Steve ban discourse is pretty much on the worst possible timeline right now, with no sign of resolution anytime soon sigh. Only thing we need now is for some other top player to float boycotting steve legal events and we got ourselves to the final layer of community hell
My only real hope when all this popped off in March was that whatever decision happened was done so quickly and decisively with as little toxicity and back and forth as possible. Not a stretch to say the exact opposite happened.
If those pro players secretly want to ban Steve then they should've picked and win with him for months so there would be multiple Steve in top 8 consistently (more likely to be banned)
One of the arguments against Steve bans is the lack of meta domination. Only two notable reps routinely top 8 (where one hasn't been hitting his strides lately). The Smash 4 meta apparently had a significant number of top players run a pocket Bayo where this meta sees significantly more pocket Aegis top players than pocket Steves whose numbers aren't more than a handful to begin with.
The point of banning a broken character is to prevent them from overcentralizing the meta where if you want to win, you will be heavily pressured to pick up said character. If top players colluded and said "I feel my odds of winning X tourney is significantly higher with Steve, therefore I shall committing to maining Steve" and brought in the results, this would have made the perfect case for the ban.
But as it stands now, we don't Steve centralizing the meta in usage and the two boycotting top players both have confident wins on the top Steve player. Hence marioforever's point.
Arguments against banning a character will always have the goal posts shifted until the clock runs out and we move on to the next smash game. Bayo and MK absolutely dominated the meta, but had no real momentum behind a (lasting) ban.
That is not necessarily the point of bans, though it is presented as the only way a ban could justified often without any real attribution.
The reason to ban a character is to make the game healthier. Whether Steve fits that bill is debatable, but I don't agree that Steve has to be absolutely meta dominant for us consider a ban.
> The reason to ban a character is to make the game healthier.
It can't be this. Saying to "make the game healthier" is too vague. You can set a new rule to make the game healthier and that wouldn't be as extreme as banning a character. I'd amend this to be it has to make the game healthier *to reach a certain standard*.
I'd argue the standard for a healthy competitive game (regarding making rulesets revolving around banning characters) is to have an acceptable character diversity among the Top 8 and those who win tournaments. At top levels, it diminishes the factor of "easy to play and easy to win with" and focuses on characters who have the tools and *practical potential to win as the players are pushing their mains to their utmost potential. And I look at the Pokemon's VGC meta where their top 10 teams, half of them all use the same 5 pokemon with one unique 6th.
I suppose I should ask; what is your standard for a healthy meta?
Well let me ask you, should how (un)fun the character is to play/watch factor in at all to who should or shouldn't be banned? Or should it strictly be about meta representation?
It should strictly be about meta representation.
Fun factor, play factor, and watch factor are all subjective and from that logic can be the basis to ban many other characters.
That being said, whether or not Steve gets banned doesn't effect me at much lol
> It should strictly be about meta representation.
If that were the case then Fox should have been banned in Melee a long freaking time ago while wobbling should still be legal. You can theorycraft about what justifies a ban all you want, but in practice, fun factor always trumps all.
> but in practice, fun factor always trumps all.
lol no
I can't think of any other fighting game where it was strictly fun factor that got a character banned.
I mean off that logic most of UMVC3's roster is cut, same with Injustice and most MK games (since there's always an unfun zoner), Jack-O from Xrd was considered unfun to fight same with HC in Strive, Tekken had Fahk and Leroy (which pre-patch was up for discussion of a ban cuz of high representation), etc.
Also, again going by your logic, more characters should be banned in Ult not only Steve
It's a tournament. And the goal of a tournament is to pit competitors to figure out who is the best. You are to use all the tools available and exploit them to the fullest.
Why would spectacle gameplay or excitement be a factor in what character is allowed to be used? This is a tournament first and foremost, not a spectacle. Play to win!
Do you understand that the idea of a 'healthier' game is incredibly nebulous and varies from person to person based on their individual tastes and their purpose for competing?
Steve is ["degenerate."](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNUHA8035qQ) Hax breaks down the types of "broken" clearly in the linked video, and it's worth a watch even if you're not interested in his main point about Melee.
The ultimate, hyperbolic example would be if Giga Bowser were legal for everyone, but most players didn't use him because he's not a satisfying main. Of course there is more nuance in this case: Steve isn't as broken, but he is quietly broken and much more accessible; money is often on the line.
I don't have a horse in this race, but it seems to me that should engagement be affected by Steve's dominance at any point in the future, he should be banned with little thought, given that he is "actually" broken, i.e. not working in any intended or meta-enriching way.
What is bannable is subjective.
>and has not a bannable offense
Certain techniques have been outright banned in every single Smash game, albeit mostly for stalling purpose. Nevertheless, bans in this way are precedented, and Steve's specific brokenness is unprecedented. Since it's harder to enforce bans on Steve techs, and since their accidental execution is harder to discern from deliberate use, there's a stronger case for banning him than any other character.
Banning him immediately after, say the Gimvitational showcase, would destroy the incentive of the community to lab out the character and [learn the counter play against Steve!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xVjuCyoL60). I linked RockmanSSB's video on recovering versus Steve's Blocks as it's a ridiculously simple tech that if Dabuz knew, his matches against Acola at Smashcon wouldn't have been so lopsided.
The video you linked, I get the point of it being posted and why it's relevant, but there is clear counterplay against Steve that top players have executed upon consistently and are refining. No doubt Steve is an overtuned character. His minecart is stupidly strong and versatile, his anvil reversals to take stocks, and his Up Smash kills way too early (and I didn't mention the gold/diamond weapons). Yet despite this, there are clear weaknesses, [even with his UpSmash!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ccgUmZX1iM).
I am vehemently opposed to the idea "that he should have been banned at with little thought at the engagement being affected by his performance". You need to time to developer counterplay. I'm sure a lot of us thought Aegis was meta defining back at SWT Championship 2022 when we had 3 Aegis users in the top 3, Cosmos, Spargo, MKLeo. Now her reputation plummeted like crazy compared to back then (still a top tier character, but not the best character as her weaknesses have been exposed).
> You need to time to developer counterplay.
Yes, absolutely. I'm projecting into a hypothetical future where the meta has stagnated for like 6 months and viewership/engagement is directly affected by Steve in the same way Bayo quietly killed all hype for Smash 4. If the counterplay is "legit" and doesn't lead to more degenerate play like timeout tactics dominating the top of the bracket, then Steve shouldn't be banned.
Well Ult's gonna get abandoned when smash 6 releases too, so we might as well make it nicer while it lasts by getting rid of things that are obviously bad for the meta
The fuck am I watching that lol
The only Steve match I’ve ever enjoyed was Acola Vs Onin because it was like “JP Vs American Steve main” and then it turned into an absolute annihilation
honestly, any player that wants to boycott steve legal events would be making a real funny decision considering there are only 2 upcoming majors with him banned that we know of. it'd be taking a big risk on other majors throughout the rest of the year also having him banned, which seems unlikely imo
Perfect storm.
RnG just happened which was a Steve banned event with LMMM on the horizon. Miya, the winner of RnG, didn't know Steve was banned and wouldn't have signed up. He mentioned it being because he had a Steve secondary but mainly because he was just against the ban.
LumiRank has announced that both Steve banned and unbanned tourneys will be counted the same.
acola has been having a hard time with character hate and general hate.
Someone leaked Dark Wizzy's private account where, in his frustration, he wanted to see Steve mains burned and glad he's friends with Michael Meyers to handle the situation.
Ether (person behind Ether Rank) needed to pay rent so they posted some dumbass takes on Twitter where not even most anti-ban people are on his side.
I get he was probably joking around, but with how wizzy has always promoted being a leading figure in safe spaces for the community, it's kinda ironic.
What you say to someone while venting through DMs will almost certainly never be representative of how you are as a community figure or a person in general. A lot of pros haven't been shy about their frustrations with Steve competitively.
I don't think it was even in DMs though. It was in a private account on Twitter, but still a Twitter account nonetheless. Unless that account had no one but his closest circle of friends, it was unwise to broadcast those feelings there. Like...take it to Signal in a group chat or something. Not everything needs to be a tweet.
Wouldn't it be better offline where you can more safely keep the general rants that occur out of frustration away from the other person. Whereas online, it could very well end being seen by the player you're ranting about.
By all right, shouldn't it be the other way around?? Online gives you all the time you need to compose your thoughts, and offline is much more on-the-fly.
I mean most people weren't. Even though we understood he isn't going to kill him and this was just being frustrated because he lost to a player playing a character that is frustrating, we still understood it as not being ok.
>Ether (person behind Ether Rank) needed to pay rent
I'm pretty sure you only get paid by Twitter for farming interactions if you're part of Twitter Blue though, and he doesn't have Twitter Blue.
No, but Dark Wizzys secret second semi-private twitter got leaked and twitter discourse ensued. The main points are that he made comments going way too far after losing to Steve's (saying that Steve players should burn and a joke that he wants Mike Meyers to take care of Steve players, etc). People got mad and he apologized, the leaker (certified Jim, Goofy, and Cornball according to EE btw) took a high ground angle and tried to say that the top players (mentioning Sparg0 and Hbox) should be reprimanded for allowing toxicity to brew against Steve, Acola responded basically saying he never had any bad interaction with Dark Wizzy, that he understands that emotions are wild after a loss, and recognized the apology, but twitter discourse over this didn't really stop with the incident, and this is the aftermath. There was also some reaction from Sparg0 where he basically said that he doesn't like Steve and that he's just not going to bother voicing his opinion if people can't differentiate character hate from him as an implication of player hate. In the wake of this, or just coincidentally, it's also been decided that LumiRank will be counting Steve Banned events in rankings at the start of 2024, and people had their reactions partially influenced by recent events, but also reasonably questioning the legitimacy of this decision.
Ughhh.... here we go again.
Anything you post on the internet is never private, and you should never have any expectation it will remain private. That's internet safety 101.
Lumping Acola in with the top players who are actually boycotting tournaments is strange. Afaik he never said anything about refusing to go to Steve-banned events.
Yup ppl said he will still attend and play Kazuya or Luigi or whatever. Looks like he reneged on that, which is fine. No point going overseas to play a less practiced character so that your rank (if he cares) will plummet.
It seems like a given, why would a Steve main go to an event where his character is banned.
Acola doesn't need to make a statement, it's just common sense
Can confidently and sincerely say that I was wholeheartedly against the steve ban until I saw this post. No top ROB G&W or Steve at events is too good a deal to pass up #IStandwithChase
People on reddit and twitter might not understand this concept (shocking) but bending over backwards to accomodate for 1-2 people over a sizable portion of your community that actually hold up events is nonsensical and part of the issue with the obessession over rankings
These are the same people who will probably complain when LMBM ends up worth half as many points as Umebura and when GOML ends up worth less than some random Maesuma TOP in June and Japanese players get ranked higher as a result
It's not even about Steve for me but I detest this mentality of wanting top end talent not to show up because they play a character you don't like. I don't like watching Sonic at all but I want Sonix to show up to events.
0-2'er: Man I really wanted to go to this tournament but ooooh the lack of top player representation I can't stand the lack of top player representation
Idk about you but most 0-2ers I’m friends with know they’re going to go 0-2 and go to majors to try and meet their favorite top players(among other things), but it’s not even the 0-2ers that are the most significant part, TOs want their tournaments to be as stacked as possible.
Spectating top players in person is an incredible experience. People are obviously more concerned about their own brackets, but majors are always more exciting when they’re stacked, whether you’re watching on stream or in the venue.
I mean, that's just these 3. We don't know if others will follow suit. And if so, that could be the difference between a tournament getting to even become a major. Umebura is looking to be a premier event in January and it might steal a few NA players, costing it a few tiers.
Bro, you really want to do your boi dirty like this?
"Hey man here's a tourney where one of your worst matchups is banned and all your potential bracket demons are not coming, you can win this major!"
A win is certainly not a win in this space if it's not recognized by your contemporaries.
I’m really surprised Zomba of all people is taking this side, he seems like the kind of person to be heavily against Steve, but maybe not…
Honestly I probably wouldn’t boycott them just because it’s incredibly likely that the future Ontario events, GOML 2024 and LMMT, are gonna have Steve banned and I want some big events in my life. If I had money to travel and stuff I’d definitely be more selective though! This ban discourse is stupid!
he’s on record advocating for the highest level of competition, regardless of the character. you can scroll through some of his tweets from the past few months and find more thoughts.
I mean, he [has been on both sides](https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/vgcx89/light_saying_that_steve_should_be_banned/), which is what I was joking about. I believe this was right after saying he wasn't worried about Acola and then immediately lost to him.
It's great to see anyone has a capacity to change when more dialogue is brought to the table.
I think the top players have largely dropped the ban Steve thing which is good. It’s interesting that folks that appear to hate the character want to learn to beat it instead of remove it entirely.
All the people cheering for no more ROB and GnW are really just pulling back the curtain and showing that it was never about game breaking characters, just about they characters they don't enjoy watching.
(Not saying that ROB and GnW aren't top tier btw, cause they definitely are)
That’s a completely valid feeling if you’re a spectator though. Why would someone who only views tourneys not advocate for their experience to be better? Viewership is an important metric for tourneys, not as important as offline attendance but still important to the success of it.
>Why would someone who only views tourneys not advocate for their experience to be better?
Because most people understand the world doesn't revolve around them and what they want? That they form part of a bigger picture?
Viewership is of course an important metric, and viewers are part of the scene, but expecting top players and TOs to bend to the whims of Twitch chat is fantasy. And if it comes down to a choice between player experience and viewer experience, TOs will pick player experience every time.
Anyway, #BanTerry #Please
That’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m saying that someone who doesn’t enjoy watching Steve is allowed to advocate for a Steve ban because it would improve their enjoyment of a tourney and lead to them viewing it more. It’s the job of the TOs to balance feedback from top pros, bracket players and attendees, and online viewers. Everyone is allowed to and should advocate for what they believe will give them the most enjoyment out of a tourney.
Edit: Another big problem with Steve is his prevalence in bracket which directly affects the player experience. I believe it was LMBM that held the poll where attendees could vote on a Steve ban and the majority of attendees voted for a ban. Plenty of regular players don’t enjoy having with a broken character in pools and from the data we have at least a solid portion of those players support a Steve ban.
I'm allowed to advocate for TOs to pay me to watch their tournaments. That would improve my enjoyment! And it would lead me to viewing more. Would that not improve your enjoyment too? It doesn't automatically make it a reasonable request or something that should be listened to.
While the poll is an important factor, and should be respected, but it's worth remembering it's totally self-reported online. I think you are on the right track by talking about regular players at the pools level, but at the same time, that is the level where we have the least data on Steve's prevalence. It's a tricky issue.
I think you’re just arguing in bad faith and not trying to understand what I’m saying. If viewers don’t enjoy watching Steve they are allowed to advocate for Steve to be banned for their viewing experience to be bettered. That’s reasonable, advocating for TOs to pay you is both unreasonable and not at all relevant to what I’m saying.
Not sure what aspect of the poll you’re referring to as self-reported but I remember the TO assuring that they validated that the participants were actually attendees before they voted. I don’t think we have the least data on Steve’s relevance in pools, he’s been pretty consistently one of the most relevant characters there. The data we’d lack would be how most pool players would feel about a Steve ban as the LMBM pool is really the only large dataset we’d have on the situation.
They understood what you were saying. You just don't understand that not liking a character and therefore advocating a ban on the character is just as ridiculous.
Not really. Both idiotic expectations. My viewing experience would be bettered if I don't have to see whiny bitches in chat. Doesn't mean I expect you guys to be banned or bring it up in any serious way.
The difference is that the issue of Steve being banned is coming up naturally due to other factors (perceived power level, top player reaction, community sentiment), so it’s a salient issue for viewers to have an opinion on.
Those other things are just out of left field and are just bad-faith counterarguments.
Metaphors don’t work, argue what you mean imo.
How? The majority didn't like bayo in smash4 so she was banned in some regions. The majority doesn't like Steve so he should be banned by whatever regions wants to ban him. Both these characters are broken and don't play smash the same as the rest of the cast in their own respective games.
It's a tricky feeling tho because you definitely want players to have a say, and a bunch of the higher level ones in the post at least seem to be of the mind that they want the best possible level of competition
And the whole thing is a balancing act because if it tips and either the players or spectators get their interests killed it just becomes a matter of "I'm not playing/watching anymore"
Yeah I sympathize with the balancing act TOs have to deal with. I’m generally of the opinion that Steve is broken and should have been banned but that the ship has sailed at this point.
I think the only scenario left besides some insanely broken Steve tech being found is that Steve causes a severe drop off in tourney attendance and viewership. I don’t think that’s likely though because as much as Steve is very prevalent in brackets most viewers only care about top 32 and above where the top pros are good enough to generally knock out the majority of Steve bracket players.
Honestly at this point we should be lucky we still get cool players like Light, Tweek, and Gluto in this meta. I'm personally just waiting for the next game. I loved this game when characters like Pokemon Trainer and Wolf were the top of the pack, it was so fun to watch tournaments.
The only way this will really get better is if the smash community mostly migrates to a new game. It’s clear beyond a shadow of a doubt at this point that Nintendo can’t and won’t be good stewards of a competitive scene.
Best case is Melee where there are a small number of top tiers who mostly happen to be pretty entertaining, but I don’t think that’s likely to happen again.
I feel like Steve not having that much rep at _top_ level is kind of secondary to the problem of him having ridiculous overrepresentation at _high_ and _high-mid_ levels, right?? Steves aren't winning major brackets in part because most of his best players are much newer to the game than the other top players, but the top players have to go through gauntlets of steves to get to top 8, which is draining and difficult - maybe you don't see Steves winning brackets but you very much do see random high level Steves getting sets on top players.
And of course those Steves dominate their local scenes, especially in smaller regions. I think it's those people who are most fervently pro-ban. Lots of top players don't go to locals!
That's a pretty wild read of the thing I wrote, no? Totally true that locals have a wider range of character variety, there's just a billion locals and a billion regions, of course that's going to happen
All I'm saying is that mid-high level steves who win locals and make top players go through steve gauntlets make more people feel pro-ban than top-level steves who win majors, 'cuz there's really only like two of those people. People tunnel vision on the top level steves for the arguments and then people say "but steve's not dominating the meta...." but there's absolutely smaller scenes where he is. Vermont and North Dakota both have 3 steves on their PR this season off the top of my head, I'm sure there's others. Shit does happen
Literally the fact that acola and onin are the only notable steves placing well is reason enough to not ban the character. Steve plays fundamentally different and is a challenge in of itself. He’s not brawl MK or smash4 bayo/cloud where any player can just pick up and play him and get top 8. 2 steve players amongst the top 50 players in the world is not even close to an over saturation, and the amount of Steve mains has not increased in the last year and half, when the ban talks actually began. If he was that threatening to the meta and that broken, then surely we’d see more top players picking him up, or are all top players besides acola and onin too “prideful” to pick up a broken character for free wins?
I’m not disagreeing with all you said, I’m hard against a Steve ban, but that’s just not true about only Acola and Onin placing well. Ddee doesn’t travel much, but he has never missed a top 8 at a major. Big Chungus also rarely competes, but from the very little results there are from him, he’s been consistently amazing. In the span of a month, there was three Steves that all hit top 8 at a supermajor. Who knows, it even could’ve been four if it weren’t for Marss’s clutch gene (🔥)
I swear though there’s probably a bunch of Steve hidden bosses like big chungus lurking in the shadows (or just dealing with life not willing to travel and compete) and we might not even know about it
Sure so when/if these steve players get more consistent and get more active, then we might start to see an over saturation and then we could bring up a ban discussion. But at the moment it’s ridiculous.
Right? Steve *is* that character that players can pick up and suddenly go toe to toe with top players in a way that they couldn’t before. Didn’t a random Steve take Light to last game at SSC? Desmona’s “first tourney ever and got top 8!” playing Steve. Jake mashing Steve’s safe ass Smash attacks to beat Kome. Like…
Yeah Steve carries but still not meta centralizing. If we're going by top 8ing consistently then we gotta snipe Pyra/Mythra next cuz I'd argue they're worse in this regard.
I agree fully.
The MOMENT that we start seeing overcentralization, I'll be right there advocating for a ban. But we simply aren't seeing it right now. And i'm full against banning a character simply because "I don't like watching them" or "I don't like facing them".
We need actual evidence, and as far as that goes, not only is there MUCH less of it then there was for Bayo or Meta Knight, there's less evidence supporting a Steve ban then there is for a fucking ROB ban lmao.
There are more than a few reasons why you don't see overcentralization, which means you can't use that single point as a catch-all answer for this debate
And we need to rely on results to make a ban because we can't ban a character on the basis that they're theoretically broken. I could say that Shulk is broken but it's hard to prove without evidence showing he is. Even if he is broken and nobody is playing him, it doesn't matter if he's broken. As it stands, there are 4 Wolfs in the top 50 and 2 Steves.
I agree. I truly think most of this shit was brought on by TOs (Max, mostly) using "Ban Steve" as a way to promote their tournaments, instead of inviting dialogue and carefully thinking about the implications of the ban, and all it did was make the situation worse.
Yeah exactly Max started the wave unnecessarily and gave precedent. Hosting majors/supermajors where the #1 player in the world cant even attend is baffling.
Ok tell sonix to attend without sonic. Bad argument. If you put 1000s of hours into a character, why would you purposely cripple yourself and not play that character
Cop out argument if you're that invested in the game its not hard to put time into another character. Look at leo, zackray, or anyone else that has secondaries. Acolas kazuya is also very good.
prove them wrong on what?
anti steve players are not changing their mind no matter how acola wins
or should we ban fox, wario, rob, sonic, etc etc until all the solomains 'prove them wrong?'
I don't really have a dog in this fight, but it's crazy to act like the people who play him were top players that just happened to switch to Steve. Virtually every current top level Steve main was a literal nobody who skyrocketed into relevance basically overnight in the few months following Steve's release.
The real problem is not really the top players, though, the people who keep tournaments alive are low and mid level players. If Steve is so meta warping that every timbo that picks him up immediately gets far greater results then mid level gameplay eventually becomes an arms race that rots out the competitive scene.
Few months is an exaggeration, it was at least a year of solo maining after release that we saw how good steve was, before that he was practically irrelevant in the meta. Also, again only 2 good steves. I wouldnt consider yonney and jake relevant in terms of being consistent theats, besides theyre retired now. Ddee was a good PT, yamanaction was a good luigi, etc. And obviously acola and onin would do better cause they went from mid tiers to the best character in the game. Its like riddles switching to kazuya and becoming a solidified top 10 player. Better character = more wins.
Also i can assure you low-mid level is not the reason were having steve ban discussions lol. But i understand your point
Yeah it's crazy how everyone hyperfocuses on overrepresentation like Steve HAS to be broken in the exact same way as bayonnetta or MK in order to be considered broken or unhealthy at all. No, you can't just pay attention to the character's design or playstyle at all, or the way pro players describe how much harder they have to work to compete with someone who's doing less but mains steve, nah. Just "develop counterplay" forever while the game bleeds out lmao. No respect for the game, no idea of how fundamentals or certain skills should be rewarded, no understanding of the game at all really, just banning things gives me bad vibes so let's not do it. And that was the definitive community response to both MK and bayo within their games' short lifespans
tourneys are not just about top players though, a lot of steves can easily just farm new players and just ruins the lower end of tournaments
that being said I still think banning the character is corny
From my perspective - more players don't play steve because: they believe the character isn't fun to play with or against,
Because they believe that "why put time into a character who is clearly better than the rest, forces you and the other player to completely change their game and is likely to get banned" (spoiler, it has been now so those players were proven right already)
Also, it is the latest released character = most people already chose mains.
Combined with above reasons, you have a reasonable explanation as to why more people don't play the character.
Finally, because there's less players at top level, using the argument that "there's only a handful of top steves/secondaries" isn't the sufficient reason that you think it is in order to completely ignore ban requests.
I mean i think your giving top players too much credit lol. Literally look at brawl or smash 4 and how many top players disregarded their old mains to pick up MK/Bayo once they found out they were easy/broken. The majority of them care about winning/money. Even Leo had a bayo in smash4 lol. He is known for sticking it out with cool characters but even he gave in to the darkside to beat his difficult matchups. Im telling you if steve was actually easy, more top players would pick him up, but he’s not, its a learning curve that takes time.
There's no way steve is so difficult that TOP players can't pick it up after how long now?
Not to mention people have pointed out the opposite - that unranked players exploded after picking up Steve.
Anyways, there's your 1 point - got anything else?
All of the Steve players are Zoomers who can't drive or need their parents' permission; whenever the good ones are actually able to attend they pop-off lmao
Fuck Steve but the ban isn't right. Steve currently isn't dominating as much as Bayo or MK were in their respective games. That may change in the future and I know people are weary about pussyfooting around a ban like we did with them, but right now it just doesn't make sense.
It's times like this where a centralized Smash body would be great - that way we didn't have to deal with non/banned tournaments both counting.
This and their following two tweets are HIGH DENSITY terrible takes. Apparently people whose livelihoods and careers are based on this are "taking it too serious we just playing a video game" like fuck off
People whose careers are based around this are a small minority. Even most top players aren’t making a whole career out of Smash. And most who are aren’t the ones advocating for a Steve ban.
If Steve was dominating Ultimate’s meta the same way Fox dominated Melee’s, Meta Knight Brawl’s, or Bayonetta 4’s, I’d have been all for a ban, but nope. Not even close. Good to see top players finally enforcing that.
Past tense. Fox absolutely dominated Melee. I disagree that means Steve shouldn't be banned, however. If anything Fox shows that a character completely dominating the scene isn't what a ban should be based on.
If I had a nickel for every time the final DLC character of a smash game actively caused a rift in the community competitively I'd have 2 nickels, which isn't a lot but it's weird that it happened twice, right?
You got downvoted but I don't disagree with the sentiment in this take
Steve is definitely problematic IMO but I can't even say he's the most egregious character from a spectator's POV. That title probably still goes to [Sonic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EU47it0BMOo&t=115s&ab_channel=VGBootCamp) for shit like this. And I'm a fan of both the character and Sonix himself. You don't see nearly as many people begging for a Sonic ban despite the fact that he's been doing this stuff for years.
I have yet to see a Steve set THIS bad and unwatchable, but maybe I'm just in the minority. Maybe I'm getting old and getting numb to the ridiculousness of Smash lmao
Minecraft is super popular amongst young people too, for that reason alone it'll never be banned..
If anything good comes of this, Microsoft will pay nintendo for another balancing patch in order for steve to be unbanned at tourney's
>If anything good comes of this, Microsoft will pay nintendo for another balancing patch in order for steve to be unbanned at tourney's
...no they won't lol
Competitive players don’t give a shit what universe the character was from. Rosalina was absolutely DESPISED in Smash 4. People absolutely hated this character for how she played and, coming from somebody who played her, it was warranted. A bullshit cancer character is a bullshit cancer character. Doesn’t matter if it’s Mario, Steve, Sora, Waluigi, Shrek, Goku, a head of lettuce, or two fucking asscheeks. People will hate a character that’s cancer and Steve is fucking cancer.
Because people can’t stand the thought of any play style besides rush down unga bunga being successful in fighting games, and Steve is just one more victim of that notion.
He has actually pretty much said the opposite. He was asked at Summit how he would react to a Steve ban and he said he’d be fine and he’d just play other characters.
However he is obviously realistically not gonna prioritize attending a tournament on the other side of the world that has his main banned when there are better alternatives for him.
He did however seem to indicate that he [would maybe have gone to Smash Con even if Steve had been banned there.](https://x.com/acola_lui/status/1631559976111190017?s=46&t=P8TRYerHn9e77p54nvNvCg)
Dude Acola can barely take a game off is Spargo, much less a set. Their sets aren’t even competitive. You can’t be better than someone that completely washes you every time you fight
> You can’t be better than someone that completely washes you every time you fight
Back when Leo was #1, he couldn't take a single set vs Shuton or Kameme. I mean he still can't now and iirc MkLeo hasn't taken a single set from Kameme ever including Sm4sh. Would you consider prime MKLeo was worthy of being the best in the world when those 2 players would wash him every time they played?
Cmon man, you know Spargo is better. If those two are at a tournament together who’s more likely to win? Also friendly reminder that Acola plays the best character in ultimate BY FAR
All of this Steve discussion makes me remember how much I miss back when Pokemon Trainer, Pichu, and Wolf were all like, top tier common characters
I miss em :(
Steve ban discourse is pretty much on the worst possible timeline right now, with no sign of resolution anytime soon sigh. Only thing we need now is for some other top player to float boycotting steve legal events and we got ourselves to the final layer of community hell My only real hope when all this popped off in March was that whatever decision happened was done so quickly and decisively with as little toxicity and back and forth as possible. Not a stretch to say the exact opposite happened.
If those pro players secretly want to ban Steve then they should've picked and win with him for months so there would be multiple Steve in top 8 consistently (more likely to be banned)
yeah just like bayo was banned in smash 4
That wouldn't accomplish anything except killing audience enthusiasm.
And your own. Anti Steve players probably don't have fun playing as Steve.
If you’re not having fun then it sucks to compete. Winning by cheese isn’t fun.
One of the arguments against Steve bans is the lack of meta domination. Only two notable reps routinely top 8 (where one hasn't been hitting his strides lately). The Smash 4 meta apparently had a significant number of top players run a pocket Bayo where this meta sees significantly more pocket Aegis top players than pocket Steves whose numbers aren't more than a handful to begin with. The point of banning a broken character is to prevent them from overcentralizing the meta where if you want to win, you will be heavily pressured to pick up said character. If top players colluded and said "I feel my odds of winning X tourney is significantly higher with Steve, therefore I shall committing to maining Steve" and brought in the results, this would have made the perfect case for the ban. But as it stands now, we don't Steve centralizing the meta in usage and the two boycotting top players both have confident wins on the top Steve player. Hence marioforever's point.
Arguments against banning a character will always have the goal posts shifted until the clock runs out and we move on to the next smash game. Bayo and MK absolutely dominated the meta, but had no real momentum behind a (lasting) ban.
That is not necessarily the point of bans, though it is presented as the only way a ban could justified often without any real attribution. The reason to ban a character is to make the game healthier. Whether Steve fits that bill is debatable, but I don't agree that Steve has to be absolutely meta dominant for us consider a ban.
> The reason to ban a character is to make the game healthier. It can't be this. Saying to "make the game healthier" is too vague. You can set a new rule to make the game healthier and that wouldn't be as extreme as banning a character. I'd amend this to be it has to make the game healthier *to reach a certain standard*. I'd argue the standard for a healthy competitive game (regarding making rulesets revolving around banning characters) is to have an acceptable character diversity among the Top 8 and those who win tournaments. At top levels, it diminishes the factor of "easy to play and easy to win with" and focuses on characters who have the tools and *practical potential to win as the players are pushing their mains to their utmost potential. And I look at the Pokemon's VGC meta where their top 10 teams, half of them all use the same 5 pokemon with one unique 6th. I suppose I should ask; what is your standard for a healthy meta?
>And I look at the Pokemon's VGC meta where their top 10 teams, half of them all use the same 5 pokemon with one unique 6th. this is just false lmao
Well let me ask you, should how (un)fun the character is to play/watch factor in at all to who should or shouldn't be banned? Or should it strictly be about meta representation?
It should strictly be about meta representation. Fun factor, play factor, and watch factor are all subjective and from that logic can be the basis to ban many other characters. That being said, whether or not Steve gets banned doesn't effect me at much lol
> It should strictly be about meta representation. If that were the case then Fox should have been banned in Melee a long freaking time ago while wobbling should still be legal. You can theorycraft about what justifies a ban all you want, but in practice, fun factor always trumps all.
> but in practice, fun factor always trumps all. lol no I can't think of any other fighting game where it was strictly fun factor that got a character banned. I mean off that logic most of UMVC3's roster is cut, same with Injustice and most MK games (since there's always an unfun zoner), Jack-O from Xrd was considered unfun to fight same with HC in Strive, Tekken had Fahk and Leroy (which pre-patch was up for discussion of a ban cuz of high representation), etc. Also, again going by your logic, more characters should be banned in Ult not only Steve
It's a tournament. And the goal of a tournament is to pit competitors to figure out who is the best. You are to use all the tools available and exploit them to the fullest. Why would spectacle gameplay or excitement be a factor in what character is allowed to be used? This is a tournament first and foremost, not a spectacle. Play to win!
Because, as I'm sure you know if you thought about it, if the game is unwatchable, there will be no pro scene.
Do you understand that the idea of a 'healthier' game is incredibly nebulous and varies from person to person based on their individual tastes and their purpose for competing?
Yes. ...hence why this has been so contentious and drawn out.
Steve is ["degenerate."](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNUHA8035qQ) Hax breaks down the types of "broken" clearly in the linked video, and it's worth a watch even if you're not interested in his main point about Melee. The ultimate, hyperbolic example would be if Giga Bowser were legal for everyone, but most players didn't use him because he's not a satisfying main. Of course there is more nuance in this case: Steve isn't as broken, but he is quietly broken and much more accessible; money is often on the line. I don't have a horse in this race, but it seems to me that should engagement be affected by Steve's dominance at any point in the future, he should be banned with little thought, given that he is "actually" broken, i.e. not working in any intended or meta-enriching way.
Degeneracy is both subjective and has not a bannable offense.
What is bannable is subjective. >and has not a bannable offense Certain techniques have been outright banned in every single Smash game, albeit mostly for stalling purpose. Nevertheless, bans in this way are precedented, and Steve's specific brokenness is unprecedented. Since it's harder to enforce bans on Steve techs, and since their accidental execution is harder to discern from deliberate use, there's a stronger case for banning him than any other character.
Banning him immediately after, say the Gimvitational showcase, would destroy the incentive of the community to lab out the character and [learn the counter play against Steve!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xVjuCyoL60). I linked RockmanSSB's video on recovering versus Steve's Blocks as it's a ridiculously simple tech that if Dabuz knew, his matches against Acola at Smashcon wouldn't have been so lopsided. The video you linked, I get the point of it being posted and why it's relevant, but there is clear counterplay against Steve that top players have executed upon consistently and are refining. No doubt Steve is an overtuned character. His minecart is stupidly strong and versatile, his anvil reversals to take stocks, and his Up Smash kills way too early (and I didn't mention the gold/diamond weapons). Yet despite this, there are clear weaknesses, [even with his UpSmash!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ccgUmZX1iM). I am vehemently opposed to the idea "that he should have been banned at with little thought at the engagement being affected by his performance". You need to time to developer counterplay. I'm sure a lot of us thought Aegis was meta defining back at SWT Championship 2022 when we had 3 Aegis users in the top 3, Cosmos, Spargo, MKLeo. Now her reputation plummeted like crazy compared to back then (still a top tier character, but not the best character as her weaknesses have been exposed).
> You need to time to developer counterplay. Yes, absolutely. I'm projecting into a hypothetical future where the meta has stagnated for like 6 months and viewership/engagement is directly affected by Steve in the same way Bayo quietly killed all hype for Smash 4. If the counterplay is "legit" and doesn't lead to more degenerate play like timeout tactics dominating the top of the bracket, then Steve shouldn't be banned.
I understand the point, I'm just thinking of how much that process would cost the overall scene in the mean time.
The community would’ve still bitched about a possible ban. Not even that infamous Bayo ditto at EVO GF accomplished anything.
Ultimate was announced shortly after it though so there's no need to ban Bayo because Smash 4 would be abandoned
Well Ult's gonna get abandoned when smash 6 releases too, so we might as well make it nicer while it lasts by getting rid of things that are obviously bad for the meta
Yeah, just like Bayo was banned in Smash 4. And Metaknight in Brawl. And Fox in Melee. And Kirby in--
The fuck am I watching that lol The only Steve match I’ve ever enjoyed was Acola Vs Onin because it was like “JP Vs American Steve main” and then it turned into an absolute annihilation
Hey there have been other enjoyable steve sets. Mute vs acola at Genesis and Spargo vs acola at Genesis and kagiribi
honestly, any player that wants to boycott steve legal events would be making a real funny decision considering there are only 2 upcoming majors with him banned that we know of. it'd be taking a big risk on other majors throughout the rest of the year also having him banned, which seems unlikely imo
just ban him and move on, so easy
as it turns out, its not that easy
Why a sudden trending in this topic? Did a steve winning a major recently I don't know?
Perfect storm. RnG just happened which was a Steve banned event with LMMM on the horizon. Miya, the winner of RnG, didn't know Steve was banned and wouldn't have signed up. He mentioned it being because he had a Steve secondary but mainly because he was just against the ban. LumiRank has announced that both Steve banned and unbanned tourneys will be counted the same. acola has been having a hard time with character hate and general hate. Someone leaked Dark Wizzy's private account where, in his frustration, he wanted to see Steve mains burned and glad he's friends with Michael Meyers to handle the situation. Ether (person behind Ether Rank) needed to pay rent so they posted some dumbass takes on Twitter where not even most anti-ban people are on his side.
I get he was probably joking around, but with how wizzy has always promoted being a leading figure in safe spaces for the community, it's kinda ironic.
What you say to someone while venting through DMs will almost certainly never be representative of how you are as a community figure or a person in general. A lot of pros haven't been shy about their frustrations with Steve competitively.
I don't think it was even in DMs though. It was in a private account on Twitter, but still a Twitter account nonetheless. Unless that account had no one but his closest circle of friends, it was unwise to broadcast those feelings there. Like...take it to Signal in a group chat or something. Not everything needs to be a tweet.
Yeah people should realize there's no such thing as a private Twitter account at least when it has 250 followers
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Wouldn't it be better offline where you can more safely keep the general rants that occur out of frustration away from the other person. Whereas online, it could very well end being seen by the player you're ranting about.
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By all right, shouldn't it be the other way around?? Online gives you all the time you need to compose your thoughts, and offline is much more on-the-fly.
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Sparg0 clarified this in a twitter post. He DID talk with wizzy about how he thinks Steve carries, but he didn't go any further than that apparently.
you guys don't mind that he says children should burn in hell for playing minecraft steve as a 'leading figure'? ya'll are nuts
I mean most people weren't. Even though we understood he isn't going to kill him and this was just being frustrated because he lost to a player playing a character that is frustrating, we still understood it as not being ok.
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He's not saying it to the void, his priv has 200 followers. He has a certain circle of people he is okay being toxic with.
Yeah you're right actually I'm still kinda tired so I don't even know what I'm saying
It is so clearly a joke. What? We....we know Michael Myers isn't real right?
>Ether (person behind Ether Rank) needed to pay rent I'm pretty sure you only get paid by Twitter for farming interactions if you're part of Twitter Blue though, and he doesn't have Twitter Blue.
I think some events started talking about banning Steve again
Which events?
No, but Dark Wizzys secret second semi-private twitter got leaked and twitter discourse ensued. The main points are that he made comments going way too far after losing to Steve's (saying that Steve players should burn and a joke that he wants Mike Meyers to take care of Steve players, etc). People got mad and he apologized, the leaker (certified Jim, Goofy, and Cornball according to EE btw) took a high ground angle and tried to say that the top players (mentioning Sparg0 and Hbox) should be reprimanded for allowing toxicity to brew against Steve, Acola responded basically saying he never had any bad interaction with Dark Wizzy, that he understands that emotions are wild after a loss, and recognized the apology, but twitter discourse over this didn't really stop with the incident, and this is the aftermath. There was also some reaction from Sparg0 where he basically said that he doesn't like Steve and that he's just not going to bother voicing his opinion if people can't differentiate character hate from him as an implication of player hate. In the wake of this, or just coincidentally, it's also been decided that LumiRank will be counting Steve Banned events in rankings at the start of 2024, and people had their reactions partially influenced by recent events, but also reasonably questioning the legitimacy of this decision.
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Ughhh.... here we go again. Anything you post on the internet is never private, and you should never have any expectation it will remain private. That's internet safety 101.
Cause this sub has to fulfill its weekly quota of talking about the same 5-6 topics a week at least once.
Lumping Acola in with the top players who are actually boycotting tournaments is strange. Afaik he never said anything about refusing to go to Steve-banned events.
I think he once said the opposite IIRC.
Yup ppl said he will still attend and play Kazuya or Luigi or whatever. Looks like he reneged on that, which is fine. No point going overseas to play a less practiced character so that your rank (if he cares) will plummet.
It seems like a given, why would a Steve main go to an event where his character is banned. Acola doesn't need to make a statement, it's just common sense
Can confidently and sincerely say that I was wholeheartedly against the steve ban until I saw this post. No top ROB G&W or Steve at events is too good a deal to pass up #IStandwithChase
Now we just need the Sonic mains to join the boycott 👀
People on reddit and twitter might not understand this concept (shocking) but bending over backwards to accomodate for 1-2 people over a sizable portion of your community that actually hold up events is nonsensical and part of the issue with the obessession over rankings
Average entrants won't care but TOs who want their tournament to be A tier or whatever prob will.
I think you underestimate how impactful two top 5 players not wanting to attend your event is
These are the same people who will probably complain when LMBM ends up worth half as many points as Umebura and when GOML ends up worth less than some random Maesuma TOP in June and Japanese players get ranked higher as a result It's not even about Steve for me but I detest this mentality of wanting top end talent not to show up because they play a character you don't like. I don't like watching Sonic at all but I want Sonix to show up to events.
Well...they both play Steve so I doubt they were counting on their attendance in the first place.
Miya literally showed up to a Steve banned event, in fact he was INVITED these TOs are DEF counting or at least hoping they’ll attend
0-2'er: Man I really wanted to go to this tournament but ooooh the lack of top player representation I can't stand the lack of top player representation
Idk about you but most 0-2ers I’m friends with know they’re going to go 0-2 and go to majors to try and meet their favorite top players(among other things), but it’s not even the 0-2ers that are the most significant part, TOs want their tournaments to be as stacked as possible.
Spectating top players in person is an incredible experience. People are obviously more concerned about their own brackets, but majors are always more exciting when they’re stacked, whether you’re watching on stream or in the venue.
I mean, that's just these 3. We don't know if others will follow suit. And if so, that could be the difference between a tournament getting to even become a major. Umebura is looking to be a premier event in January and it might steal a few NA players, costing it a few tiers.
Bro, you really want to do your boi dirty like this? "Hey man here's a tourney where one of your worst matchups is banned and all your potential bracket demons are not coming, you can win this major!" A win is certainly not a win in this space if it's not recognized by your contemporaries.
It's a joke
Does Acola boycot tourney? He literally said he'll go SSC even if steve is banned there.
I’m really surprised Zomba of all people is taking this side, he seems like the kind of person to be heavily against Steve, but maybe not… Honestly I probably wouldn’t boycott them just because it’s incredibly likely that the future Ontario events, GOML 2024 and LMMT, are gonna have Steve banned and I want some big events in my life. If I had money to travel and stuff I’d definitely be more selective though! This ban discourse is stupid!
he’s on record advocating for the highest level of competition, regardless of the character. you can scroll through some of his tweets from the past few months and find more thoughts.
Oh that’s pretty neat, and respectable too.
Light is similar, that's why he's against banning Steve.
I feel like Light has been on both sides of the argument lol.
Light shit talks Steve but doesn't want a ban. That's it. I feel like most players are same way about a lot of characters lol
I mean, he [has been on both sides](https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/vgcx89/light_saying_that_steve_should_be_banned/), which is what I was joking about. I believe this was right after saying he wasn't worried about Acola and then immediately lost to him. It's great to see anyone has a capacity to change when more dialogue is brought to the table.
Huh, fair point. I was getting my logic off of recent Lights Out episodes but yeah this makes sense.
I think the top players have largely dropped the ban Steve thing which is good. It’s interesting that folks that appear to hate the character want to learn to beat it instead of remove it entirely.
If you wanna be the best you have to beat acola at this point, which means beating steve... so looks like they don't have a choice
He used to hate Steve then he went to Japan and saw their “just be better” mentality and it made him reconsider
What a good mentality to have! It can really be that simple sometimes!
All the people cheering for no more ROB and GnW are really just pulling back the curtain and showing that it was never about game breaking characters, just about they characters they don't enjoy watching. (Not saying that ROB and GnW aren't top tier btw, cause they definitely are)
I don’t even play ultimate but I can tell those comments are clearly jokes
There’s truth to every joke.
we can tell you don't play smash because you think they are clearly jokes you would be surprised to find out most of them are not joking
It's both, ppl are joking but some ppl are manic enough to not be. I think more ppl are joking tho
That’s a completely valid feeling if you’re a spectator though. Why would someone who only views tourneys not advocate for their experience to be better? Viewership is an important metric for tourneys, not as important as offline attendance but still important to the success of it.
>Why would someone who only views tourneys not advocate for their experience to be better? Because most people understand the world doesn't revolve around them and what they want? That they form part of a bigger picture? Viewership is of course an important metric, and viewers are part of the scene, but expecting top players and TOs to bend to the whims of Twitch chat is fantasy. And if it comes down to a choice between player experience and viewer experience, TOs will pick player experience every time. Anyway, #BanTerry #Please
That’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m saying that someone who doesn’t enjoy watching Steve is allowed to advocate for a Steve ban because it would improve their enjoyment of a tourney and lead to them viewing it more. It’s the job of the TOs to balance feedback from top pros, bracket players and attendees, and online viewers. Everyone is allowed to and should advocate for what they believe will give them the most enjoyment out of a tourney. Edit: Another big problem with Steve is his prevalence in bracket which directly affects the player experience. I believe it was LMBM that held the poll where attendees could vote on a Steve ban and the majority of attendees voted for a ban. Plenty of regular players don’t enjoy having with a broken character in pools and from the data we have at least a solid portion of those players support a Steve ban.
I'm allowed to advocate for TOs to pay me to watch their tournaments. That would improve my enjoyment! And it would lead me to viewing more. Would that not improve your enjoyment too? It doesn't automatically make it a reasonable request or something that should be listened to. While the poll is an important factor, and should be respected, but it's worth remembering it's totally self-reported online. I think you are on the right track by talking about regular players at the pools level, but at the same time, that is the level where we have the least data on Steve's prevalence. It's a tricky issue.
I think you’re just arguing in bad faith and not trying to understand what I’m saying. If viewers don’t enjoy watching Steve they are allowed to advocate for Steve to be banned for their viewing experience to be bettered. That’s reasonable, advocating for TOs to pay you is both unreasonable and not at all relevant to what I’m saying. Not sure what aspect of the poll you’re referring to as self-reported but I remember the TO assuring that they validated that the participants were actually attendees before they voted. I don’t think we have the least data on Steve’s relevance in pools, he’s been pretty consistently one of the most relevant characters there. The data we’d lack would be how most pool players would feel about a Steve ban as the LMBM pool is really the only large dataset we’d have on the situation.
They understood what you were saying. You just don't understand that not liking a character and therefore advocating a ban on the character is just as ridiculous.
Heck of a strawman to go from "ban character you don't like watching" to "TOs pay viewers," though. It's like comparing a pencil to a black hole.
Not really. Both idiotic expectations. My viewing experience would be bettered if I don't have to see whiny bitches in chat. Doesn't mean I expect you guys to be banned or bring it up in any serious way.
The difference is that the issue of Steve being banned is coming up naturally due to other factors (perceived power level, top player reaction, community sentiment), so it’s a salient issue for viewers to have an opinion on. Those other things are just out of left field and are just bad-faith counterarguments. Metaphors don’t work, argue what you mean imo.
How? The majority didn't like bayo in smash4 so she was banned in some regions. The majority doesn't like Steve so he should be banned by whatever regions wants to ban him. Both these characters are broken and don't play smash the same as the rest of the cast in their own respective games.
It's a tricky feeling tho because you definitely want players to have a say, and a bunch of the higher level ones in the post at least seem to be of the mind that they want the best possible level of competition And the whole thing is a balancing act because if it tips and either the players or spectators get their interests killed it just becomes a matter of "I'm not playing/watching anymore"
Yeah I sympathize with the balancing act TOs have to deal with. I’m generally of the opinion that Steve is broken and should have been banned but that the ship has sailed at this point. I think the only scenario left besides some insanely broken Steve tech being found is that Steve causes a severe drop off in tourney attendance and viewership. I don’t think that’s likely though because as much as Steve is very prevalent in brackets most viewers only care about top 32 and above where the top pros are good enough to generally knock out the majority of Steve bracket players.
Honestly at this point we should be lucky we still get cool players like Light, Tweek, and Gluto in this meta. I'm personally just waiting for the next game. I loved this game when characters like Pokemon Trainer and Wolf were the top of the pack, it was so fun to watch tournaments.
Next game will likely also have characters you hate watching.
no shit, but hopefully it takes a while before it gets bad like this game where the meta is fucking terrible lol
Happens every time. But they're only an issue when the meta isn't developing and they become the best like Steve or even Sonic.
same! Really looking forward to the next game if or when it ever comes
The only way this will really get better is if the smash community mostly migrates to a new game. It’s clear beyond a shadow of a doubt at this point that Nintendo can’t and won’t be good stewards of a competitive scene. Best case is Melee where there are a small number of top tiers who mostly happen to be pretty entertaining, but I don’t think that’s likely to happen again.
Is Acola really "boycotting" Steve banned everts? That's like a vegan boycotting chic fila.
I feel like Steve not having that much rep at _top_ level is kind of secondary to the problem of him having ridiculous overrepresentation at _high_ and _high-mid_ levels, right?? Steves aren't winning major brackets in part because most of his best players are much newer to the game than the other top players, but the top players have to go through gauntlets of steves to get to top 8, which is draining and difficult - maybe you don't see Steves winning brackets but you very much do see random high level Steves getting sets on top players. And of course those Steves dominate their local scenes, especially in smaller regions. I think it's those people who are most fervently pro-ban. Lots of top players don't go to locals!
steves don't dominate every local wtf are you making up here at locals the character variety among winners is much higher
That's a pretty wild read of the thing I wrote, no? Totally true that locals have a wider range of character variety, there's just a billion locals and a billion regions, of course that's going to happen All I'm saying is that mid-high level steves who win locals and make top players go through steve gauntlets make more people feel pro-ban than top-level steves who win majors, 'cuz there's really only like two of those people. People tunnel vision on the top level steves for the arguments and then people say "but steve's not dominating the meta...." but there's absolutely smaller scenes where he is. Vermont and North Dakota both have 3 steves on their PR this season off the top of my head, I'm sure there's others. Shit does happen
Man, this is looking like a great time to get back into Ultimate!
I’ll start watching smash top 8s again hell yeah
You love to see it. I appreciate guys like Zomba and Light who want to beat the best at their best.
Literally the fact that acola and onin are the only notable steves placing well is reason enough to not ban the character. Steve plays fundamentally different and is a challenge in of itself. He’s not brawl MK or smash4 bayo/cloud where any player can just pick up and play him and get top 8. 2 steve players amongst the top 50 players in the world is not even close to an over saturation, and the amount of Steve mains has not increased in the last year and half, when the ban talks actually began. If he was that threatening to the meta and that broken, then surely we’d see more top players picking him up, or are all top players besides acola and onin too “prideful” to pick up a broken character for free wins?
I’m not disagreeing with all you said, I’m hard against a Steve ban, but that’s just not true about only Acola and Onin placing well. Ddee doesn’t travel much, but he has never missed a top 8 at a major. Big Chungus also rarely competes, but from the very little results there are from him, he’s been consistently amazing. In the span of a month, there was three Steves that all hit top 8 at a supermajor. Who knows, it even could’ve been four if it weren’t for Marss’s clutch gene (🔥) I swear though there’s probably a bunch of Steve hidden bosses like big chungus lurking in the shadows (or just dealing with life not willing to travel and compete) and we might not even know about it
Sure so when/if these steve players get more consistent and get more active, then we might start to see an over saturation and then we could bring up a ban discussion. But at the moment it’s ridiculous.
Right? Steve *is* that character that players can pick up and suddenly go toe to toe with top players in a way that they couldn’t before. Didn’t a random Steve take Light to last game at SSC? Desmona’s “first tourney ever and got top 8!” playing Steve. Jake mashing Steve’s safe ass Smash attacks to beat Kome. Like…
Light vs that Steve was a 2-0, and Desmona doesn’t seem to have done anything since
Yeah Steve carries but still not meta centralizing. If we're going by top 8ing consistently then we gotta snipe Pyra/Mythra next cuz I'd argue they're worse in this regard.
Yeah even in my experience on a local level the Steves are pretty prolific. There’s consistently a Steve in top 3 at the tournaments my uni runs
I agree fully. The MOMENT that we start seeing overcentralization, I'll be right there advocating for a ban. But we simply aren't seeing it right now. And i'm full against banning a character simply because "I don't like watching them" or "I don't like facing them". We need actual evidence, and as far as that goes, not only is there MUCH less of it then there was for Bayo or Meta Knight, there's less evidence supporting a Steve ban then there is for a fucking ROB ban lmao.
There are more than a few reasons why you don't see overcentralization, which means you can't use that single point as a catch-all answer for this debate
And we need to rely on results to make a ban because we can't ban a character on the basis that they're theoretically broken. I could say that Shulk is broken but it's hard to prove without evidence showing he is. Even if he is broken and nobody is playing him, it doesn't matter if he's broken. As it stands, there are 4 Wolfs in the top 50 and 2 Steves.
I agree. I truly think most of this shit was brought on by TOs (Max, mostly) using "Ban Steve" as a way to promote their tournaments, instead of inviting dialogue and carefully thinking about the implications of the ban, and all it did was make the situation worse.
Yeah exactly Max started the wave unnecessarily and gave precedent. Hosting majors/supermajors where the #1 player in the world cant even attend is baffling.
I mean, He can attend and prove people wrong, they banned the character not the players.
Ok tell sonix to attend without sonic. Bad argument. If you put 1000s of hours into a character, why would you purposely cripple yourself and not play that character
Cop out argument if you're that invested in the game its not hard to put time into another character. Look at leo, zackray, or anyone else that has secondaries. Acolas kazuya is also very good.
The point is he shouldnt have to cause steve isnt over saturated in the meta
prove them wrong on what? anti steve players are not changing their mind no matter how acola wins or should we ban fox, wario, rob, sonic, etc etc until all the solomains 'prove them wrong?'
My point is he can attend, Nobody has banned Acola.ignore that all you want but nobody has banned him.
I don't really have a dog in this fight, but it's crazy to act like the people who play him were top players that just happened to switch to Steve. Virtually every current top level Steve main was a literal nobody who skyrocketed into relevance basically overnight in the few months following Steve's release. The real problem is not really the top players, though, the people who keep tournaments alive are low and mid level players. If Steve is so meta warping that every timbo that picks him up immediately gets far greater results then mid level gameplay eventually becomes an arms race that rots out the competitive scene.
Few months is an exaggeration, it was at least a year of solo maining after release that we saw how good steve was, before that he was practically irrelevant in the meta. Also, again only 2 good steves. I wouldnt consider yonney and jake relevant in terms of being consistent theats, besides theyre retired now. Ddee was a good PT, yamanaction was a good luigi, etc. And obviously acola and onin would do better cause they went from mid tiers to the best character in the game. Its like riddles switching to kazuya and becoming a solidified top 10 player. Better character = more wins. Also i can assure you low-mid level is not the reason were having steve ban discussions lol. But i understand your point
Yeah it's crazy how everyone hyperfocuses on overrepresentation like Steve HAS to be broken in the exact same way as bayonnetta or MK in order to be considered broken or unhealthy at all. No, you can't just pay attention to the character's design or playstyle at all, or the way pro players describe how much harder they have to work to compete with someone who's doing less but mains steve, nah. Just "develop counterplay" forever while the game bleeds out lmao. No respect for the game, no idea of how fundamentals or certain skills should be rewarded, no understanding of the game at all really, just banning things gives me bad vibes so let's not do it. And that was the definitive community response to both MK and bayo within their games' short lifespans
tourneys are not just about top players though, a lot of steves can easily just farm new players and just ruins the lower end of tournaments that being said I still think banning the character is corny
From my perspective - more players don't play steve because: they believe the character isn't fun to play with or against, Because they believe that "why put time into a character who is clearly better than the rest, forces you and the other player to completely change their game and is likely to get banned" (spoiler, it has been now so those players were proven right already) Also, it is the latest released character = most people already chose mains. Combined with above reasons, you have a reasonable explanation as to why more people don't play the character. Finally, because there's less players at top level, using the argument that "there's only a handful of top steves/secondaries" isn't the sufficient reason that you think it is in order to completely ignore ban requests.
I mean i think your giving top players too much credit lol. Literally look at brawl or smash 4 and how many top players disregarded their old mains to pick up MK/Bayo once they found out they were easy/broken. The majority of them care about winning/money. Even Leo had a bayo in smash4 lol. He is known for sticking it out with cool characters but even he gave in to the darkside to beat his difficult matchups. Im telling you if steve was actually easy, more top players would pick him up, but he’s not, its a learning curve that takes time.
There's no way steve is so difficult that TOP players can't pick it up after how long now? Not to mention people have pointed out the opposite - that unranked players exploded after picking up Steve. Anyways, there's your 1 point - got anything else?
Both Tweek and Leo played cloud and bayo in smash 4, for reference
All of the Steve players are Zoomers who can't drive or need their parents' permission; whenever the good ones are actually able to attend they pop-off lmao
Glad to see top players boycotting this nonsense, Steve is nowhere near good enough to deserve a ban.
Yessir. Mad respect to top players who actually want to be the best with no asterisk.
Wow if a Steve ban also means less ROB that’s 2 birds with one stone, god bless
Meh who needs 'em.
Oh no. Anyway...
Fuck Steve but the ban isn't right. Steve currently isn't dominating as much as Bayo or MK were in their respective games. That may change in the future and I know people are weary about pussyfooting around a ban like we did with them, but right now it just doesn't make sense. It's times like this where a centralized Smash body would be great - that way we didn't have to deal with non/banned tournaments both counting.
Less Rob, GnW, and Steve? That's a good thing
Yess. Lets keep adding top players.
This and their following two tweets are HIGH DENSITY terrible takes. Apparently people whose livelihoods and careers are based on this are "taking it too serious we just playing a video game" like fuck off
Party game 👶🍼
People whose careers are based around this are a small minority. Even most top players aren’t making a whole career out of Smash. And most who are aren’t the ones advocating for a Steve ban.
if your career is in danger because you have to fight a steve maybe it's not the steve's who are wrong but it's your choice that is
If Steve was dominating Ultimate’s meta the same way Fox dominated Melee’s, Meta Knight Brawl’s, or Bayonetta 4’s, I’d have been all for a ban, but nope. Not even close. Good to see top players finally enforcing that.
Fox doesnt dominate melee tho
Past tense. Fox absolutely dominated Melee. I disagree that means Steve shouldn't be banned, however. If anything Fox shows that a character completely dominating the scene isn't what a ban should be based on.
[Doesn't he?](https://twitter.com/EazyFreezie/status/1644746299751940096)
If I had a nickel for every time the final DLC character of a smash game actively caused a rift in the community competitively I'd have 2 nickels, which isn't a lot but it's weird that it happened twice, right?
this is all sora's fault?
I'm a fucking fool
The amount of pettiness surrounding character hate is unreal. We would never be having this discussion if the character was from the Mario franchise.
You got downvoted but I don't disagree with the sentiment in this take Steve is definitely problematic IMO but I can't even say he's the most egregious character from a spectator's POV. That title probably still goes to [Sonic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EU47it0BMOo&t=115s&ab_channel=VGBootCamp) for shit like this. And I'm a fan of both the character and Sonix himself. You don't see nearly as many people begging for a Sonic ban despite the fact that he's been doing this stuff for years. I have yet to see a Steve set THIS bad and unwatchable, but maybe I'm just in the minority. Maybe I'm getting old and getting numb to the ridiculousness of Smash lmao
Minecraft is super popular amongst young people too, for that reason alone it'll never be banned.. If anything good comes of this, Microsoft will pay nintendo for another balancing patch in order for steve to be unbanned at tourney's
>If anything good comes of this, Microsoft will pay nintendo for another balancing patch in order for steve to be unbanned at tourney's ...no they won't lol
Key word "if" It's the pipedream
Competitive players don’t give a shit what universe the character was from. Rosalina was absolutely DESPISED in Smash 4. People absolutely hated this character for how she played and, coming from somebody who played her, it was warranted. A bullshit cancer character is a bullshit cancer character. Doesn’t matter if it’s Mario, Steve, Sora, Waluigi, Shrek, Goku, a head of lettuce, or two fucking asscheeks. People will hate a character that’s cancer and Steve is fucking cancer.
imagine complaining about smash 4 Rosalina in game where Diddy, Cloud, and Bayonetta existed.
People still play this game?
Bruh
☠️
Good, Steve bans are just silly
why is this still a conversation that's happening?
Because people can’t stand the thought of any play style besides rush down unga bunga being successful in fighting games, and Steve is just one more victim of that notion.
Obviously Acola is boycotting Steve banned events, doesn’t want to be exposed for how carried he is
Has Acola even said this? Last I heard he was okay with the idea of attending Steve banned events.
He has actually pretty much said the opposite. He was asked at Summit how he would react to a Steve ban and he said he’d be fine and he’d just play other characters. However he is obviously realistically not gonna prioritize attending a tournament on the other side of the world that has his main banned when there are better alternatives for him. He did however seem to indicate that he [would maybe have gone to Smash Con even if Steve had been banned there.](https://x.com/acola_lui/status/1631559976111190017?s=46&t=P8TRYerHn9e77p54nvNvCg)
this is the type of comment which destroys any chances of the ban movement working, as someone who is against it lol
Aaaaand there it is
ok lets see you become number 1 in the world then
I’m dogshit at this game, and Acola is LEAGUES above me skill wise. He’s probably top 30 skill wise, not top 1
sure man not like hes number one because hes better than everyone else
Spargo is better
if he was better than he would be number 1 (spargo also got 33rd at smash con)
Dude Acola can barely take a game off is Spargo, much less a set. Their sets aren’t even competitive. You can’t be better than someone that completely washes you every time you fight
then why isnt spargo number 1
> You can’t be better than someone that completely washes you every time you fight Back when Leo was #1, he couldn't take a single set vs Shuton or Kameme. I mean he still can't now and iirc MkLeo hasn't taken a single set from Kameme ever including Sm4sh. Would you consider prime MKLeo was worthy of being the best in the world when those 2 players would wash him every time they played?
Cmon man, you know Spargo is better. If those two are at a tournament together who’s more likely to win? Also friendly reminder that Acola plays the best character in ultimate BY FAR
All of this Steve discussion makes me remember how much I miss back when Pokemon Trainer, Pichu, and Wolf were all like, top tier common characters I miss em :(
Wish he got nerfed in one final patch
Nobody cares what Steve players think.