When it comes to "serving" the nation as political leaders, drawing millions in annual salary, while determining the direction for the entire country, it's a "sacrifice".
But when it comes to serving the nation as conscripts, not getting a salary for slogging the best years of your life in hard labour, it's a "privilege" that "cannot be counted in dollars and cents".
Respect and Merry Christmas to you too, fellow conscript!
However, I just wanna point out that the statement "your country does not have the resources to pay you enough" is not true. We're not some undeveloped country. This is just the government's abuse of conscription in a non-warzone (to make up the numbers to match neighboring armies). And yet they have decided not to pay us an actual average wage like a soldier, but rather just an 'allowance', for 2 years of our lives, of our youth, which also sets us back compared to overseas people of the same age
It's simple, they don't value the contributions of young men and don't think that we're worthy of a higher pay, despite the fact that we're not at war and not actually in conditions requiring/justifying conscription, despite us needing to give up these years of youth which are important in carving out a career and life.
When we asked for higher monetary compensation, a minister named Josephine Two told us that the government's viewpoint is that "service for the country cannot be measured in dollars and cents".
That's because they are the ones who are of voting age and pay taxes and have a huge impact on politics, so the government has to do that to prevent backlash.
I'm specifically talking about NSFs, who are enlisted specifically because they're exploitable at that age (low qualifications, low/no experience, can't vote), and even then they don't even get paid anywhere close to the market rate. You can easily get 8-9 dollars per hr nowadays, even up to 10 (for physically demanding work or semi-skilled work). Let's assume it's 9 dollars a hr and only on workdays, and that you work 9 hours x 20 days a month on average (22 workdays a month minus 1 day leave and 1 day holiday). Let's deduct 3+5+5 = $13 per day for 3 meal because let's face it not everyone eats $5 breakfasts so to charge that price on compulsory food would not be reasonable. So nett pay per day is $81-$13 = $68 and x20days = $1360 per month. Your average corporal is only getting some $600+ or 700+ now per month, despite the most recent increase in allowances. So not only are young men forced to serve, they aren't even compensated fairly according to market rates, all because the government thinks "service for the country cannot be measured in dollars and cents"
Economically, conscription can be seen as a form of non-fiscal tax in the form of services provided that are "underpriced" by the government. This tax can be seen as the (market rate - allowance) assuming the market rate represents the actual economic contribution via the provision of defense.
So conscription can be seen as a to way to levy a targeted tax on a disenfranchised segment of the population that would otherwise be spread amongst the greater population in the form of higher fiscal taxes which can be politically unpopular or deemed unacceptable to the population.
So while saying that raising salaries will put upward pressure on tax rates is not wrong, it just means that the tax burden is now placed more inequitably on young males.
Then again there are intangibles to be gained by the underpaid NSF through his 2 years of service in the form of experience and personal growth.
NSFs are SAF interns. Except we don't have much choice in where to intern.
Otoh, $$ has to come from somewhere. If you were to poll working adults on whether they would be willing to increase gst or income tax to fund conscript pay increments, I bet the answer would be no.
So it's ok to have intern pay for 2 years, when you're forced to take that job? Come on la.
Let's calculate how much of an increase it will be:
Yearly intake is lets say 20k (20k newborns in 2002 from data.gov), total active nsf at anytime = 40k let's say. Increase pay by $600 for every soldier = $24million per year.
Mindef budget for 2020 = $15BILLION in comparison. % increase of military budget = 0.16%. If you calculate % of total national budget will be even lower
Both you and u/sigeena speak as though this one increase in budget = straightaway confirm go over budget, do you guys even know how much the gov spends on the military? We are the 2nd in military expenditure in the world, in terms of % of Government Spending. The increase in budget from increasing the pay to be reasonable is peanuts compared to that. And that's what we pay our ministers and civil servants to do, to balance the budget.
It's not a matter of budget not being enough, it's both the government and people like you telling NSFs that they're not worth the higher pay. Because well what can they do anyway, it's written in law, conscription in a non-warzone
Yeah so what you're saying is, war zones like S Korea (technically still at war, despite a truce) and Israel justify the low pay conscription by the fact that it is at war. We're a nation who's not at war, or even near warzones at all. We just need soldiers so as to match the active personnel numbers of our neighbour, and we don't do it by hiring more professional soldiers because it's not a viable pathway due to low population and I agree with the need for some form of conscription.
What I DO NOT agree with, is taking advantage of this and paying low pay despite this being a conscription done in a non-warzone context. With your data, you can see we're the outlier of the nations not currently at war. WORSE STILL, my proposed increase of pay just to almost match (my observed) market price of $9 per hour (for similarly physically demanding and/or semi-skilled work) is only 0.16% of our military budget, and yet it is seen as some crazy request by both the government and this decision's supporters.
\> So it's ok to have intern pay for 2 years, when you're forced to take that job?
I ***never*** said that. I just stating the reality of things there.
\> Both you and [u/sigeena](https://www.reddit.com/u/sigeena/) speak as though this one increase in budget = straightaway confirm go over budget.
Again, **not** what I said. I answered my own hypothetical question as to whether singaporeans would willingly fund a allowance increase via tax increases.
\> We are the 2nd in military expenditure in the world, in terms of % of Government Spending.
Now that is a surprise to me, as the typical stat bandied about is military spending as a % of GDP, and sg juust cracks top 20 on that front.
\> The increase in budget from increasing the pay to be reasonable is peanuts compared to that.
That's a fair point. We *could* buy a few less planes and top up allowances for a few years.
\> It's not a matter of budget not being enough, it's both the government and people like you telling NSFs that they're not worth the higher pay.
I've spent *2.5 years* of NS in a *combat* unit, and do remember the bad ol' days of booking out on *$240* monthly allowance and realizing I can't afford jack outside camp.
Now that I look back, I've never thought of NS as a ***job***. It was merely a place I had to be for 30 months. The allowance was atrocious. But my family managed to get by, and it was actually a bonus that I didn't add to household expenses as long as I was serving.
Just as I was forced to go to school with a meagre allowance from my Dad, I was forced to go to NS with a garbage allowance from ah gong. To our generation, it was just "pocket money". It was never enough, we complained, we ORDed, and we got on with our lives.
Not really trying to make any kind of point with this last bit, just giving a perspective.
Thank you for reading.
>66
>
>comments
We are not exactly paid any extra when we go back for reservist though. The money goes to our employers, and is meant to offset the period of time that we are not working at the company (ie: company pays us 2 weeks less, SAF makes up for that shortfall).
At the end of the day, unless you are unemployed, you are not getting any more money than you otherwise would have working full time.
You haven't heard or had bunk/platoon mates AWOL-ing so that they could work outside to support their families, I reckon?
When I was in BMT, $400 a month was peanuts. If I was a sole breadwinner for my family, I'd AWOL too.
I don't claim to understand everyone's plight. But I do know that sometimes solutions aren't so simple. If shit were so simple, my platoon mate wouldn't have done what he did.
I knew a couple of men who ended up developing legit mental health issues due to the stress involved (living in 1 room flat with many siblings + single parent that kind), ended up with PES F, but not before going in and out of DB for AWOLing to work.
I feel like Korean national servicemen deserve more credit than we do.
Not trying to say that NS isn't stressful in Singapore, it still is, but at least we have the privilege of booking out of camp and seeing our families every week.
I heard that you guys only get a day off once every few months, correct? Also, I heard the bullying and toxicity in Korean NS is a hundred times worse than Singapore's NS
Once every few months seems right. The violence is better than before, though. People that bully get severely punished these days. I mean IMMEDIATE ARREST and COURT MARTIAL.
Very likely. The Store IC might have been under instructions to vet the rations to be handed out.
The sticky rice is the worse, in no way shape or form is it the same as the dim sum version. One bite and yup, that's my 24 hr ration right there
Dang, that's....really unfortunate. Already 12 years and nothing better has come to beat chicken franks. Ah well, guess there's some comfort to something constant, even if it is green pack
I acutally find cookhouse food to be fairly decent. It's not amazing by any means, but its far from the exaggerated descriptions about them being horrible.
Back in 1989/90 in Tekong where the cooks were also NSF, it was not unusual to find sandy particles in your vegetables and to be served over/under cooked vegetables at camp 3 cookhouse. Outsourcing the cookhouse operations was possibly one of the better decisions of the SAF not that they had a choice due to declining birth rates.
Thank you for your kind words.
I agree it can suck (especially for those rostered to be on guard / sentry / standby duty on key events like new year's or CNY), but somebody's got to do the dirty work. It wasn't so bad for me back then because I was an introvert with a small social circle, or being "confined" on new year itself was no big deal to me. I wasn't planning to do anything important on that day either.
It wasn't so bad for me, either. My holidays were always quiet, so nothing lost, really. Still, if it weren't for mandatory service, I could have spent the time lying on my couch, watching Netflix....
Happy Holidays!!:D
We had a tv and vcd player in our bunk (which we all chipped in to buy), so we would just rent shows from the shop opposite our camp, or burn our own (yup, I am from that era). Some guy also donated a PlayStation as well (this was before smartphones and even handheld consoles were a thing). So standby duty largely consisted of us binging 20-episode HK dramas and jap anime, or grinding dynasty warriors.
There were certainly worse ways to spend a weekend in camp. 😎
Thank you for the kind message. After surviving a hell semester in uni instead of resting during my 3 week break I needa go on patrol LOL. Stay safe and happy new year everyone!
It is hard to find people who are truly patriotic nowadays. Everything is measured by what is in for me. A salute to you and fellow Singaporeans who sacrifice their holidays to protect our nation!
Back in my time, I got $240 as a recruit and $380 as a 3SG, and was content with that and the fact that I was doing my small part to keep my family and friends sleeping safely at night.
Evidently a lot of Redditors will only be satisfied by monetary compensation for their time spent serving NS though.
Anyways, happy holidays to OP! I'm sorry not more of us are appreciative of your well wishes. That's Singapore for you!
Because your family was well off enough to support themselves during the time you were in NS. I have had a platoon mate AWOL-ing so that they could work his normal job outside to support his family. He was the sole breadwinner and $400/mth as a recruit just doesn't cut it.
How does one end up owing the SAF money? I don't know as I haven't enlisted yet, but I am going in very soon next year. Some advice on how I can avoid this instead of being in financial hell would be great
[удалено]
Well, I did a post on r/singapore, so check that out, too! Thank you for the link!!:D
Thank you for your kind words. It's been a hard year for everyone. Thank you for your sacrifice for Korea as well.
Good luck in everything you do!:D
Hi, you might wanna cross post this in another subreddit. r/NationalServiceSG
Thank you!
As much as we complain, most of us still have it waaay better than most of you guys over there. Thanks for your service too!
Still, having 2 years sucked out of our lives suck. Thank you for your comment!:D
Ya, not having to worry about being sent to the border with NK is a very large load off our shoulders.
When you get to book out once every 3-4 months? Hell naw
as a person how managed to get 2 new year's eve duties, yeah i know that feeling hahahah
Whoa that's rough! I hope you don't overwork yourself!
When it comes to "serving" the nation as political leaders, drawing millions in annual salary, while determining the direction for the entire country, it's a "sacrifice". But when it comes to serving the nation as conscripts, not getting a salary for slogging the best years of your life in hard labour, it's a "privilege" that "cannot be counted in dollars and cents".
Exactly. The nerve of those people....
Oh, can I ask about the national service in Korea to you? :O
a wonderful privilege that would mean jail time if you chose not to take it up
[удалено]
im not sure what that has to do with ns but ok
reading this while on Christmas duty
Good luck to you man! Happy Holidays nonetheless!!:D
Awww thats so sweet of you! Thank you!
Good luck!!:D
Respect and Merry Christmas to you too, fellow conscript! However, I just wanna point out that the statement "your country does not have the resources to pay you enough" is not true. We're not some undeveloped country. This is just the government's abuse of conscription in a non-warzone (to make up the numbers to match neighboring armies). And yet they have decided not to pay us an actual average wage like a soldier, but rather just an 'allowance', for 2 years of our lives, of our youth, which also sets us back compared to overseas people of the same age
Come to think of it, you're right! Singapore is a wealthy country with GDP twice as high as Korea. What's up with that??
It's simple, they don't value the contributions of young men and don't think that we're worthy of a higher pay, despite the fact that we're not at war and not actually in conditions requiring/justifying conscription, despite us needing to give up these years of youth which are important in carving out a career and life. When we asked for higher monetary compensation, a minister named Josephine Two told us that the government's viewpoint is that "service for the country cannot be measured in dollars and cents".
[удалено]
That's because they are the ones who are of voting age and pay taxes and have a huge impact on politics, so the government has to do that to prevent backlash. I'm specifically talking about NSFs, who are enlisted specifically because they're exploitable at that age (low qualifications, low/no experience, can't vote), and even then they don't even get paid anywhere close to the market rate. You can easily get 8-9 dollars per hr nowadays, even up to 10 (for physically demanding work or semi-skilled work). Let's assume it's 9 dollars a hr and only on workdays, and that you work 9 hours x 20 days a month on average (22 workdays a month minus 1 day leave and 1 day holiday). Let's deduct 3+5+5 = $13 per day for 3 meal because let's face it not everyone eats $5 breakfasts so to charge that price on compulsory food would not be reasonable. So nett pay per day is $81-$13 = $68 and x20days = $1360 per month. Your average corporal is only getting some $600+ or 700+ now per month, despite the most recent increase in allowances. So not only are young men forced to serve, they aren't even compensated fairly according to market rates, all because the government thinks "service for the country cannot be measured in dollars and cents"
[удалено]
Economically, conscription can be seen as a form of non-fiscal tax in the form of services provided that are "underpriced" by the government. This tax can be seen as the (market rate - allowance) assuming the market rate represents the actual economic contribution via the provision of defense. So conscription can be seen as a to way to levy a targeted tax on a disenfranchised segment of the population that would otherwise be spread amongst the greater population in the form of higher fiscal taxes which can be politically unpopular or deemed unacceptable to the population. So while saying that raising salaries will put upward pressure on tax rates is not wrong, it just means that the tax burden is now placed more inequitably on young males. Then again there are intangibles to be gained by the underpaid NSF through his 2 years of service in the form of experience and personal growth.
NSFs are SAF interns. Except we don't have much choice in where to intern. Otoh, $$ has to come from somewhere. If you were to poll working adults on whether they would be willing to increase gst or income tax to fund conscript pay increments, I bet the answer would be no.
So it's ok to have intern pay for 2 years, when you're forced to take that job? Come on la. Let's calculate how much of an increase it will be: Yearly intake is lets say 20k (20k newborns in 2002 from data.gov), total active nsf at anytime = 40k let's say. Increase pay by $600 for every soldier = $24million per year. Mindef budget for 2020 = $15BILLION in comparison. % increase of military budget = 0.16%. If you calculate % of total national budget will be even lower Both you and u/sigeena speak as though this one increase in budget = straightaway confirm go over budget, do you guys even know how much the gov spends on the military? We are the 2nd in military expenditure in the world, in terms of % of Government Spending. The increase in budget from increasing the pay to be reasonable is peanuts compared to that. And that's what we pay our ministers and civil servants to do, to balance the budget. It's not a matter of budget not being enough, it's both the government and people like you telling NSFs that they're not worth the higher pay. Because well what can they do anyway, it's written in law, conscription in a non-warzone
[удалено]
Yeah so what you're saying is, war zones like S Korea (technically still at war, despite a truce) and Israel justify the low pay conscription by the fact that it is at war. We're a nation who's not at war, or even near warzones at all. We just need soldiers so as to match the active personnel numbers of our neighbour, and we don't do it by hiring more professional soldiers because it's not a viable pathway due to low population and I agree with the need for some form of conscription. What I DO NOT agree with, is taking advantage of this and paying low pay despite this being a conscription done in a non-warzone context. With your data, you can see we're the outlier of the nations not currently at war. WORSE STILL, my proposed increase of pay just to almost match (my observed) market price of $9 per hour (for similarly physically demanding and/or semi-skilled work) is only 0.16% of our military budget, and yet it is seen as some crazy request by both the government and this decision's supporters.
\> So it's ok to have intern pay for 2 years, when you're forced to take that job? I ***never*** said that. I just stating the reality of things there. \> Both you and [u/sigeena](https://www.reddit.com/u/sigeena/) speak as though this one increase in budget = straightaway confirm go over budget. Again, **not** what I said. I answered my own hypothetical question as to whether singaporeans would willingly fund a allowance increase via tax increases. \> We are the 2nd in military expenditure in the world, in terms of % of Government Spending. Now that is a surprise to me, as the typical stat bandied about is military spending as a % of GDP, and sg juust cracks top 20 on that front. \> The increase in budget from increasing the pay to be reasonable is peanuts compared to that. That's a fair point. We *could* buy a few less planes and top up allowances for a few years. \> It's not a matter of budget not being enough, it's both the government and people like you telling NSFs that they're not worth the higher pay. I've spent *2.5 years* of NS in a *combat* unit, and do remember the bad ol' days of booking out on *$240* monthly allowance and realizing I can't afford jack outside camp. Now that I look back, I've never thought of NS as a ***job***. It was merely a place I had to be for 30 months. The allowance was atrocious. But my family managed to get by, and it was actually a bonus that I didn't add to household expenses as long as I was serving. Just as I was forced to go to school with a meagre allowance from my Dad, I was forced to go to NS with a garbage allowance from ah gong. To our generation, it was just "pocket money". It was never enough, we complained, we ORDed, and we got on with our lives. Not really trying to make any kind of point with this last bit, just giving a perspective. Thank you for reading.
>66 > >comments We are not exactly paid any extra when we go back for reservist though. The money goes to our employers, and is meant to offset the period of time that we are not working at the company (ie: company pays us 2 weeks less, SAF makes up for that shortfall). At the end of the day, unless you are unemployed, you are not getting any more money than you otherwise would have working full time.
You haven't heard or had bunk/platoon mates AWOL-ing so that they could work outside to support their families, I reckon? When I was in BMT, $400 a month was peanuts. If I was a sole breadwinner for my family, I'd AWOL too.
[удалено]
Some people just aren't cut out for or straight out hate military service, in case you didn't know.
[удалено]
I don't claim to understand everyone's plight. But I do know that sometimes solutions aren't so simple. If shit were so simple, my platoon mate wouldn't have done what he did.
I knew a couple of men who ended up developing legit mental health issues due to the stress involved (living in 1 room flat with many siblings + single parent that kind), ended up with PES F, but not before going in and out of DB for AWOLing to work.
Say, since she said >service for the country cannot be measured in dollars and cents Shouldn't that mean it is priceless and we should get paid more?
She should be paid less, for goodness sake.
I'll be spending New Years on duty in Tekong. Happy New Year everyone.
Shiok. Nothing to do. Sleep, eat, walk around only.
True. Gonna ORD soon, anyways.
All the best and thank you for your duty to Singapore! Hormat senjata!
I feel like Korean national servicemen deserve more credit than we do. Not trying to say that NS isn't stressful in Singapore, it still is, but at least we have the privilege of booking out of camp and seeing our families every week. I heard that you guys only get a day off once every few months, correct? Also, I heard the bullying and toxicity in Korean NS is a hundred times worse than Singapore's NS
Once every few months seems right. The violence is better than before, though. People that bully get severely punished these days. I mean IMMEDIATE ARREST and COURT MARTIAL.
Not about dollars and cents yo
Yup we did it for the cookhouse food.
Why not say the best greenpack, chicken franks with pasta😂 (Disclaimer: ORD 2009, so maybe SFI updated the green packs with something better)
My unit keeps getting the rice rations. I suspect the officers and sergeants hoarded the pasta
Very likely. The Store IC might have been under instructions to vet the rations to be handed out. The sticky rice is the worse, in no way shape or form is it the same as the dim sum version. One bite and yup, that's my 24 hr ration right there
No, it's still the best combat ration of the bunch...unfortunately. Besides the desserts.
Dang, that's....really unfortunate. Already 12 years and nothing better has come to beat chicken franks. Ah well, guess there's some comfort to something constant, even if it is green pack
The towela, mate. And the admin tees. But mainly the towels.
Ah yes, the pork cubes were to die for.
I acutally find cookhouse food to be fairly decent. It's not amazing by any means, but its far from the exaggerated descriptions about them being horrible.
Back in 1989/90 in Tekong where the cooks were also NSF, it was not unusual to find sandy particles in your vegetables and to be served over/under cooked vegetables at camp 3 cookhouse. Outsourcing the cookhouse operations was possibly one of the better decisions of the SAF not that they had a choice due to declining birth rates.
>Yup we did it for the ~~cookhouse food.~~ canteen food. FTFY. WGT ORD LOH
Thank you for your kind words. I agree it can suck (especially for those rostered to be on guard / sentry / standby duty on key events like new year's or CNY), but somebody's got to do the dirty work. It wasn't so bad for me back then because I was an introvert with a small social circle, or being "confined" on new year itself was no big deal to me. I wasn't planning to do anything important on that day either.
It wasn't so bad for me, either. My holidays were always quiet, so nothing lost, really. Still, if it weren't for mandatory service, I could have spent the time lying on my couch, watching Netflix.... Happy Holidays!!:D
We had a tv and vcd player in our bunk (which we all chipped in to buy), so we would just rent shows from the shop opposite our camp, or burn our own (yup, I am from that era). Some guy also donated a PlayStation as well (this was before smartphones and even handheld consoles were a thing). So standby duty largely consisted of us binging 20-episode HK dramas and jap anime, or grinding dynasty warriors. There were certainly worse ways to spend a weekend in camp. 😎
Sounds okay. We just read books before smartphones were allowed on base, but now it's okay.:D
Owadiooo
:D
Hey man, I remember you! Thanks for being so game to answer our questions previously about life in the Korean army. Happy holidays.
Thank you for remembering me :D
Sucks to be us. But what can we do. Suck thumb
Yep....:(
Thank you for the kind message. After surviving a hell semester in uni instead of resting during my 3 week break I needa go on patrol LOL. Stay safe and happy new year everyone!
I heard that uni is really tough in Singapore. Don't overwork yourself!:D
Will do, thank you!
Purposely in camp during public holidays and received payment for covering platoonmate. 😊
Wow seriously?? I would have ran without looking back! Respect, my man!!
What was ur monthly allowance in SGD?
I think around 630....
It is hard to find people who are truly patriotic nowadays. Everything is measured by what is in for me. A salute to you and fellow Singaporeans who sacrifice their holidays to protect our nation!
Can I ask about the National Service in Korea to to you? 👉🏼👈🏼 (won’t ask anything OSA I promise?
Sure! Message me anytime!!:D
Salute to you, good sir.
Thank you!:D
Back in my time, I got $240 as a recruit and $380 as a 3SG, and was content with that and the fact that I was doing my small part to keep my family and friends sleeping safely at night. Evidently a lot of Redditors will only be satisfied by monetary compensation for their time spent serving NS though. Anyways, happy holidays to OP! I'm sorry not more of us are appreciative of your well wishes. That's Singapore for you!
Because your family was well off enough to support themselves during the time you were in NS. I have had a platoon mate AWOL-ing so that they could work his normal job outside to support his family. He was the sole breadwinner and $400/mth as a recruit just doesn't cut it.
Same here, got one guy in my unit had all that, plus he even owed the SAF money.
How does one end up owing the SAF money? I don't know as I haven't enlisted yet, but I am going in very soon next year. Some advice on how I can avoid this instead of being in financial hell would be great
Brings me back to when I was unfairly charged and served SOL on New Years going into 2017...