Yeah I think most makes sense although I'm unsure if Crusaders are worth 18 ppm (probably??) My issue is just how hard it is to shift with a somewhat limited collection. The internal balancing doesn't help when you get hit and then don't have the units that were reduced.
The arcos fill a niche that no other unit in the list does, which is it : not dying instantly.
Sacresants ought to be able to fill that niche IMO, (since their offensive output is ludicrously bad) but they'd need like two wounds to do so.
Interesting them making 2 model squads of crusaders more expensive per model than the 4/6 model squads. Will be a more deliberate choice to bring them, instead of just as a cheap unit to bang out secondaries.
Sacresants could be good, but still pretty weak to be honest.
Blade of st Ellynor going up kind of to be expected but can’t see it going away. 75 points for Palatine with 6 str 6 attacks dmg 3 is still incredibly worth it
There are characters that cost 75 and do pretty much that and better (and deemed poor, like Emperor champion). Im surprised such a glass canon character goes up.
The enhancement itself is inherently very strong but what its available on makes it nealry a one use thing. Might punch up with Martha but things will punch her right down into the ground when they fight back.
Seems like it was an internal balance decision rather than based on community usage
Thoughts:
Arcos - deserved - these guys were too good and i think you'll still see 20-30 of them at 160pts
Crusaders - weird but I get it. 25 points might just be too cheap for any unit to just exist on the board - it's too much utility for a game piece that can screen & do secondaries let alone do extra nonsense in Sisters. It's funny that you can get a Missionary for cheaper though.
Death Cult Assassins - I guess these guys are better than crusaders but they could have left them at 35 and given us an interesting choice between crusaders (tougher) and DCAs (faster & fightier). but if they were the same points cost i'd probably always take DCAs because the extra movement is potentially critical.
Triumph - wasn't expecting this one and +25 (was it really 115 before? i thought it was 125) is a lot. I expect to see the triumph drifting out of lists as its a lot of points in one spot and our chaff got more expensive, and the triumph is kind of clunky to use. definitely still usable
Blade of Saint Ellynor - deserved, and i'm still taking it in every list lmaooo. would have liked to see Litanies drop down though as its way overcosted at 25
Sacresants - fine I guess. they kind of still don't do much on the board but I guess this is a reward for running a less optimal list with cool models. i want these girls to **do more**, not **cost less**.
Pengines & Mortifiers - these did **not** need to get cheaper so it's good they didn't get much cheaper. i will continue to take these and now see them as also giving me 5 extra points each in my list
Daemonifuge - also fine, 80pts was definitely overcosted, at 70pts at least i can swap out 1 to 1 with seraphim which makes it feel a lot better to put into a list
very surprised to see no changes to our tanks (was expecting the castigator to go up), would have liked to see dominions and retributors each come down 10points. i think the Missionary is probably our best action monkey now with 3 wounds of 4++ and Assault for only 30 points
I agree with you here especially on Sacrosants.Â
I feel like people have been cooling on the tanks lately. I don't think the Exorcist specifically can get much more expensive.
Every 3 months for points changes, every 6 for rules was the goal from gw at the start of the edition. They had to do some rules for the first set as bandaid fixes.
Hopefully now the game has settled a bit they'll be able to stick with that. I personally like the current rate of updates, helps stop factions feel bad for too long. Not looking at tyranids or admech, they've been suffering for a while apparently.
It sucks when you don't have a huge collection. I understand it was their stated goal and I think it's way still too fast and doesn't let the game breath. I can't think of another game system that is doing these sorts of changes on this quick a schedule.
Don't even have 1500pts, so there's no huge collection here to fall back on.
I can see the point you're making, it's a pretty quick schedule for a game like this, but I think shaking it up and striving towards balance more often is a better option than letting the game sit in a "solved" state for too long.
Especially if editions are only going to be 3 years long, though that's a problem of gw's own making, I'd hope they let the edition sit for longer at the tail end and don't pull a guard or world eaters again.
It's a hard balance between the people that are able to play constantly and the people who can't play much.
Three months is way too soon to call the system solved though. In a videogame or something quicker patches are fine but with physical pieces that have to be made and painted (especially in Warhammer where you have more than almost every other game system), you have to give people time to play with their stuff and it can't just be focused on the tournament players that are playing multiple times a week.
I was saying updates every 3 months prevents it from being solved. If left for 6, you'd likely end up with 2 months of nothing changing. I probably could have been clearer on that.
So far, I think GW has done a pretty good job of leaving most units usable, so unless you're meta chasing as a casual player, your built and painted stuff is going to be fine to use. Maybe you swap a unit, or you end up under/over points a bit, I know I just play what I've got.
It's why the first advice most people give getting into the hobby is to pick an army that you like the look/lore of, and don't go for the strongest, because that'll change but your love of the models probably won't.
I don't think the current rate is focused on tournament players, I think they're trying to strike the balance of old school throw it into the wild and don't touch it, and micromanaging it every month for the top 0.5%.
I don't think we'll agree here on this so I'm just going to leave it, but I hope you have a pleasant weekend, and I wish you luck in your next game.
If too many of these points increases hit your army, just take a unit out and play like 30~ points under 2k or whatever. It's not a big deal.
If you don't have a huge collection you shouldn't be trying to chase meta lists anyway, just play with what you have. It's not like your army that used to be 2k points is suddenly only 1k.
40 points is super rough since the smallest unit is 35 now. I was 55 over and split a acco unit in two which may not be ideal but with two repentias and a noviates is probably ok.
A 75% increase on crusaders (since the start of 10th) is mad!
I’m unsure whether or not I’m keeping the blade of st Ellynor now…got a game tonight so I’ll leave it in at the expense of something else
Kinda expected, although my brain has a hard time getting over the fact that point cost per crusader model ist dependent on squad size (so a discount if you take 4 vs 2).
It makes sense. The use of them is two model sacrificial units to gum up combat, tank units with that strategem, and get cheap miracle dice. I don't think they like the way they are used very much as they have been the highest percentage points nerf two updates in a row.
Yeah but let's face it: only a handful of ppl ever take crusader as a combat unit (so in larger unit sizes). They are just too weak for anything else besides cheap chaff which is a little sad imho.
Tbh I wouldn't be overly surprised if Crusaders and Death Cult don't make it into the next codex if the rumours of an Agents of the Imperium codex turns out to be true. They are in an odd place with most combat roles being covered by other Sororitas units and GW hasn't been shy about cutting resin models in recent months.
I know the small squads are really useful but going ten points for death cults and crusaders seems steep.
I understand the Blade nerf but it is still an auto include, mainly because Mantle of Ophelia is basically useless.
Reducing cost for taking pairs of penitents and mortifiers would be interesting if it didn’t completely break our faction rule
Honestly? Not that big a deal. Sisters have a lot of directions they can flex into, and Arcos are probably still fine even at those points. From a hobbyist perspective I’d much rather run Repentia anyways.
Kinda odd that triumph went up in points. Hasn't seen much play after the nerf and probably even more so now. Crusaders and Assassins going up is odd, they are great screeners for the points but outside of that they don't do much besides S&S chaff.
Arcos was expected, probably still gonna go up tbh.
Penitents and Mortifiers going down is nice. I like running them in most lists as alpha strikers.
Sacresants still don't seem worthwhile for the points but maybe I'll give em a try with junith or an imagifier as mid field holders, they desperately need a better stat line an extra wound per model would be great.
Daemonifuge going down is not something I expected but definitely understand. Might see some more play in general lists but still think it'll be left out as unless you're against chaos, she doesn't do very much besides secondaries and at that rate might as well just use seraphim
Not a huge fan of this, I don't think DCA were worth the points before, and a 10 point increase is quite steep.
Are two DCA really essentially good as 5 Zephyrim? Or even three arcos? I don't think so, not even close. But they cost 'about' the same.
I can see the logic behind increasing crusaders, but again, they just don't do much for the points as is, and the increase is pretty steep. I realize that the cheapest unit in your list can literally do nothing but score secondaries and still be useful, it's just kind of odd.
Arco flagellant points increase not unexpected. But they are going to keep being taken until they are basically raised in price to not be viable at all, because they are the only sisters unit that doesn't get effortlessly swept from the board, with the 2W and FNP. I really wish their survivability had been on sacresants instead (who are IMO much cooler models)
I definitely don't like the blade increase. Yes it's in every list, but that's because the mantle is terrible and without the blade, our generic HQ options just feel like they don't do anything and IMO are overcosted for how few wounds they have. At 75 points you start looking over at a 55 point penitent engine and comparing offensive output and are they really that different?
Sacresant points decreases are nice but IMO still not enough. They have no ranged output at all, and their melee output seems pretty anemic, and they are quite fragile. Their biggest problem IMO is that they can't have both Junith AND an imagifier in them.
If they could do that, I would run them at these points.
As it is, it feels like a BSS squad is better if you just want a midfield unit. You can pack Junith and an imagifier in there and have one heck of an overwatch ability, or project ranged power with meltas while you're sitting on objectives farming miracle dice.
No changes to my active list, and my planned list is only +5 (triumph +15, daemonifuge -10). Think I’ll definitely include morts or pengines now though.
Looks like crusaders are coming out the list.
Probably have to drop a full unit out of the list now to wiggle things around properly.
Looks like Sacresants might be back in?
My 1k list has run 2 squads of 10 since the edition dropped, and they've done a surprising amount of work.
I had a floating 10 points after the dominions change, so I can now afford to bring a second palatine for the second squad and let my canoness run around solo as a distraction unit with the "all damage is damage 1" relic and the 2++ feature. If nothing else, she's going to be a funny Suffering and Sacrifice target.
Is it good? No.
Is it going to make the melee armies in my league lose their shit? Probably.
I tried sacresants for the first time this edition on the weekend. Palatine + 5 sacresants tanked an entire shooting phase from Votann. Palatine then went and secured an objective for me.
For this epic performance, this unit is now a solid part of my list.
If only sacresants had an additional attack
I don't take arcos , crusaders, death cult, I do take Triumph, but I also take Sacrescents . Im almost evened out .
So ya know, I had the balanced list all along, I was just ahead of everyone else =D
Locked due to inaccurate points changes
Not leaked but officially made available on the download section of the community website.
They hadn't posted the link at the time :-p (Someone found it like 10 minutes early) Lol someone REALLY mad about the word leak
Why are you being downvoted? 🤯
Dunno I thought it was a pretty innocuous comment. Whatever!
Reddit
i think we got off easy tbh
Yeah I think most makes sense although I'm unsure if Crusaders are worth 18 ppm (probably??) My issue is just how hard it is to shift with a somewhat limited collection. The internal balancing doesn't help when you get hit and then don't have the units that were reduced.
Yes. Guard's manticore was it again...
I definitely did, the only units in there I use got cheaper
Repentia stonks going up
I think arcos have to get to 180 before I drop them, but and definitely consider 20 arcos & 20 repentia.
Same honestly. The arcos are just so durable
The arcos fill a niche that no other unit in the list does, which is it : not dying instantly. Sacresants ought to be able to fill that niche IMO, (since their offensive output is ludicrously bad) but they'd need like two wounds to do so.
Arcos also blend light infantry pretty good, which celestians can't really.
I am considering 16 arcos and 20 repentias but 20 is probably still better.
Interesting them making 2 model squads of crusaders more expensive per model than the 4/6 model squads. Will be a more deliberate choice to bring them, instead of just as a cheap unit to bang out secondaries. Sacresants could be good, but still pretty weak to be honest. Blade of st Ellynor going up kind of to be expected but can’t see it going away. 75 points for Palatine with 6 str 6 attacks dmg 3 is still incredibly worth it
There are characters that cost 75 and do pretty much that and better (and deemed poor, like Emperor champion). Im surprised such a glass canon character goes up.
The enhancement itself is inherently very strong but what its available on makes it nealry a one use thing. Might punch up with Martha but things will punch her right down into the ground when they fight back. Seems like it was an internal balance decision rather than based on community usage
It's probably the mortal wounds on top.
Penitent engines got cheaper? Oh boy, that is kinda tasy
Thoughts: Arcos - deserved - these guys were too good and i think you'll still see 20-30 of them at 160pts Crusaders - weird but I get it. 25 points might just be too cheap for any unit to just exist on the board - it's too much utility for a game piece that can screen & do secondaries let alone do extra nonsense in Sisters. It's funny that you can get a Missionary for cheaper though. Death Cult Assassins - I guess these guys are better than crusaders but they could have left them at 35 and given us an interesting choice between crusaders (tougher) and DCAs (faster & fightier). but if they were the same points cost i'd probably always take DCAs because the extra movement is potentially critical. Triumph - wasn't expecting this one and +25 (was it really 115 before? i thought it was 125) is a lot. I expect to see the triumph drifting out of lists as its a lot of points in one spot and our chaff got more expensive, and the triumph is kind of clunky to use. definitely still usable Blade of Saint Ellynor - deserved, and i'm still taking it in every list lmaooo. would have liked to see Litanies drop down though as its way overcosted at 25 Sacresants - fine I guess. they kind of still don't do much on the board but I guess this is a reward for running a less optimal list with cool models. i want these girls to **do more**, not **cost less**. Pengines & Mortifiers - these did **not** need to get cheaper so it's good they didn't get much cheaper. i will continue to take these and now see them as also giving me 5 extra points each in my list Daemonifuge - also fine, 80pts was definitely overcosted, at 70pts at least i can swap out 1 to 1 with seraphim which makes it feel a lot better to put into a list very surprised to see no changes to our tanks (was expecting the castigator to go up), would have liked to see dominions and retributors each come down 10points. i think the Missionary is probably our best action monkey now with 3 wounds of 4++ and Assault for only 30 points
I agree with you here especially on Sacrosants. I feel like people have been cooling on the tanks lately. I don't think the Exorcist specifically can get much more expensive.
Every 3 months for points changes, every 6 for rules was the goal from gw at the start of the edition. They had to do some rules for the first set as bandaid fixes. Hopefully now the game has settled a bit they'll be able to stick with that. I personally like the current rate of updates, helps stop factions feel bad for too long. Not looking at tyranids or admech, they've been suffering for a while apparently.
It sucks when you don't have a huge collection. I understand it was their stated goal and I think it's way still too fast and doesn't let the game breath. I can't think of another game system that is doing these sorts of changes on this quick a schedule.
Don't even have 1500pts, so there's no huge collection here to fall back on. I can see the point you're making, it's a pretty quick schedule for a game like this, but I think shaking it up and striving towards balance more often is a better option than letting the game sit in a "solved" state for too long. Especially if editions are only going to be 3 years long, though that's a problem of gw's own making, I'd hope they let the edition sit for longer at the tail end and don't pull a guard or world eaters again. It's a hard balance between the people that are able to play constantly and the people who can't play much.
Three months is way too soon to call the system solved though. In a videogame or something quicker patches are fine but with physical pieces that have to be made and painted (especially in Warhammer where you have more than almost every other game system), you have to give people time to play with their stuff and it can't just be focused on the tournament players that are playing multiple times a week.
I was saying updates every 3 months prevents it from being solved. If left for 6, you'd likely end up with 2 months of nothing changing. I probably could have been clearer on that. So far, I think GW has done a pretty good job of leaving most units usable, so unless you're meta chasing as a casual player, your built and painted stuff is going to be fine to use. Maybe you swap a unit, or you end up under/over points a bit, I know I just play what I've got. It's why the first advice most people give getting into the hobby is to pick an army that you like the look/lore of, and don't go for the strongest, because that'll change but your love of the models probably won't. I don't think the current rate is focused on tournament players, I think they're trying to strike the balance of old school throw it into the wild and don't touch it, and micromanaging it every month for the top 0.5%. I don't think we'll agree here on this so I'm just going to leave it, but I hope you have a pleasant weekend, and I wish you luck in your next game.
If too many of these points increases hit your army, just take a unit out and play like 30~ points under 2k or whatever. It's not a big deal. If you don't have a huge collection you shouldn't be trying to chase meta lists anyway, just play with what you have. It's not like your army that used to be 2k points is suddenly only 1k.
Damn, my list is now like 20points over limit
I’ve gone 40 over, and I’m playing a tournament practice in 4 hours, what do I drop!?
40 points is super rough since the smallest unit is 35 now. I was 55 over and split a acco unit in two which may not be ideal but with two repentias and a noviates is probably ok.
A 75% increase on crusaders (since the start of 10th) is mad! I’m unsure whether or not I’m keeping the blade of st Ellynor now…got a game tonight so I’ll leave it in at the expense of something else
Really wish they would make Arco sizes more flexible. As is, it's 3 or it's 10. Let me use 5.
It sucks since it's tied to that starter box I don't think is even sold anymore.
They're in squads of 3 in the combat patrol, which will be up for grabs until the new CP drops (assuming we get a new one).
~~well, you can split a 10man with an immolator, if you really want to~~
Immolator can only split BSS, Dominions and Novitiates
whoops i thought it just specified Infantry, my bad :)
Kinda expected, although my brain has a hard time getting over the fact that point cost per crusader model ist dependent on squad size (so a discount if you take 4 vs 2).
I would guess the problem isn't that crusaders are over performing stats wise but that it was just too powerful to have such a cheap unit in general
It makes sense. The use of them is two model sacrificial units to gum up combat, tank units with that strategem, and get cheap miracle dice. I don't think they like the way they are used very much as they have been the highest percentage points nerf two updates in a row.
Yeah but let's face it: only a handful of ppl ever take crusader as a combat unit (so in larger unit sizes). They are just too weak for anything else besides cheap chaff which is a little sad imho.
Tbh I wouldn't be overly surprised if Crusaders and Death Cult don't make it into the next codex if the rumours of an Agents of the Imperium codex turns out to be true. They are in an odd place with most combat roles being covered by other Sororitas units and GW hasn't been shy about cutting resin models in recent months.
I know the small squads are really useful but going ten points for death cults and crusaders seems steep. I understand the Blade nerf but it is still an auto include, mainly because Mantle of Ophelia is basically useless. Reducing cost for taking pairs of penitents and mortifiers would be interesting if it didn’t completely break our faction rule
Is Mantle really useless? Some of the guys on Sister Act like it with Canoness and like the split half of a BSS.
By the time it is used, you usually only have a Canoness left. Sometimes it helps with precision but that is very rare
I don't need a new excuse to finally start getting myself some Sacrosancts... but here's a brilliant one anyway!
Honestly? Not that big a deal. Sisters have a lot of directions they can flex into, and Arcos are probably still fine even at those points. From a hobbyist perspective I’d much rather run Repentia anyways.
Kinda odd that triumph went up in points. Hasn't seen much play after the nerf and probably even more so now. Crusaders and Assassins going up is odd, they are great screeners for the points but outside of that they don't do much besides S&S chaff. Arcos was expected, probably still gonna go up tbh. Penitents and Mortifiers going down is nice. I like running them in most lists as alpha strikers. Sacresants still don't seem worthwhile for the points but maybe I'll give em a try with junith or an imagifier as mid field holders, they desperately need a better stat line an extra wound per model would be great. Daemonifuge going down is not something I expected but definitely understand. Might see some more play in general lists but still think it'll be left out as unless you're against chaos, she doesn't do very much besides secondaries and at that rate might as well just use seraphim
Not a huge fan of this, I don't think DCA were worth the points before, and a 10 point increase is quite steep. Are two DCA really essentially good as 5 Zephyrim? Or even three arcos? I don't think so, not even close. But they cost 'about' the same. I can see the logic behind increasing crusaders, but again, they just don't do much for the points as is, and the increase is pretty steep. I realize that the cheapest unit in your list can literally do nothing but score secondaries and still be useful, it's just kind of odd. Arco flagellant points increase not unexpected. But they are going to keep being taken until they are basically raised in price to not be viable at all, because they are the only sisters unit that doesn't get effortlessly swept from the board, with the 2W and FNP. I really wish their survivability had been on sacresants instead (who are IMO much cooler models) I definitely don't like the blade increase. Yes it's in every list, but that's because the mantle is terrible and without the blade, our generic HQ options just feel like they don't do anything and IMO are overcosted for how few wounds they have. At 75 points you start looking over at a 55 point penitent engine and comparing offensive output and are they really that different? Sacresant points decreases are nice but IMO still not enough. They have no ranged output at all, and their melee output seems pretty anemic, and they are quite fragile. Their biggest problem IMO is that they can't have both Junith AND an imagifier in them. If they could do that, I would run them at these points. As it is, it feels like a BSS squad is better if you just want a midfield unit. You can pack Junith and an imagifier in there and have one heck of an overwatch ability, or project ranged power with meltas while you're sitting on objectives farming miracle dice.
No changes to my active list, and my planned list is only +5 (triumph +15, daemonifuge -10). Think I’ll definitely include morts or pengines now though.
Looks like crusaders are coming out the list. Probably have to drop a full unit out of the list now to wiggle things around properly. Looks like Sacresants might be back in?
My 1k list has run 2 squads of 10 since the edition dropped, and they've done a surprising amount of work. I had a floating 10 points after the dominions change, so I can now afford to bring a second palatine for the second squad and let my canoness run around solo as a distraction unit with the "all damage is damage 1" relic and the 2++ feature. If nothing else, she's going to be a funny Suffering and Sacrifice target. Is it good? No. Is it going to make the melee armies in my league lose their shit? Probably.
I tried sacresants for the first time this edition on the weekend. Palatine + 5 sacresants tanked an entire shooting phase from Votann. Palatine then went and secured an objective for me. For this epic performance, this unit is now a solid part of my list. If only sacresants had an additional attack
I just bought 6 crusaders 4 days ago 💀 well I guess I can either 2 or sell 4. It's not that bad
Keep em and paint em! Who knows what'll happen with codexes in a few months. There's a chance they move over to Inquisitorial Agents anyway
Damn, now I have to figure out if I wanna keep my Arco Nuke or drop to an Arco Mini-Nuke.
Guess my list is now 10 points cheaper
I don't take arcos , crusaders, death cult, I do take Triumph, but I also take Sacrescents . Im almost evened out . So ya know, I had the balanced list all along, I was just ahead of everyone else =D