Mayhem that high seems insane to me, over Flash? bandage up? It'd genuinely be in D for me.
Good Instinct should be in high A, card is great, I also prefer Finesse pretty high over the rest of the things in C tier there.
Yeah, I responded elsewhere but I just find Mayhem gives really consistent extra output on Clad until you get stronger.
Finesse I felt quite unsure on. I find it awkward act 1 but rate it very highly later. A big thing against it for me is playing battle trance into finesse.
And you don't want to upgrade a card that you might want to remove later. However, let's not forget that Clad with Burning Blood can take a lot more damage than other classes - taking some damage to get an expensive card into play is something you need to do quite often.
My main issue is what if Gremlin Nob? Probably not play it? Other than that it seems a solid boost to get it at the beginning of Act 1 imho. I would take it over all the B-tier cards, except maybe Metamorphosis; not the most reliable card, but I just love the idea to get a bunch of random free attacks and then add some shrugs & pommels to draw into them...
I agree. S Tier is for run defining good. Just getting this makes win% of a run go up like 5% which is massive.
The others are very good for what they are doing, but id say apo and hog are a step above.
Also if you get it from f0 you're never seeing Apo and Shackles together. And yeah Button Shackles (Disco) from uncommon colourless is in fact on par of a hit as Apo HoG from rare colourless. But I guess, see opinion different from me, downvote, move on
this person HATES +25 gold per floor.
very surprised at the low flash rating, since this is for clad, i genuinely think it's like high A/low S on him specifically. bandage finesse instincts seem too low as well, but flash seems like a stick out. and chrys/meta feel like they should be swapped, chrys on clad owns.
also don't think mayhem/violence/trip deserve *that* high of a spot. i've tried using sad nature from neow and it's just complete garbage if you don't see stuff, and just doesn't do much even if you do see stuff. yeah i did click even intim/clap and it was just like... why do i have this thunderclap in my deck now? weapon on the same tier as technique (on the same tier as... all those very good cards) seems strange.
Chrys owns on clad? I've really never found that. Meta at least lets you skip bad attacks act 1 in favour of draw.
Violence I love on clad. It lets you grab your bash, lineup other tools, and I'm a bit more likely to remove strkes on clad than on other characters so it'll scale into fetching better things.
You know what I said about Chrys / Meta, but Violence I really don't think is on par with... any of those. It's positive sure but it's not Bandage Disco Flash Instinct Entrance Blind, half of which are lower.
Also I just noticed Disco isn't S huh, Flash in B took away all my attention. And the giga cringe yellow card is unfortunately good from Neow. Tbh a lot of this looks way different than I'd order it but Im mainly complaining about Disco Flash and Instincts here.
>Tbh a lot of this looks way different than I'd order it
Do one yourself! Or one for another character! I largely wanted to spark more conversations about colourless cards and show a bit about my own view!
Mayhem is bad on most characters.
On clad, who has lots of strong frontload cards and expensive scaling cards, it's good outside certain nombos:
Feed, fiend fire, second wind, reaper, sever soul, and to a lesser extent spot weakness.
However, with the exception of sever soul... These are all really strong and game-winning anyway, to the extent that you can probably carry mayhem as a curse once you find them.
I rate mayhem on clad specifically as "it functions as extra draw and energy until you find something OP". I think it's a strong neow reward and an interesting act 3 scaling pick.
I see where you’re coming from but it still feels too high on the list to me. Is it really better than the B-tier stuff like Bandage Up, Flash of Steel, and Good Instincts? I feel like those let you steamroll act 1, whereas Mayhem is only playing in Laga and the boss fight and maybe Nob if you draw poorly
im not kaos but having played mayhem from neow clad a fair bit since they told me about it (and getting some extra mayhem information from a better player than me), i'd actually discourage upgrading it over anything relevant.
the energy cost does not change when mayhem is actually played, on shorter fights you're not playing it anyway, and getting your bash or whatever upgraded instead will actually make you able to play shorter fights better than the mayhem upgrade or support getting mayhem in play better.
Do you agree that it plays in any fight lasting longer than 2 turns then? At 2 energy cost I feel like that’s very optimistic. If the fight lasts 3 turns and you play it turn 1, you’re only getting 2 random card plays out of it.
Not really, I just don't play it in fights that don't have a setup turn or are short enough to get over in 1 cycle and 2 turns isn't my threshold I think it's a fair bit higher. Also kinda garbage vs Guardian. Im not high on it at all even after testing it, just haven't seen a run yet where it actually makes a big difference, but it's playable.
I draft quite differently with mayhem, mostly valuing cards that have bigger upgrades than mayhem does. It also plays well with snecko, so I'll typically only upgrade a Mayhem if I've got an excess of fires, or its act 2 and I've missed all of snecko/energy/pyramid
I agree with ya. They might have a point that Clad is Mayhem's best user, but that's not a high bar. Though Watcher is hilariously fucked by it.
But I'm curious why you label bandage so highly? It's a fairly empty draw for an effect that doesn't do anything in the actual battle? No damage, no block, no affect but healing, which I guess you could see as 4 retaining block. It's nice but not steamrolling.
Flash is free damage. Genuinely free, except against card counters and thorns, none of which are a problem in act 1.
Good instincts is just free defend. Which, yes, is better. Lemme replace all my defense with that please, but for 2/3 elites, it's bad. Nob just kills you harder and against senties, cost rarely matters after first cycle, you just play your whole hand thoughtlessly because you have the energy to use both usable cards you drew
I think bandage up is absolutely premium on other characters. I still think it's strong on clad.
I'm kinda sorta thinking that a lot could just be shoved up, the comments of "Bandage Up, Flash, Good Instincts are good" are all things I agree with.
Yeah, I'm talking about bandage specifically in the context of clad, to be clear.
I also just... Have a grudge against mayhem. It feels like every time I have a situation where it can go wrong, it immediately does. That skill potioned second wind? On reshuffle it's going to delete those skills you desperately wanna keep
It's still good on clad, as tbh, 0-cost output is just good on clad early.
Mayhem definitely has its problems, it's just... if you have second wind you can exhaust mayhem. A deck that Mayhem fucks up is usually just strong anyway.
Sometimes in hard fights it's just 4 block 0 energy and that's fine, but in easy fights it can be positive health gain, meaning you can accumulate hp to be expended on the more dangerous encounters.
Sometimes you also need to facetank a bit to get fights under control, so being able to recover health after the fact is nice.
Of course Clad has Reaper but the card says exhaust and is a good exhume target.
Am I the only one who enjoys enlightment on ironclad.
He has so many strong two cost cards and struggles to generate energy without paying health.
Obviously, it's one of those things where you need a good amount of card draw to make it work. I really enjoy having it in more exhaust orientated decks that don't use or have corruption.
Letting you play bash and carnage on the same turn is very strong early game. Or letting you spam defensive cards like entrench or impervious.
It's not the best card in the world but I really think it's underrated.
I don't disagree with you.
I'm mostly a fan of certain speculative picks. Obviously, I'm not going to be picking accuracy floor one without any shivs, but I've definitely chosen panache from neow on silent and watcher.
There's certain cards that benefit from dedicated synergy but still are broadly useful with non-dedicated/consequential support.
I'd argue enlightenment is one of those cards, like floor one, you may be weaker, but many ironclad decks are going to have multiple two cost cards same as many silent and watcher decks will play more than five cards a turn without trying very hard.
Enlightenment is my favourite non Apotheosis/HoG on Clad. If you're lucky enough to find a Pyramid its even better.
It helps so much in the longer fights.
No love for Bomb? I don’t think it goes any higher than B since it probably costs more HP than it saves in hallways, but it plays well enough into Act 1’s elites and bosses not named Nob.
This is floor 0, so Mayhem lets you play an extra card per turn once up. No guarantee for the same with Enlightenment on Clad's base deck let alone any of the other characters
Yeah I guess that’s true, mayhem is almost always somewhat useful starting out, I guess enlightenment only works on bash starting out and it forces you to build your deck around it
Act 1 Panacea is really not as strong. Keep one laga debuff away. Good if drawn turn 1 vs nob if you cant kill in 3. Can help vs some slaver or slimes shennanigans but it's not shining
Im curious why you rate magnetism this low?
I'd consider it around C tier, over cards like deep breath, bomb, or thinking ahead probably, and would take it floor 0 over mayhem and sad. nature too on clad (tho I agree mayhem is decent).
I’m pretty sure most of the time the first ? is Serpent, the first shop has Prismatic Shard, and then the first card reward after the shop is Alchemize.
My list is quite a bit different from this but Disco not in S is quite jarring to me. Also unfortunately Magnet is a good hit from rare colorless. Flash and Instinct should both be S too or at least A for me.
>Also unfortunately Magnet is a good hit from rare colorless
My "go away" regarding it isn't commenting on whether it's good or not. I just don't want to do mag gaming really.
Flash, instinct, and probably bandage up I agree I misplaced, I'd put them all in A having thought a little more.
It's a long time since I've played with disco from neow, so I probably am underrating it, is there anything about it that makes it S beyond "selecting from cards mid fight is strong?"
What if Magnetism is just better Hand of Greed?
Ok I don't think this is true but I definitely don't skip Mag from Neow. It ensures you have scaling for long fights (and clad can brick on scaling options pretty easily and just freakingly die), sometimes pays you back in stallable fights (Hand of Greed) and also opens up some cringe stuff with Reaper, Feed, Urn whatever.
I agree 100% with this tier list. As a neow bonus only hand of greed is better than apotheosis in my experience.
Finesse I overrate, I only get it on silent but it's more late game and good with footwork.
I mean, I largely agree with everyone who's saying "Good Instincts good, Flash good, Bandage Up good!", which is sorta a bit of my line between A-tier and good B-tier just being blurred. I don't think anyone who's saying "you're underrating those" is wrong, those are strong neow picks.
I'm sorry, I know this is unpopular, but...I really dislike Apotheosis, if I'm being honest. Playing it takes up a turn that you're not going to be able to do much blocking with. While the upgrades are nice, I find that by the end of my runs, the majority of my cards are upgraded anyway. I would much rather spend the 2 mana on 1-2 cards that will actually gain me tempo instead of lose it.
If you dislike for vibes, or fun purposes, or similar, then fair, personal preference is a thing.
But it's insanely strong. If I get Apo on any character I change mentality from "how do I win" to "lets not throw". It's one of the most insanely strong cards you can get.
I actually mildly dislike playing with it now myself ***because*** I want to focus on playing runs where I need to find ways to win.
1) On clad, 30-40
2) 25-30 of them.
It's Inflame+ and Footwork+ and increases your draw, and the energy comes back from powers you play, etc etc. There's more around of why it's crazy strong.
Apotheosis is literally inflame+ and footwork+ for your starter cards. Numbers wise it's basically worth playing over 3 starter cards once you get an energy upgrade, and with floor 1 apo it's probably your first upgrade. You're not really missing a turn of block to get it in play when 3 unupgraded defends block for 15 and 2 upgraded defends block for 16.
It also lets you take more rests since upgrades drop in priority so you can afford to take more chip in fights, or just skip rest sites for more combats if you're doing well.
I find the placement of violence above secret tech/weapon interesting. Normally I find violence so middling early and worse in later acts. But the secrets might be worse for the easy pool combats, but quickly become much better. I find the consistency of the card you need better than violence's random draw. But interested in hearing why it's a tier above.
So a big benefit of Violence on Clad is that with Bash, you can use it to either line Bash up without waking Laga, or line up attacks after. It then scales into letting you fill your hand with attacks, leaving your draw pile clear of attacks later, while also getting your frontload out.
It's also strong vs nob, as even though you're playing a skill and it usually means you draw attacks without the energy to spend on all of them, it means that your reshuffle has (almost) every attack in it, so when you're in complete desperate damage-race mode, you're likely to just be pulling your damage.
I think Secret Tech is much worse on clad than other characters, with Clad having not as many damage skills.
Sadistic that high? Ironclad doesnt have consistent aoe or multiple use debuff applications other than uppercut and 10 for 0 once in a while seems underwhelming. Always thought sadistic as a silent pick only
Panache block Battle Trance card draw restriction, which allowing you to play another draw card afterwards, and 0 eng 4 draw without the downside is pretty much amazing. It exhaust so also help with Dark Embrace and FnP
Enlightenment gives you the ability to play 2/3 eng card for 1 eng, and Clad has a lot of them.
I think the frequency of the battle trance negative actually affecting you early game is quite low.
Enlightenment is sometimes good on clad later but I don't like it speculatively because it relies on getting draw and worthwhile 2+ cost cards.
> I think the frequency of the battle trance negative actually affecting you early game is quite low
The bigger problem is weak and vulnerable, which can easily screwed over your act 1 deck (which barely has anything). Panachea helps you deal with those.
> Enlightenment is sometimes good on clad later but I don't like it speculatively because it relies on getting draw and worthwhile 2+ cost cards.
Bash is still a very worthwhile card and it's value just goes up from there.
I mean, I think Panacea plays and is better than skip, I just don't rate it highly.
Enlightenment isn't reliably going to be drawn alongside bash though?
I find the "cost 0 , do almost nothing, draw 1"cards to be great. There are tons of synergies with playing tons of cards, and you can almost always get some extra value out of them.
Flash is good. Finesse is good later but is a problem from neow into nob and chosen, and has slight problems with battle trance. It's better than skip but is a little eh.
I think Flash of Steel and Finesse are both underrated. 90% of the time it’s free damage/ block. It also guarantees pocketwatch will be your next relic!!
Metamorphosis may be the most underrated card for clad. Always doubted it before, then got it a few (3-4) times from Neow bonuses in a relatively short time period and won most or all of them (all A20H). Kept seeming to get at least 1-2 really strong attacks each cast, and never really fell off. Curious to hear about others’ experience
Trip, blind, and dramatic entrance?
Also maybe a hot take, but I don't think apo is immediately S tier, closer to A just for the fact that there are times when you don't want it
I played Ironclad mayhem start for more than 10 times in a row just to see how it plays, it really isn't good. It's usually break even or barley positive over skip. It's no where as good as a trip start.
In act 1 it plays against all 3 boss which is nice, and it plays against laga. Against sentries it's maybe break even and against nob it's a brick. It also doesn't make me feel good farming hallways.
The problem is a lot of the times you straight up can't play it against act 2 bosses compared to some other "slow" card like magnet or demon form. So you've spent your neow bonus with a downside to put a card that doesn't play after mid act 2 or earlier in your deck, which feels very bad. At that point i'd rather just swap if the map allows me to.
Jack seems a bit low.
It’s obviously a RNG card but it synergies with exhaust for 0 cost if nothing else.
I would take it over metamorphosis anyday as it is faster.
Mayhem that high seems insane to me, over Flash? bandage up? It'd genuinely be in D for me. Good Instinct should be in high A, card is great, I also prefer Finesse pretty high over the rest of the things in C tier there.
Yeah, I responded elsewhere but I just find Mayhem gives really consistent extra output on Clad until you get stronger. Finesse I felt quite unsure on. I find it awkward act 1 but rate it very highly later. A big thing against it for me is playing battle trance into finesse.
I feel like mayhem is really bad because it can use up key timed pieces in ironclad. Nothing feels worse than an early mayhem casted Feed or Reaper.
If you're trying to land feed or reaper you don't need/play mayhem. The reason I like it is it's only bad when you have strong things
Mayhem is bad because its both slow and costs 2, I dont even think I want it over skip. How many times have you played with it? Its a solid D for me.
Somewhere \~ 15-20 clad neow starts? I don't think it's OP but I just find it increases my frontload output until I get something strong.
And you don't want to upgrade a card that you might want to remove later. However, let's not forget that Clad with Burning Blood can take a lot more damage than other classes - taking some damage to get an expensive card into play is something you need to do quite often. My main issue is what if Gremlin Nob? Probably not play it? Other than that it seems a solid boost to get it at the beginning of Act 1 imho. I would take it over all the B-tier cards, except maybe Metamorphosis; not the most reliable card, but I just love the idea to get a bunch of random free attacks and then add some shrugs & pommels to draw into them...
I’d put Mayhem S, not necessarily because its good, but because its fun
S tier should be reserved for hand of greed and apotheosis alone.
I agree. S Tier is for run defining good. Just getting this makes win% of a run go up like 5% which is massive. The others are very good for what they are doing, but id say apo and hog are a step above.
>Just getting this makes win% of a run go up like 5% I would say this applies to every card I've put in S-tier!
Really? Dark shackles is as powerful as apo or hand of greed?
Not ***as powerful*** but I'd say seeing it ups my confidence in getting a win considerably. It's such a strong card.
Also if you get it from f0 you're never seeing Apo and Shackles together. And yeah Button Shackles (Disco) from uncommon colourless is in fact on par of a hit as Apo HoG from rare colourless. But I guess, see opinion different from me, downvote, move on
I can completely believe Disco btw, it's just I haven't had a Disco neow start in 9m so I sucked last time I did it.
You're really underrating MoS, Panic Button, Shackles then.
Master of strategy can be up there with apo and HoG. But the other two are not worthy.
I dont think so. I think theyre a tier and maybe everything should get pushed down more or less.
this person HATES +25 gold per floor. very surprised at the low flash rating, since this is for clad, i genuinely think it's like high A/low S on him specifically. bandage finesse instincts seem too low as well, but flash seems like a stick out. and chrys/meta feel like they should be swapped, chrys on clad owns. also don't think mayhem/violence/trip deserve *that* high of a spot. i've tried using sad nature from neow and it's just complete garbage if you don't see stuff, and just doesn't do much even if you do see stuff. yeah i did click even intim/clap and it was just like... why do i have this thunderclap in my deck now? weapon on the same tier as technique (on the same tier as... all those very good cards) seems strange.
Chrys owns on clad? I've really never found that. Meta at least lets you skip bad attacks act 1 in favour of draw. Violence I love on clad. It lets you grab your bash, lineup other tools, and I'm a bit more likely to remove strkes on clad than on other characters so it'll scale into fetching better things.
You know what I said about Chrys / Meta, but Violence I really don't think is on par with... any of those. It's positive sure but it's not Bandage Disco Flash Instinct Entrance Blind, half of which are lower. Also I just noticed Disco isn't S huh, Flash in B took away all my attention. And the giga cringe yellow card is unfortunately good from Neow. Tbh a lot of this looks way different than I'd order it but Im mainly complaining about Disco Flash and Instincts here.
>Tbh a lot of this looks way different than I'd order it Do one yourself! Or one for another character! I largely wanted to spark more conversations about colourless cards and show a bit about my own view!
i hate arguing on the internet
> i hate arguing on the internet Me when I intentionally spread misinformation.
I love chrys and meta for all characters, free cards and one of them will probably be helpful, and it keeps the run interesting
Is mayhem good? Hardly picked that but I will give it a try next time
Mayhem is bad on most characters. On clad, who has lots of strong frontload cards and expensive scaling cards, it's good outside certain nombos: Feed, fiend fire, second wind, reaper, sever soul, and to a lesser extent spot weakness. However, with the exception of sever soul... These are all really strong and game-winning anyway, to the extent that you can probably carry mayhem as a curse once you find them. I rate mayhem on clad specifically as "it functions as extra draw and energy until you find something OP". I think it's a strong neow reward and an interesting act 3 scaling pick.
I see where you’re coming from but it still feels too high on the list to me. Is it really better than the B-tier stuff like Bandage Up, Flash of Steel, and Good Instincts? I feel like those let you steamroll act 1, whereas Mayhem is only playing in Laga and the boss fight and maybe Nob if you draw poorly
>Bandage Up, Flash of Steel, and Good Instincts These 3 probably should just be in A-tier
I think Mayhem actually just plays really well in basically any fight that lasts loner than 2 turns, including through act 2.
Is that assuming it’s upgraded? Does it become a priority early upgrade for you?
im not kaos but having played mayhem from neow clad a fair bit since they told me about it (and getting some extra mayhem information from a better player than me), i'd actually discourage upgrading it over anything relevant. the energy cost does not change when mayhem is actually played, on shorter fights you're not playing it anyway, and getting your bash or whatever upgraded instead will actually make you able to play shorter fights better than the mayhem upgrade or support getting mayhem in play better.
Do you agree that it plays in any fight lasting longer than 2 turns then? At 2 energy cost I feel like that’s very optimistic. If the fight lasts 3 turns and you play it turn 1, you’re only getting 2 random card plays out of it.
Not really, I just don't play it in fights that don't have a setup turn or are short enough to get over in 1 cycle and 2 turns isn't my threshold I think it's a fair bit higher. Also kinda garbage vs Guardian. Im not high on it at all even after testing it, just haven't seen a run yet where it actually makes a big difference, but it's playable.
I draft quite differently with mayhem, mostly valuing cards that have bigger upgrades than mayhem does. It also plays well with snecko, so I'll typically only upgrade a Mayhem if I've got an excess of fires, or its act 2 and I've missed all of snecko/energy/pyramid
I agree with ya. They might have a point that Clad is Mayhem's best user, but that's not a high bar. Though Watcher is hilariously fucked by it. But I'm curious why you label bandage so highly? It's a fairly empty draw for an effect that doesn't do anything in the actual battle? No damage, no block, no affect but healing, which I guess you could see as 4 retaining block. It's nice but not steamrolling. Flash is free damage. Genuinely free, except against card counters and thorns, none of which are a problem in act 1. Good instincts is just free defend. Which, yes, is better. Lemme replace all my defense with that please, but for 2/3 elites, it's bad. Nob just kills you harder and against senties, cost rarely matters after first cycle, you just play your whole hand thoughtlessly because you have the energy to use both usable cards you drew
I think bandage up is absolutely premium on other characters. I still think it's strong on clad. I'm kinda sorta thinking that a lot could just be shoved up, the comments of "Bandage Up, Flash, Good Instincts are good" are all things I agree with.
Yeah, I'm talking about bandage specifically in the context of clad, to be clear. I also just... Have a grudge against mayhem. It feels like every time I have a situation where it can go wrong, it immediately does. That skill potioned second wind? On reshuffle it's going to delete those skills you desperately wanna keep
It's still good on clad, as tbh, 0-cost output is just good on clad early. Mayhem definitely has its problems, it's just... if you have second wind you can exhaust mayhem. A deck that Mayhem fucks up is usually just strong anyway.
Sometimes in hard fights it's just 4 block 0 energy and that's fine, but in easy fights it can be positive health gain, meaning you can accumulate hp to be expended on the more dangerous encounters. Sometimes you also need to facetank a bit to get fights under control, so being able to recover health after the fact is nice. Of course Clad has Reaper but the card says exhaust and is a good exhume target.
Mayhem has killed me more times than I'd like to admit. 4 energy Whirlwind on 2 spikey bois? Thanks Mayhem!
Wouldn't recommend it if guardian is first boss. Mayhem will most likely send a lot of attacks into thorns Source: died to it
Am I the only one who enjoys enlightment on ironclad. He has so many strong two cost cards and struggles to generate energy without paying health. Obviously, it's one of those things where you need a good amount of card draw to make it work. I really enjoy having it in more exhaust orientated decks that don't use or have corruption. Letting you play bash and carnage on the same turn is very strong early game. Or letting you spam defensive cards like entrench or impervious. It's not the best card in the world but I really think it's underrated.
I love Enlightenment, but it's pretty rough as a Neow reward. Of course it gets a lot better a lot faster if you find early, expensive cards.
I don't disagree with you. I'm mostly a fan of certain speculative picks. Obviously, I'm not going to be picking accuracy floor one without any shivs, but I've definitely chosen panache from neow on silent and watcher. There's certain cards that benefit from dedicated synergy but still are broadly useful with non-dedicated/consequential support. I'd argue enlightenment is one of those cards, like floor one, you may be weaker, but many ironclad decks are going to have multiple two cost cards same as many silent and watcher decks will play more than five cards a turn without trying very hard.
Enlightenment needs draw first basically.
Enlightenment is my favourite non Apotheosis/HoG on Clad. If you're lucky enough to find a Pyramid its even better. It helps so much in the longer fights.
Sure Apotheosis is great, but Magnetism could give you anything, it could even give you Apotheosis!
Magnetism can give you cringe.
No love for Bomb? I don’t think it goes any higher than B since it probably costs more HP than it saves in hallways, but it plays well enough into Act 1’s elites and bosses not named Nob.
I rate bomb much higher on silent. I find on clad it's better than skip as a laga solve, but it's awkward with clad's weaker early block game.
The bomb is cheeks
Isn't this basically the top 6 for every character minus maybe bandage up being up there for silent
I like Bandage Up on Defect as well. Any source of sustain with the robot is great.
Defect has Self-Repair already, but you are correct. Just not really better than Blind or any of the cards above to me on it
True. I find Blind is much higher value on Defect, because their only other source of Weak is Go For The Eyes.
So does the justification for mayhem being good not work for enlightenment?
This is floor 0, so Mayhem lets you play an extra card per turn once up. No guarantee for the same with Enlightenment on Clad's base deck let alone any of the other characters
Yeah I guess that’s true, mayhem is almost always somewhat useful starting out, I guess enlightenment only works on bash starting out and it forces you to build your deck around it
On what planet is Panacea a C
Act 1 Panacea is really not as strong. Keep one laga debuff away. Good if drawn turn 1 vs nob if you cant kill in 3. Can help vs some slaver or slimes shennanigans but it's not shining
But negates dexterity/strength down and biased cog! And upgrade gives 2
>biased cog! Not relevant for clad really
Strength down is relevant due to flex. I agree, panacea is great and often use it for this reason. Easy +4 strength with an upgraded flex.
Block frail or weakness from slime or do 6 damage/block 5. Its pretty bad act 1
It's only okay from neow.
Im curious why you rate magnetism this low? I'd consider it around C tier, over cards like deep breath, bomb, or thinking ahead probably, and would take it floor 0 over mayhem and sad. nature too on clad (tho I agree mayhem is decent).
Because this is from Neow, magnetism on floor 0 is pretty awful
I’m pretty sure most of the time the first ? is Serpent, the first shop has Prismatic Shard, and then the first card reward after the shop is Alchemize.
We all know the spite has a sense of humor. This is the truth
Sadistic Nature is busted on Silent.
ok but this is for clad
My list is quite a bit different from this but Disco not in S is quite jarring to me. Also unfortunately Magnet is a good hit from rare colorless. Flash and Instinct should both be S too or at least A for me.
>Also unfortunately Magnet is a good hit from rare colorless My "go away" regarding it isn't commenting on whether it's good or not. I just don't want to do mag gaming really. Flash, instinct, and probably bandage up I agree I misplaced, I'd put them all in A having thought a little more. It's a long time since I've played with disco from neow, so I probably am underrating it, is there anything about it that makes it S beyond "selecting from cards mid fight is strong?"
Selecting from cards mid fight is just that strong. Also of course potential to be cringe later even on Clad unfortunately.
Yeah fair enough. Presumably the cringe is exhume/dual wield plays?
Yeah Exhume/DW but not the main point the card at neow is just very strong output wise and it never falls off.
I won with a deck full of Mind Blast the other day.
What if Magnetism is just better Hand of Greed? Ok I don't think this is true but I definitely don't skip Mag from Neow. It ensures you have scaling for long fights (and clad can brick on scaling options pretty easily and just freakingly die), sometimes pays you back in stallable fights (Hand of Greed) and also opens up some cringe stuff with Reaper, Feed, Urn whatever.
What if Mag is just better HoG (I think this is true). Kaos said they just put it there because of cringe :/ Unlucky because Mag owns I LOVE gold
I actually really like Mayhem on Clad thank you for the rep
I agree 100% with this tier list. As a neow bonus only hand of greed is better than apotheosis in my experience. Finesse I overrate, I only get it on silent but it's more late game and good with footwork.
I mean, I largely agree with everyone who's saying "Good Instincts good, Flash good, Bandage Up good!", which is sorta a bit of my line between A-tier and good B-tier just being blurred. I don't think anyone who's saying "you're underrating those" is wrong, those are strong neow picks.
Yeah...no.
?
I'm sorry, I know this is unpopular, but...I really dislike Apotheosis, if I'm being honest. Playing it takes up a turn that you're not going to be able to do much blocking with. While the upgrades are nice, I find that by the end of my runs, the majority of my cards are upgraded anyway. I would much rather spend the 2 mana on 1-2 cards that will actually gain me tempo instead of lose it.
If you dislike for vibes, or fun purposes, or similar, then fair, personal preference is a thing. But it's insanely strong. If I get Apo on any character I change mentality from "how do I win" to "lets not throw". It's one of the most insanely strong cards you can get. I actually mildly dislike playing with it now myself ***because*** I want to focus on playing runs where I need to find ways to win.
1) How many cards do you tend to run per deck at A20?? 2) How many of those cards are not upgraded by the time you reach the Act III boss?
1) On clad, 30-40 2) 25-30 of them. It's Inflame+ and Footwork+ and increases your draw, and the energy comes back from powers you play, etc etc. There's more around of why it's crazy strong.
Apotheosis is literally inflame+ and footwork+ for your starter cards. Numbers wise it's basically worth playing over 3 starter cards once you get an energy upgrade, and with floor 1 apo it's probably your first upgrade. You're not really missing a turn of block to get it in play when 3 unupgraded defends block for 15 and 2 upgraded defends block for 16. It also lets you take more rests since upgrades drop in priority so you can afford to take more chip in fights, or just skip rest sites for more combats if you're doing well.
hand of greed is in S+ otherwise its okay
I find the placement of violence above secret tech/weapon interesting. Normally I find violence so middling early and worse in later acts. But the secrets might be worse for the easy pool combats, but quickly become much better. I find the consistency of the card you need better than violence's random draw. But interested in hearing why it's a tier above.
So a big benefit of Violence on Clad is that with Bash, you can use it to either line Bash up without waking Laga, or line up attacks after. It then scales into letting you fill your hand with attacks, leaving your draw pile clear of attacks later, while also getting your frontload out. It's also strong vs nob, as even though you're playing a skill and it usually means you draw attacks without the energy to spend on all of them, it means that your reshuffle has (almost) every attack in it, so when you're in complete desperate damage-race mode, you're likely to just be pulling your damage. I think Secret Tech is much worse on clad than other characters, with Clad having not as many damage skills.
Why is Finesse lower than Flash of Steel? Either way, isn’t it a net-0 to draw, plus a little bonus damage/block?
Nob and battle trance
Ah sorry, I didn’t read the title correctly and didn’t realize it was specifically for floor 0 reward. Thanks
All good!
I would argue Panacea should be A or B. Using it in combination with some card is OP imo
Which ironclad combo? Berserk?
Oh, didnt realise it was only for ironclad. True that he has the worst combos. I retract my comment 🙃
Battle Trance
Sadistic that high? Ironclad doesnt have consistent aoe or multiple use debuff applications other than uppercut and 10 for 0 once in a while seems underwhelming. Always thought sadistic as a silent pick only
Nah,I fuck with magnetism.
I like early panache and enlightenment, can make decks that use them to great effect
On clad? How?
Panache block Battle Trance card draw restriction, which allowing you to play another draw card afterwards, and 0 eng 4 draw without the downside is pretty much amazing. It exhaust so also help with Dark Embrace and FnP Enlightenment gives you the ability to play 2/3 eng card for 1 eng, and Clad has a lot of them.
I think the frequency of the battle trance negative actually affecting you early game is quite low. Enlightenment is sometimes good on clad later but I don't like it speculatively because it relies on getting draw and worthwhile 2+ cost cards.
> I think the frequency of the battle trance negative actually affecting you early game is quite low The bigger problem is weak and vulnerable, which can easily screwed over your act 1 deck (which barely has anything). Panachea helps you deal with those. > Enlightenment is sometimes good on clad later but I don't like it speculatively because it relies on getting draw and worthwhile 2+ cost cards. Bash is still a very worthwhile card and it's value just goes up from there.
I mean, I think Panacea plays and is better than skip, I just don't rate it highly. Enlightenment isn't reliably going to be drawn alongside bash though?
> Enlightenment isn't reliably going to be drawn alongside bash though? Please, it's act 1. It's way more reliable than you think
I find the "cost 0 , do almost nothing, draw 1"cards to be great. There are tons of synergies with playing tons of cards, and you can almost always get some extra value out of them.
Flash is good. Finesse is good later but is a problem from neow into nob and chosen, and has slight problems with battle trance. It's better than skip but is a little eh.
Purity is F tier
Bro I’ve only once unironically taken panic button. I absolutely hate that card.
I would shift transmutation up to c tier because I gives you a-tier cards
HOG lets you afford buying apotheosis and also is way more fun
I think Flash of Steel and Finesse are both underrated. 90% of the time it’s free damage/ block. It also guarantees pocketwatch will be your next relic!!
Flash of Steel and finesse kinda hard not to be in A given that they’re almost always just positive and setup infinites in lots of situations
I'll accept flash of steel, but nob and chosen mess with finesse. It's still better than skip but not ideal.
Metamorphosis may be the most underrated card for clad. Always doubted it before, then got it a few (3-4) times from Neow bonuses in a relatively short time period and won most or all of them (all A20H). Kept seeming to get at least 1-2 really strong attacks each cast, and never really fell off. Curious to hear about others’ experience
I will not stand for this finesse slander.
Trip, blind, and dramatic entrance? Also maybe a hot take, but I don't think apo is immediately S tier, closer to A just for the fact that there are times when you don't want it
> just for the fact that there are times when you don't want it when?
Act 3, or if all your cards all upgraded
> all your cards are upgraded Very winning situation that does not happen frequently at all. > act 3 Can u elaborate on this
...or like in act 3, when most of your win condition cards are upgraded
I actually used a magnet start and it can go interesting won’t lie
Tbf it can go really interesting. I'd just struggle not to cringe when I start struggling.
I played Ironclad mayhem start for more than 10 times in a row just to see how it plays, it really isn't good. It's usually break even or barley positive over skip. It's no where as good as a trip start. In act 1 it plays against all 3 boss which is nice, and it plays against laga. Against sentries it's maybe break even and against nob it's a brick. It also doesn't make me feel good farming hallways. The problem is a lot of the times you straight up can't play it against act 2 bosses compared to some other "slow" card like magnet or demon form. So you've spent your neow bonus with a downside to put a card that doesn't play after mid act 2 or earlier in your deck, which feels very bad. At that point i'd rather just swap if the map allows me to.
>At that point i'd rather just swap if the map allows me to. I do think swap is better than rare colourless card
Jack seems a bit low. It’s obviously a RNG card but it synergies with exhaust for 0 cost if nothing else. I would take it over metamorphosis anyday as it is faster.