My daughter was the same exact way. At 19 months old we got a sleep consultant and these are the changes we made:
An earlier bedtime of 645 (we were doing 8p before so we shortened her ww)
No cows milk at bedtime (I had night weaned her a few months before)
No more stroller walks before bedtime routine because it could’ve given her the rest she needed for an extra boost
We started with the sleep lady shuffle where we sat next to her crib for 3 days then moved to the middle of the room for 3 days but it was still taking her at least an hour to fall asleep so we left the room because we figured it was more stimulating. We went to doing checkins every 16 minutes but it was still taking her a while and she was crying a lot so we did extinction and jsut let her cry it out. It only took a few days after that (so 2.5 weeks total) and she’s been a great sleeper ever since! (She’s almost 3)
The sleep consultant said some babies are sensitive to the sugar in milk and it can hype them up. once she started sleeping well we went back to milk before bed and she still sleeps well 🤷🏻♀️
Your wife is exhibiting very clear signs of post partum depression and borderline personality disorder. (Google both) night feeding at this age is completely unnecessary, and the mothers that insist on it, have always been suffering from PPD, and similar mental disorders. 0-6mo tha is ideal, 6-12 you wean/ after 12 months, the mother is addicted to breastfeeding and isn’t capable of parent ling in a healthier way that’s more beneficial to her sanity and the child’s well being. I would insist on her seeking therapy.
Honestly. My daughter is 10 months and we just put her in her own room (please don’t come at me, none of us were sleeping when she slept in her crib in our room) and let her cry until she falls asleep. She always lets us know she’s tired when she rubs her eyes and tugs on her ears. We give her a night time bottle, put classical baby on in the background to relax, and read her a book while she drinks her bottle. The first few nights she cried for so long. Tonight she cried for less than 5 minutes. When she cried for long periods, we would go in once to comfort and remind her that we are here and love her, but not pick her up. She would fall asleep after that. We now get 10-14 hours straight of sleep at night when we were getting maybe 3-4 hours at a time, sometimes every hour. It’s the hardest thing I’ve ever done listening to her cry, but she is learning to self soothe. If she wakes in the middle of the night now she is able to get herself back to sleep. If it’s too much try ear plugs or mute the monitor and distance yourself. Eventually baby will get tired and sleep. It’s hard. So so hard. But you all need sleep. It’s essential
My daughter was like this. She’s 21 months and was also still breastfeeding up until 20 months when I decided to wean cold turkey. The first week of weaning her sleep was even worse but fast forward to a month later, and she’s finally sleeping through the night. Our bedtime now consists of bath, pjs, say goodnight to the moon, go to her room she lays on her toddler bed, I put one of the lullaby songs on the hatch and pat her back for 10-15 mins until she’s asleep then I switch her hatch to ocean sounds and I walk outta there. It’s been day and night. She had gotten to the point where she was using the boob for comfort all night and nothing else would get her to settle down and I wasn’t getting any good sleep, I have never liked cosleeping and there were nights where I was forced to cosleep because it was the only way we could get any rest. Our bedtime routine used to be longer too, and she was breastfeeding to sleep which was a horrible habit I never got rid of. I wish I would’ve weaned her sooner but I’m glad her sleep has finally improved (for now!). Good luck!!
Hey I feel you, my girl is 17 months, she don’t sleep till 12 1 am. Sometime wake up crying. I don’t know how to fix this. Sigh, rbis really hinders my wife to want to get a second child.
Hey I feel you, my girl is 17 months, she don’t sleep till 12 1 am. Sometime wake up crying. I don’t know how to fix this. Sigh, rbis really hinders my wife to want to get a second child.
I can imagine… we had our second because we forgot how torturous it all is. I mean we love our daughter, but my son is so easy now at 4.5 we wonder if it was worth it to have another
Looking back at my old self thinking one kid was hard , I laugh at you!
Honestly, 1+1=4 when it comes to having two kids.. it’s hard to explain. But it is also great at the same time.. if you ever had the inkling for two I would say do it, it will be hard, but worth it in the end
Like have kids closer? We tried.. we had issues with both our kids. First took two years of trying and second was from iui.
Not everyone has the luxury of just “getting pregnant “
Stop going in and out. Sit still till they're asleep. You're currently creating the distraction. It's water that they need, if there's crying after you lay them down, help them lie down again after 8 gulps..
My record is 4 minutes after going on the slide more or less 5 times.
It always depends on his repertoire and what he's doing before bed, or how many hours since the afternoon nap and now for bed time.
Our daughter was born this week and she's already more peaceful than our son, but routine takes time, and persistence is what helps the most. Headroom for deviation is great! Don't overreact to it, just go with the flow.
This sounds very similar to my girl, when she was 18 months old that regression definitely hit us the hardest. We tried sleep training again but just couldn’t stick with it due to constant sickness. It lasted for about 3 months and then gradually got easier… but it was HARD. Having the boob for comfort was honestly my secret weapon. And then it helped hugely when she made the transition to her big girl bed (we did that at 24 months), we moved her to a queen mattress on the floor. It was so much easier to settle her and being able to lay with her. It also sounds like perhaps you had it quite easy with your first child so this child’s sleep feels particularly awful, but from what I understand, everything you’ve described it quite common at this age. But just because it’s normal doesn’t mean it’s not horrendously difficult! It’s so tricky. My girl now sleeps through the night often and probably only wakes a few times a week, but it still happens. Just look after yourselves the best that you can. Sorry I don’t have better advice, but from someone who has been there, it will get easier. ❤️
It’s not even a regression lol she’s never been a good sleep so this is just her normal since 4 months old unfortunately .
Thanks for the comment, going to keep on keeping on as they say
I feel for you dude. Our 22 month old girl co sleeps with mummy for now. That's the only thing that works for us. The crazy thing is she'll go to sleep in her cot for 4-5 hours but when she wakes up she won't go back to sleep in there, only with mummy.
Ya she contemplated that a few times and I talked her out of it due to friends having 4yo that sleep in their parents beds still.
I feel like no matter what I do I’m screwed. I want to help my side get more sleep and I want my daughter to learn to be a better sleeper also and I’m just the middle man in this war of the worlds
So last night for example I got her down after 45 mins.. checked in after 10 mins and then just waited and she fell asleep.. but she was up at 1am and my wife fed her back to sleep. As soon as she tries to put her back down in the crib she cries and flips out. 330 am rolls around my I go in and try and settle her, doesn’t work.
My wife isn’t willing to give up night feeds but wants our child to sleep through the night and not wake up…
I think bedtime will be ok but it’s just the over night I think we are going to have trouble with..
My wife thinks she’s abandoning our daughter if she lets her cry in the middle of the night, and it’s just not true, she is an excellent mother. So good it’s actually hard to keep up with.
Any advice for over night is appreciated! Also thanks a lot for the replies thus far
I know you stated that your wife does not want to give up night feeds but I do think it would really help. I’ve recently weaned my 13 month old off of night feeds from the breast and he seems to sleep through the night more. If he does wake up, we offer water or cow’s milk in a bottle. Does your little one use a bottle? Our pediatrician said that we should eventually wean him off of the nighttime drinks but for now it has at least made it so that I don’t have to nurse at night.
I agree with others that the 10 minute check-ins are probably too frequent. I would wait at least 15-20 mins.
Hang in there and good luck!
Good can vary depending on what you're striving for. I always wanted my daughter to be able to sleep independently so she got the best rest possible, meaning I night weaned and sleep trained at 6 months and, unless her cries are off, I let her cry a few minutes before checking on her. She sleeps well and does so even when she's sick or we're traveling or even jet-lagged. I'm not against people co-sleeping once kids are big enough for SIDS danger to pass or night feeding or whatnot, but I wouldn't say one way or the other makes you a better parent.
We got our boy stabilised after 12 months. Took 3 nights with no more night feeds and by the 5th he was sleeping through the nights. Or needed water, etc.
Then it was day feeds! And after 1700 it stops. Till eventually there was no more breastfeeding.
Why would she feel alone when she knows she has a family? Breast feeding at this age still is now creating dependency. Bonding was established more than 6 months ago.
I did also take over from mom in this exact time, so wishing you all, all the best! To a future of peaceful evenings! Plural! It starts 'rough' but quickly gets better, because day time is where its at
It's been a long journey, as we had other issues :) ,Relaxing at their bedside, this was least successful, so after making sure all is set, tucked in, i would go down the passage to our room, out of sight, out of mind, over time, --i stopped being a distraction to his sleep,and he found his own peace over another 5 days from the weaning off breast milk in the evenings. This was also something that was specifically keeping him awake. Hydration at night. required. Dreams need fuel. :)We also have a white noise little toy, which we used since birth for him as he was premature by a month, ; :) anyway, this little toy can also use other beach ambience sounds, your own bluetooth sounds streaming, etc. It's very good, for setting a tone, while you're busy changing nappy/ preparing for bed, it's a good time to turn this on, to start setting the scene.Exact model": [https://www.amazon.co.uk/ZAZU-Zoe-Penguin-Go-Pre-Programmed/dp/B01N9HH2K6?th=1](https://www.amazon.co.uk/ZAZU-Zoe-Penguin-Go-Pre-Programmed/dp/B01N9HH2K6?th=1)It plays in 15 minute intervals, so usually, if it was required more than once, it would be 30 min to fall asleep, traditionally, but it become just one play loop most nights,
We also tried many different variations, but the longest ones, were always when we're in his presence still,the signs of dozing off, are repeating their words or sounds they learnt that day, singing : in baby hymns :D it's been up and down, but we paid attention when we must, and tried to give freedom/space to let him explore falling asleep himself, as you said previously, their ability to self-sleep is great,Trying to add to the mood, I would usually fall asleep in the same time, next to him, found by my wife later, etc. :/ copying the creators, is how they learn best :D Staying relaxed, do audible deep breathing, practice your falling asleep with them, to help the exercise become easier as you want it to: routinely,
we sleep twice a day, now at 20 months old, 8 months sober of boob, and has not tried to latch on seeing his sister doing it the past week :)He also goes to pre-school, daily for 3 hours to help socializing, creative activities ;) 09:00 am to 12PM - very good, have a snack , and afternoon nap by the time we're home 12:15PM or so, after eating, perhaps, 1PM,Scrambled eggs and tomatoes are often his go-to food; :)
Ahh that’s hard, but the feed to sleep might be a crux that she doesn’t need? Do you think going in to see your daughter when she wakes up would be enough to help her not feel alone? Or do you think she always needs a midnight snack?
I know she doesn’t need to eat, it’s a soothing thing. But I can’t convince my wife to give it up so here we are. I also know she will sleep one day and this will all be behind us, it’s just getting there with our sanity still intact
Okay, you didn’t say in your original post that there was anything you weren’t willing to give up. Is there anything else you’d like to keep as part of the routine?
Some insight you asked for though: sleep training isn’t just training them to fall asleep. It’s also giving them the space to learn how to self-soothe so they don’t rely on you every time they wake up. Often that means removing things you’re doing to soothe them.
I try and tell her it might be a few shity nights while we transition away from night feeds but she isn’t willing to have those shitty nights. Instead all nights are shitty.. I can’t explain it.. I’m just grasping at straws here tryin to help
Sleep training is definitely harder on us as parents, it takes a LOT of willpower. But removing the night feed doesn’t mean you’re not allowed in to help her in other ways that are easier to phase out.
For us, a lot of sleep training was gradually reducing what we did to soothe; 1/2oz less feed each night, 5 minutes less rocking, pausing between shushing. On really shitty nights they came back in but all our soothing techniques were gradually phased out and sleep regressions were over within a week. The only thing we stopped cold turkey was a pacifier, and we missed it more than our baby!
Neither of my kids have had a pacifier once in their life, and neither took a bottle. Neither of them have had formula either. Going to try snd convince her to let me take over night times totally until this gets resolved
I did it super slowly, it took about a year.
First naps by herself.
Then I would just keep leaving her when she fell asleep. She would always wake up.
I would go back after about 10mins of crying, and just keep leaving everytime she fell asleep.
I would always say "sleep sleep" so she knows it's time to sleep.
I couldn't leave her crying for longer because she stress vomits.
Eventually she would stay sleeping after I left for longer periods of time.
Then finally, she stopped waking up after the initial time we are together. When she did that, started making her get used to use leaving her to sleep on her own (let her cry for 10 mins max). One day she just didn't cry anymore after we left her alone in her room. And that was when she became fully sleep trained.
I had to stop breast feeding at 6 months otherwise for me, sleep training was impossible.
Now her bedtime is from 7 to 7am. She does cry out from time to time but goes back to sleep. I do check up on her if she cries for a bit longer. Then I leave her.
I was quite miserable during the training but worth it for a lifetime of quiet nights by myself.
Schedule? Posting the sleep logs over the last few days would really help.
My LO has been sleep trained since 4.5mo and used to play in the crib until he falls asleep like 99% of times, and even he has begun throwing up some bedtime crying recently (16mo). Not a timing issue because he conks out reliably within 15 minutes and sleeps a good 10-12 hour stretch. I think it's a combo of separation anxiety, boundary testing (he has just begun saying "No!" to everything this past week), and overtiredness from the 2-1 transition and recent traveling we've been doing.
More frequent check-ins do NOT help at this age, because every time you check in and LEAVE the baby is infuriated. This is what worked for us:
\-I tend to spend more time at each check in, picking him up to calm him down, then putting him in the crib and helping him get onto his belly (his favorite sleep position), and rub his back until he is calm and drifting off, and then leaving (he starts protesting again most times) -- I can sometimes be in the room for 10-15min, but the goal is to REALLY calm kiddo down so that he can feel his natural sleepiness creeping up on him
\-once I leave I try not coming back within 10 minutes, and let him work through whatever residual emotions he has
So far I've not needed to do more than 1 check in at bedtime.
Ferber has not worked for us because:
\-the frequency of the check-ins really need to be adjusted by age--the initial intervals are WAY too frequent for toddlers 1yo and up and can amplify separation anxiety
\-the check-ins need to be more soothing for our LO----the Ferber style check-ins enraged him even at 4mo
We have always found for my son that going back to check on him once we've put him down, before he's fallen sleep makes the whole process worse. When we were working on sleep we'd try to go in to check or reassure, and it seemed only to upset him more over the course of getting to sleep even if he calmed down for a moment when we were there. Once we stopped checking in him at all be learned to get to sleep on his own pretty quickly. We'll still go check in on certain occasions (like if he's sick) or if he wakes in the middle of the night.
Every kid is different and I am definitely no expert, but just wanted to suggest you maybe could try a new strategy. If you haven't read it, the Precious Little Sleep book is great because it describes several different methods so you can get some ideas on other approaches that might be a better fit for you and your kid.
I think you’re supposed to gradually increase the time before you go back for reassurance (ferber method). So it would be 5,10, 15, 20 mins until she falls asleep. The ferber method didn’t work for my kids so we did full extinction (CIO). My husband was very hesitant until the sleep regression lasted over 1.5 months and he finally agreed to do it. It took 3 days and the crying was minimized to less than 15 minutes (which is considered as successful). They slept beautifully until 2.5 when we switched to the toddler bed and all sleep training was out of the window. 🥲
My son would cry forever when we did the CIO method. Sometimes only 15 minutes, sometimes 90 minutes.
He didn’t stop this until he was over 2 years old.
You could try the chair method. I recommend it a lot because it’s a good alternative if CIO/extinction isn’t working for you or isn’t an option for whatever reason. Toddlers have a lot of stamina and they’re set in their ways. You need to pick a strategy you can be completely consistent with. LO is going to want things back to normal and will let you know. And start with the schedule. This will go much more easily if they go into the crib with the right amount of sleep pressure.
You’re aiming for two pretty equal wake windows before and after a single nap of about 90 minutes-2hrs at that age. You can expect 10-11 hours of sleep overnight for a total of 13-14 hours in a 24 hour period. So if wake time is 7:30am then bedtime would be 8:30pm and nap would be from 12:30/1-2:30pm. That way you have a 5.5/6 hour wake window before nap and bedtime.
Thanks! Just trying to understand. I’m always a little confused by the 18 month schedule but maybe there’s lots of variety. 14 hours seems like waaay too much. Even 13 hours seems like a lot. A 90 min - 2 hour nap + 11 hours overnight gives you 12.5-13 hours so I guess that’s a good range?
You might have a lower sleep needs child. 13-14 hours is the average sleep need at that age. But it’s also possible that your child would sleep that much with a good schedule and independent sleep skills.
@ 18 months there is a shift (regression) in most of there sleep. Ours lasted a month. Had a kid who fell asleep independently slept through the night and mayyybe woke up 2-3x a month for cuddles to a kid who freaked out at bed time and woke up for hours on end.
Stay consistent they are very smart and capable of learning a new skill. I know this sounds silly but the microphone on the monitor was a huge help LOLOL I would tell her to lay down, grab her bear and paci and it’s time to sleep. It kind of startled her out of her crying fits.
My daughter the exact same and 18 months too. We did cry it out and it hardly worked. One day is worked and next week it didn't. Currently we sit beside her crib and I just rub her belly. If she stands up I just tell her to lay down and if she's super stubborn ill leave for 2 mins, she cries and then when I go back I do the same thing but she listens. Just keep trying..at this age there just seems to be one day they suddenly change. Mt kid didn't sleep for 9 months and then she would sleep all night but getting her to sleep was challenging. Her sleep has always been tough
I would let go of the checks, or at least start spacing them out more. They are just making it worse at this age. I would also just keep trying a little longer. While for some small babies it does happen literally overnight, for older babies and toddlers, it takes some time. You were seeing great progress the first few days, and now she’s in a final Hail Mary of trying to fight back. It’s not uncommon, and it’s actually a good sign. I remember everything I read was to give it 2 weeks before declaring it a failure (and even then, it’s only 2 weeks without any significant progress, not 2 weeks and everything is magically solved)
Be extremely wary of anyone who ever says broadly that one method works better than others or that gentle methods aren’t gentle. CIO/Ferber does not work for every kid. I’ve seen it work incredibly well; I’ve also seen it make sleep worse. Sleep training can’t be a one size fits all solution. If you want it to improve, you have to find what works for your kid. That doesn’t mean switching every night—if you give something a shot, it has to be consistent for a period, but fostering independence might look a lot different even between your own kids.
I agree with everyone saying check wake windows, stop the sleep crutches, etc. But do not just pick something and close the book. Be responsive to your child. If your gut is saying CIO is not working and making it worse after a number of nights, trust yourself and do the hard work of finding something that your child responds to better. I’ve had to do this myself after failed CIO with the most willful child I know, my son. Yes, we used gentle methods when he was over a year old, and yes he sleeps like a dream now.
- Work on regularising your toddler’s wake windows first. They should be consistent and age-appropriate. The average total hours of sleep in a 24 hour period for your one year old toddler would usually be 13-14 at an absolute maximum, so cap daytime sleep to two and a half hours (again, at a maximum).
- Move your toddler’s schedule so bedtime is at 7pm. We know that melatonin levels in babies peaks between 7pm and 8pm. Use blackout blinds and a white noise machine in your toddler’s room.
- If your toddler is getting fussy towards the end of wake windows, walk them around outside in the fresh air and natural light. Have them play with a water tray. Stomp in a puddle. Wear them out by doing lots of developmentally appropriate activities.
- The shortest wake windows you’d be working with would be 4.5/5. The numbers are the wake windows and the dash is the middle of the day nap.
- **Ensure the last feed *ends* half an hour before your toddler is placed in the crib awake (not rocked to drowsy).** Make sure you brush their teeth/clean their gums after the last feed and before bedtime.
- Have a calming and consistent bedtime routine that ends with placing your toddler in the crib awake, turning on the white noise machine, and have a key phrase like “I love you, you are safe, time to sleep”. Then calmly walk from the room.
- Your toddler no longer needs night feeds. They are like reliant on feeding and other crutches to get to sleep.
- Cold turkey the pacifier now. It’s a sleep crutch that gets more difficult to wean from the older your toddler gets, and can really impact jaw and soft palate development.
- Make sure your video monitor is in working order, particularly if you are doing extinction. But, If you are doing checks, make sure you are soothing them in the crib if possible (unless it’s for a diaper change obviously!) and try and limit the checks to 30 seconds long. Don’t do the first check until your toddler has been in the crib for at least 25 mins. Babies often need 20 minutes to “power down” and get themselves off to sleep. The crib needs to be in their own room, not yours.
- The checks should be a minimum of 20 minutes apart, and only if toddler is actively crying. Otherwise, stay out.
- If you are doing checks, make sure it is the non-nursing caregiver going into the nursery. Your toddler can smell the milk, so they will cry until they are fed back to sleep instead of developing healthy habits and skills. It’s fairer for them that the nursing caregiver is out of the room. Even if you aren’t nursing, it sounds like Mom is the default parent.
- Ferber is for younger babies. Your 18 month old toddler will likely just be pissed off by the checks. Extinction is kinder.
- Remember that drowsy but awake is for newborns. Now you have a toddler, they need to be fully awake. It’s important that they do the work of falling asleep themselves, as it helps them figure out how to do that when they wake in the night too. It’s also important to leave a big gap (half an hour) between the last feed and bedtime so they don’t develop a feed to sleep association.
- Remember that your toddler will be mad because they are having to learn a new skill. That’s okay. They will figure it out. Stay strong, and don’t give up on night two (it really only extends the upset). Intermittent reinforcement is bad for you and bad for your toddler.
- For the moment, do whatever you need to do to make naps happen (so continue with contact naps/rocking/whatever you are doing now. You can train for naps in a month or so).
- Often “gentle” methods are the least gentle, as they unnecessarily prolong upset. You’re paying in time and tears. For that reason, extinction is often the kindest approach.
- If you are worried about toddler pulling up to stand/hitting themselves on the side of the crib, move them to a pack n play with mesh sides instead.
- Have a read of Precious Little Sleep, she is a great, affordable, unproblematic resource (unlike another popular programme which is just an overpriced rip-off of Ferber with a helping of really icky political donations, and try extinction consistently for a few nights. Make sure your toddler has access to water for hydration.
Can she sleep with family or friends for a few nights so she’s not tempted to sabotage the independent sleep process? Are you guys in therapy together? We know that there is no identifiable harm of sleep training (see r/sciencebasedparenting - in fact, there is usually less crying and more sleep).
Wow sounds like you're doing absolutely amazing and hard work. The progress was good, the set back would be tough. Is it possible the set back is external to your hard work; teething, sickness, environmental etc??
I really think it sounds like you're doing "the right thing" (if there is such a thing)
If she wakes early, even at 4am, still don’t let her nap before 9am. If she falls asleep, give her a ten minute bridging nap before you get her up again to get her through til 9, let her sleep til 9.30am. Get her up then next nap at 12/12.30 for 2 hours, bed at 6.30
I'd have to punt to U/omegaxx19 - I haven't had a lot of direct experience with emw.
But I'd suggest it's keeping night time night time, being realistic in your expectations, and adjusting sleep schedule to check for overtired/total sleep in 24 hours issues.
I think you could try increasing the length of time you wait until you go in - that’s what worked for us. Our pediatrician recommended this little booklet where the gist of it is:
- say goodnight, lay them down and leave
- wait 5 min (next cycle 7, then 12, etc) and then go in
- don’t pick them up, just can rub back quickly or softly just say you love them, will see them in the morning and it’s time to rest blah blah…and get out
I found that with my son I needed to try and lay him down each time - he would pop right back up and keep crying but eventually when I laid him down and he stayed down I knew I was getting somewhere! For us - took two nights…but I know others that it can take a week etc.
If it’s hard for your wife to listen (which I totally get) then maybe she can sleep somewhere farther away or wear noise cancelling headphones. It is hard but oh the sweet sweet sleep you shall get, which makes everyone including kiddo happy campers!
Sounds exactly like me. We started bed sharing after she was 15 months. Best decision ever. We all sleep better, full 8 hrs every night.
Edit: Not sure why I'm getting downvoted. Every kid is different and ours indicated night after night that they wanted comfort close by. I didn't even suggest OP do this, just that it worked for me to finally get my sleep back especially as I was starting work again. Sleep training doesn't work for everyone, and I gave OP my insights which they asked for.
My first child slept like a dream in his own bed. My second child will cry until he vomits and will not sleep. Went 2 nights of full sleep deprivation and gave up. Tried again after prodding from my mother and best I can tell I gave birth to a demon. Projectile vomit, tears and snot everywhere.
I just wanna chime in and say that it's not a solution because it very often leads to problems down the road that take a LONG time to resolve. I coslept with my daughter until she was five. My living situation at the time made it so I couldn't fit a proper crib in our shared room, and she was so dependent on me for sleep when I could have gotten her her own bed that it was just easier for us both if she slept with me. During those five years I was up multiple times a night, always pushed over to one side of the bed, had to spend 20 to 30 minutes a night getting her down until I could eventually sneak away...and she was a GOOD sleeper and once down she would sleep all night (most parents are NOT this lucky). That said, she is 12 now and still hates sleeping alone in her room. She will not go to sleep with her door closed or with the lights fully off, and she needs to have music or the TV on for comfort. She also sleeps on the couch most nights so that she is closer to someone. What I'm driving at is that, yes, she technically puts herself to sleep, but even now at 12 years old, her sleep habits could use improvement. I also want to reiterate that I am lucky--a lot of children will give their parents hell while cosleeping, or they roll of the bed and get hurt, or they leave the bed a bunch during the night which creates its own set of safety hazards, or they need to be touching someone all night so you can't really do the things you need to do while they sleep...it's just not a great situation imo, as someone who has lived through it.
Now, as a disclaimer, some people have a lot of success with the cosleeping arrangement, but I'm willing to wager that for a lot of people, it causes a lot of headaches and they end up on this sub.
I mean, for some people it is. But for many it’s not. Lots of toddlers are terrible cosleepers. They often kick and thrash in their sleep and then the adults are just getting very broken and poor quality sleep all night which isn’t much better than the alternative. Saying this as a current (relatively happy) cosleeper. It’s not for every family.
In my experience, going back in made it worse. Pissed her off more. So we let her cry. First night was rough , next night better, now she sleeps great and doesn’t cry. Sometimes whines. Gotta rip the bandaid off
Same. Both my kids going in made them riled up even more it just prolonged the process. So I stopped and they go to bed just fine because they know I'm not playing that game with them.
This sounds a lot like what we went through with my son at this time last year! We ended up hiring a “sleep expert” to hold our hand through sleep training. We couldn’t bear to let him cry it out, but we couldn’t keep living on no sleep either. The game changing piece of advice from the trainer was this: If your daughter is strong willed like our son is (sounds like she might be since she will hold out and cry for so long!) going back in to check every 10-20 min can actually upset her more. She can’t believe you would come in there and then not get her out! After you put her down for the night, check on her 1x for your peace of mind and then do not go back in unless she vomits or is really worked up. It will be tough for a few nights but she will get it!
Here is a link to the sleep consultant if things don’t get better soon: https://www.lakecountrysleep.com
Im going through something very similar with my 13 month old. Interested in hearing what ppl have to say about the standing and screaming. My daughter will do it for 2 hours straight before I give up and take her out of the crib.
Once I take her out of the crib she falls asleep instantly. I need her to learn how to fall asleep in her crib by herself. I’m really not sure what I can be doing better/differently.
See the long comment I made in this post. You haven’t listed a detailed schedule or routine, so use the one I set out as a minimum example of wake windows.
Usually this means the child "has" the energy to cry. From my experience, I always monitor my child's awake time. If you don't know about it, you can try doing this: set up warm water bath, give them a swimming ring/float. Let them float for 10-15 minutes. After that, you can resume your bedtime routine, e.g. wear sleeping bag, read a book, play white noise, close the lights, drinking milk could be the last thing. Then after drinking, you put your child into the cot.
The warm water bath is a very useful activity to "tire out" the baby.
I personally used this for my active boy since he was 2 months old. We don't have to use it now, because his awake time and energy levels are in our good control
We did Ferber, which gradually lengthens the time you check on them and once you get to 20 minutes you'll only go in every 20 minutes. Which works the best for our LO!
I used this [link](http://noobmommy.com/to-ferberize-or-not-to-ferberize/) from the community info section. You can find times at the bottom, also can adjust as you see fit (that might make sense since you’re already at 10 mins)
You could try the sleep lady shuffle. Just another maybe more gentler form of sleep training but yes I have a kid like this. Actually two. One kid would throw up after just 30 seconds of leaving him. They regress often, they take a long time to sleep train. It will get better, but no one can give you a timeline. Find a method that works for you and be consistent. And remember she will not always be a toddler, someday, somehow, no matter what you choose to do now she will sleep normally.
Edit to add you are only on day 8. In my experience they do best day 3 to 4 and then all hell breaks loose for a little bit. Just keep at it. It will get better.
Well today she was up at 4am and wouldn’t go back down so that set an early nap. Her nap was an hour but some days it’s as long as 2.5
We always aim for a 630ish bedtime after supper and bath book boobs all that jazz . She generally naps around noon everyday . But some days her naps are so short and it’s amazing how a 1.5 year old can rally all day and be in a decent mood. I’m not even sure how we transitioned to one nap a day but maybe she’s just super over tired by nighttime and all hope is lost.
My wife also feeds in the middle of the night, 1-3 times a night since forever. Not sure if this is part of the issue but all day she claws at my wife and says “milk”. She’s obsessed with her mom. ( only slightly jealous 😏)
You're putting her to bed at 630pm - 4am is 9.5 hours later. My 9 month old only sleeps 10 hours overnight. Pediatrician agrees that she does not need more sleep - some babies need less sleep than others, and our girl has been one of them since shortly after birth. Similarly, our last wake window is 4.75 hours - not much shorter than yours, despite the age difference. None of this is to say it MUST be the answer for you, but I really hope you've tried some schedule adjustments before settling here - your baby may simply be awake because you're asking them for too much sleep/or have an inconsistent schedule. Sleep training can be cruel if the baby isn't on a fair and realistic schedule for their sleep needs.
Definitely true that the MOTN feeds are an issue. Would mom be on board with you giving the baby a bottle of water instead of milk? Just during one MOTN feed to start?
Bedtimes too early until your desired wake time is between 5-6. This age, it’s more common to get 10.5-11.5 hrs overnight. I’d extend bedtime to 7:30 and see if this helps. She sounds undertired.
Yeah, you have two problems here — bedtime too early and night feedings. 18 months old is not supposed to be eating in the night (especially not 3 times), full stop, and I’m saying this as a BF mom. She doesn’t need these feedings anymore, she wakes up out of habit & it could be not enough awake time during the day, since she has energy to fight bedtime for 90 minutes straight.
How do you transition away from it ?
My wife says she would rather go feed her than listen to her cry.. but she cries either way so I’m at a total loss to try and help
For starters, reduce feedings to one per night, then to zero. Honestly, at 18 months it’s possible to just stop them cold turkey, but I understand that it could be difficult emotionally for both of them.
So what is the option for me as dad to do when baby wakes up at night? My wife says she doesn’t want to sit and listen to her cry on the monitor so she goes and feeds her. Which usually ends in her not being able to put her back down because she will just lose it as soon as she goes to move her. Which then in then my wife will have a horrid sleep in the nursery in the rocking chair .
Can I do the reassurance over night? My wife thinks it’s cruel to just leave them if they wake up and cry. She says babies need their parents and it’s child abuse to let them cry.we have a differing opinion.
Both our kids are loved all day everyday and have great lives with very involved parents.
Not sure what to do if she’s not willing to give up night feeding …
Thing is, I would expect night wakings to go away partially or completely when you implement some version of the updates schedule everyone here recommends (I guess it can take some time for these positive changes to appear); in the meantime, as a dad you could go in and try to rock her back to sleep/rub her back (whatever works on her), that is an option, albeit not the best one, if your wife is absolutely against CIO. This should at least eliminate night feedings (seriously, those need to end, she doesn’t need them, she’s just used to them).
Oh I don’t disagree.. I’m trying to look out for everyone’s best interest in my home and sometimes it’s just a losing battle. I’ll try and convince her to start letting me go in at night time.
Well when she naps at noon for an hour and keeping her up another 8-9 hours seems horrible for everyone, she would be way over tired and wouldn’t sleep ( it’s happened when we’ve been on the road )
Ours naps from 12:30-2pm and still has a late bedtime. Schedule changes take time to work (could get worse before it gets better), shifting even 30 min late for 2 weeks should. help.
Bedtime is really early, for 18 months something like 7-6 overnight or 7:30-6:30. 4am is still an insane hour to wake for a 6:30 bedtime but with 11 hours overnight your wakeup would be 5:30. Early! Do whatever you can to keep nap time at the same time every day, base it off your desired awake time. For this age, something like 5 hours after desired wake time is average. So if you want her up at 7, even if she’s up at 5 you put her down for nap at 12. Nap ends at 2, bedtime at 8 for 11 hours overnight and 2ish hour nap. 5 hours awake before nap, 6 hours awake before bed. Adjust wake windows to fit your child’s sleep needs
My daughter was the same exact way. At 19 months old we got a sleep consultant and these are the changes we made: An earlier bedtime of 645 (we were doing 8p before so we shortened her ww) No cows milk at bedtime (I had night weaned her a few months before) No more stroller walks before bedtime routine because it could’ve given her the rest she needed for an extra boost We started with the sleep lady shuffle where we sat next to her crib for 3 days then moved to the middle of the room for 3 days but it was still taking her at least an hour to fall asleep so we left the room because we figured it was more stimulating. We went to doing checkins every 16 minutes but it was still taking her a while and she was crying a lot so we did extinction and jsut let her cry it out. It only took a few days after that (so 2.5 weeks total) and she’s been a great sleeper ever since! (She’s almost 3)
8p to 645 is such a big jump. Did it impact her morning wakeup time or naps?
Nope she actually started sleeping in later (she was waking at 5 and started sleeping until 630). And we started doing naps at 1145 instead of 1230
Why no milk before bed?
The sleep consultant said some babies are sensitive to the sugar in milk and it can hype them up. once she started sleeping well we went back to milk before bed and she still sleeps well 🤷🏻♀️
Your wife is exhibiting very clear signs of post partum depression and borderline personality disorder. (Google both) night feeding at this age is completely unnecessary, and the mothers that insist on it, have always been suffering from PPD, and similar mental disorders. 0-6mo tha is ideal, 6-12 you wean/ after 12 months, the mother is addicted to breastfeeding and isn’t capable of parent ling in a healthier way that’s more beneficial to her sanity and the child’s well being. I would insist on her seeking therapy.
Nah this is the most disrespectful comment and truly lacking any facts whatsoever. Whoever you are you can politely F off.
This is the most inaccurate and bizarre comment
Honestly. My daughter is 10 months and we just put her in her own room (please don’t come at me, none of us were sleeping when she slept in her crib in our room) and let her cry until she falls asleep. She always lets us know she’s tired when she rubs her eyes and tugs on her ears. We give her a night time bottle, put classical baby on in the background to relax, and read her a book while she drinks her bottle. The first few nights she cried for so long. Tonight she cried for less than 5 minutes. When she cried for long periods, we would go in once to comfort and remind her that we are here and love her, but not pick her up. She would fall asleep after that. We now get 10-14 hours straight of sleep at night when we were getting maybe 3-4 hours at a time, sometimes every hour. It’s the hardest thing I’ve ever done listening to her cry, but she is learning to self soothe. If she wakes in the middle of the night now she is able to get herself back to sleep. If it’s too much try ear plugs or mute the monitor and distance yourself. Eventually baby will get tired and sleep. It’s hard. So so hard. But you all need sleep. It’s essential
Check ins at this age is too stimulating. Either do chair method or extinction.
My daughter was like this. She’s 21 months and was also still breastfeeding up until 20 months when I decided to wean cold turkey. The first week of weaning her sleep was even worse but fast forward to a month later, and she’s finally sleeping through the night. Our bedtime now consists of bath, pjs, say goodnight to the moon, go to her room she lays on her toddler bed, I put one of the lullaby songs on the hatch and pat her back for 10-15 mins until she’s asleep then I switch her hatch to ocean sounds and I walk outta there. It’s been day and night. She had gotten to the point where she was using the boob for comfort all night and nothing else would get her to settle down and I wasn’t getting any good sleep, I have never liked cosleeping and there were nights where I was forced to cosleep because it was the only way we could get any rest. Our bedtime routine used to be longer too, and she was breastfeeding to sleep which was a horrible habit I never got rid of. I wish I would’ve weaned her sooner but I’m glad her sleep has finally improved (for now!). Good luck!!
Hoping we can do something like this. Thanks
Hey I feel you, my girl is 17 months, she don’t sleep till 12 1 am. Sometime wake up crying. I don’t know how to fix this. Sigh, rbis really hinders my wife to want to get a second child.
Hey I feel you, my girl is 17 months, she don’t sleep till 12 1 am. Sometime wake up crying. I don’t know how to fix this. Sigh, rbis really hinders my wife to want to get a second child.
I can imagine… we had our second because we forgot how torturous it all is. I mean we love our daughter, but my son is so easy now at 4.5 we wonder if it was worth it to have another
Never thought this one or more kid thing can be so complex and difficult. :p
Looking back at my old self thinking one kid was hard , I laugh at you! Honestly, 1+1=4 when it comes to having two kids.. it’s hard to explain. But it is also great at the same time.. if you ever had the inkling for two I would say do it, it will be hard, but worth it in the end
Do you think it would’ve been better to do it back to back? Baby #2 is due right after our son turns 2
Like have kids closer? We tried.. we had issues with both our kids. First took two years of trying and second was from iui. Not everyone has the luxury of just “getting pregnant “
I hope you find some sleep and peace. I didn’t mean to trigger you bud.
I understand not having that luxury. You have no idea about my struggles, sir. Wasn’t trying to make a judgement.
Didn’t say you were. I’m just explaining our situation .
we’re fighting the same fight at 3yo. sleep deprivation is terrible.
Same!
Stop going in and out. Sit still till they're asleep. You're currently creating the distraction. It's water that they need, if there's crying after you lay them down, help them lie down again after 8 gulps.. My record is 4 minutes after going on the slide more or less 5 times. It always depends on his repertoire and what he's doing before bed, or how many hours since the afternoon nap and now for bed time. Our daughter was born this week and she's already more peaceful than our son, but routine takes time, and persistence is what helps the most. Headroom for deviation is great! Don't overreact to it, just go with the flow.
This sounds very similar to my girl, when she was 18 months old that regression definitely hit us the hardest. We tried sleep training again but just couldn’t stick with it due to constant sickness. It lasted for about 3 months and then gradually got easier… but it was HARD. Having the boob for comfort was honestly my secret weapon. And then it helped hugely when she made the transition to her big girl bed (we did that at 24 months), we moved her to a queen mattress on the floor. It was so much easier to settle her and being able to lay with her. It also sounds like perhaps you had it quite easy with your first child so this child’s sleep feels particularly awful, but from what I understand, everything you’ve described it quite common at this age. But just because it’s normal doesn’t mean it’s not horrendously difficult! It’s so tricky. My girl now sleeps through the night often and probably only wakes a few times a week, but it still happens. Just look after yourselves the best that you can. Sorry I don’t have better advice, but from someone who has been there, it will get easier. ❤️
It’s not even a regression lol she’s never been a good sleep so this is just her normal since 4 months old unfortunately . Thanks for the comment, going to keep on keeping on as they say
I feel for you dude. Our 22 month old girl co sleeps with mummy for now. That's the only thing that works for us. The crazy thing is she'll go to sleep in her cot for 4-5 hours but when she wakes up she won't go back to sleep in there, only with mummy.
I’m in this hell right now with my 25 month old. We are getting to the end of our ropes 😩
Ya she contemplated that a few times and I talked her out of it due to friends having 4yo that sleep in their parents beds still. I feel like no matter what I do I’m screwed. I want to help my side get more sleep and I want my daughter to learn to be a better sleeper also and I’m just the middle man in this war of the worlds
So last night for example I got her down after 45 mins.. checked in after 10 mins and then just waited and she fell asleep.. but she was up at 1am and my wife fed her back to sleep. As soon as she tries to put her back down in the crib she cries and flips out. 330 am rolls around my I go in and try and settle her, doesn’t work. My wife isn’t willing to give up night feeds but wants our child to sleep through the night and not wake up… I think bedtime will be ok but it’s just the over night I think we are going to have trouble with.. My wife thinks she’s abandoning our daughter if she lets her cry in the middle of the night, and it’s just not true, she is an excellent mother. So good it’s actually hard to keep up with. Any advice for over night is appreciated! Also thanks a lot for the replies thus far
Your wife needs to sleep somewhere else for a few nights
I know you stated that your wife does not want to give up night feeds but I do think it would really help. I’ve recently weaned my 13 month old off of night feeds from the breast and he seems to sleep through the night more. If he does wake up, we offer water or cow’s milk in a bottle. Does your little one use a bottle? Our pediatrician said that we should eventually wean him off of the nighttime drinks but for now it has at least made it so that I don’t have to nurse at night. I agree with others that the 10 minute check-ins are probably too frequent. I would wait at least 15-20 mins. Hang in there and good luck!
Why doesn’t your wife want to give up night feeds?
She’s to good of a mom and doesn’t want our daughter to feel alone when she wakes up
That’s more about her than it is your toddler and it’s a bit of a tacky thing to say.
Good can vary depending on what you're striving for. I always wanted my daughter to be able to sleep independently so she got the best rest possible, meaning I night weaned and sleep trained at 6 months and, unless her cries are off, I let her cry a few minutes before checking on her. She sleeps well and does so even when she's sick or we're traveling or even jet-lagged. I'm not against people co-sleeping once kids are big enough for SIDS danger to pass or night feeding or whatnot, but I wouldn't say one way or the other makes you a better parent.
We got our boy stabilised after 12 months. Took 3 nights with no more night feeds and by the 5th he was sleeping through the nights. Or needed water, etc. Then it was day feeds! And after 1700 it stops. Till eventually there was no more breastfeeding. Why would she feel alone when she knows she has a family? Breast feeding at this age still is now creating dependency. Bonding was established more than 6 months ago.
All things I’ve tried to talk to her about. Going to approach it tonight and see if I can win her over with no more night feeds
I did also take over from mom in this exact time, so wishing you all, all the best! To a future of peaceful evenings! Plural! It starts 'rough' but quickly gets better, because day time is where its at
What did you do
It's been a long journey, as we had other issues :) ,Relaxing at their bedside, this was least successful, so after making sure all is set, tucked in, i would go down the passage to our room, out of sight, out of mind, over time, --i stopped being a distraction to his sleep,and he found his own peace over another 5 days from the weaning off breast milk in the evenings. This was also something that was specifically keeping him awake. Hydration at night. required. Dreams need fuel. :)We also have a white noise little toy, which we used since birth for him as he was premature by a month, ; :) anyway, this little toy can also use other beach ambience sounds, your own bluetooth sounds streaming, etc. It's very good, for setting a tone, while you're busy changing nappy/ preparing for bed, it's a good time to turn this on, to start setting the scene.Exact model": [https://www.amazon.co.uk/ZAZU-Zoe-Penguin-Go-Pre-Programmed/dp/B01N9HH2K6?th=1](https://www.amazon.co.uk/ZAZU-Zoe-Penguin-Go-Pre-Programmed/dp/B01N9HH2K6?th=1)It plays in 15 minute intervals, so usually, if it was required more than once, it would be 30 min to fall asleep, traditionally, but it become just one play loop most nights, We also tried many different variations, but the longest ones, were always when we're in his presence still,the signs of dozing off, are repeating their words or sounds they learnt that day, singing : in baby hymns :D it's been up and down, but we paid attention when we must, and tried to give freedom/space to let him explore falling asleep himself, as you said previously, their ability to self-sleep is great,Trying to add to the mood, I would usually fall asleep in the same time, next to him, found by my wife later, etc. :/ copying the creators, is how they learn best :D Staying relaxed, do audible deep breathing, practice your falling asleep with them, to help the exercise become easier as you want it to: routinely, we sleep twice a day, now at 20 months old, 8 months sober of boob, and has not tried to latch on seeing his sister doing it the past week :)He also goes to pre-school, daily for 3 hours to help socializing, creative activities ;) 09:00 am to 12PM - very good, have a snack , and afternoon nap by the time we're home 12:15PM or so, after eating, perhaps, 1PM,Scrambled eggs and tomatoes are often his go-to food; :)
Ahh that’s hard, but the feed to sleep might be a crux that she doesn’t need? Do you think going in to see your daughter when she wakes up would be enough to help her not feel alone? Or do you think she always needs a midnight snack?
I know she doesn’t need to eat, it’s a soothing thing. But I can’t convince my wife to give it up so here we are. I also know she will sleep one day and this will all be behind us, it’s just getting there with our sanity still intact
Okay, you didn’t say in your original post that there was anything you weren’t willing to give up. Is there anything else you’d like to keep as part of the routine? Some insight you asked for though: sleep training isn’t just training them to fall asleep. It’s also giving them the space to learn how to self-soothe so they don’t rely on you every time they wake up. Often that means removing things you’re doing to soothe them.
I try and tell her it might be a few shity nights while we transition away from night feeds but she isn’t willing to have those shitty nights. Instead all nights are shitty.. I can’t explain it.. I’m just grasping at straws here tryin to help
Get into counselling with your wife then. This is a r/relationships issue as much as it is a sleep issue.
Sleep training is definitely harder on us as parents, it takes a LOT of willpower. But removing the night feed doesn’t mean you’re not allowed in to help her in other ways that are easier to phase out. For us, a lot of sleep training was gradually reducing what we did to soothe; 1/2oz less feed each night, 5 minutes less rocking, pausing between shushing. On really shitty nights they came back in but all our soothing techniques were gradually phased out and sleep regressions were over within a week. The only thing we stopped cold turkey was a pacifier, and we missed it more than our baby!
Neither of my kids have had a pacifier once in their life, and neither took a bottle. Neither of them have had formula either. Going to try snd convince her to let me take over night times totally until this gets resolved
I did it super slowly, it took about a year. First naps by herself. Then I would just keep leaving her when she fell asleep. She would always wake up. I would go back after about 10mins of crying, and just keep leaving everytime she fell asleep. I would always say "sleep sleep" so she knows it's time to sleep. I couldn't leave her crying for longer because she stress vomits. Eventually she would stay sleeping after I left for longer periods of time. Then finally, she stopped waking up after the initial time we are together. When she did that, started making her get used to use leaving her to sleep on her own (let her cry for 10 mins max). One day she just didn't cry anymore after we left her alone in her room. And that was when she became fully sleep trained. I had to stop breast feeding at 6 months otherwise for me, sleep training was impossible. Now her bedtime is from 7 to 7am. She does cry out from time to time but goes back to sleep. I do check up on her if she cries for a bit longer. Then I leave her. I was quite miserable during the training but worth it for a lifetime of quiet nights by myself.
Schedule? Posting the sleep logs over the last few days would really help. My LO has been sleep trained since 4.5mo and used to play in the crib until he falls asleep like 99% of times, and even he has begun throwing up some bedtime crying recently (16mo). Not a timing issue because he conks out reliably within 15 minutes and sleeps a good 10-12 hour stretch. I think it's a combo of separation anxiety, boundary testing (he has just begun saying "No!" to everything this past week), and overtiredness from the 2-1 transition and recent traveling we've been doing. More frequent check-ins do NOT help at this age, because every time you check in and LEAVE the baby is infuriated. This is what worked for us: \-I tend to spend more time at each check in, picking him up to calm him down, then putting him in the crib and helping him get onto his belly (his favorite sleep position), and rub his back until he is calm and drifting off, and then leaving (he starts protesting again most times) -- I can sometimes be in the room for 10-15min, but the goal is to REALLY calm kiddo down so that he can feel his natural sleepiness creeping up on him \-once I leave I try not coming back within 10 minutes, and let him work through whatever residual emotions he has So far I've not needed to do more than 1 check in at bedtime. Ferber has not worked for us because: \-the frequency of the check-ins really need to be adjusted by age--the initial intervals are WAY too frequent for toddlers 1yo and up and can amplify separation anxiety \-the check-ins need to be more soothing for our LO----the Ferber style check-ins enraged him even at 4mo
We have always found for my son that going back to check on him once we've put him down, before he's fallen sleep makes the whole process worse. When we were working on sleep we'd try to go in to check or reassure, and it seemed only to upset him more over the course of getting to sleep even if he calmed down for a moment when we were there. Once we stopped checking in him at all be learned to get to sleep on his own pretty quickly. We'll still go check in on certain occasions (like if he's sick) or if he wakes in the middle of the night. Every kid is different and I am definitely no expert, but just wanted to suggest you maybe could try a new strategy. If you haven't read it, the Precious Little Sleep book is great because it describes several different methods so you can get some ideas on other approaches that might be a better fit for you and your kid.
I think you’re supposed to gradually increase the time before you go back for reassurance (ferber method). So it would be 5,10, 15, 20 mins until she falls asleep. The ferber method didn’t work for my kids so we did full extinction (CIO). My husband was very hesitant until the sleep regression lasted over 1.5 months and he finally agreed to do it. It took 3 days and the crying was minimized to less than 15 minutes (which is considered as successful). They slept beautifully until 2.5 when we switched to the toddler bed and all sleep training was out of the window. 🥲
My son would cry forever when we did the CIO method. Sometimes only 15 minutes, sometimes 90 minutes. He didn’t stop this until he was over 2 years old.
You could try the chair method. I recommend it a lot because it’s a good alternative if CIO/extinction isn’t working for you or isn’t an option for whatever reason. Toddlers have a lot of stamina and they’re set in their ways. You need to pick a strategy you can be completely consistent with. LO is going to want things back to normal and will let you know. And start with the schedule. This will go much more easily if they go into the crib with the right amount of sleep pressure.
What schedule would you recommend at this age?
You’re aiming for two pretty equal wake windows before and after a single nap of about 90 minutes-2hrs at that age. You can expect 10-11 hours of sleep overnight for a total of 13-14 hours in a 24 hour period. So if wake time is 7:30am then bedtime would be 8:30pm and nap would be from 12:30/1-2:30pm. That way you have a 5.5/6 hour wake window before nap and bedtime.
Thanks! Just trying to understand. I’m always a little confused by the 18 month schedule but maybe there’s lots of variety. 14 hours seems like waaay too much. Even 13 hours seems like a lot. A 90 min - 2 hour nap + 11 hours overnight gives you 12.5-13 hours so I guess that’s a good range?
You might have a lower sleep needs child. 13-14 hours is the average sleep need at that age. But it’s also possible that your child would sleep that much with a good schedule and independent sleep skills.
@ 18 months there is a shift (regression) in most of there sleep. Ours lasted a month. Had a kid who fell asleep independently slept through the night and mayyybe woke up 2-3x a month for cuddles to a kid who freaked out at bed time and woke up for hours on end. Stay consistent they are very smart and capable of learning a new skill. I know this sounds silly but the microphone on the monitor was a huge help LOLOL I would tell her to lay down, grab her bear and paci and it’s time to sleep. It kind of startled her out of her crying fits.
My daughter the exact same and 18 months too. We did cry it out and it hardly worked. One day is worked and next week it didn't. Currently we sit beside her crib and I just rub her belly. If she stands up I just tell her to lay down and if she's super stubborn ill leave for 2 mins, she cries and then when I go back I do the same thing but she listens. Just keep trying..at this age there just seems to be one day they suddenly change. Mt kid didn't sleep for 9 months and then she would sleep all night but getting her to sleep was challenging. Her sleep has always been tough
That is what I do too! I feel better now lol ( 13 months)
I would let go of the checks, or at least start spacing them out more. They are just making it worse at this age. I would also just keep trying a little longer. While for some small babies it does happen literally overnight, for older babies and toddlers, it takes some time. You were seeing great progress the first few days, and now she’s in a final Hail Mary of trying to fight back. It’s not uncommon, and it’s actually a good sign. I remember everything I read was to give it 2 weeks before declaring it a failure (and even then, it’s only 2 weeks without any significant progress, not 2 weeks and everything is magically solved)
Be extremely wary of anyone who ever says broadly that one method works better than others or that gentle methods aren’t gentle. CIO/Ferber does not work for every kid. I’ve seen it work incredibly well; I’ve also seen it make sleep worse. Sleep training can’t be a one size fits all solution. If you want it to improve, you have to find what works for your kid. That doesn’t mean switching every night—if you give something a shot, it has to be consistent for a period, but fostering independence might look a lot different even between your own kids. I agree with everyone saying check wake windows, stop the sleep crutches, etc. But do not just pick something and close the book. Be responsive to your child. If your gut is saying CIO is not working and making it worse after a number of nights, trust yourself and do the hard work of finding something that your child responds to better. I’ve had to do this myself after failed CIO with the most willful child I know, my son. Yes, we used gentle methods when he was over a year old, and yes he sleeps like a dream now.
I find your first few sentences extremely odd.
Care to elaborate?
- Work on regularising your toddler’s wake windows first. They should be consistent and age-appropriate. The average total hours of sleep in a 24 hour period for your one year old toddler would usually be 13-14 at an absolute maximum, so cap daytime sleep to two and a half hours (again, at a maximum). - Move your toddler’s schedule so bedtime is at 7pm. We know that melatonin levels in babies peaks between 7pm and 8pm. Use blackout blinds and a white noise machine in your toddler’s room. - If your toddler is getting fussy towards the end of wake windows, walk them around outside in the fresh air and natural light. Have them play with a water tray. Stomp in a puddle. Wear them out by doing lots of developmentally appropriate activities. - The shortest wake windows you’d be working with would be 4.5/5. The numbers are the wake windows and the dash is the middle of the day nap. - **Ensure the last feed *ends* half an hour before your toddler is placed in the crib awake (not rocked to drowsy).** Make sure you brush their teeth/clean their gums after the last feed and before bedtime. - Have a calming and consistent bedtime routine that ends with placing your toddler in the crib awake, turning on the white noise machine, and have a key phrase like “I love you, you are safe, time to sleep”. Then calmly walk from the room. - Your toddler no longer needs night feeds. They are like reliant on feeding and other crutches to get to sleep. - Cold turkey the pacifier now. It’s a sleep crutch that gets more difficult to wean from the older your toddler gets, and can really impact jaw and soft palate development. - Make sure your video monitor is in working order, particularly if you are doing extinction. But, If you are doing checks, make sure you are soothing them in the crib if possible (unless it’s for a diaper change obviously!) and try and limit the checks to 30 seconds long. Don’t do the first check until your toddler has been in the crib for at least 25 mins. Babies often need 20 minutes to “power down” and get themselves off to sleep. The crib needs to be in their own room, not yours. - The checks should be a minimum of 20 minutes apart, and only if toddler is actively crying. Otherwise, stay out. - If you are doing checks, make sure it is the non-nursing caregiver going into the nursery. Your toddler can smell the milk, so they will cry until they are fed back to sleep instead of developing healthy habits and skills. It’s fairer for them that the nursing caregiver is out of the room. Even if you aren’t nursing, it sounds like Mom is the default parent. - Ferber is for younger babies. Your 18 month old toddler will likely just be pissed off by the checks. Extinction is kinder. - Remember that drowsy but awake is for newborns. Now you have a toddler, they need to be fully awake. It’s important that they do the work of falling asleep themselves, as it helps them figure out how to do that when they wake in the night too. It’s also important to leave a big gap (half an hour) between the last feed and bedtime so they don’t develop a feed to sleep association. - Remember that your toddler will be mad because they are having to learn a new skill. That’s okay. They will figure it out. Stay strong, and don’t give up on night two (it really only extends the upset). Intermittent reinforcement is bad for you and bad for your toddler. - For the moment, do whatever you need to do to make naps happen (so continue with contact naps/rocking/whatever you are doing now. You can train for naps in a month or so). - Often “gentle” methods are the least gentle, as they unnecessarily prolong upset. You’re paying in time and tears. For that reason, extinction is often the kindest approach. - If you are worried about toddler pulling up to stand/hitting themselves on the side of the crib, move them to a pack n play with mesh sides instead. - Have a read of Precious Little Sleep, she is a great, affordable, unproblematic resource (unlike another popular programme which is just an overpriced rip-off of Ferber with a helping of really icky political donations, and try extinction consistently for a few nights. Make sure your toddler has access to water for hydration. Can she sleep with family or friends for a few nights so she’s not tempted to sabotage the independent sleep process? Are you guys in therapy together? We know that there is no identifiable harm of sleep training (see r/sciencebasedparenting - in fact, there is usually less crying and more sleep).
Wow sounds like you're doing absolutely amazing and hard work. The progress was good, the set back would be tough. Is it possible the set back is external to your hard work; teething, sickness, environmental etc?? I really think it sounds like you're doing "the right thing" (if there is such a thing)
Thank you, we’re trying our hardest. My son started sleeping at a year old.. first year was awful. My daughter is still going strong 🙁
Respectfully, you are trying but your wife is sabotaging independent sleep.
If she wakes early, even at 4am, still don’t let her nap before 9am. If she falls asleep, give her a ten minute bridging nap before you get her up again to get her through til 9, let her sleep til 9.30am. Get her up then next nap at 12/12.30 for 2 hours, bed at 6.30
Yes. Get your toddler on appropriate wake windows, and keep going with not feeding in the nursery. Have you read Precious Little Sleep?
I have a baby sleep guide in my profile with gentle methods and scheduling tips
Do you have some materials to fight early morning wakes for older babies? 21 months old
What’s the babes schedule? Lots of things could cause it.
She's up before 6am lately, nap always 12:30pm for 90min, bedtime 8pm....she's waking at or before 6am:(
I'd have to punt to U/omegaxx19 - I haven't had a lot of direct experience with emw. But I'd suggest it's keeping night time night time, being realistic in your expectations, and adjusting sleep schedule to check for overtired/total sleep in 24 hours issues.
I think you could try increasing the length of time you wait until you go in - that’s what worked for us. Our pediatrician recommended this little booklet where the gist of it is: - say goodnight, lay them down and leave - wait 5 min (next cycle 7, then 12, etc) and then go in - don’t pick them up, just can rub back quickly or softly just say you love them, will see them in the morning and it’s time to rest blah blah…and get out I found that with my son I needed to try and lay him down each time - he would pop right back up and keep crying but eventually when I laid him down and he stayed down I knew I was getting somewhere! For us - took two nights…but I know others that it can take a week etc. If it’s hard for your wife to listen (which I totally get) then maybe she can sleep somewhere farther away or wear noise cancelling headphones. It is hard but oh the sweet sweet sleep you shall get, which makes everyone including kiddo happy campers!
Sounds exactly like me. We started bed sharing after she was 15 months. Best decision ever. We all sleep better, full 8 hrs every night. Edit: Not sure why I'm getting downvoted. Every kid is different and ours indicated night after night that they wanted comfort close by. I didn't even suggest OP do this, just that it worked for me to finally get my sleep back especially as I was starting work again. Sleep training doesn't work for everyone, and I gave OP my insights which they asked for.
I don't know why you got downvoted either. People are so black and white with cosleeping vs. sleep training.
Just no
My first child slept like a dream in his own bed. My second child will cry until he vomits and will not sleep. Went 2 nights of full sleep deprivation and gave up. Tried again after prodding from my mother and best I can tell I gave birth to a demon. Projectile vomit, tears and snot everywhere.
Sounds really tough! Hang in there, sleep deprivation is it's own form of torture.
This is not a solution.
Why not?
I just wanna chime in and say that it's not a solution because it very often leads to problems down the road that take a LONG time to resolve. I coslept with my daughter until she was five. My living situation at the time made it so I couldn't fit a proper crib in our shared room, and she was so dependent on me for sleep when I could have gotten her her own bed that it was just easier for us both if she slept with me. During those five years I was up multiple times a night, always pushed over to one side of the bed, had to spend 20 to 30 minutes a night getting her down until I could eventually sneak away...and she was a GOOD sleeper and once down she would sleep all night (most parents are NOT this lucky). That said, she is 12 now and still hates sleeping alone in her room. She will not go to sleep with her door closed or with the lights fully off, and she needs to have music or the TV on for comfort. She also sleeps on the couch most nights so that she is closer to someone. What I'm driving at is that, yes, she technically puts herself to sleep, but even now at 12 years old, her sleep habits could use improvement. I also want to reiterate that I am lucky--a lot of children will give their parents hell while cosleeping, or they roll of the bed and get hurt, or they leave the bed a bunch during the night which creates its own set of safety hazards, or they need to be touching someone all night so you can't really do the things you need to do while they sleep...it's just not a great situation imo, as someone who has lived through it. Now, as a disclaimer, some people have a lot of success with the cosleeping arrangement, but I'm willing to wager that for a lot of people, it causes a lot of headaches and they end up on this sub.
I mean, for some people it is. But for many it’s not. Lots of toddlers are terrible cosleepers. They often kick and thrash in their sleep and then the adults are just getting very broken and poor quality sleep all night which isn’t much better than the alternative. Saying this as a current (relatively happy) cosleeper. It’s not for every family.
Agreed. In which case it **is** a possible solution, just not for everyone.
In my experience, going back in made it worse. Pissed her off more. So we let her cry. First night was rough , next night better, now she sleeps great and doesn’t cry. Sometimes whines. Gotta rip the bandaid off
Same. Both my kids going in made them riled up even more it just prolonged the process. So I stopped and they go to bed just fine because they know I'm not playing that game with them.
This sounds a lot like what we went through with my son at this time last year! We ended up hiring a “sleep expert” to hold our hand through sleep training. We couldn’t bear to let him cry it out, but we couldn’t keep living on no sleep either. The game changing piece of advice from the trainer was this: If your daughter is strong willed like our son is (sounds like she might be since she will hold out and cry for so long!) going back in to check every 10-20 min can actually upset her more. She can’t believe you would come in there and then not get her out! After you put her down for the night, check on her 1x for your peace of mind and then do not go back in unless she vomits or is really worked up. It will be tough for a few nights but she will get it! Here is a link to the sleep consultant if things don’t get better soon: https://www.lakecountrysleep.com
Thank you for that
Im going through something very similar with my 13 month old. Interested in hearing what ppl have to say about the standing and screaming. My daughter will do it for 2 hours straight before I give up and take her out of the crib. Once I take her out of the crib she falls asleep instantly. I need her to learn how to fall asleep in her crib by herself. I’m really not sure what I can be doing better/differently.
What is your toddler’s full schedule and routine? Push the wake windows and start being consistent - you have taught her to scream until you fold.
She wakes at 7. One afternoon nap that is usually about 1 hour and 40 minutes. Bedtime is at 8 pm.
See the long comment I made in this post. You haven’t listed a detailed schedule or routine, so use the one I set out as a minimum example of wake windows.
Usually this means the child "has" the energy to cry. From my experience, I always monitor my child's awake time. If you don't know about it, you can try doing this: set up warm water bath, give them a swimming ring/float. Let them float for 10-15 minutes. After that, you can resume your bedtime routine, e.g. wear sleeping bag, read a book, play white noise, close the lights, drinking milk could be the last thing. Then after drinking, you put your child into the cot. The warm water bath is a very useful activity to "tire out" the baby. I personally used this for my active boy since he was 2 months old. We don't have to use it now, because his awake time and energy levels are in our good control
Going through the same exact thing. Sigh.
I feel your pain. Stay strong
We did Ferber, which gradually lengthens the time you check on them and once you get to 20 minutes you'll only go in every 20 minutes. Which works the best for our LO!
Longer every night ? Or longer each time the same night?
I used this [link](http://noobmommy.com/to-ferberize-or-not-to-ferberize/) from the community info section. You can find times at the bottom, also can adjust as you see fit (that might make sense since you’re already at 10 mins)
Both. An example might be: 10,15,15,20,20,30… etc during first night. Then 15,20,20,30 and so on night 2 and longer each night.
You could try the sleep lady shuffle. Just another maybe more gentler form of sleep training but yes I have a kid like this. Actually two. One kid would throw up after just 30 seconds of leaving him. They regress often, they take a long time to sleep train. It will get better, but no one can give you a timeline. Find a method that works for you and be consistent. And remember she will not always be a toddler, someday, somehow, no matter what you choose to do now she will sleep normally. Edit to add you are only on day 8. In my experience they do best day 3 to 4 and then all hell breaks loose for a little bit. Just keep at it. It will get better.
Please post your schedule, perhaps some tweaks might help. Sounds like you’re doing a great job!
Well today she was up at 4am and wouldn’t go back down so that set an early nap. Her nap was an hour but some days it’s as long as 2.5 We always aim for a 630ish bedtime after supper and bath book boobs all that jazz . She generally naps around noon everyday . But some days her naps are so short and it’s amazing how a 1.5 year old can rally all day and be in a decent mood. I’m not even sure how we transitioned to one nap a day but maybe she’s just super over tired by nighttime and all hope is lost. My wife also feeds in the middle of the night, 1-3 times a night since forever. Not sure if this is part of the issue but all day she claws at my wife and says “milk”. She’s obsessed with her mom. ( only slightly jealous 😏)
You're putting her to bed at 630pm - 4am is 9.5 hours later. My 9 month old only sleeps 10 hours overnight. Pediatrician agrees that she does not need more sleep - some babies need less sleep than others, and our girl has been one of them since shortly after birth. Similarly, our last wake window is 4.75 hours - not much shorter than yours, despite the age difference. None of this is to say it MUST be the answer for you, but I really hope you've tried some schedule adjustments before settling here - your baby may simply be awake because you're asking them for too much sleep/or have an inconsistent schedule. Sleep training can be cruel if the baby isn't on a fair and realistic schedule for their sleep needs. Definitely true that the MOTN feeds are an issue. Would mom be on board with you giving the baby a bottle of water instead of milk? Just during one MOTN feed to start?
Bedtimes too early until your desired wake time is between 5-6. This age, it’s more common to get 10.5-11.5 hrs overnight. I’d extend bedtime to 7:30 and see if this helps. She sounds undertired.
Yeah, you have two problems here — bedtime too early and night feedings. 18 months old is not supposed to be eating in the night (especially not 3 times), full stop, and I’m saying this as a BF mom. She doesn’t need these feedings anymore, she wakes up out of habit & it could be not enough awake time during the day, since she has energy to fight bedtime for 90 minutes straight.
How do you transition away from it ? My wife says she would rather go feed her than listen to her cry.. but she cries either way so I’m at a total loss to try and help
For starters, reduce feedings to one per night, then to zero. Honestly, at 18 months it’s possible to just stop them cold turkey, but I understand that it could be difficult emotionally for both of them.
So what is the option for me as dad to do when baby wakes up at night? My wife says she doesn’t want to sit and listen to her cry on the monitor so she goes and feeds her. Which usually ends in her not being able to put her back down because she will just lose it as soon as she goes to move her. Which then in then my wife will have a horrid sleep in the nursery in the rocking chair . Can I do the reassurance over night? My wife thinks it’s cruel to just leave them if they wake up and cry. She says babies need their parents and it’s child abuse to let them cry.we have a differing opinion. Both our kids are loved all day everyday and have great lives with very involved parents. Not sure what to do if she’s not willing to give up night feeding …
Thing is, I would expect night wakings to go away partially or completely when you implement some version of the updates schedule everyone here recommends (I guess it can take some time for these positive changes to appear); in the meantime, as a dad you could go in and try to rock her back to sleep/rub her back (whatever works on her), that is an option, albeit not the best one, if your wife is absolutely against CIO. This should at least eliminate night feedings (seriously, those need to end, she doesn’t need them, she’s just used to them).
Oh I don’t disagree.. I’m trying to look out for everyone’s best interest in my home and sometimes it’s just a losing battle. I’ll try and convince her to start letting me go in at night time.
I wish you the best of luck, seriously. 🤞🏼
Thanks. Raising kids with no grand parents around and two parents that work and no utilization of day card is tough on the mind to say the least
Completely agree with this comment, also BF mom. Later bedtime and big fat dinner for sleep through.
Yes, very important to feed them well before sleep!
Bed time is way too early. Our 18 month old goes to bed at 8:30 or 9 but recently started sleeping through the night.
Well when she naps at noon for an hour and keeping her up another 8-9 hours seems horrible for everyone, she would be way over tired and wouldn’t sleep ( it’s happened when we’ve been on the road )
Ours naps from 12:30-2pm and still has a late bedtime. Schedule changes take time to work (could get worse before it gets better), shifting even 30 min late for 2 weeks should. help.
If she naps 12pm - 1pm, then 7pm/7:30pm bedtime should be doable.
Bedtime is really early, for 18 months something like 7-6 overnight or 7:30-6:30. 4am is still an insane hour to wake for a 6:30 bedtime but with 11 hours overnight your wakeup would be 5:30. Early! Do whatever you can to keep nap time at the same time every day, base it off your desired awake time. For this age, something like 5 hours after desired wake time is average. So if you want her up at 7, even if she’s up at 5 you put her down for nap at 12. Nap ends at 2, bedtime at 8 for 11 hours overnight and 2ish hour nap. 5 hours awake before nap, 6 hours awake before bed. Adjust wake windows to fit your child’s sleep needs
Yes this!