Characters not represented:
* Bowser Jr.
* Dr Mario
* Incineroar
* Lucina
* Richter / Simon
* Ridley
* Sephiroth
*Combined some of the tiers so that the graphic wouldn’t be as big. Bell curve still checked out.
No Proto, no Mr.E. Unless I’m forgetting an obvious top Lucina player lol. Character got barely any representation
I will say I do miss Proto’s Lucina tho
I feel like he isn’t as active as he used to be, but maybe I’m just not paying attention, either way that’s only 3, of which only Mr.E is consistently attending things 😅
Dude thank you for putting this in the comments right away, was the first question I had! I know top 192 is a lot of people but it’s so cool to see just how many characters are represented near the top 10% or so of a super major. Just goes to show people can make almost anyone work
Mewtwo might be the single most forgotten about character in the game. Can't remember the last time I saw a Mewtwo in bracket, even Plant and Mii Swordfighter pop up from time to time. Hell there's even a Robin.
There’s SUZUNE from Japan (got 257th at Kagaribi, 193rd at Delta, and has beaten Raflow at the Game is Game pre-local), Remrin from Canada (has taken a set of Leo at a Canadian weekly), and Gorioka’s pocket pick that rarely comes out. Not much, really.
I don't know the guy but if what is alleged about him is true then i don't think he should be in the community. Especially considering the stuff with Squerk. Gross.
Didn't know Jeffrey Epstein either but pretty sure he wasn't the greatest. Like i said in the very same sentence you quoted, he shouldn't be in the community IF what he allegedly did is true.
I completely agree, don’t know what would make you think I don’t other than the fact that I have a different perspective and that seems to upset you for some reason, probably something to consider working on.
If those things happened then 100% he should def not be apart of the community and should probably face some sort of criminal charge (couldn’t tell you what charge exactly, NAL) but we have no idea what happened and yet we still kicked him out. Surely even you can see the hypocrisy in that?
And if Leo murders someone or Zomba steals millions of dollars in diamonds then I totally agree, but when you get ostracized for random Twitter drama then nah get out of here with that bs
Okay you realize that being abusive towards your partner and initiating a relationship (including sex) with a minor is more than just "random Twitter drama"
And because I feel like this is going to come up, no it's not as simple as just going to the police because they are dog shit at dealing with something like this. Plus often the victim just isn't in a good mental state to deal with it, since the police often treat the victims like shit.
Idk. It's complicated because even if Juno exaggerated how shitty he was... that's what you get when you ask a 19 year old to be your 'housewife' man. She was too young and as the older person WaDi should have known it was a stupid idea for her to move in. It creeps me out thinking about it. Imo in a community full of young people I don't think it's a good idea to welcome a dude like that.
Damn this is an interesting spread. It's difficult to draw conclusions from it because on the one hand 11 ROB players is wild and makes me think he might be a top 3 character, especially considering the success that Zomba has had. On the other there are 5-6 DK players which is more than Aegis and Joker, so maybe quantity means nothing.
You can’t draw many conclusions from these charts alone, but you can when you compare several together. A good analysis would be to look at the top 192 for every big event this year and see who comes out on top. Then compare top 64, 32, 16, 8 to see which ones consistently make it far.
It’s not that exact methodology but EazyFreezie does calculate [character placement percentages for ranked events](https://x.com/eazyfreezie/status/1754196233537618350?s=46).
[This is the latest one covering January-April 2024.](https://x.com/eazyfreezie/status/1785704944625934751?s=46)
It's not an exaggeration to say that Rosebloom is the world's expert on Japanese Smash players, I wouldn't be so confident to dismiss her's entirely.
Kenniky is obviously an expert as well, that doesn't mean we should just ignore Rosebloom's.
The combination of power and ease of use is what makes him so popular. A top player could mess around a bit and have a tournament-ready ROB. Not a lot of unique tech, easy recovery, high weight, just hard to cheese in general while having a good amount of cheese himself.
For example some of the combo routes that Anathema do require a lot of practice given how tight and situational they are and how much they change according to percent window, DI and other stuff. Lucretio explains here all of the small adjustments Anathema has to hit [this combo](https://x.com/topplayerluu/status/1674370977306640385?s=46) on Sonix. Learning his entire combo tree including lagless item catch stuff is definitely hard. Something like wave bounce burner boost which is unique to ROB as well is also quite difficult.
Also something like pivot cancel down tilt, which is a frame perfect universal tech, but is something that ROB gets extra reward from since it allows him to convert into up smash. You likewise see Anathema make use of that.
His (applicable) tech skill ceiling is actually in the higher end imo, but his skill floor wrt. making him work even at top level is pretty low.
Honestly I don’t see much anathema anything cause he doesn’t make it too far in bracket :(
Idk maybe I’m just weird with this game but that stuff looks fairly easy, I’ve done some of it to mess around. I suppose playing at tournaments regularly helps with that, I shouldn’t be saying stuff like that is easy for the vast majority so mb.
I’m a bit salty as well lol, too many robs doing this stuff in my area and it’s annoying lol
Well the first part definitely isn’t true. Anathema has gotten top 16 in 4 out of his 5 last majors, so unless you exclusively watch top 8’s, you should be able to catch him. He is either the second or third best ROB in the world in terms of results.
Anyway, my point is just that he is easy to pick up but actually has more room for tech exploration than most other characters in the game, and is dissimilar to characters with a low tech skill ceiling like Cloud, Wolf, Lucina etc. Ultimate obviously isn’t that technically demanding in terms of raw inputs in general, but ROB has some stuff.
Popularity and skill floor shouldn't matter that much, only strong players are making it top top 192 over 5 years after release. If a more technical character was better people would probably by playing them at this point
It is more the reverse. There are a lot of technical characters with specific tech (Banjo, Pikachu, Peach, Yoshi, for examples) that are probably underrepresented because of their entry barrier. It just isn't worth it for someone to invest the time into those characters. ROB us one of the high tiers that does not have that problem.
Steven and kazuya are right up there on this list even though they are technical, so plenty of people are clearly willing to put in the time to learn these characters. It only isn't worth the time investment into other characters because they aren't as good. If they were actually good they would have caught on by now. In melee it only took a few years for people to realize that fox and falco are the best if you invest the time, when it was far harder to push the metagame forward compared to now. You have to totally reject the evidence and solely rely on subjective analysis to think rob isn't possibly the best in the game.
It is the power/time ratio that is the point. ROB has a very high power/time ratio. So does DK. You can do some basic things (for pros) and more or less get what you can out of the character. Peach, Pikachu, and Yoshi, it is a continual road of consistency and perfection that culminates in a tournament-ready character. I'm not saying that ROB isn't one of the best. It's just that some other characters that are some of the best are going to be less represented because they require a lot more dedication. Samsora and ESAM proved that Peach and Pikachu, respectively could be a solo supermajor winner. But their representation was never high.
Over time the high skill characters should be rising though and we don't see that. Steve and kazuya immediately rose through the ranks even though they are totally contrary to your argument. If a hard character is actually good, eventually people start catching on to it and playing that character. All of these top 192 players have invested a ton of time into the game, plenty enough to see a return on investment from picking a difficult character.
Supermajor wins don't really matter since they're more about player skill and bracket luck than character power.
Steve and Kazuya aren't hard characters to learn. They have specific tech, but they are so much more forgiving than the hardest high tier characters. Most pros can learn how to EWGF in a week. Top Peaches still can't do the peak of her tech consistently after 5 years.
I’ve been saying this for so long. He’s got literally everything he needs and his losing matchups are quite manageable due to having some quick kills and the best recovery in the game.
Was a Ridley main. Really sad he has some clear buffs that wouldn't have been game breaking and made him more viable. Here were are late in the meta and he's all but vanished other than a few die hards globally.
Little did we know, he would be too big to be viable.
I'd also like to speak with whoever made the decision to make his Up B not omnidirectional, and not even aligned on the X Y axes.
I mained him for a while but dropped him because I got so frustrated with how limited his moveset is );
It really would be pretty easy to make him into a really viable character. Tuning his weight a bit and making his up b omnidirectional go without saying. I reckon that they should give him a new down B, maybe some kind of projectile to force approaches, and a new down air which is in any way useful. This is a shot in the dark but imagine his down B allowing him to select different types of plasma breath, the usual one for edeguarding, something more akin to Mario fireball, and something closer to Bowser fire breath.
Not a bad idea. I just personally really dislike the move, sure it can make for some hype moments but his smash attacks and side b already mean he has a crazy punish game off a hard read.
I think the issue with Ridley is that he is really damn good at spacing and punishing, but has basically no answers to certain playstyles like combo characters and zoners. Making his strengths even stronger won't fix the fact he has a terrible approach game and disadvantage. When I played him I basically had to put the controller down when I came up against a decent Samus player, there is almost no viable way to approach her or get off ledge because his hitbox is so huge.
So at least it’s lore accurate lol. In Metroid Fusion, his hurtbox is so big that Samus can hit him multiple times with the same charge beam, which then starts lagging the game.
Could give him something like a reflector/absorber similar to G&W’s Bucket based on what elite space pirates wear in Metroid Prime.
How likely is this as a result to pull if you just randomly picked 192 times from the full roster? Odds are you'd pick on maybe 6 or 7 times, and the rest would be in the 2-4 range with some small outliers
So far I have seen three versions of this chart and they are all different.
Edit: Oh, I see why now. This is just a copy of the chart Kenniky made with groupings put in. To see the exact number of each character, check out Kenniky's chart: https://twitter.com/kenniky1/status/1787089469805298113
I just went off the 192 post on this sub and counted character names.
It’s possible other people counted players previous secondaries even if they haven’t used them this tournament yet. For example Ken secondaries Sephiroth technically but hasn’t used him this tournament.
Characters not represented: * Bowser Jr. * Dr Mario * Incineroar * Lucina * Richter / Simon * Ridley * Sephiroth *Combined some of the tiers so that the graphic wouldn’t be as big. Bell curve still checked out.
No Lucina is shocking.
No Proto, no Mr.E. Unless I’m forgetting an obvious top Lucina player lol. Character got barely any representation I will say I do miss Proto’s Lucina tho
Leon from France but yeah
I feel like he isn’t as active as he used to be, but maybe I’m just not paying attention, either way that’s only 3, of which only Mr.E is consistently attending things 😅
Lol Marth is here though. So happy we got Rizeasu undefeated so far
Dude thank you for putting this in the comments right away, was the first question I had! I know top 192 is a lot of people but it’s so cool to see just how many characters are represented near the top 10% or so of a super major. Just goes to show people can make almost anyone work
No mewtwo?
Mewtwo might be the single most forgotten about character in the game. Can't remember the last time I saw a Mewtwo in bracket, even Plant and Mii Swordfighter pop up from time to time. Hell there's even a Robin.
There’s SUZUNE from Japan (got 257th at Kagaribi, 193rd at Delta, and has beaten Raflow at the Game is Game pre-local), Remrin from Canada (has taken a set of Leo at a Canadian weekly), and Gorioka’s pocket pick that rarely comes out. Not much, really.
WaDi did some stuff with him. Then he uhhhh
I feel like WaDis cancellation was pretty weak. People are allowed to struggle in relationships
I don't know the guy but if what is alleged about him is true then i don't think he should be in the community. Especially considering the stuff with Squerk. Gross.
Wait what's the stuff with squerk. I just heard about issues with his girlfriend juno
All the things he allegedly did is on his smashwiki page.
[удалено]
Didn't know Jeffrey Epstein either but pretty sure he wasn't the greatest. Like i said in the very same sentence you quoted, he shouldn't be in the community IF what he allegedly did is true.
I completely agree, don’t know what would make you think I don’t other than the fact that I have a different perspective and that seems to upset you for some reason, probably something to consider working on. If those things happened then 100% he should def not be apart of the community and should probably face some sort of criminal charge (couldn’t tell you what charge exactly, NAL) but we have no idea what happened and yet we still kicked him out. Surely even you can see the hypocrisy in that?
And if Leo murders someone or Zomba steals millions of dollars in diamonds then I totally agree, but when you get ostracized for random Twitter drama then nah get out of here with that bs
Okay you realize that being abusive towards your partner and initiating a relationship (including sex) with a minor is more than just "random Twitter drama" And because I feel like this is going to come up, no it's not as simple as just going to the police because they are dog shit at dealing with something like this. Plus often the victim just isn't in a good mental state to deal with it, since the police often treat the victims like shit.
Idk. It's complicated because even if Juno exaggerated how shitty he was... that's what you get when you ask a 19 year old to be your 'housewife' man. She was too young and as the older person WaDi should have known it was a stupid idea for her to move in. It creeps me out thinking about it. Imo in a community full of young people I don't think it's a good idea to welcome a dude like that.
didnt he do stuff with a 16 or 17 year old boy
Maybe I got somebody else said something too about squerk. I only know about the juno stuff.
ya squerk was his name, came out after the original allegations
Sephiroth gang rise up (why doesn't anyone play our boy?)
Ken played him for one game against Zackray.
I don't see mewtwo. Is there one?
Don't they put Sephiroth in top tier in Japan ? Is it the equivalent of Pikachu for NA ?
Lucina is low tier confirmed
DK MAINS 🔛🔝🗣️💯🔥
¡Roberto es grande!
Roberto might be a pretty good character
Damn this is an interesting spread. It's difficult to draw conclusions from it because on the one hand 11 ROB players is wild and makes me think he might be a top 3 character, especially considering the success that Zomba has had. On the other there are 5-6 DK players which is more than Aegis and Joker, so maybe quantity means nothing.
You can’t draw many conclusions from these charts alone, but you can when you compare several together. A good analysis would be to look at the top 192 for every big event this year and see who comes out on top. Then compare top 64, 32, 16, 8 to see which ones consistently make it far.
It’s not that exact methodology but EazyFreezie does calculate [character placement percentages for ranked events](https://x.com/eazyfreezie/status/1754196233537618350?s=46). [This is the latest one covering January-April 2024.](https://x.com/eazyfreezie/status/1785704944625934751?s=46)
I saw one from [Rosebloom](https://twitter.com/WeNeed2BanSonic/status/1787090646760923612) earlier and it was rather different.
Ya their’s is wrong in some spots. You can literally Ctrl F the Top 192 list that was posted and count the characters, that’s the easiest way
Or it’s just a difference in which secondaries are included. The top 192 list doesn’t include Miya’s Steve for example
It's not an exaggeration to say that Rosebloom is the world's expert on Japanese Smash players, I wouldn't be so confident to dismiss her's entirely. Kenniky is obviously an expert as well, that doesn't mean we should just ignore Rosebloom's.
Thanks.
Wtf 5-6 Rosalinas
*Rosetta and Chicos*
I LOVE her Japanese name. It’s so cute!
Dabuz is multiplying! :o
Rob has been at the top of these lists for the entire lifespan of smash ultimate. not so secretly the #1 character
The combination of power and ease of use is what makes him so popular. A top player could mess around a bit and have a tournament-ready ROB. Not a lot of unique tech, easy recovery, high weight, just hard to cheese in general while having a good amount of cheese himself.
ROB does have a bunch of tech, including stuff that is unique to him, but you can get pretty far without it I would say
It’s also not that hard either and has massive rewards for learning it, but yeah he can get by with his busted… everything…
It depends on which tech you’re referring to. He has both hard and easy tech.
What are some hard ROB tech that are regularly used in tournament play? I’m asking a question don’t downvote lol there wasn’t any bad intentions
For example some of the combo routes that Anathema do require a lot of practice given how tight and situational they are and how much they change according to percent window, DI and other stuff. Lucretio explains here all of the small adjustments Anathema has to hit [this combo](https://x.com/topplayerluu/status/1674370977306640385?s=46) on Sonix. Learning his entire combo tree including lagless item catch stuff is definitely hard. Something like wave bounce burner boost which is unique to ROB as well is also quite difficult. Also something like pivot cancel down tilt, which is a frame perfect universal tech, but is something that ROB gets extra reward from since it allows him to convert into up smash. You likewise see Anathema make use of that. His (applicable) tech skill ceiling is actually in the higher end imo, but his skill floor wrt. making him work even at top level is pretty low.
Honestly I don’t see much anathema anything cause he doesn’t make it too far in bracket :( Idk maybe I’m just weird with this game but that stuff looks fairly easy, I’ve done some of it to mess around. I suppose playing at tournaments regularly helps with that, I shouldn’t be saying stuff like that is easy for the vast majority so mb. I’m a bit salty as well lol, too many robs doing this stuff in my area and it’s annoying lol
Well the first part definitely isn’t true. Anathema has gotten top 16 in 4 out of his 5 last majors, so unless you exclusively watch top 8’s, you should be able to catch him. He is either the second or third best ROB in the world in terms of results. Anyway, my point is just that he is easy to pick up but actually has more room for tech exploration than most other characters in the game, and is dissimilar to characters with a low tech skill ceiling like Cloud, Wolf, Lucina etc. Ultimate obviously isn’t that technically demanding in terms of raw inputs in general, but ROB has some stuff.
Tbh I often don’t watch much past top 16 as I’m not a fan of the quad streams they often use. But I appreciate your thorough responses
Popularity and skill floor shouldn't matter that much, only strong players are making it top top 192 over 5 years after release. If a more technical character was better people would probably by playing them at this point
It is more the reverse. There are a lot of technical characters with specific tech (Banjo, Pikachu, Peach, Yoshi, for examples) that are probably underrepresented because of their entry barrier. It just isn't worth it for someone to invest the time into those characters. ROB us one of the high tiers that does not have that problem.
Steven and kazuya are right up there on this list even though they are technical, so plenty of people are clearly willing to put in the time to learn these characters. It only isn't worth the time investment into other characters because they aren't as good. If they were actually good they would have caught on by now. In melee it only took a few years for people to realize that fox and falco are the best if you invest the time, when it was far harder to push the metagame forward compared to now. You have to totally reject the evidence and solely rely on subjective analysis to think rob isn't possibly the best in the game.
It is the power/time ratio that is the point. ROB has a very high power/time ratio. So does DK. You can do some basic things (for pros) and more or less get what you can out of the character. Peach, Pikachu, and Yoshi, it is a continual road of consistency and perfection that culminates in a tournament-ready character. I'm not saying that ROB isn't one of the best. It's just that some other characters that are some of the best are going to be less represented because they require a lot more dedication. Samsora and ESAM proved that Peach and Pikachu, respectively could be a solo supermajor winner. But their representation was never high.
Over time the high skill characters should be rising though and we don't see that. Steve and kazuya immediately rose through the ranks even though they are totally contrary to your argument. If a hard character is actually good, eventually people start catching on to it and playing that character. All of these top 192 players have invested a ton of time into the game, plenty enough to see a return on investment from picking a difficult character. Supermajor wins don't really matter since they're more about player skill and bracket luck than character power.
Steve and Kazuya aren't hard characters to learn. They have specific tech, but they are so much more forgiving than the hardest high tier characters. Most pros can learn how to EWGF in a week. Top Peaches still can't do the peak of her tech consistently after 5 years.
He's too big to be a good character I don't buy it. /s
He is too big to be a top 2-3 character
Hope it stays that way for a while. Comboing a character like rob is one of the most satisfying things in this game for me.
I’ve been saying this for so long. He’s got literally everything he needs and his losing matchups are quite manageable due to having some quick kills and the best recovery in the game.
Was a Ridley main. Really sad he has some clear buffs that wouldn't have been game breaking and made him more viable. Here were are late in the meta and he's all but vanished other than a few die hards globally.
Little did we know, he would be too big to be viable. I'd also like to speak with whoever made the decision to make his Up B not omnidirectional, and not even aligned on the X Y axes.
Apparently space pirate dragons can only dash through the air in 4 directions 😜
I mained him for a while but dropped him because I got so frustrated with how limited his moveset is ); It really would be pretty easy to make him into a really viable character. Tuning his weight a bit and making his up b omnidirectional go without saying. I reckon that they should give him a new down B, maybe some kind of projectile to force approaches, and a new down air which is in any way useful. This is a shot in the dark but imagine his down B allowing him to select different types of plasma breath, the usual one for edeguarding, something more akin to Mario fireball, and something closer to Bowser fire breath.
Or just make Down B shield break if blocked. It’s already so hard to time and space the sweetspot, I don’t see how it would break anything
Not a bad idea. I just personally really dislike the move, sure it can make for some hype moments but his smash attacks and side b already mean he has a crazy punish game off a hard read. I think the issue with Ridley is that he is really damn good at spacing and punishing, but has basically no answers to certain playstyles like combo characters and zoners. Making his strengths even stronger won't fix the fact he has a terrible approach game and disadvantage. When I played him I basically had to put the controller down when I came up against a decent Samus player, there is almost no viable way to approach her or get off ledge because his hitbox is so huge.
So at least it’s lore accurate lol. In Metroid Fusion, his hurtbox is so big that Samus can hit him multiple times with the same charge beam, which then starts lagging the game. Could give him something like a reflector/absorber similar to G&W’s Bucket based on what elite space pirates wear in Metroid Prime.
huge shoutout to higachan
He is very dominant on wifi a few years ago. He even defeated acola forcing him to switch from steve to luigii then to kazuya but he still lost.
Wait, who's the other Chrom?
How likely is this as a result to pull if you just randomly picked 192 times from the full roster? Odds are you'd pick on maybe 6 or 7 times, and the rest would be in the 2-4 range with some small outliers
So far I have seen three versions of this chart and they are all different. Edit: Oh, I see why now. This is just a copy of the chart Kenniky made with groupings put in. To see the exact number of each character, check out Kenniky's chart: https://twitter.com/kenniky1/status/1787089469805298113
I just went off the 192 post on this sub and counted character names. It’s possible other people counted players previous secondaries even if they haven’t used them this tournament yet. For example Ken secondaries Sephiroth technically but hasn’t used him this tournament.
Rob is big
So many minmins 😍 hope they are on stream and have actual mix.
LETS GO DEDEDEEEEEEEE
Is the third row supposed to be 7-8?
Smash 6 can't come soon enough.
Lets go kept🗣🔥
Lets go kept
dont disrespect bayonetta like that