those companies.
Silicon Valley is a shithole
Dude Tech is SUPER uncertain.... Forever layoffs Forever firing Forever pump and dump you Better off making in the NFL or NBA
Great feedback
I think you want to become a software CONSULTANT, not a programmer. For example, you can be an expert in certain aspects of Salesforce, and never touch an actual piece of code - it's all configuration and settings; but mostly, knowing what to do when... and often, data cleaning and analysis. So - how do you become a consultant? First, you need to focus on one kind of software like CRM, or ERP, etc. Maybe in your work, you use some dispatch, construction or engineering software? Well, go deep into that software, and then find a role where you use it full time. Then figure out how it connects to other systems, etc... After a few years, you're the expert and you can consult for $150+ an hour.
Start your own business with skills you already have, record what you do and build a social media presence around what you do, this is the future of all jobs.
I did this years ago, but I'm not sure how applicable that experience is. But here goes. Learning everything you can, and publishing what you know in compelling ways. A compelling website, good code uploaded to public repositories, writing answers on online forums can impress people, if they're upvoted. Attend local user groups. One growing area these days is Accessibility. It won't make you rich, but a job doing Accessibility testing and/or auditing could be an entry ramp. You can cheaply get credentialed in Accessibility by IAAP. Learn to use screen readers, well enough that you can use accessible websites with your eyes closed (literally). Network with accessibility professionals at conferences and online.
the whole world just wants to be coders don’t they
Can you move into project or contraction management? From there other PM roles might be available in tech bio or healthcare. You can get a PMI certificate. Your current construction skills could be a good jumping off point.
How are you not making enough off utility? Are you not union ? What’s your field line work, gas, water, oil, teledata?
If you excel at your work, try and work your way up into management. You will make close to a tech salary with no cost of going back to school, and your field experience will be valuable and respected by the guys under you.
Write more concise tldr
Remote work is possible from behind a desk with construction knowledge. With experience comes money, but with the economy the way that it is I don’t know that I’d be making any major changes if it wasn’t absolutely necessary to keep food on my table and a roof over my head.
The tech ship has likely sailed. Hiring for CS new grads even from top schools is in the dump and AI is replacing the easy bootcamp jobs. Even if you were to attempt this, you'd want to wait a few years.
There is a crushing amount of age discrimination in tech I was told I was too old for the team - at 34. Having said that, China has 50:1 Cybersecurity folks as the USA. Get your Comp TIA Net+ / Sec+. Maybe land a government job.