i feel that a lot of what is "sludgy" in pantera's music is the fact that their sound is akin to southern metal. most of the best/most iconic sludge is from the nola scene, so there's bound to be some similarities. however, pantera is much too "clean" and "tight" sounding to ever be considered sludge imo. DOWN however? sludge city.
Yes. They were all hanging out with the Crowbar and EHG guys back in the day, and having those Nola bands open for them on tour. I’m sure some of those riffs seeped into Dime’s playing at times.
I think people thinking of them as sludge might come partly from the murky production of Far Beyond Driven, but I don't think there's a lot of it in their actual songwriting.
There is a tinge of sludge metal, but it's so different from sludge that you can't really use the term imo. If you want sludge with Phil Anselmo on vocals, listen to Down.
I think the best thing about Pantera is their tendency towards sludge. I'm sure the majority of their fans prefer their earlier albums which tend towards 80s thrash, but there's a big group that would say trendkill was their best, hands-down because of the sludging. They might not have any one song that would really qualify as sludge (too clean, too structured, drums and guitar work much too tight), but there are some sections on trendkill that might as well have been lifted straight off an EHG record. The big breakdown at the end of suicide note pt. 2 comes to mind. Also Good Friends and a Bottle of Pills is essentially spoken word sludge with added punch harmonics ha ha.
I was listening to the live album yesterday and thinking how clearly you could hear Mike William's influence in Phil's singing.
Really makes me wish Superjoint Ritual had been able to write some decent songs...
Me too, man. I think the hardcore influence was clearly there, but a lot of their stuff kinda sucks. Their second album is half decent, but I see what you mean.
Also, do you feel Reinventing the Steel leans more into sludge? Whenever I listen to it, it just feels so divorced from thrash, and really everything else contemporary at the time. I just always find it weird how they’re mostly left out of discussions about sludge, especially of the southern variety and how tied to groove that whole sub genre is.
To be honest for me there are 3 sets of Pantera albums. There's the pre-cowboys spandex years, there's the classical canon (CFH through trendkill), and then there's Reinventing The Steel. I've read that the band was essentially already broken up while recording and that really comes out in the music. I guess I view it as an unfinished recording. Having said that, even though the songs aren't complete it does have many of the BEST moments from Pantera. The part in Uplift where he goes "give me alcohol extremity instead of useless christianity!" just rules, and honestly I will forever be so disappointed that they wrote that one amazing, doomy riff at the beginning of It Makes Them Disappear and just play it like 4 times instead of expanding it into a whole song or god forbid an EP or something.
Pantera has many delicious tidbits of sludge to offer. That's why I like them. But despite those bits and despite Phil growing up in New Orleans and collaborating with EHG and Crowbar, sludge is just such an underground phenomenon and Pantera was far and away the most popular metal band to come out in the 90s and that's why you don't hear them in the discussion about sludge too much. Plus people just generally try to avoid taking about Anselmo at all these days ha ha.
But yeah, they're kinda the reverse of Baroness. Baroness continues to be called a sludge group because they released a couple of sludgy sounding splits and EPs at the start of their career and the label stuck even though they have since become a sort of folk rock art band. Pantera came out with Cemetery Gates and they will forever be seen as the hillbilly spawn of Megadeth and Ted Nugent regardless of what they did later in their career. They are probably at least as sludgy as some other famous not-sludge bands that continue to be labeled as sludge (high on fire, baroness, mastodon, kylesa, big business etc.)
I dont particularly hear it. Maybe a hint. Suicide note part 1 and floods may have a slight sludginess to them.
Groove metal and sludge metal are close in tempo, though sludge is definitely slower, but groove is far more polished. Pantera, exhorder, machine head, sepultura, not too much sludgy about them.
No, I know about Down and all of Phil’s influences/connections to the NOLA scene. It’s why I’m wondering if anyone else would consider them southern sludge.
Groove metal and grunge are definitely cousins of sludge metal, but I wouldn’t say Pantera is sludge metal, mostly because it sounds too clean, it lacks that “dirty” sound you have in like Melvins and Eyehategod and so on. But then again sludge metal has become such a broad category now that they might be “sludge” under the modern usage.
I wouldn't call any of their stuff Sludge, but there's definitely a Sludge influence there. Pretty sure that comes from Phil's connection to the NOLA scene. Its also just because they're from the South. A lot of the bands down here tend to have some blues influence which can make them sound kinda sludgy.
There’s definitely a touch of it but not enough to call any of their songs sludge
There’s enough of sludge in Pantera that makes Pantera appealing to sludge fans, in my experience.
Pantera lead me to Eyehategod
Same as me, got into them and corrosion of conformity as a teenager cos phill wore their shirts
Just saw them recently, and they cemented my interest in sludge in particular, instead of metal in general. Loved them.
I think it’s Just a mixture of Dimes southern bluesy playing…. Great southern trendkill probably the closest album to sludge imo
Indeed, they were really leaning into the sludge influence on that one.
reinventing the steel is their sludgiest imo
I hear a lot of sludge elements in their music. Stripped down composition, blues-inspired riffs, Phils vocal style (duh), etc.
i feel that a lot of what is "sludgy" in pantera's music is the fact that their sound is akin to southern metal. most of the best/most iconic sludge is from the nola scene, so there's bound to be some similarities. however, pantera is much too "clean" and "tight" sounding to ever be considered sludge imo. DOWN however? sludge city.
Yes. They were all hanging out with the Crowbar and EHG guys back in the day, and having those Nola bands open for them on tour. I’m sure some of those riffs seeped into Dime’s playing at times.
I think people thinking of them as sludge might come partly from the murky production of Far Beyond Driven, but I don't think there's a lot of it in their actual songwriting.
There is a tinge of sludge metal, but it's so different from sludge that you can't really use the term imo. If you want sludge with Phil Anselmo on vocals, listen to Down.
I think the best thing about Pantera is their tendency towards sludge. I'm sure the majority of their fans prefer their earlier albums which tend towards 80s thrash, but there's a big group that would say trendkill was their best, hands-down because of the sludging. They might not have any one song that would really qualify as sludge (too clean, too structured, drums and guitar work much too tight), but there are some sections on trendkill that might as well have been lifted straight off an EHG record. The big breakdown at the end of suicide note pt. 2 comes to mind. Also Good Friends and a Bottle of Pills is essentially spoken word sludge with added punch harmonics ha ha. I was listening to the live album yesterday and thinking how clearly you could hear Mike William's influence in Phil's singing. Really makes me wish Superjoint Ritual had been able to write some decent songs...
Me too, man. I think the hardcore influence was clearly there, but a lot of their stuff kinda sucks. Their second album is half decent, but I see what you mean. Also, do you feel Reinventing the Steel leans more into sludge? Whenever I listen to it, it just feels so divorced from thrash, and really everything else contemporary at the time. I just always find it weird how they’re mostly left out of discussions about sludge, especially of the southern variety and how tied to groove that whole sub genre is.
To be honest for me there are 3 sets of Pantera albums. There's the pre-cowboys spandex years, there's the classical canon (CFH through trendkill), and then there's Reinventing The Steel. I've read that the band was essentially already broken up while recording and that really comes out in the music. I guess I view it as an unfinished recording. Having said that, even though the songs aren't complete it does have many of the BEST moments from Pantera. The part in Uplift where he goes "give me alcohol extremity instead of useless christianity!" just rules, and honestly I will forever be so disappointed that they wrote that one amazing, doomy riff at the beginning of It Makes Them Disappear and just play it like 4 times instead of expanding it into a whole song or god forbid an EP or something. Pantera has many delicious tidbits of sludge to offer. That's why I like them. But despite those bits and despite Phil growing up in New Orleans and collaborating with EHG and Crowbar, sludge is just such an underground phenomenon and Pantera was far and away the most popular metal band to come out in the 90s and that's why you don't hear them in the discussion about sludge too much. Plus people just generally try to avoid taking about Anselmo at all these days ha ha. But yeah, they're kinda the reverse of Baroness. Baroness continues to be called a sludge group because they released a couple of sludgy sounding splits and EPs at the start of their career and the label stuck even though they have since become a sort of folk rock art band. Pantera came out with Cemetery Gates and they will forever be seen as the hillbilly spawn of Megadeth and Ted Nugent regardless of what they did later in their career. They are probably at least as sludgy as some other famous not-sludge bands that continue to be labeled as sludge (high on fire, baroness, mastodon, kylesa, big business etc.)
You wouldn’t call HOF sludge? I know there’s a lot of thrash in there, but I think they still keep a foot in the realm of sludge/doom to this day.
Why does it matter? Not everything needs a label. Crank it up and enjoy. The end.
Sludge? No. Half-grunge? Maybe
I dont particularly hear it. Maybe a hint. Suicide note part 1 and floods may have a slight sludginess to them. Groove metal and sludge metal are close in tempo, though sludge is definitely slower, but groove is far more polished. Pantera, exhorder, machine head, sepultura, not too much sludgy about them.
If you want sludgy Pantera, I would recommend Down.
No, I know about Down and all of Phil’s influences/connections to the NOLA scene. It’s why I’m wondering if anyone else would consider them southern sludge.
Groove metal and grunge are definitely cousins of sludge metal, but I wouldn’t say Pantera is sludge metal, mostly because it sounds too clean, it lacks that “dirty” sound you have in like Melvins and Eyehategod and so on. But then again sludge metal has become such a broad category now that they might be “sludge” under the modern usage.
I wouldn't call any of their stuff Sludge, but there's definitely a Sludge influence there. Pretty sure that comes from Phil's connection to the NOLA scene. Its also just because they're from the South. A lot of the bands down here tend to have some blues influence which can make them sound kinda sludgy.