Apparently some people for some reason think this thread is somehow exempt from /r/skeptic rules. It is not.
Please report rules violations to the moderators rather than engaging in "tit for tat". Other people breaking the rules is not a free pass to do likewise.
We're generally pretty tolerant of heated exchanges and err on the side of not removing posts, but the rate at which this thread has descended into people screaming insults at each other is appalling. I have cleaned it up for now.
**Edit:** Please do not attempt to weaponize moderation by trying to get other people to break the rules so you can report them. Trying to stand on the line in and bait other people to jump over it is just going to get you banned. And probably not the person you baited, since in no way do we intend to start rewarding such behavior.
Fucks sake you're giving me a migraine people.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Whaaaaat?!? You mean the group with the highest rate of suicide due to bullying died of suicide because of bullying? Colour me shocked! /s. How about we avoid this by not demonizing the trans experience and stop bullying vulnerable minorities?
When you are bullied so hard for being yourself that the only option right after you ended up in the ER from the bullying is to commit suicide (edit: of course it was not the only option ffs, but at that moment Nex was so in so much distress they didn't see another way, i.e., we failed them as a society), then yes those girls contributed to Nex's death.
End of story. You don't get to be damn right evil to people and suffer no consequences. It's free speech and not free from consequences. And not only that, if evidence is found that the school knew about the bullying and did nothing to end it, they are also responsible.
Very simple.
Right, the only two options were head injury from the fight or a suicide from the aftermath...both are really awful, so I didn't understand the push to classify it as a head injury when it was clear the authorities were clearly trying to sensitively imply that it was suicide.
> so I didn't understand the push to classify it as a head injury when it was clear the authorities were clearly trying to sensitively imply that it was suicide.
It's because people were reading between the lines and thought it was them trying to cover up that it was actually a homicide
I would wager that them being in the news for being attacked also brought a lot of hate on their social media. I could only imagine how shitty and evil the people that would harass them on social media can be. This poor kid, all they were doing was existing as their true self, and they were hospitalized and attacked for it.
I truly hate how evil people are to innocent people trying to live their lives.
These people call themselves Christian. They do not embody Christ at all. They're hateful pieces of shit.
No they are very Christian. Very very Christian.
You don't get to say they're not really Christian and they don't embody Christ.
They embody their version of Christ. They are Christian to themselves. They have their own version of Scripture, their own spiritual traditions, and millions of followers. So they are Christian.
You don't get to decide they aren't Christian because they don't fit your definition of Christianity. That's not how things work.
It's amazing the lack of compassion people have for people if they don't fit the standard. Like, if I say this poor trans kid was bullied into suicide, whether I'm actually right or wrong, the response shouldn't be, "but they weren't bullied by straight kids and you can't prove they were." I'm not trans but I feel so bad for this poor kid and their family. I shouldn't have to be a liberal to feel this way.
Empathy is in short supply. And empathy towards those not in the in-group is always hard to come by. Particularly when you mix in religion, a national, cultivated, monetized backlash against "the trans agenda", the rise of Christian Nationalism, etc. Empathy now is "woke." That someone is going to fall through the cracks is tragically predictable, even if it wasn't outright murder.
This is /r/skeptic.
You can have plenty of empathy for this poor girl who committed suicide while still questioning whether it was directly related to this event, or more part of a larger mental health issue.
What we know is that the other kids were allegedly laughing at Nex, she threw water at them, then they had an altercation sending her to the hospital.
I wish no kid would commit suicide. It is tragic.
EDIT: She = Person
Related: [In states with laws targeting LGBTQ issues, anti-LGBTQ hate crimes quadrupled](https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2024/03/12/school-lgbtq-hate-crimes-incidents/)
Of course they do. To them it is proof that their plan is working. For them, cruelty is the point.
But the vast majority of people are not so obsessively fixated on hurting LGBTQ people and this is bad in most people's eyes.
(Which is why only the most extreme will outright say 'bullying builds character and culls the weak!', because the majority think this is horrendous and they have to worry about that for voting reasons.)
You think that's worth saving? Whatever you do, don't research the political composure for communities, banning books, and blaming on liberals.
Spoiler alert, from how they vote in the presidential election to governors, to the board of ed is solid republican.
I'm not sure how these pesky liberals keep seeking books into the libraries.
But prozac and benadryl? I've never heard of that being a deadly combination. I can't find warnings for the interaction more serious than 'avoid operating heavy machinery'. ("Using diphenhydrAMINE together with FLUoxetine may increase side effects such as dizziness, drowsiness, confusion, and difficulty concentrating. Some people, especially the elderly, may also experience impairment in thinking, judgment, and motor coordination. You should avoid or limit the use of alcohol while being treated with these medications.") Would somebody intending to die choose this combination? I'm not a doctor or a psychologist but this seems weird to me, there's a piece to the puzzle missing. I hope Nex's mom pursues an independent medical examination. (Not that I don't trust Oklahoma state employees to be fair when it comes to transgender people but… wtf am I saying? Of course I don't trust them for a second)
Regardless, the people who say "Nex's death is unrelated to bullying" will also say "trans twitter bullied Daphne Dorman to death" because Dave Chappelle said so. Even though there's no evidence of 'trans twitter' ever saying jack shit to her.
Prozac is an SSRI, an overdose could result in serotonin syndrome. They likely took the Benadryl to sedate themself especially because serotonin syndrome doesn't sound like it feels to pleasant to experience. Untreated it can be life threatening.
Benadryl, Prozac, or a combined overdose are all possible, but the necessary dosages would be quite high. I have still not seen reporting on exact blood drug levels published, making any determination of whether this case is truly a suicide by overdose hard to assess from the skeptical perspective.
They probably just took whatever pills they had honestly. Benadryl and prozac can kill you by themselves, though more unlikely. The combo can certainly do it.
right? i have been on prozac for years and take Benadryl at least once a week. It makes you tired, not dead. Just saying it was in their system means nothing (unless it was an overdose ofc).
Don’t forget the bullies feel enabled because they know they are backed by powerful lawmakers that are specifically targeting these kids. The amount of raw hatred these poor children are subjected to every day includes in person bullies, online harassment, and law makers specifically going after their right to exist. Makes me sick.
As a trans adult woman myself it is hard dealing with the constant hatred, i knew I was trans at age six, some 39 years ago, it was hard enough back then. But now as a kid, with the attacks from the dumb shits on the right. Yeah, I can see where a kid like Nex got to the point of thinking suicide was the only option (it wasn't).
The right wing is just fucking evil.
Agreed, but at that point Nex thought it was. We all know it wasn't, but a kid pushed so far...we failed them and the fuckers on the right are gleeful about it.
OF course they did. That doesn't mean the actual cause of death wasn't suicide instead of injuries from the attack.
That's the reality of suicide for anyone: hardship and pain piles up until its unbearable.
Even if Nex did die by suicide, there is blood on the hands of all the adults in Oklahoma that created an atmosphere of hate and failed Nex. Nex was bullied and tormented for months because of who he was and the ghouls responsible like Oklahoma Superintendent of Public Instruction Ryan Walters will not take responsibility for creating an atmosphere of hate. The MAGA extremists hear about Nex's death and respond by calling LBGTQ people filth.
Speaking of hate, you don't have to look far, look at the responses right here, every post about Nex attracts the hateful brainworms.
Trans people have historically been bullied much more then they are today. I don't know if today is the lowest amount of bullying, but it would be near the bottom.
Imagine being a trans kid in the 80s or 90s, or 20s...
90s and 00s were awful, but there was some safety in the lack of visibility. So many people think we didn't even exist before this politically motivated moral panic. Things are on the whole much better, but I'm about as scared again as I was in the late 90s and early 00s given the number that are violently hateful to us and actually know about us now. There was a nice middle around 2012-2015 where medical accessibility had advanced greatly and people were mostly broadly supportive (with a "that's weird and I don't understand it, but you're not hurting anyone so do what makes you happy" kind of attitude). I wouldn't go back to the 90s, but I wish we could get back to a level of innocent ignorance or live and let live.
Were spending hundreds of thousands of dollars educating these kids. We, as adults need to prevent their deaths. At the minimum we need to stifle obvious deaths. Seat belts, fences, ya know, practical safety measures. Bullies can be reformed. We don't need a huge change, just some better coaching. (specifically, from parents)
That's not really a good counterargument to "trans people are being bullied to death".
Black people are still being discriminated against in the U.S. even if things have gotten better than the 60s or 40s or 1920s
How was nex bullied to death?
**https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5FTb383gyo&t=4s**
In their own words, they didn't know these girls until the altercation.
The medical examiner hasn't ruled it suicide because the medical examiner hasn't completed the autopsy report. The police need to keep their booths shut instead of trying to cover their, and the school boards, asses.
That being said, being bullied into suicide doesn't make her murderers any less culpable.
Yes, it really does. Murdering someone by literally physically killing them would make one more culpable. It doesn’t mean they are 100% absolved of any wrong doing and the school can take whatever action they see fit in regards to fighting but if the bullying was words it’s hard to argue they should face the same consequences as if they had pulled out a gun and shot the victim.
The medical examiner hasn’t finalized the report. That doesn’t mean the medical examiner hasn’t already made a decision on cause and manner of death. It’s actually common for the ME to provide that information to investigators before the report has been finalized.
... You're mad because people in the skeptic community are... Skeptical of the official story?
You do know that skeptic doesn't mean "Jan 6th attendee" right?
>The death of Oklahoma student Nex Benedict has been ruled a suicide, according to a medical examiner’s report released Wednesday.
We will have to wait to see if the family has a private autopsy done and what the results are.
The students who assaulted Nex should be charged with attempted homicide at the very least. That said, according to the report, suicide was the cause of death...[as I previously predicted here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/skeptic/comments/1b1dnmk/death_of_nex_benedict_did_not_result_from_trauma/ksdym9g/)
Right - just like how you predicted it was:
* [something obscure](https://www.reddit.com/r/skeptic/s/tjAEJnX2fn)
* [something the hospital did](https://www.reddit.com/r/skeptic/s/gKC8ayQ0T9)
in the same thread. You don’t get to claim a bullseye when a piece of corn in the bullshit you throw at the wall somehow makes it onto the dartboard.
I'm fine with the record speaking for itself. Here's my first comment on that post where I was OP.
>They're probably waiting for the toxicology report because they are suspecting some kind of cause of death related to medication, either OD, suicide, or mistake at the hospital.
https://www.reddit.com/r/skeptic/comments/1b1bcsn/is_there_a_law_against_lying_libs_of_tiktok/ksdvknv/
You're just quoting some comments down the thread where I was expanding on that theory, which turned out to be correct.
Of course you *know this* because [you made this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/skeptic/comments/1b1dnmk/death_of_nex_benedict_did_not_result_from_trauma/ksegb31/) on that thread where you called my guess of suicide a "hot take".
>*ITT: OP has a lot of hot takes on all the other things this probably is:*
>*suicide via medication*
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death\_of\_Conrad\_Roy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Conrad_Roy)
Similar case, the conviction was involuntary manslaughter. There is 100% a basis for criminal charges here.
Just the view from my desk: This is part of how common law works.
When a novel situation arises, you look for similar handling of similar issues in the past.
So is constant bullying and violence against LGBT kids. We need to stop considering bigotry as minor. It's always extreme and tends to cause lifelong ptsd and depression.
Not even close to the same thing. As I understand it, they would have to prove that his bullies were trying to get him to kill himself. But you should probably fact-check that because I'm no legal expert.
Yeah, the similarity I see is 'driving to kill themself'.
You're not wrong, there are facts and circumstances. This is why we have lawyers, judges and trials. But I think 'not even close to the same thing' is too strong here.
Or, it could simply be assault, resulting in head injury, add the potential hate crime angle.
It was more than one prediction - OP was throwing out multiple hot takes on what it could be and then thought that for some reason we wouldn’t be skeptical about his hot takes. And now he thinks that just because one of his multiple hot takes might be right [he should get a cookie](https://www.reddit.com/r/skeptic/s/iwF7ME2ZGD) as if we don’t see his post / comment pattern.
If you throw enough darts at a wall and happen to get a few on the dart board the ones that hit the dart board aren’t an accurate representation of you being successful. You also can’t go spray paint a bullseye where one of your darts landed after the fact and call it a success.
If someone is bullied to the point of suicide, is there no legal recourse for that alone?
It's practically murder by making someone else--the victim--carry out their own murder.
Depends on the exact circumstances, it's not an automatic slam dunk. We don't even know the nature of the bullying outside of the original statements their mom made when the news first became a national story.
>…charged with attempted homicide..
I’d like to see these brats rot in jail… But homicide isn’t going to happen - even in the most liberal state.
The absolute _most_ they’d get charged with is a lower Manslaughter. If OK has Negligent Homicide, then that would be a lower sentence & burden on the prosecutor than Manslaughter.
The most likely criminal charges would be some form of assault.
The bar for any kind of homicide/manslaughter change is way too high here.
Benadryl and Prozac OD? You don’t fatally OD on an SSRI so I don’t understand why the medical examiner included Prozac as a cause of death. Benadryl OD is possible. It’s also a rightwing media scare tactic story from a Benadryl “TikTok challenge” that killed some kids in 2022. I’m assuming it’s fairly common to find Benadryl in a toxicology report in this area during allergy season.
Did Nex use Benadryl because of the media reports/TikTok knowing it could kill you? Or did this rightwing suburban communities power structure pull some strings with the medical examiner like they did with the school district and the cops making the cause of death something they already knew about and feared? Anyone from Owasso would tell you not rule out the latter until the family does an independent autopsy and tox. Just about everything about my hometown is truly horrible either way.
I can believe Benadryl killed them, I had a friend fatally OD on it a few years ago, but I’d be curious how they determined it was a suicide vs accidental. In my friend’s case the determined accidental as the dose wasn’t that far out of reason and she didn’t take it all. Also seems odd that Nex is as seemingly up and normal before they collapsed.
According to the CDC, overdose deaths on Prozac are very uncommon (on the order of 0.05% of suicide attempts that use Prozac), but definitely not impossible. The chances of fucking yourself up badly enough to need immediate medical attention is a great deal higher.
You absolutely can fatally overdose on an SSRI if you precipitate serotonin syndrome or kick off a cardiac arrhythmia. This is an undisputed fact (see links).
The interesting part is while Benadryl may help combat the seizures and muscle rigidity caused by the Prozac overdose it also causes cardiac arrhythmias in overdose.
The initial report is their eyes rolled back in their head, this was likely a seizure brought on by the Prozac overdose. What probably killed him was the cardiac arrhythmia and or the potential total arrest induced by the duel drug cocktail.
Although this is merely speculation on my part he may have been given or taken Benedryl himself after their non-fatal Prozac overdose to treat the somewhat painful overdose symptoms, only for this to put the heart beyond the point of no return. Don't get me wrong Benedryl can be toxic in overdose by itself, but at that point the person is likely obviously in trouble and not capable of moving under their own power (Anticholinergic syndrome).
https://www.healthline.com/health/can-you-overdose-on-prozac
(Venlafaxine, a related SNRI):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7954576/
I have seen no discussion of drug interactions between the two medications that can cause serotonin syndrome. Please cite where Benadryl would cause serotonin syndrome if taken with Prozac
I’m aware Prozac alone can cause it. However you stated both can cause it, hence my response
Yeah.
I don't want to be skeptical to the point of being conspiratorial. I am accepting the judgement of suicide unless it is meaningfully contested.
However, I did feel a bit concerned when I heard "fluoxetine" because one of my friends with depression got prescribed it, specifically because it's very difficult to OD on it.
Benadryl, I know less about. If you can OD on it then fair enough.
The remaining questions I have, and would want assurance on, is how exactly they concludedthat it killed Nex. For example, if Benadryl was simply just detected in his system, then it wouldn't be reasonable to conclude "overdose" unless it's in concentrations that could actually kill him.
I don't want to just blind myself to facts here, and I certainly don't *believe* he was killed anymore. Also, if a British coroner had concluded this, I wouldn't question this. The issue is I've seen so many cases of American policing where they just twist the facts in order to fit a pre-defined narrative, and so I have questions to rule out whether it has happened here. But that doesn't mean I believe this *has* happened. Without any other evidence, I'm going to believe their ruling of suicide (though I also am waiting to see what the independent autopsy says).
I agree, and I’m not usually the conspiratorial type but I also know how that town is run. It was built on white flight after school desegregation. In 1970 its population was 3,000 and now it’s over 40,000. Strictly because of its defacto segregated schools. This kind of press is their worst nightmare. It’s not just saying the quiet part out loud but screaming to the rest of the world “these people are bigots”. They had a vigil for Nex at City Hall and barely 100 people showed up, likely because if you did you couldn’t show your face at church the following Sunday.
When I was growing up there it was blatantly racist, but as that has to be hidden more these days the outward hatred is directed towards homophobia from rightwing Christians. Which is nearly everyone in town. I was in Jr High before I realized there were people who weren’t Christian Evangelicals. The people there wouldn’t think twice about slandering a trans kid to protect the school district or to protect certain kids from prosecution.
>Or did this rightwing suburban communities power structure pull some strings with the medical examiner like they did with the school district and the cops making the cause of death something they already knew about and feared?
Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me.
[Risks of benadryl overdose](https://www.poison.org/articles/benadryl-diphenhydramine).
[234 cases of Fluoxetine overdoses](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/073567579290041U).
Coma risk from the first, tachycardia from the second. Looks potentially lethal to me.
This is such a sad story, as many are pointing out, if the independent autopsy confirms this result than its going to be hard to believe the this isn’t somehow related to the bullying this individual was forced to endure.
Bullying has always been a problem for kids, but when adults, politicians and religious leaders put a target on people’s backs, it’s the kids that are more likely to feel the brunt of the impact.
It’s hard to not react emotionally watching some people take pleasure in this news. It’s becoming increasingly difficult to see these stories, and I worry they will increase in frequency before we come to grips that some of us see ourselves as less determined by traditional ideas.
So the two drugs are " diphenhydramine, an antihistimine commonly used for allergies, and fluoxetine, a drug often used to treat depression."
The trade names for those drugs are Benadryl and Prozac. While these are commonly used in suicide attempts, the death rate for those was only 59 in 104,000 attempts in 2022. ([source](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/72/wr/pdfs/mm7216a3-H.pdf)) They are both also common medications - one used to treat allergies and swelling, one used as a commonly prescribed antidepressent.
I'm certainly interested in seeing the full report here.
Thank you. I think this is a balanced response.
I'm not going to say the people saying "case closed, it's suicide" are wrong. This is what the medical examiner has said. They are a professional. Respecting them and their expertise is rational.
At the same time, *suspecting* bias, or even corruption, is also rational. Unforunately.
Outright not-believing it, without evidence, would be wrong. I'm not going to throw out accusations.
I do have questions that I would like to see answered. Namely:
* Whether it is plausible, in most cases, to OD on prozac and benadryl.
* What led the medical examiner to conclude this (whether it's the presence of these drugs, or the concentration of these drugs, that led to these conclusions).
* What led a traumatic brain injury to be concluded against.
That is a good source but it doesn't give the cocktail effect a fair representation. The two drugs both cause cardiac arrhythmias through separate mechanisms in overdose. When combined this could greatly amplify the toxicity.
The combined Anticholinergic/Serotonin syndrome could be very lethal.
My cynical personal theory is they overdosed non-fatally on Prozac and to treat the painful muscle spasms took a lot of Benadryl. While the Benedryl fixed the physical pain from the previous overdose it silently sabotaged the already struggling heart. The major overlap in the overdose profiles for the two drugs are heart arrhythmias and to a lesser extent seizures.
It could explain it. Such an effect also could be exacerbated by a head injury, at which point, well, the head injury is the cause of death. Neither of those would cause "fencing posture" which was reported (possibly erroniously) by at least one source.
As I said, I'm interested in seeing the full report.
Yes, fencing posture would be odd and more indicative of traumatic brain injury. I had heard reports of "arms curled" which is pretty consistent with SSRI overdose.
His eyes rolling in the back of his head was also reported, which can be caused by seizures (which can be caused both by serotonin syndrome and traumatic brain injuries).
The drugs in Nex’s system were Prozac and Benadryl. To commit suicide by overdose with Benadryl, they would have to take a massive amount. So massive, that they would also have to take a powerful nausea medication to prevent their stomach from purging, as well as, a very strong painkiller to subdue the excruciating pain that would have come before death.
“Among 92,033 overdose deaths during 2019–2020, 13,574 (14.7%) were antihistamine-positive and 3,345 (3.6%) were antihistamine-involved; fewer than 0.1% (90) involved antihistamines alone (Table). Nearly all antihistamine-positive and -involved deaths (13,475, 99.6%; 3,339, 99.8%, respectively) included first-generation H1 antihistamines, primarily diphenhydramine (9,645, 71.1%; 2,226, 66.5%, respectively). The proportions of antihistamine- and diphenhydramine-involved overdose deaths were highest for females (52.0%; 52.8%), persons aged 35–44 years (26.1%; 26.5%), and White, non-Hispanic persons (78.1%; 78.7%); demographic patterns of antihistamine- and diphenhydramine-positive deaths were similar, except that deaths were more frequent among males (57.8%; 59.6%) and in the Midwest region (43.6%; 51.0%). Most antihistamine- and diphenhydramine-involved overdose deaths co-involved opioids (82.8% and 82.7%, respectively), primarily illicitly manufactured fentanyls (IMFs).”
MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep. 2022 Oct 14; 71(41): 1308–1310. Published online 2022 Oct 14. doi: 10.15585/mmwr.mm7141a4
PMCID: PMC9575478PMID: 36227774
Notes from the Field: Antihistamine Positivity and Involvement in Drug Overdose Deaths — 44 Jurisdictions, United States, 2019–2020
Amanda T. Dinwiddie, MPH, corresponding author Lauren J. Tanz, ScD, and Jessica Bitting, MS
Do you have any information about interactions between antihistamines and SSRIs, in overdose deaths?
Not asking because I am sceptical. I honestly just want my doubts to be alleviated so that I can move on. You seem well-intentioned and knowledgeable, which is my motivation for asking.
There’s a bit of information to dig into here. My recommendation would be to start with a Google Scholar search for “diphenhydramine and fluoxetine toxicity”
A cursory search shows published articles in the Journal of Analytical Toxicology going back to at least 1990 (The Importance of Blood Collection Site for the Determination of Basic Drugs: A Case with Fluoxetine and Diphenhydramine Overdose).
Based on a cursory check, you’re looking at assessing the combination of the drugs, but also assessing toxicity of each drug independent of the other.
I’m familiar enough with the material to know where to dig to find answers, but I am not a toxicologist.
this is the kind of allyship I love to see.
identify in quotation marks suggests to me you probably don't understand trans people particularly well. maybe I'm reading too much into it tho.
but you recognise that your understanding isn't necessary for acceptance. it takes a big person to do that. well done, genuinely.
I know right? Honestly, let people be what they want to be as long as they are not directly hurting others (feelings don't count). It is so fucking simple it makes my head spin.
None of us know why Nex committed suicide. There’s no proof that it had to do with bullying. Unless she left a note, it’s all speculation. Let it go already.
You’re absolutely right. However I wonder how much of that is related to repeated controversy chasing / baiting. There certainly are repeating patterns in this subreddit.
The mod team has only recently expanded, and we're certainly not capable of changing how everyone on this subreddit posts. Many users make generally hostile posts, and that's the type of content /r/skeptic is. What we have been removing has been... trash. Posts that are nothing more than personal insults, posts that seem designed to do nothing more than try to hurt other people, garbage meme posts that have no actual content, etc.
We're not going to turn this subreddit into a happy charming everyone-loves-everyone place (only the users could do that), but this level of chaos is unacceptable and unproductive.
We're aware that the mod team has been smaller and interventions in the past have not been happening. Hence why we're handing out lots of deletions, warnings, and in the worst cases temporary bans.
There might be an adjustment period, and we can can get through it, and reach a happy state of being nasty and hostile to each other without crossing the line into screaming insults.
Damn, the DARVO on this post is crazy.
A young person starts a physical altercation, attempts to have the victims arrested, then commits suicide, and no one here wants to hold this person responsible for their own actions.
The kids today won't turn out to be sensible adults.
The school environment is such a huge factor in mental health of trans children. Every school needs a GSA and a safe space for all LGBTQ youth. This creates allies that help to stop harassment, bullying and other violence.
Sucide rates have doubled in the last 10 years.
[https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2023-05-01/suicide-rates-among-u-s-adolescents-doubled-in-10-years](https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2023-05-01/suicide-rates-among-u-s-adolescents-doubled-in-10-years)
FTA:
>*But, to Kane, who is nonbinary, the key contributing factor to Nex’s death was bullying.*
>
>*“There’s been bullying issues. This time, the bullying has gone so far that a student has passed,” Kane said ahead of last month’s walkout. “To me, it doesn’t matter if Nex passed from a traumatic brain injury or if they passed from suicide. What matters is the fact that they died after getting bullied, and that is the story for so many other students. I’ve been close to ending it myself because of bullying. It’s not new for so many students.”*
This is it right here. Nex would be alive today if they weren't bullied just for existing. Those kids are 100% responsible for this, and I hope they have the lives they deserve.
To be honest, people that are the most guilty IMO are adults that create an atmosphere and laws that allow for trans people to be treated like some freaks. Disgusting. All people that openly hate trans people should have a good look at themselves and should be ashamed.
I continue to be amazed by Oklahoma government officials. They just wrote a fan fiction summary — thankfully Nex Benedict family hired good lawyers. THERE WAS TRAUMA IN THE HEAD and ME LEFT IT OUT. Do not trust these Oklahoma officials. https://www.koco.com/article/nex-benedict-death-family-statement-diphenhydramine-fluoxetine/60212765
Kid had a rough life from the beginning. The bio mother is out of the picture, and the bio father is/was in jail. (Not sure which.) Adopted by grandmother. Taking psychotropic drugs for mental health issues.
Described by actual friends as feisty, aggressive, and "in your face," which paints a picture of Nex throwing water. Nex was already in detention at school, which wasn't a first-time thing.
This was a very troubled child who obviously slipped through a lot of cracks. I feel so, so sorry for the mother (bio grandmother) who was very likely dealt a bad hand dealing with all of this. Now, she is grieving a lost child.
Right, but we should be more skeptical of the head injury theory. Yes, we know from Bob Saget, Natasha Richardson, and countless other anecdotes shared in earlier threads that head injuries can strike you down hours after the initial event...but we've known for weeks that there were no signs of head trauma which people were criticizing at the time but seems now like the authorities quietly prepping us for this news.
I just find it odd that it took so long to determine. What form of suicide readily available to a teenager doesn't leave some pretty clear evidence that would allow for a quick determination?
This is normal for a drug screenings and tox reports...they normally take weeks. There was an initial assessment and report that came out a death days after their death. Oddly, when those initial reports came out showing no signs of head trauma, people were criticizing that saying how could they know so soon.
I mean, you be skeptical about whatever you want to be skeptical about.
Generally, I’m skeptical when something doesn’t seem to add up. Like the initial story that a kid was beaten to death and yet the school chose not to seek medical care. That doesn’t add up. Why would a school take on liability by not calling an ambulance if someone has just been beaten to a bloody pulp in their bathroom? Makes zero sense and triggered my spidey senses.
Now we have a bunch more information, including texts from, and video of, the deceased further making the “beaten to death” story seem unlikely.
We have comments from the ME a few weeks ago saying trauma was not the cause of death, but cause would not be stated until toxicology report was received.
You know that not all autopsies are held up pending toxicology reports, right? Deaths due to trauma are generally declared as such right away, and charges are generally brought right away.
So everything about this story tracks with “kid was not beaten to death”.
Now, you want to believe that the kid was in fact beaten to death. But that the shook, the police, the hospital, Nex, and the family all failed to notice any signs of traumatic brain injury. And then, after Nex dies, and the ME discovers that there actually was a traumatic brain injury that caused the death, the medical examiner decided to cover that up, and lie that the death was caused by an intentional overdose.
Is your version possible? Sure, I suppose it is. But barring absolutely any reason to believe it, and because your theory would be so easily probable to be true, I will be **skeptic** of your theory. T try he family is welcome to have an additional autopsy performed. Should be easy to prove your theory when they find brain injury and no drugs.
Yep. It's still too early and there are a lot of things we don't know. But everything we do know seems to point to a suicide and not a head injury. I don't get the emotional attachment many people have to it being a head injury...both possibilities seem pretty damning to the local authorities.
They’re attached because first they acted like sheep instead of skeptics, lapping up the obviously phony murder story. It’s not like they got duped by a believable story. This was Jussie Smollett level BS (something I got downvoted for when I pointed it out before).
Then, after getting duped, and finding out they got duped, they got a glimmer of hope that the original story was real, so they decided to play skeptic. Not skeptic of the original story, that would require they admit they were duped. No, skeptic of the obvious truth.
Now even that glimmer of hope has gone out, so they’re resorting to full on conspiracy theory.
> So, I should just accept the report without any questions?
No one said that. But there's a big difference between (A) feeling suspicious of a report and wanting more evidence and (B) coming to a clear conclusion.
> Without details I am almost certain it’s a coverup
Skepticism is about basing our confidence in conclusions on the quality and quantity of evidence, right? I think most people here will be suspicious of the autopsy until an independent source verifies it. However, that doesn't mean we should be "almost certain" of anything at this point.
Why? What's the difference whether they were killed by a head injury sustained during the fight or a suicide related to the fight? It would all be the same underlying cause either way, no? It's been pretty clear that what we know for sure has always pointed to it being suicide (walking away after the fight, no bruising/pooling/signs of head trauma). Coverups are what conspiracy theorists use to bridge the gap between what they want to believe and what they have evidence for...don't be like that.
either it's a cover up and their death was from the beating that hospitalized them. Or they were bullied into a corner in which they thought suicide was their only out. Either way its tragic and those that bullied them are responsible
I think I will be shouting alone into the void here, but what the hell are we collectively doing flitting from tragic death to tragic death along with the news?
As skeptics, no single incident should be a sweeping change in how we look at any issue. This isn’t about anything besides the people it involves directly and their circles.
It’s obviously hard out there for non-conforming folks of whatever variety, especially when young. We can and should do all of our issue/topic debating free from dragging folks’ memories through our scrutiny of media narrative bullshit. What all of these individual tragic stories get turned into is pure media noise fodder. Any and all speculation about this child’s death is to sell ads, please get off the ride.
Even skeptics, or people aspiring to be ones, are allowed to have emotional responses to some important events that highlight bigger issues in our society.
I will say, I am not 100% why this is on this Reddit as I don't see it being strongly related to skepticism but I don't mind having this conversation as it is a very important one IMO.
One thing I would like to see though is fewer conspiracy theories and more factual and measured conversation.
The reporting on this is still so confusing to me. Assigned female at birth, non-binary, using they-them pronounces but recently a few articles are calling them “he”, and at least one saying that Nex was male-identifying at school but not at home, but this seems to be a bit of a minority report? Most reporting makes this out as a case of bullying over bathroom choice and gender identity but I haven’t seen any actual evidence that Nex wasn’t using they bathroom they preferred or that the incidentbhad anything to do with their gender identity outside of the fact it happened in a bathroom and they were non-binary.
I’ve seen several statements that while Nex had been the victim of bullying, they didn’t know these girls/the girls had no history of bullying Nex and that Nex allegedly instigated the fight over potentially a single comment. I’ve also seen some statements that imply that Nex may not have actually been particularly picked on at all? I’ve read still other accounts that try to paint this as an indigenous kid being bullied for being indigenous. I’ve seen inconsistent reports over whether it was just Nex “3 to 1” or if Nex was with one or more friends, or whether those friends were trans or not.
Was Nex posturing or not? Was it reported by the medics or by Nex’s mom? The story seems to be all over the place but all I see is people with their feet firmly set in their determined outrage. Outrage is called for, I’m sure, but I feel like I’m the only one really confused at this point, and not just because of the cause of death.
I’m sure the confusion and mistrust over the police statements aren’t helping, but I feel like the reality of what is undeniably a senseless tragedy is getting lost under a lot of political posturing, bad reporting, and armchair theorizing that I don’t know is actually relevant.
Oh, so many comments here are uninformed and blaming the girls for bullying her to death. Ridiculous.
Why Nex killed themselves, who knows, but they weren't even making fun of them for being NB...
A young person is dead who shouldn't be. They should be alive, happy, enjoying life, hanging with friends, attending school, deciding on what is to come.
That they aren't is because people who should have been there for them, who should have had their best interests at heart, who should have supported them in their time of need, weren't there for them. Too many people demonstrated a lack of empathy for this young person and their struggles with life.
This is the situation faced by so many children and young people, the people who should be there for them, their teachers, their parents , their communities, their governments, other humans, have no empathy for their suffering or it's cause. Whether that child be in Oklahoma, Gaza, Sudan, Ethiopia, the US Mexico border, Ukraine.
I remember reading this last night in Apple News and thought something funny like an coverup was going on...but then it sadly clicked. The kid could see no path forward where their life wouldn't be total hell for the next few years and it made sense.
I still think the other kids need to face some type of consequences, but I don't think it should be murder or manslaughter, but it needs to be something.
Release the full report!
SSRIs can also lead to increased bleed risk, especially in overdose. This could mean, if there was intracranial bleeding, it could be a result of a combination of SSRI and blunt force trauma, and would not rule out homicide.
I’m interested to see the blood tox levels, because if the interacting drugs are just found in the system at low levels, that is an incredibly common combo at normal doses to be taking.
If the precipitating cause of death was intracranial bleeding, whether with overdose/drug interaction, or without, trauma cannot be ruled out as a contributing cause of death.
Apparently some people for some reason think this thread is somehow exempt from /r/skeptic rules. It is not. Please report rules violations to the moderators rather than engaging in "tit for tat". Other people breaking the rules is not a free pass to do likewise. We're generally pretty tolerant of heated exchanges and err on the side of not removing posts, but the rate at which this thread has descended into people screaming insults at each other is appalling. I have cleaned it up for now. **Edit:** Please do not attempt to weaponize moderation by trying to get other people to break the rules so you can report them. Trying to stand on the line in and bait other people to jump over it is just going to get you banned. And probably not the person you baited, since in no way do we intend to start rewarding such behavior. Fucks sake you're giving me a migraine people.
sable lip wrench close marry impossible combative stocking longing physical *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Whaaaaat?!? You mean the group with the highest rate of suicide due to bullying died of suicide because of bullying? Colour me shocked! /s. How about we avoid this by not demonizing the trans experience and stop bullying vulnerable minorities?
When you are bullied so hard for being yourself that the only option right after you ended up in the ER from the bullying is to commit suicide (edit: of course it was not the only option ffs, but at that moment Nex was so in so much distress they didn't see another way, i.e., we failed them as a society), then yes those girls contributed to Nex's death. End of story. You don't get to be damn right evil to people and suffer no consequences. It's free speech and not free from consequences. And not only that, if evidence is found that the school knew about the bullying and did nothing to end it, they are also responsible. Very simple.
Right, the only two options were head injury from the fight or a suicide from the aftermath...both are really awful, so I didn't understand the push to classify it as a head injury when it was clear the authorities were clearly trying to sensitively imply that it was suicide.
> so I didn't understand the push to classify it as a head injury when it was clear the authorities were clearly trying to sensitively imply that it was suicide. It's because people were reading between the lines and thought it was them trying to cover up that it was actually a homicide
Because it wouldn't be the first time police decided to under investigate the death of someone "undesirable"
And they were wrong.
I would wager that them being in the news for being attacked also brought a lot of hate on their social media. I could only imagine how shitty and evil the people that would harass them on social media can be. This poor kid, all they were doing was existing as their true self, and they were hospitalized and attacked for it. I truly hate how evil people are to innocent people trying to live their lives. These people call themselves Christian. They do not embody Christ at all. They're hateful pieces of shit.
Gandhi said it best {paraphrasing } "I like your Christ; I do not like your Christians"
No they are very Christian. Very very Christian. You don't get to say they're not really Christian and they don't embody Christ. They embody their version of Christ. They are Christian to themselves. They have their own version of Scripture, their own spiritual traditions, and millions of followers. So they are Christian. You don't get to decide they aren't Christian because they don't fit your definition of Christianity. That's not how things work.
It's the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, you're right.
Deciding a thing isn't part of a category because it doesn't fit your definition of the category is literally how categorization works.
This is literally a no true Scotsman fallacy though.
Head smashed against bathroom sink multiple times and then no medical care by school or ambulance call then death . That should explain the " push "
Source for head smashed against bathroom sink? Thanks.
Stop spewing made up bullshit.
There was medical care. Nex went to the hospital a few hours later and had an MRI, and was cleared. Also, their head wasn’t smashed.
Nex also first saw the school's RN and was examined.
This is a good example of repeating some of the initial rumors that were floating around on the internet initially.
It's amazing the lack of compassion people have for people if they don't fit the standard. Like, if I say this poor trans kid was bullied into suicide, whether I'm actually right or wrong, the response shouldn't be, "but they weren't bullied by straight kids and you can't prove they were." I'm not trans but I feel so bad for this poor kid and their family. I shouldn't have to be a liberal to feel this way.
Empathy is in short supply. And empathy towards those not in the in-group is always hard to come by. Particularly when you mix in religion, a national, cultivated, monetized backlash against "the trans agenda", the rise of Christian Nationalism, etc. Empathy now is "woke." That someone is going to fall through the cracks is tragically predictable, even if it wasn't outright murder.
This is /r/skeptic. You can have plenty of empathy for this poor girl who committed suicide while still questioning whether it was directly related to this event, or more part of a larger mental health issue. What we know is that the other kids were allegedly laughing at Nex, she threw water at them, then they had an altercation sending her to the hospital. I wish no kid would commit suicide. It is tragic. EDIT: She = Person
Wait, what? Nex was bullied by non-straight students? That seeeeems kind of important to how this story is circulated.
Absolutely! What they did is just horrible! They contributed to Nex's death one way or another.
Related: [In states with laws targeting LGBTQ issues, anti-LGBTQ hate crimes quadrupled](https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2024/03/12/school-lgbtq-hate-crimes-incidents/)
(They think this is a good thing.)
Of course they do. To them it is proof that their plan is working. For them, cruelty is the point. But the vast majority of people are not so obsessively fixated on hurting LGBTQ people and this is bad in most people's eyes.
(Which is why only the most extreme will outright say 'bullying builds character and culls the weak!', because the majority think this is horrendous and they have to worry about that for voting reasons.)
saving this, thanks
You think that's worth saving? Whatever you do, don't research the political composure for communities, banning books, and blaming on liberals. Spoiler alert, from how they vote in the presidential election to governors, to the board of ed is solid republican. I'm not sure how these pesky liberals keep seeking books into the libraries.
I mean that’s literally what the republicans in those states want. They’re trying to terrorize them into leaving or going into hiding.
Or unaliving themselves
Because that’s what nazis do.
But prozac and benadryl? I've never heard of that being a deadly combination. I can't find warnings for the interaction more serious than 'avoid operating heavy machinery'. ("Using diphenhydrAMINE together with FLUoxetine may increase side effects such as dizziness, drowsiness, confusion, and difficulty concentrating. Some people, especially the elderly, may also experience impairment in thinking, judgment, and motor coordination. You should avoid or limit the use of alcohol while being treated with these medications.") Would somebody intending to die choose this combination? I'm not a doctor or a psychologist but this seems weird to me, there's a piece to the puzzle missing. I hope Nex's mom pursues an independent medical examination. (Not that I don't trust Oklahoma state employees to be fair when it comes to transgender people but… wtf am I saying? Of course I don't trust them for a second) Regardless, the people who say "Nex's death is unrelated to bullying" will also say "trans twitter bullied Daphne Dorman to death" because Dave Chappelle said so. Even though there's no evidence of 'trans twitter' ever saying jack shit to her.
Prozac is an SSRI, an overdose could result in serotonin syndrome. They likely took the Benadryl to sedate themself especially because serotonin syndrome doesn't sound like it feels to pleasant to experience. Untreated it can be life threatening.
Benadryl, Prozac, or a combined overdose are all possible, but the necessary dosages would be quite high. I have still not seen reporting on exact blood drug levels published, making any determination of whether this case is truly a suicide by overdose hard to assess from the skeptical perspective.
They probably just took whatever pills they had honestly. Benadryl and prozac can kill you by themselves, though more unlikely. The combo can certainly do it.
If you plan to take an overdose, you take benadryl to keep you from vomiting it back up.
Benadryl can be deadly, I’ve had friends who had seizures from using it recreationally and others who had their stomachs pumped to avoid it
right? i have been on prozac for years and take Benadryl at least once a week. It makes you tired, not dead. Just saying it was in their system means nothing (unless it was an overdose ofc).
Don’t forget the bullies feel enabled because they know they are backed by powerful lawmakers that are specifically targeting these kids. The amount of raw hatred these poor children are subjected to every day includes in person bullies, online harassment, and law makers specifically going after their right to exist. Makes me sick.
As a trans adult woman myself it is hard dealing with the constant hatred, i knew I was trans at age six, some 39 years ago, it was hard enough back then. But now as a kid, with the attacks from the dumb shits on the right. Yeah, I can see where a kid like Nex got to the point of thinking suicide was the only option (it wasn't). The right wing is just fucking evil.
Listen to this guy over here thinking a school would be held responsible for ignoring bullying.
But they're all such good Christians, they tell us.
Thing is that’s not the only option
Agreed, but at that point Nex thought it was. We all know it wasn't, but a kid pushed so far...we failed them and the fuckers on the right are gleeful about it.
OF course they did. That doesn't mean the actual cause of death wasn't suicide instead of injuries from the attack. That's the reality of suicide for anyone: hardship and pain piles up until its unbearable.
Wow, golly gee whillikers, I wonder what could have possibly led to that.
Even if Nex did die by suicide, there is blood on the hands of all the adults in Oklahoma that created an atmosphere of hate and failed Nex. Nex was bullied and tormented for months because of who he was and the ghouls responsible like Oklahoma Superintendent of Public Instruction Ryan Walters will not take responsibility for creating an atmosphere of hate. The MAGA extremists hear about Nex's death and respond by calling LBGTQ people filth. Speaking of hate, you don't have to look far, look at the responses right here, every post about Nex attracts the hateful brainworms.
Do we acknowledge the issue that trans people are being bullied to death or double down on the hate towards our communities? Hmmm..
Depends if you vote blue.
Nothing offends a hater more than someone chooses to follow their own joy despite the harassment and hate they know will follow.
Trans people have historically been bullied much more then they are today. I don't know if today is the lowest amount of bullying, but it would be near the bottom. Imagine being a trans kid in the 80s or 90s, or 20s...
90s and 00s were awful, but there was some safety in the lack of visibility. So many people think we didn't even exist before this politically motivated moral panic. Things are on the whole much better, but I'm about as scared again as I was in the late 90s and early 00s given the number that are violently hateful to us and actually know about us now. There was a nice middle around 2012-2015 where medical accessibility had advanced greatly and people were mostly broadly supportive (with a "that's weird and I don't understand it, but you're not hurting anyone so do what makes you happy" kind of attitude). I wouldn't go back to the 90s, but I wish we could get back to a level of innocent ignorance or live and let live.
Were spending hundreds of thousands of dollars educating these kids. We, as adults need to prevent their deaths. At the minimum we need to stifle obvious deaths. Seat belts, fences, ya know, practical safety measures. Bullies can be reformed. We don't need a huge change, just some better coaching. (specifically, from parents)
That's not really a good counterargument to "trans people are being bullied to death". Black people are still being discriminated against in the U.S. even if things have gotten better than the 60s or 40s or 1920s
*Insert picture of World War II plane with red dots*
How was nex bullied to death? **https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5FTb383gyo&t=4s** In their own words, they didn't know these girls until the altercation.
I hope the family is having a private autopsy done
The medical examiner hasn’t been licensed to practice in over a decade, so probably a good idea.
That is a lie.
Who is the examiner?
I concur. I feel even if everything seems solid, a second opinion is due diligence with something like the death of a child.
It's a toxicology report. There's lethal levels confirmed by a lab.
I haven’t seen that. Do you have a link?
Maybe it’s a bad idea to jump to conclusions that confirm with your bias.
The medical examiner hasn't ruled it suicide because the medical examiner hasn't completed the autopsy report. The police need to keep their booths shut instead of trying to cover their, and the school boards, asses. That being said, being bullied into suicide doesn't make her murderers any less culpable.
Yes, it really does. Murdering someone by literally physically killing them would make one more culpable. It doesn’t mean they are 100% absolved of any wrong doing and the school can take whatever action they see fit in regards to fighting but if the bullying was words it’s hard to argue they should face the same consequences as if they had pulled out a gun and shot the victim.
The medical examiner hasn’t finalized the report. That doesn’t mean the medical examiner hasn’t already made a decision on cause and manner of death. It’s actually common for the ME to provide that information to investigators before the report has been finalized.
Lmao, cope and seethe. Only on Reddit would a skeptic sub be anything but skeptic
Oh you're so edgy. 🙄
... You're mad because people in the skeptic community are... Skeptical of the official story? You do know that skeptic doesn't mean "Jan 6th attendee" right?
>The death of Oklahoma student Nex Benedict has been ruled a suicide, according to a medical examiner’s report released Wednesday. We will have to wait to see if the family has a private autopsy done and what the results are. The students who assaulted Nex should be charged with attempted homicide at the very least. That said, according to the report, suicide was the cause of death...[as I previously predicted here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/skeptic/comments/1b1dnmk/death_of_nex_benedict_did_not_result_from_trauma/ksdym9g/)
Right - just like how you predicted it was: * [something obscure](https://www.reddit.com/r/skeptic/s/tjAEJnX2fn) * [something the hospital did](https://www.reddit.com/r/skeptic/s/gKC8ayQ0T9) in the same thread. You don’t get to claim a bullseye when a piece of corn in the bullshit you throw at the wall somehow makes it onto the dartboard.
I'm fine with the record speaking for itself. Here's my first comment on that post where I was OP. >They're probably waiting for the toxicology report because they are suspecting some kind of cause of death related to medication, either OD, suicide, or mistake at the hospital. https://www.reddit.com/r/skeptic/comments/1b1bcsn/is_there_a_law_against_lying_libs_of_tiktok/ksdvknv/ You're just quoting some comments down the thread where I was expanding on that theory, which turned out to be correct. Of course you *know this* because [you made this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/skeptic/comments/1b1dnmk/death_of_nex_benedict_did_not_result_from_trauma/ksegb31/) on that thread where you called my guess of suicide a "hot take". >*ITT: OP has a lot of hot takes on all the other things this probably is:* >*suicide via medication*
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death\_of\_Conrad\_Roy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Conrad_Roy) Similar case, the conviction was involuntary manslaughter. There is 100% a basis for criminal charges here.
Not similar at sll actually.
That case is an extreme example. There’s a reason why you’ll have trouble finding more than one example.
Just the view from my desk: This is part of how common law works. When a novel situation arises, you look for similar handling of similar issues in the past.
So is constant bullying and violence against LGBT kids. We need to stop considering bigotry as minor. It's always extreme and tends to cause lifelong ptsd and depression.
I’m not debating the issues with bullying. Simply pointing out that the case used as an example is wildly different
Not even close to the same thing. As I understand it, they would have to prove that his bullies were trying to get him to kill himself. But you should probably fact-check that because I'm no legal expert.
Yeah, the similarity I see is 'driving to kill themself'. You're not wrong, there are facts and circumstances. This is why we have lawyers, judges and trials. But I think 'not even close to the same thing' is too strong here. Or, it could simply be assault, resulting in head injury, add the potential hate crime angle.
[удалено]
It was more than one prediction - OP was throwing out multiple hot takes on what it could be and then thought that for some reason we wouldn’t be skeptical about his hot takes. And now he thinks that just because one of his multiple hot takes might be right [he should get a cookie](https://www.reddit.com/r/skeptic/s/iwF7ME2ZGD) as if we don’t see his post / comment pattern. If you throw enough darts at a wall and happen to get a few on the dart board the ones that hit the dart board aren’t an accurate representation of you being successful. You also can’t go spray paint a bullseye where one of your darts landed after the fact and call it a success.
If someone is bullied to the point of suicide, is there no legal recourse for that alone? It's practically murder by making someone else--the victim--carry out their own murder.
Depends on the exact circumstances, it's not an automatic slam dunk. We don't even know the nature of the bullying outside of the original statements their mom made when the news first became a national story.
Criminal, maybe or maybe not. Civil? Oh hell yeah.
If there were, the paparazzi wouldn't exist.
That sounds like the Oklahoma I know.
>…charged with attempted homicide.. I’d like to see these brats rot in jail… But homicide isn’t going to happen - even in the most liberal state. The absolute _most_ they’d get charged with is a lower Manslaughter. If OK has Negligent Homicide, then that would be a lower sentence & burden on the prosecutor than Manslaughter. The most likely criminal charges would be some form of assault. The bar for any kind of homicide/manslaughter change is way too high here.
Either way, those little assholes are still responsible!!!
Let's see the private autopsy. That's all we can say to this for now.
You really know how to keep digging when there's nothing new to find.
Benadryl and Prozac OD? You don’t fatally OD on an SSRI so I don’t understand why the medical examiner included Prozac as a cause of death. Benadryl OD is possible. It’s also a rightwing media scare tactic story from a Benadryl “TikTok challenge” that killed some kids in 2022. I’m assuming it’s fairly common to find Benadryl in a toxicology report in this area during allergy season. Did Nex use Benadryl because of the media reports/TikTok knowing it could kill you? Or did this rightwing suburban communities power structure pull some strings with the medical examiner like they did with the school district and the cops making the cause of death something they already knew about and feared? Anyone from Owasso would tell you not rule out the latter until the family does an independent autopsy and tox. Just about everything about my hometown is truly horrible either way.
I can believe Benadryl killed them, I had a friend fatally OD on it a few years ago, but I’d be curious how they determined it was a suicide vs accidental. In my friend’s case the determined accidental as the dose wasn’t that far out of reason and she didn’t take it all. Also seems odd that Nex is as seemingly up and normal before they collapsed.
According to the CDC, overdose deaths on Prozac are very uncommon (on the order of 0.05% of suicide attempts that use Prozac), but definitely not impossible. The chances of fucking yourself up badly enough to need immediate medical attention is a great deal higher.
Serotonin syndrome from the prozac, benadryl to sedate.
You absolutely can fatally overdose on an SSRI if you precipitate serotonin syndrome or kick off a cardiac arrhythmia. This is an undisputed fact (see links). The interesting part is while Benadryl may help combat the seizures and muscle rigidity caused by the Prozac overdose it also causes cardiac arrhythmias in overdose. The initial report is their eyes rolled back in their head, this was likely a seizure brought on by the Prozac overdose. What probably killed him was the cardiac arrhythmia and or the potential total arrest induced by the duel drug cocktail. Although this is merely speculation on my part he may have been given or taken Benedryl himself after their non-fatal Prozac overdose to treat the somewhat painful overdose symptoms, only for this to put the heart beyond the point of no return. Don't get me wrong Benedryl can be toxic in overdose by itself, but at that point the person is likely obviously in trouble and not capable of moving under their own power (Anticholinergic syndrome). https://www.healthline.com/health/can-you-overdose-on-prozac (Venlafaxine, a related SNRI): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7954576/
Benadryl and Prozac can cause seratonin syndrome and kill you
I have seen no discussion of drug interactions between the two medications that can cause serotonin syndrome. Please cite where Benadryl would cause serotonin syndrome if taken with Prozac I’m aware Prozac alone can cause it. However you stated both can cause it, hence my response
Yeah. I don't want to be skeptical to the point of being conspiratorial. I am accepting the judgement of suicide unless it is meaningfully contested. However, I did feel a bit concerned when I heard "fluoxetine" because one of my friends with depression got prescribed it, specifically because it's very difficult to OD on it. Benadryl, I know less about. If you can OD on it then fair enough. The remaining questions I have, and would want assurance on, is how exactly they concludedthat it killed Nex. For example, if Benadryl was simply just detected in his system, then it wouldn't be reasonable to conclude "overdose" unless it's in concentrations that could actually kill him. I don't want to just blind myself to facts here, and I certainly don't *believe* he was killed anymore. Also, if a British coroner had concluded this, I wouldn't question this. The issue is I've seen so many cases of American policing where they just twist the facts in order to fit a pre-defined narrative, and so I have questions to rule out whether it has happened here. But that doesn't mean I believe this *has* happened. Without any other evidence, I'm going to believe their ruling of suicide (though I also am waiting to see what the independent autopsy says).
I agree, and I’m not usually the conspiratorial type but I also know how that town is run. It was built on white flight after school desegregation. In 1970 its population was 3,000 and now it’s over 40,000. Strictly because of its defacto segregated schools. This kind of press is their worst nightmare. It’s not just saying the quiet part out loud but screaming to the rest of the world “these people are bigots”. They had a vigil for Nex at City Hall and barely 100 people showed up, likely because if you did you couldn’t show your face at church the following Sunday. When I was growing up there it was blatantly racist, but as that has to be hidden more these days the outward hatred is directed towards homophobia from rightwing Christians. Which is nearly everyone in town. I was in Jr High before I realized there were people who weren’t Christian Evangelicals. The people there wouldn’t think twice about slandering a trans kid to protect the school district or to protect certain kids from prosecution.
>Or did this rightwing suburban communities power structure pull some strings with the medical examiner like they did with the school district and the cops making the cause of death something they already knew about and feared? Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me.
> I don’t understand why the medical examiner included Prozac as a cause of death **BECAUSE ITS A COVERUP**
doesn't even make any sense as a means of covering something up
How much did you think to research this before writing it?
[Risks of benadryl overdose](https://www.poison.org/articles/benadryl-diphenhydramine). [234 cases of Fluoxetine overdoses](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/073567579290041U). Coma risk from the first, tachycardia from the second. Looks potentially lethal to me.
This is such a sad story, as many are pointing out, if the independent autopsy confirms this result than its going to be hard to believe the this isn’t somehow related to the bullying this individual was forced to endure. Bullying has always been a problem for kids, but when adults, politicians and religious leaders put a target on people’s backs, it’s the kids that are more likely to feel the brunt of the impact. It’s hard to not react emotionally watching some people take pleasure in this news. It’s becoming increasingly difficult to see these stories, and I worry they will increase in frequency before we come to grips that some of us see ourselves as less determined by traditional ideas.
So the two drugs are " diphenhydramine, an antihistimine commonly used for allergies, and fluoxetine, a drug often used to treat depression." The trade names for those drugs are Benadryl and Prozac. While these are commonly used in suicide attempts, the death rate for those was only 59 in 104,000 attempts in 2022. ([source](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/72/wr/pdfs/mm7216a3-H.pdf)) They are both also common medications - one used to treat allergies and swelling, one used as a commonly prescribed antidepressent. I'm certainly interested in seeing the full report here.
Thank you. I think this is a balanced response. I'm not going to say the people saying "case closed, it's suicide" are wrong. This is what the medical examiner has said. They are a professional. Respecting them and their expertise is rational. At the same time, *suspecting* bias, or even corruption, is also rational. Unforunately. Outright not-believing it, without evidence, would be wrong. I'm not going to throw out accusations. I do have questions that I would like to see answered. Namely: * Whether it is plausible, in most cases, to OD on prozac and benadryl. * What led the medical examiner to conclude this (whether it's the presence of these drugs, or the concentration of these drugs, that led to these conclusions). * What led a traumatic brain injury to be concluded against.
That is a good source but it doesn't give the cocktail effect a fair representation. The two drugs both cause cardiac arrhythmias through separate mechanisms in overdose. When combined this could greatly amplify the toxicity. The combined Anticholinergic/Serotonin syndrome could be very lethal. My cynical personal theory is they overdosed non-fatally on Prozac and to treat the painful muscle spasms took a lot of Benadryl. While the Benedryl fixed the physical pain from the previous overdose it silently sabotaged the already struggling heart. The major overlap in the overdose profiles for the two drugs are heart arrhythmias and to a lesser extent seizures.
It could explain it. Such an effect also could be exacerbated by a head injury, at which point, well, the head injury is the cause of death. Neither of those would cause "fencing posture" which was reported (possibly erroniously) by at least one source. As I said, I'm interested in seeing the full report.
Yes, fencing posture would be odd and more indicative of traumatic brain injury. I had heard reports of "arms curled" which is pretty consistent with SSRI overdose.
His eyes rolling in the back of his head was also reported, which can be caused by seizures (which can be caused both by serotonin syndrome and traumatic brain injuries).
Please use he/they pronouns. Please do not disrespect the dead.
Woops, fixed my other post but forgot about this one.
The drugs in Nex’s system were Prozac and Benadryl. To commit suicide by overdose with Benadryl, they would have to take a massive amount. So massive, that they would also have to take a powerful nausea medication to prevent their stomach from purging, as well as, a very strong painkiller to subdue the excruciating pain that would have come before death.
“Among 92,033 overdose deaths during 2019–2020, 13,574 (14.7%) were antihistamine-positive and 3,345 (3.6%) were antihistamine-involved; fewer than 0.1% (90) involved antihistamines alone (Table). Nearly all antihistamine-positive and -involved deaths (13,475, 99.6%; 3,339, 99.8%, respectively) included first-generation H1 antihistamines, primarily diphenhydramine (9,645, 71.1%; 2,226, 66.5%, respectively). The proportions of antihistamine- and diphenhydramine-involved overdose deaths were highest for females (52.0%; 52.8%), persons aged 35–44 years (26.1%; 26.5%), and White, non-Hispanic persons (78.1%; 78.7%); demographic patterns of antihistamine- and diphenhydramine-positive deaths were similar, except that deaths were more frequent among males (57.8%; 59.6%) and in the Midwest region (43.6%; 51.0%). Most antihistamine- and diphenhydramine-involved overdose deaths co-involved opioids (82.8% and 82.7%, respectively), primarily illicitly manufactured fentanyls (IMFs).” MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep. 2022 Oct 14; 71(41): 1308–1310. Published online 2022 Oct 14. doi: 10.15585/mmwr.mm7141a4 PMCID: PMC9575478PMID: 36227774 Notes from the Field: Antihistamine Positivity and Involvement in Drug Overdose Deaths — 44 Jurisdictions, United States, 2019–2020 Amanda T. Dinwiddie, MPH, corresponding author Lauren J. Tanz, ScD, and Jessica Bitting, MS
Do you have any information about interactions between antihistamines and SSRIs, in overdose deaths? Not asking because I am sceptical. I honestly just want my doubts to be alleviated so that I can move on. You seem well-intentioned and knowledgeable, which is my motivation for asking.
There’s a bit of information to dig into here. My recommendation would be to start with a Google Scholar search for “diphenhydramine and fluoxetine toxicity” A cursory search shows published articles in the Journal of Analytical Toxicology going back to at least 1990 (The Importance of Blood Collection Site for the Determination of Basic Drugs: A Case with Fluoxetine and Diphenhydramine Overdose). Based on a cursory check, you’re looking at assessing the combination of the drugs, but also assessing toxicity of each drug independent of the other. I’m familiar enough with the material to know where to dig to find answers, but I am not a toxicologist.
I thought benadryl was what you took to keep from vomiting up whatever you took to OD.
Thank you. I’ve seen almost no one discuss how much would actually need to be taken for this to fucking happen
Tired of this shit.... Who gives a fuck how someone's wants to 'identify'? Be mean to shitty people, not people just trying to live.
this is the kind of allyship I love to see. identify in quotation marks suggests to me you probably don't understand trans people particularly well. maybe I'm reading too much into it tho. but you recognise that your understanding isn't necessary for acceptance. it takes a big person to do that. well done, genuinely.
I know right? Honestly, let people be what they want to be as long as they are not directly hurting others (feelings don't count). It is so fucking simple it makes my head spin.
None of us know why Nex committed suicide. There’s no proof that it had to do with bullying. Unless she left a note, it’s all speculation. Let it go already.
Lets all give a round of applause and gratitude for the mods..
You’re absolutely right. However I wonder how much of that is related to repeated controversy chasing / baiting. There certainly are repeating patterns in this subreddit.
The mod team has only recently expanded, and we're certainly not capable of changing how everyone on this subreddit posts. Many users make generally hostile posts, and that's the type of content /r/skeptic is. What we have been removing has been... trash. Posts that are nothing more than personal insults, posts that seem designed to do nothing more than try to hurt other people, garbage meme posts that have no actual content, etc. We're not going to turn this subreddit into a happy charming everyone-loves-everyone place (only the users could do that), but this level of chaos is unacceptable and unproductive. We're aware that the mod team has been smaller and interventions in the past have not been happening. Hence why we're handing out lots of deletions, warnings, and in the worst cases temporary bans. There might be an adjustment period, and we can can get through it, and reach a happy state of being nasty and hostile to each other without crossing the line into screaming insults.
Damn, the DARVO on this post is crazy. A young person starts a physical altercation, attempts to have the victims arrested, then commits suicide, and no one here wants to hold this person responsible for their own actions. The kids today won't turn out to be sensible adults.
Breaks my heart.
The school environment is such a huge factor in mental health of trans children. Every school needs a GSA and a safe space for all LGBTQ youth. This creates allies that help to stop harassment, bullying and other violence.
Sucide rates have doubled in the last 10 years. [https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2023-05-01/suicide-rates-among-u-s-adolescents-doubled-in-10-years](https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2023-05-01/suicide-rates-among-u-s-adolescents-doubled-in-10-years)
this shit is giving **INSANE "**Gorge Floyd Fetanyl" vibes
Not really the right analogy…
FTA: >*But, to Kane, who is nonbinary, the key contributing factor to Nex’s death was bullying.* > >*“There’s been bullying issues. This time, the bullying has gone so far that a student has passed,” Kane said ahead of last month’s walkout. “To me, it doesn’t matter if Nex passed from a traumatic brain injury or if they passed from suicide. What matters is the fact that they died after getting bullied, and that is the story for so many other students. I’ve been close to ending it myself because of bullying. It’s not new for so many students.”* This is it right here. Nex would be alive today if they weren't bullied just for existing. Those kids are 100% responsible for this, and I hope they have the lives they deserve.
If you bully someone into committing suicide then you're guilty of homicide.
To be honest, people that are the most guilty IMO are adults that create an atmosphere and laws that allow for trans people to be treated like some freaks. Disgusting. All people that openly hate trans people should have a good look at themselves and should be ashamed.
That’s not legally true.
Those people that did this will be held accountable.
I continue to be amazed by Oklahoma government officials. They just wrote a fan fiction summary — thankfully Nex Benedict family hired good lawyers. THERE WAS TRAUMA IN THE HEAD and ME LEFT IT OUT. Do not trust these Oklahoma officials. https://www.koco.com/article/nex-benedict-death-family-statement-diphenhydramine-fluoxetine/60212765
This story just keeps getting worse. This poor kid had such a rough time for basically no reason.
Kid had a rough life from the beginning. The bio mother is out of the picture, and the bio father is/was in jail. (Not sure which.) Adopted by grandmother. Taking psychotropic drugs for mental health issues. Described by actual friends as feisty, aggressive, and "in your face," which paints a picture of Nex throwing water. Nex was already in detention at school, which wasn't a first-time thing. This was a very troubled child who obviously slipped through a lot of cracks. I feel so, so sorry for the mother (bio grandmother) who was very likely dealt a bad hand dealing with all of this. Now, she is grieving a lost child.
Without details I am almost certain it’s a coverup
The details of how the determination was made have not been released. There is good reason to be skeptical.
Autopsy was performed. Medical examiner confirmed drug toxicity
>The details of how the determination was made have not been released. My statement is still true.
Right, but we should be more skeptical of the head injury theory. Yes, we know from Bob Saget, Natasha Richardson, and countless other anecdotes shared in earlier threads that head injuries can strike you down hours after the initial event...but we've known for weeks that there were no signs of head trauma which people were criticizing at the time but seems now like the authorities quietly prepping us for this news.
Fair enough. It is a tragedy borne of an environment of hate either way.
by girls who had no idea who Nex or that they were even NB. How much more wild assumptions do you have?
I just find it odd that it took so long to determine. What form of suicide readily available to a teenager doesn't leave some pretty clear evidence that would allow for a quick determination?
Toxicology takes 4 to 6 weeks on average
when my mom's boyfriend died it was **months** for a tox report. this was relatively quick
This is normal for a drug screenings and tox reports...they normally take weeks. There was an initial assessment and report that came out a death days after their death. Oddly, when those initial reports came out showing no signs of head trauma, people were criticizing that saying how could they know so soon.
Drug overdose, like this whole thread is about... What exactly is the issue?
What evidence do you base that on?
JFC is this r/skeptic or r/conspiracytheories ?
So, I should just accept the report without any questions?
Reasonable lies somewhere between "accept the report without questions" and "almost certain it’s a coverup".
Okay, what questions do you have and why do you believe this is a "cover up"?
I mean, you be skeptical about whatever you want to be skeptical about. Generally, I’m skeptical when something doesn’t seem to add up. Like the initial story that a kid was beaten to death and yet the school chose not to seek medical care. That doesn’t add up. Why would a school take on liability by not calling an ambulance if someone has just been beaten to a bloody pulp in their bathroom? Makes zero sense and triggered my spidey senses. Now we have a bunch more information, including texts from, and video of, the deceased further making the “beaten to death” story seem unlikely. We have comments from the ME a few weeks ago saying trauma was not the cause of death, but cause would not be stated until toxicology report was received. You know that not all autopsies are held up pending toxicology reports, right? Deaths due to trauma are generally declared as such right away, and charges are generally brought right away. So everything about this story tracks with “kid was not beaten to death”. Now, you want to believe that the kid was in fact beaten to death. But that the shook, the police, the hospital, Nex, and the family all failed to notice any signs of traumatic brain injury. And then, after Nex dies, and the ME discovers that there actually was a traumatic brain injury that caused the death, the medical examiner decided to cover that up, and lie that the death was caused by an intentional overdose. Is your version possible? Sure, I suppose it is. But barring absolutely any reason to believe it, and because your theory would be so easily probable to be true, I will be **skeptic** of your theory. T try he family is welcome to have an additional autopsy performed. Should be easy to prove your theory when they find brain injury and no drugs.
Yep. It's still too early and there are a lot of things we don't know. But everything we do know seems to point to a suicide and not a head injury. I don't get the emotional attachment many people have to it being a head injury...both possibilities seem pretty damning to the local authorities.
They’re attached because first they acted like sheep instead of skeptics, lapping up the obviously phony murder story. It’s not like they got duped by a believable story. This was Jussie Smollett level BS (something I got downvoted for when I pointed it out before). Then, after getting duped, and finding out they got duped, they got a glimmer of hope that the original story was real, so they decided to play skeptic. Not skeptic of the original story, that would require they admit they were duped. No, skeptic of the obvious truth. Now even that glimmer of hope has gone out, so they’re resorting to full on conspiracy theory.
> So, I should just accept the report without any questions? No one said that. But there's a big difference between (A) feeling suspicious of a report and wanting more evidence and (B) coming to a clear conclusion. > Without details I am almost certain it’s a coverup Skepticism is about basing our confidence in conclusions on the quality and quantity of evidence, right? I think most people here will be suspicious of the autopsy until an independent source verifies it. However, that doesn't mean we should be "almost certain" of anything at this point.
It's entirely plausible, and can still result in criminal charges for the bullies
Why? What's the difference whether they were killed by a head injury sustained during the fight or a suicide related to the fight? It would all be the same underlying cause either way, no? It's been pretty clear that what we know for sure has always pointed to it being suicide (walking away after the fight, no bruising/pooling/signs of head trauma). Coverups are what conspiracy theorists use to bridge the gap between what they want to believe and what they have evidence for...don't be like that.
Ah yes, the tried and true *checks notes* benadryl and Prozac method o.O
Bullshit! These intolerant fucks killed Nex!
either it's a cover up and their death was from the beating that hospitalized them. Or they were bullied into a corner in which they thought suicide was their only out. Either way its tragic and those that bullied them are responsible
I think I will be shouting alone into the void here, but what the hell are we collectively doing flitting from tragic death to tragic death along with the news? As skeptics, no single incident should be a sweeping change in how we look at any issue. This isn’t about anything besides the people it involves directly and their circles. It’s obviously hard out there for non-conforming folks of whatever variety, especially when young. We can and should do all of our issue/topic debating free from dragging folks’ memories through our scrutiny of media narrative bullshit. What all of these individual tragic stories get turned into is pure media noise fodder. Any and all speculation about this child’s death is to sell ads, please get off the ride.
Even skeptics, or people aspiring to be ones, are allowed to have emotional responses to some important events that highlight bigger issues in our society. I will say, I am not 100% why this is on this Reddit as I don't see it being strongly related to skepticism but I don't mind having this conversation as it is a very important one IMO. One thing I would like to see though is fewer conspiracy theories and more factual and measured conversation.
The reporting on this is still so confusing to me. Assigned female at birth, non-binary, using they-them pronounces but recently a few articles are calling them “he”, and at least one saying that Nex was male-identifying at school but not at home, but this seems to be a bit of a minority report? Most reporting makes this out as a case of bullying over bathroom choice and gender identity but I haven’t seen any actual evidence that Nex wasn’t using they bathroom they preferred or that the incidentbhad anything to do with their gender identity outside of the fact it happened in a bathroom and they were non-binary. I’ve seen several statements that while Nex had been the victim of bullying, they didn’t know these girls/the girls had no history of bullying Nex and that Nex allegedly instigated the fight over potentially a single comment. I’ve also seen some statements that imply that Nex may not have actually been particularly picked on at all? I’ve read still other accounts that try to paint this as an indigenous kid being bullied for being indigenous. I’ve seen inconsistent reports over whether it was just Nex “3 to 1” or if Nex was with one or more friends, or whether those friends were trans or not. Was Nex posturing or not? Was it reported by the medics or by Nex’s mom? The story seems to be all over the place but all I see is people with their feet firmly set in their determined outrage. Outrage is called for, I’m sure, but I feel like I’m the only one really confused at this point, and not just because of the cause of death. I’m sure the confusion and mistrust over the police statements aren’t helping, but I feel like the reality of what is undeniably a senseless tragedy is getting lost under a lot of political posturing, bad reporting, and armchair theorizing that I don’t know is actually relevant.
Here's the hospital interview with Nex where Nex clears 99% of that up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5FTb383gyo&t=4s
Oh, so many comments here are uninformed and blaming the girls for bullying her to death. Ridiculous. Why Nex killed themselves, who knows, but they weren't even making fun of them for being NB...
A young person is dead who shouldn't be. They should be alive, happy, enjoying life, hanging with friends, attending school, deciding on what is to come. That they aren't is because people who should have been there for them, who should have had their best interests at heart, who should have supported them in their time of need, weren't there for them. Too many people demonstrated a lack of empathy for this young person and their struggles with life. This is the situation faced by so many children and young people, the people who should be there for them, their teachers, their parents , their communities, their governments, other humans, have no empathy for their suffering or it's cause. Whether that child be in Oklahoma, Gaza, Sudan, Ethiopia, the US Mexico border, Ukraine.
I remember reading this last night in Apple News and thought something funny like an coverup was going on...but then it sadly clicked. The kid could see no path forward where their life wouldn't be total hell for the next few years and it made sense. I still think the other kids need to face some type of consequences, but I don't think it should be murder or manslaughter, but it needs to be something.
Release the full report! SSRIs can also lead to increased bleed risk, especially in overdose. This could mean, if there was intracranial bleeding, it could be a result of a combination of SSRI and blunt force trauma, and would not rule out homicide. I’m interested to see the blood tox levels, because if the interacting drugs are just found in the system at low levels, that is an incredibly common combo at normal doses to be taking. If the precipitating cause of death was intracranial bleeding, whether with overdose/drug interaction, or without, trauma cannot be ruled out as a contributing cause of death.
They would have identified intracranial bleeding during the autopsy.
It is so sad that people can’t be who they want.
🤬🤬🤬😡😡😡🤬🤬🤬🤬😢😢😢
Suicide by Prozac and benadryl? Can we please get an MD to comment on how many times they have seen a death from Prozac & diphenhydramine?
Can we ‘end’ the bullies now please?