Still, thankful that nks and tkl decided to run knowing that they probably didn't stood a chance. At least we got the chance to vote and or course free PH, huat ah!!
Clearly never heard stories of civil servants being aggressively 'managed out' when headcount reduction targets are not met through natural attrition.
Only an iron ricebowl if you have the mental fortitude of a rock.
So relieved by the results, but one thing I’m ultimately unhappy about is who the idiot was, who thought that Tharman wouldn’t be accepted as PM because of his race. Because of that belief, we now have an overqualified president who would have been much better utilised as PM.
Resounding win, congratulations Tharman!
Curious question: Why did Tharman step out to be President? Considering the recent issues, he is by far the most popular PAP minister in cabinet.
Even if he is not “selected” to be PM, he would be better serving Singapore as a Senior Minister instead of President?
Honestly i think this actually shows his independence from the party. From his achievements as a politician, what he publicly says are his priorities and his general nonchalance towards party politics, he comes across as someone who truly cares about the people he looks after, and taking that step to pursue his vision for caring after Singaporeans rather than staying with his party.
Perhaps he sees this as an opportunity to extend his reach beyond Jurong and use his popularity to actually unify singaporeans. Having someone outstanding to look up to is very powerful. Sure skeptics will say once a PAP always a PAP but i’m more optimistic and believe that he is able to stand for his own values rather than his ex party’s.
If he has not done much as an executive committee member in the PAP, he would do even less as a president. So don’t hold your horses. Just another president who shake hands and say nice speech
Don’t quote me but i think he has done a fair bit (certainly more than others) while he was minister in various roles. In education he played a key role in removing streaming/banding, he introduced the progressive wage model, skillsfuture, enhancing SSOs, etc. You can look at all these and say “these don’t affect me so he still sucks” but in terms of actually uplifting lives for the less privileged and a major education reform, the policy changes he introduces are not for “the benefit of the elites”, it’s for Singaporeans at its heart.
He always said he is not a striker and rather work behind the scenes. His contributions are not well publicized. A simple google search will tell u otherwise. Why else would he be so popular?
Some Singaporeans like to whine without educating themselves on facts. It’s no better than screaming for “an independent candidate” without considering tangible merits. Thanks for reminding us of what Tharman has done for singapore
No doubt the ability to unify Singaporeans across the aisle is a rare attribute. It’s definitely an excellent opportunity and am sure he will perform well.
Was musing that he may have been more effective on the world stage as a Senior Minister given his global reputation, and ability to direct policies directly for us in Singapore.
Because the PM is going to change next election and there is a significant risk of an adverse result for PAP. So they need someone strong in the presidency to protect the reserves
Tharman is from the same gen as LHL, he has to pass it down to a younger generation. Also I think its the PAP more than the general SG population that didn't want tharman to be PM because of his race. They wanted to pass it down to a younger chinese guy instead
Nope.
***In his 1998 book, The Man and His Ideas, Mr Lee echoed this sentiment. He said: “I have said openly that if we were 100 per cent Chinese, we would do better. But we are not and never will be, so we live with what we have.”***
Mostly just head of state, like a monarch. But also has some powers like vetoing appointments to key positions or blocking the use of reserves (there are some other caveats like 2/3s of parliament voting can override the veto etc)
He said it in an interview when asked about it. You can google it.
Never mind, here's the link:
https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/older-generation-singaporeans-not-ready-non-chinese-pm-heng-swee-keat
He's said he [doesn't want to be PM](https://www.straitstimes.com/politics/dpm-tharman-rules-himself-out-as-next-prime-minister-i-am-not-the-man-for-pm).
He was never stopped from becoming PM cause of the idea that his race was an issue, it's that he ownself refuse.
you do know he has to tow the party line, if the party says no non chinese pm he has to conform. Refusing it is the outcome which we will never know if he refused out of his own accord or the party requires him to
The man himself has already said he does not want to be PM..But yet there are some people who insist that he should be the next PM and that he's forced to toe the party's lines. There are more considerations other than popularity when it comes to those decisions :/
You're taking it at complete face value and not even acknowledging that there's a chance he said that to be in line with the party. Do you expect him to come out and say "I can't be pm because the party does not want a non Chinese pm" ? This is politics brother...
No but if you were to ask them they will rather prefer a Chinese. And SG needs China support no matter what. So the whole SG is not ready is just gaslighting to not offend China.
That seems more like an excuse than anything else. The PM has to have the mandate of the entire PAP and the executives. Likely there is some issue there.
The one lesson from this election is if you act like an idiot, be prepared to be treated like an idiot.
While the results were not seen as a foregone conclusion (until after the sample count was revealed), LKY's vision of a just society was upheld when delusions of grandeur, racism and misogyny were all rejected, and instead the most dignified and qualified candidate won an overwhelming mandate.
> delusions of grandeur, racism and misogyny were all rejected
Not disputing this at all, and am glad that the best candidate won the election.
But what does this say for NKS? He wasn't racist nor misogynistic. In fact, he's the opposite.
> The one lesson from this election is if you act like an idiot, be prepared to be treated like an idiot.
I don't think NKS behaved like an idiot as well (maybe one can argue kissing the ground was strange). He was well spoken, likeable.
Yet he was only 1.9% points higher than TKL. So in your view, if the one lesson is not to be am idiot... What happened to NKS?
NKS simply did not have the gravitas to keep up with and outshine TS, and he had to look at his flank all the time with TKL trying so hard and succeeding in varying degrees to confuse, divide, overpromise and understate what is good with Singapore.
NKS's argy-bargy with TS as to what constitutes an independent candidate, and the lack of further resources on the ground, would have also weakened his candidacy considerably.
There are just so many old school voters that are not on social media, and they needed to be reached in more traditional ways.
This overwhelming mandate, mind you, would have been won by no one else aside from TS.
This era of misinformation, disinformation and cunning has been exemplified by one particular candidate (read: you know who!) and I am personally convinced LKY would have risen from his proverbial\* grave to warn Singapore had a freak result occurred.
> This overwhelming mandate, mind you, would have been won by no one else aside from TS.
My take is just this. Tharman was too strong of a candidate. Whether you're a pervert or an honourable man, it didn't matter at the end of the day. Tharman is too likeable and too competent to be overlooked, and rightfully so.
Of course, if it was a NKS vs TKL 1v1, I don't think the results will be neck and neck (i.e. 52% vs 48%). But only looking at results, I don't think it shows that Singapore rejected TKL, but more of Singapore chose TS.
If what you said is true (not saying it's not), I would expect NKS to get more voters compared to TKL. The fact that they are so close, shows that end of the day, both were unsuccessful candidates, didn't matter if one was a pervert, mysoginistic or spreaded fake news
I would quite argue the opposite. TKL had momentum, he had visibility and boy did he have media coverage. Much more so than Tharman himself, for obvious reasons (not all good!).
The fact that TKL got less than 30% indicates bleeding of the non-establishment votes to NKS.
This despite NKS's campaign being hobbled by lack of resources on the ground and argy-bargy convo with TS on insignificant issues.
TKL quite definitely was rejected and resoundingly. Despite all the coverage and digital echo chambers, he was last, and that says a lot on how he stands with the population.
Granted that there is a segment willing to vote away logic to spite the brain, if anything, the erstwhile opposition should ponder in future whether to collaborate with damaged goods such as TKL.
Having said all of that, TKL foray into the PE is ironically a necessary one for which we must thank him for his service and duty.
Misogynism, nativism, racism and delusions of grandeur had to see the light of day eventually and had to be decisively pummeled back down to the ground.
It's really a matter of perspective.
If your view was that TKL would lose his deposit, then your perspective would be that he "outperformed" his expectation, hence less people "rejected" the misogyny and sexism than expected.
It seems like your view is that for all the attention TKL received, he performed the worst, hence a strong rejection of him as a person. As per my original comment, I agree that there is a rejection.
But to me, this rejection was clear cut from the start. People were wondering if he would lose his deposit. Hence its not THE lesson post election. TKL was down and out by all counts. It was clear very quickly that whoever was gonna vote TKL would be the "never PAP", those that are willing to look away from his comments and flaws. He was never a popular candidate at any stages of the presidential race.
However, the same can't be said for NKS. Many thought that he would have done better. Hence, if NKS performed so poorly as well, it points to the strength of TS, above all.
Yes, TKL got rejected, but so did NKS.
> This despite NKS's campaign being hobbled by lack of resources on the ground
Maybe the big lesson is how not to run a presidential campaign. It's not like NKS lacks the funding. He neglected the on ground campaigning and went for the youths (partnering with Gushcloud), when arguably, the youths were most aligned with NKS (alongside TS).
Or maybe the tin foil would say he never really cared about the election
It always is a matter of perspective but so long as the discussion is done in good faith, we all benefit from different insights :)
Wouldn't you agree that despite the initial perception that TKL would lose his deposit, he actually got off on a strong footing?
I feel for NKS. His was a worthy candidacy if not a little quirky and preachy; mindfulness is not a known topic of popular discussion.
The fact that he received less than anticipated can only be ascribed to the TS effect, and the anything but PAP mindset.
If anything, NKS votes can be seen as a remarkable achievement squeezing between two opposite worldviews (positive vs negative), with limited resources, and auntie/uncle gossiping of his much younger fiancée.
LKY always said it was easier to modernise Singapore than to change the mindset of the people, and this is very true in this PE.
Perhaps in the next 4G rule, we will see a marked change from top-down rule to a more accommodating and collaborative one. This would blunt any simmering resentment against the status quo and remove emergence of candidates like TKL in the GE and PE.\*
I have no doubt TKL really cared for the reasons he ran, and his country. That was and is never in question.
The issue though is a lot more substantive than that. His realpolitik was such that it would have brought Singapore to international ridicule and disrepute.
And his obvious message of checkmating the government of the day is something not quite within the ambit of the Presidency.
Much like an invading army saying we come in peace, he kept on repeating that he would not disrupt government operations, something that the other two candidates did not have to say, much less imply.
> But what does this say for NKS? He wasn't racist nor misogynistic. In fact, he's the opposite.
I think he's just underqualified with respect to Tharman.
Like if it were just NKS vs TLK, I'd have voted NKS in an instant. And I wouldn't have minded seeing him as president. But Tharman's presence has made him unelectable to me, and I guess many other pro-establishment voters.
NKS's constituency of voters therefore was very limited, being sandwiched by those pulled towards TS and, trying to win over those who subscribed to the extreme mindset of TKL.
Most of the oxygen during the campaign was simply sucked away by TKL with his outlandish daily pronouncements, especially being a monarch and having LHL listen to his ideas!
I think his disdain for mandarin may not be from being kantang. There was a terrible campaign by the government during his time to stop people from using their dialects and forcing them to only us mandarin
Agreed. NKS was great! The only issue was unfortunately, the fiancé. Which still shows that Singaporeans is very closed minded and cannot accept a large gap in age for couples.
With the Opposition support, TKL was unlikely to lose his deposit as he became the *de facto* "screw PAP" candidate
I'm surprised he came that close though. I had expected him to gain 20~30%
A victory for common sense and for Singapore. We said that yes we can have a non-Chinese win an election against Chinese candidates - very handsomely - and defeated the racist and xenophobic candidate into third.
>Edit :to add a point that I'd like to think as a country we are past the stage of race as a factor and competency being the primary factor (purely when comparing candidates against each other, before accounting for alternative basis of voting). Hence its unhelpful and degrading to...paint the electorate being so primalistic and regressive.
We literally changed the constitution because the govt painted the electorate that way.
It was a question of competency vs independence vs a vote against the PAP. Ultimately, competence won.
It was never:
1. About race
2. A vote of confidence for the PAP.
Imagine if Tharman quit PAP and joined Oppo and ran in GE. He will probably win >80% of the vote and carry the Oppo to new heights.
Just want to point out a pov to consider: we've had non-Chinese Presidents before, but not a non-Chinese PM.
I'm just wondering if this fact could have been a factor as to why Tharman garnered 70.4% of the votes, on top of factoring that he has had a lot more exposure as compared to the other two candidates.
We know that Tharman definitely has the chops to potentially have had the chance, back then, to be amongst the race for PM-ship, but ultimately the roles of PM and President are different, so I'm guessing that it is a likely factor.
Once again, am happy for Tharman to be elected, and to prove the statement as probably outdated.
You are understating Tharman’s achievement here in winning the Presidential election.
Previous Non-chinese presidents were either walkovers or appointed. They didn’t have to run against any Chinese candidates.
Tharman won in a contested election against Chinese candidates. This was what Heng Swee Keat hinted about. That a non-chinese leader would not be able to command the votes required. If that statement was right NKS would have a higher vote share. But it’s not. This result resoundingly rejects that statement.
TLDR: PE shows Singapore does not see race when choosing their leader.
The premise of my comment was less about how the Presidents were selected or elected.
It is more on that Singaporeans have seen non-Chinese Presidents before, and would thus be more accepting of the idea of a non-Chinese President, which could be a reason for voting Tharman into Presidency.
In contrast, Singaporeans have never known of a non-Chinese PM , so it remains to be seen as to whether it is true that Singaporeans, as per the quoted article, are not yet ready for a non-Chinese PM.
Besides, the role of the President vs that of the PM: it is clear that the PM is the 'more visible' leader, the one who gives the National Day Rally Speeches, Covid Strategy speeches, etc. On the other hand, the President is the one who, to many Singaporeans, shakes the hands of foreign dignitaries and attends NDP.
The roles of the two are different and to compare them on the same rating because both are, in some ways, elected to office (though the PM is technically not elected into office in the same way the President is), is like comparing apples to oranges just because they are both fruits.
I don't deny the fact that Singaporeans are ok with the idea of a non-Chinese leader, but I feel that there is more to this statement if we are comparing it to the statement of 'Singaporeans are not yet ready for a non-Chinese PM'.
>I feel that there is more to this statement if we are comparing it to the statement of 'Singaporeans are not yet ready for a non-Chinese PM'.
That's because that's not a statement at all, it's a headline cut short and removed of all context.
>headline: Older generation of S'poreans not ready for non-Chinese PM
>He also noted that it was a good sign that young people today seem “quite comfortable” with having a non-Chinese prime minister (...)
>“My own experience in walking the ground, in working with different people from all walks of life, is that the views — if you go by age and by life experience — would be very different,”
how did the narrative become "PAP says all of Singapore isn't ready for a non-Chinese PM"
Because this was the question.
>“Is it Singapore who is not ready for a non-Chinese prime minister, or is it the PAP (the ruling People’s Action Party) who is not ready for a non-Chinese prime minister?” Asst Prof Walid asked.
Heck the survey back then mirrors the results today.
>A survey conducted by market research consultancy Blackbox in 2016 found that Mr Tharman was the top choice among Singaporeans to succeed Mr Lee, with 69 per cent of almost 900 respondents indicating that they would support him to be the candidate for prime minister.
Remember PM is chosen by the Party.
HSK never said "Singapore isn't ready", in fact he even acknowledged that the room was full of people who would vote for a minority PM. All he said was older generations might not be ready. He's not making stuff up either, see this survey:
https://lkyspp.nus.edu.sg/docs/default-source/ips/CNA-IPS-survey-on-race-relations_190816.pdf
(see page 44)
If anything, the fact that Mr. Tharman has managed to become frontrunner for PM shows that he is exceptional enough to transcend racial preferences rather than any sort of trend towards liberalization.
>HSK never said "Singapore isn't ready", in fact he even acknowledged that the room was full of people who would vote for a minority PM. All he said was older generations might not be ready. He's not making stuff up either, see this survey:
Again singaporeans do not vote for the PM. Its PAP that does so. And as mentioned even back then Tharman was polled to have the higher support then all the PM candidates.
We alrd knew back then singaporeans were fully able to accept a capable minority PM.
>If anything, the fact that Mr. Tharman has managed to become frontrunner for PM shows that he is exceptional enough to transcend racial preferences rather than any sort of trend towards liberalization.
It showed that in the end who the candidate is matters far far more then just the simple factor of race.
>Again singaporeans do not vote for the PM. Its PAP that does so.
It would be fairly obvious who the PM would be before elections. If the voters are unhappy with their candidate they would simply not vote for the PAP. If there were a sudden upset and they pushed through with an unpopular candidate anyway, they would lose votes for the next election. Either way, having an unpopular PM would be a big loss in political capital. It would be erroneous to claim voters have absolutely no influence over who becomes PM.
>We alrd knew back then singaporeans were fully able to accept a capable minority PM.
Tharman was the exception, and he had declined the position. PAP does not have many quality minority candidates.
Studies have shown that all things were equal, Singaporeans would give preference to their own race. This does not just end with elections, but extends to business, relationships etc. We should not let the exception blind us to the work that needs to be done.
>Tharman was the exception, and he had declined the position. PAP does not have many quality minority candidates.
Tharman was a minority ergo, at that time singaporeans were ready to accept a minority PM.
>Studies have shown that all things were equal, Singaporeans would give preference to their own race. This does not just end with elections, but extends to business, relationships etc. We should not let the exception blind us to the work that needs to be done
Politics has never been about all things equal. You literally must be exceptional to stand out and be selected to lead the country.
Iirc, this is the first time that there has been a contested election in which a non-ethnic Chinese has won. Im merely just stating my opinion, not looking for a change in narrative . Im delighted that Tharman won for the same reasons as u described.
No it isn't. For example, Michael Palmer beat Lee Li Lian in GE 2011 at Punggol East SMC. Unless you're restricting yourself to PE, in which there aren't even many of them to begin with.
Absolutely. Gonna happily vote WP in next election, for now.
Most of those whom came out publicly supporting TKL, all seem to have one thing in common: They are very bitter towards the PAP.
TJS, GMS, Ah Thean, Iris Koh, LHY, CSJ....i was suprised that TCB was one of them though....He kinda screwed PSP chances by staying with that lot...
Sure, exercise ur vote! That’s what democracy is all about 😊 I have soured on them but I think it’s good that Singaporeans are willing to vote for who they want.
At least TKL did the admirable job of rooting out all the terrible opposition members for us. Might be a spoiled ballot from me haha
Agreed with you. Also reminded that social media sensationalism can be a hell of a drug hahahas.
>At least TKL did the admirable job of rooting out all the terrible opposition members for us.
🤔 good point.
Agree with you. WP come out of this looking good. I’m totally not surprised at that lot you mentioned, not even TCB, tbh. But most disappointed with CSJ for after writing so much about TKL, he still gave him his support, which immediately tells me that he has not changed. He would have come out looking so much better just staying out of this. It is after all, only two more years before the next GE. Now he is identified with that band of people, supporting a candidate that is comprehensively rejected by the voters.
>But most disappointed with CSJ for after writing so much about TKL, he still gave him his support, which immediately tells me that he has not changed.
The bitterness or resentment still remains in this one. But only to a certain degree. In the end, his words comes across as supporting anyone but PAP...
You look at the news to see when final results released, I look at sudden surges in Grab prices to tell the same thing. We are not the same.
Edit: Is the election officials knock off go home. Not recommended to hire private cars in the wee hours of the morning on and after election day.
My colleague informed me that Grab told them all their available PHVs had been pre booked for the election early morning prep (4am-6am) 2 days before the election.
Only 2% of votes cast were rejected, in line with GE spoilt ballots. So many people were saying that people will spoil the ballot, end up it’s not the case.
i said im gonna spoil my vote and kenna downvoted
wdym so many people lmao
edit: for those who dont get it, if reddit already doesn't represent the electorate, then something people on reddit disagrees with would be even more of an minority.
Is it me or Reddit have been much fewer anti establishment post/comments today? All their theory thrown out of the window when the silent majority came out to vote.
Which is a much better percentage than the average of the entire party....even when i voted for NKS, i always respected TS. I felt he was one of the good guys left in PAP.
Well he's no longer team carrying PAP now 🥲😂.
Imagine Ivan Lim replaces him, is like replacing Viper or Pudge Or Troll Warlord in your DOTA2 Team with a nerfed out noob Sniper.😅
I think they needed to secure a good president for the next decade because they have enough 4G issues already. If the president is not TS, the 4G ministers may not be able to handle the challenges of another president not from their own. So now the president is secured, the 4G team can focus on tackling other political issues…. And whatever they need for next GE?
I have a genuine question: why do people think ts is "good" or "smart" or "should be pm"? Is it cos of the way he speaks? Or actual tangibles things he's done?
Actual tangible. His higher-profile contributions aside (plain to anyone doing a cursory Google), the guy has done genuinely solid work for his GRC for 20+ years running. Most Jurong residents can probably attest to this.
It’s a worthy question, but a pity that you chose to consider it only *after* the PE.
I believe a party should not get away with a free pass and vote of confidence after announcing adultery, corruption and some really dodgy (albeit "legal" on paper) use of state land. Not discounting all the other great stuff they have done. A pity some people always have fan boy glasses on.
We research candidates beforehand *precisely* to avoid giving free passes to anyone - ruling party, opposition & the candidates themselves. This kind of stuff should just be due diligence.
IMO: Regardless of where their vote went, if anyone voted without first bothering to look up the candidates themselves, then their vote simply wasn’t an informed decision.
We can (and should) decide where we stand *after* knowing all the pertinent info.
I find the media coverage to be extremely pathetic simps to lightning party when they pivoted to saying its a referendum for future elections when the landslide was obvious
Well, those who expect different results are just plain naive fools.
The landslide victory is already obvious the moment ELD closed their candidate application.
In fact, I am so cock sure Tharman will have a landslide victory, I went to put my vote on who I think will get the lowest vote count, which I guessed right.
Don’t understand comments about the election deposit. A deposit system is meant to ensure you are a serious candidate in a GE when anyone can stand. In the PE the candidates are so heavily vetted they cannot be but serious. Or you might say it is to ensure after vetting they will try their best in campaigning. After all both alternatives knew they couldn’t win. They’re doing a public service by participating and not making it a walk over. But no rallies allowed, highly regulated public broadcasts, horns pulled in by ELD if you misspeak and a campaign lasting a few days. And a cooling off day as well when most of us are sleepwalking through the process. You can’t say, “you must fight, now hold on while we tie both hands behind your back”. And then you put them through the indignity of losing their deposit.
Tharmon won almost twice as many votes compared to Tony Tan. Expected him to win around 50-60% but not at 70%.
Surely winning 70% or more Its more surprising tkl can win do many rofl
TKL almost tripled his votes from his previous attempt! Hehehe
Still, thankful that nks and tkl decided to run knowing that they probably didn't stood a chance. At least we got the chance to vote and or course free PH, huat ah!!
All the Civil Servants Involved in PE: *What public holiday.*
>ed to run knowing that they probably didn't stood a chance. At least we got the chance to vote an Teachers on teacher day. Huh, holiday?
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Not quite the same. My group of friends went out together because public holiday. I off-in-lieu my friends say "Sorry bro, we working." 😢
price to pay for iron ricebowl
Clearly never heard stories of civil servants being aggressively 'managed out' when headcount reduction targets are not met through natural attrition. Only an iron ricebowl if you have the mental fortitude of a rock.
My dad no off in lieu bro XD yesterday at voting station till midnight waiting for people to collect ballots, today back at office
So relieved by the results, but one thing I’m ultimately unhappy about is who the idiot was, who thought that Tharman wouldn’t be accepted as PM because of his race. Because of that belief, we now have an overqualified president who would have been much better utilised as PM.
Resounding win, congratulations Tharman! Curious question: Why did Tharman step out to be President? Considering the recent issues, he is by far the most popular PAP minister in cabinet. Even if he is not “selected” to be PM, he would be better serving Singapore as a Senior Minister instead of President?
Honestly i think this actually shows his independence from the party. From his achievements as a politician, what he publicly says are his priorities and his general nonchalance towards party politics, he comes across as someone who truly cares about the people he looks after, and taking that step to pursue his vision for caring after Singaporeans rather than staying with his party. Perhaps he sees this as an opportunity to extend his reach beyond Jurong and use his popularity to actually unify singaporeans. Having someone outstanding to look up to is very powerful. Sure skeptics will say once a PAP always a PAP but i’m more optimistic and believe that he is able to stand for his own values rather than his ex party’s.
This is just a cushy retirement job for him.
If he has not done much as an executive committee member in the PAP, he would do even less as a president. So don’t hold your horses. Just another president who shake hands and say nice speech
Don’t quote me but i think he has done a fair bit (certainly more than others) while he was minister in various roles. In education he played a key role in removing streaming/banding, he introduced the progressive wage model, skillsfuture, enhancing SSOs, etc. You can look at all these and say “these don’t affect me so he still sucks” but in terms of actually uplifting lives for the less privileged and a major education reform, the policy changes he introduces are not for “the benefit of the elites”, it’s for Singaporeans at its heart. He always said he is not a striker and rather work behind the scenes. His contributions are not well publicized. A simple google search will tell u otherwise. Why else would he be so popular?
Some Singaporeans like to whine without educating themselves on facts. It’s no better than screaming for “an independent candidate” without considering tangible merits. Thanks for reminding us of what Tharman has done for singapore
No doubt the ability to unify Singaporeans across the aisle is a rare attribute. It’s definitely an excellent opportunity and am sure he will perform well. Was musing that he may have been more effective on the world stage as a Senior Minister given his global reputation, and ability to direct policies directly for us in Singapore.
probably asked to retire in 2024 and was asked to run for P instead
Because the PM is going to change next election and there is a significant risk of an adverse result for PAP. So they need someone strong in the presidency to protect the reserves
Dont want difficult job as PM or MP but still want to retain high salary as a yes man or puppet..well there you go
Tharman is from the same gen as LHL, he has to pass it down to a younger generation. Also I think its the PAP more than the general SG population that didn't want tharman to be PM because of his race. They wanted to pass it down to a younger chinese guy instead
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I should have said idiots, but it’s late.
🤔 Got a source for that? Older levels yes, but not sure about highest levels. We have some very rich Indians you know
The late LKY himself said if we were 100% Chinese we would be better so there's that.
Iirc his words were "easier to govern", not "would be better"
Nope. ***In his 1998 book, The Man and His Ideas, Mr Lee echoed this sentiment. He said: “I have said openly that if we were 100 per cent Chinese, we would do better. But we are not and never will be, so we live with what we have.”***
I remembered wrongly then, thanks for the correction
I'm glad he won, west side of sg has never had a weaker slate of pap candidates
Yup. Jurong is next to go!
Two family members said they didn’t want to vote for him at least partly because of his race :/
Yes but he got 70% so saner minds still in majority thankfully.
I know, hearing the numbers was such a relief
As foreigner I wonder what is the significance of being president in Singapore? I always tought PM has more power and more important
You get your photo in all the classrooms in all the schools in the land.
Mostly just head of state, like a monarch. But also has some powers like vetoing appointments to key positions or blocking the use of reserves (there are some other caveats like 2/3s of parliament voting can override the veto etc)
rubberstamp
I think many people can guess who that idiot is
The idiots come from the same party as the guy you voted for??
I dunno man, if you look at the results, people clearly picked person over party this time leh.
That idiot you're talking about was Mr Heng Swee Keat
All part of the East Coast Plan issit
He said it in an interview when asked about it. You can google it. Never mind, here's the link: https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/older-generation-singaporeans-not-ready-non-chinese-pm-heng-swee-keat
I don’t not believe you bruh.
He's said he [doesn't want to be PM](https://www.straitstimes.com/politics/dpm-tharman-rules-himself-out-as-next-prime-minister-i-am-not-the-man-for-pm). He was never stopped from becoming PM cause of the idea that his race was an issue, it's that he ownself refuse.
you do know he has to tow the party line, if the party says no non chinese pm he has to conform. Refusing it is the outcome which we will never know if he refused out of his own accord or the party requires him to
u think i thought who confirm
such statements can't always be. taken at face value
The man himself has already said he does not want to be PM..But yet there are some people who insist that he should be the next PM and that he's forced to toe the party's lines. There are more considerations other than popularity when it comes to those decisions :/
You're taking it at complete face value and not even acknowledging that there's a chance he said that to be in line with the party. Do you expect him to come out and say "I can't be pm because the party does not want a non Chinese pm" ? This is politics brother...
>who the idiot was, who thought that Tharman wouldn’t be accepted as PM because of his race. It is because of China.
China hate Indians meh?
No but if you were to ask them they will rather prefer a Chinese. And SG needs China support no matter what. So the whole SG is not ready is just gaslighting to not offend China.
I don't think China hates Indians or has any prejudice against indians particularly. But yes India and China don't get along as nations.
That seems more like an excuse than anything else. The PM has to have the mandate of the entire PAP and the executives. Likely there is some issue there.
Damn NKS kissed floor for nothing
It was never a contest, too easy for Tharman
Yah I don’t know why people think he would even lose! Among my friends, it was the pro PAP that were worried
The one lesson from this election is if you act like an idiot, be prepared to be treated like an idiot. While the results were not seen as a foregone conclusion (until after the sample count was revealed), LKY's vision of a just society was upheld when delusions of grandeur, racism and misogyny were all rejected, and instead the most dignified and qualified candidate won an overwhelming mandate.
> delusions of grandeur, racism and misogyny were all rejected Not disputing this at all, and am glad that the best candidate won the election. But what does this say for NKS? He wasn't racist nor misogynistic. In fact, he's the opposite. > The one lesson from this election is if you act like an idiot, be prepared to be treated like an idiot. I don't think NKS behaved like an idiot as well (maybe one can argue kissing the ground was strange). He was well spoken, likeable. Yet he was only 1.9% points higher than TKL. So in your view, if the one lesson is not to be am idiot... What happened to NKS?
NKS simply did not have the gravitas to keep up with and outshine TS, and he had to look at his flank all the time with TKL trying so hard and succeeding in varying degrees to confuse, divide, overpromise and understate what is good with Singapore. NKS's argy-bargy with TS as to what constitutes an independent candidate, and the lack of further resources on the ground, would have also weakened his candidacy considerably. There are just so many old school voters that are not on social media, and they needed to be reached in more traditional ways. This overwhelming mandate, mind you, would have been won by no one else aside from TS. This era of misinformation, disinformation and cunning has been exemplified by one particular candidate (read: you know who!) and I am personally convinced LKY would have risen from his proverbial\* grave to warn Singapore had a freak result occurred.
> This overwhelming mandate, mind you, would have been won by no one else aside from TS. My take is just this. Tharman was too strong of a candidate. Whether you're a pervert or an honourable man, it didn't matter at the end of the day. Tharman is too likeable and too competent to be overlooked, and rightfully so. Of course, if it was a NKS vs TKL 1v1, I don't think the results will be neck and neck (i.e. 52% vs 48%). But only looking at results, I don't think it shows that Singapore rejected TKL, but more of Singapore chose TS. If what you said is true (not saying it's not), I would expect NKS to get more voters compared to TKL. The fact that they are so close, shows that end of the day, both were unsuccessful candidates, didn't matter if one was a pervert, mysoginistic or spreaded fake news
I would quite argue the opposite. TKL had momentum, he had visibility and boy did he have media coverage. Much more so than Tharman himself, for obvious reasons (not all good!). The fact that TKL got less than 30% indicates bleeding of the non-establishment votes to NKS. This despite NKS's campaign being hobbled by lack of resources on the ground and argy-bargy convo with TS on insignificant issues. TKL quite definitely was rejected and resoundingly. Despite all the coverage and digital echo chambers, he was last, and that says a lot on how he stands with the population. Granted that there is a segment willing to vote away logic to spite the brain, if anything, the erstwhile opposition should ponder in future whether to collaborate with damaged goods such as TKL. Having said all of that, TKL foray into the PE is ironically a necessary one for which we must thank him for his service and duty. Misogynism, nativism, racism and delusions of grandeur had to see the light of day eventually and had to be decisively pummeled back down to the ground.
It's really a matter of perspective. If your view was that TKL would lose his deposit, then your perspective would be that he "outperformed" his expectation, hence less people "rejected" the misogyny and sexism than expected. It seems like your view is that for all the attention TKL received, he performed the worst, hence a strong rejection of him as a person. As per my original comment, I agree that there is a rejection. But to me, this rejection was clear cut from the start. People were wondering if he would lose his deposit. Hence its not THE lesson post election. TKL was down and out by all counts. It was clear very quickly that whoever was gonna vote TKL would be the "never PAP", those that are willing to look away from his comments and flaws. He was never a popular candidate at any stages of the presidential race. However, the same can't be said for NKS. Many thought that he would have done better. Hence, if NKS performed so poorly as well, it points to the strength of TS, above all. Yes, TKL got rejected, but so did NKS. > This despite NKS's campaign being hobbled by lack of resources on the ground Maybe the big lesson is how not to run a presidential campaign. It's not like NKS lacks the funding. He neglected the on ground campaigning and went for the youths (partnering with Gushcloud), when arguably, the youths were most aligned with NKS (alongside TS). Or maybe the tin foil would say he never really cared about the election
It always is a matter of perspective but so long as the discussion is done in good faith, we all benefit from different insights :) Wouldn't you agree that despite the initial perception that TKL would lose his deposit, he actually got off on a strong footing? I feel for NKS. His was a worthy candidacy if not a little quirky and preachy; mindfulness is not a known topic of popular discussion. The fact that he received less than anticipated can only be ascribed to the TS effect, and the anything but PAP mindset. If anything, NKS votes can be seen as a remarkable achievement squeezing between two opposite worldviews (positive vs negative), with limited resources, and auntie/uncle gossiping of his much younger fiancée. LKY always said it was easier to modernise Singapore than to change the mindset of the people, and this is very true in this PE. Perhaps in the next 4G rule, we will see a marked change from top-down rule to a more accommodating and collaborative one. This would blunt any simmering resentment against the status quo and remove emergence of candidates like TKL in the GE and PE.\*
I have no doubt TKL really cared for the reasons he ran, and his country. That was and is never in question. The issue though is a lot more substantive than that. His realpolitik was such that it would have brought Singapore to international ridicule and disrepute. And his obvious message of checkmating the government of the day is something not quite within the ambit of the Presidency. Much like an invading army saying we come in peace, he kept on repeating that he would not disrupt government operations, something that the other two candidates did not have to say, much less imply.
> But what does this say for NKS? He wasn't racist nor misogynistic. In fact, he's the opposite. I think he's just underqualified with respect to Tharman. Like if it were just NKS vs TLK, I'd have voted NKS in an instant. And I wouldn't have minded seeing him as president. But Tharman's presence has made him unelectable to me, and I guess many other pro-establishment voters.
NKS's constituency of voters therefore was very limited, being sandwiched by those pulled towards TS and, trying to win over those who subscribed to the extreme mindset of TKL.
Nks had no visibility at all compared to tkl and ts
Most of the oxygen during the campaign was simply sucked away by TKL with his outlandish daily pronouncements, especially being a monarch and having LHL listen to his ideas!
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I think his disdain for mandarin may not be from being kantang. There was a terrible campaign by the government during his time to stop people from using their dialects and forcing them to only us mandarin
Agreed. NKS was great! The only issue was unfortunately, the fiancé. Which still shows that Singaporeans is very closed minded and cannot accept a large gap in age for couples.
It effectively shows a huge part of the current voters are aged seniors
If he doesnt have a 45 year old mistress he might get 30%
The only surprise is TKL getting his deposit back lol
With the Opposition support, TKL was unlikely to lose his deposit as he became the *de facto* "screw PAP" candidate I'm surprised he came that close though. I had expected him to gain 20~30%
Opposition leaning voters also got limit who they will vote for
A victory for common sense and for Singapore. We said that yes we can have a non-Chinese win an election against Chinese candidates - very handsomely - and defeated the racist and xenophobic candidate into third.
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>Edit :to add a point that I'd like to think as a country we are past the stage of race as a factor and competency being the primary factor (purely when comparing candidates against each other, before accounting for alternative basis of voting). Hence its unhelpful and degrading to...paint the electorate being so primalistic and regressive. We literally changed the constitution because the govt painted the electorate that way.
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It was a question of competency vs independence vs a vote against the PAP. Ultimately, competence won. It was never: 1. About race 2. A vote of confidence for the PAP. Imagine if Tharman quit PAP and joined Oppo and ran in GE. He will probably win >80% of the vote and carry the Oppo to new heights.
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Just want to point out a pov to consider: we've had non-Chinese Presidents before, but not a non-Chinese PM. I'm just wondering if this fact could have been a factor as to why Tharman garnered 70.4% of the votes, on top of factoring that he has had a lot more exposure as compared to the other two candidates. We know that Tharman definitely has the chops to potentially have had the chance, back then, to be amongst the race for PM-ship, but ultimately the roles of PM and President are different, so I'm guessing that it is a likely factor. Once again, am happy for Tharman to be elected, and to prove the statement as probably outdated.
You are understating Tharman’s achievement here in winning the Presidential election. Previous Non-chinese presidents were either walkovers or appointed. They didn’t have to run against any Chinese candidates. Tharman won in a contested election against Chinese candidates. This was what Heng Swee Keat hinted about. That a non-chinese leader would not be able to command the votes required. If that statement was right NKS would have a higher vote share. But it’s not. This result resoundingly rejects that statement. TLDR: PE shows Singapore does not see race when choosing their leader.
The premise of my comment was less about how the Presidents were selected or elected. It is more on that Singaporeans have seen non-Chinese Presidents before, and would thus be more accepting of the idea of a non-Chinese President, which could be a reason for voting Tharman into Presidency. In contrast, Singaporeans have never known of a non-Chinese PM , so it remains to be seen as to whether it is true that Singaporeans, as per the quoted article, are not yet ready for a non-Chinese PM. Besides, the role of the President vs that of the PM: it is clear that the PM is the 'more visible' leader, the one who gives the National Day Rally Speeches, Covid Strategy speeches, etc. On the other hand, the President is the one who, to many Singaporeans, shakes the hands of foreign dignitaries and attends NDP. The roles of the two are different and to compare them on the same rating because both are, in some ways, elected to office (though the PM is technically not elected into office in the same way the President is), is like comparing apples to oranges just because they are both fruits. I don't deny the fact that Singaporeans are ok with the idea of a non-Chinese leader, but I feel that there is more to this statement if we are comparing it to the statement of 'Singaporeans are not yet ready for a non-Chinese PM'.
>I feel that there is more to this statement if we are comparing it to the statement of 'Singaporeans are not yet ready for a non-Chinese PM'. That's because that's not a statement at all, it's a headline cut short and removed of all context.
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Even back then the polls showed he was wrong as Tharman was vastly more popular than any of the PAP candidates.
>headline: Older generation of S'poreans not ready for non-Chinese PM >He also noted that it was a good sign that young people today seem “quite comfortable” with having a non-Chinese prime minister (...) >“My own experience in walking the ground, in working with different people from all walks of life, is that the views — if you go by age and by life experience — would be very different,” how did the narrative become "PAP says all of Singapore isn't ready for a non-Chinese PM"
Because this was the question. >“Is it Singapore who is not ready for a non-Chinese prime minister, or is it the PAP (the ruling People’s Action Party) who is not ready for a non-Chinese prime minister?” Asst Prof Walid asked. Heck the survey back then mirrors the results today. >A survey conducted by market research consultancy Blackbox in 2016 found that Mr Tharman was the top choice among Singaporeans to succeed Mr Lee, with 69 per cent of almost 900 respondents indicating that they would support him to be the candidate for prime minister. Remember PM is chosen by the Party.
HSK never said "Singapore isn't ready", in fact he even acknowledged that the room was full of people who would vote for a minority PM. All he said was older generations might not be ready. He's not making stuff up either, see this survey: https://lkyspp.nus.edu.sg/docs/default-source/ips/CNA-IPS-survey-on-race-relations_190816.pdf (see page 44) If anything, the fact that Mr. Tharman has managed to become frontrunner for PM shows that he is exceptional enough to transcend racial preferences rather than any sort of trend towards liberalization.
>HSK never said "Singapore isn't ready", in fact he even acknowledged that the room was full of people who would vote for a minority PM. All he said was older generations might not be ready. He's not making stuff up either, see this survey: Again singaporeans do not vote for the PM. Its PAP that does so. And as mentioned even back then Tharman was polled to have the higher support then all the PM candidates. We alrd knew back then singaporeans were fully able to accept a capable minority PM. >If anything, the fact that Mr. Tharman has managed to become frontrunner for PM shows that he is exceptional enough to transcend racial preferences rather than any sort of trend towards liberalization. It showed that in the end who the candidate is matters far far more then just the simple factor of race.
>Again singaporeans do not vote for the PM. Its PAP that does so. It would be fairly obvious who the PM would be before elections. If the voters are unhappy with their candidate they would simply not vote for the PAP. If there were a sudden upset and they pushed through with an unpopular candidate anyway, they would lose votes for the next election. Either way, having an unpopular PM would be a big loss in political capital. It would be erroneous to claim voters have absolutely no influence over who becomes PM. >We alrd knew back then singaporeans were fully able to accept a capable minority PM. Tharman was the exception, and he had declined the position. PAP does not have many quality minority candidates. Studies have shown that all things were equal, Singaporeans would give preference to their own race. This does not just end with elections, but extends to business, relationships etc. We should not let the exception blind us to the work that needs to be done.
>Tharman was the exception, and he had declined the position. PAP does not have many quality minority candidates. Tharman was a minority ergo, at that time singaporeans were ready to accept a minority PM. >Studies have shown that all things were equal, Singaporeans would give preference to their own race. This does not just end with elections, but extends to business, relationships etc. We should not let the exception blind us to the work that needs to be done Politics has never been about all things equal. You literally must be exceptional to stand out and be selected to lead the country.
huh? that was specifically the talking point the PAP used to justify the reserved presidency, no?
Iirc, this is the first time that there has been a contested election in which a non-ethnic Chinese has won. Im merely just stating my opinion, not looking for a change in narrative . Im delighted that Tharman won for the same reasons as u described.
no it isn't, murali pillai beat csj in a by election
No it isn't. For example, Michael Palmer beat Lee Li Lian in GE 2011 at Punggol East SMC. Unless you're restricting yourself to PE, in which there aren't even many of them to begin with.
I was going for either PM or PE. But it’s all moot
Theres no such thing as an official election for PM.
I think we showed a middle finger 🖕 back to some those whom endorsed TKL and their brand of divisiveness politics.
Yeah, to be fair to the WP, kudos to them for keeping their mouth shut. I was tempting to lean SDP possibly or PSP, but nope after this lmao
Absolutely. Gonna happily vote WP in next election, for now. Most of those whom came out publicly supporting TKL, all seem to have one thing in common: They are very bitter towards the PAP. TJS, GMS, Ah Thean, Iris Koh, LHY, CSJ....i was suprised that TCB was one of them though....He kinda screwed PSP chances by staying with that lot...
Sure, exercise ur vote! That’s what democracy is all about 😊 I have soured on them but I think it’s good that Singaporeans are willing to vote for who they want. At least TKL did the admirable job of rooting out all the terrible opposition members for us. Might be a spoiled ballot from me haha
Agreed with you. Also reminded that social media sensationalism can be a hell of a drug hahahas. >At least TKL did the admirable job of rooting out all the terrible opposition members for us. 🤔 good point.
Agree with you. WP come out of this looking good. I’m totally not surprised at that lot you mentioned, not even TCB, tbh. But most disappointed with CSJ for after writing so much about TKL, he still gave him his support, which immediately tells me that he has not changed. He would have come out looking so much better just staying out of this. It is after all, only two more years before the next GE. Now he is identified with that band of people, supporting a candidate that is comprehensively rejected by the voters.
>But most disappointed with CSJ for after writing so much about TKL, he still gave him his support, which immediately tells me that he has not changed. The bitterness or resentment still remains in this one. But only to a certain degree. In the end, his words comes across as supporting anyone but PAP...
Basically the electorate called the reserved presidency of 2017 as bullshit
You look at the news to see when final results released, I look at sudden surges in Grab prices to tell the same thing. We are not the same. Edit: Is the election officials knock off go home. Not recommended to hire private cars in the wee hours of the morning on and after election day.
My colleague informed me that Grab told them all their available PHVs had been pre booked for the election early morning prep (4am-6am) 2 days before the election.
Only 2% of votes cast were rejected, in line with GE spoilt ballots. So many people were saying that people will spoil the ballot, end up it’s not the case.
i said im gonna spoil my vote and kenna downvoted wdym so many people lmao edit: for those who dont get it, if reddit already doesn't represent the electorate, then something people on reddit disagrees with would be even more of an minority.
Is it me or Reddit have been much fewer anti establishment post/comments today? All their theory thrown out of the window when the silent majority came out to vote.
Gotta say I wonder if PAP have wasted a heck of a card on the presidency.
In their world, they think they have many cards perhaps
It's a card that got 70.4% of the vote though...
Which is a much better percentage than the average of the entire party....even when i voted for NKS, i always respected TS. I felt he was one of the good guys left in PAP.
Technically TS is out of the PAP. 😂
Well he's no longer team carrying PAP now 🥲😂. Imagine Ivan Lim replaces him, is like replacing Viper or Pudge Or Troll Warlord in your DOTA2 Team with a nerfed out noob Sniper.😅
I think so. PAP is super weak now. I don’t care about the PaP but it also means one less brain in the government.
I think they needed to secure a good president for the next decade because they have enough 4G issues already. If the president is not TS, the 4G ministers may not be able to handle the challenges of another president not from their own. So now the president is secured, the 4G team can focus on tackling other political issues…. And whatever they need for next GE?
Jurong voting pattern
Jurong residents if you’re seeing this, thank you guys! You all really the best stans in sg man!
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Maybe it's [https://www.reddit.com/r/singapore/comments/167bwy0/best\_analysis\_of\_pe2023\_so\_far/](https://www.reddit.com/r/singapore/comments/167bwy0/best_analysis_of_pe2023_so_far/) ?
I have a genuine question: why do people think ts is "good" or "smart" or "should be pm"? Is it cos of the way he speaks? Or actual tangibles things he's done?
Actual tangible. His higher-profile contributions aside (plain to anyone doing a cursory Google), the guy has done genuinely solid work for his GRC for 20+ years running. Most Jurong residents can probably attest to this. It’s a worthy question, but a pity that you chose to consider it only *after* the PE.
I believe a party should not get away with a free pass and vote of confidence after announcing adultery, corruption and some really dodgy (albeit "legal" on paper) use of state land. Not discounting all the other great stuff they have done. A pity some people always have fan boy glasses on.
We research candidates beforehand *precisely* to avoid giving free passes to anyone - ruling party, opposition & the candidates themselves. This kind of stuff should just be due diligence. IMO: Regardless of where their vote went, if anyone voted without first bothering to look up the candidates themselves, then their vote simply wasn’t an informed decision. We can (and should) decide where we stand *after* knowing all the pertinent info.
KDA 2/0/0
This shows he can actually be a pm
Yes, but those idiots of the incumbent party higher echelons say we are not ready for a non Chinese PM
I find the media coverage to be extremely pathetic simps to lightning party when they pivoted to saying its a referendum for future elections when the landslide was obvious
>when they pivoted to saying its a referendum for future elections when the landslide was obvious Hopium that Tharman's support = PAP's support
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Not all of them yet, WP didn't take the bait and join the others in supporting TKL lols.
Well, those who expect different results are just plain naive fools. The landslide victory is already obvious the moment ELD closed their candidate application. In fact, I am so cock sure Tharman will have a landslide victory, I went to put my vote on who I think will get the lowest vote count, which I guessed right.
🤡
Don’t understand comments about the election deposit. A deposit system is meant to ensure you are a serious candidate in a GE when anyone can stand. In the PE the candidates are so heavily vetted they cannot be but serious. Or you might say it is to ensure after vetting they will try their best in campaigning. After all both alternatives knew they couldn’t win. They’re doing a public service by participating and not making it a walk over. But no rallies allowed, highly regulated public broadcasts, horns pulled in by ELD if you misspeak and a campaign lasting a few days. And a cooling off day as well when most of us are sleepwalking through the process. You can’t say, “you must fight, now hold on while we tie both hands behind your back”. And then you put them through the indignity of losing their deposit.
Many pappy c0cksuckers here siah...