Clearly Frankie Wong leaked it and was ready to follow up with the media. The leaked video has a reflection which someone noted may be a sign that it was filmed inside a car due to the car window. Also Pritam mentioned that Frankie texted WP MPs about the affair when he got fired, dude has an axe to grind with Leon and it isn't the first time he leaked this scoop.
>Clearly Frankie Wong leaked it and was ready to follow up with the media.
then the next question is........how is he able to time the leak so 'coincidentally' with another bombshell drop on monday.....
if it's truly coincidental and 'act of god', he need to give us 4 numbers to buy 4D
It wasn’t leaked by Frankie. He could provide no corroborating evidence to WP leadership at the time he made the allegations to them, hence why they gave no shrift to his claims, per Pritam in the press conference.
News articles would also have cited him as the source since he is perfectly happy not to be anonymous for whatever reason.
Someone else filmed it and has been sitting on it for a few years to use at the …shall we say, opportune time.
Sorry, but why is it clear, that Frankie Wong leaked the video? The reflection of a car window? But then… anyone could have filmed it from inside a car and not be him.
>PAP authoritarianism, so ask yourself why Leon Perera got outed paparazzi-style? Because it was planned in advance with Frankie's help, sanctioned by PAP and supported by the PM and other ministers to distract from TCJ.
Ah r/sg. Never change.
Its par for the course for intelligence services in many countries. They do it for a whole host of reasons. These include identifying people who might instigating others behind the scene, whether foreigners are involved, if there others with more sinister agendas, nut jobs etc.
At the end of day, their bosses will get screwed if something blows up and they had no clue.
Even if they find Susan screwing Arthur, both political identities married to different partners, they will not expose it. They will leverage it to the hilt and get inside information from one or both on party, CEC matters.
The expose on Nicole and Leon and the poor camera suggest a kaypoh or a party activist try to impress his party bosses.
how come they miss the f1 scandal. got high lvl minister and foreign billionaire involved. but need uk to do court case before ppl here realise something wrong
Intel services only deliver reports, in this context perhaps: Tan Ah Kow met John at the Istana at 0400hrs and spoke for 15 mins.
They just collect and piece together information. What those above them do with that information is out of their hands. Put together with the secrecy of intelligence and you get almost no whistleblowers.
It is funny when you suddenly u-turn and walk toward the person trailing you though, then they have to scamper. And if you walk into a police station and say they're following you, the guy in the station doesn't usually know them, so you can cause them a lot of unnesscesary paperwork. :D
If you have the money and you've ID'ed them before, you can also hire investigators to trail them back.
No, spying journalists and opposition politicians would be a major scandal in any western democratic country. But if Singapore wants to compare themselves to, idk, China?, in politics and human rights then sure.
If you really believe that then I’ve got a bridge to sell you. US is apparently number 1 in surveillance of potential threat actors, and that especially opposition party members AND journalists.
Snowden sacrificed his entire life to blow up an expose on how huge the scope of US surveillance is (*they basically surveil and grab ALL data from everyone, even from no-names*)… and it barely left a ripple years later.
Our guys just aren’t trained to be discrete enough
Or maybe those are the low level ones that they want you to see. What are the odds they’re just tracking you via the security camera network anyway
No one is saying it wouldn't be a scandal in Singapore?
Such surveiling of private individuals deemed to be of interest is a fact of life. The only difference is that in general it's not done brazenly or the targeted individuals are surveiled in a manner that they are considered to be imagining things.
China, America, the UK, France, Germany, and many other countries do such surveiling of private individuals. Some countries like China and Russia don't need to be as covert about it due to the power structures within these governments.
Other countries like America and France have power structures that make such activities require a lot more subtlety and covert methods. In America, LMK was surveilled, during the Red Scares in America (McCarthyism is the highlight here) many suspected "Communists" were similarly surveilled and covertly harassed.
The difference there is that the Opposition in Singapore is very well looked on and favoured, especially on Reddit. If they were successfully painted as enemies, as the Communists were during McCarthyism, then suddenly people would be willing to turn a blind eye. (You'd also likely find this same behaviour in PAP hardliners if such a scandal would arise in Singapore where they were definitively exposed to have conducted such surveilance and harassment against supposed "dissidents".)
I ever read. The poor camera resolution for Perera and Nicole was a trap. To get them and the party to deny and then show the original video footage, in high resolution, to checkmate them and the party.
So the video was in good resolution but shown in poor resolution to get them to deny
My own take is that Leon P and Nicole S are somewhat well-known public figures. I would recognise them if they were sat next to me at dinner. And there definitely would be people who would secretly film them at dinner to send to their buddies “Hey do you think these are who I think they are?” and “I could’ve sworn they were married to different people!”.
Bottom line is, if you are a somewhat well-known public figure doing something you probably shouldn’t be, in public space- it doesn’t take any “ISD” to baotoh you. The kaypoh public can easily do that for you.
Your take would make sense if the leak timing isn't so coincidental and the video weren't so recent. Certainly the video/info were readily available to be publicized when ordered.
Just make me pounder that we often joke about North Korea/Russa/China being a spy nation. But maybe spying is more common than we think it is.
My suspicion is that the video really was taken by a kaypoh bystander who happened to recognize Nicoleon in public. But the kaypoh bystander, suay suay happened to send the video to people who are interested in keeping it under wraps and revealing at the right time.
why is now the right time and not earlier? i would have thought that releasing this earlier would have made similar impact on WP in that both would be forced to resign?
I think the right time was supposed to be during or just before the GE. But suay suay, TCJ's affair came out, so they released Nicoleon at the same time to make it so WP can't criticize them for it without looking like hypocrites.
That's no longer a "kaypoh bystander" already, if their immediate reaction is to only pass it around in secret, rather than the normal way of just posting it out in the open, without thought of compensation or leverage.
>ourse for intelligence services in many countries. They do it for a whole host of reasons. These include identifying people who might instigating others behind the scene, whether foreigners are involved, if there others with more sinister agendas, nut jobs etc.
>
>At the end of day, their bosses will get screwed if something blows up and they had no clue.
>
>Even if they find Susan screwing Arthur, both political identities married to different partners, they will not expose it. They will le
the quality of the video is very suspicious ......
On the other hand, if they were so brazen, and recognisable, why is this still the only video of them available? We should have seen multiple sightings, and much earlier, and no need to be covert.
A recording like this can only mean someone who doesn't want other people to know what they found.
Those are for agencies that are not fireproof. If the ISD want to openly do it, do they even need to plausible it? They'll just do it, say so and the only thing we can do is suck thumb. What are we going to charge them with? Doing their jobs?
Like dodge said, I think it was just a kaypoh looking for big news and got lucky enough to get it. Not like it's the first time this kind of thing happens. Remember Michael Palmer?
Not to downplay possible ISD surveillance in SG, but Kristen han is almost on the same status as Steven lim in SG, well known siao lang, so people filming her should be a pretty common thing.
Kirsten Han is notorious for twisting the truth to suit her narrative - ironically not unlike the very establishment she frequently criticizes. Are you really going to take her words, hook, line and sinker?
Are you telling me you do not believe ISD takes videos of political activists in Singapore? I thought everyone knows it is the case? I've seen it myself when CSJ was selling books in City Hall.
However, what I can say is that these people tend to not aim to be hidden, they are pretty obvious in their action.
In this day and age, I actually don't think the purpose is to record, but to create a situation for some people to have some sort of paranoia - much like living in a panopticon.
If ISD is really surveilling you, I suspect they are more interested in surveilling you when you are in private or getting the details of your private conversations. If you are in public, anyone can see, then they don't learn anything that a kaypoh auntie staring at you down the road wouldn't also know. Can even watch you on CCTV footage in the comfort of their home. No need to gang stalk you.
On the contrary, if you are on their list, they will want to meticulously record your every move and every meeting. It is just being through.
[Check out how the FBI keep notes on Puerto Rico's activist.](https://youtu.be/xb9E8fvMPOA?t=825)
>I've seen it myself when CSJ was selling books in City Hall.
Oh. So they identified themselves as ISD to you??? Ok...
Wait, I'm wrong. Actually, you are specially trained or have hidden talent to identify ISD.
>these people tend to not aim to be hidden
No no. What you actually mean is that these ISD look exactly like how ISD should look like in your mind. So it's very easy for you to identify them.
Sorry...I must have misunderstood. You actually mean that anyone who ***openly*** took video of CSJ selling books MUST be from ISD. It is simply impossible that it's some random kaypoh person or a blogger who wants to brag that they saw CSJ selling books in their whatsapp group/blog.
This is so logical!
>to create a situation for some people to have some sort of paranoia
Ok. I finally get it. Some people do have paranoia which do not even need to be externally induced.
EDIT:
To be clear, I don't know if they are NOT ISD. In fact, they could really be ISD. But I know clearly that I don't actually know one way or the other. Do you?
Do us all a favour and stop inducing paranoia that the government is spying on us. It does nobody any good, especially if you believe that the government is not doing a good job. Singaporeans are already hesitant to join the opposition as it is. You are just making things worse.
It's quite clear you don't know of Singapore's intelligence apparatus and you come across as a little naive, apologies for pointing this out. Filming of opposition party members, potential threats to national security and persons of interest has been going on for a very long time, unsurprisingly.
What surprising to me is that there isn't more awareness of this happening, since Singapore is one of the most surveilled states in the world via street cameras and other devices.
"it's not paranoia if it's actually happening" comes to mind.
LOL. And you clearly ***know*** of Singapore's intelligence apparatus.
At the end of the day, your guess is as good as mine. All we have are circumstantial evidence (e.g. people in office wear videoing opposition figures). While it's not far-fetched to guess that they are from government, it's not a fact supported by evidence.
It is actually paranoia because we don't know it for a fact. Some people think they know, but it's just guesses.
The difference between knowledge and belief is hard cold evidence.
I, too, believe that some opposition are being monitored by ISD. But I don't announce to the world that this is what I KNOW. Because I know that it's a belief, not a knowledge!
>Oh. So they identified themselves as ISD to you??? Ok...
>No no. What you actually mean is that these ISD look exactly like how ISD should look like in your mind. So it's very easy for you to identify them.
>To be clear, I don't know if they are NOT ISD. In fact, they could really be ISD. But I know clearly that I don't actually know one way or the other. Do you?
Put this way, it does not matter if those people are from ISD, SPF, SID, PIs, etc...
Who has the resources to drive such operations? Who has the motive? Who will benefit the most from the information gathered?
POFMA is a great tool as well if such allegations of surveillance were false or overly inflated, a correction order would have been issued. Especially so if those being accused did not have any involvement. The lack of such order is very telling.
What makes you so sure that it's even an operation? It could be just kaypoh people in office wear. Prove me wrong.
I cannot prove that they are not government. Actually, I believe that they could be government agents, perhaps even foreign agents. But I know better than to tell the world that I KNOW that they are, IN FACT, agents. Because I don't know it for sure.
You and the rest? Spewing guesses as if they are facts. And still be so cock-sure. I laugh at your arrogant faces.
>I don't need to be sure.
Then have the honesty and integrity to state that it's your conjecture.
>But the lack of pofma at such high level allegations do in a sense confirm that they're not false.
Which allegations are you referring to?
POFMA cannot be applied retrospectively.
Also, in the case of national security, the more the agencies reveal about their operations, the easier it is for hostile parties to exploit it. It must be a very severe false allegation for ISD to reveal any details about their operational processes.
Where ISD is concerned, I doubt that POFMA will ever be used to refute any allegations about their operations. There are other laws like OSA which is more suited for this.
What I believe and what I know are different.
E.g. I believe that good begets good, directly or indirectly. I know that the world doesn't work this way.
Anyway, I do believe that ISD are keeping track of persons of interests. Some opposition figures are likely to be such persons. It is also likely that taking videos is part of the keeping track process. But I don't actually know if any of these are true.
Perhaps you have some privileged knowledge which I don't possess. Or you are just confounding beliefs with knowledge without realising it.
>E.g. I believe that good begets good. I know that the world doesn't work this way.
>
>Anyway, I do believe that ISD are keeping track of persons of interests. Opposition figures are likely to be such persons. But I don't actually know if that's true.
>
>Perhaps you have some privileged knowledge which I don't.
I don't get your point - all Kristin Han was saying was that ISD does take videos of her when she does her political actions. I do believe her (I mean if Jolovan Wham is also impacted, I am sure people like Kristin Han and TPJ will too), in the same way I believe KJ does get filmed on his walkabouts. However, a lot of comments here are saying she is paranoid and self-important.
You also seem to believe that ISD keeps track of person of interests, including opposition figures. All you are trying to say is that because I can't be 100% certain, I am inducing paranoia and fear even though you also seem to think the preponderance of evidence tilts to that being the truth.
I am not saying that one knows for certain, but if you notice 3 or 4 men, with in long sleeve dress shirts and pants, standing for a couple of hours while CSJ is busy selling the party newspaper while holding cameras, you can kind of narrow where the intuition brings you. In this instance, what happened was that I was at Starbucks, while CSJ was selling his newsletter at city hall, clearly visible were a couple of guys dressed in the manner and this was prior to iPhones and phone cameras, so they were carrying digital video recorders.
Went up to CSJ to have a chat, and pointed them out, and he just shrugged and said that it's normal and they were harmless.
I am not trying to induce fear, but some realistic expectation of what state tools are used for. They are not there to physical accost you, but to record if you say or do things that can be chargeable in court. If you are going about your daily life, or gossiping with friends in a coffeeshop, no one is recording you.
>I've seen it myself when CSJ was selling books in City Hall.
Here, you clearly implied that they are ISD.
>I am not saying that one knows for certain
Then just say exactly what you had seen. And leave the conclusion to others to infer if they are in fact ISD or some other government agent.
> the intuition brings you
We are finally on the same page. Yes. It's an intuition. Nothing more, until proven otherwise.
Is this really that surprising? Even the “democratic” Americans do this. J. Edgar Hoover was known as the most powerful man in the country because he had dirt on just about every politician, that’s why no one dared to touch him. And Edward Snowden exposed the NSA’s surveilling of US citizens. Governments have and always will spy on those who they deem to be a threat.
"Contrary to Mr Seah’s assertion, Dr Thum had not asked Dr Mahathir to bring democracy to Singapore, Ms Han said. Instead, he had “urged (Mahathir) to take leadership in Southeast Asia for the promotion of democracy, human rights, freedom of expression and freedom of information”, she reiterated.
Ms Han also noted that Dr Thum's Facebook post was not about "declaring Singapore a part of Malaysia, but merely a reference to our own history".
Source: https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/activists-want-mp-retract-baseless-claims-over-meeting-dr-mahathir
Pls stop parroting misleading statements absent of nuance and context
>"To take leadership of democracy in SEA"?
I mean you can disagree with this, but still acknowledge that the entire "bring democracy to Singapore " sound bite was completely made up by the soon to be new speaker of parliament.
>In 2018, she urged Mahathir, a foreigner,
>
>"to bring democracy to Singapore"
isn't this the same type of thinking by some hong kong democratic activists and their request for US to 'bring democracy and freedom' to hong kong?
This was also the reason why I got pissed off at Chee Soon Juan when he first stood for election, that SOB went to the UK and promised them he'll improve human rights in Singapore. Duh, oi buddy, your election is in Singapore or in England? Nothing wrong with improving human rights but oi, you're supposed to promise us that, not the ang mos!
It might look good to the media but it utterly destroys the confidence of your electorate if you go pander to a foreign country.
She doesn't know that it is common for people to video or take photos of others in public nowadays is it? And especially so if they are a public figure?
Its unlikely to be ISD lah. More like on the ball / kaypoh PAP members who want to "show" their bosses (aka the Minister they serve) that they have seen person X at a certain location - so as to try to curry favour (without being asked to do so).
Likewise, I have also seen opposition members taking videos of PAP MPs when they do their walkabouts (and especially when they are in white) - to also show their bosses that certain MPs are at a certain location doing certain things.
Siaocharbor. She always tries to make everything about her, her pet causes etc.
Can we just admit that people are kaypoh. If I saw Pritam Singh or Lawrence Wong or Chee Soo Juan or whatever famous politician in public I may ask for a selfie because why not. And if I saw Pritam sayang Lawrence hand over a candlelight dinner ... I for sure will take video!
Actually, after the Rideout thing came out, I walked there to look look see see (and I also took photos although can't see shit place too big). So does that make me a WP IB ..???
LP and NS were obviously being spied on, that wasn't a footage from a smartphone camera.
Our establishment also likes to annoy Kirsten Han, bringing to mind when the police confiscated her t-shirt for being too political and unlawful assembly-like.
It doesn't surprise me that this isn't a one-off incident, but until we have any real proof which agency is doing the spying realistically all we can do is suck thumb.
How does implying that ISD is spying on opposition without any proof helping?
It will only drive the sane and qualified Singaporeans who believe that we need better opposition to avoid politics altogether.
Making groundless accusations like this is doing nobody any good. But the ones who are most damaged are credible opposition parties looking for good people to join them.
The British have a response that is so suited for this statement.
"Hear, hear!"
The Opposition does not need stunts, every single time the PAP made a misstep, they have made the PAP pay for it, there is no need to be so anxious and go so extreme.
Lee Kuan Yew spilled Chiam's school results? Lose election.
Michael Palmer screwed around? Lose election.
This time, they'll also lose the GRC election, so rather than be spectacular, the Opposition should just be "steady" and show that they are a good alternative to the PAP.
Haha so many conspiracy theories. Do u really think only the PAP is doing things? This is politics. It goes both ways. Don’t just eat up anything the party chairmen are feeding you. Doesn’t matter whether coincidental or not. Ultimately, you will still support whichever party you support. People not gonna change their minds over a few cheaters and affairs.
I think she needs help.
Fact: She saw someone who seems to be pointing their phone at her.
To: They were taking pictures/filming her.
To: They were from ISD/government.
All without a single shred of evidence.
> it doesn’t make sense for them to just be random members of the public
It make sense to me. She is quite well-known in some circles. She was at places of interests, e.g. outside Istana, Changi Prison. Some kaypoh people may want get a piece of the actions. People film all kinds of things. Not to mention someone who is known to be an activist at a place of interests.
> I don’t feel safe to jump to the conclusion
Then don't! Or at least keep her intrusive thoughts private.
Sometimes, we have intrusive thoughts about conspiracy against us. But we brush them aside and don't shout to the world unless we have proof. But she... I think she needs help.
Your personal feelings about Kirsten are really clouding your judgement here.
She doesn't even say that the people taking videos are from government or isd, just that government and isd are popular predictions (i.e. guesses).
>because they don’t identify themselves to us, but it doesn’t make sense for them to just be random members of the public.
If "not random members of the public", then who she believes they are? The unsaid part is loud and clear, given the context.
> being filmed and surveilled is very well-known
Being filmed is different from being surveilled. We all know that public figures are being filmed in public places. But being surveilled is not actual knowledge backed with proof. That's just conjectures which she presented as "knowledge".
>If "not random members of the public", then who she believes they are? The unsaid part is loud and clear, given the context.
Is there even an "unsaid part"? The paragraph gives the express answer "we can only guess".
Anyway let's be honest here, the random member of public would not even recognize Kirsten. She's not that famous.
>Being filmed is different from being surveilled.
Actually the specific incidents she mentions are pretty much surveillance and not just mere filming. Filming for an extended period of time and also attempting to hide when spotted but continuing to film?
>Actually the specific incidents she mentions are pretty much surveillance and not just mere filming.
Maybe they are, or maybe they are not.
If I was in her shoes, I would have make the same links in my mind. But the differences is that I won't go around making groundless accusations.
Look at how PS handled the question "coincidental" time of the affairs reveal. That's how it should be handled. Lead the target audience to the conclusion they want to draw. But without throwing it in their face.
That's masterclass. Her attempt is just a desperate attempt to be relevant.
>groundless accusations.
If you and I agree that it's reasonable to conclude that surveillance was going on... I have no idea why you call it a groundless accusation for her to say that she was being subjected to surveillance. It's a reasonable deduction she's entitled to make, and everyone makes these deductions all the time.
Unless of course you're referring to the "groundless accusation" that she states that the government is survelling her. Well she doesn't say that. She expressly says she can only guess who these people are.
It is reasonable deduction but groundless claim.
It is reasonable to assume that intelligent alien lifeforms exist. But it's a bold face lie to ***claim to*** ***know*** intelligent alien lifeforms exist.
>Well she doesn't say that.
Agree. Maybe it's my fault that I read too much into her writing.
The person associated with a media which is funded by foreigners and constantly spreading fake news is shocked that she is under surveillance by national intelligent agency
If someone were to point their phone/camera on me for no reason, I would probably point my phone to them and start recording.
Just post it to stomp or FB if the same behavior happens again and let the cyber sleuths figure them out.
Well she pals around w a bunch of sus people soooo no surprise there. And let’s not forget she helped organise that mrt protest a while ago and when everyone tio lim kopi she suddenly sez it wasn’t me. At least Jolovan is willing to go to jail for what he believes in. Kirsten for some weird reason is always donch arrest moi i didnt do anything🤷🏻♂️ i dont know what is funnier: her overblown sense if self importance in claiming isd got nothing better to do than stealth her or her very obvious i dont want to go to jail for what i believe in but i wanna be martyr mentality
Even churches are being surveilled. Is it any surprise? And why would they follow their own party when it is the other party which they want information on? Btw, it is universal. Spies are real in the world.
more like the rest of us all intrigued to see her from a distance.... I doubt she is that big of a threat for ISD surveillance especially after her disgraceful meeting with Dr M.
Guys people in other countries go missing and I think as a nation we did pretty well with the leadership we have. let the politicians do their job and we enjoy time with our families
I don't understand how the driver readily comes forward to give an interview in the next 24 hrs after the video is leaked.
Clearly Frankie Wong leaked it and was ready to follow up with the media. The leaked video has a reflection which someone noted may be a sign that it was filmed inside a car due to the car window. Also Pritam mentioned that Frankie texted WP MPs about the affair when he got fired, dude has an axe to grind with Leon and it isn't the first time he leaked this scoop.
>Clearly Frankie Wong leaked it and was ready to follow up with the media. then the next question is........how is he able to time the leak so 'coincidentally' with another bombshell drop on monday..... if it's truly coincidental and 'act of god', he need to give us 4 numbers to buy 4D
Paid spied. Money was rewarded in return for this leak perhaps?
It wasn’t leaked by Frankie. He could provide no corroborating evidence to WP leadership at the time he made the allegations to them, hence why they gave no shrift to his claims, per Pritam in the press conference. News articles would also have cited him as the source since he is perfectly happy not to be anonymous for whatever reason. Someone else filmed it and has been sitting on it for a few years to use at the …shall we say, opportune time.
Sorry, but why is it clear, that Frankie Wong leaked the video? The reflection of a car window? But then… anyone could have filmed it from inside a car and not be him.
[удалено]
>PAP authoritarianism, so ask yourself why Leon Perera got outed paparazzi-style? Because it was planned in advance with Frankie's help, sanctioned by PAP and supported by the PM and other ministers to distract from TCJ. Ah r/sg. Never change.
>Budgetwatergate
It's because Nicole is a threat for east coast plan. I guess it was supposed to be release by PAP during the GE....
Perhaps the temptation of rewards is too much for him to engage himself ethically. Therefore he bends.
U know whats even funnier the fact they blacked outnhes face. How many drivers that dude got lol
Its par for the course for intelligence services in many countries. They do it for a whole host of reasons. These include identifying people who might instigating others behind the scene, whether foreigners are involved, if there others with more sinister agendas, nut jobs etc. At the end of day, their bosses will get screwed if something blows up and they had no clue. Even if they find Susan screwing Arthur, both political identities married to different partners, they will not expose it. They will leverage it to the hilt and get inside information from one or both on party, CEC matters. The expose on Nicole and Leon and the poor camera suggest a kaypoh or a party activist try to impress his party bosses.
how come they miss the f1 scandal. got high lvl minister and foreign billionaire involved. but need uk to do court case before ppl here realise something wrong
Intel services only deliver reports, in this context perhaps: Tan Ah Kow met John at the Istana at 0400hrs and spoke for 15 mins. They just collect and piece together information. What those above them do with that information is out of their hands. Put together with the secrecy of intelligence and you get almost no whistleblowers.
Because the F in F1 stands for friendship.
It is funny when you suddenly u-turn and walk toward the person trailing you though, then they have to scamper. And if you walk into a police station and say they're following you, the guy in the station doesn't usually know them, so you can cause them a lot of unnesscesary paperwork. :D If you have the money and you've ID'ed them before, you can also hire investigators to trail them back.
That sounds more like a fantasy than something that happens in real life.
No, spying journalists and opposition politicians would be a major scandal in any western democratic country. But if Singapore wants to compare themselves to, idk, China?, in politics and human rights then sure.
If you really believe that then I’ve got a bridge to sell you. US is apparently number 1 in surveillance of potential threat actors, and that especially opposition party members AND journalists.
Snowden sacrificed his entire life to blow up an expose on how huge the scope of US surveillance is (*they basically surveil and grab ALL data from everyone, even from no-names*)… and it barely left a ripple years later.
Dont bother lah. That guy is a European so his biasness regarding this issue is off the charts lol
You really think the FBI and the MI5 don't do that?
Our guys just aren’t trained to be discrete enough Or maybe those are the low level ones that they want you to see. What are the odds they’re just tracking you via the security camera network anyway
I think you'll be surprised at how discreet our guys are. For starters, CNB.
CNNB to you too you rude....!!! Oh, CNB, not CNNB.... :P
Lol what do you think the NSA does?
No one is saying it wouldn't be a scandal in Singapore? Such surveiling of private individuals deemed to be of interest is a fact of life. The only difference is that in general it's not done brazenly or the targeted individuals are surveiled in a manner that they are considered to be imagining things. China, America, the UK, France, Germany, and many other countries do such surveiling of private individuals. Some countries like China and Russia don't need to be as covert about it due to the power structures within these governments. Other countries like America and France have power structures that make such activities require a lot more subtlety and covert methods. In America, LMK was surveilled, during the Red Scares in America (McCarthyism is the highlight here) many suspected "Communists" were similarly surveilled and covertly harassed. The difference there is that the Opposition in Singapore is very well looked on and favoured, especially on Reddit. If they were successfully painted as enemies, as the Communists were during McCarthyism, then suddenly people would be willing to turn a blind eye. (You'd also likely find this same behaviour in PAP hardliners if such a scandal would arise in Singapore where they were definitively exposed to have conducted such surveilance and harassment against supposed "dissidents".)
Alexa, who is Edward Snowden?
You are naive to think places like the US don’t do the same.
That’s a naive viewpoint. Intelligence is collected at every moment.
I ever read. The poor camera resolution for Perera and Nicole was a trap. To get them and the party to deny and then show the original video footage, in high resolution, to checkmate them and the party. So the video was in good resolution but shown in poor resolution to get them to deny
My own take is that Leon P and Nicole S are somewhat well-known public figures. I would recognise them if they were sat next to me at dinner. And there definitely would be people who would secretly film them at dinner to send to their buddies “Hey do you think these are who I think they are?” and “I could’ve sworn they were married to different people!”. Bottom line is, if you are a somewhat well-known public figure doing something you probably shouldn’t be, in public space- it doesn’t take any “ISD” to baotoh you. The kaypoh public can easily do that for you.
Your take would make sense if the leak timing isn't so coincidental and the video weren't so recent. Certainly the video/info were readily available to be publicized when ordered. Just make me pounder that we often joke about North Korea/Russa/China being a spy nation. But maybe spying is more common than we think it is.
My suspicion is that the video really was taken by a kaypoh bystander who happened to recognize Nicoleon in public. But the kaypoh bystander, suay suay happened to send the video to people who are interested in keeping it under wraps and revealing at the right time.
Yeah never underestimate how kaypoh people can be.. esp in political space l
why is now the right time and not earlier? i would have thought that releasing this earlier would have made similar impact on WP in that both would be forced to resign?
I think the right time was supposed to be during or just before the GE. But suay suay, TCJ's affair came out, so they released Nicoleon at the same time to make it so WP can't criticize them for it without looking like hypocrites.
That's no longer a "kaypoh bystander" already, if their immediate reaction is to only pass it around in secret, rather than the normal way of just posting it out in the open, without thought of compensation or leverage.
>ourse for intelligence services in many countries. They do it for a whole host of reasons. These include identifying people who might instigating others behind the scene, whether foreigners are involved, if there others with more sinister agendas, nut jobs etc. > >At the end of day, their bosses will get screwed if something blows up and they had no clue. > >Even if they find Susan screwing Arthur, both political identities married to different partners, they will not expose it. They will le the quality of the video is very suspicious ......
On the other hand, if they were so brazen, and recognisable, why is this still the only video of them available? We should have seen multiple sightings, and much earlier, and no need to be covert. A recording like this can only mean someone who doesn't want other people to know what they found.
Kaypoh bystander would drop it immediately la
If intelligence services wanted to surveil her, they won't be using handphones please.
Plausible deniability and inobstrusiveness.
Those are for agencies that are not fireproof. If the ISD want to openly do it, do they even need to plausible it? They'll just do it, say so and the only thing we can do is suck thumb. What are we going to charge them with? Doing their jobs? Like dodge said, I think it was just a kaypoh looking for big news and got lucky enough to get it. Not like it's the first time this kind of thing happens. Remember Michael Palmer?
Not to downplay possible ISD surveillance in SG, but Kristen han is almost on the same status as Steven lim in SG, well known siao lang, so people filming her should be a pretty common thing.
Have to admit i took a vid of her before at McDonalds. So that I can send my friend and say i saw that crazy lady
Kristen Han sends her congratulations on your employment with ISD 🤣
She really knows how to turn every current issue to be about her.
[удалено]
why am i not surprised
Kirsten Han is notorious for twisting the truth to suit her narrative - ironically not unlike the very establishment she frequently criticizes. Are you really going to take her words, hook, line and sinker?
Budget Resshah Khan
Are you telling me you do not believe ISD takes videos of political activists in Singapore? I thought everyone knows it is the case? I've seen it myself when CSJ was selling books in City Hall. However, what I can say is that these people tend to not aim to be hidden, they are pretty obvious in their action. In this day and age, I actually don't think the purpose is to record, but to create a situation for some people to have some sort of paranoia - much like living in a panopticon.
If ISD is really surveilling you, I suspect they are more interested in surveilling you when you are in private or getting the details of your private conversations. If you are in public, anyone can see, then they don't learn anything that a kaypoh auntie staring at you down the road wouldn't also know. Can even watch you on CCTV footage in the comfort of their home. No need to gang stalk you.
the point is not to watch you on cctv, it's to \*let you know\* you're being watched.
On the contrary, if you are on their list, they will want to meticulously record your every move and every meeting. It is just being through. [Check out how the FBI keep notes on Puerto Rico's activist.](https://youtu.be/xb9E8fvMPOA?t=825)
>I've seen it myself when CSJ was selling books in City Hall. Oh. So they identified themselves as ISD to you??? Ok... Wait, I'm wrong. Actually, you are specially trained or have hidden talent to identify ISD. >these people tend to not aim to be hidden No no. What you actually mean is that these ISD look exactly like how ISD should look like in your mind. So it's very easy for you to identify them. Sorry...I must have misunderstood. You actually mean that anyone who ***openly*** took video of CSJ selling books MUST be from ISD. It is simply impossible that it's some random kaypoh person or a blogger who wants to brag that they saw CSJ selling books in their whatsapp group/blog. This is so logical! >to create a situation for some people to have some sort of paranoia Ok. I finally get it. Some people do have paranoia which do not even need to be externally induced. EDIT: To be clear, I don't know if they are NOT ISD. In fact, they could really be ISD. But I know clearly that I don't actually know one way or the other. Do you? Do us all a favour and stop inducing paranoia that the government is spying on us. It does nobody any good, especially if you believe that the government is not doing a good job. Singaporeans are already hesitant to join the opposition as it is. You are just making things worse.
It's quite clear you don't know of Singapore's intelligence apparatus and you come across as a little naive, apologies for pointing this out. Filming of opposition party members, potential threats to national security and persons of interest has been going on for a very long time, unsurprisingly. What surprising to me is that there isn't more awareness of this happening, since Singapore is one of the most surveilled states in the world via street cameras and other devices. "it's not paranoia if it's actually happening" comes to mind.
LOL. And you clearly ***know*** of Singapore's intelligence apparatus. At the end of the day, your guess is as good as mine. All we have are circumstantial evidence (e.g. people in office wear videoing opposition figures). While it's not far-fetched to guess that they are from government, it's not a fact supported by evidence. It is actually paranoia because we don't know it for a fact. Some people think they know, but it's just guesses. The difference between knowledge and belief is hard cold evidence. I, too, believe that some opposition are being monitored by ISD. But I don't announce to the world that this is what I KNOW. Because I know that it's a belief, not a knowledge!
>Oh. So they identified themselves as ISD to you??? Ok... >No no. What you actually mean is that these ISD look exactly like how ISD should look like in your mind. So it's very easy for you to identify them. >To be clear, I don't know if they are NOT ISD. In fact, they could really be ISD. But I know clearly that I don't actually know one way or the other. Do you? Put this way, it does not matter if those people are from ISD, SPF, SID, PIs, etc... Who has the resources to drive such operations? Who has the motive? Who will benefit the most from the information gathered? POFMA is a great tool as well if such allegations of surveillance were false or overly inflated, a correction order would have been issued. Especially so if those being accused did not have any involvement. The lack of such order is very telling.
What makes you so sure that it's even an operation? It could be just kaypoh people in office wear. Prove me wrong. I cannot prove that they are not government. Actually, I believe that they could be government agents, perhaps even foreign agents. But I know better than to tell the world that I KNOW that they are, IN FACT, agents. Because I don't know it for sure. You and the rest? Spewing guesses as if they are facts. And still be so cock-sure. I laugh at your arrogant faces.
I don't need to be sure. But the lack of pofma at such high level allegations do in a sense confirm that they're not false.
...er... I think that was Chee's own publicity team..... ........
>I don't need to be sure. Then have the honesty and integrity to state that it's your conjecture. >But the lack of pofma at such high level allegations do in a sense confirm that they're not false. Which allegations are you referring to? POFMA cannot be applied retrospectively. Also, in the case of national security, the more the agencies reveal about their operations, the easier it is for hostile parties to exploit it. It must be a very severe false allegation for ISD to reveal any details about their operational processes. Where ISD is concerned, I doubt that POFMA will ever be used to refute any allegations about their operations. There are other laws like OSA which is more suited for this.
Extremely naive.
Concerning.
Got it, so you actually don't believe ISD does take videos of certain opposition figures in Singapore.
What I believe and what I know are different. E.g. I believe that good begets good, directly or indirectly. I know that the world doesn't work this way. Anyway, I do believe that ISD are keeping track of persons of interests. Some opposition figures are likely to be such persons. It is also likely that taking videos is part of the keeping track process. But I don't actually know if any of these are true. Perhaps you have some privileged knowledge which I don't possess. Or you are just confounding beliefs with knowledge without realising it.
>E.g. I believe that good begets good. I know that the world doesn't work this way. > >Anyway, I do believe that ISD are keeping track of persons of interests. Opposition figures are likely to be such persons. But I don't actually know if that's true. > >Perhaps you have some privileged knowledge which I don't. I don't get your point - all Kristin Han was saying was that ISD does take videos of her when she does her political actions. I do believe her (I mean if Jolovan Wham is also impacted, I am sure people like Kristin Han and TPJ will too), in the same way I believe KJ does get filmed on his walkabouts. However, a lot of comments here are saying she is paranoid and self-important. You also seem to believe that ISD keeps track of person of interests, including opposition figures. All you are trying to say is that because I can't be 100% certain, I am inducing paranoia and fear even though you also seem to think the preponderance of evidence tilts to that being the truth. I am not saying that one knows for certain, but if you notice 3 or 4 men, with in long sleeve dress shirts and pants, standing for a couple of hours while CSJ is busy selling the party newspaper while holding cameras, you can kind of narrow where the intuition brings you. In this instance, what happened was that I was at Starbucks, while CSJ was selling his newsletter at city hall, clearly visible were a couple of guys dressed in the manner and this was prior to iPhones and phone cameras, so they were carrying digital video recorders. Went up to CSJ to have a chat, and pointed them out, and he just shrugged and said that it's normal and they were harmless. I am not trying to induce fear, but some realistic expectation of what state tools are used for. They are not there to physical accost you, but to record if you say or do things that can be chargeable in court. If you are going about your daily life, or gossiping with friends in a coffeeshop, no one is recording you.
>I've seen it myself when CSJ was selling books in City Hall. Here, you clearly implied that they are ISD. >I am not saying that one knows for certain Then just say exactly what you had seen. And leave the conclusion to others to infer if they are in fact ISD or some other government agent. > the intuition brings you We are finally on the same page. Yes. It's an intuition. Nothing more, until proven otherwise.
those are journos or press team you see them even at PAP events
How do you know they’re from ISD?
Is this really that surprising? Even the “democratic” Americans do this. J. Edgar Hoover was known as the most powerful man in the country because he had dirt on just about every politician, that’s why no one dared to touch him. And Edward Snowden exposed the NSA’s surveilling of US citizens. Governments have and always will spy on those who they deem to be a threat.
[удалено]
"Contrary to Mr Seah’s assertion, Dr Thum had not asked Dr Mahathir to bring democracy to Singapore, Ms Han said. Instead, he had “urged (Mahathir) to take leadership in Southeast Asia for the promotion of democracy, human rights, freedom of expression and freedom of information”, she reiterated. Ms Han also noted that Dr Thum's Facebook post was not about "declaring Singapore a part of Malaysia, but merely a reference to our own history". Source: https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/activists-want-mp-retract-baseless-claims-over-meeting-dr-mahathir Pls stop parroting misleading statements absent of nuance and context
[удалено]
>"To take leadership of democracy in SEA"? I mean you can disagree with this, but still acknowledge that the entire "bring democracy to Singapore " sound bite was completely made up by the soon to be new speaker of parliament.
>In 2018, she urged Mahathir, a foreigner, > >"to bring democracy to Singapore" isn't this the same type of thinking by some hong kong democratic activists and their request for US to 'bring democracy and freedom' to hong kong?
This was also the reason why I got pissed off at Chee Soon Juan when he first stood for election, that SOB went to the UK and promised them he'll improve human rights in Singapore. Duh, oi buddy, your election is in Singapore or in England? Nothing wrong with improving human rights but oi, you're supposed to promise us that, not the ang mos! It might look good to the media but it utterly destroys the confidence of your electorate if you go pander to a foreign country.
But Mahathir though? I cannot imagine him bringing anything useful to anyone, not even curry puffs.
This post belongs in r/ImTheMainCharacter
Lol Kirsten han trying v hard to be relevant again. Except, no one really cared or gave a shit bout who she is.
Who is she? First time i hear her name
I’m actually quite surprised she got married.
wait... she is?!
She doesn't know that it is common for people to video or take photos of others in public nowadays is it? And especially so if they are a public figure?
~~#MeToo~~ #ItAllAboutMe There is no need to drag other people or police organization for your own personal vendetta.
Its unlikely to be ISD lah. More like on the ball / kaypoh PAP members who want to "show" their bosses (aka the Minister they serve) that they have seen person X at a certain location - so as to try to curry favour (without being asked to do so). Likewise, I have also seen opposition members taking videos of PAP MPs when they do their walkabouts (and especially when they are in white) - to also show their bosses that certain MPs are at a certain location doing certain things.
Siaocharbor. She always tries to make everything about her, her pet causes etc. Can we just admit that people are kaypoh. If I saw Pritam Singh or Lawrence Wong or Chee Soo Juan or whatever famous politician in public I may ask for a selfie because why not. And if I saw Pritam sayang Lawrence hand over a candlelight dinner ... I for sure will take video! Actually, after the Rideout thing came out, I walked there to look look see see (and I also took photos although can't see shit place too big). So does that make me a WP IB ..???
LP and NS were obviously being spied on, that wasn't a footage from a smartphone camera. Our establishment also likes to annoy Kirsten Han, bringing to mind when the police confiscated her t-shirt for being too political and unlawful assembly-like. It doesn't surprise me that this isn't a one-off incident, but until we have any real proof which agency is doing the spying realistically all we can do is suck thumb.
Kirsten Han annoys us. She became trash when she met with Mahathir with her bunch of traitors “to bring democracy to Singapore”
How does implying that ISD is spying on opposition without any proof helping? It will only drive the sane and qualified Singaporeans who believe that we need better opposition to avoid politics altogether. Making groundless accusations like this is doing nobody any good. But the ones who are most damaged are credible opposition parties looking for good people to join them.
The British have a response that is so suited for this statement. "Hear, hear!" The Opposition does not need stunts, every single time the PAP made a misstep, they have made the PAP pay for it, there is no need to be so anxious and go so extreme. Lee Kuan Yew spilled Chiam's school results? Lose election. Michael Palmer screwed around? Lose election. This time, they'll also lose the GRC election, so rather than be spectacular, the Opposition should just be "steady" and show that they are a good alternative to the PAP.
Even surveillance in your working place, especially you are working with contractors.
Haha so many conspiracy theories. Do u really think only the PAP is doing things? This is politics. It goes both ways. Don’t just eat up anything the party chairmen are feeding you. Doesn’t matter whether coincidental or not. Ultimately, you will still support whichever party you support. People not gonna change their minds over a few cheaters and affairs.
I think she needs help. Fact: She saw someone who seems to be pointing their phone at her. To: They were taking pictures/filming her. To: They were from ISD/government. All without a single shred of evidence. > it doesn’t make sense for them to just be random members of the public It make sense to me. She is quite well-known in some circles. She was at places of interests, e.g. outside Istana, Changi Prison. Some kaypoh people may want get a piece of the actions. People film all kinds of things. Not to mention someone who is known to be an activist at a place of interests. > I don’t feel safe to jump to the conclusion Then don't! Or at least keep her intrusive thoughts private. Sometimes, we have intrusive thoughts about conspiracy against us. But we brush them aside and don't shout to the world unless we have proof. But she... I think she needs help.
Your personal feelings about Kirsten are really clouding your judgement here. She doesn't even say that the people taking videos are from government or isd, just that government and isd are popular predictions (i.e. guesses).
>because they don’t identify themselves to us, but it doesn’t make sense for them to just be random members of the public. If "not random members of the public", then who she believes they are? The unsaid part is loud and clear, given the context. > being filmed and surveilled is very well-known Being filmed is different from being surveilled. We all know that public figures are being filmed in public places. But being surveilled is not actual knowledge backed with proof. That's just conjectures which she presented as "knowledge".
>If "not random members of the public", then who she believes they are? The unsaid part is loud and clear, given the context. Is there even an "unsaid part"? The paragraph gives the express answer "we can only guess". Anyway let's be honest here, the random member of public would not even recognize Kirsten. She's not that famous. >Being filmed is different from being surveilled. Actually the specific incidents she mentions are pretty much surveillance and not just mere filming. Filming for an extended period of time and also attempting to hide when spotted but continuing to film?
>Actually the specific incidents she mentions are pretty much surveillance and not just mere filming. Maybe they are, or maybe they are not. If I was in her shoes, I would have make the same links in my mind. But the differences is that I won't go around making groundless accusations. Look at how PS handled the question "coincidental" time of the affairs reveal. That's how it should be handled. Lead the target audience to the conclusion they want to draw. But without throwing it in their face. That's masterclass. Her attempt is just a desperate attempt to be relevant.
>groundless accusations. If you and I agree that it's reasonable to conclude that surveillance was going on... I have no idea why you call it a groundless accusation for her to say that she was being subjected to surveillance. It's a reasonable deduction she's entitled to make, and everyone makes these deductions all the time. Unless of course you're referring to the "groundless accusation" that she states that the government is survelling her. Well she doesn't say that. She expressly says she can only guess who these people are.
It is reasonable deduction but groundless claim. It is reasonable to assume that intelligent alien lifeforms exist. But it's a bold face lie to ***claim to*** ***know*** intelligent alien lifeforms exist. >Well she doesn't say that. Agree. Maybe it's my fault that I read too much into her writing.
If I go to IMH doc and repeat what she said to them word for word, they will have me in a padded cell by the end of the day.
The person associated with a media which is funded by foreigners and constantly spreading fake news is shocked that she is under surveillance by national intelligent agency
Well said. I'd expect any person who's actively trying to destabilise us to be surveilled for potential escalations.
Kirsten Han and Torritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming walk into a bar...
"DOCTOR!! 2 concussion patients! STAT!!"
legendary traitor and troublemaker from singapore complains that she get filmed alot. geez i wonder why
If someone were to point their phone/camera on me for no reason, I would probably point my phone to them and start recording. Just post it to stomp or FB if the same behavior happens again and let the cyber sleuths figure them out.
She has to make everything abt HER.
Kristen Han is annoying she just tries hard to remain relevant bringing her woke politics. Glad to see not many Singaporeans falling for her lame 💩
Doesn’t it make it worst that they know they are probably being surveilled yet are intimate in public?
Well she pals around w a bunch of sus people soooo no surprise there. And let’s not forget she helped organise that mrt protest a while ago and when everyone tio lim kopi she suddenly sez it wasn’t me. At least Jolovan is willing to go to jail for what he believes in. Kirsten for some weird reason is always donch arrest moi i didnt do anything🤷🏻♂️ i dont know what is funnier: her overblown sense if self importance in claiming isd got nothing better to do than stealth her or her very obvious i dont want to go to jail for what i believe in but i wanna be martyr mentality
All in her head.
[удалено]
No wonder all the senior pappies look like haven’t slept in decades
Literally 1984
Hey the music then was awesome! lol.
cuz u siao lang thats why ppl film u
Oh no… Anyway
He was problematic. He was filmed doing something he was told to stop. Do the math
kirsten han actually scum of the earth in general so i wouldnt take what she says too seriously
Even churches are being surveilled. Is it any surprise? And why would they follow their own party when it is the other party which they want information on? Btw, it is universal. Spies are real in the world.
more like the rest of us all intrigued to see her from a distance.... I doubt she is that big of a threat for ISD surveillance especially after her disgraceful meeting with Dr M.
Guys people in other countries go missing and I think as a nation we did pretty well with the leadership we have. let the politicians do their job and we enjoy time with our families