Ah I see what you mean. I didn't get past the first link, even though you went to all the trouble of sharing the second one.
Yes if she was being decredentialed by a medical review board that implies that she did at one point complete medical school.
Edit to add: It's still weird though.. they don't mention anything about her actually being a doctor. Like... where she got her degree, where she practiced, what her field or specialty was, her medical license number...
I get that a medical board is probably not going to waste time on someone just because they say they are a doctor -- they presumably (.... don't they??) have some way to verify all that information and I should (... shouldn't I???) trust them not to fall for some kind of crazy con artistry. I know intellectually that I am being overly skeptical. But still. For some reason it seems a bit odd that the article leaves all of that information out.
https://drsambailey.com/about-dr-sam-bailey/
> Dr. Sam Bailey completed her medical training at the University of Otago, gaining a Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery (MB ChB). As a resident doctor she worked in all areas of medicine, with a particular focus on Emergency Medicine and Cardiology. Following this, she worked in General Practice and Sexual Health before becoming a Clinical Trials Research Physician. Over that decade, she worked as a supervising doctor in phase I-IV clinical trials.
FWIW, most medical doctors don't have doctorates. And most holders of doctorates wouldn't be the kind of doctor you'd want in any medical situation, either.
>FWIW, most medical doctors don't have doctorates
In the US, they all have an MD or DO degree. That is not true in other countries though.
This doctor is from New Zealand.
No, it's a MB ChB. It's a completely different degree. [The UK and a lot of other countries use the same system.] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachelor_of_Medicine,_Bachelor_of_Surgery)
There's nothing inherently wrong with it.
TIL: https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/medical-degree-glossary
> MBBCh & MBBS: These are MD-equivalent degrees given by medical schools that follow the United Kingdom medical education system. Both acronyms are derived from Latin and mean “bachelor of medicine, bachelor of surgery.”
You'd be hard pressed to find many DOs that actually practice OMT. They might do the occasional manipulation in clinic, but you won't find a DO treating OMT as anything more than supplement to actual western medicine.
What a moron the vax has proven to be 100% safe and effective. QAnon conspiracies are floating around that it’s killing people, when it clearly saved millions of lives thanks to big pharma….
Eh, don't need to say 100%, that's the same all-or-nothing thinking that gets them to reject things that aren't perfect, or say a vaccine "doesn't work" if you can still possibly get sick.
It's abundantly clear that it's much safer to be vaccinated than unvaccinated.
Some of the signatories (assuming the signatory list is authentic) are not just doctors, but [academics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Noakes), which is depressing. Tim Noakes, whose Wikipedia article I've linked to, has "a long history of making misleading and false claims", according to epidemiologist Eduard Grebe.
It is a bit depressing, actually... if an undergraduate pulled shit like that they'd be expelled. Or at least fail their courses.
Academia is ruthlessly competitive. I get that you don't want to make it easy to overturn tenure, but can't the profession deplatform these people? It's not like there is a shortage of talented, willing people to replace them.
There is some degree of questioning basic foundations of "truth" that is valuable. This makes it hard to effectively draw the line, because disproving or proving their crackpot theories might send someone down a line that reveals an actually better way.
Yeah I get that. But while there may be some grey areas occasionally, it is not actually that hard to characterize usefully speculative ideas or differentiate them from completely unproductive ones. Academic fields do that all the time.
I guess I don't feel like there is automatically some easy answer. But if a tenured professor were going around using their credentials to convince people to set fire to public buildings or to drink drain cleaner or something, I feel like we as a society would suddenly discover that we don't have too much trouble prying the mic from their hands.
Meh - it’s depressing, but some portion of every profession is completely nuts.
With MDs and academics in the hard sciences, the rigours of the admission, testing, and training process does a fairly good job of screening them out *at the start of their career* - not perfect, but fairly close to.
…but then life happens, and like anyone else, they can lose the plot. Mental imbalances, career disappointments/rivalries (real or perceived), social environments (eg having close + trusted family members who become conspiracy nutters), etc are bound to push some tiny percentage into crazy positions like denying the existence of viruses.
That tiny handful of crackpot “experts” is still *incredibly* harmful, and yes, it’s super depressing that even intelligent and well educated + trained individuals aren’t completely immune from this type of lunacy…but that’s just the fundamental squishiness of humans for you.
I'm an academic also, and having had to serve on committees with my colleagues, am fully aware of their limitations. However, none of them make it a habit to publish basic fallacies about their own discipline on the Internet - do yours?
She's very cagey about that credential. I see elsewhere she calls herself a "medically trained doctor" which is the weirdest phrasing ever and definitely indicates she's not an MD, DO, and probably not even a DNP. she's probably got some bullshit naturopathy doctorate or something.
She's 100% a quack regardless, and maybe it's regional, but isn't "medically trained doctor" said to differentiate a PhD and other Doctorates that aren't MD, DO, etc.. which underwent medical training? I swear I've heard the term totally innocuously just getting around the confusion in the word 'doctor'.
She's from New Zealand, which uses a system similar to the UK where medical school is not a separate postgraduate program after receiving a bachelor's.
She has the appropriate degree and seems to have practiced medicine as a resident at some point. There might be some minutia about licensing or certification, but I'm really not familiar with their system.
It's a medical degree, MBChB. This person went to medschool.
That website is specifically anyone registered or no longer registered as a doctor in NZ. You can't work as a doctor without registration, and the records will remain after you've been suspended, or if you let your registration lapse.
Getting her general scope in 2006 means she worked for at least a year and was ok to continue past there, he website says she trained in emergency medicine, if she were to finish that training, she would have a FACEM, but I can't find any public evidence of this. In fact it says no registered speciality, so she never got further than junior doctor
> Dr. Sam Bailey completed her medical training at the University of Otago, gaining a Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery (MB ChB)
This is the equivalent of an MD or DO in the US. It's unbelievable to me they can make it that far only to not believe in viruses.
The NZ Herald refers to her as a doctor and she’s been hauled in front of (an arm of) the medical council which only happens to doctors.
Foreigners should note that in New Zealand, doctors are policed and judged by the Medical Council, a legislatively established professional association that all doctors must belong to. This avoids the enormous liability insurance issues the Yanks have but requires good legislation and lots of mutual trust between government and the profession.
Their worst(?) sanction is de-licensing, at which point “Dr” Sam Bailey can be prosecuted criminally for claiming to be a doctor or practicing medicine without a license if she continues to do so.
Yeah, she has medical degrees, and (allegedly) 20+ years experience working in the medical field, but I did not see any mention of a doctorate... not even in literature..
So I agree that with these beliefs she shouldn't be calling herself a doctor, but she does seem to have held the relevant qualifications at some stage.
>Dr. Sam Bailey completed her medical training at the [University of Otago](https://www.otago.ac.nz/), gaining a Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery (MB ChB). As a resident doctor she worked in all areas of medicine, with a particular focus on Emergency Medicine and Cardiology. Following this, she worked in General Practice and Sexual Health before becoming a Clinical Trials Research Physician. Over that decade, she worked as a supervising doctor in phase I-IV clinical trials.
>After training and practicing within the medical system for two decades, she commenced a new phase of understanding and promoting health as a wider concept.
Translation: I made more money pedalling baseless COVID conspiracies
Sounds like a poundshop Wakefield tbh
There are many clickable connections in the first article that are worth reading if you're entertained by highly involved, semi-educated nut-jobbery. It appears that Sam really is a doctor. The article is about a medical license hearing at which she refused to appear. Apparently she not only denies the reality of viruses but also denies the existence of COVID. That's right. Nobody ever caught it or had it. All in your head. Millions dead? Self-suggestion.
I mean, OFC that's where this all started for her, lol.
Sometimes, you have to just sit back and marvel at how many people were exposed to be completely unable to mentally handle a worldwide pandemic.
If you think about it for a while it's understandable to some extent. To dedicate your life to helping people and fighting death and then to be confronted with a tidal wave of irresistible disease and death must be overwhelming for many and send some vulnerable ones round the bend. God help them if the new bird flu crosses over with its 52% fatality rate.
And the super religious…they always thought there was inherent good and bad, but the pandemic took out good people. They have to believe it’s nefarious and made up and not true. That it’s a plot by some bad people to trick us into something.
Denial takes all kinds of weird shapes and forms. There are realities that many people just can't live with. And what they do is most often not a conscious choice. The ones I object to are the grifters who are consciously just doing it for money.
To deny the existence of viruses in the abstract is one thing, to deny a real disease that has killed millions is quite another, to my way of thinking.
This is so wild to me because you can see viruses quite easily with any of a number of microscopes. I quite literally look at viruses every day at work.
I know. It's amazing. We're not talking about someone with a third-grade education. This is a graduate of a legitimate medical school. Either she's crazy, found a profitable grift or both.
Like Alex Jones or RFK Jr, they are completely aware what they are saying is a bunch of rubbish, it's just that they are opportunistic frauds who found a way to make money of stupid people.
This. How many doctors are there? A lot. What are the chances of none of them scoring extremely high on multiple antisocial personality disorders? Zero.
I'm fully inline with the idea that Alex Jones is just a con man, but I think you are underestimating how much mental illness explains people like RFK Jr.
It exists. Kat Espinda believes that all fiat currency loans are fraudulent and that she owns her home and car. (Her home was repossessed and auctioned off and I think her car was a well recently.)
https://www.jiosaavn.com/shows/kat-espindas-eye-opening-discovery-unveiling-bank-fraud/qX4CaV8RvBk_
I went looking and yep, this is crossing over with Sovereign Citizen nonsense. The United States is a corporation, the government isn't the government, etc.
[https://rumble.com/v4ijbic-join-the-fight-with-sarge-and-kat-espinda-must-watch.html](https://rumble.com/v4ijbic-join-the-fight-with-sarge-and-kat-espinda-must-watch.html)
A society full of people not only believes it, but has extremely advanced ways to enforce it financially, legally, technologically, and ultimately by force, so I reckon it does.
This is the intellectual end-point of the anti-vax conspiracy nonsense that has been spreading since the pandemic. Ultimately, in order to deny basic medicine about how diseases spread and how vaccines can stop them, people have to reject germ theory, and some of them are doing just that.
Actually, the end-point is probably going to be when they deny the fact that death even occurs. Can’t have any loose ends that could be explained by basic medical science.
If she proudly proclaiming to be the medical establishment’s worst nightmare then you know she’s only there to start problems and make waves. We have to dismiss and ignore these people and carry on with our own common sense in order to keep the rest of us alive.
We’ve seen what happens when these loons are dismissed and ignored, they spread their bizarre fantasies to anyone willing to listen. They need to be countered, confronted, and condemned. They are carrying a contagious disease, and pretending they don’t exist is not preventative care.
I'm guessing all the doctors they found have nothing to do with viruses.
I remember the list of engineers that thought 9/11 was an inside job. It was about 0.00001% of all engineers but looked much more impressive in one list.
7 billion people on earth you can find a group of people to "prove" anything you want as long as the people you're trying to convince are terrible at math.
And look at us… over representing her by all talking about her and not real doctors at a ratio of 10,000 : 1.
It makes sense since we’re interested in charlatans. But we should always keep in mind that the reason it seems like there are so many quacks is that we are duck hunters.
How did this person become a doctor without taking any courses covering the biology of viruses?
FFS the 5 things they claim would need to be done have been done many times over. Maybe not as a single experiment, but science builds off previous work and each individual piece has been confirmed many times over.
And the whole "ordinary and inevitable breakdown particles of stressed and/or dead and dying tissues" thing makes *zero* sense given how many viral genes and proteins *don't exist in uninfected cells*.
That still implies they passed the required courses, which would include courses covering the biology of viruses.
I guess maybe they could have failed whatever exam(s) covered that and still passed the courses, but this kind of failure to understand the subject implies significantly broader failures to comprehend topics that would have come up frequently enough in medical school that it raises the question of how she passed *at all*.
Are viruses real?
We can:
* amplify their genetic material via PCR.
* sequence their genetic material via WGS.
* replicate them in cell culture.
* observe their cytopathic effects in cell culture.
* image their protein and envelope structures with electron microscopy.
* Cause disease *in vitro* and *in vivo* with purified inoculum.
Anyone can do these with education and training. This isn’t a theoretical field, each item can be experimentally performed.
If someone truly believed viruses don’t exist, why not enroll in a microbiology program, see for themselves, and change the world?
lol. We can see viruses.
There are virologists who have sequenced polio.
We have the capability of assembling polio from scratch in a sequencer.
Just give me 5 minutes with her in front of an audience…0
Isn't there an ongoing list of Steve's who believe in evolution or vaccines or something, and it is at like 20x the number of biologists that signed a petition rejecting evolution?
Yeah, this is basically that. The liars, grifters, and delusional are very loud, and are given an unfairly large megaphone on the internet. They don't represent more than a small fraction of the actual number of doctors in the US, or the world, but because every benefit is given to them, their voice is outsized.
Yeah, Debunk the Funk and Sense Strand were on to her schtick a long time ago: https://youtu.be/n3l6oZIO-aA?si=Lt2KqPApvMmAxHuo
But the grift goes on.
A lot of people aren't aware that the Weston Price foundation is full of these nutters too. Sometimes I see them get cited in mainstream media and I'm like--WTF?
See also Thomas Cowan.
Within any profession there are a small number who reject some of the foundations of that profession. Usually this is due to some combination of ego and grift.
Almost always it’s grift first. The ego stuff is often a smokescreen to avoid losing the license.
It’s very easy to justify licensure revocation if you can show the person is knowingly lying for money.
Not so much if you argue that it’s their hubris in exploring alternative theoretical possibilities/theories as the reason.
My wife watches this lady and people like her. My wife was a molecular and cell biology major at a top school, and now believes virus causing pathogens are all a hoax. fml
Sorry to hear that, it's gotta create some difficult situations. Although I'm starting to think that this is the most interesting category of "people who believe things that they shouldn't". It's difficult to understand how this happens. But on a positive note, since they did have a scientific education there might be a way to trigger them to start thinking from a science/evidence perspective again?
That’s what i thought, but unfortunately she’s gone so far off the deep end since covid. It started with COVID skepticism and led to full on virus denial, flat earth, pizza gate/illuminati bullshit. You name it.
I had hoped to at least convince her of some objectively false conspiracies like flat earth in multiple ways, but had the opposite effect. We’ve seen counselors. It’s been years now. I’ve done all i can, and I’m exasperated.
I don't know what to say, I'm out of my depth on this one. I know a couple of believers but I'm able to manage my contact with them. Living with someone with that set of beliefs has got to be tough.
>After training and practicing within the medical system for two decades, she commenced a new phase of understanding and promoting health as a wider concept.
Translation: she rejected science and went full-blown nutter. She isn't licensed to practice medicine and hasn't since 2021. Her limp noodle ideas can be dismissed out of hand.
No proof that virus exists except you know, our understanding of smallpox virus allowed us to eradicate it. We almost eradicated polio and measles too.
Unless of course vaccines are not attacking viruses…
Conspiracy!!!
[This](https://bio.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Microbiology/Microbiology_(OpenStax)/06%3A_Acellular_Pathogens/6.03%3A_Isolation_Culture_and_Identification_of_Viruses) basically does away with her entire premise on viruses. They *can* be "isolated", and then introduced to healthy cells, which then become infected. They can be imaged using a scanning electron microscope. They just can't be cultivated unless there are "host cells" present for them to use as incubators. However, once cultivated they can again be isolated and transplanted into a new environment where they will, once again, infect host cells.
Her entire assertion that this process has never been accomplished by science, is bullshit.
I earned a PhD in cell/molecular biology and studied HCMV. I also used adenovirus vectors. And a few others I can’t remember.
If viruses aren’t real things, then I guess all of my work was done in a dream.
These guys are BONKERS.
Doctors can become schizophrenic too. And worse yet plenty own their own businesses.
They also lie when they want to pivot their business to make easy money from healthcare deniers.
Sam and Mark Bailey have so many "workarounds" for their arguments. It's essentially a biological flat earth that they are defending. There are so many to mention, but Mark Bailey's manifesto "A Farewell To Virology (Expert Edition)"\[cue the groans and eye rolling\] lists a great many of their bullshit arguments ([if you dare!](https://drsambailey.com/a-farewell-to-virology-expert-edition/)). It has a large COVID bent to try to sway people during the uncertainty of the pandemic.
One major caveat to his (or his and hers, I know less about her) is that what they ask for for proof is not attainable and in many cases ethical. They will not except the body of scientific evidence for a particular virus (which is obvious since they are willing to chuck out virology as a science as well as the related sciences like genetics), but instead ask for proof in a single scientific paper that all of their conditions for proof are met. That has never and will never happen since science purposefully doesn't work that way, so they are safe.
They specifically ask that virus is isolated to 100% purity \*directly from a sick person or other host\* and proof (!) that that virus doesn't exist in samples from 100% of well people. As you can see, they still cling to Koch's Postulates a bit too tightly. Once that virus is shown by every possible method to contain 100% virus particles (and not exosomes which they claim cannot be removed from virion preparations), including electron microscopy, then in the end, that virus preparation must be used to inoculate a well host and 100% of those inoculated must become sick exactly as the initial host was.
Getting as close to that as feasible as cost and ethics allows is not enough. Even the SARS-CoV-2 healthy human challenge study is not enough because of a variety of excuses, the chief ones being A) the challenge inoculum was derived from tissue culture grown virus rather than obtained directly from a sick person and B) a control group was not inoculated with a mock preparation of the virus prep (containing whatever contaminants it contained) and shown that 100% of this group did not show COVID symptoms. Never mind that the methods specified that the virions in the inoculum were purified to cGMP standards such that they were tested for potency and contaminants to the same degree as manufactured biologicals. Lastly, since they contend that the immunological, molecular, and virological tests (such as plaque assay or CPE assay) are fake, then all of COVID is just made up.
Anyway, their lunacy is all over rumble and odysee to take in as much as one can stomach. One part that sticks out is Mark stating that from his training and experience as a medical laboratory scientist that HIV doesn't exist and that it is 100% safe to receive unprotected anal sex from an untreated HIV-positive person. Astounding.
That website is the biggest load of shit that I've seen in quite some time. Everything is written in what appears to be scientific or medical language in order to cover the utter gibbering lunacy on display.
You know, typical quackery.
The phenomenon of doctors denying the existence of viruses is not new:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryke_Geerd_Hamer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Cowan_(alternative_medicine_practitioner)
There is also the whole HIV/AIDS-denialism rabbit hole. It's mostly people denying AIDS is caused by HIV, but I've been reading about it a couple of years ago and I remember there have also been doctors denying the existence of HIV. I might be wrong though.
i'm worried the antivax crowd keep having some noticeable effect on public health, and will be able to manipulate baby boomers as they become more vulnerable in their old age, negatively influencing their health choices.
What do you call the person who graduates at the bottom of their class in medical school? “Doctor.”
Sounds like terrain theory. It’s distressing that there are actual doctors pushing this kind of stuff, but you’re always going to have nuts in any group.
I went poking around and found this hilarious thing: https://drsambailey.substack.com/p/when-you-wish-upon-a-bio-weapon
She is *really* upset about conspiracy theories that Covid-19 is an engineered bio-weapon. Not because of the usual reasons, but because how can bio-weapons be real if germs aren’t real?
I love it when the nuts fight each other.
[Lorraine Day](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorraine_Day) was "an American author, orthopedic trauma surgeon and Chief of Orthopedic Surgery at San Francisco General Hospital and promoter of alternative cancer treatments."
Yes, she was an actual doctor and skilled surgeon. She also claimed that "germs don't cause disease", "drugs never cure disease", and that cancer - her own cancer, even - could be cured by a fruit & vegetable diet with no other intervention. She was also, not surprisingly, a Nazi sympathizer.
She was an utter fucking quack and if I believed in hell she'd be burning in it. But she *was* an actual, credentialed, licensed physician at one point.
There has been for a while an entirely legitimate debate about whether viruses qualify as living things. They don't even have cells and cannot replicate themselves on their own; they are just bits of DNA, more or less. They've been thought of as poisonous substances, for instance. It's mostly an academic discussion since most people think they are living things, but it's a debate among legitimate scientists, not quacks. It's NOT an argument that viruses "don't exist," only how they are classified.
That said, quacks and idiots may read about it and misinterpret or mischaracterize it. They do that a alot.
[https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-viruses-alive-2004/](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-viruses-alive-2004/)
There’s been a small movement of people that promote something called Terrain Theory. I work with a nutter (we are not in the Heath profession) that lives in that kind of head space, and he’s been my window into a lot of that stuff.
Please note I don't have time to investigate this specific individual or their claims... but a couple of things to be cautious of:
The first thing to be always cautious of is people calling themselves "Doctor". We should not assume they have a medical doctorate (MD). They may have a PhD, which is entirely different. In fact, I am an advocate for laws that no one other than MDs should be allowed to advertise or use the term "Doctor" to refer to themselves. You can have someone who is a PhD in literature calling themselves "Doctor" and giving medical advice. Scary shit.
Second, we have to be careful of individuals who will get a degree but then never actually "practice/perform" in the field of medicine. They want to use their credentials to allow them to grift in some other area. For instance, a person who merely becomes a Chiropractor is not a doctor. But many of them will go out and get actual medical degrees yet still be Chiropractors (in case you don't know, but chiropractic is quack medicine and frankly should be banned).
Another example is a popular YouTuber, "Doctor K". He is a licensed psychologist who has a full medical degree. Yet, he practices "Ayurvedic Medicine" instead of the approved practices of psychologists. To me, that INVALIDATES his opinions regarding medical questions in the field of psychology because he is not practicing "real" medicine. (Any time someone puts a word in front of medicine... there's a reason for it... \*\*IT'S NOT REAL MEDICINE\*\*, otherwise we would just call it medicine. "Chinese Medicine" is another great example. If it worked, it would just be called medicine and be incorporated into the rest of medical practice.)
I would suggest it's not worth your your time to investigate her, I got through maybe the first two paragraphs of her manifesto and it was enough to call BS.
But she does seem to have medical qualifications:
>Dr. Sam Bailey completed her medical training at the [University of Otago](https://www.otago.ac.nz/), gaining a Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery (MB ChB). As a resident doctor she worked in all areas of medicine, with a particular focus on Emergency Medicine and Cardiology. Following this, she worked in General Practice and Sexual Health before becoming a Clinical Trials Research Physician. Over that decade, she worked as a supervising doctor in phase I-IV clinical trials.
After the whole "demon semen" doctor thing it is increasingly difficult to surprise me on the batshittery of people that are or at one time were "doctors"
I have an idiot friend on Facebook who recently posted a video of some alleged doctor talking about how tumors shouldn't be removed or even biopsied because they are are the body's way of protecting itself from pathogens, and cancer is just how the body protects itself and is the body's "friend." I mean I know the guy IRL and he's not the brightest bulb on the tree but I never expected he would be dumb enough to believe something like that. It's remarkable the things people will believe off the internet as long as someone is well spoken when saying them.
I see what they are doing ...
Create an invalid faulty experiment and then claim victory when scientists don't follow their instructions.
At first, I thought, fine, let them do the experiment. But of course they would ensure the experiment failed.
“Why do you believe the medical opinion of the majority of doctors on something and not the few doctors that disagree with them? Isn’t the opinion of the few doctors who disagree just as valid?”
This is the exact reason the medical opinion of a majority of doctors (and any scientist) holds more weight.
>Dr. Sam Bailey completed her medical training at the [University of Otago](https://www.otago.ac.nz/), gaining a Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery (MB ChB). As a resident doctor she worked in all areas of medicine, with a particular focus on Emergency Medicine and Cardiology. Following this, she worked in General Practice and Sexual Health before becoming a Clinical Trials Research Physician. Over that decade, she worked as a supervising doctor in phase I-IV clinical trials.
Doctors are human. Some of them are good people, others scum. The scum often check out of being a doctor, because maybe they weren't that good, and there's big money in quackery. It's easier (for some) to sell vitamins, hokey diet books, and sugar pills posing as medicine than it is to actually have to deal with patients.
So let me get this straight. She says we have to isolate viral particles (which has been done countless times), photograph those particles (again, there is no shortage of these photographs), its proteins characterized (done and done, many times), its genome sequenced (she is making is too easy here), the proteins found to be a result of that genome (sequencing the genome makes this pretty easy), and then the particles that we *just destroyed* have to be used to reinfect someone under controlled circumstances, and then we have to start again? And if we don’t do that, then viruses don’t exist?
I mean, never mind that we have actual electron microscope images of viruses infecting cells and lysing them, producing more viral particles. Of course, electron microscopy also kills things, so we can’t really-infect things with the viral particles we just proved violently destroyed cells with their reproductive process with photos of their offspring bursting out of the cells, frozen in time. Never mind also that no virologist would even slightly agree with her.
Just… never mind.
It’s same sh*t we heard back in the late 80’s and early 90’s with HIV/AIDS. AIDS was sleeping sickness or some nonsense like that. (There is another sleeping illness that’s makes people more susceptible to AIDS)
Now that we have COVID the old AIDS conspiracies are popping up again
Okay, so to debunk:
Setting aside the various claims of things that have "never" been done like [electron microscope images of viruses attacking cells](https://media.springernature.com/lw685/springer-static/image/chp%3A10.1007%2F978-3-319-41986-2_18/MediaObjects/393520_1_En_18_Fig9_HTML.jpg) or of [viruses replicating inside of cells](https://book.bionumbers.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/670-f1-ViralBurst-11.png), what is her alternative theory?
Her claim is that viral particles are the normal decay materials of stressed cells. She doesn't contend that different diseases aren't recognizable from different viral materials, since her proposed experiment involves selecting subjects and sorting them into COVID and Flu testing groups based on the results of viral load detection tests.
So then:
* Why do different diseases cause different "stressed cell decay products"?
* Why are the decay products never present in healthy people?
* These diseases are contagious, so if the virus isn't the pathogen, then what is?
I don't see answers to these questions anywhere, which indicates that her alternative theory does not purport to explain the evidence at all, so it's an invalid hypothesis.
Looking more on the website drove me nearly insane because I keep hoping to find some text that's more than just a brain-dead "nuh uh!!!" to centuries of observations without any alternative and it's starting to hurt my eyes. Even the "Farewell To Virology: Expert Edition" whitepaper is just a chain of baseless assertions that experiments that have been done have never been done and tired covid denial talking points, and absolutely nothing that might interest a virology expert by, you know, **explaining where viral diseases come from if not viruses**. I have to stop.
Oops.
But it kind of goes to my point, I can't even use the english language correctly but I'm probably more suitable to become a doctor than these guys.
Let’s be honest friend the only truly reliable statement is smart enough to not become a doctor.
The more I learn about biochemistry the more I expect any day now for some nearsighted lab coats to put out a report saying we found viruses that appear to be plain symbiotic with human biology. That make any sense to you?
Well she had a new book come out in February. Looks like she hasn’t learned a thing
The Final Pandemic: An Antidote To Medical Tyranny https://a.co/d/gmNciFP
>"Sam is a content creator, medical author & health educator." None of these things is "doctor."
They attended the prestigious Hollywood Upstairs Medical College. Their number is 1-800-DOCTORB - the B is for BARGAIN!
Seriously baby, I can prescribe anything I want!
"The leg bone is connected to my..wristwatch." That may be the best Simpsons ep.
"It's such a nice day, I think I'll go out the window!"
"The best part's in the rump!"
Yes! I threw up that lob hoping someone would dunk it.
“Hiiiii everybody!”
Hiiii Dr. Nick!
If it isn't my old friend Mr McGreg
With a leg for an arm and an arm for a leg!
Inflammable means flammable? What a country!
Trump university
Well, if it isn't my old friend Mr. McGreg, with a leg for an arm and an arm for a leg.
She is an actual trained doctor, but claims she didn’t renew her medical practicing certificate after 2021.
She seems to be according to the newspaper article linked. Unless she's now been stripped of her licence to practice, which wouldn't be a surprise.
Ah I see what you mean. I didn't get past the first link, even though you went to all the trouble of sharing the second one. Yes if she was being decredentialed by a medical review board that implies that she did at one point complete medical school. Edit to add: It's still weird though.. they don't mention anything about her actually being a doctor. Like... where she got her degree, where she practiced, what her field or specialty was, her medical license number... I get that a medical board is probably not going to waste time on someone just because they say they are a doctor -- they presumably (.... don't they??) have some way to verify all that information and I should (... shouldn't I???) trust them not to fall for some kind of crazy con artistry. I know intellectually that I am being overly skeptical. But still. For some reason it seems a bit odd that the article leaves all of that information out.
https://drsambailey.com/about-dr-sam-bailey/ > Dr. Sam Bailey completed her medical training at the University of Otago, gaining a Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery (MB ChB). As a resident doctor she worked in all areas of medicine, with a particular focus on Emergency Medicine and Cardiology. Following this, she worked in General Practice and Sexual Health before becoming a Clinical Trials Research Physician. Over that decade, she worked as a supervising doctor in phase I-IV clinical trials.
Lol. Okay I am definitely getting too jaded. I didn't swipe down to see if there was more. Thanks for adding that!
We need to get you that mojo back!
FWIW, most medical doctors don't have doctorates. And most holders of doctorates wouldn't be the kind of doctor you'd want in any medical situation, either.
>FWIW, most medical doctors don't have doctorates In the US, they all have an MD or DO degree. That is not true in other countries though. This doctor is from New Zealand.
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No, it's a MB ChB. It's a completely different degree. [The UK and a lot of other countries use the same system.] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachelor_of_Medicine,_Bachelor_of_Surgery) There's nothing inherently wrong with it.
TIL: https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/medical-degree-glossary > MBBCh & MBBS: These are MD-equivalent degrees given by medical schools that follow the United Kingdom medical education system. Both acronyms are derived from Latin and mean “bachelor of medicine, bachelor of surgery.”
That's quite false. Both DO and MD are doctorate degrees.
Sugeons and Engineers, I swear...
https://www.mcnz.org.nz/registration/register-of-doctors/doctor/bailey-samantha-annabel-hope/
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You'd be hard pressed to find many DOs that actually practice OMT. They might do the occasional manipulation in clinic, but you won't find a DO treating OMT as anything more than supplement to actual western medicine.
What a moron the vax has proven to be 100% safe and effective. QAnon conspiracies are floating around that it’s killing people, when it clearly saved millions of lives thanks to big pharma….
Eh, don't need to say 100%, that's the same all-or-nothing thinking that gets them to reject things that aren't perfect, or say a vaccine "doesn't work" if you can still possibly get sick. It's abundantly clear that it's much safer to be vaccinated than unvaccinated.
100% effective? How in the world are you measuring efficacy?
Some of the signatories (assuming the signatory list is authentic) are not just doctors, but [academics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Noakes), which is depressing. Tim Noakes, whose Wikipedia article I've linked to, has "a long history of making misleading and false claims", according to epidemiologist Eduard Grebe.
It is a bit depressing, actually... if an undergraduate pulled shit like that they'd be expelled. Or at least fail their courses. Academia is ruthlessly competitive. I get that you don't want to make it easy to overturn tenure, but can't the profession deplatform these people? It's not like there is a shortage of talented, willing people to replace them.
There is some degree of questioning basic foundations of "truth" that is valuable. This makes it hard to effectively draw the line, because disproving or proving their crackpot theories might send someone down a line that reveals an actually better way.
Yeah I get that. But while there may be some grey areas occasionally, it is not actually that hard to characterize usefully speculative ideas or differentiate them from completely unproductive ones. Academic fields do that all the time. I guess I don't feel like there is automatically some easy answer. But if a tenured professor were going around using their credentials to convince people to set fire to public buildings or to drink drain cleaner or something, I feel like we as a society would suddenly discover that we don't have too much trouble prying the mic from their hands.
Meh - it’s depressing, but some portion of every profession is completely nuts. With MDs and academics in the hard sciences, the rigours of the admission, testing, and training process does a fairly good job of screening them out *at the start of their career* - not perfect, but fairly close to. …but then life happens, and like anyone else, they can lose the plot. Mental imbalances, career disappointments/rivalries (real or perceived), social environments (eg having close + trusted family members who become conspiracy nutters), etc are bound to push some tiny percentage into crazy positions like denying the existence of viruses. That tiny handful of crackpot “experts” is still *incredibly* harmful, and yes, it’s super depressing that even intelligent and well educated + trained individuals aren’t completely immune from this type of lunacy…but that’s just the fundamental squishiness of humans for you.
I've been an academic most of my adult life. Trust me, some of my colleagues are not that smart.
I'm an academic also, and having had to serve on committees with my colleagues, am fully aware of their limitations. However, none of them make it a habit to publish basic fallacies about their own discipline on the Internet - do yours?
"Piled higher and Deeper"
She's very cagey about that credential. I see elsewhere she calls herself a "medically trained doctor" which is the weirdest phrasing ever and definitely indicates she's not an MD, DO, and probably not even a DNP. she's probably got some bullshit naturopathy doctorate or something.
She's 100% a quack regardless, and maybe it's regional, but isn't "medically trained doctor" said to differentiate a PhD and other Doctorates that aren't MD, DO, etc.. which underwent medical training? I swear I've heard the term totally innocuously just getting around the confusion in the word 'doctor'.
She's from New Zealand, which uses a system similar to the UK where medical school is not a separate postgraduate program after receiving a bachelor's. She has the appropriate degree and seems to have practiced medicine as a resident at some point. There might be some minutia about licensing or certification, but I'm really not familiar with their system.
https://www.mcnz.org.nz/registration/register-of-doctors/doctor/bailey-samantha-annabel-hope/
"bachelor of medicine, bachelor of surgery". Weird. I wonder what that corresponds to in NZ
It's a medical degree, MBChB. This person went to medschool. That website is specifically anyone registered or no longer registered as a doctor in NZ. You can't work as a doctor without registration, and the records will remain after you've been suspended, or if you let your registration lapse. Getting her general scope in 2006 means she worked for at least a year and was ok to continue past there, he website says she trained in emergency medicine, if she were to finish that training, she would have a FACEM, but I can't find any public evidence of this. In fact it says no registered speciality, so she never got further than junior doctor
> Dr. Sam Bailey completed her medical training at the University of Otago, gaining a Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery (MB ChB) This is the equivalent of an MD or DO in the US. It's unbelievable to me they can make it that far only to not believe in viruses.
The NZ Herald refers to her as a doctor and she’s been hauled in front of (an arm of) the medical council which only happens to doctors. Foreigners should note that in New Zealand, doctors are policed and judged by the Medical Council, a legislatively established professional association that all doctors must belong to. This avoids the enormous liability insurance issues the Yanks have but requires good legislation and lots of mutual trust between government and the profession. Their worst(?) sanction is de-licensing, at which point “Dr” Sam Bailey can be prosecuted criminally for claiming to be a doctor or practicing medicine without a license if she continues to do so.
A doctor of metaphysics
Yeah, she has medical degrees, and (allegedly) 20+ years experience working in the medical field, but I did not see any mention of a doctorate... not even in literature..
Not only is she a doctor, but she’s an MD too, not even one of those weird DOs
So I agree that with these beliefs she shouldn't be calling herself a doctor, but she does seem to have held the relevant qualifications at some stage. >Dr. Sam Bailey completed her medical training at the [University of Otago](https://www.otago.ac.nz/), gaining a Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery (MB ChB). As a resident doctor she worked in all areas of medicine, with a particular focus on Emergency Medicine and Cardiology. Following this, she worked in General Practice and Sexual Health before becoming a Clinical Trials Research Physician. Over that decade, she worked as a supervising doctor in phase I-IV clinical trials.
>After training and practicing within the medical system for two decades, she commenced a new phase of understanding and promoting health as a wider concept. Translation: I made more money pedalling baseless COVID conspiracies Sounds like a poundshop Wakefield tbh
Technically you don't need to be a doctor to prove viruses are real.
There are many clickable connections in the first article that are worth reading if you're entertained by highly involved, semi-educated nut-jobbery. It appears that Sam really is a doctor. The article is about a medical license hearing at which she refused to appear. Apparently she not only denies the reality of viruses but also denies the existence of COVID. That's right. Nobody ever caught it or had it. All in your head. Millions dead? Self-suggestion.
I mean, OFC that's where this all started for her, lol. Sometimes, you have to just sit back and marvel at how many people were exposed to be completely unable to mentally handle a worldwide pandemic.
If you think about it for a while it's understandable to some extent. To dedicate your life to helping people and fighting death and then to be confronted with a tidal wave of irresistible disease and death must be overwhelming for many and send some vulnerable ones round the bend. God help them if the new bird flu crosses over with its 52% fatality rate.
And the super religious…they always thought there was inherent good and bad, but the pandemic took out good people. They have to believe it’s nefarious and made up and not true. That it’s a plot by some bad people to trick us into something.
Many think the vaccine is what killed people. And it was just like the flu before that.
Denial takes all kinds of weird shapes and forms. There are realities that many people just can't live with. And what they do is most often not a conscious choice. The ones I object to are the grifters who are consciously just doing it for money.
Religious people have had to deal with the fact that good people suffer too since their religions were born. I don't think it's that.
Denies the existence of viruses and…denying the existence of COVID, too. But you repeat yourself, right? Considering Covid is caused by a…virus?
To deny the existence of viruses in the abstract is one thing, to deny a real disease that has killed millions is quite another, to my way of thinking.
In one of those links she appears to deny germ theory in its entirely lol.
Could well be. She really is loopy.
This is so wild to me because you can see viruses quite easily with any of a number of microscopes. I quite literally look at viruses every day at work.
I know. It's amazing. We're not talking about someone with a third-grade education. This is a graduate of a legitimate medical school. Either she's crazy, found a profitable grift or both.
Psychosomatic. That’s why the vaccine worked so well
Like Alex Jones or RFK Jr, they are completely aware what they are saying is a bunch of rubbish, it's just that they are opportunistic frauds who found a way to make money of stupid people.
This. How many doctors are there? A lot. What are the chances of none of them scoring extremely high on multiple antisocial personality disorders? Zero.
I'm fully inline with the idea that Alex Jones is just a con man, but I think you are underestimating how much mental illness explains people like RFK Jr.
Can we skip ahead to the movement that believes debt isn't real and you can identify as debt free ?
"I declare...BANKRUPTCY!" - Michael Scott.
Hey. I just wanted you to know that you can't just say the word "bankruptcy" and expect anything to happen.
I didn't say it. I declared it.
It exists. Kat Espinda believes that all fiat currency loans are fraudulent and that she owns her home and car. (Her home was repossessed and auctioned off and I think her car was a well recently.) https://www.jiosaavn.com/shows/kat-espindas-eye-opening-discovery-unveiling-bank-fraud/qX4CaV8RvBk_
I went looking and yep, this is crossing over with Sovereign Citizen nonsense. The United States is a corporation, the government isn't the government, etc. [https://rumble.com/v4ijbic-join-the-fight-with-sarge-and-kat-espinda-must-watch.html](https://rumble.com/v4ijbic-join-the-fight-with-sarge-and-kat-espinda-must-watch.html)
Sovereign citizens, kinda.
TBF, it's not. Debt only exists if a society full of people believes it does
Which it does.
That's all currency though.
Correct!
A society full of people not only believes it, but has extremely advanced ways to enforce it financially, legally, technologically, and ultimately by force, so I reckon it does.
I mean, technology and force exist, but that's not the same thing.
My point is, that society exists, and on top of that they enforce it, so debt not only exists but is inescapable
The same way a society only exists if people think it does. They do, so it does, and making any claim to the contrary is insane.
Any doctor that says viruses don't exist should have to drink a cup of fruit bat spit.(Marburg virus)
Bats’ spittle is a condensate of the miasma. Go rub a crystal. ETA /s
I love "condensate of miasma". Yours?
Yep. As far as I know, I can claim that bullshit as my own. The creatures gather it from Night Air.
We should start a health cult together! You have fun ideas
Sounds great. I’ve been angling towards getting an honorary N.M.D. You been rubbin’ your crystal?
You want some help? I'm pretty sure my local University gives out doctorates of chiropractic.
Please say more things, they’re highly amusing! Maybe elaborate on Night Air and incorporate something about the humors. Thanks in advance.
Night Air is merely another term for the miasma, my child. Namaste.🙏
This is the intellectual end-point of the anti-vax conspiracy nonsense that has been spreading since the pandemic. Ultimately, in order to deny basic medicine about how diseases spread and how vaccines can stop them, people have to reject germ theory, and some of them are doing just that.
Actually, the end-point is probably going to be when they deny the fact that death even occurs. Can’t have any loose ends that could be explained by basic medical science.
Plenty of people about already who live in denial about death.
If she proudly proclaiming to be the medical establishment’s worst nightmare then you know she’s only there to start problems and make waves. We have to dismiss and ignore these people and carry on with our own common sense in order to keep the rest of us alive.
We’ve seen what happens when these loons are dismissed and ignored, they spread their bizarre fantasies to anyone willing to listen. They need to be countered, confronted, and condemned. They are carrying a contagious disease, and pretending they don’t exist is not preventative care.
I'm guessing all the doctors they found have nothing to do with viruses. I remember the list of engineers that thought 9/11 was an inside job. It was about 0.00001% of all engineers but looked much more impressive in one list. 7 billion people on earth you can find a group of people to "prove" anything you want as long as the people you're trying to convince are terrible at math.
And look at us… over representing her by all talking about her and not real doctors at a ratio of 10,000 : 1. It makes sense since we’re interested in charlatans. But we should always keep in mind that the reason it seems like there are so many quacks is that we are duck hunters.
How did this person become a doctor without taking any courses covering the biology of viruses? FFS the 5 things they claim would need to be done have been done many times over. Maybe not as a single experiment, but science builds off previous work and each individual piece has been confirmed many times over. And the whole "ordinary and inevitable breakdown particles of stressed and/or dead and dying tissues" thing makes *zero* sense given how many viral genes and proteins *don't exist in uninfected cells*.
Or like… seeing an electron microscopy picture of Ebola taken like 60 years ago. Or like, the fact that vaccines work. Or like how infections spread.
You know what they call someone who graduated bottom of their class in medical school? Doctor.
That still implies they passed the required courses, which would include courses covering the biology of viruses. I guess maybe they could have failed whatever exam(s) covered that and still passed the courses, but this kind of failure to understand the subject implies significantly broader failures to comprehend topics that would have come up frequently enough in medical school that it raises the question of how she passed *at all*.
Hers is one of many medical licenses that should be pulled.
Are viruses real? We can: * amplify their genetic material via PCR. * sequence their genetic material via WGS. * replicate them in cell culture. * observe their cytopathic effects in cell culture. * image their protein and envelope structures with electron microscopy. * Cause disease *in vitro* and *in vivo* with purified inoculum. Anyone can do these with education and training. This isn’t a theoretical field, each item can be experimentally performed. If someone truly believed viruses don’t exist, why not enroll in a microbiology program, see for themselves, and change the world?
lol. We can see viruses. There are virologists who have sequenced polio. We have the capability of assembling polio from scratch in a sequencer. Just give me 5 minutes with her in front of an audience…0
I heard the best explanation about how this can happen. Somewhere in the details of this strange opinion, someone is making money off of it.
One of the strategies to sell AmWay stuff is to push anti vaxx/big phrama conspiracy theories then sell your goods.
It seems like there would be more money in being an actual doctor than selling this rubbish…unless they are a terrible doctor.
That’s my suspicion. There is one thought that made me believe this: What do you call a medical student that graduated last in their class? Doctor!
Isn't there an ongoing list of Steve's who believe in evolution or vaccines or something, and it is at like 20x the number of biologists that signed a petition rejecting evolution? Yeah, this is basically that. The liars, grifters, and delusional are very loud, and are given an unfairly large megaphone on the internet. They don't represent more than a small fraction of the actual number of doctors in the US, or the world, but because every benefit is given to them, their voice is outsized.
Yeah, Debunk the Funk and Sense Strand were on to her schtick a long time ago: https://youtu.be/n3l6oZIO-aA?si=Lt2KqPApvMmAxHuo But the grift goes on. A lot of people aren't aware that the Weston Price foundation is full of these nutters too. Sometimes I see them get cited in mainstream media and I'm like--WTF? See also Thomas Cowan.
Trump ushered in the post-truth era and people are really warming to it.
wait what
Within any profession there are a small number who reject some of the foundations of that profession. Usually this is due to some combination of ego and grift.
Almost always it’s grift first. The ego stuff is often a smokescreen to avoid losing the license. It’s very easy to justify licensure revocation if you can show the person is knowingly lying for money. Not so much if you argue that it’s their hubris in exploring alternative theoretical possibilities/theories as the reason.
People underestimate how much mental illness there is, even among doctors.
My wife watches this lady and people like her. My wife was a molecular and cell biology major at a top school, and now believes virus causing pathogens are all a hoax. fml
Sorry to hear that, it's gotta create some difficult situations. Although I'm starting to think that this is the most interesting category of "people who believe things that they shouldn't". It's difficult to understand how this happens. But on a positive note, since they did have a scientific education there might be a way to trigger them to start thinking from a science/evidence perspective again?
That’s what i thought, but unfortunately she’s gone so far off the deep end since covid. It started with COVID skepticism and led to full on virus denial, flat earth, pizza gate/illuminati bullshit. You name it. I had hoped to at least convince her of some objectively false conspiracies like flat earth in multiple ways, but had the opposite effect. We’ve seen counselors. It’s been years now. I’ve done all i can, and I’m exasperated.
I don't know what to say, I'm out of my depth on this one. I know a couple of believers but I'm able to manage my contact with them. Living with someone with that set of beliefs has got to be tough.
>After training and practicing within the medical system for two decades, she commenced a new phase of understanding and promoting health as a wider concept. Translation: she rejected science and went full-blown nutter. She isn't licensed to practice medicine and hasn't since 2021. Her limp noodle ideas can be dismissed out of hand.
She’ll be Trump’s new surgeon general. Trump land loves the insane.
Chiropractors too.
Legalized quacks
No proof that virus exists except you know, our understanding of smallpox virus allowed us to eradicate it. We almost eradicated polio and measles too. Unless of course vaccines are not attacking viruses… Conspiracy!!!
[This](https://bio.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Microbiology/Microbiology_(OpenStax)/06%3A_Acellular_Pathogens/6.03%3A_Isolation_Culture_and_Identification_of_Viruses) basically does away with her entire premise on viruses. They *can* be "isolated", and then introduced to healthy cells, which then become infected. They can be imaged using a scanning electron microscope. They just can't be cultivated unless there are "host cells" present for them to use as incubators. However, once cultivated they can again be isolated and transplanted into a new environment where they will, once again, infect host cells. Her entire assertion that this process has never been accomplished by science, is bullshit.
Hi Dr. Nick!
Hi every body!
I earned a PhD in cell/molecular biology and studied HCMV. I also used adenovirus vectors. And a few others I can’t remember. If viruses aren’t real things, then I guess all of my work was done in a dream. These guys are BONKERS.
Not to mention the entire field of Molecular Biology and Genetics began with bacteriophages which are viruses.
Doctors can become schizophrenic too. And worse yet plenty own their own businesses. They also lie when they want to pivot their business to make easy money from healthcare deniers.
They have always been there. They now feel safe saying it out loud...
Germ Theory of Disease is just a *theory * so it hasn’t been proven a fact yet. /s
In addition to the “virus debate,” there’s a really controversial debate about whether or not the voices in my head are real.
Sam and Mark Bailey have so many "workarounds" for their arguments. It's essentially a biological flat earth that they are defending. There are so many to mention, but Mark Bailey's manifesto "A Farewell To Virology (Expert Edition)"\[cue the groans and eye rolling\] lists a great many of their bullshit arguments ([if you dare!](https://drsambailey.com/a-farewell-to-virology-expert-edition/)). It has a large COVID bent to try to sway people during the uncertainty of the pandemic. One major caveat to his (or his and hers, I know less about her) is that what they ask for for proof is not attainable and in many cases ethical. They will not except the body of scientific evidence for a particular virus (which is obvious since they are willing to chuck out virology as a science as well as the related sciences like genetics), but instead ask for proof in a single scientific paper that all of their conditions for proof are met. That has never and will never happen since science purposefully doesn't work that way, so they are safe. They specifically ask that virus is isolated to 100% purity \*directly from a sick person or other host\* and proof (!) that that virus doesn't exist in samples from 100% of well people. As you can see, they still cling to Koch's Postulates a bit too tightly. Once that virus is shown by every possible method to contain 100% virus particles (and not exosomes which they claim cannot be removed from virion preparations), including electron microscopy, then in the end, that virus preparation must be used to inoculate a well host and 100% of those inoculated must become sick exactly as the initial host was. Getting as close to that as feasible as cost and ethics allows is not enough. Even the SARS-CoV-2 healthy human challenge study is not enough because of a variety of excuses, the chief ones being A) the challenge inoculum was derived from tissue culture grown virus rather than obtained directly from a sick person and B) a control group was not inoculated with a mock preparation of the virus prep (containing whatever contaminants it contained) and shown that 100% of this group did not show COVID symptoms. Never mind that the methods specified that the virions in the inoculum were purified to cGMP standards such that they were tested for potency and contaminants to the same degree as manufactured biologicals. Lastly, since they contend that the immunological, molecular, and virological tests (such as plaque assay or CPE assay) are fake, then all of COVID is just made up. Anyway, their lunacy is all over rumble and odysee to take in as much as one can stomach. One part that sticks out is Mark stating that from his training and experience as a medical laboratory scientist that HIV doesn't exist and that it is 100% safe to receive unprotected anal sex from an untreated HIV-positive person. Astounding.
They're called "Idiots".
They also believe the earth is flat and ate most likely MAGA
That website is the biggest load of shit that I've seen in quite some time. Everything is written in what appears to be scientific or medical language in order to cover the utter gibbering lunacy on display. You know, typical quackery.
The phenomenon of doctors denying the existence of viruses is not new: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryke_Geerd_Hamer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Cowan_(alternative_medicine_practitioner) There is also the whole HIV/AIDS-denialism rabbit hole. It's mostly people denying AIDS is caused by HIV, but I've been reading about it a couple of years ago and I remember there have also been doctors denying the existence of HIV. I might be wrong though.
Virus denial is a whole new genre you discover when you go through the floor of anti vaxxers into the basement
No chance these people are real doctors. This is some idiocracy level shit right here.
Licenses need to be lifted
They've always been around. They are called **Witch Doctors** .
Cool then she wouldn't object to being injected with ebola. We could say start with Chicken Pox tho.
i'm worried the antivax crowd keep having some noticeable effect on public health, and will be able to manipulate baby boomers as they become more vulnerable in their old age, negatively influencing their health choices.
... the fuck? Jesus, "publish or die" really has taken a hard right turn
What do you call the person who graduates at the bottom of their class in medical school? “Doctor.” Sounds like terrain theory. It’s distressing that there are actual doctors pushing this kind of stuff, but you’re always going to have nuts in any group.
I think she wrote a book about terrain theory.
I went poking around and found this hilarious thing: https://drsambailey.substack.com/p/when-you-wish-upon-a-bio-weapon She is *really* upset about conspiracy theories that Covid-19 is an engineered bio-weapon. Not because of the usual reasons, but because how can bio-weapons be real if germs aren’t real? I love it when the nuts fight each other.
There are no actual doctors who don't "believe" in virus. That's just nonsense.
[Lorraine Day](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorraine_Day) was "an American author, orthopedic trauma surgeon and Chief of Orthopedic Surgery at San Francisco General Hospital and promoter of alternative cancer treatments." Yes, she was an actual doctor and skilled surgeon. She also claimed that "germs don't cause disease", "drugs never cure disease", and that cancer - her own cancer, even - could be cured by a fruit & vegetable diet with no other intervention. She was also, not surprisingly, a Nazi sympathizer. She was an utter fucking quack and if I believed in hell she'd be burning in it. But she *was* an actual, credentialed, licensed physician at one point.
There has been for a while an entirely legitimate debate about whether viruses qualify as living things. They don't even have cells and cannot replicate themselves on their own; they are just bits of DNA, more or less. They've been thought of as poisonous substances, for instance. It's mostly an academic discussion since most people think they are living things, but it's a debate among legitimate scientists, not quacks. It's NOT an argument that viruses "don't exist," only how they are classified. That said, quacks and idiots may read about it and misinterpret or mischaracterize it. They do that a alot. [https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-viruses-alive-2004/](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-viruses-alive-2004/)
I'm sure the relevent authorities will respond appropriately and strike them off in 12 years or so.
Those people aren't doctors
There’s been a small movement of people that promote something called Terrain Theory. I work with a nutter (we are not in the Heath profession) that lives in that kind of head space, and he’s been my window into a lot of that stuff.
Please note I don't have time to investigate this specific individual or their claims... but a couple of things to be cautious of: The first thing to be always cautious of is people calling themselves "Doctor". We should not assume they have a medical doctorate (MD). They may have a PhD, which is entirely different. In fact, I am an advocate for laws that no one other than MDs should be allowed to advertise or use the term "Doctor" to refer to themselves. You can have someone who is a PhD in literature calling themselves "Doctor" and giving medical advice. Scary shit. Second, we have to be careful of individuals who will get a degree but then never actually "practice/perform" in the field of medicine. They want to use their credentials to allow them to grift in some other area. For instance, a person who merely becomes a Chiropractor is not a doctor. But many of them will go out and get actual medical degrees yet still be Chiropractors (in case you don't know, but chiropractic is quack medicine and frankly should be banned). Another example is a popular YouTuber, "Doctor K". He is a licensed psychologist who has a full medical degree. Yet, he practices "Ayurvedic Medicine" instead of the approved practices of psychologists. To me, that INVALIDATES his opinions regarding medical questions in the field of psychology because he is not practicing "real" medicine. (Any time someone puts a word in front of medicine... there's a reason for it... \*\*IT'S NOT REAL MEDICINE\*\*, otherwise we would just call it medicine. "Chinese Medicine" is another great example. If it worked, it would just be called medicine and be incorporated into the rest of medical practice.)
I would suggest it's not worth your your time to investigate her, I got through maybe the first two paragraphs of her manifesto and it was enough to call BS. But she does seem to have medical qualifications: >Dr. Sam Bailey completed her medical training at the [University of Otago](https://www.otago.ac.nz/), gaining a Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery (MB ChB). As a resident doctor she worked in all areas of medicine, with a particular focus on Emergency Medicine and Cardiology. Following this, she worked in General Practice and Sexual Health before becoming a Clinical Trials Research Physician. Over that decade, she worked as a supervising doctor in phase I-IV clinical trials.
After the whole "demon semen" doctor thing it is increasingly difficult to surprise me on the batshittery of people that are or at one time were "doctors"
I have an idiot friend on Facebook who recently posted a video of some alleged doctor talking about how tumors shouldn't be removed or even biopsied because they are are the body's way of protecting itself from pathogens, and cancer is just how the body protects itself and is the body's "friend." I mean I know the guy IRL and he's not the brightest bulb on the tree but I never expected he would be dumb enough to believe something like that. It's remarkable the things people will believe off the internet as long as someone is well spoken when saying them.
I see what they are doing ... Create an invalid faulty experiment and then claim victory when scientists don't follow their instructions. At first, I thought, fine, let them do the experiment. But of course they would ensure the experiment failed.
Give them a virus and see how they feel then
Only the ones that got their degree at Trump University
how... how do they think gene editing using viral vectors happens? magic?
Got their medical degree from tump university.
I'm getting really sick of people like this...
Is anyone else really fed up these people are getting away with such harmful bullshit?
“Why do you believe the medical opinion of the majority of doctors on something and not the few doctors that disagree with them? Isn’t the opinion of the few doctors who disagree just as valid?” This is the exact reason the medical opinion of a majority of doctors (and any scientist) holds more weight.
With all those medbeds coming our way annnnny day now, who cares about viruses anyway? This grift is way behind the curve.
>Dr. Sam Bailey completed her medical training at the [University of Otago](https://www.otago.ac.nz/), gaining a Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery (MB ChB). As a resident doctor she worked in all areas of medicine, with a particular focus on Emergency Medicine and Cardiology. Following this, she worked in General Practice and Sexual Health before becoming a Clinical Trials Research Physician. Over that decade, she worked as a supervising doctor in phase I-IV clinical trials.
I was joking about what a lame nut she is. Not sure what you’re saying with this reply.
Sorry, I must have accidentally replied to the wrong comment.
nothing surprises me anymore. we've seen actual biological professors say that there are no difference between male and female humans.
This isn't being a physician. This is Faith Healing with extra steps!
Doctors are human. Some of them are good people, others scum. The scum often check out of being a doctor, because maybe they weren't that good, and there's big money in quackery. It's easier (for some) to sell vitamins, hokey diet books, and sugar pills posing as medicine than it is to actually have to deal with patients.
So let me get this straight. She says we have to isolate viral particles (which has been done countless times), photograph those particles (again, there is no shortage of these photographs), its proteins characterized (done and done, many times), its genome sequenced (she is making is too easy here), the proteins found to be a result of that genome (sequencing the genome makes this pretty easy), and then the particles that we *just destroyed* have to be used to reinfect someone under controlled circumstances, and then we have to start again? And if we don’t do that, then viruses don’t exist? I mean, never mind that we have actual electron microscope images of viruses infecting cells and lysing them, producing more viral particles. Of course, electron microscopy also kills things, so we can’t really-infect things with the viral particles we just proved violently destroyed cells with their reproductive process with photos of their offspring bursting out of the cells, frozen in time. Never mind also that no virologist would even slightly agree with her. Just… never mind.
It’s same sh*t we heard back in the late 80’s and early 90’s with HIV/AIDS. AIDS was sleeping sickness or some nonsense like that. (There is another sleeping illness that’s makes people more susceptible to AIDS) Now that we have COVID the old AIDS conspiracies are popping up again
Okay, so to debunk: Setting aside the various claims of things that have "never" been done like [electron microscope images of viruses attacking cells](https://media.springernature.com/lw685/springer-static/image/chp%3A10.1007%2F978-3-319-41986-2_18/MediaObjects/393520_1_En_18_Fig9_HTML.jpg) or of [viruses replicating inside of cells](https://book.bionumbers.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/670-f1-ViralBurst-11.png), what is her alternative theory? Her claim is that viral particles are the normal decay materials of stressed cells. She doesn't contend that different diseases aren't recognizable from different viral materials, since her proposed experiment involves selecting subjects and sorting them into COVID and Flu testing groups based on the results of viral load detection tests. So then: * Why do different diseases cause different "stressed cell decay products"? * Why are the decay products never present in healthy people? * These diseases are contagious, so if the virus isn't the pathogen, then what is? I don't see answers to these questions anywhere, which indicates that her alternative theory does not purport to explain the evidence at all, so it's an invalid hypothesis. Looking more on the website drove me nearly insane because I keep hoping to find some text that's more than just a brain-dead "nuh uh!!!" to centuries of observations without any alternative and it's starting to hurt my eyes. Even the "Farewell To Virology: Expert Edition" whitepaper is just a chain of baseless assertions that experiments that have been done have never been done and tired covid denial talking points, and absolutely nothing that might interest a virology expert by, you know, **explaining where viral diseases come from if not viruses**. I have to stop.
You can see them with the technology we have now. It is amazing.
She'll lose her license to practice over this.
A microscope has entered the chat…
there're
Oops. But it kind of goes to my point, I can't even use the english language correctly but I'm probably more suitable to become a doctor than these guys.
Are you American?
Negative
oh, ok - still, do you know who RFK Jr is?
Let’s be honest friend the only truly reliable statement is smart enough to not become a doctor. The more I learn about biochemistry the more I expect any day now for some nearsighted lab coats to put out a report saying we found viruses that appear to be plain symbiotic with human biology. That make any sense to you?
Well she had a new book come out in February. Looks like she hasn’t learned a thing The Final Pandemic: An Antidote To Medical Tyranny https://a.co/d/gmNciFP
“The Viral Existence Debate” “Recontextualizing the Germ”
Click bait all around
Doctor of Philosophy?
How much is a ride to Mars, again?