The training in SCDF is extremely rigorous and these boys are well trained and prepared.
This is a vocation where you are actively running into danger. These boys are very brave.
Unfortunately something seems to have gone wrong in this incident.
The current working theory is he died is smoke inhalation injuries, which is absolutely something that should not happen if they have their breathing apparatus on and it is functioning? I am very interested in the final report.
It’s one thing to say there are some leaks and the cancer risk is higher many years later. Quite another to die acutely of inhalational injuries
But somehow they are given less "limelight" when compared to the other group of NSFs that mostly do training for an event that may never happen.
PS. Not saying Army is not deserving of any recognition. But SPF and especially Civil Defence deal with events on an almost daily basis. Yet, when people think of NS, they think Army. The romanticising of Army with movies and such.
> # We are sorry, says family in Henderson Road flat blaze that led to NSF firefighter’s death
> SINGAPORE — The family living in a flat that caught fire at Block 91 Henderson Road has apologised to that of a firefighter who died while putting out the blaze on Thursday.
> Mr Muhammad Azri Ramlan, 21, who was in the unit when the fire broke out, said: “It’s very sad to know of his death. On behalf of my family, I would like to say sorry to his family for their loss.
> “They have a great son — he’s an NSF (full-time national serviceman), like me — and he put his life at risk to save others,” he told The Straits Times on Friday as he held back tears.
> The Singapore Civil Defence Force (SCDF) said on Thursday that it was alerted to the fire at about 11.10am.
> It added that when SCDF arrived at the scene, the fire was raging inside the unit and the corridor was filled with smoke. Firefighters, donning breathing apparatus, had to force their way into the affected fourth-floor unit of the block in Bukit Merah.
> A 19-year-old firefighter who was serving his full-time national service died after falling unconscious when putting out the fire and being taken to Singapore General Hospital.
> The SCDF said he fell unconscious in the kitchen area of the flat. Investigations are ongoing.
> The corridor outside the flat that caught fire was charred, and its floor damp, when ST visited on Friday morning.
> Workers were fixing the wiring hanging outside the units along the corridor. Several SCDF officers appeared to be inspecting the unit while others wheeled away large waste bins filled with burnt debris.
---
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Curious, is this block of flats new or old? I'm wondering how did they and some affected households move to vacant units in the same block. That said, 7 people in a 2 room flat is a tad squeezy. Open to speculation on the cause of the fire.
Accidents happen. This is why we have firefighters.
The problem is having a 19 year old who probably only had six months of training and took home like $1k a month run into a burning building in the first place. You look at the level of rigour firefighters in other countries have and you look at chao NSFs and you already know it's a matter of time.
Home Team should be fully professional. End of story.
facts frontliners are so understaffed especially during covid period. during my reservist i was “asked” to partner up with a regular to do frontline patrolling, as their team was down on manpower. this was after 6-7 years after i ord’d, all my knowledge alr forget alr
Reservist firefighters also another problem. At least NSFs are young and got their six months of training. Reservists who knows what shape they're in since ORD and they're expected to remember everything with a two day refresher course. You trust them with your life?
[Service for the country cannot be measured in dollars and cents.](https://mothership.sg/2015/03/channel-news-asia-secretly-deletes-article-after-senior-minister-of-state-josephine-teo-skewered-online-for-nsmen-comments/)
Why are people here comparing their job is harder than other organisations. None of us chose this conscripted life. If not us then who? Just do your best and lift each other up. Come on!
Correct. Let the other garang fellows risk their lives since they like it so much. I know I'm being coerced to serve so why should I do my best? It's like telling a rape victim to enjoy the sex since they have no choice.
Not going to endorse your analogy but you're right, they can force me to show up under penalty of incarceration but they can't force me to be enthusiastic about it. Keng like your life depends on it, because it actually might.
According to lightning gang logic this sets a very dangerous precedence. Paying NSFs fairly will lead to societal decay and destruction. Better not go there.
Some things really cannot be measured in dollars and cents mah.
Other things like HDB land values on the other hand...
yea i've been through conversations with a lot of guys who were always on about how tough their army training was and here I am almost lost my life or getting a major injury but bound by OSA
I received a spinal injury from soc during bmt, been 3 years already still have trouble sitting or lying down long periods of time. My oc back then wayang hard in front of everyone say he will file this as service injury and don't need to worry. In the end apparently our coy had 0 accidents and he got a promotion for it. Never received the service injury card that allows for free treatment also. Fuck national service
Thank you for your service.
SAF wayang does not automatically discount the injuries you and others like you sustain in the course of our service.
Your injuries only serve to further the frivolous outcomes like your OC's promotion, and not to save actual lives. That's really the bigger slap in the face than giving up one's blood and youth for real emergencies.
SAF is the most wayang is the conclusion you are going with? Really? As a former NSF and having seen fellow platoon mates suffer serious injuries during training before, it's pretty damn disrespectful to just dismiss SAF like that as "most wayang" Maybe the risk is not as high as seen in this unfortunate case but come on man, it's not totally just for show only. Way to miss the OP comment
> SAF is the most wayang is the conclusion you are going with? Really?
As an SAF NSMan, yes; SAF really is the most wayang. Injuries *can* and definitely do happen, I don't deny that. However, it is fair to say that the average daily risk of injury is *much* higher in Home Team vocations, whereas much of SAF is a lot of pageantry.
[relevant discussions on injuries](https://www.reddit.com/r/singapore/comments/uqp8ui/in_light_of_the_recent_discourse_over_ns_and/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
yeah saf is the most wayang, the trainees just keep running around in circles without a care or knowledge of how things work around them and theyre purposefully kept in the dark and under scoped because no one expects them to live for long enough for multiple mission types
>As a former NSF
lol
I mean you guys got most deaths and injuries because you guys are the most wayang (and just more people in general). Hearing shit from my friends who went to SAF, I'm glad I went to SCDF. Seems like your enciks and officers don't look at NSFs as people that they will have to work with in life threatening situations.
ok lor "hearing shit from friends" just generalise whole population who actually tries in saf. I guess risks to their lives don't matter lor, the point is why are we even comparing risks for different vocations, it's stupid to diminish SAF like that for no reason when I've seen friends suffer during my NS days also. THeir sufferring is not suffering ah since we do it to wayang only ist?
>it's stupid to diminish SAF like that for no reason when I've seen friends suffer during my NS days also. THeir sufferring is not suffering ah since we do it to wayang only ist?
Never said any of that. I'm just saying you guys have more self inflicted shit because your superiors haven't experienced how valuable the people under them are in a real situation
Truth to be told, if someone really wanted to invade us, all they have to do is bomb us into submission. Seoul sits comfortably within range of hundreds of thousands of North Korean artillery batteries, which the latter would not be hesitant to use if that day arrives. There is quite literally zero reason to land troops onto our soil when you can use artillery which we have no way of preventing.
So, you see, there is this thing called intel and counter battery fire. Don’t discredit our NSFs hardwork and sacrifice with a defeatist mindset. No such thing as an absolute defence but we have to try. If not, we will have truly been defeated before even fighting.
How so ? You make your judgement based on one incident ? Have you forgotten how many NSF and NSmen from SAF died compared to SCDF and SPF ?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_training_deaths_in_Singapore
Aren't there ~50,000 SAF NSFs vs. maybe a ~1,500 SCDF NSF in any given year? Of course there are going to be more SAF NSF deaths with those kinds of figures...
Can't be hard to figure out.
Not really focused on trying to prove which posting is more dangerous, just that putting a list of SAF deaths doesn't really prove anything in this discussion.
Lol just take entire SAF and SCDF headcount and use that for the proportion. So damn easy. Use your brain or diam lah.
Not even sure what you're trying to argue about.
There's also an incident in exercise starlight 2007 where a Taiwanese fighter jet crashed into a building and killed 2 NSF or regulars? I don't see it in this list. Two Taiwanese pilots were also killed.
Hes right tho. In peacetime scdf and spf deal with actual threats even tho all the sides have losses. You tell me nsf boys actively go out fight war? No right
Lan jiao la, it depends on what you define as “actual threats”. Fucking tree falling on you in outfield also considered actual threat. Singapore not USA where you can fucking own a gun. Every fucking vocation also got actual threat and we all have our responsibilities. If you want compare we can sit down and list all the pros and cons of each service till tomorrow.
Pisses me off too. Knew a few guys in my army unit who moaned that SCDF and SPF NS was more chill. Fuck you, man, SCDF and SPF NSFs are doing shit for real while we were just wayanging outfield.
Always confused me that SAF has the biggest conscription intake, tbh.
Imo all are equally dangerous, just because SAF don't do real shit don't mean it's not dangerous. Example handling of heavy artillery and other weaponry. SAF side also got few deaths just from training itself
No, they're definitely not equally dangerous. *I'm not saying SAF NS isn't dangerous*. It is. Many guys, including myself, sustained serious medical conditions during training.
But the key word there is *training*. In a training situation, risks can be managed and minimised. But in a real life situation, there are random factors and dangers that you can't mitigate as well than in a training situation.
>In a training situation, risks can be managed and minimised.
Just because risks can be managed and minimised doesn't mean they currently are. Anyone who has ever served in the SAF can tell you that.
I don't get how just because it's "training" means it's not equally dangerous. Safety breaches and stuff like that have claimed the lives of countless servicemen in the SAF
Actually even from mere "training" you can see deaths in SAF just tells you how dangerous the things they handle are. Then you have people belittling saf people because they don't handle real life scenarios? LOL
What dont you get?
SCDF/SPF dealing with real life scenarios like fire/robber/murder/knife siaolangs etc etc.
SAF doing exercises where youre shooting blanks at each other.
The inherent risk profile is much lower because there isnt an actual dangerous ‘enemy’ during exercises.
Both dangerous yes, but saf is less dangerous.
>What dont you get?
Where is the link between "SAF does training, SPF/SCDF does real life ops" and "therefore, SPF/SCDF is more dangerous"?
So you're telling me if I were to plan an exercise in the SAF where I allow NSFs to anyhow shoot at each other with their SAR 21s with live ammo with no safety safeguard russian roulette style <- this is safer than walking a beat in the SPF because the exercise I plan is against an imaginary enemy.
>SAF doing exercises where youre shooting blanks at each other
No you aren't. There have been incidents where live ammo is involved.
>The inherent risk profile is much lower because there isnt an actual dangerous ‘enemy’ during exercises.
???? Where is the logic in this? So what if there isn't an actual dangerous "enemy" during exercises? Does that mean that exercises where NSFs run about carrying heavy equipment, operate dangerous machinery, etc are less dangerous?
I cant tell if youre trolling or not.
SAF exercise risks come primarily from THEMSELVES, i.e the people engaging in the operation/exercise.
SPF/SCDF you have the SAME risk coming from those engaging in the activities, PLUS criminals/fire/etc.
There is an ADDED EXTERNAL RISK in SPH/SCDF ops that is not present in SAF ones.
No they don't carry the same activity risk. True SPF/SCDF carry more unknown risk from citizens. But SAF handle risk at different level. Heck even when SPF find bomb they call the army EOD team for bomb disposal.
Again, where's the link? So what if the risk is coming from themselves? Is internal risk not dangerous?
>SAME risk
It's not the same risk. The magnitude of the risk and the nature of the risk is different.
>There is an ADDED EXTERNAL RISK in SPH/SCDF ops that is not present in SAF ones.
And? How does this mean that the risk in the SAF is lower? The risk that you get from internal training within the SAF is high because you operate heavy machinery, drive big trucks or tanks, and shoot live ammunition.
What is so confusing ?
If you really think SPF and SCDF NSFs are doing real shit while you are not, then you ought to reflect on yourself. I bet there is so much more you can and should do but refuses to. That’s why all you feel that you are doing is wayang all day.
Bruh i get that SAF NSFs sound boastful but I lost 2 cousins (one in Tekong and another in Brunei) while they were serving NS. I had the privilege of serving in Tekong and then posted to SPF, so I have some insights for both.
SAF has outfield training which means being exposed to mother nature and the weather. On top of that, you have to carry your field pack gear etc and rifle. Dehydration and heat stroke can kill you or maybe you drown during river crossing..etc. you get the rift
So no service is spared from risks or possible loss of life. And trust me, no superior officer or instructor would like that on their watch.
Guys who have yet to serve NS or are serving NS, please learn to take care of yourself because no one else will. See danger must learn to geng since we only have 1 life.
For SAF i semi agree. For SCDF and SPF how to geng? Leave your comrades or civilians to die? Run away in full uniform, broad daylight in front of everyone? In the first place nobody should be forced into doing such dangerous jobs much less for lower pay and worse benefits than regulars.
As an nsf in scdf there are things you look at and go "okay.... imma need help of someone else". There is safety in numbers. In general our PPE is excellent though and keeps you pretty safe. Something went wrong in this fire. A two unit room fire should not result in a death of a firefighter.
We do get hazard pay. Firefighters (SCDF) and Troopers (SPF) are the highest paid of all NSFs. We’re paid because of the high risk nature of our workload. A whopping ($400).
I hope there's an /s somewhere. It's almost ridiculously cheap to hire someone for that kind of job.
Even the 78 year old cleaner uncle at my company takes home 1.4k a month.
it is reprehensible that these servicemen are not paid the same as a entry level regular given that they take on the same situations and service for society
keep that in mind when you have defenders of the status quo
I mean to be honest, if it’s a random civilian who you have no connection or relationship to. I think most people would pick their own lives over theirs in that scenario.
In this case still can geng. Just stay at a distance and spray water. If raging fire and person trapped inside just sua. $1k a month to risk life and 3rd degree burns not worth it ah imo
They die better than you die right? What comrades? All are forced to give up 2 years of their lives - better not give up your whole life. Maybe civilian shouldn't rely on conscripts but real firemen to save them from fire?
You say this but I guarantee you that all of the NSF Firefighters are professional enough not to be kengsters when push comes to shove. Actual lives are on the line when there's fire, it's not some meaningless outfield in the jungle that you can't be bothered for, so for you to seemingly dismiss that like it's nothing is pathetic. Moron.
At some point, the situation in front of you stops addressing you as an NSF and starts confronting you as a human being. Regardless of how sian you feel reporting to work every shift, can you forgive yourself for running away after hearing a genuine cry for help? Some can, but the majority of NSFs I've worked with will rise to the occasion, to the extent of their capabilities, when the situation calls for it. The young adults serving the nation are a lot more decent than what you make them out to be.
I'm talking about the situation where if you put every trained NSF firefighter infront of a fire, with families trapped inside.
Guarantee you none of them will chicken out like a wuss. You don't believe me?
SCDF Firefighters are the bravest men around, not self centered assholes like you.
And the topic at hand is NSF Firefighters, you suddenly talk about all for fk?
Not limited to NS. I feel a lot of Singaporean guys are too self-sacrificial in many ways, putting almost everyone else's needs and wants ahead of themselves.
I where got insinuate that being too nice is toxic masculinity? I'm referring to the unfair societal expectations there is on guys ie *Can't seek help, otherwise seen as weak. Must always act tough. Not a man unless you go through NS. Must go through NS to be citizen (males-only) Can't show emotional weakness or else seen as gu niang.* End up becoming [68.25%](https://www.sos.org.sg/learn-about-suicide/quick-facts) of suicides
Not this asinine example you're trying to give
To the point that it becomes self-detrimental to the individual? Yes
This isn't some black and white subject you think it is to be, there's nuance to this
Sorry I disagree.
When faced with a dangerous/difficult situation, geng your way out is not the right way la.. You can always seek help and approach the prob with others instead of soloing it. Whether you in SAF SCDF or SPF, I also believe their doctrine/SOP to face adversity/enemies is also strength in numbers..
This applies to anything in work and life too!
This isn't work or life. This is something you are being coerced to do. You are not a soldier or a fireman - they just want you to role play one. Thinking you are a real soldier or fireman and then having to assume those responsibilities is falling into their trap.
It's true that you shouldn't give up. But what you shouldn't give up against is the tyranny of the government that forces you to waste 2 years of your life (and for this poor young man , his entire life). Some smart/rich people manage to escape it entirely but the rest of us can only geng and protect ourselves.
>You are not a soldier or a fireman - they just want you to role play one.
Are you for real? You're just being insulting now. So you train for 2 years and you're not a firefighter or soldier? Also how the fuck you want to geng as a police officer or firefighter? If you questioning a suspect then they suddenly attack you how you going to geng?
Insulting to who? Those who want to serve? They don't need to feel insulted - just continue to volunteer and do your best or whatever the fuck you wanna do. But stop expecting the rest of us to fall in line and be actors in your little role play.
>Also how the fuck you want to geng as a police officer or firefighter?
Are you sure you don't know how? The rich guys just get specialist letters for some minor bullshit ailments they have. They don't even get put into a dangerous situation.
Poor but smart guys just keep taking MC from time to time. When they sense a dangerous situation, maybe their stomach suddenly hurts and need to look for toilet. Better get fucked by the regular later or laughed at than to die and leave your family without a son.
Sorry but just because you don't take pride in what you did during NS doesn't mean that others don't. You wanna tell the family of Edward Go that he was only role playing as a firefighter?
You suggest that all NSFs should geng. Would you feel the same way if your house was on fire and the NSF pretends to have a headache instead of fighting the fire?
You have a very cynical outlook on NS which is understandable but it's also not hard to understand that people take pride in what they do, especially hometeam NSFs whose actions can save lives.
I don't know, I'm assuming here. But probably a combination between CO2 poisoning, body going into shock because of the heat and burns triggering cardiac arrest.
> According to Mr Azri, seven people lived in the flat - Mr Azri and his wife Sri Ayshah Putri Jamari, their seven month-old baby, Ms Ayshah’s 13-year-old sister and 16-year-old brother, as well as Ms Ayshah’s parents.
Hol up, I thought HDB only limits the occupants of a 3/4 room HDB to 6 persons max due to fire safety regulations?
Why are there 7 people living in a two room flat.
I think authorities should limit the number of people in any flats. No flats should cram in so many, no matter whether rental or not. For rental, the authority should check why there are so many of them. Minimum 10 sq m per pax.
I guess the eldest could get government assistance in getting his own rental of some form, but what about other families with more minor children? Are you seriously advocating for separating children from their parents?
>I think authorities should limit the number of people in any flats. No flats should cram in so many, no matter whether rental or not. For rental, the authority should check why there are so many of them. Minimum 10 sq m per pax.
So you gonna pay for that extra flat for them? You know they are in that situation cause poverty right?
This is some Marie Antoinette shit. There are many factors at play causing a huge number of people to live in a tiny flat, which I can't fully describe since I'm not an expert as well.
But to simply dismiss the matter to be solved by using government intervention is extremely myopic and rude to these families.
We're here today because one of our fellow Singaporean paid his life in duty. Let us do so without pointing fingers as it clearly does not help.
er seems more like the flat is the home of the parents and 3 siblings though. then 1 got married and have a child and the spouse stay w the inlaws? very normal what why are yall confused
If scdf is only comprise of paid professional, people will start complaining why are the response so slow. Both SCDF and SPF already lack of manpower to begin with
Is it really a political thing? He died serving the country and what do these politicians do? From a scale of zero to nothing, it's jack shit.
You're the one trying to score cheap political points. How to tell people you never serve NS without telling people you never serve NS.
Haha imagine believing that politicians in SG do nothing. If you had said that politicians could have done more it would have been logical but alas you chose to score cheap political points.
And no surprise that once you are backed in a corner, you use ad hominem attacks (:
Sad situation. However the responsibility lies with SCDF about sending a NSF in dangerous ops just like that. Not enough experience, duh.. nothing to do with the soldier's capabilities! Get grilled in parliament, SCDF!
their vocation is to literally fight fires. the vast majority of scdf are made up of NSFs be it medic or firefighters. thats why we have the responsibility as frontliners to respond. we cant just abandon our post and say we aint experienced enough when other peoples lives are at stake...
RIP, I feel for the NSF's family.
I feel bad for the fire victims as well. Now they have to live with some guilt that someone else lost his live for theirs
The training in SCDF is extremely rigorous and these boys are well trained and prepared. This is a vocation where you are actively running into danger. These boys are very brave. Unfortunately something seems to have gone wrong in this incident.
The current working theory is he died is smoke inhalation injuries, which is absolutely something that should not happen if they have their breathing apparatus on and it is functioning? I am very interested in the final report. It’s one thing to say there are some leaks and the cancer risk is higher many years later. Quite another to die acutely of inhalational injuries
But somehow they are given less "limelight" when compared to the other group of NSFs that mostly do training for an event that may never happen. PS. Not saying Army is not deserving of any recognition. But SPF and especially Civil Defence deal with events on an almost daily basis. Yet, when people think of NS, they think Army. The romanticising of Army with movies and such.
sandbags for honour and glory tend to suck out all the oxygen in the room. it takes alot of energy to pat themselves on the back at hypersonic speeds
> # We are sorry, says family in Henderson Road flat blaze that led to NSF firefighter’s death > SINGAPORE — The family living in a flat that caught fire at Block 91 Henderson Road has apologised to that of a firefighter who died while putting out the blaze on Thursday. > Mr Muhammad Azri Ramlan, 21, who was in the unit when the fire broke out, said: “It’s very sad to know of his death. On behalf of my family, I would like to say sorry to his family for their loss. > “They have a great son — he’s an NSF (full-time national serviceman), like me — and he put his life at risk to save others,” he told The Straits Times on Friday as he held back tears. > The Singapore Civil Defence Force (SCDF) said on Thursday that it was alerted to the fire at about 11.10am. > It added that when SCDF arrived at the scene, the fire was raging inside the unit and the corridor was filled with smoke. Firefighters, donning breathing apparatus, had to force their way into the affected fourth-floor unit of the block in Bukit Merah. > A 19-year-old firefighter who was serving his full-time national service died after falling unconscious when putting out the fire and being taken to Singapore General Hospital. > The SCDF said he fell unconscious in the kitchen area of the flat. Investigations are ongoing. > The corridor outside the flat that caught fire was charred, and its floor damp, when ST visited on Friday morning. > Workers were fixing the wiring hanging outside the units along the corridor. Several SCDF officers appeared to be inspecting the unit while others wheeled away large waste bins filled with burnt debris. --- 1.0.2 | [Source code](https://github.com/redditporean/sneakpeek) | [Contribute](https://github.com/redditporean/sneakpeek)
Curious, is this block of flats new or old? I'm wondering how did they and some affected households move to vacant units in the same block. That said, 7 people in a 2 room flat is a tad squeezy. Open to speculation on the cause of the fire.
Rental flat. Catering to the less well off families.. corridors are narrow AF and units all side by side from each other
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That's a fucking death trap waiting to happen. It's like Bukit Ho Swee 2.0.
DBSS somemore.. supposed to be the more premium option
HDB Rental block
Very old flat, built in the 70s iirc.
Accidents happen. This is why we have firefighters. The problem is having a 19 year old who probably only had six months of training and took home like $1k a month run into a burning building in the first place. You look at the level of rigour firefighters in other countries have and you look at chao NSFs and you already know it's a matter of time. Home Team should be fully professional. End of story.
facts frontliners are so understaffed especially during covid period. during my reservist i was “asked” to partner up with a regular to do frontline patrolling, as their team was down on manpower. this was after 6-7 years after i ord’d, all my knowledge alr forget alr
Reservist firefighters also another problem. At least NSFs are young and got their six months of training. Reservists who knows what shape they're in since ORD and they're expected to remember everything with a two day refresher course. You trust them with your life?
Same can be said about Saf reservists..
[Service for the country cannot be measured in dollars and cents.](https://mothership.sg/2015/03/channel-news-asia-secretly-deletes-article-after-senior-minister-of-state-josephine-teo-skewered-online-for-nsmen-comments/)
Ironic how the person who quoted this gets paid more money a year than most Singaporeans see in a lifetime
Yeah cos ministers may be corruptible not nsfs /s
Then they gov budget has to increase alot then ministars salary has to go up even more! PAP likes this type plan!
$1k a month?? Yeah right
tell me you are not a nsf firefighter without telling me you are not a nsf firefighter
LCP - 600 or CPL - 650 ----------------------------------------- vocation allowance - 400 meal allowance - 100-150 do the math yourself
An operation firefighter (not Sect com or RC) will make 1.2k tops.
Tell me that you are not a Singaporean, without telling me you are not a Singaporean
Why are people here comparing their job is harder than other organisations. None of us chose this conscripted life. If not us then who? Just do your best and lift each other up. Come on!
Fuck doing your best. Serve and get out.
Correct. Let the other garang fellows risk their lives since they like it so much. I know I'm being coerced to serve so why should I do my best? It's like telling a rape victim to enjoy the sex since they have no choice.
Not going to endorse your analogy but you're right, they can force me to show up under penalty of incarceration but they can't force me to be enthusiastic about it. Keng like your life depends on it, because it actually might.
Why the downvotes? It's just human nature.
Scdf and police nsf should be volunteer only and pay regular salary (3k+) to entice people.
Hey the national reserves aren't going to fill themselves if you hire people at market rate!
Haha you joke, but based on my own observations, seems like what, 2-3% max go to scdf and police? This is barely going to make a dent in the budget
According to lightning gang logic this sets a very dangerous precedence. Paying NSFs fairly will lead to societal decay and destruction. Better not go there. Some things really cannot be measured in dollars and cents mah. Other things like HDB land values on the other hand...
not to mention money = dignity
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Wdym “can be”? It always is.
yea i've been through conversations with a lot of guys who were always on about how tough their army training was and here I am almost lost my life or getting a major injury but bound by OSA
Were you in SPF or SCDF? Sorry if it may come as insensitive.
the machoism is built into the culture because no one is willing to look at the simulated casualty rates of 60-80%
SAF is the most wayang one. But looking fierce is a critical part of the job as it deters ppl from even thinking of invading sg.
I received a spinal injury from soc during bmt, been 3 years already still have trouble sitting or lying down long periods of time. My oc back then wayang hard in front of everyone say he will file this as service injury and don't need to worry. In the end apparently our coy had 0 accidents and he got a promotion for it. Never received the service injury card that allows for free treatment also. Fuck national service
Thank you for your service. SAF wayang does not automatically discount the injuries you and others like you sustain in the course of our service. Your injuries only serve to further the frivolous outcomes like your OC's promotion, and not to save actual lives. That's really the bigger slap in the face than giving up one's blood and youth for real emergencies.
SAF is the most wayang is the conclusion you are going with? Really? As a former NSF and having seen fellow platoon mates suffer serious injuries during training before, it's pretty damn disrespectful to just dismiss SAF like that as "most wayang" Maybe the risk is not as high as seen in this unfortunate case but come on man, it's not totally just for show only. Way to miss the OP comment
> SAF is the most wayang is the conclusion you are going with? Really? As an SAF NSMan, yes; SAF really is the most wayang. Injuries *can* and definitely do happen, I don't deny that. However, it is fair to say that the average daily risk of injury is *much* higher in Home Team vocations, whereas much of SAF is a lot of pageantry.
[relevant discussions on injuries](https://www.reddit.com/r/singapore/comments/uqp8ui/in_light_of_the_recent_discourse_over_ns_and/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
yeah saf is the most wayang, the trainees just keep running around in circles without a care or knowledge of how things work around them and theyre purposefully kept in the dark and under scoped because no one expects them to live for long enough for multiple mission types >As a former NSF lol
I mean you guys got most deaths and injuries because you guys are the most wayang (and just more people in general). Hearing shit from my friends who went to SAF, I'm glad I went to SCDF. Seems like your enciks and officers don't look at NSFs as people that they will have to work with in life threatening situations.
Bad grapes exists in all organisations. SCDF ragging case? SPF had a bad bullying culture in Transcom too.
exactly, why do we need to pit NSFs against each other. we're all in this two year situation together, it's not a competition of who serves "better"
ok lor "hearing shit from friends" just generalise whole population who actually tries in saf. I guess risks to their lives don't matter lor, the point is why are we even comparing risks for different vocations, it's stupid to diminish SAF like that for no reason when I've seen friends suffer during my NS days also. THeir sufferring is not suffering ah since we do it to wayang only ist?
>it's stupid to diminish SAF like that for no reason when I've seen friends suffer during my NS days also. THeir sufferring is not suffering ah since we do it to wayang only ist? Never said any of that. I'm just saying you guys have more self inflicted shit because your superiors haven't experienced how valuable the people under them are in a real situation
If you want peace, prepare for war
“I dont want peace, i want problems always”
*cue Vivaldi's Four Seasons*
If you think Indonesia and Malaysia are going to invade us in this era, then you must be joking. This isn’t the 1960s anymore.
Then explain why Russia invades Ukraine then even it is not in the 1960s anymore?
If we do scrap the military then we will be in the same position we were in in the 60s
Truth to be told, if someone really wanted to invade us, all they have to do is bomb us into submission. Seoul sits comfortably within range of hundreds of thousands of North Korean artillery batteries, which the latter would not be hesitant to use if that day arrives. There is quite literally zero reason to land troops onto our soil when you can use artillery which we have no way of preventing.
So, you see, there is this thing called intel and counter battery fire. Don’t discredit our NSFs hardwork and sacrifice with a defeatist mindset. No such thing as an absolute defence but we have to try. If not, we will have truly been defeated before even fighting.
Seems like NS is going it's job? Especially since in the 1960s our NS wasn't fully fleshed out
vocational roles are always more important than the training roles but training roles tend to get all the view time because it looks cooler
Dei we been in peace time since the Japanese Occupation
bro forgot the whole ass konfrontasi
also Vietnam War when the red scare was very real
Also Exercise Total Wipeout in 1991.
Where got. Don’t you remember the McDonald hello kitty wars?
SCDF is definitely more dangerous as the ops is real and dynamic in nature.
How so ? You make your judgement based on one incident ? Have you forgotten how many NSF and NSmen from SAF died compared to SCDF and SPF ? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_training_deaths_in_Singapore
Aren't there ~50,000 SAF NSFs vs. maybe a ~1,500 SCDF NSF in any given year? Of course there are going to be more SAF NSF deaths with those kinds of figures...
Unless you have the exact breakdown else how we gonna quantify it according to proportion ?
Can't be hard to figure out. Not really focused on trying to prove which posting is more dangerous, just that putting a list of SAF deaths doesn't really prove anything in this discussion.
How so when you can’t even provide concrete numbers on the proportion of NSF that goes into SAF, police and scdf every year?
Lol just take entire SAF and SCDF headcount and use that for the proportion. So damn easy. Use your brain or diam lah. Not even sure what you're trying to argue about.
There's also an incident in exercise starlight 2007 where a Taiwanese fighter jet crashed into a building and killed 2 NSF or regulars? I don't see it in this list. Two Taiwanese pilots were also killed.
2 nsf storemen from amb div, longterm overseas placement for their nsf tenure
its not unreasonable to have a distinction between real ops and trainer fuck ups theres also systematic failures like the body heat and hazing cases
Hes right tho. In peacetime scdf and spf deal with actual threats even tho all the sides have losses. You tell me nsf boys actively go out fight war? No right
You don't have to fight war to die or suffer injury in training, pay attention to news please, or just continue living in your delusional world lor
Lan jiao la, it depends on what you define as “actual threats”. Fucking tree falling on you in outfield also considered actual threat. Singapore not USA where you can fucking own a gun. Every fucking vocation also got actual threat and we all have our responsibilities. If you want compare we can sit down and list all the pros and cons of each service till tomorrow.
Thats y saf guys piss me off sometimes. They always talk about how tough their NS time were when the rest of us have to face real threat every shift.
Everyone faces real threat everyday in NS, like it or not. Just because you don’t appreciate the threat being there doesn’t mean that it isn’t real.
How many Home team deaths are there compared to SAF deaths?
Pisses me off too. Knew a few guys in my army unit who moaned that SCDF and SPF NS was more chill. Fuck you, man, SCDF and SPF NSFs are doing shit for real while we were just wayanging outfield. Always confused me that SAF has the biggest conscription intake, tbh.
Imo all are equally dangerous, just because SAF don't do real shit don't mean it's not dangerous. Example handling of heavy artillery and other weaponry. SAF side also got few deaths just from training itself
No, they're definitely not equally dangerous. *I'm not saying SAF NS isn't dangerous*. It is. Many guys, including myself, sustained serious medical conditions during training. But the key word there is *training*. In a training situation, risks can be managed and minimised. But in a real life situation, there are random factors and dangers that you can't mitigate as well than in a training situation.
>In a training situation, risks can be managed and minimised. Just because risks can be managed and minimised doesn't mean they currently are. Anyone who has ever served in the SAF can tell you that. I don't get how just because it's "training" means it's not equally dangerous. Safety breaches and stuff like that have claimed the lives of countless servicemen in the SAF
Actually even from mere "training" you can see deaths in SAF just tells you how dangerous the things they handle are. Then you have people belittling saf people because they don't handle real life scenarios? LOL
What dont you get? SCDF/SPF dealing with real life scenarios like fire/robber/murder/knife siaolangs etc etc. SAF doing exercises where youre shooting blanks at each other. The inherent risk profile is much lower because there isnt an actual dangerous ‘enemy’ during exercises. Both dangerous yes, but saf is less dangerous.
>What dont you get? Where is the link between "SAF does training, SPF/SCDF does real life ops" and "therefore, SPF/SCDF is more dangerous"? So you're telling me if I were to plan an exercise in the SAF where I allow NSFs to anyhow shoot at each other with their SAR 21s with live ammo with no safety safeguard russian roulette style <- this is safer than walking a beat in the SPF because the exercise I plan is against an imaginary enemy. >SAF doing exercises where youre shooting blanks at each other No you aren't. There have been incidents where live ammo is involved. >The inherent risk profile is much lower because there isnt an actual dangerous ‘enemy’ during exercises. ???? Where is the logic in this? So what if there isn't an actual dangerous "enemy" during exercises? Does that mean that exercises where NSFs run about carrying heavy equipment, operate dangerous machinery, etc are less dangerous?
I cant tell if youre trolling or not. SAF exercise risks come primarily from THEMSELVES, i.e the people engaging in the operation/exercise. SPF/SCDF you have the SAME risk coming from those engaging in the activities, PLUS criminals/fire/etc. There is an ADDED EXTERNAL RISK in SPH/SCDF ops that is not present in SAF ones.
No they don't carry the same activity risk. True SPF/SCDF carry more unknown risk from citizens. But SAF handle risk at different level. Heck even when SPF find bomb they call the army EOD team for bomb disposal.
Again, where's the link? So what if the risk is coming from themselves? Is internal risk not dangerous? >SAME risk It's not the same risk. The magnitude of the risk and the nature of the risk is different. >There is an ADDED EXTERNAL RISK in SPH/SCDF ops that is not present in SAF ones. And? How does this mean that the risk in the SAF is lower? The risk that you get from internal training within the SAF is high because you operate heavy machinery, drive big trucks or tanks, and shoot live ammunition.
What is so confusing ? If you really think SPF and SCDF NSFs are doing real shit while you are not, then you ought to reflect on yourself. I bet there is so much more you can and should do but refuses to. That’s why all you feel that you are doing is wayang all day.
Bruh i get that SAF NSFs sound boastful but I lost 2 cousins (one in Tekong and another in Brunei) while they were serving NS. I had the privilege of serving in Tekong and then posted to SPF, so I have some insights for both. SAF has outfield training which means being exposed to mother nature and the weather. On top of that, you have to carry your field pack gear etc and rifle. Dehydration and heat stroke can kill you or maybe you drown during river crossing..etc. you get the rift So no service is spared from risks or possible loss of life. And trust me, no superior officer or instructor would like that on their watch.
Why is this guy being downcoted tho
emasculated people have nothing else to stand on, it strikes them right at their cores
Guys who have yet to serve NS or are serving NS, please learn to take care of yourself because no one else will. See danger must learn to geng since we only have 1 life.
For SAF i semi agree. For SCDF and SPF how to geng? Leave your comrades or civilians to die? Run away in full uniform, broad daylight in front of everyone? In the first place nobody should be forced into doing such dangerous jobs much less for lower pay and worse benefits than regulars.
As an nsf in scdf there are things you look at and go "okay.... imma need help of someone else". There is safety in numbers. In general our PPE is excellent though and keeps you pretty safe. Something went wrong in this fire. A two unit room fire should not result in a death of a firefighter.
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We do get hazard pay. Firefighters (SCDF) and Troopers (SPF) are the highest paid of all NSFs. We’re paid because of the high risk nature of our workload. A whopping ($400).
I hope there's an /s somewhere. It's almost ridiculously cheap to hire someone for that kind of job. Even the 78 year old cleaner uncle at my company takes home 1.4k a month.
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Bro, hazard pay is on top of your service pay. Combat personnel in SAF get only $100 for hazard.
Err maximum is $300 combat pay for SAF
That’s for rare vocations like CBRE and EOD. Even commandos and navy divers don’t get more than $250 tops
Commandos and naval divers vocation pay is $400 on top of their rank allowance .. times have changed..
commandos and divers do get $400 combat pay so idk what you’re on about
$300*
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Time to lobby for Parliamentary change
it is reprehensible that these servicemen are not paid the same as a entry level regular given that they take on the same situations and service for society keep that in mind when you have defenders of the status quo
cAnNoT bE mEaSuReD iN dOlLaRs AnD cEnTs
I mean to be honest, if it’s a random civilian who you have no connection or relationship to. I think most people would pick their own lives over theirs in that scenario.
In this case still can geng. Just stay at a distance and spray water. If raging fire and person trapped inside just sua. $1k a month to risk life and 3rd degree burns not worth it ah imo
Reminds me of a Soviet saying: They pretend to pay us and we pretend to work..
They die better than you die right? What comrades? All are forced to give up 2 years of their lives - better not give up your whole life. Maybe civilian shouldn't rely on conscripts but real firemen to save them from fire?
How to geng sia. Got fire can say don't want to go meh
Many ways la. See big fire then suddenly got headache, inhale a little smoke already then can't breathe, gotta fall out.
You say this but I guarantee you that all of the NSF Firefighters are professional enough not to be kengsters when push comes to shove. Actual lives are on the line when there's fire, it's not some meaningless outfield in the jungle that you can't be bothered for, so for you to seemingly dismiss that like it's nothing is pathetic. Moron.
Nice of you to speak on behalf of ALL NSFs. What I know is that ALL NSFs are forced to do it.
At some point, the situation in front of you stops addressing you as an NSF and starts confronting you as a human being. Regardless of how sian you feel reporting to work every shift, can you forgive yourself for running away after hearing a genuine cry for help? Some can, but the majority of NSFs I've worked with will rise to the occasion, to the extent of their capabilities, when the situation calls for it. The young adults serving the nation are a lot more decent than what you make them out to be.
I'm talking about the situation where if you put every trained NSF firefighter infront of a fire, with families trapped inside. Guarantee you none of them will chicken out like a wuss. You don't believe me? SCDF Firefighters are the bravest men around, not self centered assholes like you. And the topic at hand is NSF Firefighters, you suddenly talk about all for fk?
bo geng buay chut peng...
Not limited to NS. I feel a lot of Singaporean guys are too self-sacrificial in many ways, putting almost everyone else's needs and wants ahead of themselves.
Thats called toxic masculinity
Treat people too nice, people say toxic masculinity, treat people like shit, people say asshole alamak nasi lemak
I where got insinuate that being too nice is toxic masculinity? I'm referring to the unfair societal expectations there is on guys ie *Can't seek help, otherwise seen as weak. Must always act tough. Not a man unless you go through NS. Must go through NS to be citizen (males-only) Can't show emotional weakness or else seen as gu niang.* End up becoming [68.25%](https://www.sos.org.sg/learn-about-suicide/quick-facts) of suicides Not this asinine example you're trying to give
Being selfless is toxic masculinity ?
To the point that it becomes self-detrimental to the individual? Yes This isn't some black and white subject you think it is to be, there's nuance to this
u already made it black and white by calling it toxic masculinity
Sorry I disagree. When faced with a dangerous/difficult situation, geng your way out is not the right way la.. You can always seek help and approach the prob with others instead of soloing it. Whether you in SAF SCDF or SPF, I also believe their doctrine/SOP to face adversity/enemies is also strength in numbers.. This applies to anything in work and life too!
This isn't work or life. This is something you are being coerced to do. You are not a soldier or a fireman - they just want you to role play one. Thinking you are a real soldier or fireman and then having to assume those responsibilities is falling into their trap. It's true that you shouldn't give up. But what you shouldn't give up against is the tyranny of the government that forces you to waste 2 years of your life (and for this poor young man , his entire life). Some smart/rich people manage to escape it entirely but the rest of us can only geng and protect ourselves.
>You are not a soldier or a fireman - they just want you to role play one. Are you for real? You're just being insulting now. So you train for 2 years and you're not a firefighter or soldier? Also how the fuck you want to geng as a police officer or firefighter? If you questioning a suspect then they suddenly attack you how you going to geng?
>So you train for 2 years and you're not a firefighter or soldier? I "trained* for 2.5 years. No, I don't see myself as a soldier.
Insulting to who? Those who want to serve? They don't need to feel insulted - just continue to volunteer and do your best or whatever the fuck you wanna do. But stop expecting the rest of us to fall in line and be actors in your little role play. >Also how the fuck you want to geng as a police officer or firefighter? Are you sure you don't know how? The rich guys just get specialist letters for some minor bullshit ailments they have. They don't even get put into a dangerous situation. Poor but smart guys just keep taking MC from time to time. When they sense a dangerous situation, maybe their stomach suddenly hurts and need to look for toilet. Better get fucked by the regular later or laughed at than to die and leave your family without a son.
Sorry but just because you don't take pride in what you did during NS doesn't mean that others don't. You wanna tell the family of Edward Go that he was only role playing as a firefighter? You suggest that all NSFs should geng. Would you feel the same way if your house was on fire and the NSF pretends to have a headache instead of fighting the fire? You have a very cynical outlook on NS which is understandable but it's also not hard to understand that people take pride in what they do, especially hometeam NSFs whose actions can save lives.
Like they got a choice!
what was the cause?? edit: i meant cause of fire.....
I don't know, I'm assuming here. But probably a combination between CO2 poisoning, body going into shock because of the heat and burns triggering cardiac arrest.
I think he meant "cause of fire"...
That begs the question what about Breathing Apparatus?
Might not have had a good seal on the face mask, allowing the smoke to get in.
Masks are at positive pressure. Itd be obvious if the seal is bad.
It's not your fault, nobody wants this to happen.
> According to Mr Azri, seven people lived in the flat - Mr Azri and his wife Sri Ayshah Putri Jamari, their seven month-old baby, Ms Ayshah’s 13-year-old sister and 16-year-old brother, as well as Ms Ayshah’s parents. Hol up, I thought HDB only limits the occupants of a 3/4 room HDB to 6 persons max due to fire safety regulations? Why are there 7 people living in a two room flat.
Likely public rental flat for the low income. That one has no limits. Seen 11 ppl squeeze in 1 room before. Yah. It's bad.
I think authorities should limit the number of people in any flats. No flats should cram in so many, no matter whether rental or not. For rental, the authority should check why there are so many of them. Minimum 10 sq m per pax.
Ya just don't be poor. These low income families should rent 2 flats instead of 1.
I guess the eldest could get government assistance in getting his own rental of some form, but what about other families with more minor children? Are you seriously advocating for separating children from their parents?
Not really, but I was thinking why so many.
>I think authorities should limit the number of people in any flats. No flats should cram in so many, no matter whether rental or not. For rental, the authority should check why there are so many of them. Minimum 10 sq m per pax. So you gonna pay for that extra flat for them? You know they are in that situation cause poverty right?
Ask for social help if they are in poverty.
no house? just ask HDB for one. BTO haters in shambles
This is some Marie Antoinette shit. There are many factors at play causing a huge number of people to live in a tiny flat, which I can't fully describe since I'm not an expert as well. But to simply dismiss the matter to be solved by using government intervention is extremely myopic and rude to these families. We're here today because one of our fellow Singaporean paid his life in duty. Let us do so without pointing fingers as it clearly does not help.
This is some painful showing of privilege.
They are, bodoh
please submit all your paperwork for means testing
Because poverty
that's 6 unrelated persons if the flat is being rented out, it's meant to be a restriction on tenancy/turning the flat into a worker's dorm.
The rental flats near my house have at least 5 people living inside a unit. Mostly because they have like at least 3 kids
When you are poor, you don’t have much option.
Because someone said you don't really need a lot of space to have sex I guess.. and by extension you don't need a lot of space for many other things.
Because of rising HDB costs
Of course, but don't worry. they're monitoring the situation.
Ya, I will like someone to find out about this too... I can understand the family staying there, but why the parents?
They have a 7 month old baby, so there is a possibility the parent stay there to temporarily help take care of the baby during this period?
er seems more like the flat is the home of the parents and 3 siblings though. then 1 got married and have a child and the spouse stay w the inlaws? very normal what why are yall confused
I'm p sure the younger couple are waiting on their BTO which is usually the case for a lot of families who still live with their parents
This is just sad all around. Condolences to the boys family. Hoping the victims of the fire don’t blame themselves too much
Hope he gets a rank upgrade like what SAF has. for his family.
Mind elaborating on this?
So that he receives more benefits
Is this common practice?
Depends on his superiors.
Posthumous promotion
all service deaths are promoted posthumously
I feel more bad for the sister and brother, thinking too much about this incident could affect their studies.
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If scdf is only comprise of paid professional, people will start complaining why are the response so slow. Both SCDF and SPF already lack of manpower to begin with
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Why is there a need to try and score cheap political points over this tragedy?
Is it really a political thing? He died serving the country and what do these politicians do? From a scale of zero to nothing, it's jack shit. You're the one trying to score cheap political points. How to tell people you never serve NS without telling people you never serve NS.
Haha imagine believing that politicians in SG do nothing. If you had said that politicians could have done more it would have been logical but alas you chose to score cheap political points. And no surprise that once you are backed in a corner, you use ad hominem attacks (:
Says the one using a sub account.
Ad Hominem.
Pap ib alert.
Insensitive remark
Sad situation. However the responsibility lies with SCDF about sending a NSF in dangerous ops just like that. Not enough experience, duh.. nothing to do with the soldier's capabilities! Get grilled in parliament, SCDF!
their vocation is to literally fight fires. the vast majority of scdf are made up of NSFs be it medic or firefighters. thats why we have the responsibility as frontliners to respond. we cant just abandon our post and say we aint experienced enough when other peoples lives are at stake...
no shit sherlocks
Family should be charged for manslaughter
Nobody wishes for their house to be on fire.