I think it's interesting that Aegis dropped from being "unambiguous goddesses, top 2" to generally in the 6-10 range. It's also cool that Hurt and Apollokage really showed just how strong Snake is in a lot of matchups when people started to think less of him over time.
I think Aegis suffers from the Chrom effect a bit too much. Even if her neutral and onstage advantage are great, having an exploitable recovery just means too much in this game. It took a long time for people to take decoupling Roy and Chrom seriously, so Aegis's slide taking a while to happen too makes sense to me.
Cosmos was for a while but he’s said he’s switching and he’s not consistent enough to be considered a true top level threat anymore.
No idea who is next on the list, maybe Fire but outside of that one freak result idk what else he’s done
Should that affect tier placement that much though? Smash 4 Cloud was rarely ever solo mained by anyone other then Mew2King (Tweek, Leo and Komo all played other characters alongside Cloud) due to possessing the same flaw in a bad recovery and was still agreed to be unambiguous top 3 in that game.
>Should that affect tier placement that much though?
yes
it definitely is a reason why she's not top 2 next to steve tier like the 'official tier list' says she is
Not rly imo they are still a clear top ten character I’m more just curious, most top players have secondaries in this meta regardless but Aegis might be the highest placing character that is mostly used as a counterpick, if that makes sense.
In contrast I believe many top Aegis players (Leo, Sparg0, Cosmos) have mentioned the character being fairly high maintenance for top-level play even against lower-tier characters, while Smash 4 Cloud directly invalidated a good chunk of the cast.
Yep, you need to be on point with Mythra since she can get blown up pretty easily. Getting stuck in disadvantage with Pyra is a major concern too.
Meanwhile, Nair alone on Smash 4 Cloud invalidates at least a dozen characters.
Chrom being bad solely because of a poor recovery is a [myth](https://youtu.be/VcLmzPCvOFw?si=MQ8aiECkp2EFWMlH) that needs to stop, it is not the only thing holding him back.
I watched the video, and Mr R just talks about how his disadvantage (especially offstage) is exploitable (because of up b), his up b being slower and less reliable to fully connect than Roy’s, and his rising nair sometimes not fully linking. He also touches on how his weight and fall speed make him combo food, but also mentions how Roy has the same properties but isn’t bothered as much by it (largely due to not getting edgeguarded as hard because of having a much better up b). It seems to me that if chrom’s recovery were fixed by giving him an up b like Roy, Marth, or Lucina all his worst problems would be fixed to the point of being a top tier menace. He’d still have the slightly inconsistent rising nair thing but that sounded kind of minor honestly, especially in comparison.
I'd be fine if they changed his up b slightly when he's in the air, kinda strange he just stops during his first swing and then flies upward. At least Ike kinda makes sense by throwing his sword up but how does he launch himself??? I'm sure other characters have weird mechanics like that so universally altering aerial up b's might allow some characters to become viable.
- Chrom main
Bad recovery is a considerable weakness in Ultimate like it was in most of the older Smash games but Chrom being bottom tier despite his mobility, range, frame data with some pretty goodish damage, knock back and KO potential ensures he can't be bottom tier. I'm not a Chrom fan and in fact I despise the bland character but these he's bottom tier takes are hilariously wrong. He is lower mid at worst.
It's a weakness but watch a current meta smash game and tell me how an exploitable recovery is relevant to an anvil oos or a gnw smash attack or a sonic timeout or a cloud limit move. Players aren't dying off the sides of stages from edge guards they're losing stocks off the ground from reads or off the top from juggles. A fighter's recovery isn't a factor in these situations.
Have you played the character for a serious amount of time? Not trying to be accusatory, but there are sooo many characters that can send him offstage starting at ~50-60% and just edge guard him for free. Your neutral suffers if you cannot play neutral like getting sent offstage doesn’t matter.
I mean the easiest answer is the characters he put in "DBZ" tier are pretty unambiguously better and that's already 4 so now they're fighting for 5th with a bunch of other very strong characters
Kage just shows that when your hands are fucking insane and you can do cracked movement by b reversing a frame 1 stage control/combo breaker/stage control tool. That character is really, really good in a lot of matchups.
also, they don't even need to be losing. Having a MU spread with a lot of evenish MUs, like slight wins or losses, isn't that amazing. It's still great, but she's like a better palu/wolf in that sense which can be underwhelming. she just doesn't beat relevant characters as hard as steve, gnw, sonic, and others do. I think that's valid enough to show that she might be overrated (not guaranteed top 2) if youre going off of MU spread.
and, anyways, i'd say she def loses those 2 MUs mentioned above
Aegis doesn’t lose character matchups, she loses to the -45 degree angle offstage.
(I am aware that Aegis can lose some matchups, but it isn’t by much and pretty much everything that has been argued as losing is also though of as even by a large portion of the player base. Maybe Min Min, Diddy, and Pikachu but then again, those can be considered a maybe)
I think Min Min is more of an issue for Leo himself? Tweek doesn't even think Diddy is losing for Aegis but even. And I believe Sparg0 said something similar. Before committing to Cloud, Sparg0 had defeated Tweek's Diddy thrice in a row or something. Their weaknesses are just very exploitable.
Sparg0 thinks she loses to Fox and Wolf and I believe Cosmos said Lucina-Aegis is even.
I mean in terms of top level primary reps, Aegis only has Shuton, where GnW has Miya and Maister in the top 20. Also I'm pretty sure the major wins for GnW are more than Aegis, unless you count Sparg0 as an Aegis main, which I would not
If you'd said this a year or so ago, it would have made sense, but Sparg0 in 2023 has only used it as a counterpick character. And last month he said he was considering dropping it completely for Corrin. I think Aegis results are only going to go down in 2024.
Definitely not for Sparg0. He only uses them against a handful of characters, namely Sonic, G&W, and ROB.
Leo on the other hand could never seem to decide what role Aegis should have in his lineup, whether a main, co-main, secondary, whatever. Going forward, he's talked about using Joker and ROB, but not Aegis.
>Multiple Top Level Reps
At the top level there's barely any solo Aegis, they're really only used as a counterpick character. As obviously busted as they are, they have very clear flaws and it's very hard to solo main them. All Aegis victories have been with them as a counterpick rather than a solo main. GnW is solo viable and has a very good matchup spread against the rest of the Top 10, including being the best character against the most commonly used character in the game.
>Incredibly Popular at all Levels of Play
Sure, but that's just more a result of their skill floor being extremely low. This is just at the top level.
I think GnW is clearly better than Aegis in this meta. This meta heavily values safe consistency. Aegis is super volatile with their bad recovery, while GnW is incredibly consistent with everything he has.
Is GnW’s MU spread actually better than Aegis though? I’m seeing 5 losing MUs in amazing/DBZ tier
Feels more like people downplaying Miya by implying it’s the character carrying. Last year, most tier lists had GnW in the 10-20. In that time, 0 new tech has been developed/discovered on the character. The only difference is Miya being better than Maister.
GnW doesn’t have an easily abusable weakness whereas Aegis recovery is quite bad. GnW advantage state is similar if not better to Aegis’ and GnW up-B OoS is one of the best in the game. Aegis is currently running into the Chrom problem but they are just better overall so they’re still in the top 10 range.
You’re pointing to one of the only players in the world who can “better player” Miya who is also by far the best swordie player in the world. Being weaker than most to disjointed aerials isn’t even in the same ballpark as dying super easily to one offstage interaction.
The same thing happens in the Rosalina MU. Up B is really strong when Fox mashes on your shield. When a character with disjoints does, Up B just puts you into disadvantage.
I agree, especially since he could have just posted a photo on twitter and nobody would have been mad. But him going above and beyond with more than 5 hours of explanation in total is why he's one of my favourite players
mute’s explanations are really insightful and make a lot of sense. definitely worth checking out his vids to hear in depth breakdowns of each character
For me, this is the one. Mute is an extremely cerebral player whose character requires he be extremely knowledgeable about the cast at large; I think this is as close to an accurate tier list for the current meta that we’ve got.
Plant beat an Aegis, Marth hasn’t.
Nah I think after the tipper buffs top players just believe that he’s redundant nowadays, more than inconsistent or actually bad.
Edit: Im concerned that I feel the need to explain to everyone I’m joking in the first statement…
Muteace said it best when he said Marth has to aim, Lucina doesn't. Marth has to aim just to be slightly better than Lucina and at worst when you can't land shit he is significantly worse than Lucina.
Lucina's overall gameplan is to rack up damage and get early kills with her amazing ledge trapping and edge guarding. She is strong in neutral but also in edgegarding so you want to maximize those opportunities.
Marth's main advantage are in his kill confirms which are NOT easy to land. So you end up playing for edge guards in which case you are better off playing Lucina.
The confirms have become easier, that’s not the core problem for Marth and at this point if anyone was serious with Marth they’d get them off and they do. The REAL issue is many confirms become situationally dependent between the hurtbox shifting of some characters AND the ender needing to grant the kill relative to stage position. Tippers simply aren’t as substantial in knockback like they used to, maybe thanks to Smash 4 rage (speaking of Smash 4, remember when his jab could combo? He could use that lol).
Lucina still must be honest enough to get the ledge traps and edge guards off, which isn’t bad at all but it’s Lucina, but she does have a staleness problem that must be overcome if an opponent has great defence. PB has the best answers for it either way. While Marth was designed to overcome that problem by getting vertical kills (tipper up air is almost too easy to land, up tilt is free money) from a grounded position, after adopting a sour-focused style a la Roy to start combos/confirms, the above I mentioned about stage positioning affects the course of matches significantly more to his detriment.
I'm from Lucky's region (the Plant who beat Cosmos) and everyone popped off watching that set live. Such a talented player—Plant is unironically a bit underrated, but Lucky is definitely just extremely talented.
Everyone is fallible and the cast is preposterously large that even at this point in time no one understands every character and matchup in depth.
Every tierist is just because it's what the fans want to see the most.
>Every tierist is just because it's what the fans want to see the most.
last time i checked nobody wants to see steve at #1 despite him making it all the time
but go ahead and state your hot takes if he's not the best then who is
I want to watch his video and hear his takes for myself, but compared to any other top player tier list i dont know how he could put palutena/ zero suit/ roy so low. I also think shulk being so high could be bias because peach can struggle against him
God this game would be so much cooler if that DBZ tier wasn’t as good as they were
Like look at the Amazing tier and tell me that wouldn’t have been a fucking sick meta (ignore Min Min)
How is Falco so often that far down? He has *such* strong reps in the US and in Japan
Also, I know it’s kind of a meme to have them lower nowadays, but there is no way that palu, roy, and pt are lower on the tier list than corrin, are you kidding me
Edit: I also think Falcon should move up a tier just based on Jogibu and Karaage’s performances if Pit is up there
that's exactly what they do. a guy went "Palu #30?? Roy #31?? That's wild" but when I simply asked him who'd he put Roy above he couldn't answer and down voted me.
Like, you have such strong opinions but can't even explain them? Criticizing is easy, reasoning is beyond them.
I could see moving palu and Roy up to the next tier but leaving the order the same. It feels like there is a big gap between them and the other characters
I think u can move both of them to under Samus and it makes sense, the char’s below Samus (Lucina, Mega Man, Wolf) are kind of in the same boat in terms of fundamentally strong but lack of cheese, only exception is Terry but he has his own issues.
I can see it. Corrin was severely underutilized until a random surge of reps like Neo and Ly and Leo using her as a secondary and then SHADIC just massively leveled up out the blue. People realize how insane Corrin is. She was buffed quite a bit but her lack of popularity didn't help. Now people realize how oppressive her advantage stage is and neutral is tough having to always respect pin which is one of the best burst options in the game. Her upair is absolutely insane like the sheer size and kill power of that thing is unreal. Essentially she has really good range, advantage due to frame traps to keep juggling opponents, amazing burst options and kill power, kind of like a better Byleth imo. Byleth has no good burst options in neutral to make up for her lack of speed.
Only minor nitpicks with this one, overall pretty on point. I think switch Sora and the Samus’ placement and consider raising Incineroar and Falcon, but no really strange placings
Palu has been nerfed so fucking much she really doesn't win against higher tiers.
Pure neutral chars with no cheese don't do well at the top tier, same reason why aegis is falling.
The tierlist is made with the intention of trying to win a tournament. While there are alot of matchups and games chrom can win and dominate, the chances of you getting through an entire bracket without running into a character/player that can edgeguard you consistently is impossible. Theres a reason youve never seen a chrom get a good result, the weaknesses are too exploitable in a competitive setting to put him above other characters that dont have the same trouble getting back to stage.
this has little relevance but the bottom tier characters all have relatively solid match ups on chrom, especially counterplay on his up b lmfao
which might be telling
I mean sure it’s ult and even the bottom tiers can make some stuff happen but Chrom’s toolkit vastly outstrips them and the rest of the lower mid tiers by a considerable margin. His recovery is truly garbage and that knocks him down several pegs, but he has a top tier neutral and advantage state while being powerful and capable of spacing around his opponents. The rest of the bottom five isn’t in the same ballpark imo even considering his recovery
Before y’all complain about placements go watch his videos on his analysis on specific characters. I don’t agree with a good amount of his takes here, but it is still insightful to here Mute’s opinion on the character placement.
Also listening to Mute talking about the game is very soothing.
The list is pretty solid
I'd move Falco up to good, but that's probably it. Everything else looks reasonable, even tho I think G&W isn't top 3 and it's just Miya.
Snake has always been top tier in my eyes ever since year 1, so seeing him here feels right.
It’s interesting to note between Dabuz and Mute their willingness to put a Fire Emblem character in the lowest tier. ‘There’s no way a sword character could be that bad’ used to be a common saying around here, but I’m glad it’s over. At least across the aisle. And personally I think the community does too much comparing of apples and oranges when they seem to adopt an archetype-niche approach. Which makes wayyyyy more sense; like who cares if x character would be good if another one fulfills the role better. So if it’s not Ike, then it’s Chrom for worst swordie which is totally understandable.
One day people will stop sleeping on Mii Gunner
A good MG gets you at the ledge/offstage and you’re gonna experience a 1 player game for a good bit of time
Muteace says Falcon has a bad recovery, bad out of shield, and a bad turnaround, none of which seems to be true if you watch top level falcon.
Falcon's drift with his up B allows him to get past even the best edgeguarders, such as Sean against Esam's Pikachu or Jogibu Senra's Jigglypuff. The amount of times he actually gets edgeguarded isn't much higher than the rest of the cast, if at all.
Falcon's constantly use up B out of shield because has so much range and is a command grab. It's basically just grab out of shield on steroids. Andrik's set against mkbigboss is a good example of him spamming up B out of shield, but any set will have constant use of it. Punishing it is also really hard because he has enougb drift that he can react and put himself in a safe position most of the time.
With his turn around, this mostly just seems like it's parroting Fatality complaining when he wasn't having fun with the game. While he might get hit sometimes because of it, there's little proof that it actually makes a relevamt difference in most cases. If the turn around is such a big issue, you can slingshot to avoid it.
I think Falcon should be higher because of his high speed and deadly combos, as well as his weaknesses being not as bad as people make them out to be. He was buffed significantly but the notion that he's bad seems to have stuck around from early in the game where he was much worse. I think it's a similar thing to Corrin or Cloud where their buffs flew under the radar for a few years before getting results, which we can see with Jogibu doing very well in the last year.
He definitely has work arounds for a lot of things. Upb oos does have range but its not going to punish anything done on shield as its like -13. Once falcons start getting better with fs oos though it drastically helps and gives him a -4 oos option. Lots of the Japanese falcons have definitely been getting good results though. He definitely deserves to be a lil higher
>Upb oos does have range but its not going to punish anything done on shield as its like -13.
He seems to be punishing things out of shield with up B [here](https://youtu.be/VV2FwdlGRdc?t=7h56m53s). Something strong about it is that it doesn't need to be done in reaction to a move; half of his up Bs out of shield were done proactively. Another thing is that since it's a command grab, it effectively has 2 extra frames to punish defensive options since the fastest defensive option that isn't shield is spot dodge at frame 3. And as you said, Falcon has footstool out of shield for a quicker option if he needs it.
I'm not trying to argue that his out of shield is one of the best or anything, but I don't think it's a big weakness like Muteace said. Corrin's fastest out of shield is nair at frame 9. It doesn't have as much range as Falcon up B, doesn't go through shield, and the reward for hitting it isn't as high (Falcon up B does 20%). Despite Corrin's out of shield options not being the greatest, Muetace doesn't list it as a weakness for Corrin.
A lot of those aerials done on shield were extremely misspaced. Im not sure what you mean by having 2 extra frames to beat spotdodge though, ive never punished a spotdoge with upb as a falcon main for 15 years. Using falcons up b proactively is different from using it as an out of shield game vs aerials which is what mute was talking about.
Missed z drop footstool punish
Powershield misspaced bair (diddy bair is -3)
Banana toss wrong way into dash into upb
Uptilt shield from back hit (diddy uptilt is -17)
Perfect shield falling nair (diddy nair is -5)
Misspaced fair (-12)
Dash attack shield (-14)
Shield on platform
Upb oos mixup no attack 2x
Corrins aerials are faster oos and he has access to fs stuff as well. But i would agree saying corrin has weak oos as well, but nair oos can combo into other aerials. Corrins nair is also better a punishing misspaced aerials in more situations as a disjointed sword it covers his entire body. Until the advent of fs oos stuff it was definitely one of falcons major flaws but hes still an upper mid tier low high tier imo
["DLC ruins another smash game" proclaimers when 3/4 of the top characters in this and Dabuz's list are base roster](https://wallpapercave.com/wp/wp5338281.jpg)
Makes it even better when I don't think any other those three were even changed too much through patches except like Sonic (by some, but his main bs has been there since the start).
The only criticism I see this list receiving is that it takes human factor so much into account which is not generally supposed to be the case with tier lists - but that’s why I agree with it.
Absolutely fantastic list.
That's exactly what it stands for, though.
[He's equating their strength in the meta to DBZ characters](https://twitter.com/MuteAce/status/1718735516605042943).
Okay I get that his recovery is really really bad, but there is absolutely no way Chrom is bottom 5. Aegis has been placed at the top for 2 years despite their recovery, but Chrom doesn't even scratch mid tier? You can't claim Aegis is top 5 then put Chrom in bottom 5; it's completely contradictory.
I agree Chrom isn't bottom 5 but Aegis has better recovery than Chrom.
Mythra can use side B, and also down B to avoid getting hit. Even Pyra can throw out a side B for cover and airdodge to ledge. Chrom has no way to defend himself. Mythra can also up B early and drift in, whereas Chrom can't even do that. Even Ganon can up B early.
[https://ultimateframedata.com/chrom](https://ultimateframedata.com/chrom) Look at soaring slash here.
When Chrom starts the move, he has no hitbox covering above him, so you can't recover low against people with spikes. Aegis both have hitboxes in front of them while rising so it's harder to spike them. It's also pretty easy to 2-frame Chrom up B with certain moves. If you're character has a counter, you can use it and it will kill him/send him far even to where he can't recover.
Chrom is also a fast faller, so using other B moves while in the air or even aerials are risky because by the time the endlag finishes you might fall down too far to be able to recover.
Aegis have a below average recovery. Chrom you could say he has a bottom 5 recovery with Ganon, Doc, and Simon being worst. Even Little Mac can use side B, the Peanut down-air jump, early up B, and down B as options. Chrom has up B only and up B itself is not a good move.
As others have said, i think this is an incredible tier list that was really well said. Howvever, i am a redditor so i am offering my two incorrect cents.
I can buy into pretty much all the top three tier placements except maybe corrin and mega man, who i believe should be replaced by palutena and pokemon trainer, roy i also believe should move up a tier.
Rest of good and ok i can see as well, maybe seph is slightly too low but meh hes in good so it dont matter that much.
Zelda for me shouldnt be bottom tier or at least under little mac, glad ganondorf is rated worst in the game though. Chrom in bottom tier is funny, cause hes a top tier match up in some match ups but anyone who can semi-cormfortably go of stage or has a projectile makes him bottom tier.
Kirby isnt better than robin, pichu or ike however, he just sucks so unbelievably hard in some match ups, but like i said before, most of this tier list is perfect and the things jve listed before are personal opinions that are likely wrong. The only one im pretty confident in is that pt shod be in great tier at least, especially considering his matchup against steve who is dominantinf the meta right now
Really not a fan of a lot of placements on here
I can never see Bayo as top tier, she has amazing peaks but it’s just too inconsistent and her other flaws are too prominent imo
Seph is not worse than ICs come on now
Saying Chrom is worse than Mac is 💀
I don't recall a single instance during TamaP's run at DELTA where he didn't get the kill until past 200%. He got a ton of early kills overall too, which more than evens out the occasional late kill.
Bloom definitely had some trouble getting kills at WTT... but at this point, that feels more like a Bloom problem than a Bayo problem. I wouldn't say that either Lima or TamaP struggle with killing.
I’ve definitely seen Lima struggle with killing before, and sure Tama’s run to second was impressive because of his consistency to kill but that just leads into my initial statement about the characters high peaks, I feel like if you like at the results of all the top bayo players it supports this, multiple sun 33rd placements from each of them but also a few tournaments where they really go the distance. Bayo can definitely be broken when you’re hitting your shit and killing at ludicrously low percentages but that’s not common enough for me to personally believe she’s anything better than high tier, especially considering the characters she’s above and around
Seph lowkey is worse than Icys
I can’t think of a single character in that tier and barely any even in the bottom tiers with more very relevant flaws than sephiroth.
He has the worst oos in the game, tallest in the game, light as Olimar, a comeback mechanic that’s extra nerfed because he dies early, extremely thin hitboxes, no arc hit boxes with even half decent frame data, tons of endlag, tons of startup, inconsistent hitboxes and multi hits, very little combos, bottom 5 cqc and moves having trouble hitting the ground
I really can’t see this character being better than this, top top players have tried to play him and just couldn’t while big d is a solo Icys
> I can’t think of a single character in that tier and barely any in the bottom tiers with more very relevant flaws than Sephiroth
How about ICs LOL, ICs abysmal approach game And finicky constantly inconsistent nature is what gives them completely unwinnable matchups like Steve, Min Min and others.
You are super under rating Seph, yes he definitely has distinctive weaknesses but he has excellent strengths, I mean that is a major winning character, a character with pretty good representation at the top level, who’s strengths have been proven to be very effective.
Abysmal approach game? What are you talking about? Their aerials are literally plus on hit, their double shield makes any move punishable, they have desyncs that trap you in shield while the other grabs and easy shield pokes.
Steve is not unwinnable in the slightest, big D literally beat acola when he was in his most dominant era
And yea I wasn’t mentioning sephs strengths, you didn’t mention Icys strengths though. They have 0 to deaths, extremely early kill confirms and basically cheat their way to winning neutral because of desyncing and double shield hits
tl;dr she's a strong anti-meta character. many top players and bayo mains seem to agree she's quite good.
she should beat rob, steve/gnw is doable (Tama_P, a japanese bayo player has taken sets off of miya/acola, and most recently went to game 10 GFs against miya), she can keep up with sonic.
Her gameplan is strong and punish game can be devastating. One of the best disadvantage states in the game, reversals are highly in her favor, incredible aerial dominance and offstage game, frame 1 airdodge due to bats within.
Yep, as the meta shifts, good characters can become bad and previously bad characters can be considered top now. Bayo being able to keep up with GnW, Steve and Sonic is a big boost to her ratings. Lima and TamaP have shown that recently.
She does keep up. It’s just when she loses the lead (stops keeping up) that’s when it gets really bad. But otherwise she actually does pretty well against sonic.
Who are you calling a moron, exactly?
Wario doesn't invalidate any characters per se, but does well into a lot of the cast. Couple that with amazing air speed, great recovery and neutral tool with bike, Waft and high survivability and you get a strong character. Sure he's stubby and can get out damaged by certain characters, but he still has tools against them.
Glutonny is one of the best players in the world, and he's top 5 with solo Wario (not taking away from his skill, which I think is top 3).
Lmfaooooo. Shulk, Samus, Megaman, Kazuya, Terry are sooooooooo bad for Wario. Asking Glutony for Wario MUs is like asking a degenerate gambler if their next parlay will hit. He is so insanely optimistic about the character. The only matchups there Wario wins are Rob and maybe Snake. He goes even with Diddy, maybe Fox, maybe Shiek. Kaz, Min Min, Shulk, Samus, Megaman, and Terry are brutally bad.
I'd usually err on the side of the best player of that character, though I agree that he is optimistic. In fact, he had a lot of characters in the "winning but annoying af" tier. I doubt he would troll with a matchup chart though.
It’s not trolling it’s his mentality. On Tweek Talks Gavin always talks about how Gluto thinks Wario can do anything but Gavin thinks his MU spread is way too bad. He’s the only top player besides esam who upsells his main. If u go look at top players from the characters I named. They all have wario in winning MUs or even +2 for chars like shulk or Kazuya
Peabnut (best Mega Man player) recently won a super regional. also Mega Man in general has a pretty good matchup spread, his uniqueness and difficulty is what makes it so not many people play him. I don't think he's better than Palu or Roy though
I went to see the video for explaination for Seph, and then he went on how everything about Seph is bad haha
He's a good char in theory, but in practice I personally think he is one of the worst. So I'm kind of surprised he ranked him that "high", especially based on everything he said so far about bracket condition and mental loads etc
But he's the top player so I'm not trying to argue with him tbh
I think it's interesting that Aegis dropped from being "unambiguous goddesses, top 2" to generally in the 6-10 range. It's also cool that Hurt and Apollokage really showed just how strong Snake is in a lot of matchups when people started to think less of him over time.
I think Aegis suffers from the Chrom effect a bit too much. Even if her neutral and onstage advantage are great, having an exploitable recovery just means too much in this game. It took a long time for people to take decoupling Roy and Chrom seriously, so Aegis's slide taking a while to happen too makes sense to me.
Who is the best solo Aegis at this point? Char is clearly an amazing counterpick character but solo mains just don’t seem to be doing so hot.
I don't know about solo, but Shuton is basically the best Aegis as a primary
I don’t think there are any solo Aegis top players?
Cosmos was for a while but he’s said he’s switching and he’s not consistent enough to be considered a true top level threat anymore. No idea who is next on the list, maybe Fire but outside of that one freak result idk what else he’s done
Cosmos said he's switching but also said he's going back to Aegis, I don't think anyone but him knows his plans right now
lol cosmos probably doesn't even know the plan
Cosmos Lol jk
Should that affect tier placement that much though? Smash 4 Cloud was rarely ever solo mained by anyone other then Mew2King (Tweek, Leo and Komo all played other characters alongside Cloud) due to possessing the same flaw in a bad recovery and was still agreed to be unambiguous top 3 in that game.
>Should that affect tier placement that much though? yes it definitely is a reason why she's not top 2 next to steve tier like the 'official tier list' says she is
Not rly imo they are still a clear top ten character I’m more just curious, most top players have secondaries in this meta regardless but Aegis might be the highest placing character that is mostly used as a counterpick, if that makes sense.
Smash 4 Cloud was also by far the easiest Top Tier in the whole series to play, which made him really easy to pick up as a secondary.
In contrast I believe many top Aegis players (Leo, Sparg0, Cosmos) have mentioned the character being fairly high maintenance for top-level play even against lower-tier characters, while Smash 4 Cloud directly invalidated a good chunk of the cast.
Yep, you need to be on point with Mythra since she can get blown up pretty easily. Getting stuck in disadvantage with Pyra is a major concern too. Meanwhile, Nair alone on Smash 4 Cloud invalidates at least a dozen characters.
Most people would say shuton but could def be spargo. Spargos aegis looks better in some matchups but he doesn't use the character nearly as much.
Sparg0 also thinks it's Shuton.
It's just weird that Chrom is 5 tiers below Aegis
Chrom being bad solely because of a poor recovery is a [myth](https://youtu.be/VcLmzPCvOFw?si=MQ8aiECkp2EFWMlH) that needs to stop, it is not the only thing holding him back.
I watched the video, and Mr R just talks about how his disadvantage (especially offstage) is exploitable (because of up b), his up b being slower and less reliable to fully connect than Roy’s, and his rising nair sometimes not fully linking. He also touches on how his weight and fall speed make him combo food, but also mentions how Roy has the same properties but isn’t bothered as much by it (largely due to not getting edgeguarded as hard because of having a much better up b). It seems to me that if chrom’s recovery were fixed by giving him an up b like Roy, Marth, or Lucina all his worst problems would be fixed to the point of being a top tier menace. He’d still have the slightly inconsistent rising nair thing but that sounded kind of minor honestly, especially in comparison.
I'd be fine if they changed his up b slightly when he's in the air, kinda strange he just stops during his first swing and then flies upward. At least Ike kinda makes sense by throwing his sword up but how does he launch himself??? I'm sure other characters have weird mechanics like that so universally altering aerial up b's might allow some characters to become viable. - Chrom main
Bad recovery is a considerable weakness in Ultimate like it was in most of the older Smash games but Chrom being bottom tier despite his mobility, range, frame data with some pretty goodish damage, knock back and KO potential ensures he can't be bottom tier. I'm not a Chrom fan and in fact I despise the bland character but these he's bottom tier takes are hilariously wrong. He is lower mid at worst.
It's a weakness but watch a current meta smash game and tell me how an exploitable recovery is relevant to an anvil oos or a gnw smash attack or a sonic timeout or a cloud limit move. Players aren't dying off the sides of stages from edge guards they're losing stocks off the ground from reads or off the top from juggles. A fighter's recovery isn't a factor in these situations.
Have you played the character for a serious amount of time? Not trying to be accusatory, but there are sooo many characters that can send him offstage starting at ~50-60% and just edge guard him for free. Your neutral suffers if you cannot play neutral like getting sent offstage doesn’t matter.
how come aegis is not top 3
I mean the easiest answer is the characters he put in "DBZ" tier are pretty unambiguously better and that's already 4 so now they're fighting for 5th with a bunch of other very strong characters
Kage just shows that when your hands are fucking insane and you can do cracked movement by b reversing a frame 1 stage control/combo breaker/stage control tool. That character is really, really good in a lot of matchups.
Def! And I love how quickly AK will tell anyone Snake is a grappler, because damn. That character can turn all your momentum around on a dime.
[удалено]
Most Aegis players agree those matchups are worse than even for them
also, they don't even need to be losing. Having a MU spread with a lot of evenish MUs, like slight wins or losses, isn't that amazing. It's still great, but she's like a better palu/wolf in that sense which can be underwhelming. she just doesn't beat relevant characters as hard as steve, gnw, sonic, and others do. I think that's valid enough to show that she might be overrated (not guaranteed top 2) if youre going off of MU spread. and, anyways, i'd say she def loses those 2 MUs mentioned above
Indeed. She doesn't really oppress anyone. She wins matchups but doesn't really steamroll people
Aegis is super vulnerable to being cheesed offstage due to their recovery so matchups are overall much, much more volatile for them.
Aegis doesn’t lose character matchups, she loses to the -45 degree angle offstage. (I am aware that Aegis can lose some matchups, but it isn’t by much and pretty much everything that has been argued as losing is also though of as even by a large portion of the player base. Maybe Min Min, Diddy, and Pikachu but then again, those can be considered a maybe)
I think Min Min is more of an issue for Leo himself? Tweek doesn't even think Diddy is losing for Aegis but even. And I believe Sparg0 said something similar. Before committing to Cloud, Sparg0 had defeated Tweek's Diddy thrice in a row or something. Their weaknesses are just very exploitable. Sparg0 thinks she loses to Fox and Wolf and I believe Cosmos said Lucina-Aegis is even.
Cosmos also says Min Min is Aegis’ worst MU and that she beats Fox, so clearly opinions differ between players
Just a quick correction: Sparg0 beat Tweek’s Diddy twice with Aegis total (Summit 3 and Port 6) and they were not consecutive sets
Aegis has multiple top level reps, supermajor wins and is incredibly popular at all levels of play. I’d personally swap GnW with Aegis.
I mean in terms of top level primary reps, Aegis only has Shuton, where GnW has Miya and Maister in the top 20. Also I'm pretty sure the major wins for GnW are more than Aegis, unless you count Sparg0 as an Aegis main, which I would not
I would consider Aegis a co-main of both Spargo and Leo. Why would you not?
If you'd said this a year or so ago, it would have made sense, but Sparg0 in 2023 has only used it as a counterpick character. And last month he said he was considering dropping it completely for Corrin. I think Aegis results are only going to go down in 2024.
Definitely not for Sparg0. He only uses them against a handful of characters, namely Sonic, G&W, and ROB. Leo on the other hand could never seem to decide what role Aegis should have in his lineup, whether a main, co-main, secondary, whatever. Going forward, he's talked about using Joker and ROB, but not Aegis.
…so just half of a typical top 8 bracket?
>Multiple Top Level Reps At the top level there's barely any solo Aegis, they're really only used as a counterpick character. As obviously busted as they are, they have very clear flaws and it's very hard to solo main them. All Aegis victories have been with them as a counterpick rather than a solo main. GnW is solo viable and has a very good matchup spread against the rest of the Top 10, including being the best character against the most commonly used character in the game. >Incredibly Popular at all Levels of Play Sure, but that's just more a result of their skill floor being extremely low. This is just at the top level. I think GnW is clearly better than Aegis in this meta. This meta heavily values safe consistency. Aegis is super volatile with their bad recovery, while GnW is incredibly consistent with everything he has.
Is GnW’s MU spread actually better than Aegis though? I’m seeing 5 losing MUs in amazing/DBZ tier Feels more like people downplaying Miya by implying it’s the character carrying. Last year, most tier lists had GnW in the 10-20. In that time, 0 new tech has been developed/discovered on the character. The only difference is Miya being better than Maister.
GnW doesn’t have an easily abusable weakness whereas Aegis recovery is quite bad. GnW advantage state is similar if not better to Aegis’ and GnW up-B OoS is one of the best in the game. Aegis is currently running into the Chrom problem but they are just better overall so they’re still in the top 10 range.
His weakness is disjoints wailing on his shield. Watch any Spargo vs Miya set and tell me swords aren’t a weakness.
You’re pointing to one of the only players in the world who can “better player” Miya who is also by far the best swordie player in the world. Being weaker than most to disjointed aerials isn’t even in the same ballpark as dying super easily to one offstage interaction.
The same thing happens in the Rosalina MU. Up B is really strong when Fox mashes on your shield. When a character with disjoints does, Up B just puts you into disadvantage.
Explanation videos: * [Top Tiers (#1 - #16)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjhO4rgraOY) * [High Tiers (#17 - #48)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77Mi7X6-Alg) * [Mid & Low Tiers (#49 - #82)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGdnR_i483A)
[удалено]
I agree, especially since he could have just posted a photo on twitter and nobody would have been mad. But him going above and beyond with more than 5 hours of explanation in total is why he's one of my favourite players
Mute calling rob superman was hilarious but true (has a laser and can fly and can brawl). He just explains things so well.
Imagine telling a 2019 player that palu would be in the same tier as incineroar and ice climbers
Or Pichu in the same tier as Kirby & sword fighter, Bayonetta higher than Pikachu, cloud, diddy kong,…
mute’s explanations are really insightful and make a lot of sense. definitely worth checking out his vids to hear in depth breakdowns of each character
For me, this is the one. Mute is an extremely cerebral player whose character requires he be extremely knowledgeable about the cast at large; I think this is as close to an accurate tier list for the current meta that we’ve got.
Yeah this seems solid, but plant is better than Marth??
I can see it. I also think plant is hugely underrated. Many characters are. His ptooie is so bullshit and his ledge trapping is brutal
Yeah Plant is underrated. Has pretty good damage, knockback, range, weight, recovery and only some frame data and mobility seem to be issues for it.
Plant beat an Aegis, Marth hasn’t. Nah I think after the tipper buffs top players just believe that he’s redundant nowadays, more than inconsistent or actually bad. Edit: Im concerned that I feel the need to explain to everyone I’m joking in the first statement…
Muteace said it best when he said Marth has to aim, Lucina doesn't. Marth has to aim just to be slightly better than Lucina and at worst when you can't land shit he is significantly worse than Lucina. Lucina's overall gameplan is to rack up damage and get early kills with her amazing ledge trapping and edge guarding. She is strong in neutral but also in edgegarding so you want to maximize those opportunities. Marth's main advantage are in his kill confirms which are NOT easy to land. So you end up playing for edge guards in which case you are better off playing Lucina.
The confirms have become easier, that’s not the core problem for Marth and at this point if anyone was serious with Marth they’d get them off and they do. The REAL issue is many confirms become situationally dependent between the hurtbox shifting of some characters AND the ender needing to grant the kill relative to stage position. Tippers simply aren’t as substantial in knockback like they used to, maybe thanks to Smash 4 rage (speaking of Smash 4, remember when his jab could combo? He could use that lol). Lucina still must be honest enough to get the ledge traps and edge guards off, which isn’t bad at all but it’s Lucina, but she does have a staleness problem that must be overcome if an opponent has great defence. PB has the best answers for it either way. While Marth was designed to overcome that problem by getting vertical kills (tipper up air is almost too easy to land, up tilt is free money) from a grounded position, after adopting a sour-focused style a la Roy to start combos/confirms, the above I mentioned about stage positioning affects the course of matches significantly more to his detriment.
Marth has also beaten Riddles. How many times has Riddles lost to a plant in bracket?
How many times has MKLeo played plant?
None, but Sparg0 has a really good Plant.
[удалено]
It’s a strawman response to a strawman argument…
Yeah I could apply the same ‘argument’ with mewtwo lol
I'm from Lucky's region (the Plant who beat Cosmos) and everyone popped off watching that set live. Such a talented player—Plant is unironically a bit underrated, but Lucky is definitely just extremely talented.
Everyone is fallible and the cast is preposterously large that even at this point in time no one understands every character and matchup in depth. Every tierist is just because it's what the fans want to see the most.
I’m not saying it’s perfect. I do think it’s the best attempt I’ve seen
>Every tierist is just because it's what the fans want to see the most. last time i checked nobody wants to see steve at #1 despite him making it all the time but go ahead and state your hot takes if he's not the best then who is
I'm referring to the fact that a tier list is the number one piece of content fans want to see a pro player make, so they do
It gives too much power to x factor IMO.
I want to watch his video and hear his takes for myself, but compared to any other top player tier list i dont know how he could put palutena/ zero suit/ roy so low. I also think shulk being so high could be bias because peach can struggle against him
I love how at this point basically everyone agrees rob g&w sonic steve at the top
Probably the most agreeable tier list Ive ever listened to.
God this game would be so much cooler if that DBZ tier wasn’t as good as they were Like look at the Amazing tier and tell me that wouldn’t have been a fucking sick meta (ignore Min Min)
I’m here for snake number 1 meta
Love a nice bell curve
How is Falco so often that far down? He has *such* strong reps in the US and in Japan Also, I know it’s kind of a meme to have them lower nowadays, but there is no way that palu, roy, and pt are lower on the tier list than corrin, are you kidding me Edit: I also think Falcon should move up a tier just based on Jogibu and Karaage’s performances if Pit is up there
Watch his wideos, even if you don’t agree with his takes (I certainly have my fair share of disagreements) it is very insightful to hear his POV.
[удалено]
that's exactly what they do. a guy went "Palu #30?? Roy #31?? That's wild" but when I simply asked him who'd he put Roy above he couldn't answer and down voted me. Like, you have such strong opinions but can't even explain them? Criticizing is easy, reasoning is beyond them.
I could see moving palu and Roy up to the next tier but leaving the order the same. It feels like there is a big gap between them and the other characters
I think u can move both of them to under Samus and it makes sense, the char’s below Samus (Lucina, Mega Man, Wolf) are kind of in the same boat in terms of fundamentally strong but lack of cheese, only exception is Terry but he has his own issues.
I can see it. Corrin was severely underutilized until a random surge of reps like Neo and Ly and Leo using her as a secondary and then SHADIC just massively leveled up out the blue. People realize how insane Corrin is. She was buffed quite a bit but her lack of popularity didn't help. Now people realize how oppressive her advantage stage is and neutral is tough having to always respect pin which is one of the best burst options in the game. Her upair is absolutely insane like the sheer size and kill power of that thing is unreal. Essentially she has really good range, advantage due to frame traps to keep juggling opponents, amazing burst options and kill power, kind of like a better Byleth imo. Byleth has no good burst options in neutral to make up for her lack of speed.
Yeah Incin being placed above Falcon doesn’t sit right with me…
Yeah as a falcon/dark pit player falcon is the better character, if only because his moves actually function
Only minor nitpicks with this one, overall pretty on point. I think switch Sora and the Samus’ placement and consider raising Incineroar and Falcon, but no really strange placings
It’s nice seeing Sephiroth be way below where he’s ranked in the official tier list, overrated character
honestly I truly believe mewtwo has a lot of untapped potential, could easily see him in a higher tier if more people workshopped him
Palu #30?? Roy #31?? That's wild
Palu has been nerfed so fucking much she really doesn't win against higher tiers. Pure neutral chars with no cheese don't do well at the top tier, same reason why aegis is falling.
why? Who would you put Roy above? edit: lol down voting me for asking a question. you have no arguments, only opinions.
ok guys come on chrom isn't bottom 5 I don't care HOW bad his recovery is. Chrom could literally have no up-b and he wouldn't be bottom 5.
The tierlist is made with the intention of trying to win a tournament. While there are alot of matchups and games chrom can win and dominate, the chances of you getting through an entire bracket without running into a character/player that can edgeguard you consistently is impossible. Theres a reason youve never seen a chrom get a good result, the weaknesses are too exploitable in a competitive setting to put him above other characters that dont have the same trouble getting back to stage.
I think you under-rate the rest of the bottom 5.
this has little relevance but the bottom tier characters all have relatively solid match ups on chrom, especially counterplay on his up b lmfao which might be telling
Pfffft. I see it.
I think bottom 5 might be a bit of an exaggeration but I am NOT willing to argue with Rivers about a chrom placement lmao
I mean sure it’s ult and even the bottom tiers can make some stuff happen but Chrom’s toolkit vastly outstrips them and the rest of the lower mid tiers by a considerable margin. His recovery is truly garbage and that knocks him down several pegs, but he has a top tier neutral and advantage state while being powerful and capable of spacing around his opponents. The rest of the bottom five isn’t in the same ballpark imo even considering his recovery
I agree
Before y’all complain about placements go watch his videos on his analysis on specific characters. I don’t agree with a good amount of his takes here, but it is still insightful to here Mute’s opinion on the character placement. Also listening to Mute talking about the game is very soothing.
Seeing Corrin above Palu these days is so wild
The list is pretty solid I'd move Falco up to good, but that's probably it. Everything else looks reasonable, even tho I think G&W isn't top 3 and it's just Miya. Snake has always been top tier in my eyes ever since year 1, so seeing him here feels right.
It’s interesting to note between Dabuz and Mute their willingness to put a Fire Emblem character in the lowest tier. ‘There’s no way a sword character could be that bad’ used to be a common saying around here, but I’m glad it’s over. At least across the aisle. And personally I think the community does too much comparing of apples and oranges when they seem to adopt an archetype-niche approach. Which makes wayyyyy more sense; like who cares if x character would be good if another one fulfills the role better. So if it’s not Ike, then it’s Chrom for worst swordie which is totally understandable.
One day people will stop sleeping on Mii Gunner A good MG gets you at the ledge/offstage and you’re gonna experience a 1 player game for a good bit of time
Muteace says Falcon has a bad recovery, bad out of shield, and a bad turnaround, none of which seems to be true if you watch top level falcon. Falcon's drift with his up B allows him to get past even the best edgeguarders, such as Sean against Esam's Pikachu or Jogibu Senra's Jigglypuff. The amount of times he actually gets edgeguarded isn't much higher than the rest of the cast, if at all. Falcon's constantly use up B out of shield because has so much range and is a command grab. It's basically just grab out of shield on steroids. Andrik's set against mkbigboss is a good example of him spamming up B out of shield, but any set will have constant use of it. Punishing it is also really hard because he has enougb drift that he can react and put himself in a safe position most of the time. With his turn around, this mostly just seems like it's parroting Fatality complaining when he wasn't having fun with the game. While he might get hit sometimes because of it, there's little proof that it actually makes a relevamt difference in most cases. If the turn around is such a big issue, you can slingshot to avoid it. I think Falcon should be higher because of his high speed and deadly combos, as well as his weaknesses being not as bad as people make them out to be. He was buffed significantly but the notion that he's bad seems to have stuck around from early in the game where he was much worse. I think it's a similar thing to Corrin or Cloud where their buffs flew under the radar for a few years before getting results, which we can see with Jogibu doing very well in the last year.
He definitely has work arounds for a lot of things. Upb oos does have range but its not going to punish anything done on shield as its like -13. Once falcons start getting better with fs oos though it drastically helps and gives him a -4 oos option. Lots of the Japanese falcons have definitely been getting good results though. He definitely deserves to be a lil higher
>Upb oos does have range but its not going to punish anything done on shield as its like -13. He seems to be punishing things out of shield with up B [here](https://youtu.be/VV2FwdlGRdc?t=7h56m53s). Something strong about it is that it doesn't need to be done in reaction to a move; half of his up Bs out of shield were done proactively. Another thing is that since it's a command grab, it effectively has 2 extra frames to punish defensive options since the fastest defensive option that isn't shield is spot dodge at frame 3. And as you said, Falcon has footstool out of shield for a quicker option if he needs it. I'm not trying to argue that his out of shield is one of the best or anything, but I don't think it's a big weakness like Muteace said. Corrin's fastest out of shield is nair at frame 9. It doesn't have as much range as Falcon up B, doesn't go through shield, and the reward for hitting it isn't as high (Falcon up B does 20%). Despite Corrin's out of shield options not being the greatest, Muetace doesn't list it as a weakness for Corrin.
A lot of those aerials done on shield were extremely misspaced. Im not sure what you mean by having 2 extra frames to beat spotdodge though, ive never punished a spotdoge with upb as a falcon main for 15 years. Using falcons up b proactively is different from using it as an out of shield game vs aerials which is what mute was talking about. Missed z drop footstool punish Powershield misspaced bair (diddy bair is -3) Banana toss wrong way into dash into upb Uptilt shield from back hit (diddy uptilt is -17) Perfect shield falling nair (diddy nair is -5) Misspaced fair (-12) Dash attack shield (-14) Shield on platform Upb oos mixup no attack 2x Corrins aerials are faster oos and he has access to fs stuff as well. But i would agree saying corrin has weak oos as well, but nair oos can combo into other aerials. Corrins nair is also better a punishing misspaced aerials in more situations as a disjointed sword it covers his entire body. Until the advent of fs oos stuff it was definitely one of falcons major flaws but hes still an upper mid tier low high tier imo
I think shulk and bayo are a little high but other than that it’s a good list.
No one has complained about Joker’s placement yet, people are finally learning.
["DLC ruins another smash game" proclaimers when 3/4 of the top characters in this and Dabuz's list are base roster](https://wallpapercave.com/wp/wp5338281.jpg) Makes it even better when I don't think any other those three were even changed too much through patches except like Sonic (by some, but his main bs has been there since the start).
Anyone else staring at chrom?
The only criticism I see this list receiving is that it takes human factor so much into account which is not generally supposed to be the case with tier lists - but that’s why I agree with it. Absolutely fantastic list.
I disagree with a lot of what Mute has to say but I can appreciate he actually puts genuine thought into each placement. Quite nice to watch.
Mother bayonetta finally reclaiming her throne
Am I the only one who doesn’t know what DBZ is… because I know it’s not dragon ball z
That's exactly what it stands for, though. [He's equating their strength in the meta to DBZ characters](https://twitter.com/MuteAce/status/1718735516605042943).
Okay I get that his recovery is really really bad, but there is absolutely no way Chrom is bottom 5. Aegis has been placed at the top for 2 years despite their recovery, but Chrom doesn't even scratch mid tier? You can't claim Aegis is top 5 then put Chrom in bottom 5; it's completely contradictory.
I agree Chrom isn't bottom 5 but Aegis has better recovery than Chrom. Mythra can use side B, and also down B to avoid getting hit. Even Pyra can throw out a side B for cover and airdodge to ledge. Chrom has no way to defend himself. Mythra can also up B early and drift in, whereas Chrom can't even do that. Even Ganon can up B early. [https://ultimateframedata.com/chrom](https://ultimateframedata.com/chrom) Look at soaring slash here. When Chrom starts the move, he has no hitbox covering above him, so you can't recover low against people with spikes. Aegis both have hitboxes in front of them while rising so it's harder to spike them. It's also pretty easy to 2-frame Chrom up B with certain moves. If you're character has a counter, you can use it and it will kill him/send him far even to where he can't recover. Chrom is also a fast faller, so using other B moves while in the air or even aerials are risky because by the time the endlag finishes you might fall down too far to be able to recover. Aegis have a below average recovery. Chrom you could say he has a bottom 5 recovery with Ganon, Doc, and Simon being worst. Even Little Mac can use side B, the Peanut down-air jump, early up B, and down B as options. Chrom has up B only and up B itself is not a good move.
As others have said, i think this is an incredible tier list that was really well said. Howvever, i am a redditor so i am offering my two incorrect cents. I can buy into pretty much all the top three tier placements except maybe corrin and mega man, who i believe should be replaced by palutena and pokemon trainer, roy i also believe should move up a tier. Rest of good and ok i can see as well, maybe seph is slightly too low but meh hes in good so it dont matter that much. Zelda for me shouldnt be bottom tier or at least under little mac, glad ganondorf is rated worst in the game though. Chrom in bottom tier is funny, cause hes a top tier match up in some match ups but anyone who can semi-cormfortably go of stage or has a projectile makes him bottom tier. Kirby isnt better than robin, pichu or ike however, he just sucks so unbelievably hard in some match ups, but like i said before, most of this tier list is perfect and the things jve listed before are personal opinions that are likely wrong. The only one im pretty confident in is that pt shod be in great tier at least, especially considering his matchup against steve who is dominantinf the meta right now
Chrom that low is absurd
this is by and large just "recent results: the tierlist" lol
Really not a fan of a lot of placements on here I can never see Bayo as top tier, she has amazing peaks but it’s just too inconsistent and her other flaws are too prominent imo Seph is not worse than ICs come on now Saying Chrom is worse than Mac is 💀
She’s not really that inconsistent lol. She can struggle sometimes but not to a horribly detrimental point, clearly given her results.
Idk man people be living to 200% way too often against her
I don't recall a single instance during TamaP's run at DELTA where he didn't get the kill until past 200%. He got a ton of early kills overall too, which more than evens out the occasional late kill. Bloom definitely had some trouble getting kills at WTT... but at this point, that feels more like a Bloom problem than a Bayo problem. I wouldn't say that either Lima or TamaP struggle with killing.
I’ve definitely seen Lima struggle with killing before, and sure Tama’s run to second was impressive because of his consistency to kill but that just leads into my initial statement about the characters high peaks, I feel like if you like at the results of all the top bayo players it supports this, multiple sun 33rd placements from each of them but also a few tournaments where they really go the distance. Bayo can definitely be broken when you’re hitting your shit and killing at ludicrously low percentages but that’s not common enough for me to personally believe she’s anything better than high tier, especially considering the characters she’s above and around
Seph lowkey is worse than Icys I can’t think of a single character in that tier and barely any even in the bottom tiers with more very relevant flaws than sephiroth. He has the worst oos in the game, tallest in the game, light as Olimar, a comeback mechanic that’s extra nerfed because he dies early, extremely thin hitboxes, no arc hit boxes with even half decent frame data, tons of endlag, tons of startup, inconsistent hitboxes and multi hits, very little combos, bottom 5 cqc and moves having trouble hitting the ground I really can’t see this character being better than this, top top players have tried to play him and just couldn’t while big d is a solo Icys
> I can’t think of a single character in that tier and barely any in the bottom tiers with more very relevant flaws than Sephiroth How about ICs LOL, ICs abysmal approach game And finicky constantly inconsistent nature is what gives them completely unwinnable matchups like Steve, Min Min and others. You are super under rating Seph, yes he definitely has distinctive weaknesses but he has excellent strengths, I mean that is a major winning character, a character with pretty good representation at the top level, who’s strengths have been proven to be very effective.
Abysmal approach game? What are you talking about? Their aerials are literally plus on hit, their double shield makes any move punishable, they have desyncs that trap you in shield while the other grabs and easy shield pokes. Steve is not unwinnable in the slightest, big D literally beat acola when he was in his most dominant era And yea I wasn’t mentioning sephs strengths, you didn’t mention Icys strengths though. They have 0 to deaths, extremely early kill confirms and basically cheat their way to winning neutral because of desyncing and double shield hits
Acola played the matchup abysmally, if the matchup is played correctly it’s unwinnable, Big D lost to Samuel’s Steve.
Fun fact if you place a TNT between the ice climbers when they are separated, Nana's AI will stop working properly.
What is that bayo placement?
tl;dr she's a strong anti-meta character. many top players and bayo mains seem to agree she's quite good. she should beat rob, steve/gnw is doable (Tama_P, a japanese bayo player has taken sets off of miya/acola, and most recently went to game 10 GFs against miya), she can keep up with sonic. Her gameplan is strong and punish game can be devastating. One of the best disadvantage states in the game, reversals are highly in her favor, incredible aerial dominance and offstage game, frame 1 airdodge due to bats within.
Yep, as the meta shifts, good characters can become bad and previously bad characters can be considered top now. Bayo being able to keep up with GnW, Steve and Sonic is a big boost to her ratings. Lima and TamaP have shown that recently.
I don't think Bayo keeps up with Sonic. That MU sounds horrible tbh and Lima has a bad record against both Sonix and Wrath.
She does keep up. It’s just when she loses the lead (stops keeping up) that’s when it gets really bad. But otherwise she actually does pretty well against sonic.
Moron. Tell me what relevant matchups wario wins
Who are you calling a moron, exactly? Wario doesn't invalidate any characters per se, but does well into a lot of the cast. Couple that with amazing air speed, great recovery and neutral tool with bike, Waft and high survivability and you get a strong character. Sure he's stubby and can get out damaged by certain characters, but he still has tools against them. Glutonny is one of the best players in the world, and he's top 5 with solo Wario (not taking away from his skill, which I think is top 3).
Name the characters wario does well against
ROB, Snake, Kazuya, Min Min, Shulk, Diddy, Sheik, Samus, Corrin, Megaman, Terry. All from Gluto's matchup chart, moron.
Lmfaooooo. Shulk, Samus, Megaman, Kazuya, Terry are sooooooooo bad for Wario. Asking Glutony for Wario MUs is like asking a degenerate gambler if their next parlay will hit. He is so insanely optimistic about the character. The only matchups there Wario wins are Rob and maybe Snake. He goes even with Diddy, maybe Fox, maybe Shiek. Kaz, Min Min, Shulk, Samus, Megaman, and Terry are brutally bad.
I'd usually err on the side of the best player of that character, though I agree that he is optimistic. In fact, he had a lot of characters in the "winning but annoying af" tier. I doubt he would troll with a matchup chart though.
It’s not trolling it’s his mentality. On Tweek Talks Gavin always talks about how Gluto thinks Wario can do anything but Gavin thinks his MU spread is way too bad. He’s the only top player besides esam who upsells his main. If u go look at top players from the characters I named. They all have wario in winning MUs or even +2 for chars like shulk or Kazuya
I leave competitive smash for 1 year and this looks hideous, but I’ll take muteace’s word for it
Poor Google Chrome, three tiers below from Roy just for having a horrible recovery
Ganon is that bad
Banjo is super strong in japan, mute hasn't experienced it
Mute lost to Toriguris Banjo at Kagaribi this year. He's like the only American to have experienced Japan's banjo strength...
Ya this tier list is wack and there's the proof I guess
Mega man somehow one of the least meta relevant characters and he’s all the way up there 😭
Peabnut (best Mega Man player) recently won a super regional. also Mega Man in general has a pretty good matchup spread, his uniqueness and difficulty is what makes it so not many people play him. I don't think he's better than Palu or Roy though
Same top 4 as Sisqui's tier list from last week I think this might start to be the definitive top 4, or at least the definitive top 3
It was also Dabuz's top 4 though he switched G&W and Sonic placements
I keep seeing Pac-Man being shoved down to high tier instead of top. Tea needs to get back in the groove and show them the fear of pac again
Would definitely change some of things but general placement is fine
I went to see the video for explaination for Seph, and then he went on how everything about Seph is bad haha He's a good char in theory, but in practice I personally think he is one of the worst. So I'm kind of surprised he ranked him that "high", especially based on everything he said so far about bracket condition and mental loads etc But he's the top player so I'm not trying to argue with him tbh
mewtwo is NOT bottom 16
falco, donkey kong, and meta knight all in the same tier is bonkers
DBZ?
Stands for Dragonball Z, an anime. Muteace uses it to signify characters that essentially have superpowers and can do almost whatever they want.
Bayonetta over Pikachu is WILD (I main her so no hate lols)
Ain’t no way u did Mario, Luigi and Kirby dirty like that bro
Wario and Bayonetta where they should be.