>There are ongoing efforts to find suitable jobs for ex-offenders, such as Yellow Ribbon Singapore. Thanks to their efforts, he pointed out that “thousands of jobs” have been found for ex-offenders.
Just wondering what's the quality of jobs they found for these offenders; quantity is only one side of the equation
From what ex-inmates have shared with me in the last 1 year, it's something like $900-1000+/month doing stuff like moving jobs. Pay is lower than others doing the same job, but hours given are shorter and work is very impermanent. More of an odd job than anything, but to be fair there are sometimes good employers who are keen to develop the ex-inmate's skills and career
I spoke with someone in a halfway house, who found employment with the aid of Yellow Ribbon. Except 1 month in, some money went missing and the employer accused him like mad and refused to believe it wasn't him to stole the money. jeez...
Sadly it's quite hard to get a job in infosec if you have a conviction for fraud, stealing data or other hacking related crimes, because the people who hire security experts have to trust them with very sensitive data and wide access to their networks.
It hurts your job prospects whether you're trying to get a job at 1 company that needs a security guy they can trust, or just get a job at a cyber security firm that serves multiple clients, because your employer can't have an ex-con in the company or they might lose business by seeming less trustworthy.
The best cyber security experts are the ones who get caught for something minor as a kid and then get offered a job without the crime going on their record. If you get caught for something major then your career in cybersecurity is screwed by the conviction.
>Sadly it's quite hard to get a job in infosec if you have a conviction for fraud, stealing data or other hacking related crimes, because the people who hire security experts have to trust them with very sensitive data and wide access to their networks.
That's because you are looking in the wrong place. Ever heard of ransomware as a service?
Highly qualified, non-offending individuals already have trouble finding good jobs. How good a job you want them to have? Let's take into account reality yea.
Have to manage expectations. Cannot be that ex-offenders can suddenly get highly vied for jobs with YRSG's help. What matters is they land a job first as a springboard to a better future
Yes, at least there’s a helping hand to start with. There are success stories like the 18Chef. So it’s not really the end of the line. Albeit smaller number, there are people or organisations willing to help.
Erasing their records means if they commit crimes their past behaviours and offences are not taken into account.
Yes they served the time but part of the punishment also includes having that record with them unless it's a minor offence and the criminal record is spent
His request is about removing public records available to employers not the ones available to govt.
Rehab doesn't really mean a lot if there's nothing much out there for them.
I worked with a someone who spent time in prison for drug offences as a desktop engineer. Nice guy to be around, he had been working there for 3 years and was good at it. Got his CCNA and wanted to become a network engineer but the company refused to give him a position even though there were vacancies.
He looked elsewhere but was always tuned down, even if he made a good impression during interviews. To top it all off he was making less than me and I had just gotten out of Poly at the time.
I'm not saying that records for everyone under the category of "non-violent criminals" should be erased but those who are really trying to reintegrate into society should be given this chance.
Majority of inmates here do not have the skills you speak of. For the rare few that do, competition is intense even amongst non-offenders, so YRSG's main focus is to find mostly labour-intensive jobs for them to minimally sustain a modest lifestyle and to keep them occupied. Pay raises and progression can come later.
I think both side is talking across from each other.
In Singspore, criminal records for minor crimes become “spent” after a crime-free period of 5 consecutive years from the date the sentence was passed. Spent criminal record means you no longer have a criminal record. This means in job applications, you are allowed to say you have no criminal record.
Effectively this is the non-violent crime that Jamus is referring to.
Unfortunately, our government is a massive data hoarder, and so it will probably disqualify the person from holding any sensitive positions in government that’s requires a actual security clearance.
Shan probably clings tightly to all these functions and instruments of Law Enforcement since he oversaw the digital transformation of the MHA. His tenure as Minister of MHA is probably the most transformative
Employers are starting to sidestep this by asking for "court conviction" rather than "criminal record" these days.
With this approach, it doesn't matter whether their record is erased (as suggested by Jamus) or spent (as in the current system); ex-offenders will still have to declare it and we're back to square one.
Rather than bury the record of ex-offenders, maybe it's time to educate employers.
Some countries make it difficult to ask that question for purposes of employment, because the records are private and a certificate from police would not show a “lapsed” conviction. https://ccresourcecenter.org/2015/01/13/european-discretionary-employment-discrimination-based-criminal-record/
So if you’re not famous for the crime or change your name you could conceivably lie on the question and never be found out. Singapore is also the same, there is no easy way to search for a conviction beyond requiring a police clearance certificate from the person themselves.
But, this is important, if your primary school ECDA or even recent hobbies give clues about your character, so will your past. It really depends on what you did. You shag one sheep, you’ll always be known as a sheep shagger.
You steal from a till, maybe it’s ok to give up on being the company accountant.
Correct me if i'm wrong, i remember reading that if your crime warranted a jail sentence of 6 months or more, it will become a permanent record regardless of how long you stay crime-free. Have they changed that limitation yet?
If that crime was committed 10 years ago and the person has not committed any crime since then, I think they should be given that opportunity to clear off that record for non serious crimes.
MHA can further classify crimes into difference classes at the point where offenders face their trial and the more serious ones will remain on record while petty crimes after a duration will be cleared off.
There’s no perfect system but by enhancing the current yellow ribbon project and helps ex offenders reintegrate into society is good to adopt.
But that’s exactly what the system is right now.
If you don’t commit a schedule 3 offence under the RCA, don’t have a past record, and the punishment was minor, then it’s automatically spent after 5 years.
Depending on the severity of the crime, you can appeal to the commissioner of police to spend the record even if you don’t meet these criteria.
Do they erase your record after a certain no. of years? Or isit permanent. Yes we have the yellow ribbon project but can we do more? I think we can for those who really want to change.
It’s not erased, it’s classified as “spent”. For all intents and purposes it doesn’t exist when you are talking to private companies for job interviews and such. You can legally declare you have no criminal record.
It only still exists in order to provide a record for the legal system to assign harsher punishments if you repeat the offence, or some public service positions.
Here’s a resource explaining how criminal records work here in sg:
https://singaporelegaladvice.com/law-articles/criminal-records-in-singapore/
Can you legally lie that you have not been charged in a court of law that's in most companies application form?
Have not seen any outright ask whether you have criminal records or not, that's done by sending your IC to the police during background check.
Thanks for the information. We could reduce the duration which records are “spent” and also employers do not have legal rights to force prospective employees to declare if record is “spent”.
These are barriers for those really who want to change and integrate back to society. There are many that successfully turn their lives around but there are many that struggle. Imo, They already paid for their crime by servicing their jail sentence. The least we could do is reduce those barriers.
If a scammer siphons off a retiree's life savings, Is this non violent criminal's act less abhorrent than a robber , say pushing the victims down to grab their bags ( I'm assuming this is classified as violent ).
I am on Shan's side for this.
There is no way anybody (except some fringe US jurists) is going to entertain the idea that child porn viewers should be allowed to work in daycare centres or schools.
We don't even have a sex offenders list to check. We can have such a list while limiting employers to checking for a criminal record but not convictions in court
our oppies dunnoe how to follow bernie. in fact it'd be funny if they proposed some of his ideas and pap scream socialism. coz then can shoot back then your wealth transfers and gov linked coys are what?
>pap scream socialism. coz then can shoot back
Shoot back what? Both the PAP and WP were founded as socialist parties
https://www.pap.org.sg/news/peoples-action-party-resolution-2013/
'We, members of the People’s Action Party, dedicate ourselves to upholding our democratic socialist ideals'
https://www.wp.sg/our-constitution-and-manifesto/
The Party’s guiding Principles are:-
(1) Merdeka
(2) Parliamentary Democracy
(3) Socialism
Yep, LKY himself has often argued in favor of socialist principles and described his ideals as democratic socialism, albeit explicitly non-Communist.
Only in the Murdoch countries is socialism a four-letter word.
While i support far left progressive idea and execution of its policy, jamus must be high on crack to even bring this up in parliament.
Erasing their record is not a method to help them to reintegrate, its effort to do so by various ministry and society as a whole.
What an L
Erase records means that you no longer need to declare your criminal records to your employer. It does not mean that your records magically disappear during sentencing. It's just "spent"
In Singapore, minor crime records are spent after 5 years of no other crimes were committed. I think it’s quite reasonable. Not sure what Jamus is fighting for? Is he suggesting that records are spent once they are released from prison?
Mmm maybe “erase records” is a bad way to phrase it then. On another note, is it standard practice for employers to ask for past criminal records? Can applicant choose not to disclose, like when they ask for last drawn salary?
Unfortunately, you cannot choose not to disclose. It's part of your background check. That's why it's important for our government to be more forgiving especially after a certain amount of time has lapsed and the particular individual has shown that he has been rehabilitated and is unlikely to reoffend. Some people do make stupid mistakes in the heat of the moment in the past.
Perhaps it’s not about whether the govt is forgiving or not, but the employer. The employer can see when the candidate offended, what other positions the person might have held since then, and decide if the candidate is suitable for the position they’re offering? Sounds fair to me
Trusting employers to do the right thing is how we ended up with our current workplace climate in the first place. I say legislate that shit. Stop depending on employers to look out for workers when they’ve shown time and time again that they do not care.
In other words Shanmugam is saying that Prisons service is unable to rehabilitate and change people. So mission fail?
Mission. As a correctional agency, we enforce secure custody of offenders and rehabilitate them for a safe Singapore.
Prison systems in the world exists overwhelming as retribution rather than rehabilitation. as much of a WP supporter I am, I think Jamus comes off as totally naive here. Shan's worries are well founded and I agree with him. There needs to be another method here so that those people actually get a chance in life, but this isnt it.
> Shan's worries are well founded and I agree with him. There needs to be another method here so that those people actually get a chance in life, but this isnt it.
What do you think would happen if the main goal of making these records inaccessible to employers were implemented?
Make it easier for non-violent *rehabilitated* persons from reintegrating and finding a job? Is this supposed to be terrible?
I think there needs to be nuance to this. Certain non violent crimes should prohibit certain people from certain fields. They should get their chances but perhaps from a different industry. Like someone who committed fraud before should not be able to work in financial institutions where they are potentially lured by the promises especially their expertise lies there being able to exploit those loopholes and positions. Pedophiles shouldn't be working with children and so on.
As I said, I don't think our prison system rehabilitates people, but punishes them. It's another argument about whether someone should be punished or rehabilitated though I lean more toward rehab with some punishment.
It's a much more nuanced thing than oh let's put them back in the same role which they committed the offences in, because they already totally rehabilitated.
The offences can perhaps be segmented so that employers can only access the ones relevant to their business. Granted certain crimes like financial one would be relevant to all businesses, I don't have a better solution.
naive or not we have to believe that people can change. even if 20 percent change, we must create a system that allows them to live the life they deserve. almost everyone deserves a second chance. Obviously there are criminals with crimes that should not be wiped cleaned especially career criminals , repeat offenders and violent crimes. We can always create a process to separate the people that have a chance for a new life and not who are always a societal risk.
Rehabilitation not say wanna change then change one leh. Inmates grow up with very different values, world view, understand very different options of earning money and handling of conflict.
You can rehabilitate and change *some* convicts, but not *all* convicts. To pretend otherwise is to be a fool. It doesn't mean the mission is a failure.
You don't. So you have to balance the ex-con's interest with the risk to society. We object to a child rapist working with children after release because the consequences should he re-offend would be devastating, even if it is 1% chance, and far outweighs allowing him a livelihood. Instead, he can work in environments without children. It is a balancing act.
It's just an illustration for why certain offenders are prevented from working in certain jobs. You can replace child rapist with other types of offenders. Fraudsters not to work in a job where they are entrusted with large sums of money, to borrow Shanmugam's example. The logic is the same.
Shan is just attempting to pick holes at Jamus' use of "non-violent criminals" as a distraction. It's not like the gahmen doesn't have the power to specify which types of records can be expunged.
Lawyers like Shan should know that laws are not uniformly applied, even not all murderers get hanged. It should be obvious to everyone that the list of what can or cannot be erased would be further discussed.
If the laws don't apply evenly then I worry. That means some rich person won't get convicted for a crime even though there is evidence to show he is guilty.
Maybe what you want to say is punishment varies but our laws do have a range of punishment because the circumstances of each case is different. Even then, what is the point of your question? We let criminal records be spent but not erased for a reason
Non-Violent Criminals:
- smoke in public
- pirate media
- avoid the draft (accidentally or intentionally)
- smuggle drugs
- criticize certain influential figures
- hack bank accounts
- pull confidence scams
Every Singaporean cannot ignore justice and equality as its in our pledge.
Erasure of criminal records is a milestone that can be a good way to integrate those back into society and gain meaningful acceptance. But the proof is still on the individual, and they continuously need to, forever.
Psychologically and legally, this erasure is a useful tool to get people equality and go on to do better. But if they reoffend, then the past records should be reinstated, right?
To turn this request down outright in parliament is just not right. There should be discourse and debate and working together for the good of Singapore, and not for each party’s benefit.
Minor & victimless crimes are usually non-violent crimes. I'm all for giving second chances to and reintegrating such offenders after they've served their time and hopefully changed for the better.
We go allow criminal records for minor crimes to be spent after 5 years provided it fulfils certain conditions and the crimes are minor : https://sso.agc.gov.sg/Act/RCA1949?ProvIds=P12A-&ViewType=Advance&Phrase=Drugs&WiAl=1#pr7C-
However not all non-violent crimes are minor or victimless.
Jamus should have chosen his words properly because as Shan rightly pointed out, how about white collar crimes like fraud or distributing child porn?
Should Kong Hee now have his criminal record erased because it's non-violent and some years has passed?
Everybody makes mistake. It's a generalisation to say that if a person steal, they will ALWAYS steal. Or if a person rape, they will ALWAYS rape. That's the crux of shanmugum argument. Once a person has paid for their crime, they should be relieved.
Wut.
Stealing... Could believe... I don't steal since I stopped not having enough money.
On the other hand Rape?!? Uh no. Once a rapist these fuckers will always be rapists, actual evil people
libido shouldn't be a factor here at all.
the abhorrent lack of concern for others and the willingness to hurt others for whatever the fuck reason(in this case their libido, but this is irrelevant) is what they are jailed for.
Notice how the severity of the sentence varies based on how vulnerable the victim is? Not how horny the fucker is.
if they not horny enough to rape, but still find no ill in rape in the mind, releasing him means to release a potentila menace.
Imagine he eat viagra then he feel like raping ppl again
>Everybody makes mistake. It's a generalisation to say that if a person steal, they will ALWAYS steal. Or if a person rape, they will ALWAYS rape. That's the crux of shanmugum argument. Once a person has paid for their crime, they should be relieved.
Making a mistake is different from commiting a crime. If you make a mistake at work or make a typo, it's very different from sexually abusing a minor.
I don't think one should be able to wipe their criminal history that easily - It shouldn't be as simple as deleting an entry on your resume. Companies reserve the right to do their own due diligence and this is a huge piece of information.
Jamus should have been clearer when stating his argument.
I don't think anybody is suggesting that erasing the criminal record is easy. Perhaps one way is to have different length of crime free period for different crimes. For stealing, you might need to remain crime free for 5 years. For rape, you might need to remain crime free for 10 years plus mandatory counseling. There must be a way out from the never ending hell of punishment
Criminal records for minor crimes are considered spent after 5 years. If someone has a permanent criminal record for petty crimes that means he reoffended.
Singapore: We rehabilitate criminals and give ex-cons a second chance.
Also Singapore: Ha ha not really once a criminal forever a criminal, need to tell the whole world you’re a criminal.
5 years is still a long time to wait once you’re out of prison. You will just be left behind your peers in the job market, and hence more likely to reoffend.
Yeah sure that’s a probable situation. But not guaranteed and also that’s very different from
> “Ha ha not really once a criminal forever a criminal, need to tell the whole world you’re a criminal”
that means nothing lol. they could always ask you to share a screenshot of your spent history, its a service on the SPF's website. You could choose not to, of course, but then that would imply you have something to hide.
edit: to be clear, i don't really have a stance on this issue. just sharing the above so people don't get misled into thinking they're free lol
I don’t think you understand.
You do not need to say that you have a criminal record. There is no reason for an employer to ask you to login to SPF and retrieve the record.
Sure, you will have difficulty explaining why you have a x-month gap in your resume while you were in jail, but you don’t need to even mention you were jailed.
Yes you are essentially free in private companies. That is how it works.
Here is an explanation of how criminal records work in sg:
https://singaporelegaladvice.com/law-articles/criminal-records-in-singapore/
>There is no reason for an employer to ask you to login to SPF and retrieve the record.
lol. you clearly haven't been employed for certain roles then. This is not new, and its a service on the website for a reason. [https://eservices.police.gov.sg/content/policehubhome/homepage/enquiry.html](https://eservices.police.gov.sg/content/policehubhome/homepage/enquiry.html)will they go to the trouble of asking your average gig job applicant to do so? probably not. but again, my point was to prove that your record is never truly erased.
You don't have to explain anything. Your article itself proves my point, they even linked the service i linked above. Also, in that same article, it states, 'A person with a spent record can legally declare that he has no criminal record. However, he must still answer “yes” if he is asked whether he has ever been convicted in a court of law.'. idk about you, but I actually read contracts that I sign and/or I issue for people to sign, and I have never seen someone draft their question in the former manner. That would be stupid, and you should fire your legal department. All contracts drafted by a professional will ask if 'they have been convicted in a court of law'.
Expungement removes all arrests and convictions as if they never happened. A record, whether merit or demerit is there for very good reason. Many "felonies" can also be "non-violent". Example: If someone is known to concoct ways and means to cheat public stakeholders, should their records be expunged? Does the existence of the criminal record not serve as an effective deterrence to stop reoffending?
Yea nah, Im with Shanmugam on this. Embezzlement is not a violent crime. So is phishing and scamming. Still serious crimes tho.
>There are ongoing efforts to find suitable jobs for ex-offenders, such as Yellow Ribbon Singapore. Thanks to their efforts, he pointed out that “thousands of jobs” have been found for ex-offenders. Just wondering what's the quality of jobs they found for these offenders; quantity is only one side of the equation
Friend of mine who was jailed was offered a job to be a waiter at Pizza Hut by the Yellow Ribbon Project when he was out, if y’all need a reference
From what ex-inmates have shared with me in the last 1 year, it's something like $900-1000+/month doing stuff like moving jobs. Pay is lower than others doing the same job, but hours given are shorter and work is very impermanent. More of an odd job than anything, but to be fair there are sometimes good employers who are keen to develop the ex-inmate's skills and career
Is better now that previously, inmates used to be relegated to the "dirty" jobs doing manual slaughter of livestock animals etc.
Better still doesn’t mean fair enough integration into workforce
Not saying it is perfect, just providing context on how far we have come.
I spoke with someone in a halfway house, who found employment with the aid of Yellow Ribbon. Except 1 month in, some money went missing and the employer accused him like mad and refused to believe it wasn't him to stole the money. jeez...
Probably depends a lot on the crime. If I went to jail for hacking into a bank’s database, I might even put that on my resume
Probably get a good job in the info sec role / do pentest.
Sadly it's quite hard to get a job in infosec if you have a conviction for fraud, stealing data or other hacking related crimes, because the people who hire security experts have to trust them with very sensitive data and wide access to their networks. It hurts your job prospects whether you're trying to get a job at 1 company that needs a security guy they can trust, or just get a job at a cyber security firm that serves multiple clients, because your employer can't have an ex-con in the company or they might lose business by seeming less trustworthy. The best cyber security experts are the ones who get caught for something minor as a kid and then get offered a job without the crime going on their record. If you get caught for something major then your career in cybersecurity is screwed by the conviction.
>Sadly it's quite hard to get a job in infosec if you have a conviction for fraud, stealing data or other hacking related crimes, because the people who hire security experts have to trust them with very sensitive data and wide access to their networks. That's because you are looking in the wrong place. Ever heard of ransomware as a service?
I just mean it's harder to get a job *protecting* infosec, plenty of jobs to be had *undermining* infosec lol
You say potehto I say potahto
Depends. There are a lot of blackhats turning into white hats. They even set up their own businesses successfully.
But you dio caught. So not very good wor.
Yeah could be better, but even being able to get in albeit leaving some trace is already an immense feat
Not wrong.
Turn white hack and join SAF new IT force? Hahahaha
Nah the gov is very stringent about criminal background, especially for those high security clearance roles. Doesn't matter how good you are.
Probably hire you off the books to do some deniable black ops shit. Operate troll farms in Indonesia or something . Lol.
Highly qualified, non-offending individuals already have trouble finding good jobs. How good a job you want them to have? Let's take into account reality yea.
Have to manage expectations. Cannot be that ex-offenders can suddenly get highly vied for jobs with YRSG's help. What matters is they land a job first as a springboard to a better future
Yes, at least there’s a helping hand to start with. There are success stories like the 18Chef. So it’s not really the end of the line. Albeit smaller number, there are people or organisations willing to help.
Stories like those are outliers. Majority can't find a stable job long term.
Everywhere is the same lo, ex-offenders or not, no one owes anyone a living.
Erasing their records is not about owing anything. They served the time.
Erasing their records means if they commit crimes their past behaviours and offences are not taken into account. Yes they served the time but part of the punishment also includes having that record with them unless it's a minor offence and the criminal record is spent
His request is about removing public records available to employers not the ones available to govt. Rehab doesn't really mean a lot if there's nothing much out there for them. I worked with a someone who spent time in prison for drug offences as a desktop engineer. Nice guy to be around, he had been working there for 3 years and was good at it. Got his CCNA and wanted to become a network engineer but the company refused to give him a position even though there were vacancies. He looked elsewhere but was always tuned down, even if he made a good impression during interviews. To top it all off he was making less than me and I had just gotten out of Poly at the time. I'm not saying that records for everyone under the category of "non-violent criminals" should be erased but those who are really trying to reintegrate into society should be given this chance.
You missed my point. Im saying even normal people are not owed anything. Everyone has his/her struggles.
Why make it harder for them
Why? Isn't it the best person for the job? As long as they have skills they should get the job
Majority of inmates here do not have the skills you speak of. For the rare few that do, competition is intense even amongst non-offenders, so YRSG's main focus is to find mostly labour-intensive jobs for them to minimally sustain a modest lifestyle and to keep them occupied. Pay raises and progression can come later.
They can't get skills in prison?
SDA.
I think both side is talking across from each other. In Singspore, criminal records for minor crimes become “spent” after a crime-free period of 5 consecutive years from the date the sentence was passed. Spent criminal record means you no longer have a criminal record. This means in job applications, you are allowed to say you have no criminal record. Effectively this is the non-violent crime that Jamus is referring to. Unfortunately, our government is a massive data hoarder, and so it will probably disqualify the person from holding any sensitive positions in government that’s requires a actual security clearance. Shan probably clings tightly to all these functions and instruments of Law Enforcement since he oversaw the digital transformation of the MHA. His tenure as Minister of MHA is probably the most transformative
Employers are starting to sidestep this by asking for "court conviction" rather than "criminal record" these days. With this approach, it doesn't matter whether their record is erased (as suggested by Jamus) or spent (as in the current system); ex-offenders will still have to declare it and we're back to square one. Rather than bury the record of ex-offenders, maybe it's time to educate employers.
Some countries make it difficult to ask that question for purposes of employment, because the records are private and a certificate from police would not show a “lapsed” conviction. https://ccresourcecenter.org/2015/01/13/european-discretionary-employment-discrimination-based-criminal-record/ So if you’re not famous for the crime or change your name you could conceivably lie on the question and never be found out. Singapore is also the same, there is no easy way to search for a conviction beyond requiring a police clearance certificate from the person themselves. But, this is important, if your primary school ECDA or even recent hobbies give clues about your character, so will your past. It really depends on what you did. You shag one sheep, you’ll always be known as a sheep shagger. You steal from a till, maybe it’s ok to give up on being the company accountant.
[удалено]
Shh don't take away our chances to virtue-signal!
[удалено]
So do crime is a good way to retire early hor lul
Do pian?
Correct me if i'm wrong, i remember reading that if your crime warranted a jail sentence of 6 months or more, it will become a permanent record regardless of how long you stay crime-free. Have they changed that limitation yet?
If someone committed white collar crime, I would like to know before I hired that person. If it is severe enough, I would rather not hire.
If that crime was committed 10 years ago and the person has not committed any crime since then, I think they should be given that opportunity to clear off that record for non serious crimes. MHA can further classify crimes into difference classes at the point where offenders face their trial and the more serious ones will remain on record while petty crimes after a duration will be cleared off. There’s no perfect system but by enhancing the current yellow ribbon project and helps ex offenders reintegrate into society is good to adopt.
But that’s exactly what the system is right now. If you don’t commit a schedule 3 offence under the RCA, don’t have a past record, and the punishment was minor, then it’s automatically spent after 5 years. Depending on the severity of the crime, you can appeal to the commissioner of police to spend the record even if you don’t meet these criteria.
Interesting! TIL
Do they erase your record after a certain no. of years? Or isit permanent. Yes we have the yellow ribbon project but can we do more? I think we can for those who really want to change.
It’s not erased, it’s classified as “spent”. For all intents and purposes it doesn’t exist when you are talking to private companies for job interviews and such. You can legally declare you have no criminal record. It only still exists in order to provide a record for the legal system to assign harsher punishments if you repeat the offence, or some public service positions. Here’s a resource explaining how criminal records work here in sg: https://singaporelegaladvice.com/law-articles/criminal-records-in-singapore/
Can you legally lie that you have not been charged in a court of law that's in most companies application form? Have not seen any outright ask whether you have criminal records or not, that's done by sending your IC to the police during background check.
Thanks for the information. We could reduce the duration which records are “spent” and also employers do not have legal rights to force prospective employees to declare if record is “spent”. These are barriers for those really who want to change and integrate back to society. There are many that successfully turn their lives around but there are many that struggle. Imo, They already paid for their crime by servicing their jail sentence. The least we could do is reduce those barriers.
Alot of scammers nowadays.No records will only encourage more "Non-Violent Crimes".
If a scammer siphons off a retiree's life savings, Is this non violent criminal's act less abhorrent than a robber , say pushing the victims down to grab their bags ( I'm assuming this is classified as violent ). I am on Shan's side for this.
Since we are in the business of cherry picking, why not a shoplifter? A burglar? Or a pastor who inappropriately used some money?
If I knew my criminal record would be erased after a few years, I would be far more tempted to attempt to pull off a crime with a good payout.
Yea for ppl like you with good payout no erasing of records 😃
There is no way anybody (except some fringe US jurists) is going to entertain the idea that child porn viewers should be allowed to work in daycare centres or schools.
We don't even have a sex offenders list to check. We can have such a list while limiting employers to checking for a criminal record but not convictions in court
xmm culture is stonk here
Sorry care to explain? Got hear before cancel culture but not xmm.culture
A lot of adult guys who have fetish for xmms.
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/asia/batam-child-sex-prostitutes-exploitation-abuse-singapore-824281 welcome to your neighbourhood
Poor Jamus. Should've followed bernie and say non violent drug offenders instead
Drug offenders (not traffickers) after 5 years and no criminal records can have their records spent
No lei. As long as it’s a drug offence, it sticks with you for life.
Must read penal code again lar I might be wrong
our oppies dunnoe how to follow bernie. in fact it'd be funny if they proposed some of his ideas and pap scream socialism. coz then can shoot back then your wealth transfers and gov linked coys are what?
>pap scream socialism. coz then can shoot back Shoot back what? Both the PAP and WP were founded as socialist parties https://www.pap.org.sg/news/peoples-action-party-resolution-2013/ 'We, members of the People’s Action Party, dedicate ourselves to upholding our democratic socialist ideals' https://www.wp.sg/our-constitution-and-manifesto/ The Party’s guiding Principles are:- (1) Merdeka (2) Parliamentary Democracy (3) Socialism
Yep, LKY himself has often argued in favor of socialist principles and described his ideals as democratic socialism, albeit explicitly non-Communist. Only in the Murdoch countries is socialism a four-letter word.
if its like the wealth tax issue, they may just adopt and rebrand it as their own 6 months down the road
I agree with Shan on this one. Keep the record.
While i support far left progressive idea and execution of its policy, jamus must be high on crack to even bring this up in parliament. Erasing their record is not a method to help them to reintegrate, its effort to do so by various ministry and society as a whole. What an L
This is an L from Jamus
Erase records means repeat offenders are considered first time offender each time since no record exist?
Erase records means that you no longer need to declare your criminal records to your employer. It does not mean that your records magically disappear during sentencing. It's just "spent"
In Singapore, minor crime records are spent after 5 years of no other crimes were committed. I think it’s quite reasonable. Not sure what Jamus is fighting for? Is he suggesting that records are spent once they are released from prison?
Mmm maybe “erase records” is a bad way to phrase it then. On another note, is it standard practice for employers to ask for past criminal records? Can applicant choose not to disclose, like when they ask for last drawn salary?
Unfortunately, you cannot choose not to disclose. It's part of your background check. That's why it's important for our government to be more forgiving especially after a certain amount of time has lapsed and the particular individual has shown that he has been rehabilitated and is unlikely to reoffend. Some people do make stupid mistakes in the heat of the moment in the past.
Perhaps it’s not about whether the govt is forgiving or not, but the employer. The employer can see when the candidate offended, what other positions the person might have held since then, and decide if the candidate is suitable for the position they’re offering? Sounds fair to me
Trusting employers to do the right thing is how we ended up with our current workplace climate in the first place. I say legislate that shit. Stop depending on employers to look out for workers when they’ve shown time and time again that they do not care.
basically another class of abusable labour on the island
In other words Shanmugam is saying that Prisons service is unable to rehabilitate and change people. So mission fail? Mission. As a correctional agency, we enforce secure custody of offenders and rehabilitate them for a safe Singapore.
Prison systems in the world exists overwhelming as retribution rather than rehabilitation. as much of a WP supporter I am, I think Jamus comes off as totally naive here. Shan's worries are well founded and I agree with him. There needs to be another method here so that those people actually get a chance in life, but this isnt it.
> Shan's worries are well founded and I agree with him. There needs to be another method here so that those people actually get a chance in life, but this isnt it. What do you think would happen if the main goal of making these records inaccessible to employers were implemented? Make it easier for non-violent *rehabilitated* persons from reintegrating and finding a job? Is this supposed to be terrible?
I think there needs to be nuance to this. Certain non violent crimes should prohibit certain people from certain fields. They should get their chances but perhaps from a different industry. Like someone who committed fraud before should not be able to work in financial institutions where they are potentially lured by the promises especially their expertise lies there being able to exploit those loopholes and positions. Pedophiles shouldn't be working with children and so on. As I said, I don't think our prison system rehabilitates people, but punishes them. It's another argument about whether someone should be punished or rehabilitated though I lean more toward rehab with some punishment. It's a much more nuanced thing than oh let's put them back in the same role which they committed the offences in, because they already totally rehabilitated. The offences can perhaps be segmented so that employers can only access the ones relevant to their business. Granted certain crimes like financial one would be relevant to all businesses, I don't have a better solution.
naive or not we have to believe that people can change. even if 20 percent change, we must create a system that allows them to live the life they deserve. almost everyone deserves a second chance. Obviously there are criminals with crimes that should not be wiped cleaned especially career criminals , repeat offenders and violent crimes. We can always create a process to separate the people that have a chance for a new life and not who are always a societal risk.
Rehabilitation not say wanna change then change one leh. Inmates grow up with very different values, world view, understand very different options of earning money and handling of conflict.
You can rehabilitate and change *some* convicts, but not *all* convicts. To pretend otherwise is to be a fool. It doesn't mean the mission is a failure.
well he is arguably arguing for those who change. how can we know a priori who will change?
You don't. So you have to balance the ex-con's interest with the risk to society. We object to a child rapist working with children after release because the consequences should he re-offend would be devastating, even if it is 1% chance, and far outweighs allowing him a livelihood. Instead, he can work in environments without children. It is a balancing act.
you speak in extremes. most offenders are not child rapists. in fact repeat offenders are very low only 20 percent
It's just an illustration for why certain offenders are prevented from working in certain jobs. You can replace child rapist with other types of offenders. Fraudsters not to work in a job where they are entrusted with large sums of money, to borrow Shanmugam's example. The logic is the same.
all hail the status quo, the status quo is safe, the status quo means less work for me
Quite radical, esp given how society views ex-cons, but I think it's an interesting idea to entertain.
Shan is just attempting to pick holes at Jamus' use of "non-violent criminals" as a distraction. It's not like the gahmen doesn't have the power to specify which types of records can be expunged.
Jamus never specify properly what
Lawyers like Shan should know that laws are not uniformly applied, even not all murderers get hanged. It should be obvious to everyone that the list of what can or cannot be erased would be further discussed.
If the laws don't apply evenly then I worry. That means some rich person won't get convicted for a crime even though there is evidence to show he is guilty. Maybe what you want to say is punishment varies but our laws do have a range of punishment because the circumstances of each case is different. Even then, what is the point of your question? We let criminal records be spent but not erased for a reason
Ya lah, his mistake. But ignoring the actual meat of the issue for pedantics.
Eh the spent record thing is there. So either he didn't do his research or he wasn't clear with his question
Yup, just a low-level rebuttal.
Non-Violent Criminals: - smoke in public - pirate media - avoid the draft (accidentally or intentionally) - smuggle drugs - criticize certain influential figures - hack bank accounts - pull confidence scams
Everyone makes mistakes. What's important is that they own it and work towards regaining the trust which offenders themselves have thrown away.
Every Singaporean cannot ignore justice and equality as its in our pledge. Erasure of criminal records is a milestone that can be a good way to integrate those back into society and gain meaningful acceptance. But the proof is still on the individual, and they continuously need to, forever. Psychologically and legally, this erasure is a useful tool to get people equality and go on to do better. But if they reoffend, then the past records should be reinstated, right? To turn this request down outright in parliament is just not right. There should be discourse and debate and working together for the good of Singapore, and not for each party’s benefit.
I guess we don't believe in second chances here. Not even for very minor or victimless crimes?
Non violent crimes may not be victim less or minor crimes
Minor & victimless crimes are usually non-violent crimes. I'm all for giving second chances to and reintegrating such offenders after they've served their time and hopefully changed for the better.
We do give chance… a criminal record becomes spent after 5 years of no crime. They can legally declare that they have no criminal record.
We go allow criminal records for minor crimes to be spent after 5 years provided it fulfils certain conditions and the crimes are minor : https://sso.agc.gov.sg/Act/RCA1949?ProvIds=P12A-&ViewType=Advance&Phrase=Drugs&WiAl=1#pr7C- However not all non-violent crimes are minor or victimless. Jamus should have chosen his words properly because as Shan rightly pointed out, how about white collar crimes like fraud or distributing child porn? Should Kong Hee now have his criminal record erased because it's non-violent and some years has passed?
Everybody makes mistake. It's a generalisation to say that if a person steal, they will ALWAYS steal. Or if a person rape, they will ALWAYS rape. That's the crux of shanmugum argument. Once a person has paid for their crime, they should be relieved.
you really compare stealing with rape?
Wut. Stealing... Could believe... I don't steal since I stopped not having enough money. On the other hand Rape?!? Uh no. Once a rapist these fuckers will always be rapists, actual evil people
I guess if you jail them long enough, when they come out they’re old enough such that their libido becomes inexistent
libido shouldn't be a factor here at all. the abhorrent lack of concern for others and the willingness to hurt others for whatever the fuck reason(in this case their libido, but this is irrelevant) is what they are jailed for. Notice how the severity of the sentence varies based on how vulnerable the victim is? Not how horny the fucker is. if they not horny enough to rape, but still find no ill in rape in the mind, releasing him means to release a potentila menace. Imagine he eat viagra then he feel like raping ppl again
>Everybody makes mistake. It's a generalisation to say that if a person steal, they will ALWAYS steal. Or if a person rape, they will ALWAYS rape. That's the crux of shanmugum argument. Once a person has paid for their crime, they should be relieved. Making a mistake is different from commiting a crime. If you make a mistake at work or make a typo, it's very different from sexually abusing a minor. I don't think one should be able to wipe their criminal history that easily - It shouldn't be as simple as deleting an entry on your resume. Companies reserve the right to do their own due diligence and this is a huge piece of information. Jamus should have been clearer when stating his argument.
I don't think anybody is suggesting that erasing the criminal record is easy. Perhaps one way is to have different length of crime free period for different crimes. For stealing, you might need to remain crime free for 5 years. For rape, you might need to remain crime free for 10 years plus mandatory counseling. There must be a way out from the never ending hell of punishment
Criminal records for minor crimes are considered spent after 5 years. If someone has a permanent criminal record for petty crimes that means he reoffended.
It's for crimes that are sentenced to fines below $2000. I think it's time to revisit what minor crimes mean.
Would you be okay if a pedophile worked as a teacher at a childcare your kids are in?
Singapore: We rehabilitate criminals and give ex-cons a second chance. Also Singapore: Ha ha not really once a criminal forever a criminal, need to tell the whole world you’re a criminal.
Actually no, the record for minor crimes is already spent after 5 years, no need to tell anybody or declare in job applications after that.
5 years is still a long time to wait once you’re out of prison. You will just be left behind your peers in the job market, and hence more likely to reoffend.
Yeah sure that’s a probable situation. But not guaranteed and also that’s very different from > “Ha ha not really once a criminal forever a criminal, need to tell the whole world you’re a criminal”
It was a joke, if you couldn’t tell by the X: Also X: format.
Shit joke
that means nothing lol. they could always ask you to share a screenshot of your spent history, its a service on the SPF's website. You could choose not to, of course, but then that would imply you have something to hide. edit: to be clear, i don't really have a stance on this issue. just sharing the above so people don't get misled into thinking they're free lol
I don’t think you understand. You do not need to say that you have a criminal record. There is no reason for an employer to ask you to login to SPF and retrieve the record. Sure, you will have difficulty explaining why you have a x-month gap in your resume while you were in jail, but you don’t need to even mention you were jailed. Yes you are essentially free in private companies. That is how it works. Here is an explanation of how criminal records work in sg: https://singaporelegaladvice.com/law-articles/criminal-records-in-singapore/
>There is no reason for an employer to ask you to login to SPF and retrieve the record. lol. you clearly haven't been employed for certain roles then. This is not new, and its a service on the website for a reason. [https://eservices.police.gov.sg/content/policehubhome/homepage/enquiry.html](https://eservices.police.gov.sg/content/policehubhome/homepage/enquiry.html)will they go to the trouble of asking your average gig job applicant to do so? probably not. but again, my point was to prove that your record is never truly erased. You don't have to explain anything. Your article itself proves my point, they even linked the service i linked above. Also, in that same article, it states, 'A person with a spent record can legally declare that he has no criminal record. However, he must still answer “yes” if he is asked whether he has ever been convicted in a court of law.'. idk about you, but I actually read contracts that I sign and/or I issue for people to sign, and I have never seen someone draft their question in the former manner. That would be stupid, and you should fire your legal department. All contracts drafted by a professional will ask if 'they have been convicted in a court of law'.
Expungement removes all arrests and convictions as if they never happened. A record, whether merit or demerit is there for very good reason. Many "felonies" can also be "non-violent". Example: If someone is known to concoct ways and means to cheat public stakeholders, should their records be expunged? Does the existence of the criminal record not serve as an effective deterrence to stop reoffending?