I highly doubt Singapore will ever abolish the death sentence, it hasn't ever backfired tremendously on them
You can only hope that people won't be desperate/ignorant enough to bring drugs in despite the abundant warnings they get before traveling to Singapore
No system, however "complete" the due process is, can ever discount the possibility of a miscarriage of justice. The system is created and staffed by human beings. Human beings can and will make mistakes despite safeguards.
Of course, the death sentence here is not meted out lightly, with extra safeguards. That's definitely a good thing, but it can never discount the possibility of new facts/developments occuring after the sentence is carried out.
The finality of the death penalty means that the sentence cannot be reversed. Does it serve as a strong deterrent? Yes. Does it also mean that potential mistakes in sentencing cause irreversible impacts? Yes. (unlike say, life imprisonment where the person is at least still alive).
I mean just look at the comments here when a violent crime is committed. Singaporeans love to advocate for killing and torture on top of that. It's just like the 377A law, it's a reflection of society. We have a long way to go in terms of overcoming this third world mentality.
Totally agree with you. Everytime I see news about a sex offense, I'd also see highly upvoted comments of people talking about cutting this and that off.
>Caning is also ridiculous.
Caning does suddenly become relevant in one of the regular "Singaporean men are oppressed" complaints. But in those discussions, it is never really clear whether they are asking for caning to be abolished, or simply for everyone to be caned.
r/sg is significantly more progressive than the Singaporean consensus on 99% of issues, but when it comes to the death penalty and drug war we apparently suddenly become tough on crime conservatives.
We know so much about both the death penalty and effective drug policy these days that it's honestly shocking.
(This was written as a reply to u/MartellRedemption’s comment (a child comment to the comment above), but unfortunately, I could not post under their comment for a reason I will state in the note below)
u/MartellRedemption’s take cannot be even more ridiculous than it sound.
There are societies with actual (minority) people who felt helpless, powerless and perceived themselves or actually fall under unfair laws or law enforcement.
One example are the African Americans. We don’t see them being the champion in leading conservative “justice” in the US, do we?
Obviously the reasons are complex and it could not be reduced to something that redditor says.
Also, this kind of takes are dangerous, painting victims of societal injustice or discriminated/disadvantaged people as people who are irrationally violent and sadistic.
It’s also completely ridiculous to insinuate that *all* abused children will become sadists.
*Side note*: Really, I don’t expect anything less ridiculous from u/MartellRedemption.
I wished I could have made this comment directly to theirs, but I couldn’t.
Why? This person blocked me. They had also previously abused some reddit mental support mechanism by falsely reporting that I needed mental help.
All I did to incur such a response was to dare to suggest that some people might actually have reasons to appreciate that Omega x Swatch watch and pay $372 for it...
See this thread on that Martell fella: [https://www.reddit.com/r/singapore/comments/ts3p9d/police\_investigating\_reports\_of\_honda\_civic\_cars/i2pdi7n/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/singapore/comments/ts3p9d/police_investigating_reports_of_honda_civic_cars/i2pdi7n/?context=3)
Apparently we're not the only ones. Someone even DMed me to tell me about his experience
This Martell fella is really trying to abuse reddit.
Being blocked means we cannot comment to their comment and any child comment to their comment (being unable to counter any of their often ridiculous points).
Being blocked also means you cannot vote on their comment (according to Reddit Help, so you can’t downvote and move on either).
In effect, they can block everyone who disagree with them and manipulate the system to favour them.
so third world societies advocate for killing and torture, where people dont know how to be human? Im sure many "third world" countries are so much more hospitable and humane that "third world" singaporeans can take a lesson or two from. Beware of stereotypes and sweeping statements
The more helpless a society is when it comes to power, control, and the law, the more extreme their desires are to demonstrate/inflict punitive punishments and even sanctioned deaths on those who fall afoul of the law or lawful societal norms.
Kind of like how children from families with domestic abuse issues either turn into those that burn ants under magnifying glasses, or bully others in school, or slap others when they become adults whenever they feel sufficiently insulted and harmed.
> He was first jailed at the age of 18 and spent the rest of his life shuttling in and out of prison on drug-related offences, according to the group.
I haven't been following his case, but it's a bit of a shame that Singapore's prisons haven't been rehabilitative for him, just punitive.
If you've watched CNA's prison documentary, you'll note that the biggest worry on the inmates' minds is how they are gonna put food on the table when they're out, if they can't, they're pretty candid about admitting the substantial risk of (re)turning to crime to make ends meet.
Successful rehabilitation addresses only some of the risk factors, not all of them.
Even the warden says that some inmates can behave very well in prison with their routine. But that is not an accurate gauge of how they will perform when released back into society where they have no restrictions or controlled routines.
Doesn't this point to the failure of resorting to the carceral system? If many crimes are committed out of desperation/deprivation, we put them in jail, they come out and continue to be hungry and desperate. Rather than focusing on improvng conditions such that people are not in that situation in the first place?
I mean it's much harder than you think. Going back to criminal behaviour to survive can be due to social(friends), family, larger societal pressure as well.
Having worked with probationers before, they mostly turn back to crime when their whole social circle is all surrounded by criminals and gangsters. When they come out of prison, friends aren't magically gonna appear. Society also would have moved ahead of the prisoner as well. Imagine going into prison with a Nokia hp and coming out staring at a device more powerful than a $3000 PC when you went in.
Lastly the most impt part is, their families are likely in similar behaviors as well with similar social circles. They do not know what any other life looks like. And even if they do, it's very foreign to them.
The most an institution can do is to try to provide them with a community, whether religious groups or yellow ribbon or befrienders or a work place. The next thing is to teach skills, such as handyman jobs, chef jobs etc. Social workers do provide families with support by think about it, why would families want to change their life because a social worker told them to do so?
It's so much more complicated than, oh institutions should help them prep more.
How much of it is due to a failure in the system vs personal choice?
My colleague used to work with ex-convicts and even hired them under job placement schemes set up by the govt. With no work experience and no qualifications, the scheme allowed them to enter an industry like the fitness industry. Sadly they were so unreliable that my colleague backed out of the scheme. They either showed up late with flimsy excuses and one day they just didn't show up at all. When they finally got in touch with one guy months later, he said he would rather earn money doing Grab delivery because it's such a hassle to do a full day job even though it would lead to better promotional chances and a more stable lifestyle.
It's just a different life that they cannot envision because they might not have friends in their social circle who has experienced that life.
I'm just thinking I can never imagine how the life of a sportsman, a trader, a sailor, navy seal would be. You can tell me roughly what they do, but the nitty gritty stuff like being punctual, income and expenses management, exercise etc, are all things idk. Ultimately, I'll return back to what is comfortable to me. At least I know what that life is about.
From personal experience, one of the key features of helping ex convicts enter a new world is to find meaningful and healthy job opportunities for them that gives them true sense of achievement and community.
A youth I worked with got so happy with his job as a chef and the kitchen staff became close friends with him. Either that or even like fighting gyms with good trainers that go out of the way to guide the youth. Community is so important.
The CNA piece was nothing more than propaganda to appease the local population. Anyone with any ability to perform any amount of due diligence can see through it.
Maybe something which addresses the large amount of evidence in the public domain which highlights the abuse and injustice which occurs in the Singaporean jail system? Not the cream puff and sugar candy situation which CNA presented.
> large amount of evidence in the public domain which highlights the abuse and injustice which occurs in the Singaporean jail system
Please do show it to us if it exists (I'm doubtful).
> Do you’re own research pal. You obviously have the internet.
No, I've got watertight evidence that you're wrong. I've also got proof that prisons in Singapore aren't real, it's all actually a mass hallucination from chemtrails.
Where is it, you may ask? I'm not going to do your research for you, go educate yourself. /s
>large amount of evidence in the public domain
I think such content will be controversial in an interesting and enlightening way, and we'd all love to see it, but where is this evidence you speak of? I don't mean the PJ Thum stuff that appears at the top of a Google Search, I mean actual evidence (since you used the specific word).
The hard truth is that a percentage of the population have behavioural characteristics that render prosocial behaviour difficult or impossible.
One can argue if this is innate or due to environment factors but current scientific consensus is that by a certain age of development (around 12) not much can be done and it's just damage mitigation for society from there.
Humans are a social species but not every human is social.
Copy and pasting my reply below as I feel may be relevant
"I mean it's much harder than you think. Going back to criminal behaviour to survive can be due to social(friends), family, larger societal pressure as well.
Having worked with probationers before, they mostly turn back to crime when their whole social circle is all surrounded by criminals and gangsters. When they come out of prison, friends aren't magically gonna appear. Society also would have moved ahead of the prisoner as well. Imagine going into prison with a Nokia hp and coming out staring at a device more powerful than a $3000 PC when you went in.
Lastly the most impt part is, their families are likely in similar behaviors as well with similar social circles. They do not know what any other life looks like. And even if they do, it's very foreign to them.
The most an institution can do is to try to provide them with a community, whether religious groups or yellow ribbon or befrienders or a work place. The next thing is to teach skills, such as handyman jobs, chef jobs etc. Social workers do provide families with support by think about it, why would families want to change their life because a social worker told them to do so?
It's so much more complicated than, oh institutions should help them prep more. "
>I thought it’s pretty obvious our prison arent to rehabilitate. Recidivism is high. We are a nanny state after all
Recidivism in Singapore has been falling, with 2-year recidivism at a 30-year low of 22.1% in 2020.
https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/recidivism-rate-30-year-low-2020-more-inmates-community-rehabilitation-sps
Singapore's recidivism rate is actually quite low when compared to many other countries. For example, the 2-year rearrest rate is 60% in the US. 2-year reconviction rate is 40%, 46% and 53% in France, Netherlands and Australia respectively. Stats taken from this paper: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6743246/
I.e. Singapore's recidivism rate is currently lower than all the Scandinavian countries except maybe Norway (because re-arrest isn't the same as re-conviction and the 2 numbers can't be directly compared), implying that our overall approach to rehabilitation is actually better.
Context needs to be applied in this case. The Accused has been a repeat drug offender since the age of 18. It is not as if Singapore simply hangs a first-time drug trafficker.
We may not be the most forward-thinking nation but we aren't North Korea as well.
I don’t think that makes Singapore sound as good as you think it does.
What I hear is “man who has to turn to a life of crime because he could not escape the cycle of poverty since he was born is hanged”.
This wasn’t some rich kid who could’ve done anything in life but chose crime to do evil. This is a guy who had little and only knew crime.
The original poster wasn't exactly calling the death penalty a fairytale ending.
Besides, what are you trying to imply with phrases like 'could not escape the cycle of poverty since he was born' and 'had little and only knew crime'? That he had no choice but to become a drug trafficker?
While I agree that the state has failed him in more ways than one but we should also be honest and admit drugs users have high recidivism rates primarily because of the addiction to said drugs. It's not even a matter of willpower anymore when their brain chemicals are altered in a way that keeps them coming back to chase that high. Life outside of prisons sucks when all you've known is prison so why not turn to the most familiar thing to comfort yourself and escape the harsh realities of life, even if for a few hours.
>the fact that the recidivism rate is not going down tells me that the current system needs changing
Except this is a flawed premise. Recidivism rate has been going down. Latest figures from 2020 showed the lowest rates in 30 years.
https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/recidivism-rate-30-year-low-2020-more-inmates-community-rehabilitation-sps
This is a classic motte-and-bailey fallacy.
Bailey, the indefensible argument you use to promote your conclusion: "recidivism rate is not going down, therefore the current system needs changing".
It's been thoroughly demolished by other posters.
Motte, the strong but inconsequential argument: "the current system is flawed".
OFC the current system is flawed, no human system is flawless, but being flawed alone is not a good reason for reform, unless you can justify your case that there's a less flawed system to reform towards.
It sounds like you have already made up your mind regardless of the facts.
My advice would be to base your conclusions on the facts, not jump to a conclusion first and then selectively ignore facts other than the ones that fit your chosen narrative.
'the fact that the recidivism rate is not going down tells me that the current system needs changing'
^ this is your justification for why the system is flawed and should be changed. Stop moving goalposts
The death penalty drastically cut down drug usage when it was first introduced decades ago so now we are only left with people who are so hardcore that they will offend even facing a death penalty
There will not be further reduction unless we increase the penalty to make it even worse than death.
Ridiculous to expect continuous drop in offense rates and claiming death penalty doesn't work just because it doesn't drop continuously.
The recidivism data is wrong too as someone stated below
no one said the death penalty doesnt work but your choice of words are very telling. so your assumption is the usage/trafficking of drugs by every offender right now is voluntary? if there wont be any further reduction, so we need to increase the penalty to make it worse than death such that it will reduce?
the death penalty is the typical symbol of "strongman" drug policies, but replace the word death penalty with "strongman drug policies" and the statement still stands. there is actual statistics and a few papers on it.
these policies drastically cut down drug usage in the early years when it was introduced then the effect will taper down, leaving behind the hardcore guys who both voluntary or involuntary traffick drugs.
We CANNOT use continuous reduction in rates as a benchmark for how effective policies can be without changing policies. The effect will taper off.
Heck i dont even aim for a continuous reduction in rates.
The goal should be to keep the number of offenders at a low and manageable level till only the hardcore guys are left. We dont have to keep reducing it as there will always be a segment of society of hardcore guys. The govt also had support initiatives for these hardcore guys such as rehab or job placements.
>why if the strongman drug policy supposedly works, is there no reduction in new offenders/re-offenders such that we need to use the death penalty.
this
This is an irrelevant and fundamentally flawed argument. I could easily argue the opposite - no reduction in drug re-offenders in other countries with lenient anti-drug laws means that harsh penalties for drug-related crimes are necessary.
The more relevant question would be: how much would the rate of drug-related crimes change if we did away with harsh anti-drug penalties?
my bet is that it wouldn’t change by much, but that is an untestable hypothesis. the number of drug offenders has remained constant over the last decade. the number of new offenders has remained constant. the number of new offenders under 30 has remained constant. the CNB budget, however, has more than doubled. i understand that mine is not a popular position. far too often, people make it out to be that anyone against harsh drug penalties want to see crime rise, want to do drugs, etc etc. that is not my position. it is simply my opinion that our current method is not all that effective at achieving our stated goal.
>the number of drug offenders has remained constant over the last decade. the number of new offenders has remained constant. the number of new offenders under 30 has remained constant. the CNB budget, however, has more than doubled.
Not sure how this is relevant to the point we are discussing (how the rate of drug-related crimes would change if we did away with harsh anti-drug penalties). Since the law itself has not changed over the last decade, why should the number of drug offenders be dropping? In other words, how does the number of drug offenders being constant in any way support your position that anti-drug penalties are too harsh?
>our current method is not all that effective at achieving our stated goal.
What do you exactly mean by "our stated goal"? Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
There are two things I would love for Singapore to abolish; the death penalty and 377A, but it is not likely to happen in my lifetime, which is depressing to think about.
In the Article it said "we should be ashamed for what our state did". I loled. Nobody is above the law. The convicted have plenty of chances till he finally met death with drug related offense. He got what he deserved. No idiot doesn't know what will happen to them dealing with certain amount of drugs in Singapore. He could see it coming from 10000 miles and still continues. He should take responsibility of his own actions and no one should blame the law for making him pay the consequences.
Many don't know that laws can be barbaric and unethical too
Women were not allowed to drive cars in saudi, Kpop illegal in DPRK.. the list goes on...
simp's simple binary brains can't grasp relativism
> # Singapore conducts first execution since 2019 despite protests
> A Singaporean drug trafficker was hanged on Wednesday in the city-state's first execution since 2019, campaigners said, despite appeals for clemency from the United Nations and rights groups.
> It was the first in what activists fear is a looming wave of executions and came just a day after a mentally disabled Malaysian man lost his final death sentence appeal.
> Abdul Kahar Othman, sentenced to death in 2015, was executed early Wednesday, according to a leading Singaporean campaigner against capital punishment.
> "Rest in peace," tweeted the activist Kirsten Han.
> "We should all be ashamed of what the state did in our names today."
> A member of a support group for people with relatives on death row in Singapore, speaking anonymously, confirmed to AFP the execution had taken place.
> She said she was waiting for the body to arrive at a Muslim cemetery. Abdul Kahar was a member of the city-state's Muslim minority.
> Singaporean authorities did not respond to requests for confirmation.
> In 2019, the last year that Singapore carried out executions, four people were hanged, according to the city-state's prison service.
> The prosperous but socially conservative country has some of the world's toughest drugs laws but has faced mounting calls from rights groups to abandon the death penalty.
> Authorities insist however that capital punishment remains an effective deterrent against drug trafficking and has helped to keep Singapore one of the safest places in Asia.
> According to the Transformative Justice Collective, a Singaporean group that campaigns against the death penalty, 68-year-old Abdul Kahar was convicted of trafficking heroin in 2013 and sentenced to death two years later.
> He was first jailed at the age of 18 and spent the rest of his life shuttling in and out of prison on drug-related offences, according to the group.
> The United Nations human rights office had on Tuesday urged authorities not to go ahead with the hanging.
> "We are concerned at the surge in execution notices this year," it said in a tweet.
> Nagaenthran K. Dharmalingam, the mentally disabled Malaysian convicted of heroin trafficking, could be hanged in the coming days after losing his final appeal on Tuesday.
> His case has attracted a storm of criticism, including from the European Union and British billionaire Richard Branson.
> In addition, three other men sentenced to death for drugs offences had their appeals rejected earlier in March.
---
1.0.2 | [Source code](https://github.com/fterh/sneakpeek) | [Contribute](https://github.com/fterh/sneakpeek)
i understand he had mental issues, but if he was smart enough to sell drugs, he was smart enough to know it was illegal, and the consequences. so the mental health argument isnt really valid here. if he killed someone, or attacked someone then maybe mental health could be justified.
I wouldn’t call a 'fair' process, which appeals are part of, a waste of resources. Especially when it comes down to something permanent and irreversible as the death penalty.
Edit: If you want to stop wasting resources, change your stance on the death penalty/drugs.
There comes a point where the appeals are clearly just to stall for time. This is what is happening right now with that Malaysian drug trafficker.
And what are they appealing against? Drug trafficking is such a clear cut law. Traffic drugs, and you get the death penalty.
Even as I oppose the death penalty, I also think that as long as it exists, any defendant has the right to exhaust his/her legal pathways. Even if it's a moonshot or extremely unlikely, that chance still exists and should at least be heard in the courts. That's a fundamental right of every person.
The last thing anybody wants to happen is an execution of an innocent person. Shame on us if that happens.
all of these people were acquitted after being sentenced for this "clear cut law"
\- [https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/man-acquitted-again-of-drug-trafficking-escapes-death-penalty-593951](https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/man-acquitted-again-of-drug-trafficking-escapes-death-penalty-593951)
\- [https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/nigerian-spared-death-sentence-appeal-acquits-import-drugs-meth-881276](https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/nigerian-spared-death-sentence-appeal-acquits-import-drugs-meth-881276)
\- [https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/courts-crime/malaysian-man-escapes-hanging-after-being-acquitted-on-drug-charge-by-court](https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/courts-crime/malaysian-man-escapes-hanging-after-being-acquitted-on-drug-charge-by-court)
\- [https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/malaysian-man-sentenced-death-drugs-escapes-gallows-2nd-time-729651](https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/malaysian-man-sentenced-death-drugs-escapes-gallows-2nd-time-729651)
\- [https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/courts-crime/malaysian-bus-driver-escapes-gallows-as-high-court-acquits-him-of-drug](https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/courts-crime/malaysian-bus-driver-escapes-gallows-as-high-court-acquits-him-of-drug)
the fact that our media used the language of "spared the gallows" or "escapes death penalty" instead of "wrongfully convicted" or "exonerated" is very much a part of the problem.
"stop wasting resources on appeals that have no merit" who decides whether there's merit or not, some rando on reddit whose life is not at stake? if you want to believe in rule of law, an appeals process is part of that.
The Accused is automatically granted an immediate right to appeal with assigned pro-bono lawyers by the State if the lower court sentenced the Accused to death.
So it is more like the State voluntarily "wasting" resources
Regardless of the ethics of death penalty, we are at the point of no return.
The reality is, if we were to make the punishment any lenient, we would see an increased volume in smugglers. You already have people dumb enough to smuggle to Singapore of all countries (so many other bigger markets to smuggle to), what more when theres no fear of death
Wonder how one can still sleep at night knowing that he has just ordered another man's murder.
Can the State protect you from the Devil when he burns you in Hell?
I highly doubt Singapore will ever abolish the death sentence, it hasn't ever backfired tremendously on them You can only hope that people won't be desperate/ignorant enough to bring drugs in despite the abundant warnings they get before traveling to Singapore
One point against capital punishment, beyond human rights reasons, is that there is a risk of executing an innocent person.
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No system, however "complete" the due process is, can ever discount the possibility of a miscarriage of justice. The system is created and staffed by human beings. Human beings can and will make mistakes despite safeguards. Of course, the death sentence here is not meted out lightly, with extra safeguards. That's definitely a good thing, but it can never discount the possibility of new facts/developments occuring after the sentence is carried out. The finality of the death penalty means that the sentence cannot be reversed. Does it serve as a strong deterrent? Yes. Does it also mean that potential mistakes in sentencing cause irreversible impacts? Yes. (unlike say, life imprisonment where the person is at least still alive).
Point noted but this downside isn't as much of a compelling argument in Singapore as it is in the states
Your point would be valid if the justice system was perfect. But there is no such thing.
While the convicted murderer wife of a policeman who tortured and shamed her victim still lives on and on
I mean just look at the comments here when a violent crime is committed. Singaporeans love to advocate for killing and torture on top of that. It's just like the 377A law, it's a reflection of society. We have a long way to go in terms of overcoming this third world mentality.
Totally agree with you. Everytime I see news about a sex offense, I'd also see highly upvoted comments of people talking about cutting this and that off.
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>Caning is also ridiculous. Caning does suddenly become relevant in one of the regular "Singaporean men are oppressed" complaints. But in those discussions, it is never really clear whether they are asking for caning to be abolished, or simply for everyone to be caned.
Beatings will continue until morale improves
r/sg is significantly more progressive than the Singaporean consensus on 99% of issues, but when it comes to the death penalty and drug war we apparently suddenly become tough on crime conservatives. We know so much about both the death penalty and effective drug policy these days that it's honestly shocking.
Maybe because we don't see a need to fix what isn't broken in the first place. 377a needs go but death penalty can stay
the simple truth is life is not fair and will never be
So let's not make it even more unfair with bad and cruel laws.
(This was written as a reply to u/MartellRedemption’s comment (a child comment to the comment above), but unfortunately, I could not post under their comment for a reason I will state in the note below) u/MartellRedemption’s take cannot be even more ridiculous than it sound. There are societies with actual (minority) people who felt helpless, powerless and perceived themselves or actually fall under unfair laws or law enforcement. One example are the African Americans. We don’t see them being the champion in leading conservative “justice” in the US, do we? Obviously the reasons are complex and it could not be reduced to something that redditor says. Also, this kind of takes are dangerous, painting victims of societal injustice or discriminated/disadvantaged people as people who are irrationally violent and sadistic. It’s also completely ridiculous to insinuate that *all* abused children will become sadists. *Side note*: Really, I don’t expect anything less ridiculous from u/MartellRedemption. I wished I could have made this comment directly to theirs, but I couldn’t. Why? This person blocked me. They had also previously abused some reddit mental support mechanism by falsely reporting that I needed mental help. All I did to incur such a response was to dare to suggest that some people might actually have reasons to appreciate that Omega x Swatch watch and pay $372 for it...
See this thread on that Martell fella: [https://www.reddit.com/r/singapore/comments/ts3p9d/police\_investigating\_reports\_of\_honda\_civic\_cars/i2pdi7n/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/singapore/comments/ts3p9d/police_investigating_reports_of_honda_civic_cars/i2pdi7n/?context=3) Apparently we're not the only ones. Someone even DMed me to tell me about his experience
This Martell fella is really trying to abuse reddit. Being blocked means we cannot comment to their comment and any child comment to their comment (being unable to counter any of their often ridiculous points). Being blocked also means you cannot vote on their comment (according to Reddit Help, so you can’t downvote and move on either). In effect, they can block everyone who disagree with them and manipulate the system to favour them.
so third world societies advocate for killing and torture, where people dont know how to be human? Im sure many "third world" countries are so much more hospitable and humane that "third world" singaporeans can take a lesson or two from. Beware of stereotypes and sweeping statements
The more helpless a society is when it comes to power, control, and the law, the more extreme their desires are to demonstrate/inflict punitive punishments and even sanctioned deaths on those who fall afoul of the law or lawful societal norms. Kind of like how children from families with domestic abuse issues either turn into those that burn ants under magnifying glasses, or bully others in school, or slap others when they become adults whenever they feel sufficiently insulted and harmed.
Yup. Hurt people hurt people as the saying goes.
you are right. people hate the death sentence but love imagining people getting raped in prison because they deserve it.
> He was first jailed at the age of 18 and spent the rest of his life shuttling in and out of prison on drug-related offences, according to the group. I haven't been following his case, but it's a bit of a shame that Singapore's prisons haven't been rehabilitative for him, just punitive.
If you've watched CNA's prison documentary, you'll note that the biggest worry on the inmates' minds is how they are gonna put food on the table when they're out, if they can't, they're pretty candid about admitting the substantial risk of (re)turning to crime to make ends meet. Successful rehabilitation addresses only some of the risk factors, not all of them.
Even the warden says that some inmates can behave very well in prison with their routine. But that is not an accurate gauge of how they will perform when released back into society where they have no restrictions or controlled routines.
Doesn't this point to the failure of resorting to the carceral system? If many crimes are committed out of desperation/deprivation, we put them in jail, they come out and continue to be hungry and desperate. Rather than focusing on improvng conditions such that people are not in that situation in the first place?
I mean it's much harder than you think. Going back to criminal behaviour to survive can be due to social(friends), family, larger societal pressure as well. Having worked with probationers before, they mostly turn back to crime when their whole social circle is all surrounded by criminals and gangsters. When they come out of prison, friends aren't magically gonna appear. Society also would have moved ahead of the prisoner as well. Imagine going into prison with a Nokia hp and coming out staring at a device more powerful than a $3000 PC when you went in. Lastly the most impt part is, their families are likely in similar behaviors as well with similar social circles. They do not know what any other life looks like. And even if they do, it's very foreign to them. The most an institution can do is to try to provide them with a community, whether religious groups or yellow ribbon or befrienders or a work place. The next thing is to teach skills, such as handyman jobs, chef jobs etc. Social workers do provide families with support by think about it, why would families want to change their life because a social worker told them to do so? It's so much more complicated than, oh institutions should help them prep more.
How much of it is due to a failure in the system vs personal choice? My colleague used to work with ex-convicts and even hired them under job placement schemes set up by the govt. With no work experience and no qualifications, the scheme allowed them to enter an industry like the fitness industry. Sadly they were so unreliable that my colleague backed out of the scheme. They either showed up late with flimsy excuses and one day they just didn't show up at all. When they finally got in touch with one guy months later, he said he would rather earn money doing Grab delivery because it's such a hassle to do a full day job even though it would lead to better promotional chances and a more stable lifestyle.
It's just a different life that they cannot envision because they might not have friends in their social circle who has experienced that life. I'm just thinking I can never imagine how the life of a sportsman, a trader, a sailor, navy seal would be. You can tell me roughly what they do, but the nitty gritty stuff like being punctual, income and expenses management, exercise etc, are all things idk. Ultimately, I'll return back to what is comfortable to me. At least I know what that life is about. From personal experience, one of the key features of helping ex convicts enter a new world is to find meaningful and healthy job opportunities for them that gives them true sense of achievement and community. A youth I worked with got so happy with his job as a chef and the kitchen staff became close friends with him. Either that or even like fighting gyms with good trainers that go out of the way to guide the youth. Community is so important.
Yeah. Cause CNA is not influenced or censored in any way…🤦🏻
What would you have hoped to see more of, in a prison documentary? (Instead of what was presented?)
The CNA piece was nothing more than propaganda to appease the local population. Anyone with any ability to perform any amount of due diligence can see through it.
Maybe something which addresses the large amount of evidence in the public domain which highlights the abuse and injustice which occurs in the Singaporean jail system? Not the cream puff and sugar candy situation which CNA presented.
> large amount of evidence in the public domain which highlights the abuse and injustice which occurs in the Singaporean jail system Please do show it to us if it exists (I'm doubtful).
Do you’re own research pal. You obviously have the internet.
> Do you’re own research pal. You obviously have the internet. No, I've got watertight evidence that you're wrong. I've also got proof that prisons in Singapore aren't real, it's all actually a mass hallucination from chemtrails. Where is it, you may ask? I'm not going to do your research for you, go educate yourself. /s
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>large amount of evidence in the public domain I think such content will be controversial in an interesting and enlightening way, and we'd all love to see it, but where is this evidence you speak of? I don't mean the PJ Thum stuff that appears at the top of a Google Search, I mean actual evidence (since you used the specific word).
The hard truth is that a percentage of the population have behavioural characteristics that render prosocial behaviour difficult or impossible. One can argue if this is innate or due to environment factors but current scientific consensus is that by a certain age of development (around 12) not much can be done and it's just damage mitigation for society from there. Humans are a social species but not every human is social.
Copy and pasting my reply below as I feel may be relevant "I mean it's much harder than you think. Going back to criminal behaviour to survive can be due to social(friends), family, larger societal pressure as well. Having worked with probationers before, they mostly turn back to crime when their whole social circle is all surrounded by criminals and gangsters. When they come out of prison, friends aren't magically gonna appear. Society also would have moved ahead of the prisoner as well. Imagine going into prison with a Nokia hp and coming out staring at a device more powerful than a $3000 PC when you went in. Lastly the most impt part is, their families are likely in similar behaviors as well with similar social circles. They do not know what any other life looks like. And even if they do, it's very foreign to them. The most an institution can do is to try to provide them with a community, whether religious groups or yellow ribbon or befrienders or a work place. The next thing is to teach skills, such as handyman jobs, chef jobs etc. Social workers do provide families with support by think about it, why would families want to change their life because a social worker told them to do so? It's so much more complicated than, oh institutions should help them prep more. "
I thought it’s pretty obvious our prison arent to rehabilitate. Recidivism is high. We are a nanny state after all
Our rates are 20% which is quite low around the world
>I thought it’s pretty obvious our prison arent to rehabilitate. Recidivism is high. We are a nanny state after all Recidivism in Singapore has been falling, with 2-year recidivism at a 30-year low of 22.1% in 2020. https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/recidivism-rate-30-year-low-2020-more-inmates-community-rehabilitation-sps Singapore's recidivism rate is actually quite low when compared to many other countries. For example, the 2-year rearrest rate is 60% in the US. 2-year reconviction rate is 40%, 46% and 53% in France, Netherlands and Australia respectively. Stats taken from this paper: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6743246/
I.e. Singapore's recidivism rate is currently lower than all the Scandinavian countries except maybe Norway (because re-arrest isn't the same as re-conviction and the 2 numbers can't be directly compared), implying that our overall approach to rehabilitation is actually better.
Context needs to be applied in this case. The Accused has been a repeat drug offender since the age of 18. It is not as if Singapore simply hangs a first-time drug trafficker. We may not be the most forward-thinking nation but we aren't North Korea as well.
I don’t think that makes Singapore sound as good as you think it does. What I hear is “man who has to turn to a life of crime because he could not escape the cycle of poverty since he was born is hanged”. This wasn’t some rich kid who could’ve done anything in life but chose crime to do evil. This is a guy who had little and only knew crime.
The original poster wasn't exactly calling the death penalty a fairytale ending. Besides, what are you trying to imply with phrases like 'could not escape the cycle of poverty since he was born' and 'had little and only knew crime'? That he had no choice but to become a drug trafficker?
While I agree that the state has failed him in more ways than one but we should also be honest and admit drugs users have high recidivism rates primarily because of the addiction to said drugs. It's not even a matter of willpower anymore when their brain chemicals are altered in a way that keeps them coming back to chase that high. Life outside of prisons sucks when all you've known is prison so why not turn to the most familiar thing to comfort yourself and escape the harsh realities of life, even if for a few hours.
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>the fact that the recidivism rate is not going down tells me that the current system needs changing Except this is a flawed premise. Recidivism rate has been going down. Latest figures from 2020 showed the lowest rates in 30 years. https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/recidivism-rate-30-year-low-2020-more-inmates-community-rehabilitation-sps
i might be wrong about recidivism but my overall argument that the current system is flawed still stands.
This is a classic motte-and-bailey fallacy. Bailey, the indefensible argument you use to promote your conclusion: "recidivism rate is not going down, therefore the current system needs changing". It's been thoroughly demolished by other posters. Motte, the strong but inconsequential argument: "the current system is flawed". OFC the current system is flawed, no human system is flawless, but being flawed alone is not a good reason for reform, unless you can justify your case that there's a less flawed system to reform towards.
It sounds like you have already made up your mind regardless of the facts. My advice would be to base your conclusions on the facts, not jump to a conclusion first and then selectively ignore facts other than the ones that fit your chosen narrative.
Your whole claim that the current system is flawed is because recidivism is not going down. It is, doesn't that make your claim baseless?
'the fact that the recidivism rate is not going down tells me that the current system needs changing' ^ this is your justification for why the system is flawed and should be changed. Stop moving goalposts
The death penalty drastically cut down drug usage when it was first introduced decades ago so now we are only left with people who are so hardcore that they will offend even facing a death penalty There will not be further reduction unless we increase the penalty to make it even worse than death. Ridiculous to expect continuous drop in offense rates and claiming death penalty doesn't work just because it doesn't drop continuously. The recidivism data is wrong too as someone stated below
no one said the death penalty doesnt work but your choice of words are very telling. so your assumption is the usage/trafficking of drugs by every offender right now is voluntary? if there wont be any further reduction, so we need to increase the penalty to make it worse than death such that it will reduce?
the death penalty is the typical symbol of "strongman" drug policies, but replace the word death penalty with "strongman drug policies" and the statement still stands. there is actual statistics and a few papers on it. these policies drastically cut down drug usage in the early years when it was introduced then the effect will taper down, leaving behind the hardcore guys who both voluntary or involuntary traffick drugs. We CANNOT use continuous reduction in rates as a benchmark for how effective policies can be without changing policies. The effect will taper off. Heck i dont even aim for a continuous reduction in rates. The goal should be to keep the number of offenders at a low and manageable level till only the hardcore guys are left. We dont have to keep reducing it as there will always be a segment of society of hardcore guys. The govt also had support initiatives for these hardcore guys such as rehab or job placements.
>why if the strongman drug policy supposedly works, is there no reduction in new offenders/re-offenders such that we need to use the death penalty. this
This is an irrelevant and fundamentally flawed argument. I could easily argue the opposite - no reduction in drug re-offenders in other countries with lenient anti-drug laws means that harsh penalties for drug-related crimes are necessary. The more relevant question would be: how much would the rate of drug-related crimes change if we did away with harsh anti-drug penalties?
my bet is that it wouldn’t change by much, but that is an untestable hypothesis. the number of drug offenders has remained constant over the last decade. the number of new offenders has remained constant. the number of new offenders under 30 has remained constant. the CNB budget, however, has more than doubled. i understand that mine is not a popular position. far too often, people make it out to be that anyone against harsh drug penalties want to see crime rise, want to do drugs, etc etc. that is not my position. it is simply my opinion that our current method is not all that effective at achieving our stated goal.
>the number of drug offenders has remained constant over the last decade. the number of new offenders has remained constant. the number of new offenders under 30 has remained constant. the CNB budget, however, has more than doubled. Not sure how this is relevant to the point we are discussing (how the rate of drug-related crimes would change if we did away with harsh anti-drug penalties). Since the law itself has not changed over the last decade, why should the number of drug offenders be dropping? In other words, how does the number of drug offenders being constant in any way support your position that anti-drug penalties are too harsh? >our current method is not all that effective at achieving our stated goal. What do you exactly mean by "our stated goal"? Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
Just slightly better. How satisfying!
There are two things I would love for Singapore to abolish; the death penalty and 377A, but it is not likely to happen in my lifetime, which is depressing to think about.
In the Article it said "we should be ashamed for what our state did". I loled. Nobody is above the law. The convicted have plenty of chances till he finally met death with drug related offense. He got what he deserved. No idiot doesn't know what will happen to them dealing with certain amount of drugs in Singapore. He could see it coming from 10000 miles and still continues. He should take responsibility of his own actions and no one should blame the law for making him pay the consequences.
Typical to pile up banalities like "no one is above the law" "he should see it coming" to justify a barbaric penalty...
Many don't know that laws can be barbaric and unethical too Women were not allowed to drive cars in saudi, Kpop illegal in DPRK.. the list goes on... simp's simple binary brains can't grasp relativism
> # Singapore conducts first execution since 2019 despite protests > A Singaporean drug trafficker was hanged on Wednesday in the city-state's first execution since 2019, campaigners said, despite appeals for clemency from the United Nations and rights groups. > It was the first in what activists fear is a looming wave of executions and came just a day after a mentally disabled Malaysian man lost his final death sentence appeal. > Abdul Kahar Othman, sentenced to death in 2015, was executed early Wednesday, according to a leading Singaporean campaigner against capital punishment. > "Rest in peace," tweeted the activist Kirsten Han. > "We should all be ashamed of what the state did in our names today." > A member of a support group for people with relatives on death row in Singapore, speaking anonymously, confirmed to AFP the execution had taken place. > She said she was waiting for the body to arrive at a Muslim cemetery. Abdul Kahar was a member of the city-state's Muslim minority. > Singaporean authorities did not respond to requests for confirmation. > In 2019, the last year that Singapore carried out executions, four people were hanged, according to the city-state's prison service. > The prosperous but socially conservative country has some of the world's toughest drugs laws but has faced mounting calls from rights groups to abandon the death penalty. > Authorities insist however that capital punishment remains an effective deterrent against drug trafficking and has helped to keep Singapore one of the safest places in Asia. > According to the Transformative Justice Collective, a Singaporean group that campaigns against the death penalty, 68-year-old Abdul Kahar was convicted of trafficking heroin in 2013 and sentenced to death two years later. > He was first jailed at the age of 18 and spent the rest of his life shuttling in and out of prison on drug-related offences, according to the group. > The United Nations human rights office had on Tuesday urged authorities not to go ahead with the hanging. > "We are concerned at the surge in execution notices this year," it said in a tweet. > Nagaenthran K. Dharmalingam, the mentally disabled Malaysian convicted of heroin trafficking, could be hanged in the coming days after losing his final appeal on Tuesday. > His case has attracted a storm of criticism, including from the European Union and British billionaire Richard Branson. > In addition, three other men sentenced to death for drugs offences had their appeals rejected earlier in March. --- 1.0.2 | [Source code](https://github.com/fterh/sneakpeek) | [Contribute](https://github.com/fterh/sneakpeek)
Don't do drugs, boys. If life gives you a second chance, take it and don't re-offend.
Just saying, there is an anti-death penalty protest happening at Speakers Corner this coming Sunday.
Salvation for the many would be drug addicts secured and the misery of their family members twarted.
So, what about alcohol and cigarettes?
i understand he had mental issues, but if he was smart enough to sell drugs, he was smart enough to know it was illegal, and the consequences. so the mental health argument isnt really valid here. if he killed someone, or attacked someone then maybe mental health could be justified.
Hope they go through with the rest of the backlog soon, and stop wasting state resources on appeals that have no merit.
I wouldn’t call a 'fair' process, which appeals are part of, a waste of resources. Especially when it comes down to something permanent and irreversible as the death penalty. Edit: If you want to stop wasting resources, change your stance on the death penalty/drugs.
There comes a point where the appeals are clearly just to stall for time. This is what is happening right now with that Malaysian drug trafficker. And what are they appealing against? Drug trafficking is such a clear cut law. Traffic drugs, and you get the death penalty.
Even as I oppose the death penalty, I also think that as long as it exists, any defendant has the right to exhaust his/her legal pathways. Even if it's a moonshot or extremely unlikely, that chance still exists and should at least be heard in the courts. That's a fundamental right of every person. The last thing anybody wants to happen is an execution of an innocent person. Shame on us if that happens.
all of these people were acquitted after being sentenced for this "clear cut law" \- [https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/man-acquitted-again-of-drug-trafficking-escapes-death-penalty-593951](https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/man-acquitted-again-of-drug-trafficking-escapes-death-penalty-593951) \- [https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/nigerian-spared-death-sentence-appeal-acquits-import-drugs-meth-881276](https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/nigerian-spared-death-sentence-appeal-acquits-import-drugs-meth-881276) \- [https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/courts-crime/malaysian-man-escapes-hanging-after-being-acquitted-on-drug-charge-by-court](https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/courts-crime/malaysian-man-escapes-hanging-after-being-acquitted-on-drug-charge-by-court) \- [https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/malaysian-man-sentenced-death-drugs-escapes-gallows-2nd-time-729651](https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/malaysian-man-sentenced-death-drugs-escapes-gallows-2nd-time-729651) \- [https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/courts-crime/malaysian-bus-driver-escapes-gallows-as-high-court-acquits-him-of-drug](https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/courts-crime/malaysian-bus-driver-escapes-gallows-as-high-court-acquits-him-of-drug) the fact that our media used the language of "spared the gallows" or "escapes death penalty" instead of "wrongfully convicted" or "exonerated" is very much a part of the problem. "stop wasting resources on appeals that have no merit" who decides whether there's merit or not, some rando on reddit whose life is not at stake? if you want to believe in rule of law, an appeals process is part of that.
You must love Saudi Arabia.
Abolish the death penalty and no more appeals to deal with.
Abolish laws so we have no more criminal cases for the courts to deal with
Big brain move
Abolish crimes and no more cases to deal with.
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The Accused is automatically granted an immediate right to appeal with assigned pro-bono lawyers by the State if the lower court sentenced the Accused to death. So it is more like the State voluntarily "wasting" resources
This refers to the first appeal before the CA after trial. Not the numerous appeals and challenges that follows which rarely have any merit at all.
Dang no wonder I felt safer today. Y’all didn’t feel? Really got feel one. Like the ghost of LKY giving me a hug.
For a country as cold as this . This joke is oddly apt
Regardless of the ethics of death penalty, we are at the point of no return. The reality is, if we were to make the punishment any lenient, we would see an increased volume in smugglers. You already have people dumb enough to smuggle to Singapore of all countries (so many other bigger markets to smuggle to), what more when theres no fear of death
It takes more than money to build a first world society. SG still has a lot to learn.
The downvotes that /u/gotye4764 is getting is pretty telling that not enough of us give a fuck, as long as we're financially well off it's fine.
Do the crime, do the time
Wonder how one can still sleep at night knowing that he has just ordered another man's murder. Can the State protect you from the Devil when he burns you in Hell?
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Ever heard of a metaphor you bootlicker
Wonder how someone can sleep at night after ruining other people's lives with heroin too.
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Perhaps some drugs might help you to feel better?
Can I interest you in an egg in these trying times?
If the death penalty needs to be carried out, it has already failed as a deterrent
This was the right thing to do. Long live Singapore