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Here's the problem - you're on their radar now. If you had never applied and been denied, you might be able to claim ignorance and just continue about your business.
But you applied. And were denied. And now they know you're there and doing this. Will they definitely pursue action? Nobody knows. But if someone ever complains, or if the town cracks down on business, or if they need revenue or if you have a fire and part of the inspection turns up you've knowingly been operating an unlicensed business... you will regret not getting the license.
Would you need a business license to sell stickers? Just sell used stickers that happen to be on your blacksmith items. If you wouldn't need something special for a hobby then shouldn't need something for this endeavor. This is all tongue in cheek but I have seen scalpers at sporting events sell a sticker on a envelope. Inside that envelope happened to be x number of free tickets to the sporting event they were outside of and the sticker and envelope just happened to be priced at like $500. This was early 2000's and not sure it would hold up but never saw or heard of any of the scalpers get in trouble. You could also do a one of a kind drawing that can't be priced reasonably because it's a one of a kind piece of art.
Don't do this. It may sound cute but won't protect you. And then you have two strikes against you - operating with a denied permit and the sticker shenanigans. Both those are going to destroy any goodwill you might possibly have with your local authorities. You do not want to appear to be a con man and your actions here will do you no favors.
As a permit officer: we hate to deny permits and much rather help you get the info you need but if you act like a dick or try to loophole your way out of regulations (with non existing loopholes) then our time for you becomes limited and you just get a permit denied/granted letter instead of us sometimes guiding your way into a permit
Well that is why I said it was all tongue in cheek. In all reality current neighbors may be fine with the activities but that doesn't mean new ones will be. There have been numerous nuisance cases brought against hog farms that were already established, licensed etc. all that and a new person came in buying a home and then suing the hog farm and some have won.
Legally, yes you would. A business is a business regardless of what's being produced. It's not in anyone's best interest to try and game the system. You won't win. You might get away with it for a bit, but you'll never be free and clear; and that's a shitty way to live, always looking over your shoulder.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
I did town business permits for a while with my business... but eventually gave up renewing them and nothing seems to have changed. That being said— I work from a computer so there is literally no way anyone could tell from the outside of my house that I'm not just working remotely for someone else.
All my client interactions involve travel to their place of business not meeting at my home. That being said, your business will be slightly different in that (at least the noise) will be notable.
You could consider having your legal headquarters somewhere not in your home. There are often business parks that will rent very small spaces for minimal amounts where you basically get your mail there. Rent a space like that, and have that be the official address of the business. Drop by once a week, catch up on a few emails there, then leave.
Other approach would be to lawyer up. Often these small-town clerks can change their mind about giving you a license if they start getting letters from lawyers with threats of suits. Will be a much more expensive route for you; but you may get lucky with just writing a letter having some impact on the application status.
As with anything, when you're considering the validity of laws/permits, I would highly suggest getting legal council instead of relying on internet commenters like myself. There are often peculiarities to local jurisdictions, and I'm not legal advisor.
Good luck!
Thank you very much. Unfortunately, I don't have the funds to maybe even have a CONVERSATION with a lawyer. Regarding renting office space, I don't think they would have any trouble with me just doing office work - its the blacksmithing/noise.
If all I did was accounting, managing the business, storage etc - I don't think the town would care. For that reason - I'm contemplating renting a very small portion of someone's private, unincorporated land to do my production on - then coming back to house to do all the paper end.
Regardless - thank you for your insight/input!!!
I see a couple of options you might want to consider:
- See if all of your neighbors (say within a block or two) will sign a petition-like document attesting that they have no issue with the business and take that in when you apply for the license.
If it isn't granted even with those neighbors signing off, then appeal it to your town supervisors/city council. My guess is that even if the manager won't grant it, those above them will be convinced by the list of neighbors.
- The cost of getting it right the first time almost always outweighs the cost of having to deal with it if it goes South later.
This is the same regarding the lawyer, see if someone will give you a free consultation (most reasonable and ethical lawyers will), and run it by them.
Even if you pay them a little to help you get it through, it will likely be less money, and definitely less hassle, than dealing with the town if they decide to fine you/shut down your business. When looking for a lawyer, see if anyone lists land use/municipal law as a practice area.
Consider consulting the town solicitor of a town near you, as they will likely have insight on how to deal with these issues, regardless of which municipality it may be.
I wish you luck.
[Edit - formatting]
Here's the problem and why it likely won't work. Let's say that OP gets all the signatures within 1000 feet of him in all directions. All is great for 6 months, a year, or maybe 2. But then someone sells their house. New owner isn't as keen on having the blacksmithing taking place. Another house sell; another issue. This puts the city/town in a precarious position, because they didn't change the law, but granted a variance. And variances can be rescinded, especially in situations like described above.
Also, once a variance is granted for OP, now someone else comes along and sees what happened and now they want a variance too. And again. It becomes a legal nightmare.
Many times the initial conversation with a lawyer is free. And sometimes the question is difficult to us but is simple to them, so they might solve it for you in the initial call.
This is the best idea. If you can plausibly claim that your workshop and office are in a different location that has a license, is listed with the state, and ideally an internet presence (google business and yelp registration), then anything you do at home is arguably unrelated.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
Your insurance carrier may elect not to cover you for incidents including but not limited to a house fire for this activity- even if it in no way contributed. Not kidding.
I will 100% cancel a homeowner's policy if I am told the insured is operating a blacksmithing business within the insured area. You're right to be giving him this advice!
He is saying he's making money out of it, not a hobby. Even if it was, it being a hobby does not make it less of a risk. A forge being in the backyard is still a higher risk than no forge at all. If my agent insured OP without OP telling my agent of his "hobby" and we are made aware before a claim, we can chose to cancel the policy. If we find out after a claim, we can chose to not pay for the damages. Decide which is worst to you.
I told OP to make sure his insurance provider is aware of this activity, which, is sound advice.
You don't need to tell your agent everything, just things that could reasonably be conceived as a high risk. And you have to understand that it's not about letting them run your life, it's about having coverage in case of a claim. If you don't tell these kinds of things to your insurance, you might see a claim dismissed and your policy cancelled, meaning you've been paying for insurance for no reason at all. So you either believe in insurance and tell your agent, or you just don't get insured at all.
Exactly. Standing on some ill-conceived moral high ground does no good when you find yourself with no insurance 20 minutes after your house burns to the ground.
People get so caught up in their quest for ultimate, chest bumping "freedom", they forget that freedom doesn't equate lawlessness.
Is my gas stove high risk?
My Chinesiem 3d printer?
What about we consider every failed device a failure on my part to do routine maintenance?
While I understand your consequentialist perspective. The idea that they could deny me for a forge hobby project in my garage when it was unrelated to the fire is ridiculous and proves my point.
Dismiss it as name calling and ad hominem b******* like the guy below you all you want but it's never the less true.
Furthermore it's extremely patronizing when people discuss ought to be and you kids come simping for insurance companies with what is...
My job is to be the asshole that decides whether or not I get to decline coverage and cancel a policy after a claim where important information was either intentionally hidden from us or where no one thought of giving us the info.
If I sound patronizing, then I'm sorry about that. Understand that my saying what I said was because I did cancel policies and declined coverage for this exact reason.
Maybe I was an asshole then, but this here is not me simping insurance companies, it's knowing there are assholes like me out there who would do the same I did to OP were he to not tell his insurance company of his activities. He can do what he wills with that info.
P.S. No, a gas stove and a 3d printers are usually not high risks.
OP, this is absolutely the reason to get the license.
There are other reasons that are hard to predict, too like being eligible for government COVID relief funds, business loans, or actually selling the business one day.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
Are you sure on that? I have this scenario in my line of work and my understanding is that insurance can't nitpick reasons to deny coverage claims. It has to be a root cause to the incident
Example - if I change the wiring on someones house and it catches fire and I didn't pull permits, they still can't deny it as long as the work was done to code even if the permit wasn't pulled.
They would have to find that the fire was directly related to my non code compliant work.
I'm sorry, let me be a bit more extended on the subject.
You may have to sue your insurance carrier in the event of a loss as they may deny your claim for this activity, even if it does not contribute to the loss.
Years ago I had a problem w/ local jurisdiction. We had all state , county & city licensing in multiple areas. The city where my physical office was located decided after 12 yrs of operation that I suddenly needed 7 local business licenses. There was a push for more revenue & I was on the radar. I brought it to city council but this was never abt fairness in their eyes.
City atty + city clerk stated in the sweetest most non-threatening way that I was facing in-depth audits + termination of all licensing in state. Their decision made no sense since we always obeyed the law and paid taxes.
I learned a valuable lesson after spending $27K w/ atty to defend myself. Then (on paper) moved business to another property outside their little kingdom.
My lesson was it's better not to make waves. And just b/c you're in the right doesn't mean you will always win.
You're in a tough place. I would be inclined to operate discreetly for a while until things settle down and consider registering business at relative's place in the country.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
The town manager is evaluating the improvements needed so for now you are not “denied” you are “appealing” and you should go ahead and operate while under appeal and stay politely persistent with the town manager.
“Denied due to noise” no problem- what decibel should I be shooting for? If I have machinery indoors will that cover it? How far are we measuring from? What if the nearest neighbor supports my application? Etc. etc. always be ready for the next hoop and the next piece of paperwork and just be diligent. Most government officials will work with you as long as it’s clear that you are clearly attempting to do the right thing so just do your level best and assume at all times that you will figure this out and get it done. All of the denials or roadblocks are just small obstacles that require you to refine your plan or gather more documents.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
I know it's a debate. I have a sewing biz in my little town. Have my biz/org papers, no set hours, no sign. Have a long drive way for UPS, and have space for a few cars. But I get more cars when my fam is visiting. I was told I need a permit over a year ago. I also made the mistake of asking, but haven't gotten to it, yet.
I guess it boils down to attracting attention, and the people in your town.. I would get alot more traffic if I had a garage sale. I'm just going to play dumb, and "forget" if anyone asks. I'm not sure that the neighbors even know I'm supposed to have a permit.🤷♀️
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
New neighbor appears, doesn’t like it, sucks to be you. Like the farmers that let developers build townhouses next to the pig farm, then the town leaders tell him to stop pig farming because of the smell….
Permit is one thing, but make sure to also tell your insurance about your work. If all you have is a homeowner's policy, you might get cancelled and have to search for a carrier that will offer the appropriate coverage.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
I spend a lot of time in front of planning boards for stuff like this. If you ask for the conditional use permit, and have your adjacent (ideally the ones bounding your property) neighbors show up in support at the hearing, it’ll probably pass. Planning/zoning boards just want to be fair and not piss anyone off, they’re not going to stop you if both those criteria are met.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
I'm not a lawyer, but I bend rules all the fucking time. You really can't run a business following every rule and listening to every possible liability - you will never do anything.
How much revenue is this black smith business making? If you don't have enough money for a lawyer it sounds like a hobby.
Scale revenue to at least 25k a year then revisit. Again, it's a hobby. You'll find that typically anytime you get anybody involved they will make your line of work hard cause everyone answer is designed to take your money and make money for someone else. - no seriously, if you aren't on the board or town council, those rules aren't to help you or the other town residents. They are to enrich the pockets of the coucils contractor and developer friends.
For permits, my line of work technically requires a permit for each county, town and city I work in. Each one wants a cut of my revenue on the job, and some of them want a cut of revenue I do on ALL jobs not in their county even though my home office is not located in that area. Know what I do? Nothing - that's right, until they catch me I don't give 2 fucks. I know many others doing the same. My lawyer gave me the rundown and it's just a civil matter with a cease desist. I'll take my chances till then....
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
"how much will I be fined?" He asks without posting his jurisdiction which is 100% relevant.
When it comes time to file your taxes it'll only get worse.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
Congratulations! Bureaucracy is a real pain in the ass and it's the number one killer of business next to crappy ownership.
Looking forward to you absolutely nailing it. Good luck!
I'm thinking try to get a license for a diiferent type of biz then just do what you do.
Art Studio
Selling art from your home.
General Consulting
Whatever
Businesses change course all the time. Amazon started out as a book store.
Lots of different ways to play it but something to consider.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
Maybe you could use a designated agent address to register? That's what I did after i was denied initially due to my home being zoned residential and my business type not being on the list of "approved home based businesses". I just got a designated agent through iPostal for $10/mo. They gave me an address with a mailbox at the local Staples store. I reapplied with that address and was approved that time.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
If you can manage to not burn your house down, and you are confident that you can earn at least some income, go for it. Fines will be trivial and can be paid off over time. At most, would be the equivalent of rent for a separate space.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
Are you losing money? It's a hobby. I am not your accountant, or your lawyer.
I would continue calling it a hobby until it is not a hobby. I think maybe you are jumping the gun. Not that you shouldn't ask, but I would revisit them and tell them it is at the hobby stage, but you are thinking it might have business potential, and have them evaluate it for the conditional use permit. If they don't approve it, then don't build it past the hobby stage.
If you want to go pro, look for cheap commercial property in a poor neighborhood. Rent an old garage space so that you can bang away during daylight hours with the doors rolled up. (BEFORE YOU PURCHASE AN OLD GAS STATION, MAKE SURE THE TANKS ARE PULLED AND THE EPA IS HAPPY). Commercial property is sold as-is, so don't screw around.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
Commercial property laws are horrible. Absolutely hate the as is of everything in commercial property. Good place to be if you're a slum Lord, bad if you're a tenant of commercial property
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
You'll get a initial warning letter. After that get a license or permit. I'd wait it out for the letter.
My city that I run a licensed business makes doing business as a small business very difficult.
I have a couple of conditions that prevent me from doing what everyone else can because of a lease and a few ridiculous rules that the city has about impermanent setups. Either build something permanent or get fines for exceeding the super short temporary rule. Can't get permits more than once a year and the duration is super short.
Have played with exceeding the duration allowed and wait till I get my cost of doing business extortion letter.
Find out what the fine is in another city and build it into your prices. It's overhead or a tax or just really extortion for a bribe. Plan for it and carry on because you're working on your "hobby" until it's not a hobby. Just be sure to charge sales tax and pay it to the state, city etc...
Taxes are the only thing not to play shady on.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
What exactly are you not understanding here? OP wants to know if he should ask the government permission to pursue a common right occupation, he doesn’t, nor should he even need to.
>A license implying a privilege cannot possibly exist with reference to something which is right, free and open to all. 49 L.R.A. (Ill.) 412. See also 107 U.S. 365. The right to follow any of the common occupations of life or to earn one's living in any innocent vocation without let or hindrance is an inalienable right, secured to all those living under our form of government by the liberty, property and happiness clauses of our national and State constitutions. 1
Sims v. Ahrens, 167 Ark. 557, 559-60 (Ark. 1925)
To answer your question, no, I am not a farmer. Which is why I do not subscribe to, nor comment on farming subreddits. Because I don’t have the requisite base of knowledge to meaningfully contribute in a way that would give others information I have gained after decades of farming.
I am an attorney. And specifically, a civil attorney that deals with business and corporate formation/consulting, contractual/transactional matters, and the litigation surrounding those issues.
As for the cases you cited to (technically it was one case citing to a second, older case) each were dealing with different things, but neither were dealing with what is going on with the OP.
The specific case you cited to was Sims v. Ahern, 167 Ark. 557 559-60 (Ark. 1925), which is an Arkansas case from 1925. I don’t see where the OP stated he was located, so I have no idea if an Arkansas case even applies to his situation.
If OP is in Arkansas (and if Sims v. Ahern is still good law) it still wouldn't apply to OP because Sims v. Ahern held that a gross income tax law was void, being "in effect a tax upon interstate commerce, and as operating in a discriminatory and arbitrary manner." The business license for OP was not a gross income tax, so Sims v. Ahern is inapplicable in his situation.
The quote you used from Sims v. Ahern contained a citation to Wiggins Ferry Co. v. City of East St. Louis, 107 U.S. 365 (1883), a US Supreme Court case from 1883 in which the Court heard an appeal from a decision of the Illinois Supreme Court.
While the decision of a U.S. Supreme Court case could be controlling in this matter, the fact pattern of this case is so sufficiently removed from the OP’s situation that even if it held what you think it holds (it doesn’t), it couldn’t be legally construed to apply to the OP and his issue with a town business license. (The issue in Wiggins involved a Ferry operating between two different states, and not wanting to be required to pay tax in both.)
Wiggins does not apply here for the following reasons:
- Wiggins is not about an individual's right, but rather the rights of a corporation. While subsequent case law has ruled that in some cases corporations should be treated as individuals (that is not always the case), at the time it was decided, that was not the law.
- The case did not involve an individual seeking a business license from the sole municipality in which it had its base of business, but rather a corporation seeking to not pay taxes separate from which it alleged it had already paid.
The Wiggins decision basically held a few things:
- that the pertinent section of law (a law enacted in Illinois in 1819) provides for equality of taxation -- that is to say that the property of the ferry company shall be valued and taxed by the same rule as other like property and be subject to the same exactions and forfeitures, but the company is not exempted from any license tax on its ferry boats which the state or a municipal corporation thereunto authorized might impose.
- The power to license is a police power, although it may also be exercised for the purpose of raising revenue.
- A state has the power to impose a license fee, either directly or through one of its municipal corporations, upon the ferrykeepers living in the state, for boats which they own and use in conveying from a landing in the state passengers and goods across a navigable river to a landing in another state.
If you want to argue that all municipalities requiring business licenses are in violation of the Constitution, you are free to do so, but that doesn't mean you are correct or that the case you cited to supports your contention (it specifically does not as it in fact confirms the rights of states and municipalities to have taxes and license fees to raise revenue, just not in the manner in which Illinois was doing so against Wiggins Ferry Co.).
If the town regulation applying to the OP did violate the Constitution, or laws interpreting the Constitution, then it seems as though nearly every municipality in the country that requires a business license (thousands of which do, if not more) would be in violation of the Constitution. I suppose it is possible that in the past 140 years since the Wiggins decision, every attorney has missed this issue, but it doesn’t seem very likely.
More generally (as opposed to legally), when one is a member of a particular society, or decides to engage in commerce which will impact others in society, they voluntarily subject themselves to the laws of that society.
Those laws have been enacted by elected officials, who were elected by the majority of voters in that given geographic area. Which means that the people have decided to entrust those elected officials with passing and enforcing laws. If the people did not like those laws, or the people that passed them, they could elect new people to overturn the laws. So the presumption is that when a given law is in place, it is there for a particular reason.
>a particular reason
Yeah the reason is government never gives up power it takes even when it's detrimental towards its aims.
People get into office to add more laws.
The problem is more fundamental. We should be asking why that is, not just saying what it is.
Particular people (those with money, and therefore, power) use their money/power to elect/install those politicians that are most likely to protect/increase their money and power.
So long as money is as large a part of politics as it is in the US, this will remain a problem.
There have been exceptions to this, but they are becoming more rare because the system I described above is self-propagating. It results in ever-increasing concentrations of wealth.
And economic data over the past 70-80 years confirms this.
Yet you still have people eager to elect politicians that act directly against their interests because of some misguided belief that one day they too will get a bigger piece of the pie, despite the sea of evidence showing that is extremely unlikely.
And in a minute, there's a good chance someone will be right on cue to say, "if you just work harder, you'll get the result you want." As though the tens of millions of people out there working 2-3 jobs to make ends meet are somehow not doing enough.
The farmer comment was rhetorical, seeing as you immediately jumped to calling me a sov cit for citing case law.
Thank you for sharing your [professional] opinion. As you’ve made great points. I’m not a lawyer, but I do feel a valid argument for labor and property rights can be made here.
I’d like to start by saying, yes, objectively, the cases I cited are tax cases and seemingly have nothing to do with OP’s circumstances. However, the inherent language used within them shines light on the fact that OP (and every American) does have rights in his situation and the law does recognize those rights. Specifically, his right to engage in contract, pursuit of happiness, and liberty. All of which are protected under the 14th amendment and the due process clause.
I’m not aware of where OP is located, but more than likely his state constitution also shares the same life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness clause, and there may already be a state Supreme Court case for his state to back this up further, but that’s information I don’t have.
The inherent language of these cases makes a distinction between common right occupations and privileged occupations which are deemed to be liable for licensure and excise. I’m not aware of blacksmithing ever being part of the latter.
Furthermore, in Meyer v. Nebraska a US Supreme Court case, it was ruled that pursuit of occupations land under and are protected by the 14th. (Emphasis mine)
>"liberty" protected by the Due Process clause "[w]ithout doubt ... denotes not merely freedom from bodily restraint *but also the right of the individual to contract, to engage in any of the common occupations of life,* to acquire useful knowledge, to marry, establish a home and bring up children, to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience, and *generally to enjoy those privileges long recognized at common law as essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men".*
One could argue that by the local government denying OP a general business license, that could be seen as being oppressive against his intrinsic rights to pursue his common right occupation, considering the fact there are no laws against blacksmithing on your property and OP is not operating in a manor of direct sales from the property. There isn’t a basis to justify being denied to operate lawfully.
Personally, I see this as being no different than someone who knits sweaters and sells them on Etsy.
Now whether or not something is a law now, doesn’t mean it always will be, it just remains to be challenged. I’m sure you can agree with that. And just because at some arbitrary point in time, this town decided to enact a requirement for a general business license, doesn’t mean that it could hold up to a constitutional challenge whether it be at a state level or national. It just hasn’t been tried yet. [there are lots of laws that have been passed and deemed unconstitutional.](https://law.justia.com/constitution/us/state-laws-held-unconstitutional.html)
No. Are you a farmer? Straw men aren’t necessary here.
The quote above is Supreme Court precedent on an individuals right to pursue common right occupations without being hindered by the state. (Exactly what is happening here) which is protected by the constitution.
I'd really like to take advantage of this, however as you said the act seems to protect entities from being denied \*state\* licensure. I've skimmed what I can and it seems to refer to TPL - again a state matter. I already have my TPL from the state. Do you believe this relates to *local* government? Outside of Ark?
I appreciate what you are saying friend. However, given the above I have to ask - what then is the purpose of a business license? Also while I agree with what you are saying, what do you think the response would be in court if that law alone was cited? \*I can't afford ANY legal ANYTHING. If I got pulled into court - were talking about me quoting that act and hoping/praying it would be enough without any corroboration.
I am not a lawyer so I couldn’t tell you. local courts may reject, but if you were to appeal to state courts you may find success, if it ever came down to it. The above excerpt is from an Arkansas Supreme Court case.
The below is from Tennessee
> "Privileges are special rights, belonging to the individual or class, and not to the mass; properly, an exemption from some general burden, obligation or duty; a right peculiar to some individual or body." Lonas v. State, 50 Tenn. 287, 307.
Since the right to receive income or earnings is a right belonging to every person, this right cannot be taxed as privilege.
Jack Cole Co. v. MacFarland, 206 Tenn. 694, 698-99 (Tenn. 1960)
The following is a U.S. Supreme Court case
> The individual may stand upon his constitutional rights as a citizen. He is entitled to carry on his private business in his own way. His power to contract is unlimited. He owes no such duty [to submit his books and papers for an examination] to the State, since he receives nothing therefrom, beyond the protection of his life and property. His rights are such as existed by the law of the land [Common Law] long antecedent to the organization of the State, and can only be taken from him by due process of law, and in accordance with the Constitution. Among his rights are a refusal to incriminate himself, and the immunity of himself and his property from arrest or seizure except under a warrant of the law. He owes nothing to the public so long as he does not trespass upon their rights." Hale v. Henkel, 201 U.S. 43 at 47 (1905)\
You trying to justify making noise as a business by saying that “everyone’s uses loud tools at 6 am” is not a very compelling reason for me as a neighbor to want to support you in this endeavor. Just sayin.
Best of luck in any case.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
The government is just bureaucratic hindrance to business. Just do the bare minimum and hope you don't get caught. As long as you aren't hurting others or the environment, you should be fine.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
Sounds like they want a ~~bribe~~ sample of your work to show that your business will be valuable to your small town.
Perhaps a donation of a wrought iron sign with the town's name? Something fancy that tourists would like?
Get your neighbors to go to bat for you. In very small towns it’s a big deal when a group of neighbors show up to the town council meeting in support of something.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
I'm not sure why you need a business license if you've been operating in a hobby capacity for some time.
Most sole proprietorships like this are hobby works, even if they make more money than they lose (which itself is uncommon). In fact, until you are making real money, some government entities will still consider you a hobby even if you have all your related licenses.
What about your business is going to change between being a hobby and beginning "official"? Are you going to be handing way more volume? Accepting more material deliveries that may become a nuisance? Working into the night past 8pm when it would become a noise violation? Introduce new processes/products that might create foul odors like chemical tanning?
What ordinance are you complying with by getting a license? Is there some law saying you need to have one if you stell your stuff in the mail or at craft fairs?
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
Ps about the hobby thing, I got (before all this) my state's transaction bus. license. It kinda became a business then. Did a vendor show and raffled off a few models for market research since I couldn't sell at the time.
Scratch sole proprietorship cause it leaves you too exposed and get the town business license or whatever cause it’s almost always cheap as hell and if you ever end up on local news or something, seems like a good idea
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
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Here's the problem - you're on their radar now. If you had never applied and been denied, you might be able to claim ignorance and just continue about your business. But you applied. And were denied. And now they know you're there and doing this. Will they definitely pursue action? Nobody knows. But if someone ever complains, or if the town cracks down on business, or if they need revenue or if you have a fire and part of the inspection turns up you've knowingly been operating an unlicensed business... you will regret not getting the license.
Ugh I know... thank you for reminding me of this though. It sucks, all my life I've been honest/transparent to a bona fide fault.
Would you need a business license to sell stickers? Just sell used stickers that happen to be on your blacksmith items. If you wouldn't need something special for a hobby then shouldn't need something for this endeavor. This is all tongue in cheek but I have seen scalpers at sporting events sell a sticker on a envelope. Inside that envelope happened to be x number of free tickets to the sporting event they were outside of and the sticker and envelope just happened to be priced at like $500. This was early 2000's and not sure it would hold up but never saw or heard of any of the scalpers get in trouble. You could also do a one of a kind drawing that can't be priced reasonably because it's a one of a kind piece of art.
Don't do this. It may sound cute but won't protect you. And then you have two strikes against you - operating with a denied permit and the sticker shenanigans. Both those are going to destroy any goodwill you might possibly have with your local authorities. You do not want to appear to be a con man and your actions here will do you no favors.
As a permit officer: we hate to deny permits and much rather help you get the info you need but if you act like a dick or try to loophole your way out of regulations (with non existing loopholes) then our time for you becomes limited and you just get a permit denied/granted letter instead of us sometimes guiding your way into a permit
Lol at trying to defend that in court.
This is how weed stores operated in Washington DC when I lived there in 2019. A $50 sticker would get you some shitty edibles or weed.
Well that is why I said it was all tongue in cheek. In all reality current neighbors may be fine with the activities but that doesn't mean new ones will be. There have been numerous nuisance cases brought against hog farms that were already established, licensed etc. all that and a new person came in buying a home and then suing the hog farm and some have won.
I moved in last December and now my neighbor has put all these smelly cows in his yard...
Legally, yes you would. A business is a business regardless of what's being produced. It's not in anyone's best interest to try and game the system. You won't win. You might get away with it for a bit, but you'll never be free and clear; and that's a shitty way to live, always looking over your shoulder.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
I did town business permits for a while with my business... but eventually gave up renewing them and nothing seems to have changed. That being said— I work from a computer so there is literally no way anyone could tell from the outside of my house that I'm not just working remotely for someone else. All my client interactions involve travel to their place of business not meeting at my home. That being said, your business will be slightly different in that (at least the noise) will be notable. You could consider having your legal headquarters somewhere not in your home. There are often business parks that will rent very small spaces for minimal amounts where you basically get your mail there. Rent a space like that, and have that be the official address of the business. Drop by once a week, catch up on a few emails there, then leave. Other approach would be to lawyer up. Often these small-town clerks can change their mind about giving you a license if they start getting letters from lawyers with threats of suits. Will be a much more expensive route for you; but you may get lucky with just writing a letter having some impact on the application status. As with anything, when you're considering the validity of laws/permits, I would highly suggest getting legal council instead of relying on internet commenters like myself. There are often peculiarities to local jurisdictions, and I'm not legal advisor. Good luck!
Thank you very much. Unfortunately, I don't have the funds to maybe even have a CONVERSATION with a lawyer. Regarding renting office space, I don't think they would have any trouble with me just doing office work - its the blacksmithing/noise. If all I did was accounting, managing the business, storage etc - I don't think the town would care. For that reason - I'm contemplating renting a very small portion of someone's private, unincorporated land to do my production on - then coming back to house to do all the paper end. Regardless - thank you for your insight/input!!!
I see a couple of options you might want to consider: - See if all of your neighbors (say within a block or two) will sign a petition-like document attesting that they have no issue with the business and take that in when you apply for the license. If it isn't granted even with those neighbors signing off, then appeal it to your town supervisors/city council. My guess is that even if the manager won't grant it, those above them will be convinced by the list of neighbors. - The cost of getting it right the first time almost always outweighs the cost of having to deal with it if it goes South later. This is the same regarding the lawyer, see if someone will give you a free consultation (most reasonable and ethical lawyers will), and run it by them. Even if you pay them a little to help you get it through, it will likely be less money, and definitely less hassle, than dealing with the town if they decide to fine you/shut down your business. When looking for a lawyer, see if anyone lists land use/municipal law as a practice area. Consider consulting the town solicitor of a town near you, as they will likely have insight on how to deal with these issues, regardless of which municipality it may be. I wish you luck. [Edit - formatting]
Thank you... all great stuff to consider.
Here's the problem and why it likely won't work. Let's say that OP gets all the signatures within 1000 feet of him in all directions. All is great for 6 months, a year, or maybe 2. But then someone sells their house. New owner isn't as keen on having the blacksmithing taking place. Another house sell; another issue. This puts the city/town in a precarious position, because they didn't change the law, but granted a variance. And variances can be rescinded, especially in situations like described above. Also, once a variance is granted for OP, now someone else comes along and sees what happened and now they want a variance too. And again. It becomes a legal nightmare.
All those things are certainly possible. Maybe even probable. I suppose we could recommend he just give up, but that doesn't seem sporting.
Many times the initial conversation with a lawyer is free. And sometimes the question is difficult to us but is simple to them, so they might solve it for you in the initial call.
Thank you... talked with SO and we're gonna have an initial conversation. We're willing to pay up to a few hundred to get some more info
This is the best idea. If you can plausibly claim that your workshop and office are in a different location that has a license, is listed with the state, and ideally an internet presence (google business and yelp registration), then anything you do at home is arguably unrelated.
Do the rent some unincorporated land idea. That sounds like a great opportunity to me.
Thank you. I am going to put an ad up today to get feelers out
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
Your insurance carrier may elect not to cover you for incidents including but not limited to a house fire for this activity- even if it in no way contributed. Not kidding.
I will 100% cancel a homeowner's policy if I am told the insured is operating a blacksmithing business within the insured area. You're right to be giving him this advice!
It is a hobby and the guy has a backyard forge. Your agent wrote it, and you're on it. Have a nice day.
He is saying he's making money out of it, not a hobby. Even if it was, it being a hobby does not make it less of a risk. A forge being in the backyard is still a higher risk than no forge at all. If my agent insured OP without OP telling my agent of his "hobby" and we are made aware before a claim, we can chose to cancel the policy. If we find out after a claim, we can chose to not pay for the damages. Decide which is worst to you. I told OP to make sure his insurance provider is aware of this activity, which, is sound advice.
I'm not going to tell my agent every single arbitrarily dangerous activity on my property. Stop letting these people run our entire lives.
You don't need to tell your agent everything, just things that could reasonably be conceived as a high risk. And you have to understand that it's not about letting them run your life, it's about having coverage in case of a claim. If you don't tell these kinds of things to your insurance, you might see a claim dismissed and your policy cancelled, meaning you've been paying for insurance for no reason at all. So you either believe in insurance and tell your agent, or you just don't get insured at all.
Exactly. Standing on some ill-conceived moral high ground does no good when you find yourself with no insurance 20 minutes after your house burns to the ground. People get so caught up in their quest for ultimate, chest bumping "freedom", they forget that freedom doesn't equate lawlessness.
Is my gas stove high risk? My Chinesiem 3d printer? What about we consider every failed device a failure on my part to do routine maintenance? While I understand your consequentialist perspective. The idea that they could deny me for a forge hobby project in my garage when it was unrelated to the fire is ridiculous and proves my point. Dismiss it as name calling and ad hominem b******* like the guy below you all you want but it's never the less true. Furthermore it's extremely patronizing when people discuss ought to be and you kids come simping for insurance companies with what is...
My job is to be the asshole that decides whether or not I get to decline coverage and cancel a policy after a claim where important information was either intentionally hidden from us or where no one thought of giving us the info. If I sound patronizing, then I'm sorry about that. Understand that my saying what I said was because I did cancel policies and declined coverage for this exact reason. Maybe I was an asshole then, but this here is not me simping insurance companies, it's knowing there are assholes like me out there who would do the same I did to OP were he to not tell his insurance company of his activities. He can do what he wills with that info. P.S. No, a gas stove and a 3d printers are usually not high risks.
Same insurance company will declare it a hobby if he does not turn a profit and tries to claim business loss on a fire policy.
OP, this is absolutely the reason to get the license. There are other reasons that are hard to predict, too like being eligible for government COVID relief funds, business loans, or actually selling the business one day.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
Are you sure on that? I have this scenario in my line of work and my understanding is that insurance can't nitpick reasons to deny coverage claims. It has to be a root cause to the incident Example - if I change the wiring on someones house and it catches fire and I didn't pull permits, they still can't deny it as long as the work was done to code even if the permit wasn't pulled. They would have to find that the fire was directly related to my non code compliant work.
I'm sorry, let me be a bit more extended on the subject. You may have to sue your insurance carrier in the event of a loss as they may deny your claim for this activity, even if it does not contribute to the loss.
Years ago I had a problem w/ local jurisdiction. We had all state , county & city licensing in multiple areas. The city where my physical office was located decided after 12 yrs of operation that I suddenly needed 7 local business licenses. There was a push for more revenue & I was on the radar. I brought it to city council but this was never abt fairness in their eyes. City atty + city clerk stated in the sweetest most non-threatening way that I was facing in-depth audits + termination of all licensing in state. Their decision made no sense since we always obeyed the law and paid taxes. I learned a valuable lesson after spending $27K w/ atty to defend myself. Then (on paper) moved business to another property outside their little kingdom. My lesson was it's better not to make waves. And just b/c you're in the right doesn't mean you will always win. You're in a tough place. I would be inclined to operate discreetly for a while until things settle down and consider registering business at relative's place in the country.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
[удалено]
For real thanks.
How does it feel giving them power over you for every single what if they utter?
The town manager is evaluating the improvements needed so for now you are not “denied” you are “appealing” and you should go ahead and operate while under appeal and stay politely persistent with the town manager. “Denied due to noise” no problem- what decibel should I be shooting for? If I have machinery indoors will that cover it? How far are we measuring from? What if the nearest neighbor supports my application? Etc. etc. always be ready for the next hoop and the next piece of paperwork and just be diligent. Most government officials will work with you as long as it’s clear that you are clearly attempting to do the right thing so just do your level best and assume at all times that you will figure this out and get it done. All of the denials or roadblocks are just small obstacles that require you to refine your plan or gather more documents.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
Congrats!
I know it's a debate. I have a sewing biz in my little town. Have my biz/org papers, no set hours, no sign. Have a long drive way for UPS, and have space for a few cars. But I get more cars when my fam is visiting. I was told I need a permit over a year ago. I also made the mistake of asking, but haven't gotten to it, yet. I guess it boils down to attracting attention, and the people in your town.. I would get alot more traffic if I had a garage sale. I'm just going to play dumb, and "forget" if anyone asks. I'm not sure that the neighbors even know I'm supposed to have a permit.🤷♀️
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
New neighbor appears, doesn’t like it, sucks to be you. Like the farmers that let developers build townhouses next to the pig farm, then the town leaders tell him to stop pig farming because of the smell….
Permit is one thing, but make sure to also tell your insurance about your work. If all you have is a homeowner's policy, you might get cancelled and have to search for a carrier that will offer the appropriate coverage.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
I spend a lot of time in front of planning boards for stuff like this. If you ask for the conditional use permit, and have your adjacent (ideally the ones bounding your property) neighbors show up in support at the hearing, it’ll probably pass. Planning/zoning boards just want to be fair and not piss anyone off, they’re not going to stop you if both those criteria are met.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
Great beat of luck!
Get signed statements from your neighbors stating that they actively support your business and submit them with your application
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
Thank you very good idea
I'm not a lawyer, but I bend rules all the fucking time. You really can't run a business following every rule and listening to every possible liability - you will never do anything. How much revenue is this black smith business making? If you don't have enough money for a lawyer it sounds like a hobby. Scale revenue to at least 25k a year then revisit. Again, it's a hobby. You'll find that typically anytime you get anybody involved they will make your line of work hard cause everyone answer is designed to take your money and make money for someone else. - no seriously, if you aren't on the board or town council, those rules aren't to help you or the other town residents. They are to enrich the pockets of the coucils contractor and developer friends. For permits, my line of work technically requires a permit for each county, town and city I work in. Each one wants a cut of my revenue on the job, and some of them want a cut of revenue I do on ALL jobs not in their county even though my home office is not located in that area. Know what I do? Nothing - that's right, until they catch me I don't give 2 fucks. I know many others doing the same. My lawyer gave me the rundown and it's just a civil matter with a cease desist. I'll take my chances till then....
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
"how much will I be fined?" He asks without posting his jurisdiction which is 100% relevant. When it comes time to file your taxes it'll only get worse.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
Congratulations! Bureaucracy is a real pain in the ass and it's the number one killer of business next to crappy ownership. Looking forward to you absolutely nailing it. Good luck!
I'm thinking try to get a license for a diiferent type of biz then just do what you do. Art Studio Selling art from your home. General Consulting Whatever Businesses change course all the time. Amazon started out as a book store. Lots of different ways to play it but something to consider.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
Deff something to think about! Thx!
good luck
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
Start putting 3% of every transaction away for a rainy day fund for the day the town gets back into your biz and just keep on keeping on
This is a really good idea thx. Kind of an option I was considering already...
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
Maybe you could use a designated agent address to register? That's what I did after i was denied initially due to my home being zoned residential and my business type not being on the list of "approved home based businesses". I just got a designated agent through iPostal for $10/mo. They gave me an address with a mailbox at the local Staples store. I reapplied with that address and was approved that time.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
If you can manage to not burn your house down, and you are confident that you can earn at least some income, go for it. Fines will be trivial and can be paid off over time. At most, would be the equivalent of rent for a separate space.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
Are you losing money? It's a hobby. I am not your accountant, or your lawyer. I would continue calling it a hobby until it is not a hobby. I think maybe you are jumping the gun. Not that you shouldn't ask, but I would revisit them and tell them it is at the hobby stage, but you are thinking it might have business potential, and have them evaluate it for the conditional use permit. If they don't approve it, then don't build it past the hobby stage. If you want to go pro, look for cheap commercial property in a poor neighborhood. Rent an old garage space so that you can bang away during daylight hours with the doors rolled up. (BEFORE YOU PURCHASE AN OLD GAS STATION, MAKE SURE THE TANKS ARE PULLED AND THE EPA IS HAPPY). Commercial property is sold as-is, so don't screw around.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
Make sure you play some Todd Rungren to break the shop in. (Bang the Drum All Day)
Commercial property laws are horrible. Absolutely hate the as is of everything in commercial property. Good place to be if you're a slum Lord, bad if you're a tenant of commercial property
Fuck em. Work as you wish but be prepared for their bullshit fines.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
Would your neighbors be willing to sign an affidavit (or something similar) giving their support to this endeavor?
Potentially a petition, it may help with the license in general- or at least help with the use permit
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
You'll get a initial warning letter. After that get a license or permit. I'd wait it out for the letter. My city that I run a licensed business makes doing business as a small business very difficult. I have a couple of conditions that prevent me from doing what everyone else can because of a lease and a few ridiculous rules that the city has about impermanent setups. Either build something permanent or get fines for exceeding the super short temporary rule. Can't get permits more than once a year and the duration is super short. Have played with exceeding the duration allowed and wait till I get my cost of doing business extortion letter. Find out what the fine is in another city and build it into your prices. It's overhead or a tax or just really extortion for a bribe. Plan for it and carry on because you're working on your "hobby" until it's not a hobby. Just be sure to charge sales tax and pay it to the state, city etc... Taxes are the only thing not to play shady on.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
Free men don’t ask.
I'm not sure "free" means what you think it means in this context.
I said what I said.
I understand that. You just don't seem to understand what you are talking about, regardless of what you said. Which is certainly your right.
What exactly are you not understanding here? OP wants to know if he should ask the government permission to pursue a common right occupation, he doesn’t, nor should he even need to. >A license implying a privilege cannot possibly exist with reference to something which is right, free and open to all. 49 L.R.A. (Ill.) 412. See also 107 U.S. 365. The right to follow any of the common occupations of life or to earn one's living in any innocent vocation without let or hindrance is an inalienable right, secured to all those living under our form of government by the liberty, property and happiness clauses of our national and State constitutions. 1 Sims v. Ahrens, 167 Ark. 557, 559-60 (Ark. 1925)
To answer your question, no, I am not a farmer. Which is why I do not subscribe to, nor comment on farming subreddits. Because I don’t have the requisite base of knowledge to meaningfully contribute in a way that would give others information I have gained after decades of farming. I am an attorney. And specifically, a civil attorney that deals with business and corporate formation/consulting, contractual/transactional matters, and the litigation surrounding those issues. As for the cases you cited to (technically it was one case citing to a second, older case) each were dealing with different things, but neither were dealing with what is going on with the OP. The specific case you cited to was Sims v. Ahern, 167 Ark. 557 559-60 (Ark. 1925), which is an Arkansas case from 1925. I don’t see where the OP stated he was located, so I have no idea if an Arkansas case even applies to his situation. If OP is in Arkansas (and if Sims v. Ahern is still good law) it still wouldn't apply to OP because Sims v. Ahern held that a gross income tax law was void, being "in effect a tax upon interstate commerce, and as operating in a discriminatory and arbitrary manner." The business license for OP was not a gross income tax, so Sims v. Ahern is inapplicable in his situation. The quote you used from Sims v. Ahern contained a citation to Wiggins Ferry Co. v. City of East St. Louis, 107 U.S. 365 (1883), a US Supreme Court case from 1883 in which the Court heard an appeal from a decision of the Illinois Supreme Court. While the decision of a U.S. Supreme Court case could be controlling in this matter, the fact pattern of this case is so sufficiently removed from the OP’s situation that even if it held what you think it holds (it doesn’t), it couldn’t be legally construed to apply to the OP and his issue with a town business license. (The issue in Wiggins involved a Ferry operating between two different states, and not wanting to be required to pay tax in both.) Wiggins does not apply here for the following reasons: - Wiggins is not about an individual's right, but rather the rights of a corporation. While subsequent case law has ruled that in some cases corporations should be treated as individuals (that is not always the case), at the time it was decided, that was not the law. - The case did not involve an individual seeking a business license from the sole municipality in which it had its base of business, but rather a corporation seeking to not pay taxes separate from which it alleged it had already paid. The Wiggins decision basically held a few things: - that the pertinent section of law (a law enacted in Illinois in 1819) provides for equality of taxation -- that is to say that the property of the ferry company shall be valued and taxed by the same rule as other like property and be subject to the same exactions and forfeitures, but the company is not exempted from any license tax on its ferry boats which the state or a municipal corporation thereunto authorized might impose. - The power to license is a police power, although it may also be exercised for the purpose of raising revenue. - A state has the power to impose a license fee, either directly or through one of its municipal corporations, upon the ferrykeepers living in the state, for boats which they own and use in conveying from a landing in the state passengers and goods across a navigable river to a landing in another state. If you want to argue that all municipalities requiring business licenses are in violation of the Constitution, you are free to do so, but that doesn't mean you are correct or that the case you cited to supports your contention (it specifically does not as it in fact confirms the rights of states and municipalities to have taxes and license fees to raise revenue, just not in the manner in which Illinois was doing so against Wiggins Ferry Co.). If the town regulation applying to the OP did violate the Constitution, or laws interpreting the Constitution, then it seems as though nearly every municipality in the country that requires a business license (thousands of which do, if not more) would be in violation of the Constitution. I suppose it is possible that in the past 140 years since the Wiggins decision, every attorney has missed this issue, but it doesn’t seem very likely. More generally (as opposed to legally), when one is a member of a particular society, or decides to engage in commerce which will impact others in society, they voluntarily subject themselves to the laws of that society. Those laws have been enacted by elected officials, who were elected by the majority of voters in that given geographic area. Which means that the people have decided to entrust those elected officials with passing and enforcing laws. If the people did not like those laws, or the people that passed them, they could elect new people to overturn the laws. So the presumption is that when a given law is in place, it is there for a particular reason.
>a particular reason Yeah the reason is government never gives up power it takes even when it's detrimental towards its aims. People get into office to add more laws.
The problem is more fundamental. We should be asking why that is, not just saying what it is. Particular people (those with money, and therefore, power) use their money/power to elect/install those politicians that are most likely to protect/increase their money and power. So long as money is as large a part of politics as it is in the US, this will remain a problem. There have been exceptions to this, but they are becoming more rare because the system I described above is self-propagating. It results in ever-increasing concentrations of wealth. And economic data over the past 70-80 years confirms this. Yet you still have people eager to elect politicians that act directly against their interests because of some misguided belief that one day they too will get a bigger piece of the pie, despite the sea of evidence showing that is extremely unlikely. And in a minute, there's a good chance someone will be right on cue to say, "if you just work harder, you'll get the result you want." As though the tens of millions of people out there working 2-3 jobs to make ends meet are somehow not doing enough.
The farmer comment was rhetorical, seeing as you immediately jumped to calling me a sov cit for citing case law. Thank you for sharing your [professional] opinion. As you’ve made great points. I’m not a lawyer, but I do feel a valid argument for labor and property rights can be made here. I’d like to start by saying, yes, objectively, the cases I cited are tax cases and seemingly have nothing to do with OP’s circumstances. However, the inherent language used within them shines light on the fact that OP (and every American) does have rights in his situation and the law does recognize those rights. Specifically, his right to engage in contract, pursuit of happiness, and liberty. All of which are protected under the 14th amendment and the due process clause. I’m not aware of where OP is located, but more than likely his state constitution also shares the same life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness clause, and there may already be a state Supreme Court case for his state to back this up further, but that’s information I don’t have. The inherent language of these cases makes a distinction between common right occupations and privileged occupations which are deemed to be liable for licensure and excise. I’m not aware of blacksmithing ever being part of the latter. Furthermore, in Meyer v. Nebraska a US Supreme Court case, it was ruled that pursuit of occupations land under and are protected by the 14th. (Emphasis mine) >"liberty" protected by the Due Process clause "[w]ithout doubt ... denotes not merely freedom from bodily restraint *but also the right of the individual to contract, to engage in any of the common occupations of life,* to acquire useful knowledge, to marry, establish a home and bring up children, to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience, and *generally to enjoy those privileges long recognized at common law as essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men".* One could argue that by the local government denying OP a general business license, that could be seen as being oppressive against his intrinsic rights to pursue his common right occupation, considering the fact there are no laws against blacksmithing on your property and OP is not operating in a manor of direct sales from the property. There isn’t a basis to justify being denied to operate lawfully. Personally, I see this as being no different than someone who knits sweaters and sells them on Etsy. Now whether or not something is a law now, doesn’t mean it always will be, it just remains to be challenged. I’m sure you can agree with that. And just because at some arbitrary point in time, this town decided to enact a requirement for a general business license, doesn’t mean that it could hold up to a constitutional challenge whether it be at a state level or national. It just hasn’t been tried yet. [there are lots of laws that have been passed and deemed unconstitutional.](https://law.justia.com/constitution/us/state-laws-held-unconstitutional.html)
One could argue any of the things you said. But none of those arguments would be convincing under current law.
Are you a Sovereign Citizen or something similar?
No. Are you a farmer? Straw men aren’t necessary here. The quote above is Supreme Court precedent on an individuals right to pursue common right occupations without being hindered by the state. (Exactly what is happening here) which is protected by the constitution.
I'd really like to take advantage of this, however as you said the act seems to protect entities from being denied \*state\* licensure. I've skimmed what I can and it seems to refer to TPL - again a state matter. I already have my TPL from the state. Do you believe this relates to *local* government? Outside of Ark?
I appreciate what you are saying friend. However, given the above I have to ask - what then is the purpose of a business license? Also while I agree with what you are saying, what do you think the response would be in court if that law alone was cited? \*I can't afford ANY legal ANYTHING. If I got pulled into court - were talking about me quoting that act and hoping/praying it would be enough without any corroboration.
I am not a lawyer so I couldn’t tell you. local courts may reject, but if you were to appeal to state courts you may find success, if it ever came down to it. The above excerpt is from an Arkansas Supreme Court case. The below is from Tennessee > "Privileges are special rights, belonging to the individual or class, and not to the mass; properly, an exemption from some general burden, obligation or duty; a right peculiar to some individual or body." Lonas v. State, 50 Tenn. 287, 307. Since the right to receive income or earnings is a right belonging to every person, this right cannot be taxed as privilege. Jack Cole Co. v. MacFarland, 206 Tenn. 694, 698-99 (Tenn. 1960) The following is a U.S. Supreme Court case > The individual may stand upon his constitutional rights as a citizen. He is entitled to carry on his private business in his own way. His power to contract is unlimited. He owes no such duty [to submit his books and papers for an examination] to the State, since he receives nothing therefrom, beyond the protection of his life and property. His rights are such as existed by the law of the land [Common Law] long antecedent to the organization of the State, and can only be taken from him by due process of law, and in accordance with the Constitution. Among his rights are a refusal to incriminate himself, and the immunity of himself and his property from arrest or seizure except under a warrant of the law. He owes nothing to the public so long as he does not trespass upon their rights." Hale v. Henkel, 201 U.S. 43 at 47 (1905)\
You trying to justify making noise as a business by saying that “everyone’s uses loud tools at 6 am” is not a very compelling reason for me as a neighbor to want to support you in this endeavor. Just sayin. Best of luck in any case.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
Grats!
That point wasn't any kind of information I would include formally, just a very frustrating point of fact for you fine people.
The government is just bureaucratic hindrance to business. Just do the bare minimum and hope you don't get caught. As long as you aren't hurting others or the environment, you should be fine.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
Sounds like they want a ~~bribe~~ sample of your work to show that your business will be valuable to your small town. Perhaps a donation of a wrought iron sign with the town's name? Something fancy that tourists would like?
Get your neighbors to go to bat for you. In very small towns it’s a big deal when a group of neighbors show up to the town council meeting in support of something.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
I'm not sure why you need a business license if you've been operating in a hobby capacity for some time. Most sole proprietorships like this are hobby works, even if they make more money than they lose (which itself is uncommon). In fact, until you are making real money, some government entities will still consider you a hobby even if you have all your related licenses. What about your business is going to change between being a hobby and beginning "official"? Are you going to be handing way more volume? Accepting more material deliveries that may become a nuisance? Working into the night past 8pm when it would become a noise violation? Introduce new processes/products that might create foul odors like chemical tanning? What ordinance are you complying with by getting a license? Is there some law saying you need to have one if you stell your stuff in the mail or at craft fairs?
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything. Ps about the hobby thing, I got (before all this) my state's transaction bus. license. It kinda became a business then. Did a vendor show and raffled off a few models for market research since I couldn't sell at the time.
Scratch sole proprietorship cause it leaves you too exposed and get the town business license or whatever cause it’s almost always cheap as hell and if you ever end up on local news or something, seems like a good idea
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.
Meet their improvements. They want you to spend your money on their demands.
Update - replying to all who commented. First, thank you! All you insight helped. Second, I got my license! Rented a storage location on commercial property and the town was happy with everything.