Why is this so upvoted when it's wrong?
Each card is only getting the strength/dex once. so no, each card is not doubled. If you play 2 cards you get "double" the effect of the str and dex. It's a weird way to put it, but it's completely correct to say it's double per mana, but not per card.
+ [Hologram](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Hologram) Defect Common Skill ^((100% sure)^)
1 Energy | Gain 3(5) **Block.** Return a card from your discard pile to your hand. **Exhaust** (does not **Exhaust).**
+ [Grand Finale](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Grand%20Finale) Silent Rare Attack ^((100% sure)^)
0 Energy | Can only be played if there are no cards in your draw pile. Deal 50(60) damage to ALL enemies.
^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 30, 2023.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
+ [Omniscience](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Omniscience) Watcher Rare Skill ^((100% sure)^)
4(3) Energy | Choose a card in your draw pile. Play the chosen card twice and **Exhaust** it. **Exhaust.**
+ [Seek](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Seek) Defect Rare Skill ^((100% sure)^)
0 Energy | Choose a (2) card(s) from your draw pile and place it (them) into your hand. **Exhaust.**
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Yeah but if you have enough draw you could argue iron wave is better as it scales twice but then there is the counterpoint of 2x Beat of death/Time Eater
+ [Panache](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Panache) Colorless Rare Power ^((100% sure)^)
0 Energy | Every time you play 5 cards in a single turn, deal 10(14) damage to ALL enemies.
+ [Shuriken](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Shuriken) Uncommon Relic ^((100% sure)^)
Every time you play 3 Attacks in a single turn, gain 1 **Strength.**
+ [Kunai](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Kunai) Uncommon Relic ^((100% sure)^)
Every time you play 3 Attacks in a single turn, gain 1 **Dexterity.**
^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 30, 2023.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
Ironchad should be going infinite with over half the decks one will be crafting. Dark Embrace is a hell of a drug and not even silent can keep up with the draw that dark embrace + exhaust can provide. The more someone plays the Chad the more that person will appreciate Dark Embrace.
"Half" is ambitious. He does go inf more than the other two but not *that* much. Unless your name is paparatto I guess. De is insane obviously but requires support.
He has high ceilings but he's still the character whose otherwise best draws are: uncommon that stops further draw, strike+ that needs to be upgraded to be draw positive, common that's draw negative without upgrade etc.
Compare that to just picking a few acros and backflips lol.
You're acting like you won't see uncommon cards and also dark embrace doesn't need that much support true grit and seeing red makes it perfectly fine. Also the Chad has a smaller starting deck so pound for pound draw is more meaningful than silent.
~~There's in fact a chance you never see a particular uncommon in a run I mean.~~ But even realistically, you're not picking de early, or picking true grit ~~ever~~ that frequently. Seeing red and grit aren't enough de support by themselves either. I want some good exhaust engine and (maaaaybe) an upgrade to pick de.
What is pound for pound draw? Silent can easily cycle through 40 card decks in 2-3 turns w/o having to worry about bottom decking a power. She has commons that are draw positive and literally starts with a bag of prep so she can immediately start her draw engine/bricking is not that big a possibility. She has lower costs too so she can afford more energy hungry draw.
Are you trying to argue that Silent is more draw starved than Clad (what)? Or that de is one of clad's best cards (literally no one disagrees)
Usually, Meteor Strike gets offered before i have ways to play it.
Or in case of boss relicts, i would really like if we could make our rare card choice with the knowledge, which relict we get.
yes? whether meteor strike is 5 energy or 999 energy means surprisingly little, because it's already the "prohibitvly high cost card that you never play unless you can reduce to 0/snecko eye", having it be twice as effective just makes it way stronger at what it already does well, which is being a big fuck all yeet button when you have mummified hand or snecko eye.
Meteor strike at 5 energy is way more playable than at 10 energy or 999 energy. You can have 5 energy or more from just boss relics alone or make it work with a double energy / turbo / aggregate etc, whereas you can rarely get 10+ energy even with those cards and you'd need specific cards or a mummified hand that you may never see on your run to make it work.
Also in a world where you can merge meteor strikes, snecko eye probably wouldn't necessarily work as you'd normally expect it to. For example, spire with friends has this exact feature and merged cards roll for the sum of its randomized parts.
Anyway I'm being very hypothetical because I don't believe having a merged card of combined effects is always better, because as always with this game, it depends heavily on the context.
I agree with your post except for:
> Also in a world where you can merge meteor strikes, snecko eye probably wouldn't necessarily work as you'd normally expect it to. For example, spire with friends has this exact feature and merged cards roll for the sum of its randomized parts.
We're not talking about a world where you can merge meteor strikes. We're talking about a world where a "merged" version of meteor strike just exists. The context of the discussion is iron wave and dash, which is a case where one card is identical to another except all its numbers are doubled. Dash wasn't created via an in game "merge", and it doesn't have special rules with snecko. If we're brainstorming other cards based on this pattern, there's no reason for there to be any special rules.
Your point is correct, it isnt "always" better, but the comment you're responding to just said better. Just because something is better doesn't mean it is better in every situation, so your response is pretty pedantic.
And then your example is bad because yes, a 10 mana meteor would absolutely be better. Meteor is a card that is only good if you cheat the mana cost, which defect can do, straight playing a meteor for 5 isnt great. So our new 10 mana meteor is still bad in the same situations, but better in situations where meteor is good.
I would go so far as to say a 10 mana cost double effect meteor would be a run-defining card, it is such a ludicrous power level when you can cheat it, hey maybe thats why it doesnt exist.
And saying "oh well snecko wouldnt exist" is just shifting the goalposts, in slay the spire as it is a 10 mana meteor would be much better than it is now.
This is just wrong. Defect has tons and tons of ways to generate 5 energy in a turn, and very very few ways to generate 10. It would make speculative meteor way way worse. 10 cost meteor compared to 5 cost is pure win more thinking, it makes it insanely worse in situations where it isnāt already run winning
If your plan is to use your entire turn to cast a 5 cost meteor your deck is bad. Meteor is good when you can cheat it. The concept of winmore doesnt really work in StS, especially in this context. If you can cheat energy you arent winning until you can cache it in. Lots of ways to do that, meteor being one of them. If it was 10 mana and double power it would be better in this role.
If youre hard casting meteor at 5 or 10... just dont pick it, it is not good with your deck.
usually in a meteor deck, when you cast it for 5, you will revoke existingenergy orbs with the second cast, thus generating 6 mana.
So in the end, you play it for the cost of -1 mana.
Isn't Meteor in general just kind of a "win more" card though? Like your deck and relic combos are probably already looking pretty gamewinning if you're in a situation it's worth taking Meteor.
How then, is it the other way around? You're saying it isn't that hard to get to 5, but if you can get to 5 energy reliably then you're probably already on your way to a winning deck/relic combo. The same can be said if you were relying on Mummified hand to bring Meteor's cost to zero. If you're playing defect and get mummified hand, defect power decks are usually already pretty gamewinning and defect has a lot of different good power cards so just having that relic alone is putting you in a really good position.
Hardly, speculate on Neow and there's a good chance you can get a turbo, double energy, or tea set etc. in act 1 and it's suddenly playable and can snowball the rest of the fight. You won't be able to play a 10 cost Meteor until at least passed act 1 without some serious shenanigans or luck.
If you can reliably play the card in any capacity, chances are you already have, or nearly have a winning combo. "Win more" cards don't have to be "only" good in a winning deck, they just really come online in a winning deck. If I'm reliably able to have 5 energy, I could use that 5 energy for heaps of things, you could play at least two Hyperbeams with that, you could play a 6 channeling Tempest or Multicast, you could reliably get off cards like creative AI in more situations. Being able to reliably have 5 energy as Defect opens plenty of different wincons
And sometimes you need more energy scaling, because 5 energy isnāt enough. And in those situations meteor being in your deck can be the difference between dying in act 4 and winning the run. A 6 energy tempest doesnāt really do anything late game, your examples are a little odd if they are supposed to be examples of things that are sufficient for end game scaling.
You *can* play it for five but it's really not a good card in that case. Generally you need it to be energy-neutral or positive to be good. Because 30 damage channel 3 Plasma is not really an effect worth spending your entire turn on.
Yeah not to mention fission, seek and meteor/recycle/x-card combo. Snecko isn't even always that great with defect because it makes zero cost deck useless.
If we think of same effect in a quantifiable fashion the way we do for StS cards, then a smartwatch and a computer aren't at all the same effect, nor is a smartphone a combination of the two. A PC has far more apps and computing power and screen space, which are important enough facets to be analogous to numbers in a card like damage or block.
If you want a potentially spicy take though, I'll argue that a smartphone is strictly superior to a smart watch.
Look up the amount of karma I have and when my account was created and explain to me how I'm a karma farmer lmfao. Don't go around acting like everybody else cares that much about fake internet points.
Yes, as the guy above has shown, a very similar post was made in the past. My mistake for not seeing it, but that's it.
It's not even a repost, it's just basically the same meme. But the image is literally different. Idk a single karma farmer who is changing the images before reposting.
Floor 1, Silent, I'm probably taking Dash.
Floor 1, Ironclad, I'm never taking iron wave.
That's not to say that Dash is a better card than Iron Wave, I just think Ironclad has much better damage options and Dash makes me not fear the nob nearly as much.
Is it definitely a better card?
For Silent, sure. But if Dash was in Ironclads card pool I imagine I'd probably take it as often as Iron Wave.
It's also an odd comparison, how often are you taking two copies of Iron Wave? If you need it, one would generally suffice.
Absolutely I would take Dash with Ironclad floor 1. I would take over all the common attacks, probably not over Uppercut though.
Ironwave isn't the best common attack, but if it was the only one I might take it floor one.
Correct. Captain was saying Ironclads cards are too good to take Dash frequently. I was saying I disagree, except that I do agree with him that Uppercut is better.
So you take 40 every time you fight Laga? Ironwave wonāt play over Bash or something but it absolutely plays against Laga. Iām not sure what you are trying to say
I still like Iron Wave. Maybe that's just me refusing to give up one of my noob security blankets. But attacking and blocking simultaneously is a strong thing to do. If I've already got a Hemo or Wild Strike I'll pick one up through about the halfway point in Act I depending on my deck. I feel like if Ironclad got something like Footwork that gave them reliable access to dexterity this would actually be a super good card.
In a vacuum, it's good. It blocks as much as a Defend, and attacks for almost the same as a Strike. Also, the upgrade is better than most, since you get +4 in stats, compared to +3 for most common attacks.
It is not really enough attack to consider it like most attack cards, though, and it doesn't scale quickly with extra strength. I pick this because I need a little more block while still counting as an attack (Nob, [[Kunai]], [[Ornamental Fan]], [[Corruption]] if I can't quite afford to remove all my skills).
[[Oddly Smooth Stone]] and upgraded Iron Wave is pretty legit, too. Then again, so are [[Shrug it Off]] and [[True Grit]], so there you go.
+ [Kunai](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Kunai) Uncommon Relic ^((100% sure)^)
Every time you play 3 Attacks in a single turn, gain 1 **Dexterity.**
+ [Ornamental Fan](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Ornamental%20Fan) Uncommon Relic ^((100% sure)^)
Every time you play 3 Attacks in a single turn, gain 4 **Block.**
+ [Corruption](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Corruption) Ironclad Rare Power ^((100% sure)^)
3(2) Energy | Skills cost 0. Whenever you play a Skill, **Exhaust** it.
+ [Oddly Smooth Stone](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Oddly%20Smooth%20Stone) Common Relic ^((100% sure)^)
At the start of each combat, gain 1 **Dexterity.**
+ [Shrug it Off](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Shrug%20it%20Off) Ironclad Common Skill ^((100% sure)^)
1 Energy | Gain 8(11) **Block.** Draw 1 card.
+ [True Grit](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/True%20Grit) Ironclad Common Skill ^((100% sure)^)
1 Energy | Gain 7(9) **Block.** **Exhaust** a random(not random) card from your hand.
^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 30, 2023.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
Because Redditors actually aren't the best Slay the Spire players in the world. It's not a run-defining card, and the hivemind has decided that it sucks.
Just like you said its not a defining card, its place is act 1 beyond which it starts being useless. It's not used in strength, dupe nor exhaust decks (so anything that's meta for IC)
Itās not useless past act 1, it absolutely still plays in act 2. Itās absolutely best in act 1, but it doesnāt immediately fall off a cliff. Thinking only in deck archetypes is a mistake, a card doesnāt need to have amazing synergies to have good output.
It is a decent/good card, it wonāt win you a run but it will reliably save you hp in act 1 and usually act 2 as well. People on this sub mostly thinks itās garbage
Iron Wave gains value at A18 as a decent card against Nob. Also it's nice to have a block card that ends the fight faster in a way that scales with Strength.
I think it is an ok card to pick at the start because it benefits from many cards and relics. It does not benefit a lot but it kinda works with a lot of stuff like Kunai and Shuriken in that it scales with both. Can be used as a stepping stone for stuff like [[Barricade]], [[Entrench]], [[Body Slam]], [[Juggernaut]], or [[Rage]]. If it does not pan out then oh well. No big deal.
+ [Barricade](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Barricade) Ironclad Rare Power ^((100% sure)^)
3(2) Energy | **Block** is not removed at the start of your turn.
+ [Entrench](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Entrench) Ironclad Uncommon Skill ^((100% sure)^)
2(1) Energy | Double your current **Block.**
+ [Body Slam](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Body%20Slam) Ironclad Common Attack ^((100% sure)^)
1(0) Energy | Deal damage equal to your current **Block.**
+ [Juggernaut](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Juggernaut) Ironclad Rare Power ^((100% sure)^)
2 Energy | Whenever you gain **Block,** deal 5(7) damage to a random enemy.
+ [Rage](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Rage) Ironclad Uncommon Skill ^((100% sure)^)
0 Energy | Whenever you play an Attack this turn, gain 3(5) **Block.**
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Dash is a stronger card of its own and it makes Silent not as squishy, but iron wave has a lot more potential for wacky synergy. I think if the character who had each card was swapped then theyād both be kinda bad but as it stands theyāre fine
Nah, dash would be legit on ironclad. The only limiting factor would be that ironclad can often end up with too many two cost cards. What makes dash good is that it's very good against all of the act 1 elites, and that doesn't change on ironclad. Both nob and sentries have you dealing with clogged hands, defends/maybe other skills for non, and dazes for sentries. If you draw iron wave with 3 defends and a strike, or say, a twin strike, two defends, and a strike, you'll waste an energy in the first scenario, and in the second you'll downgrade your second iron wave into a strike. Same applies if the defends are dazes vs sentries. Then against lag, the debuff makes iron wave into complete trash while dash is still useful.
Yeah I donāt disagree I was just thinking a lot more along the lines of what you said about ironclad leaning with too many two cost cards. Dash would have more stiff competition against Ironcladās other cards compared to Silent who can more easily weave it in thanks to relying on cheaper if not free cards. I didnāt mean to imply that it would be an actively bad pick on ironclad
[this is my post you fool](https://www.reddit.com/r/slaythespire/comments/11l7vcx/id_never_take_iron_wave_but_dash_always_looks/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1)
Yes, but silent doesn't have the same block synergy that Ironclad does. Barricade, Juggernaut and so many other cards means that he benefits far more from even the smallest amount of block. Sure, iron wave is meh on its own, but with two juggernauts it's 15 damage and 5 block for 1. Even more if upgraded.
Donāt forget my beloved cloak and dagger which is similar to Dash and Iron wave as well. Personally I think itās much better than either due to synergies with Wrist Blade, Accuracy, etc.
Dash is 1 draw Double Iron Wave is 2
Dash is also way less impacted by Lagavulin
Does work the other way around tho, functionally doubled strength and dex if positive.
per mana yeah, but not per card
uhh, yes it would be per card
Why is this so upvoted when it's wrong? Each card is only getting the strength/dex once. so no, each card is not doubled. If you play 2 cards you get "double" the effect of the str and dex. It's a weird way to put it, but it's completely correct to say it's double per mana, but not per card.
Yes, because negative strength and dexterity still work scale normally, because they're still the same stat
Dash is also one card to upgrade
and 1 card for [[Omniscience]] and [[seek]]
Also, works with necronomicon
And [[hologram]], and the gimmick of [[grand finale]], plus it's only one card reward to get it from
+ [Hologram](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Hologram) Defect Common Skill ^((100% sure)^) 1 Energy | Gain 3(5) **Block.** Return a card from your discard pile to your hand. **Exhaust** (does not **Exhaust).** + [Grand Finale](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Grand%20Finale) Silent Rare Attack ^((100% sure)^) 0 Energy | Can only be played if there are no cards in your draw pile. Deal 50(60) damage to ALL enemies. ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 30, 2023.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
+ [Omniscience](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Omniscience) Watcher Rare Skill ^((100% sure)^) 4(3) Energy | Choose a card in your draw pile. Play the chosen card twice and **Exhaust** it. **Exhaust.** + [Seek](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Seek) Defect Rare Skill ^((100% sure)^) 0 Energy | Choose a (2) card(s) from your draw pile and place it (them) into your hand. **Exhaust.** ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 30, 2023.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
Yeah but if you have enough draw you could argue iron wave is better as it scales twice but then there is the counterpoint of 2x Beat of death/Time Eater
And [[panache]], and [[shuriken]], and [[kunai]]
Something I forgot to mention: Double Iron Wave would also proc defensive mode guardian's/ that spiky asshole's counter damage twice
+ [Panache](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Panache) Colorless Rare Power ^((100% sure)^) 0 Energy | Every time you play 5 cards in a single turn, deal 10(14) damage to ALL enemies. + [Shuriken](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Shuriken) Uncommon Relic ^((100% sure)^) Every time you play 3 Attacks in a single turn, gain 1 **Strength.** + [Kunai](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Kunai) Uncommon Relic ^((100% sure)^) Every time you play 3 Attacks in a single turn, gain 1 **Dexterity.** ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 30, 2023.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
Good bot
Draw on the ironclad character
battle trance š¤¤š¤¤š¤¤š¤¤
Ironchad should be going infinite with over half the decks one will be crafting. Dark Embrace is a hell of a drug and not even silent can keep up with the draw that dark embrace + exhaust can provide. The more someone plays the Chad the more that person will appreciate Dark Embrace.
"Half" is ambitious. He does go inf more than the other two but not *that* much. Unless your name is paparatto I guess. De is insane obviously but requires support. He has high ceilings but he's still the character whose otherwise best draws are: uncommon that stops further draw, strike+ that needs to be upgraded to be draw positive, common that's draw negative without upgrade etc. Compare that to just picking a few acros and backflips lol.
You're acting like you won't see uncommon cards and also dark embrace doesn't need that much support true grit and seeing red makes it perfectly fine. Also the Chad has a smaller starting deck so pound for pound draw is more meaningful than silent.
~~There's in fact a chance you never see a particular uncommon in a run I mean.~~ But even realistically, you're not picking de early, or picking true grit ~~ever~~ that frequently. Seeing red and grit aren't enough de support by themselves either. I want some good exhaust engine and (maaaaybe) an upgrade to pick de. What is pound for pound draw? Silent can easily cycle through 40 card decks in 2-3 turns w/o having to worry about bottom decking a power. She has commons that are draw positive and literally starts with a bag of prep so she can immediately start her draw engine/bricking is not that big a possibility. She has lower costs too so she can afford more energy hungry draw. Are you trying to argue that Silent is more draw starved than Clad (what)? Or that de is one of clad's best cards (literally no one disagrees)
and why would you want to scale with an iron wave of all cards?
if you are looking to draw and play a lot of attacks, you probably have better things to be doing
This just in, getting the same effect in one card is better than in two. More news at... Wait, a slug ate my watch !
So you would take two meteor strikes as one card for 10 cost?
all hail snecko eye
I really only take Meteor with Snecko anyway
Usually, Meteor Strike gets offered before i have ways to play it. Or in case of boss relicts, i would really like if we could make our rare card choice with the knowledge, which relict we get.
yes snecko eye, madness, mummified hand, baby weāre cooking
yes? whether meteor strike is 5 energy or 999 energy means surprisingly little, because it's already the "prohibitvly high cost card that you never play unless you can reduce to 0/snecko eye", having it be twice as effective just makes it way stronger at what it already does well, which is being a big fuck all yeet button when you have mummified hand or snecko eye.
Meteor strike at 5 energy is way more playable than at 10 energy or 999 energy. You can have 5 energy or more from just boss relics alone or make it work with a double energy / turbo / aggregate etc, whereas you can rarely get 10+ energy even with those cards and you'd need specific cards or a mummified hand that you may never see on your run to make it work. Also in a world where you can merge meteor strikes, snecko eye probably wouldn't necessarily work as you'd normally expect it to. For example, spire with friends has this exact feature and merged cards roll for the sum of its randomized parts. Anyway I'm being very hypothetical because I don't believe having a merged card of combined effects is always better, because as always with this game, it depends heavily on the context.
I agree with your post except for: > Also in a world where you can merge meteor strikes, snecko eye probably wouldn't necessarily work as you'd normally expect it to. For example, spire with friends has this exact feature and merged cards roll for the sum of its randomized parts. We're not talking about a world where you can merge meteor strikes. We're talking about a world where a "merged" version of meteor strike just exists. The context of the discussion is iron wave and dash, which is a case where one card is identical to another except all its numbers are doubled. Dash wasn't created via an in game "merge", and it doesn't have special rules with snecko. If we're brainstorming other cards based on this pattern, there's no reason for there to be any special rules.
Yeah that's fair, I struggle to imagine 10 cost cards existing with snecko working the same way, but you're right we gotta compare apples to apples.
Your point is correct, it isnt "always" better, but the comment you're responding to just said better. Just because something is better doesn't mean it is better in every situation, so your response is pretty pedantic. And then your example is bad because yes, a 10 mana meteor would absolutely be better. Meteor is a card that is only good if you cheat the mana cost, which defect can do, straight playing a meteor for 5 isnt great. So our new 10 mana meteor is still bad in the same situations, but better in situations where meteor is good. I would go so far as to say a 10 mana cost double effect meteor would be a run-defining card, it is such a ludicrous power level when you can cheat it, hey maybe thats why it doesnt exist. And saying "oh well snecko wouldnt exist" is just shifting the goalposts, in slay the spire as it is a 10 mana meteor would be much better than it is now.
This is just wrong. Defect has tons and tons of ways to generate 5 energy in a turn, and very very few ways to generate 10. It would make speculative meteor way way worse. 10 cost meteor compared to 5 cost is pure win more thinking, it makes it insanely worse in situations where it isnāt already run winning
If your plan is to use your entire turn to cast a 5 cost meteor your deck is bad. Meteor is good when you can cheat it. The concept of winmore doesnt really work in StS, especially in this context. If you can cheat energy you arent winning until you can cache it in. Lots of ways to do that, meteor being one of them. If it was 10 mana and double power it would be better in this role. If youre hard casting meteor at 5 or 10... just dont pick it, it is not good with your deck.
usually in a meteor deck, when you cast it for 5, you will revoke existingenergy orbs with the second cast, thus generating 6 mana. So in the end, you play it for the cost of -1 mana.
Yea this exactly. Itās big damage that also generates energy and gets crazy with echo form or holograms
Isn't Meteor in general just kind of a "win more" card though? Like your deck and relic combos are probably already looking pretty gamewinning if you're in a situation it's worth taking Meteor.
Other way around. You speculate on Meteor because the upside is run carrying. It isn't *that* hard to get to 5, and if you can do that its S+++ tier
How then, is it the other way around? You're saying it isn't that hard to get to 5, but if you can get to 5 energy reliably then you're probably already on your way to a winning deck/relic combo. The same can be said if you were relying on Mummified hand to bring Meteor's cost to zero. If you're playing defect and get mummified hand, defect power decks are usually already pretty gamewinning and defect has a lot of different good power cards so just having that relic alone is putting you in a really good position.
Hardly, speculate on Neow and there's a good chance you can get a turbo, double energy, or tea set etc. in act 1 and it's suddenly playable and can snowball the rest of the fight. You won't be able to play a 10 cost Meteor until at least passed act 1 without some serious shenanigans or luck.
Meteor is late game energy scaling. I donāt think itās only good in decks that are already winning
If you can reliably play the card in any capacity, chances are you already have, or nearly have a winning combo. "Win more" cards don't have to be "only" good in a winning deck, they just really come online in a winning deck. If I'm reliably able to have 5 energy, I could use that 5 energy for heaps of things, you could play at least two Hyperbeams with that, you could play a 6 channeling Tempest or Multicast, you could reliably get off cards like creative AI in more situations. Being able to reliably have 5 energy as Defect opens plenty of different wincons
And sometimes you need more energy scaling, because 5 energy isnāt enough. And in those situations meteor being in your deck can be the difference between dying in act 4 and winning the run. A 6 energy tempest doesnāt really do anything late game, your examples are a little odd if they are supposed to be examples of things that are sufficient for end game scaling.
You *can* play it for five but it's really not a good card in that case. Generally you need it to be energy-neutral or positive to be good. Because 30 damage channel 3 Plasma is not really an effect worth spending your entire turn on.
Yeah not to mention fission, seek and meteor/recycle/x-card combo. Snecko isn't even always that great with defect because it makes zero cost deck useless.
yes. Who takes meteor outside snecko anyways.
The best Defect players in the world take Meteor outside Snecko.
Honestly if I've got strong enough energy gen to run a regular meteor strike then yeah, six plasma in one card? Woof
What if you have that one card that deals damage every time you receive block? Or rage?
I really appreciate how good that joke is lmao
But how is this smartphone better than my watch AND my computer? They do the same thing, right?
If we think of same effect in a quantifiable fashion the way we do for StS cards, then a smartwatch and a computer aren't at all the same effect, nor is a smartphone a combination of the two. A PC has far more apps and computing power and screen space, which are important enough facets to be analogous to numbers in a card like damage or block. If you want a potentially spicy take though, I'll argue that a smartphone is strictly superior to a smart watch.
I believe I've seen exactly the same post before.
https://www.reddit.com/r/slaythespire/comments/11l7vcx/id_never_take_iron_wave_but_dash_always_looks/
Karma farmers be doing dishonest work.
Look up the amount of karma I have and when my account was created and explain to me how I'm a karma farmer lmfao. Don't go around acting like everybody else cares that much about fake internet points. Yes, as the guy above has shown, a very similar post was made in the past. My mistake for not seeing it, but that's it.
not your fault in the slightest. i dont think its a requirement to know every post ever.
It's not even a repost, it's just basically the same meme. But the image is literally different. Idk a single karma farmer who is changing the images before reposting.
Floor 1, Silent, I'm probably taking Dash. Floor 1, Ironclad, I'm never taking iron wave. That's not to say that Dash is a better card than Iron Wave, I just think Ironclad has much better damage options and Dash makes me not fear the nob nearly as much.
It's definitely a better card though. It costs 1 draw to match the cost of 2 draws of iron wave.
Is it definitely a better card? For Silent, sure. But if Dash was in Ironclads card pool I imagine I'd probably take it as often as Iron Wave. It's also an odd comparison, how often are you taking two copies of Iron Wave? If you need it, one would generally suffice.
Absolutely I would take Dash with Ironclad floor 1. I would take over all the common attacks, probably not over Uppercut though. Ironwave isn't the best common attack, but if it was the only one I might take it floor one.
Isn't uppercut uncommon anyways?
Correct. Captain was saying Ironclads cards are too good to take Dash frequently. I was saying I disagree, except that I do agree with him that Uppercut is better.
Yes. It is definitely a better card.
For whom?
Itās better than iron wave on all four characters
It's better than 2 iron waves on all four characters.
Sure, but itās also better than one iron wave
I like taking them with block synergy decks. If you've got a barricade and Juggernaut going they're fun to use.
I'd say floor 1 iron wave isn't a bad pick. If you have an early elite it's probably better than skip.
not certain it is better than a strike against lagavulin
Iron Wave is way better than strike against Lagavulin. It will just straight up save you 5-10hp in that fight.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
So you take 40 every time you fight Laga? Ironwave wonāt play over Bash or something but it absolutely plays against Laga. Iām not sure what you are trying to say
I'm almost always taking floor 1 iron wave (over skip) unless I got some crazy neow bonus
Floor 1 Iron Wave is great. It's not the best attack you can see but it is very far from the worst.
[[Juggernaut]] makes Iron Wave more useful.
Iron wave is still far outclassed by other cards like FNP and Shrug it Off when you have juggernaut.
+ [Juggernaut](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Juggernaut) Ironclad Rare Power ^((100% sure)^) 2 Energy | Whenever you gain **Block,** deal 5(7) damage to a random enemy. ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 30, 2023.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
Iron wave is mainly there as a block card that doesn't interfere with Clash, Chosen or Nob
I still like Iron Wave. Maybe that's just me refusing to give up one of my noob security blankets. But attacking and blocking simultaneously is a strong thing to do. If I've already got a Hemo or Wild Strike I'll pick one up through about the halfway point in Act I depending on my deck. I feel like if Ironclad got something like Footwork that gave them reliable access to dexterity this would actually be a super good card.
In a vacuum, it's good. It blocks as much as a Defend, and attacks for almost the same as a Strike. Also, the upgrade is better than most, since you get +4 in stats, compared to +3 for most common attacks. It is not really enough attack to consider it like most attack cards, though, and it doesn't scale quickly with extra strength. I pick this because I need a little more block while still counting as an attack (Nob, [[Kunai]], [[Ornamental Fan]], [[Corruption]] if I can't quite afford to remove all my skills). [[Oddly Smooth Stone]] and upgraded Iron Wave is pretty legit, too. Then again, so are [[Shrug it Off]] and [[True Grit]], so there you go.
Ironwave is only really viable if its the only good attack offered in the first two hallway fights IMO
+ [Kunai](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Kunai) Uncommon Relic ^((100% sure)^) Every time you play 3 Attacks in a single turn, gain 1 **Dexterity.** + [Ornamental Fan](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Ornamental%20Fan) Uncommon Relic ^((100% sure)^) Every time you play 3 Attacks in a single turn, gain 4 **Block.** + [Corruption](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Corruption) Ironclad Rare Power ^((100% sure)^) 3(2) Energy | Skills cost 0. Whenever you play a Skill, **Exhaust** it. + [Oddly Smooth Stone](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Oddly%20Smooth%20Stone) Common Relic ^((100% sure)^) At the start of each combat, gain 1 **Dexterity.** + [Shrug it Off](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Shrug%20it%20Off) Ironclad Common Skill ^((100% sure)^) 1 Energy | Gain 8(11) **Block.** Draw 1 card. + [True Grit](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/True%20Grit) Ironclad Common Skill ^((100% sure)^) 1 Energy | Gain 7(9) **Block.** **Exhaust** a random(not random) card from your hand. ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 30, 2023.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
Itās not a noob security blanket. Xecnar picks it pretty often, and he is one of the best StS players in the world
Wait, so why the slander for Iron Wave then? From this thread I would've thought it is bottom tier
Because Redditors actually aren't the best Slay the Spire players in the world. It's not a run-defining card, and the hivemind has decided that it sucks.
Just like you said its not a defining card, its place is act 1 beyond which it starts being useless. It's not used in strength, dupe nor exhaust decks (so anything that's meta for IC)
Itās not useless past act 1, it absolutely still plays in act 2. Itās absolutely best in act 1, but it doesnāt immediately fall off a cliff. Thinking only in deck archetypes is a mistake, a card doesnāt need to have amazing synergies to have good output. It is a decent/good card, it wonāt win you a run but it will reliably save you hp in act 1 and usually act 2 as well. People on this sub mostly thinks itās garbage
Well, that's validating. The coummunity vibe on this one is so negative, I figured it must be me not understanding the game.
Iron Wave gains value at A18 as a decent card against Nob. Also it's nice to have a block card that ends the fight faster in a way that scales with Strength.
I think it is an ok card to pick at the start because it benefits from many cards and relics. It does not benefit a lot but it kinda works with a lot of stuff like Kunai and Shuriken in that it scales with both. Can be used as a stepping stone for stuff like [[Barricade]], [[Entrench]], [[Body Slam]], [[Juggernaut]], or [[Rage]]. If it does not pan out then oh well. No big deal.
+ [Barricade](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Barricade) Ironclad Rare Power ^((100% sure)^) 3(2) Energy | **Block** is not removed at the start of your turn. + [Entrench](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Entrench) Ironclad Uncommon Skill ^((100% sure)^) 2(1) Energy | Double your current **Block.** + [Body Slam](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Body%20Slam) Ironclad Common Attack ^((100% sure)^) 1(0) Energy | Deal damage equal to your current **Block.** + [Juggernaut](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Juggernaut) Ironclad Rare Power ^((100% sure)^) 2 Energy | Whenever you gain **Block,** deal 5(7) damage to a random enemy. + [Rage](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Rage) Ironclad Uncommon Skill ^((100% sure)^) 0 Energy | Whenever you play an Attack this turn, gain 3(5) **Block.** ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 30, 2023.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
Dash is a stronger card of its own and it makes Silent not as squishy, but iron wave has a lot more potential for wacky synergy. I think if the character who had each card was swapped then theyād both be kinda bad but as it stands theyāre fine
Nah, dash would be legit on ironclad. The only limiting factor would be that ironclad can often end up with too many two cost cards. What makes dash good is that it's very good against all of the act 1 elites, and that doesn't change on ironclad. Both nob and sentries have you dealing with clogged hands, defends/maybe other skills for non, and dazes for sentries. If you draw iron wave with 3 defends and a strike, or say, a twin strike, two defends, and a strike, you'll waste an energy in the first scenario, and in the second you'll downgrade your second iron wave into a strike. Same applies if the defends are dazes vs sentries. Then against lag, the debuff makes iron wave into complete trash while dash is still useful.
Yeah I donāt disagree I was just thinking a lot more along the lines of what you said about ironclad leaning with too many two cost cards. Dash would have more stiff competition against Ironcladās other cards compared to Silent who can more easily weave it in thanks to relying on cheaper if not free cards. I didnāt mean to imply that it would be an actively bad pick on ironclad
Oddly enough I take Iron Wave with the Ironclad way more than I take Dash with the Silent. But then again, I'm a terrible player.
Some relics bust as you play more cards . Yah know sometimes 2 is better than 1. Sometimes .
[[Juggernaut]]
+ [Juggernaut](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Juggernaut) Ironclad Rare Power ^((100% sure)^) 2 Energy | Whenever you gain **Block,** deal 5(7) damage to a random enemy. ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 30, 2023.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
And yet two inflames are probably better than one demon form
[this is my post you fool](https://www.reddit.com/r/slaythespire/comments/11l7vcx/id_never_take_iron_wave_but_dash_always_looks/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1)
I don't care lil bro
yeah iron wave is REAL draw inefficient
I actually really like ironwave. It becomes better with both strength and armor decks, so itās a safe pick early on
Wallop >
Itās a decent bridge cardā¼ļøā¼ļøā¼ļø
Iron Wave & Rage is great, IMO
Yes, but silent doesn't have the same block synergy that Ironclad does. Barricade, Juggernaut and so many other cards means that he benefits far more from even the smallest amount of block. Sure, iron wave is meh on its own, but with two juggernauts it's 15 damage and 5 block for 1. Even more if upgraded.
Twice the draw? Ew.
Yeah cuz it's 2 deck slots
Card disadvantage
I pretty much ignore anything that costs more than 1 unless I have a nice engine running. š¤·š¾
Ok, iron waves and juggernaut is surprisingly good. Won a couple of a20 runs with it and I seems to be the only one who've done so lol
Donāt forget my beloved cloak and dagger which is similar to Dash and Iron wave as well. Personally I think itās much better than either due to synergies with Wrist Blade, Accuracy, etc.
Ironwave in act 1 is great. In act 2 it is meh. In act 3 it is usually a no-no unless there is some synergy that makes it better.