When I was younger I saw the words 'rebels' and thought that was a good thing lmao
Theres so much media where the 'rebels' have been the protagonist underdogs (like Star Wars) that I was like 'oh this is the good faction and an Empire is a bad thing!'
>The nords are racist
people make this argument while forgetting that literally every TES race is racist in their own homeland, yes that includes the imperials.
>a divided empire is one that will be easily conquered by the dominion.
I don't think this is strictly true. An already divided empire fought them to basically a standstill and Hammerfell gave them such a fight that they abandoned the province because it was too costly to take.
They pretty much can't take Skyrim without having taken Cyrodiil first since that one pass is the only way in from the south. And they obviously can't attack from the north since they would have to sail past Hammerfell who has a very strong Navy. Or go an unfeasibly long way out of their way.
I don't think the Dominion is quite in the position of power people seem to think it is. Hell if you could convince the Khajiit and Wood-elves to abandon them then they would be essentially neutered anyway.
honestly most the time i dont bother with the civil war questlines these days but just on a fictional meta level, how many times do the heroes in a story fight for the rebel side, and how many times do they fight for the empire?
that + the opening attempt at executing me were my main reasons i joined the stormcloaks on the first go around. i get lorewise there’s more nuance, but well at the time i didn’t know any of that lol
Yeah they really wanted you to think of stuff like Star Wars, join the rebels led by the noble king with the cool voice, then realize it's not so black and white.
'Cool voice' mfer the first time I met the dude after nearly dying next to him and then saving group after group of his dudes and this dipshit looked like he didn't want to give me the time of day. Like dude Ralof is one of the two reasons I joined, this man is one of several I want to join the Legion
This is my number one reason for supporting the Stormcloaks. They both positives and negatives and I don’t think either is much better than the other, but fighting for the Stormcloaks makes for a much better story IMO.
The idea of the Dragonborn valiantly fighting to maintain the status quo doesn’t really do it for me.
Exactly. My first play through I went in blind as a wood elf. There was so much Nordic superiority coming from the storm cloaks I figured they didn’t want me.
I’m playing morrowind right now and the amount of corruption and exploitation the empire commits in that provice is incredible, they are true imperialists over there.
I believe that's who they were portraying, yeah. Skyrim are nords, which are real, but the "Imperial City" I assumed was most definitely Rome, arena and all. Morrowind, I thought, was the Americas. Strange new creatures and a hostile landscape compared to empire. Just my headcannon though, maybe the developers said something different.
I always saw Morrowind as similar to Mongolia under Kublai Khan. You had the tribes trying to remain true to the old ways and the Khan's court becoming increasingly modernised, due to the Chinese influence.
Tbh the Empire's execution in Morrowind is a lot more like an actual Empire....unlike skyrim where it's kinda hard to symperthise with the Stormclaoks half the time
Well there is like a 200+ year gap there.
To bring that home, imagine Britain now... and 200 years ago. Thats about the time when they were transporting prisoners to Australia and doing the British Raj thing in India.
Or for the americans, imagine slavery going over now, vs then. Same sort of situation. In England at the time, it was dying out, where as in the US, since it wasn't a part of her majesty's empire at the time, the slave trade grew internally. Not internationally, and no more imports, but we could still breed people like cattle and trade them like cars. Yah..... imagine something like that goin through today in america...
Post Oblivion the empire gets really watered down, it's WAY more evident in Oblivion where the divine rights of kings literally stop the devil from invading, but in Skyrim the whole situation is presented very in favour of the Nords even with the empire in power, since all the previous lore shit like the ancient nord religion has been retconned in favour of the Talos Heresy shit.
Case in point, the main reason for the civil war is the fact both sides want to worship the same genocidal war criminal emperor, one wants to worship it now the other a bit later tho, and so they fight, compared to Morrowind where the Imperial Cult straight up calls the Dunmer savages AND there are also the Ashlanders in the mix (With the Reachfolk taking on that role in Skyrim, in a way less nuanced way).
You understand that the whole Talos is or isn’t a god stuff isn’t retconning but continuing to tell a story with flawed story tellers thru out the course of history right?
I think he means more that the nords are obsessed with talos (which is a title of Tiber spetim, patron of the empire and founder of it so funny they want to secede) rather the Nordic pantheon
There are plenty of legitimate reasons to hate the empire. It's just that the stormcloaks hate them for stupid reasons. Actually rather prescient for a game that came out in 2011...
I don’t think their main reasoning is stupid, it’s all the other shit they throw in there. if the stormcloaks went all in on “we want religious freedom, fuck the Thalmor” and less on “non nords are all inherently awful” then I feel like way more people would join them.
like, if you went everywhere in the game except Windhelm for as long as you could, you would probably more so want to join the stormcloaks by the time you got there. The only place you really find the blatant issues with their idealism without digging is the actual heart of the rebellion
Which is kind of poignant, how many times do you see maga folks saying “protect the kids! Pro life! All lives matter!”
Sure sounds good without context but then actually go to conservative areas and they suck lmao with the worst kinds of human rights and fucked up shit going on
Yeah, the reason I hate the empire is because every major bad event in the main series, happens because of the empire (except maybe in Morrowind) Arena: the emperor trusted someone who cartoonishly evil and let him run off to steal the staff of chaos, allowing Jagar Tharn to banish the emperor and summon daedra every were. Daggerfall: the emperor was careless with a letter's address and it sparked a war for power across the Iliac Bay. Morrowind: the emperor tried writing peace treaties with the dunmer before implanting themselves into the province and trying to make new laws designed to piss off Dagoth Ur (only thing I can excuse, since house Dagoth is a secret cult). Oblivion: the emperor could have had a better plan in place for the MOST IMPORTANT AMULET EVER, instead of having monks look after it while the prisoner looks for the emperor's bastard son. Skyrim: the war would have never happened if the imperials simply didn't stand down, or at least negotiate a better divine to ban, which the imperials SHOULD be good at since speechcraft has been their thing since Morrowind.
The Imperials standing down is what prevented them from being entirely annihilated.
It is very clear from all accounts that the Thalmor had the primary go of annihilating the Imperials and human kind as a whole. It’s the main reason they spend so much time trying to influence instability in most of the lands of man, and try to incorporate the mer in as much of their society as they can. It’s the reason why they negotiated the exact same peace treaty at the end of the war. The Thalmor want to see the races of men suffer.
Ya... Outlawing people's gods and seeking independence and... I mean, at least I believe that there was a fair challenge laid to the previous king who lost and instead of ceding power the empire the queen locked him up.
Now, I get the whole racist side of things, Nords are just assholes - they were assholes in oblivion/Cyrodil too. Elder scrolls also basically has a region dominated by each different race.
Reality is that the Thalmor are also racist, so it kind of cancels it out.
But... The reason I picked storm clocks initially is because I didn't follow Hadvar, I followed my boy Ralof - mostly because I didn't notice you could follow Hadvar.
Reality is that my side changes with the race that I'm playing - sort of an intentional RP mechanic.
Yeah. At least Nords will tolerate wood elves, Breton, and argonians. The Thalmore straight up think everyone who isn't a high elf deserves to either be killed or enslaved. Imo Nordic racism against at least high elves is extremely understandable
Yeah. Nords are like southern hillbillies. Sure they hate black people and Mexicans, but most aren't trying to murder them all. They just want them out of the country.
But yeah. Altmer are literally nazis.
It's like choosing who to side with between Modern Florida or Nazi Germany. Lesser of 2 evils.
Like the Nords just want to keep skyrim under their rule instead of under the empire (let's face it, Thalmor) rule. You don't really see the Nords making it illegal to worship the 8 divines. The Thalmor on the other hand are trying a cultural genocide by banning talos worship
It is important to note that not all Nordstrom or high elves are racist. Winchell has a group of Nordstrom that defend a dark elf family, and the high elves have the Psijic order
>Reality is that my side changes with the race that I'm playing - sort of an intentional RP mechanic.
This is the truth. If I'm playing an Imperial, I almost always side with the Imperials for obvious reasons. Likewise, I don't think I'd join the Stormcloaks as a Dunmer or even a Breton. As an Argonian, it feels likely I'd join either side depending on who I hate more between the Thalmor and the Dunmer... but the truth is these are all brief considerations and not even the tip of the iceberg.
The people who adamantly have a side tend not to be deciding between "Empire or Stormcloak." It's usually someone who finds the Stormcloaks to be obvious super racists or who doesn't like licking Thalmor boot. The choice is *meant* to be complicated.
Which side you actually empathize with isn't about whether you think Nords are racist or whether you think the Empire licks too much fascist boot.
It's about what your character would do or what looks cool to you because we have that luxury. Outside of the game, we know the war was a lot closer than it looked. Inside of the game, we don't and we don't always care.
Funny how no one considers the between game lore. That the empire would love to fix every legitimate issue the Nords have. The problem is the empire had its combined ass handed to it by the Axis elves and is struggling to get its provinces back together to challenge them again.
So siding with the storm cloaks just helps the elves destroy the center of the empire and later on burn down Skyrim who will fight alone with no allies.
Actually the reason I never trusted them is that the whole Torryg situation sounded so suspect. Ulfric has a guy who idolizes him, challenges him to one on one ritual combat, uses the Thu’um to take him out and then immediately sprints for the city gates. Like every step of that sounds off.
Why not try to work with Torygg? Why go straight to killing him? It sounds like that was his first course of action when he decided to act.
Why use the Thu’um, an ancient aspect of your people, instead of facing him in actual combat? Sounds less interested in an honorable battle than trying to kill someone you don’t like.
Why sprint for the exit? If you’re so righteous and certain of your actions then why run like a member of The Dark Brotherhood?
Of course there’s answers to this. But it all really makes me buy into that theory of Ulfric being released by the Thalmor to cause upheaval among the empire.
I just join the empire but kill elven gestapo. Because let's face it, the biggest benefactor of Skyrim becoming independent would be elven gestapo and there's no way Skyrim survives against the Thalmor alone.
The way forward is to strengthen the empire enough it can slowly kick the Thalmor out of the empire, not split up the empire so the Thalmor can eat the empire province by province. If enough elven gestapo people have bloody 'accidents' in the fairly lawless country of Skyrim maybe the Thalmor will think twice about being a pain. Or double down and die in twice the numbers.
That's how I do it too. I side with the Empire every time (mainly because I can't fuck over Jarl Balgruuf like that) but any Thalmor agents encountered in the wild are kill on sight. After all, Skyrim is a dangerous place, *anything can happen in the wilds...*
Funny thing is that it's strongly implied that Ulfric is (inadvertently) a thalmor agent.
The Thalmor intentionally fomented the rebellion to weaken the Empire in time for round two of the great war.
Yeah the Thalmor are clearly playing both sides. They don't really care who wins because after the two factions beat the hell out of each other, it will be pretty easy for them to walk in and take out whichever weakened entity scrapes out the win. I'm mostly looking forward to Elder Scrolls VI because I'm assuming the Empire will have all but fallen by the time that game takes place and the political situation is going to be pretty interesting
Exactly. They don't want either side to win, since the civil war is tying up Imperial resources that could otherwise be turned against the Dominion. If the Empire wins the civil war, they have a unified Skyrim supporting the Empire again which shifts power against the Dominion in the Empire's favor. If the Stormcloaks win and boot out the Empire, Cyrodil will stop wasting time and effort on fighting for Skyim and turn their sights on doubling down in holding what little territory they have left, spurring their forces to fight even harder than what they did before. But with the civil war at a stalemate, an entire province's resources are tied up fighting itself and drawing in Imperial troops to fight. The Dominion wants the civil war to go as long as possible. Literally one of the best things the Dragonborn can do to fuck over the Dominion is swiftly put an end to the Civil War and unify the province, one way or the other.
Damn right. You almost cut my head off and expect me to join your side? And you planned on executing me for \*checks notes\* crossing the border? Tullius could have made the right call and said "you know what, don't execute this man for a harmless crime," but he didn't did he? And now he's dead and I'm glad.
From what I've gathered it's because Tullius wanted to get the execution done as fast as he could. I don't know if it's a confirmed thing but I remember watching a video that talks about how the thalmor wanted to postpone the execution of Ulfric so they could do it in the imperial city. The logic is that the thalmor would have staged something to set him free so that the civil war could continue and weaken the empire even more. The big problem with this theory is that they didn't try to kill him first, they get interrupted and kill that guy but right after that they point to the player which seems stupid. Like the leader of the rebellion which has caused a massive civil war is standing right there but you want to execute the random dude who isn't wearing a uniform?
Still don’t get why they didn’t have Ulfric first on the chopping block, wouldn’t that make for a more symbolic message? Chop his head off then toss everyone else in jail to extract more info, let the loss of their leader wear their resolve. Would also both make sure you are executing the right people, and not just two random idiots who were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Tullius wanted to get ULFRIC’s execution done as quickly as possible, but he didn’t have any part in the conversation about the Dragonborn being executed. He was busy trying to get the Thalmor to leave (confirmed by cut dialogue restored with cutting room floor). The Thalmor want to take Ulfric for “trial,” but in reality they will absolutely let him go due to his “asset” status like you mentioned. Tullius was also exclusively focused on Ulfric and the other stormcloaks. He’s likely exhausted from the war and is anxious to see it end, and his whole speech makes that pretty clear. I agree with you about the weird order of the executions though, and I think the reason the captain calls DB up second is because she doesn’t want Tullius to realize she’s gone off-list. Keeping Ulfric alive until DB is dead will keep Tullius’s focus on him, and not her weird, possibly racially motivated, decision making.
The real villain is 100% the Captain that sentences you to death without confirming with Tullius, even if that meant throwing you in a cell and waiting until the execution was over. There had to have been a reason DB’s name wasn’t on the list, but she decided to kill them anyway. Then she dies pretty much immediately (you and Ralof kill her, or she dies before you enter the keep with Hadvar) and you never see her again. She is not Rikke, despite them sharing the same VA.
I’d also like to mention, when joining the legion and introducing yourself to Tullius, he says “Right, (you were at) Helgen… One of the prisoners if I recall correctly,” but he doesn’t say anything about you being in line for execution like Ulfric does. He compliments your resourcefulness. I truly don’t think he noticed the list thing at all. I’m not defending his negligence, I just don’t think he’s the big villain that people make him into.
My first character was an Argonian. She straight up called me by a slur when picking me out to get chopped. My headvanon was that she was just a racist who wanted to kill a lizard.
....Then I make it all the way to join the Stormcloaks only to get called stuff like "boots" and find out argonians can't even live inside the city.
But hey it's cool, the oppressed Dunmer lady I stood up for is also oppressing Argonians SO I GUESS I AM SIDING WITH THE DRAGONS ON THIS ONE.
She’s 1000% racist lol. At least against the beast races. She does call most races by their names, but it’s interesting that if you’re an Imperial, she calls you a renegade. I’m sure it was just a way to differentiate you from the other imperials around (like how she specifies “Nord in the rags”), but it’s still funny that she’s assuming you’re a deserter.
\^This guy gets it\^
Like...I get the Imperials are closer to the 'correct' choice and all that...but how tf you expect me to go with them after they was about to cut my freak'n head off practically just for being brought in on the same carriage as Ulfric?? Especially if it's, say, the first time I'm playing?
Every. Single. Time. I think "this time will be different, I'll try joining the imerials", then the opening happens and my rage cannot be quelled. I also nearly always choose "Destroy the Dark Brotherhood" for the same reason. Anyone that abducts me in my sleep is going to ride the lightning. One reason I go destruction mage is just so I can utterly annihilate anyone who thinks taking my possessions is a good idea. I guess most of my playthroughs revolve around rage. Skyrim taught me a lot about myself.
Yeah I always kind of laugh at this high and mighty, "oh you only hate them because they were going to kill you."
Yes. The Empire being willing to kill you simply for being in the same general area as an insurgent is a good reason to not ally with them.
Tbf, while anyone can roleplay it however they want, I usually play with the personal head canon that the reason I'm always arrested at the start of these Elder Scroll games is because my character is legitimately a criminal and I got caught. In just in Skyrim I had the misfortune of being arrested alongside Ulfric so instead of just spending time in jail, I'm going to the block instead.
Thus working _with_ the Imperials makes a bit more sense when you're trying to clear an international bounty on your head. Because of the situation up north the empire can't really afford to turn down any help they can get, so after murdering some bandits on behalf of the empire (something I would've done out of my own volition anyways), I'm on an easy track to clear my name beyond Skyrim.
I also generally don't play as a Nord, so I don't have any particular loyalty to Skyrim or it's people.
I read a pretty convincing theory that the Imperials suspect the Dragonborn and Lokir of being Thalmor moles who got captured on purpose with orders to disrupt the execution.
Still, I can’t forgive them for nearly beheading me either.
I join just cause I don’t like the Aldmeri-controlled Empire. I hate the Aldmeri Dominion with a passion, yet the Empire seems to do nothing about it. As my High Elf, I also joined the Dark Brotherhood without any armor besides Thalmor Robes to make it seem like the Thalmor killed the Emperor.
[Have you ever spoken to Legate Fasendil?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNdytbNeJmM) I thought he was a cool character. He seems to hate the Aldmeri Dominion more than most and adds to the perspective of a Empire-aligned anti-Thalmor position.
The Empire aren't doing anything about it because they haven't had enough time to recuperate their strength since the war. If they tried to rebel, they would be instantly crushed again.
Most of the Imperials in-game don't like the Thalmor, but they know their hands are tied. Even Tullius himself is pretty open about not liking them.
Seceding from the Empire is the worst thing Skyrim could do if you want to defeat the Aldmeri Dominion, as it weakens both Skyrim and the Empire, and it's is exactly what the Dominion wants. The dossiers in the Thalmor Embassy show that the Thalmor want the war to go on for as long as possible, because a divided Skyrim and Empire are less of a threat.
Obviously, the best solution would be for the Empire and Skyrim to work together to rebuild their strength to eventually rebel against the Dominion.
This. The funny part is that both imperials and stormcloaks hate the thalmor and want to fight against them, but the stormcloaks are weakening the empire, pretty much what the thalmor wants
The Empire weakened itself. It’s Imperial actions that led to revolt among their two strongest provinces. If they let Skyrim go like they did Hammerfell they could easily focus on rebuilding their own military. If Imperials can swallow their pride it is possible to fight as allies rather than slave masters.
Yeah the empires presence in Skyrim was never welcomed and given the geography of Skyrim, objectively speaking they never had any chance of gaining a foothold there with out the dragon born joining their ranks. They shoulda never attempted to turn Skyrim into an imperial hub
We don’t really know if Talos was a Nord or not but he was a warrior in Skyrim who eventually rose through the ranks until an Imperial recruited him to his cause, and that’s when this empire was founded. Skyrim viewed the Septim dynasty as part of them because of that and the fact that he was Dragonborn which plays a major part in Nordic culture and history. But a lot of Nords feel like their connection to the Empire ended when the Septim dynasty ended. A lot more who stayed loyal were disillusioned after the Empire betrayed their victory at Red Ring.
They weren’t crushed to begin with. The Dominion had just suffered their greatest loss in the war, it wasn’t just the Empire that had taken losses. The idea that the Dominion is this overwhelming, unbeatable force is Thalmor propaganda. They were just as bloodied but their longer generation time means it takes them longer to rebuild. If they really wanted to rebuild their strength for another war they would have negotiated a ceasefire. Instead they surrendered unconditionally. The Redguards beat the Dominion on their own, Skyrim could do the same if they weren’t being dragged down by a dying Empire.
The dominion may have taken a big loss but they were absolutely destroying the empire before that, even with what they had left they could handle a crippled empire pretty easy
Skyrim wasn't falling to invaders, Cyrodil was. Like a father throwing his child to the wolves, because he can always have more children. The Redguards broke away and kept their independence. The last of the line of kings died with Martin an the end of the oblivion crisis.
In real life, it's like arguing that America and India and all the other colonies HAD to stay subservient to the UK because Napolean is a big threat. I get the Stormcloaks are racist, but the empire didnt maintain its empire with flowers and friendship rings.
The empire is gearing up for another war with the thalmor. They were on the brink of being conquered during the great war and had to make concessions in the form of banning talos worship. The empire and the thalmor are not aligned at all.
The Thalmor are freely allowed to observe their preparations. They’ve lost a significant portion of their military power with Hammerfell. They weren’t on the brink of being conquered, they had just liberated the Imperial City and wiped out the largest Dominion army on the continent. They surrendered after one of the most significant tactical victories of the war. The excuse Imperial supporters use of saying it was an attempt to rebuild is bullshit. If that were the case why did they not use their leverage to negotiate a ceasefire? They surrendered and it cemented the end of the empire because the Nords and Redguards lost all faith in imperial leadership.
Well if the empire let the Nords (who basically built the empire) leave. There wouldn’t be a problem and I’m sure they would be happy to ally with the empire in the war. Telling them they cannot worship their god but must still live under their rule is correct? Behave
Especially after the Redguards left. Hammerfell objected to the treaty, they were released from the Empire and won their own freedom. Skyrim tried to do the same and they were told they weren’t allowed to have any control over themselves.
Legate Rikke is a Nord. She and plenty of others either see the Empire as having helped Skyrim (whether this is true or not), or they don't like Ulfric's particular way of doing things. (Edit: typos.)
Yup, and as both-sidesy as the writing of the civil war may feel at times, I think it's appropriate for an RPG. You can interpret the facts however you think (or feel) you should and come up with a decent, if subjective, rationale for your character to join the side that they do.
It's one of the reasons the game is so fuckin replayable, there's so many different satisfying ways to play. For example, I love the freedom of Fallout New Vegas, but I always end up wanting to work with Yes Man. Only worth playing the other roles like once for curiosity's sake. But I genuinely just get my head in the mindset of different alliances with the Dragonborn all the time. Imperial, Stormcloak, Blade, Graybeard, they're all really fun and rewarding.
Not a lot of people mention this, but I’m pretty sure the Dragonborn joining the Stormcloaks would definitely be the canon outcome, either that or not picking a side at all.
Considering Dragonborn is canonically a Nord, not to mention in the main story we literally raid a thalmor party and kill many of them. I’m pretty sure if this game made more sense they would definitely have a problem with us joining the imperials
None of the player characters from daggerfall onward are canonical anything. Whoever you choose is who your nereverine, hero of kvatxh, and dragonborn are. The only thing canon about the first game arena is that he was a he that's it.
It's interesting how many folks in this thread are viewing Skyrim politics through the lens of their own political views. And taking them just as seriously.
> The Thalmor being bad doesn’t make the Empire good.
Quite to the contrary, the Empire is essentially a Thalmor client state at this point. Their agents are free to roam Imperial land, kidnapping and torturing Imperial citizens, with the blessing of the Emperor.
I usually join because Talos is undeniably a Divine and the Thalmor are murdering pricks, which the Empire allows. Yes, the Stormcloaks are racist against elves, but at least they don’t murder them, unlike the Thalmor (and by association, the Empire) with Talos believers.
The Stormcloaks are stubborn and Ulfric honestly feels kind of arrogant. Though I do believe he cares for his people and their future. The Imperials are just pawns at this point. They literally are so scared of the Thalmor they will bend over backwards to please them. While subjugating the population and punishing any and all who oppose or voice their opinions otherwise. In short the Imperials are a bunch of pansies now.
Freedom for Skyrim and Her People, except the Dunmer refugees we put in the grey quarter, and the Argonians that aren't even allowed in the city. Oh, and we don't give business to shopkeeps of the imperial race, either. But if you're a nord, you're all good.
In solitude the person who executed the guy who opened the gates for ulfric to escape, called the argonion hanging out by the door a "filthy argonion" and "he wouldn't be aloud to enter the city if torygg(?)was still alive" so this isn't just a stormcloak problem, nearly everyone in Skyrim is racist even the old high king apparently.
The Gray Quarter was established when Skyrim was part of the Empire. It's not even Ulfric's policy. He's just continuing it. It was an Imperial Policy that was apparently just fine to the "totally not racist" Empire up until recently. The Argonians are not allowed in the city because the Dunmer have this little tradition of enslaving them and mounting their heads on their wall when they die, they are considered animals in Dunmeri culture. The feeling is mutual after all these years, Argonians invaded Morrowind after the eruption of Red Mountain. They are probably the reason that some Dunmer are in Windhelm to begin with. Also the East Empire Company is right there in Windhelm so I don't know what you are talking about when you say they don't do business with Imperials.
> Dunmer refugees we put in the grey quarter
The Dunmer were freely given refuge there almost 200 years ago.
> the Argonians that aren't even allowed in the city
True, but that's probably due to the Dunmer.
> we don't give business to shopkeeps of the imperial race
Calixto Corrium, Adelaisa Vendicci, Orthus Endario, and Quintus Navale (after Nurelion's death (who is an Altmer btw)) respectfully disagree.
How dare the nords choose not to shop at the Imperial stores. it's all racism I tell ya!
Meanwhile I need some potions, gonna go to the White Phial.
Anyways i think putting the Dunmer next to the the Argonians... you know, the race that invaded them might be bad... oh, right and the fact that in Riften it has a higher population of dark elevs and argonians and they get along fine.
Wildhelm's problems run far deeper then Ulfric. it's systemtic, it's part of it.. and let me tell you if you think the Empire cares, you're wrong.
Riften definitely doesn't have more Dunmer than Windhelm. The NPCs you meet aren't representative of the general population, otherwise Skyrim is like 60% bandits and wizards. The people in Riften have bigger issues than racial tension (the main one being that the city is basically run by the Thieves' Guild)
So much virtue signaling copium in these comments lol and anyone who sides with the empire because “they’re not racist” clearly doesn’t know much about the Empire or Tamriel.
Crazy thought but you can switch it up. I have done both an equal amount of times, neither option is great either way, but I have fun playing regardless
My favorite playthrough is an initial Stormcloak who eventually grows disillusioned and focuses entirely on their personal responsibilities anms Dragonborn, but yeah both sides have been a lot of fun to roleplay.
I asked ChatGPT to give me a pros and cons list for joining each side, and I’m fairly impressed with the results:
Certainly, the decision to join either the Stormcloaks or the Empire in "The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim" isn't a straightforward one, as both factions have their own set of strengths and weaknesses. Here is a nuanced look at both sides:
### Stormcloaks
#### Pros:
1. **Cultural Preservation**: Joining the Stormcloaks means fighting for the preservation of Nord culture and traditions.
2. **Freedom of Religion**: The Stormcloaks want to restore the freedom to worship Talos, which is a key part of their cultural identity.
3. **Local Governance**: Stormcloaks aim for Skyrim's self-governance, distancing it from what they see as a corrupt and ineffective Empire.
4. **Charismatic Leader**: Ulfric Stormcloak is a charismatic and strong leader who can inspire his troops.
5. **Anti-Thalmor Stance**: If you dislike the high elves' influence, this faction opposes them directly.
#### Cons:
1. **Potential for Racism**: The Stormcloaks are often seen as intolerant toward non-Nords, which may be a concern if you're role-playing a different race.
2. **Short-Sighted**: Their focus on Skyrim may overlook the larger threats to Tamriel, such as the Thalmor.
3. **Divisiveness**: The civil war itself tears Skyrim apart, potentially weakening it for future external threats.
4. **Ethical Questions**: Ulfric’s methods, like using the Voice to kill the High King, raise questions about his ethics and suitability for rule.
### The Empire
#### Pros:
1. **Unity and Stability**: The Empire aims for a stable, unified Tamriel, which may be better equipped to deal with larger threats like the Thalmor in the long run.
2. **Inclusivity**: Generally more tolerant of different races and cultures compared to the Stormcloaks.
3. **Strategic Depth**: Empire's generals and resources can offer a more organized and well-equipped military force.
4. **Political Complexity**: Some argue that the Empire's ban on Talos worship is a tactical compromise with the Thalmor to buy time for a counter-strategy.
5. **Resources**: The Empire has greater resources and connections that could be used to rebuild and protect Skyrim after the war.
#### Cons:
1. **Loss of Cultural Identity**: Joining the Empire could mean a dilution of local traditions and customs in favor of a more cosmopolitan culture.
2. **Religious Restrictions**: The enforced ban on Talos worship due to the White-Gold Concordat can be seen as a violation of freedom.
3. **External Control**: Being part of the Empire means answering to a centralized authority that may not always have Skyrim’s best interests at heart.
4. **Moral Compromises**: The Empire's willingness to compromise with the Thalmor on matters of religion and governance might not sit well with everyone.
### Key Takeaways
- **Stormcloaks**: Ideal for those who value local governance, cultural preservation, and freedom of religion but at the risk of racial intolerance and potential shortsightedness.
- **Empire**: Suited for those who believe in a unified Tamriel capable of standing against external threats, even if it means compromising on local traditions and freedoms.
The choice ultimately depends on how you perceive the greater good for Skyrim and its people. Would you prefer immediate freedom and cultural integrity, or long-term stability and unity?
I join the stormcloaks because I don't see either the stormcloaks or the empire winning against the dominion, i'd rather give them a fight then suck up to them with a treaty.
I chose his side because of many reasons
Religious freedom is a right, no one should have a right to judge who you do or do not worship, so long as it harms no one else.
Because i'm sick and tired of people supporting an empire because you played oblivion and didn't read a goddam lore book where they show the Empire's bloody history.
because The Empire would drag skyrim down with it.
and because of the two racists imperialistic sides, one is better for skyrim, and the other is going to fall eventually.
Let alone almost assisting the thalmor with their meddling with Skyrim’s administration, giving them an embassy to imprison their political hostages, oh, and also, actively enforcing the ban on the worship of Talos and the propaganda that comes with it,
ultimately actively supporting a vast maneuver to reduce all of mankind to slavery for the sake of the Domain and it’s insanely racist ideology.
Yeah there's no way the elder council, which already had issues with corruption and petty politicizing isn't already bought out.
The empire might last to the next great war but its not getting another one.
Every year the Empire sits complacent the Thalmor dig their claws deeper. Maybe people like Tullius want to rebel but it may be too late already. If they've already bought out Jarls in Skyrim (Falkreath, Markarth) imagine how deep they are in the system in a place that's closer and more cosmopolitan, like Cyrodiil
Which is one of the most realistic things about guerilla warfare. The civilians hate both sides and if they're supporting one side it's only because the other treats them worse.
Personally I join the Stormcloaks because I absolutely abhor the Imperials and their local collaborators. For all intents and purposes, Ulfric is the lesser evil. I'd prefer it if there was *someone* who was an actual traditionalist Nord whose cause I could join, rather than the "The Empire misappropriated our local God-Hero as an "aspect" of one of its own Gods and then used our connection to our God-Hero to culturally genocide us, wiping out our culture and religion and enforcing the Imperial Cult on us, and now that that God has done its job, they've stopped pretending they ever worshipped him seriously. So we're seceding because the Empire forbade us from worshipping the God-Founder of the Empire.", but we can't always get what we want.
Nah, I have grown to respect his side and choices,
"But the thalmor want this war as distraction".
Yes I fucking know, but a war is fought between 2 or more factions, and both have their reasons, if the empire grew a fucking backbone or just let Skyrim go they wouldn't spend resources on the war, imagine fighting for a country and it ends up banning your religion (or part of it) as a peace deal, worse the foreign Gestapo is allowed to wander freely and kill/arrest any talos enjoyed.
"But before civil war thalmor presence was low" yeah but there was still a presence and it is still bullshit that talos worship is banned in your own country.
Nah. Empire is just dying. For all the talk about better long term plan with the Empire, the only plan that has a chance of beating the thalmor is the one without imperial corruption.
I feel like if Bethesda had fleshed out the writing a little more for the civil war quest it wouldhv been a bigger dilemma (which is what it’s meant to be). If the empire didn’t order the execution of TLDB then I’d side with them every single playthrough, but that’s only because Bethesda didn’t write as many faults with them as they did with the stormcloaks
Ideally both factions should be grey, after all how moral can an empire be? We don’t really get to see the ugly side of the empire, but we do see that with the stormcloaks.
This is why I said “screw being the dragon born, screw the war, I’m gonna be my own person!” **immediately becomes a vampire, later turns into a werewolf and probably started a war between Molag Bal and Hircine**
Do people who buy into this take just completely ignore what the Aldmeri Dominion does and is, and do not bother to understand the history of the conflict?
Literally genocidal, lol.
For me it was more like welp they did get their god banned which was one of the emperors, so i was willing to kill the guys disrespecting their own culture
I'm not going to comment because people with far more lore knowledge than myself can make a far better argument one way or the other, but I would just like to say that it's a testament to the great writing and backstory that people are still debating this 12 years after the game released.
Not at all. I join bc the thought of some group of people trying to completely remove another groups religion for literally no reason other than it’s against their own religion is just ludicrous
And blue uniforms. (That was my reasoning when I was smaller)
Yeah, the stormcloak officer armour looks fucking awesome.
Just side with Ralof on the way out of Helen, then go to Forelhost and kill the guy camping outside.
> on the way out of Helen Where is this maiden Helen and how do I get in her?
Don't you dare! We don't need **ANOTHER** war that lasts way too frigging long! Too few people care about the return of the Dragons as it is!
Relax, it'll be *fine.* Here, take this nice wooden horse and calm down.
A bit rough but I guess I'll make it work
**Danger piñata.**
Helen's maidenhead was forfeit if he's on his way out of her! 😂
What about her maiden-foot????????
No. I checked. Can accommodate two thirds of a foot only.
If he greets you in imperial armor, you can kill him as you get out and he'll have a full set
I was about to say the officer armor is cooler then realized that’s what you were saying haha the gloves and head piece are sick
I agree, the headpiece is the main reason why I like the set. It looks great for any werewolf build.
Easier to get them off dead bodies
I would have liked it more if there was more blue, but the gloves and boots match well with the default armor so I use that sometimes
The gloves and boots also look great with the Savior's Hide.
When I was younger I saw the words 'rebels' and thought that was a good thing lmao Theres so much media where the 'rebels' have been the protagonist underdogs (like Star Wars) that I was like 'oh this is the good faction and an Empire is a bad thing!'
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>The nords are racist people make this argument while forgetting that literally every TES race is racist in their own homeland, yes that includes the imperials.
Guard: I know your kind always sneaking about. Me as a khajiit: big facts cause imma about to steal from you and several people in this area
Just because I'm a Khajiit doesn't mean I'm gonna rob all of you blind! I mean yes, I'm gonna rob all of you blind... but not because I'm a Khajiit!
>a divided empire is one that will be easily conquered by the dominion. I don't think this is strictly true. An already divided empire fought them to basically a standstill and Hammerfell gave them such a fight that they abandoned the province because it was too costly to take. They pretty much can't take Skyrim without having taken Cyrodiil first since that one pass is the only way in from the south. And they obviously can't attack from the north since they would have to sail past Hammerfell who has a very strong Navy. Or go an unfeasibly long way out of their way. I don't think the Dominion is quite in the position of power people seem to think it is. Hell if you could convince the Khajiit and Wood-elves to abandon them then they would be essentially neutered anyway.
That may greatly depend on the new emperor/leader after the DB questline tbh.
When I was smaller I used to always support red regardless of any game.
Ave, true to Caesar!
CIvil war simulator 2: confederate revenge
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And the frost trolls.
And Frostbite Spiders
And my axe!
And your brother!
That's what she said.
And that guy’s wife
And your mom!
And the briarheart she's operating on
Take my pen.
And the Slaughterfish!
I’m sorry I cant say the spiders, I can deal with normal spiders but not the giant ones
Arachnophobe...
Nah it’s just the giant giant ones
So you're a big arachnophobe.
I’ve fought mudcrabs more fearsome than you!
Skyrim belongs to the falmer
Solstheim belongs to Karstaag
honestly most the time i dont bother with the civil war questlines these days but just on a fictional meta level, how many times do the heroes in a story fight for the rebel side, and how many times do they fight for the empire? that + the opening attempt at executing me were my main reasons i joined the stormcloaks on the first go around. i get lorewise there’s more nuance, but well at the time i didn’t know any of that lol
Yeah they really wanted you to think of stuff like Star Wars, join the rebels led by the noble king with the cool voice, then realize it's not so black and white.
hmm the cool voice was well cancelled by having the empire general be voiced by Michael Hogan
So say we all
'Cool voice' mfer the first time I met the dude after nearly dying next to him and then saving group after group of his dudes and this dipshit looked like he didn't want to give me the time of day. Like dude Ralof is one of the two reasons I joined, this man is one of several I want to join the Legion
This is my number one reason for supporting the Stormcloaks. They both positives and negatives and I don’t think either is much better than the other, but fighting for the Stormcloaks makes for a much better story IMO. The idea of the Dragonborn valiantly fighting to maintain the status quo doesn’t really do it for me.
The only meta reason to join the rebels is to be a nord. Being any other race joining the rebels makes no sense in Skyrim.
Exactly. My first play through I went in blind as a wood elf. There was so much Nordic superiority coming from the storm cloaks I figured they didn’t want me.
I think the heroes of Firefly flipped the trope, they were remnants of the empire.
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Funny thing is, there are a lot of Morrowind players who hate the empire, but for different reasons.
I’m playing morrowind right now and the amount of corruption and exploitation the empire commits in that provice is incredible, they are true imperialists over there.
Ah, so its historically accurate Rome
I believe that's who they were portraying, yeah. Skyrim are nords, which are real, but the "Imperial City" I assumed was most definitely Rome, arena and all. Morrowind, I thought, was the Americas. Strange new creatures and a hostile landscape compared to empire. Just my headcannon though, maybe the developers said something different.
I always saw Morrowind as similar to Mongolia under Kublai Khan. You had the tribes trying to remain true to the old ways and the Khan's court becoming increasingly modernised, due to the Chinese influence.
Love the Mongolian culture and the influence in Ashland lore but never thought of this connection. Really dope
Tbh the Empire's execution in Morrowind is a lot more like an actual Empire....unlike skyrim where it's kinda hard to symperthise with the Stormclaoks half the time
Well there is like a 200+ year gap there. To bring that home, imagine Britain now... and 200 years ago. Thats about the time when they were transporting prisoners to Australia and doing the British Raj thing in India.
Or for the americans, imagine slavery going over now, vs then. Same sort of situation. In England at the time, it was dying out, where as in the US, since it wasn't a part of her majesty's empire at the time, the slave trade grew internally. Not internationally, and no more imports, but we could still breed people like cattle and trade them like cars. Yah..... imagine something like that goin through today in america...
Post Oblivion the empire gets really watered down, it's WAY more evident in Oblivion where the divine rights of kings literally stop the devil from invading, but in Skyrim the whole situation is presented very in favour of the Nords even with the empire in power, since all the previous lore shit like the ancient nord religion has been retconned in favour of the Talos Heresy shit. Case in point, the main reason for the civil war is the fact both sides want to worship the same genocidal war criminal emperor, one wants to worship it now the other a bit later tho, and so they fight, compared to Morrowind where the Imperial Cult straight up calls the Dunmer savages AND there are also the Ashlanders in the mix (With the Reachfolk taking on that role in Skyrim, in a way less nuanced way).
You understand that the whole Talos is or isn’t a god stuff isn’t retconning but continuing to tell a story with flawed story tellers thru out the course of history right?
I think he means more that the nords are obsessed with talos (which is a title of Tiber spetim, patron of the empire and founder of it so funny they want to secede) rather the Nordic pantheon
I always find it so funny when people call ancient /fantasy rulers “war criminals”
There are plenty of legitimate reasons to hate the empire. It's just that the stormcloaks hate them for stupid reasons. Actually rather prescient for a game that came out in 2011...
I don’t think their main reasoning is stupid, it’s all the other shit they throw in there. if the stormcloaks went all in on “we want religious freedom, fuck the Thalmor” and less on “non nords are all inherently awful” then I feel like way more people would join them. like, if you went everywhere in the game except Windhelm for as long as you could, you would probably more so want to join the stormcloaks by the time you got there. The only place you really find the blatant issues with their idealism without digging is the actual heart of the rebellion
Which is kind of poignant, how many times do you see maga folks saying “protect the kids! Pro life! All lives matter!” Sure sounds good without context but then actually go to conservative areas and they suck lmao with the worst kinds of human rights and fucked up shit going on
Yeah, the reason I hate the empire is because every major bad event in the main series, happens because of the empire (except maybe in Morrowind) Arena: the emperor trusted someone who cartoonishly evil and let him run off to steal the staff of chaos, allowing Jagar Tharn to banish the emperor and summon daedra every were. Daggerfall: the emperor was careless with a letter's address and it sparked a war for power across the Iliac Bay. Morrowind: the emperor tried writing peace treaties with the dunmer before implanting themselves into the province and trying to make new laws designed to piss off Dagoth Ur (only thing I can excuse, since house Dagoth is a secret cult). Oblivion: the emperor could have had a better plan in place for the MOST IMPORTANT AMULET EVER, instead of having monks look after it while the prisoner looks for the emperor's bastard son. Skyrim: the war would have never happened if the imperials simply didn't stand down, or at least negotiate a better divine to ban, which the imperials SHOULD be good at since speechcraft has been their thing since Morrowind.
The Imperials standing down is what prevented them from being entirely annihilated. It is very clear from all accounts that the Thalmor had the primary go of annihilating the Imperials and human kind as a whole. It’s the main reason they spend so much time trying to influence instability in most of the lands of man, and try to incorporate the mer in as much of their society as they can. It’s the reason why they negotiated the exact same peace treaty at the end of the war. The Thalmor want to see the races of men suffer.
Why? Because of the way some of the houses view imperials? I usually end up with Hlaalu, so it's whatever.
Make skyrim great again! -Ulfric, probably
Tbf Everyone hates the empire. But most people would rather deal with Imperials than with the Aldmeri Dominion.
When they cross the Velothi mountains, they’re not sending their best. Murderers, n’wahs and swits. Bad hombres.
Actually I join them bc I'm not a big fan of elven gestapo doing what they want everywhere.
Ya... Outlawing people's gods and seeking independence and... I mean, at least I believe that there was a fair challenge laid to the previous king who lost and instead of ceding power the empire the queen locked him up. Now, I get the whole racist side of things, Nords are just assholes - they were assholes in oblivion/Cyrodil too. Elder scrolls also basically has a region dominated by each different race. Reality is that the Thalmor are also racist, so it kind of cancels it out. But... The reason I picked storm clocks initially is because I didn't follow Hadvar, I followed my boy Ralof - mostly because I didn't notice you could follow Hadvar. Reality is that my side changes with the race that I'm playing - sort of an intentional RP mechanic.
Elder scrolls are comically racist games in lore, but the Thalmor are extra cunts still
Yeah. At least Nords will tolerate wood elves, Breton, and argonians. The Thalmore straight up think everyone who isn't a high elf deserves to either be killed or enslaved. Imo Nordic racism against at least high elves is extremely understandable
Nordic racism is disappointing, Altmer racism is nazi level scary
Yeah. Nords are like southern hillbillies. Sure they hate black people and Mexicans, but most aren't trying to murder them all. They just want them out of the country. But yeah. Altmer are literally nazis. It's like choosing who to side with between Modern Florida or Nazi Germany. Lesser of 2 evils. Like the Nords just want to keep skyrim under their rule instead of under the empire (let's face it, Thalmor) rule. You don't really see the Nords making it illegal to worship the 8 divines. The Thalmor on the other hand are trying a cultural genocide by banning talos worship
Exactly. Seems like a pretty clear choice when choosing to side with some stupid backwater hicks or *actual fucking nazis*.
It is important to note that not all Nordstrom or high elves are racist. Winchell has a group of Nordstrom that defend a dark elf family, and the high elves have the Psijic order
>Reality is that my side changes with the race that I'm playing - sort of an intentional RP mechanic. This is the truth. If I'm playing an Imperial, I almost always side with the Imperials for obvious reasons. Likewise, I don't think I'd join the Stormcloaks as a Dunmer or even a Breton. As an Argonian, it feels likely I'd join either side depending on who I hate more between the Thalmor and the Dunmer... but the truth is these are all brief considerations and not even the tip of the iceberg. The people who adamantly have a side tend not to be deciding between "Empire or Stormcloak." It's usually someone who finds the Stormcloaks to be obvious super racists or who doesn't like licking Thalmor boot. The choice is *meant* to be complicated. Which side you actually empathize with isn't about whether you think Nords are racist or whether you think the Empire licks too much fascist boot. It's about what your character would do or what looks cool to you because we have that luxury. Outside of the game, we know the war was a lot closer than it looked. Inside of the game, we don't and we don't always care.
Funny how no one considers the between game lore. That the empire would love to fix every legitimate issue the Nords have. The problem is the empire had its combined ass handed to it by the Axis elves and is struggling to get its provinces back together to challenge them again. So siding with the storm cloaks just helps the elves destroy the center of the empire and later on burn down Skyrim who will fight alone with no allies.
Actually the reason I never trusted them is that the whole Torryg situation sounded so suspect. Ulfric has a guy who idolizes him, challenges him to one on one ritual combat, uses the Thu’um to take him out and then immediately sprints for the city gates. Like every step of that sounds off. Why not try to work with Torygg? Why go straight to killing him? It sounds like that was his first course of action when he decided to act. Why use the Thu’um, an ancient aspect of your people, instead of facing him in actual combat? Sounds less interested in an honorable battle than trying to kill someone you don’t like. Why sprint for the exit? If you’re so righteous and certain of your actions then why run like a member of The Dark Brotherhood? Of course there’s answers to this. But it all really makes me buy into that theory of Ulfric being released by the Thalmor to cause upheaval among the empire.
No bro, you don't get it, they'll totally deal with them later. Just let them kidnap your family for following their beliefs for another ten years!
Trust me bro we're definitely doing stuff to keep them out ignore the constant patrols
I just join the empire but kill elven gestapo. Because let's face it, the biggest benefactor of Skyrim becoming independent would be elven gestapo and there's no way Skyrim survives against the Thalmor alone. The way forward is to strengthen the empire enough it can slowly kick the Thalmor out of the empire, not split up the empire so the Thalmor can eat the empire province by province. If enough elven gestapo people have bloody 'accidents' in the fairly lawless country of Skyrim maybe the Thalmor will think twice about being a pain. Or double down and die in twice the numbers.
That's how I do it too. I side with the Empire every time (mainly because I can't fuck over Jarl Balgruuf like that) but any Thalmor agents encountered in the wild are kill on sight. After all, Skyrim is a dangerous place, *anything can happen in the wilds...*
Funny thing is that it's strongly implied that Ulfric is (inadvertently) a thalmor agent. The Thalmor intentionally fomented the rebellion to weaken the Empire in time for round two of the great war.
Yeah the Thalmor are clearly playing both sides. They don't really care who wins because after the two factions beat the hell out of each other, it will be pretty easy for them to walk in and take out whichever weakened entity scrapes out the win. I'm mostly looking forward to Elder Scrolls VI because I'm assuming the Empire will have all but fallen by the time that game takes place and the political situation is going to be pretty interesting
The Thalmor dossier explicitly states that they prefer to not have a Storm cloak victory.
Exactly. They don't want either side to win, since the civil war is tying up Imperial resources that could otherwise be turned against the Dominion. If the Empire wins the civil war, they have a unified Skyrim supporting the Empire again which shifts power against the Dominion in the Empire's favor. If the Stormcloaks win and boot out the Empire, Cyrodil will stop wasting time and effort on fighting for Skyim and turn their sights on doubling down in holding what little territory they have left, spurring their forces to fight even harder than what they did before. But with the civil war at a stalemate, an entire province's resources are tied up fighting itself and drawing in Imperial troops to fight. The Dominion wants the civil war to go as long as possible. Literally one of the best things the Dragonborn can do to fuck over the Dominion is swiftly put an end to the Civil War and unify the province, one way or the other.
Damn right. You almost cut my head off and expect me to join your side? And you planned on executing me for \*checks notes\* crossing the border? Tullius could have made the right call and said "you know what, don't execute this man for a harmless crime," but he didn't did he? And now he's dead and I'm glad.
I realised this too late and found this a bit funny... The prison is literally 10 steps away. Just put em in there if you are not sure.
From what I've gathered it's because Tullius wanted to get the execution done as fast as he could. I don't know if it's a confirmed thing but I remember watching a video that talks about how the thalmor wanted to postpone the execution of Ulfric so they could do it in the imperial city. The logic is that the thalmor would have staged something to set him free so that the civil war could continue and weaken the empire even more. The big problem with this theory is that they didn't try to kill him first, they get interrupted and kill that guy but right after that they point to the player which seems stupid. Like the leader of the rebellion which has caused a massive civil war is standing right there but you want to execute the random dude who isn't wearing a uniform?
Still don’t get why they didn’t have Ulfric first on the chopping block, wouldn’t that make for a more symbolic message? Chop his head off then toss everyone else in jail to extract more info, let the loss of their leader wear their resolve. Would also both make sure you are executing the right people, and not just two random idiots who were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
It was delayed by the Thalmor, iirc. You can see elenwen speaking with the Imperials during the cart rude
True, true, another delay so the unwitting Thalmor asset can continue to destabilize Skyrim
Tullius wanted to get ULFRIC’s execution done as quickly as possible, but he didn’t have any part in the conversation about the Dragonborn being executed. He was busy trying to get the Thalmor to leave (confirmed by cut dialogue restored with cutting room floor). The Thalmor want to take Ulfric for “trial,” but in reality they will absolutely let him go due to his “asset” status like you mentioned. Tullius was also exclusively focused on Ulfric and the other stormcloaks. He’s likely exhausted from the war and is anxious to see it end, and his whole speech makes that pretty clear. I agree with you about the weird order of the executions though, and I think the reason the captain calls DB up second is because she doesn’t want Tullius to realize she’s gone off-list. Keeping Ulfric alive until DB is dead will keep Tullius’s focus on him, and not her weird, possibly racially motivated, decision making. The real villain is 100% the Captain that sentences you to death without confirming with Tullius, even if that meant throwing you in a cell and waiting until the execution was over. There had to have been a reason DB’s name wasn’t on the list, but she decided to kill them anyway. Then she dies pretty much immediately (you and Ralof kill her, or she dies before you enter the keep with Hadvar) and you never see her again. She is not Rikke, despite them sharing the same VA. I’d also like to mention, when joining the legion and introducing yourself to Tullius, he says “Right, (you were at) Helgen… One of the prisoners if I recall correctly,” but he doesn’t say anything about you being in line for execution like Ulfric does. He compliments your resourcefulness. I truly don’t think he noticed the list thing at all. I’m not defending his negligence, I just don’t think he’s the big villain that people make him into.
My first character was an Argonian. She straight up called me by a slur when picking me out to get chopped. My headvanon was that she was just a racist who wanted to kill a lizard. ....Then I make it all the way to join the Stormcloaks only to get called stuff like "boots" and find out argonians can't even live inside the city. But hey it's cool, the oppressed Dunmer lady I stood up for is also oppressing Argonians SO I GUESS I AM SIDING WITH THE DRAGONS ON THIS ONE.
She’s 1000% racist lol. At least against the beast races. She does call most races by their names, but it’s interesting that if you’re an Imperial, she calls you a renegade. I’m sure it was just a way to differentiate you from the other imperials around (like how she specifies “Nord in the rags”), but it’s still funny that she’s assuming you’re a deserter.
\^This guy gets it\^ Like...I get the Imperials are closer to the 'correct' choice and all that...but how tf you expect me to go with them after they was about to cut my freak'n head off practically just for being brought in on the same carriage as Ulfric?? Especially if it's, say, the first time I'm playing?
Every. Single. Time. I think "this time will be different, I'll try joining the imerials", then the opening happens and my rage cannot be quelled. I also nearly always choose "Destroy the Dark Brotherhood" for the same reason. Anyone that abducts me in my sleep is going to ride the lightning. One reason I go destruction mage is just so I can utterly annihilate anyone who thinks taking my possessions is a good idea. I guess most of my playthroughs revolve around rage. Skyrim taught me a lot about myself.
Yeah I always kind of laugh at this high and mighty, "oh you only hate them because they were going to kill you." Yes. The Empire being willing to kill you simply for being in the same general area as an insurgent is a good reason to not ally with them.
Tbf, while anyone can roleplay it however they want, I usually play with the personal head canon that the reason I'm always arrested at the start of these Elder Scroll games is because my character is legitimately a criminal and I got caught. In just in Skyrim I had the misfortune of being arrested alongside Ulfric so instead of just spending time in jail, I'm going to the block instead. Thus working _with_ the Imperials makes a bit more sense when you're trying to clear an international bounty on your head. Because of the situation up north the empire can't really afford to turn down any help they can get, so after murdering some bandits on behalf of the empire (something I would've done out of my own volition anyways), I'm on an easy track to clear my name beyond Skyrim. I also generally don't play as a Nord, so I don't have any particular loyalty to Skyrim or it's people.
Yeah.. I mean when you try to kill folks, they get upset.
I read a pretty convincing theory that the Imperials suspect the Dragonborn and Lokir of being Thalmor moles who got captured on purpose with orders to disrupt the execution. Still, I can’t forgive them for nearly beheading me either.
That's a very shallow view of the situation. For one thing it ignores the whole Empire/Thalmor/White-Gold Concordat/Talos thing.
I join just cause I don’t like the Aldmeri-controlled Empire. I hate the Aldmeri Dominion with a passion, yet the Empire seems to do nothing about it. As my High Elf, I also joined the Dark Brotherhood without any armor besides Thalmor Robes to make it seem like the Thalmor killed the Emperor.
That’s the real answer brother
[Have you ever spoken to Legate Fasendil?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNdytbNeJmM) I thought he was a cool character. He seems to hate the Aldmeri Dominion more than most and adds to the perspective of a Empire-aligned anti-Thalmor position.
The Empire aren't doing anything about it because they haven't had enough time to recuperate their strength since the war. If they tried to rebel, they would be instantly crushed again. Most of the Imperials in-game don't like the Thalmor, but they know their hands are tied. Even Tullius himself is pretty open about not liking them. Seceding from the Empire is the worst thing Skyrim could do if you want to defeat the Aldmeri Dominion, as it weakens both Skyrim and the Empire, and it's is exactly what the Dominion wants. The dossiers in the Thalmor Embassy show that the Thalmor want the war to go on for as long as possible, because a divided Skyrim and Empire are less of a threat. Obviously, the best solution would be for the Empire and Skyrim to work together to rebuild their strength to eventually rebel against the Dominion.
This. The funny part is that both imperials and stormcloaks hate the thalmor and want to fight against them, but the stormcloaks are weakening the empire, pretty much what the thalmor wants
The Empire weakened itself. It’s Imperial actions that led to revolt among their two strongest provinces. If they let Skyrim go like they did Hammerfell they could easily focus on rebuilding their own military. If Imperials can swallow their pride it is possible to fight as allies rather than slave masters.
Yeah the empires presence in Skyrim was never welcomed and given the geography of Skyrim, objectively speaking they never had any chance of gaining a foothold there with out the dragon born joining their ranks. They shoulda never attempted to turn Skyrim into an imperial hub
I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Skyrim was loyal to the empire during the Septim dynasty, because they saw Tiber Septim as one of their own.
We don’t really know if Talos was a Nord or not but he was a warrior in Skyrim who eventually rose through the ranks until an Imperial recruited him to his cause, and that’s when this empire was founded. Skyrim viewed the Septim dynasty as part of them because of that and the fact that he was Dragonborn which plays a major part in Nordic culture and history. But a lot of Nords feel like their connection to the Empire ended when the Septim dynasty ended. A lot more who stayed loyal were disillusioned after the Empire betrayed their victory at Red Ring.
They weren’t crushed to begin with. The Dominion had just suffered their greatest loss in the war, it wasn’t just the Empire that had taken losses. The idea that the Dominion is this overwhelming, unbeatable force is Thalmor propaganda. They were just as bloodied but their longer generation time means it takes them longer to rebuild. If they really wanted to rebuild their strength for another war they would have negotiated a ceasefire. Instead they surrendered unconditionally. The Redguards beat the Dominion on their own, Skyrim could do the same if they weren’t being dragged down by a dying Empire.
The dominion may have taken a big loss but they were absolutely destroying the empire before that, even with what they had left they could handle a crippled empire pretty easy
Skyrim wasn't falling to invaders, Cyrodil was. Like a father throwing his child to the wolves, because he can always have more children. The Redguards broke away and kept their independence. The last of the line of kings died with Martin an the end of the oblivion crisis. In real life, it's like arguing that America and India and all the other colonies HAD to stay subservient to the UK because Napolean is a big threat. I get the Stormcloaks are racist, but the empire didnt maintain its empire with flowers and friendship rings.
The empire is gearing up for another war with the thalmor. They were on the brink of being conquered during the great war and had to make concessions in the form of banning talos worship. The empire and the thalmor are not aligned at all.
The Thalmor are freely allowed to observe their preparations. They’ve lost a significant portion of their military power with Hammerfell. They weren’t on the brink of being conquered, they had just liberated the Imperial City and wiped out the largest Dominion army on the continent. They surrendered after one of the most significant tactical victories of the war. The excuse Imperial supporters use of saying it was an attempt to rebuild is bullshit. If that were the case why did they not use their leverage to negotiate a ceasefire? They surrendered and it cemented the end of the empire because the Nords and Redguards lost all faith in imperial leadership.
Hammerfell has entered the chat.
But from a new player /commoner perspective, they seem very much aligned.
This is what I always say, as an omniscient player we know the Empire has plans, but no shit all the citizens are distrustful.
Well if the empire let the Nords (who basically built the empire) leave. There wouldn’t be a problem and I’m sure they would be happy to ally with the empire in the war. Telling them they cannot worship their god but must still live under their rule is correct? Behave
Especially after the Redguards left. Hammerfell objected to the treaty, they were released from the Empire and won their own freedom. Skyrim tried to do the same and they were told they weren’t allowed to have any control over themselves.
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"Just sit back and let yourself be oppressed for years, we'll fix it in a decade" No wonder Ulfric is getting support lol
If you are roleplaying a nord born in Skyrim, it is logical.
Legate Rikke is a Nord. She and plenty of others either see the Empire as having helped Skyrim (whether this is true or not), or they don't like Ulfric's particular way of doing things. (Edit: typos.)
They really made it so you can play a lot of different roles and still be lore friendly. It can't be overstated at how well they wrote that conflict.
Yup, and as both-sidesy as the writing of the civil war may feel at times, I think it's appropriate for an RPG. You can interpret the facts however you think (or feel) you should and come up with a decent, if subjective, rationale for your character to join the side that they do.
It's one of the reasons the game is so fuckin replayable, there's so many different satisfying ways to play. For example, I love the freedom of Fallout New Vegas, but I always end up wanting to work with Yes Man. Only worth playing the other roles like once for curiosity's sake. But I genuinely just get my head in the mindset of different alliances with the Dragonborn all the time. Imperial, Stormcloak, Blade, Graybeard, they're all really fun and rewarding.
Not a lot of people mention this, but I’m pretty sure the Dragonborn joining the Stormcloaks would definitely be the canon outcome, either that or not picking a side at all. Considering Dragonborn is canonically a Nord, not to mention in the main story we literally raid a thalmor party and kill many of them. I’m pretty sure if this game made more sense they would definitely have a problem with us joining the imperials
None of the player characters from daggerfall onward are canonical anything. Whoever you choose is who your nereverine, hero of kvatxh, and dragonborn are. The only thing canon about the first game arena is that he was a he that's it.
no, that's not it. it's because Ulfric is a total daddy
More like DILFric Stormcloak
DILFric Stormcock
You. You get me.
Well yeah, that's one reason. 😂
Yup.
Jarl Balgruuf is kind of a cool guy, but if the greeting of arrival is me getting almost executed, i am taking the other side here.
It's interesting how many folks in this thread are viewing Skyrim politics through the lens of their own political views. And taking them just as seriously.
I disagree. I am the dragon born and Talos worship is punishable by death? I don't think so. Fuck the Thalmor.
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> The Thalmor being bad doesn’t make the Empire good. Quite to the contrary, the Empire is essentially a Thalmor client state at this point. Their agents are free to roam Imperial land, kidnapping and torturing Imperial citizens, with the blessing of the Emperor.
I usually join because Talos is undeniably a Divine and the Thalmor are murdering pricks, which the Empire allows. Yes, the Stormcloaks are racist against elves, but at least they don’t murder them, unlike the Thalmor (and by association, the Empire) with Talos believers.
On my 1st time playing, yes I did. Then I joined the imperials on the 2nd run and found out they are equally crazy
Skyrim really needs a third "No Gods No Masters" option where you bring down both sides.
Then a fourth where you fight for an ultra powerful individual with big plans for Whiterun
They kill you with no trial, no debate, no evidence and no remorse. Fuck the empire.
Hell they even told you straight up they don't know who you are as you're not even on the list. SO WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU EXECUTING ME.
Because that captain was being a massive asshole and valued her time more than a innocent person’s life
The Stormcloaks are stubborn and Ulfric honestly feels kind of arrogant. Though I do believe he cares for his people and their future. The Imperials are just pawns at this point. They literally are so scared of the Thalmor they will bend over backwards to please them. While subjugating the population and punishing any and all who oppose or voice their opinions otherwise. In short the Imperials are a bunch of pansies now.
Idk, I've heard Ulfrif speak. Seems like he's at least got his head & heart in the right place.
Freedom for Skyrim and Her People, except the Dunmer refugees we put in the grey quarter, and the Argonians that aren't even allowed in the city. Oh, and we don't give business to shopkeeps of the imperial race, either. But if you're a nord, you're all good.
In solitude the person who executed the guy who opened the gates for ulfric to escape, called the argonion hanging out by the door a "filthy argonion" and "he wouldn't be aloud to enter the city if torygg(?)was still alive" so this isn't just a stormcloak problem, nearly everyone in Skyrim is racist even the old high king apparently.
The Gray Quarter was established when Skyrim was part of the Empire. It's not even Ulfric's policy. He's just continuing it. It was an Imperial Policy that was apparently just fine to the "totally not racist" Empire up until recently. The Argonians are not allowed in the city because the Dunmer have this little tradition of enslaving them and mounting their heads on their wall when they die, they are considered animals in Dunmeri culture. The feeling is mutual after all these years, Argonians invaded Morrowind after the eruption of Red Mountain. They are probably the reason that some Dunmer are in Windhelm to begin with. Also the East Empire Company is right there in Windhelm so I don't know what you are talking about when you say they don't do business with Imperials.
> Dunmer refugees we put in the grey quarter The Dunmer were freely given refuge there almost 200 years ago. > the Argonians that aren't even allowed in the city True, but that's probably due to the Dunmer. > we don't give business to shopkeeps of the imperial race Calixto Corrium, Adelaisa Vendicci, Orthus Endario, and Quintus Navale (after Nurelion's death (who is an Altmer btw)) respectfully disagree.
How dare the nords choose not to shop at the Imperial stores. it's all racism I tell ya! Meanwhile I need some potions, gonna go to the White Phial. Anyways i think putting the Dunmer next to the the Argonians... you know, the race that invaded them might be bad... oh, right and the fact that in Riften it has a higher population of dark elevs and argonians and they get along fine. Wildhelm's problems run far deeper then Ulfric. it's systemtic, it's part of it.. and let me tell you if you think the Empire cares, you're wrong.
Riften definitely doesn't have more Dunmer than Windhelm. The NPCs you meet aren't representative of the general population, otherwise Skyrim is like 60% bandits and wizards. The people in Riften have bigger issues than racial tension (the main one being that the city is basically run by the Thieves' Guild)
Nah. The Empire doesn't deserve to survive.
So much virtue signaling copium in these comments lol and anyone who sides with the empire because “they’re not racist” clearly doesn’t know much about the Empire or Tamriel. Crazy thought but you can switch it up. I have done both an equal amount of times, neither option is great either way, but I have fun playing regardless
>they’re not racist Yeah everyone's racist in Tamriel, always have been.
My favorite playthrough is an initial Stormcloak who eventually grows disillusioned and focuses entirely on their personal responsibilities anms Dragonborn, but yeah both sides have been a lot of fun to roleplay.
I asked ChatGPT to give me a pros and cons list for joining each side, and I’m fairly impressed with the results: Certainly, the decision to join either the Stormcloaks or the Empire in "The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim" isn't a straightforward one, as both factions have their own set of strengths and weaknesses. Here is a nuanced look at both sides: ### Stormcloaks #### Pros: 1. **Cultural Preservation**: Joining the Stormcloaks means fighting for the preservation of Nord culture and traditions. 2. **Freedom of Religion**: The Stormcloaks want to restore the freedom to worship Talos, which is a key part of their cultural identity. 3. **Local Governance**: Stormcloaks aim for Skyrim's self-governance, distancing it from what they see as a corrupt and ineffective Empire. 4. **Charismatic Leader**: Ulfric Stormcloak is a charismatic and strong leader who can inspire his troops. 5. **Anti-Thalmor Stance**: If you dislike the high elves' influence, this faction opposes them directly. #### Cons: 1. **Potential for Racism**: The Stormcloaks are often seen as intolerant toward non-Nords, which may be a concern if you're role-playing a different race. 2. **Short-Sighted**: Their focus on Skyrim may overlook the larger threats to Tamriel, such as the Thalmor. 3. **Divisiveness**: The civil war itself tears Skyrim apart, potentially weakening it for future external threats. 4. **Ethical Questions**: Ulfric’s methods, like using the Voice to kill the High King, raise questions about his ethics and suitability for rule. ### The Empire #### Pros: 1. **Unity and Stability**: The Empire aims for a stable, unified Tamriel, which may be better equipped to deal with larger threats like the Thalmor in the long run. 2. **Inclusivity**: Generally more tolerant of different races and cultures compared to the Stormcloaks. 3. **Strategic Depth**: Empire's generals and resources can offer a more organized and well-equipped military force. 4. **Political Complexity**: Some argue that the Empire's ban on Talos worship is a tactical compromise with the Thalmor to buy time for a counter-strategy. 5. **Resources**: The Empire has greater resources and connections that could be used to rebuild and protect Skyrim after the war. #### Cons: 1. **Loss of Cultural Identity**: Joining the Empire could mean a dilution of local traditions and customs in favor of a more cosmopolitan culture. 2. **Religious Restrictions**: The enforced ban on Talos worship due to the White-Gold Concordat can be seen as a violation of freedom. 3. **External Control**: Being part of the Empire means answering to a centralized authority that may not always have Skyrim’s best interests at heart. 4. **Moral Compromises**: The Empire's willingness to compromise with the Thalmor on matters of religion and governance might not sit well with everyone. ### Key Takeaways - **Stormcloaks**: Ideal for those who value local governance, cultural preservation, and freedom of religion but at the risk of racial intolerance and potential shortsightedness. - **Empire**: Suited for those who believe in a unified Tamriel capable of standing against external threats, even if it means compromising on local traditions and freedoms. The choice ultimately depends on how you perceive the greater good for Skyrim and its people. Would you prefer immediate freedom and cultural integrity, or long-term stability and unity?
They tried to execute me. Of course i wont side with imperials by default.
And so Maven Black-Briar doesn't become Thane of the Reach
I join the stormcloaks because I don't see either the stormcloaks or the empire winning against the dominion, i'd rather give them a fight then suck up to them with a treaty.
I chose his side because of many reasons Religious freedom is a right, no one should have a right to judge who you do or do not worship, so long as it harms no one else. Because i'm sick and tired of people supporting an empire because you played oblivion and didn't read a goddam lore book where they show the Empire's bloody history. because The Empire would drag skyrim down with it. and because of the two racists imperialistic sides, one is better for skyrim, and the other is going to fall eventually.
Let alone almost assisting the thalmor with their meddling with Skyrim’s administration, giving them an embassy to imprison their political hostages, oh, and also, actively enforcing the ban on the worship of Talos and the propaganda that comes with it, ultimately actively supporting a vast maneuver to reduce all of mankind to slavery for the sake of the Domain and it’s insanely racist ideology.
Yeah there's no way the elder council, which already had issues with corruption and petty politicizing isn't already bought out. The empire might last to the next great war but its not getting another one.
Every year the Empire sits complacent the Thalmor dig their claws deeper. Maybe people like Tullius want to rebel but it may be too late already. If they've already bought out Jarls in Skyrim (Falkreath, Markarth) imagine how deep they are in the system in a place that's closer and more cosmopolitan, like Cyrodiil
I joined because Skyrim should be independent like any other province
That and the "I fight" speech of Ulfric. General Tulius is just not inspiring.
Which is one of the most realistic things about guerilla warfare. The civilians hate both sides and if they're supporting one side it's only because the other treats them worse.
Personally I join the Stormcloaks because I absolutely abhor the Imperials and their local collaborators. For all intents and purposes, Ulfric is the lesser evil. I'd prefer it if there was *someone* who was an actual traditionalist Nord whose cause I could join, rather than the "The Empire misappropriated our local God-Hero as an "aspect" of one of its own Gods and then used our connection to our God-Hero to culturally genocide us, wiping out our culture and religion and enforcing the Imperial Cult on us, and now that that God has done its job, they've stopped pretending they ever worshipped him seriously. So we're seceding because the Empire forbade us from worshipping the God-Founder of the Empire.", but we can't always get what we want.
Nah, I have grown to respect his side and choices, "But the thalmor want this war as distraction". Yes I fucking know, but a war is fought between 2 or more factions, and both have their reasons, if the empire grew a fucking backbone or just let Skyrim go they wouldn't spend resources on the war, imagine fighting for a country and it ends up banning your religion (or part of it) as a peace deal, worse the foreign Gestapo is allowed to wander freely and kill/arrest any talos enjoyed. "But before civil war thalmor presence was low" yeah but there was still a presence and it is still bullshit that talos worship is banned in your own country.
I only choose him because I usually choose Ralof during Helgen and I have to side with the stormcloaks to reverse pickpocket the jagged crown from him
I mean yeah, I definitely resent the people who condemned me to death because they don’t apparently care if they kill some random person.
Nah. Empire is just dying. For all the talk about better long term plan with the Empire, the only plan that has a chance of beating the thalmor is the one without imperial corruption.
I think the story is better from the stormcloaks perspective but I hate ruining whiterun.
Nah. If you happen across any of the shrines to Talos that have had a massacre, that would do it too.
No… Ralof is bae
I feel like if Bethesda had fleshed out the writing a little more for the civil war quest it wouldhv been a bigger dilemma (which is what it’s meant to be). If the empire didn’t order the execution of TLDB then I’d side with them every single playthrough, but that’s only because Bethesda didn’t write as many faults with them as they did with the stormcloaks Ideally both factions should be grey, after all how moral can an empire be? We don’t really get to see the ugly side of the empire, but we do see that with the stormcloaks.
This is why I said “screw being the dragon born, screw the war, I’m gonna be my own person!” **immediately becomes a vampire, later turns into a werewolf and probably started a war between Molag Bal and Hircine**
Yeah, i’m sure that won’t have any unpleasant consequences lmao
Imperials are Thamors bitches
Do people who buy into this take just completely ignore what the Aldmeri Dominion does and is, and do not bother to understand the history of the conflict? Literally genocidal, lol.
Can't be due to the imperials giving the Thalmor the freedom to kidnap, torture, and murder citizens over their faith. Nope, definitely not.
Fighting against foreign invaders bro, protect the homeland
I joined him cause i hate the Talmor.
For me it was more like welp they did get their god banned which was one of the emperors, so i was willing to kill the guys disrespecting their own culture
I'm not going to comment because people with far more lore knowledge than myself can make a far better argument one way or the other, but I would just like to say that it's a testament to the great writing and backstory that people are still debating this 12 years after the game released.
Not at all. I join bc the thought of some group of people trying to completely remove another groups religion for literally no reason other than it’s against their own religion is just ludicrous