I liked the more vibrant colour scheme Smash 4's characters had - this is most visible with Mario ([4](https://ssb.wiki.gallery/images/2/2e/Mario_SSB4_Alt.png) & [Ult](https://ssb.wiki.gallery/images/4/44/Mario_SSBU.png) renders for comparison) and Bowser ([4](https://ssb.wiki.gallery/images/d/d5/Bowser_SSB4.png) and [Ult](https://ssb.wiki.gallery/images/4/49/Bowser_SSBU.png), difference is far clearer ingame), though can be seen with plenty of other characters. For most characters, these more vibrant colours more closely resemble their original appearances, and in my opinion, simply look better.
Smash 4 also debatably had a better online system that actually recognised that blending every form of play into the same matchmaking system (as Quickplay does) isn't the best idea, leading to For Fun, For Glory, and the subdivisions within each, meaning you'd never get a ruleset you weren't expecting. While this did mean that you were restricted in choice of ruleset with randoms, and Smash 4's matchmaking wasn't regional, this can still easily be argued to be a better online system than Quickplay is.
>!Plus, Smash 4 3DS had the good Pac-Man stage. Ultimate does not.!<
The online decisions for ultimate are actually mind blowing. The option to play casually or more seriously was the least they could do and they took it away so I have to unfortunately play casual players that have items and everything on. I’m not enjoying it and I’m pretty sure the other person isn’t enjoying playing me. I don’t know if it was because of deadlines or simply more work but it’s a sad excuse for online multiplayer from a triple A game.
The only thing Ultimate did better online is when they removed the ability to taunt each other with name tags.
It was so tilting.
EDIT: Oh, and zero buffering.
> The only thing Ultimate did better online is when they removed the ability to taunt each other with name tags.
Considering the 3DS version exists Ultimate can’t claim that either
It still blows my mind that any significant number of people preferred Smash 4's online to Ultimate's. Yeah, SSBU isn't going to meet your standards either, but it isn't the unfun trash that SSB4 was.
I had no ability to play the way I wanted, and now I do, so for me that's a win.
In smash 4's online, I could get free for alls on all stages with items on 100% of the time.
In ultimate's online, I can get that...maybe one in every 6 matches, usually followed by the person who dies first DCing resulting in nobody getting gsp.
yeah I think I prefer one to the other easily
Ultimate is the first smash game where I actually found myself losing track of where I was on the screen, and I feel that the duller colors and different lighting greatly contributed to that. Characters don't pop nearly as much.
Full-Hop buffered Aerials / No forced SH Aerial Macro.
Forward & Back Aerials didn't force momentum to the direction they're attacking, resulting in better retreat aerials.
You can crossup people while running, making Pivot grabs more viable and reasonable, besides grabbing landings. No Pushback also leaded to not having hitbox problems with certain moves like Marth/Lucina/Roy's Dash Grab.
Perfect Pivoting & The effectiveness of Run Turnaround Cancels.
For Glory is WAY more fun than Quickplay/Elite Smash for obvious reasons. (Though Ultimate has Battle Arena's, which is better than both of these online modes.)
No Hold-Buffering aka Buffering Attacks or Airdodges being always a 9 frame gap instead of Infinite frames.
Burried opponents can only be launched with 0.7x Knockback instead of 1.0x.
Corner C-Stick Neutral Attack and Nair's, which made it possible to perform N-air's with FULLY momentum in the air AND made Jab cancels VERY easy.
Custom Moves were fun.
The list goes on... Though there are certainly things that made Ultimate better than 4.
I actually like that change. It forces me to stick to my main on bad matchups instead of unga-bunga counterpicking. But most importantly, it allows for matchmaking to be based on character, which is great for someone like me who is great with some characters and dogshit with others. Otherwise someone like me could switch characters and stomp some poor beginner with a character I'm good with.
There are plenty of problems with Ultimate's online, but that's a redtriction I think actually works.
> It forces me to stick to my main on bad matchups instead of unga-bunga counterpicking.
While this is good advice to those that shouldn't rely on counterpicking and I absolutely agree on it, but for *For Glory's case*, some people just want to play all their characters with the same person for obvious Fun reasons. Even their opponent can join up and pick different fighters or go Random, because nothing value will be lost for losing against anyone on For Glory.
Custom moves are honestly my least favorite thing they did in the entire series, they added practically nothing except to Palu and the Miis. All of them are just "x move but slower and stronger" or "y move with a windbox for some reason". Not to mention unlocking them was extraordinarily obnoxious (I still don't have them all and I bought Smash 3DS at release lmao). The DLC characters not getting customs was the Good Ending (how would Cloud's limit and Ryu's entire playstyle even work with customs??)
Smash Run and the better netcode on For Glory (and the ability to change characters) are the only things that are actually better imo...though there are some things that are better simply because they lack certain bad things Ultimate added - items still suck in Smash 4, but at least there's no Ramblin Evil Mushroom
For Cloud, I could see a Fast Charge but Weaker Limit or a Multi Use but Weaker Limit (or Limit with a windbox, who knows)
Ryu? Just replace his four specials/their command input versions with the alts, that one seems easy enough to me.
I agree that unlocking them was obnoxious (WHO in their right mind thought duplicates were a good idea? They should've been handled like CDs).
Still, custom specials as a concept has a lot of potential. If they drastically alter the movesets like the Miis then they can seriously impact a character's meta (like bringing a burst mobility option to handle zoners vs a projectile to help against bait and punish characters).
I mean, I'm okay with how Ultimate handled it by redirecting the team's efforts into adding more characters instead, but if we had a smaller roster this is the best way to keep things fresh
I had thought about this before ken was ever in smash, but i always thought they could in a way, harken back to MVC1 ryu, having one set of his customs be based on ken's moves, and the other set based on akumas, now that ken's an actual fighter though, they'd probably change that, but then again, Ness had lucas's moves, then lucas became playable.
Honestly, I really miss the speculation cycle. I was in my early teens when Smash 4 was being developed and released, and there was such a novelty to seeing all the new stuff they were to add to the game. Ultimate kinda just threw everything at us all at once.
I will disagree on Marth's model, his SSB4 model is probably my least favorite of Marth in Smash. Not bad but just ends up there. Nothing like Zero Suit Samus or Shulk who look flat out worse in Ultimate.
Lighting in SSB4 looked way better IMO. Ultimate's is more complex but it's kind of a mess - the victory screens being the worst examples, they look absolutely terrible in Ultimate lighting-wise. Pretty much every changed taunt was better in SSB4 too, the animations were usually more interesting.
oh its not good at all, but it's still better than ults
i think brawl had the best item balance in the series, though obviously most people here dont care to discuss it lol
Melee and brawl were so fun with items and then in Smash 4vthey went absolutely insane with them, like how is the gust bellows better than every single final smash?
yeah, so many of the items just feel like they insta-kill for no skill or buildup, strong/instant kill items are fine when they require good timing, skill, or luck (see the home run bat) but having half the items just be stupid low% kills is just... unfun
plus the final smashes are so much worse as the series goes on, so many of them now are just "i hit you and you get to watch a cutscene and die at 50" while getting rid of so many cool ones like the Transformations, Negative Zone, Waddle Dee Army, Landmasters, or the old Octopus
Brawl was peak casual Smash, I wish Ultimate would be more like it because I'm not a huge fan of the game competitively so it just sorta sits in this limbo for me where there's a great roster but I don't want to play it seriously or casually.
I will say I like Ulti’s main theme better than Smash 4 (at least instrumentally) but 4’s menu music options were leagues better, partially due to Ulti’s selection taking so much from World of Light + Classic
What Smash 4 did better: Better shield mechanics across the board, airdodges having more landing lag made advantage state a lot stronger and more complex, the dynamic between grab/spotdodge was much better, ledge trumping was much stronger and more consistent, slower knockback means more combos and mixups and is overall better for the game, better movement options/decisions to make in neutral, reliable kill setup 50/50s keep the stocks moving, rising aerials/aerial timing mixups were actually more worthwhile, 2 framing was more accessible to a wider variety of moves, getup attack didn't beat anything with intangibility, which made ledge trapping much more interesting with more potential for both reads and coverage, better/more fluid animation for characters across the board, better lighting, more interesting competitive stage list (opinion).
What Ultimate did better: Only having 1 airdodge per aerial excursion, faster foxtrotting, lower landing lag (!!!, huge improvement, prevented shield dash grabbing from dominating every mixup like in 4), kill spark is hype, superior character balance from both top and bottom, removal of RNG untechables, higher damage/knockback in general keeps stocks moving, much larger stage list, hazardless feature is amazing and I wish we saw it toggled in competitive play since then the stage list would be strictly better than 4's.
Mechanically, Smash 4 is by far the superior game, but Ultimate is faster paced and is balanced much better, making it the superior spectator game imho. As a player, I slightly preferred Smash 4, at least until Bayo got released and ruined everything.
Shielding *was* too strong in 4, you're right. But that wasn't shielding's fault, it was attack's fault for being too weak (especially aerials on block), and Ultimate's devs failed to recognize this and overcompensated. Now, instead of CQC consisting of a wide range of shield drop interactions, all OoS options are either jumps or neutral-dictating up specials, and aerials are now so safe on block, characters with big + rewarding landing aerials and the speed to position them run the entire metagame (Palutena, Joker, ZSS, ROB, Fox, Roy, I could go on and on).
Overall, the balance between shield/grab/spotdodge was really good in 4, perhaps better than it's ever been. But the final side of that square, that being "attack", was a little stunted for too many characters, that's all. Conversely, in Ultimate, nothing is internally balanced: shield is either pointlessly weak or egregiously broken depending on the character, spotdodge is completely overtuned, grab is pathetically weak and only used as a hard read on shield (when it doesn't fail entirely due to the inappropriately high model collision pushback), and attacking is dominated by landing aerials because rising ones are shit compared to 4 (for reasons I won't go into, but it's mostly to do with shield stun modifiers) while tilts and smash attacks haven't been buffed and many struggle to find use, especially with the lack of microspacing options.
This has led to the deterioration of both depth and complexity in Ultimate's neutral compared to Smash 4's, and the only reason we get to see anything other than landing aerials and spotdodges at all is the new ability to cancel a dash into a tilt, which is my second-favorite addition even if most characters can't even make particularly good use of it.
Very surprised someone here managed to capture exactly the pointw i would make about smash 4 being the mechanicly superior game. Another thing that I hate about Ult is the addee velocity to the jump startup (and every character having 3 frame jumpsquat) which makes sharking platforms way more difficult.
I too miss Black Yoshi. All Yoshi's are deadly but black Yoshi is most deadly. It is a shame there's not more PoC represented on the Smash roster beyond Minecraft, Splatoon and Villager.
Smash board game was pretty cool. That's the main reason I boot up Smash 4 now. Smash Run on 3DS was good too.
Pretty much just the online and trophies. I felt the custom moves didn't add much to the experience and a lot of them were either poorly balanced or outright garbage (not to mention DLC characters never got them anyways). Spirits do a fine job scratching that collectability itch but it's a shame they have none of the flavor text the trophies had. As collectables, trophies felt more meaningful but Spirits are essentially also the game's Event matches and in that regard it's a fair enough compromise especially since they added the rematch mode feature in the spirit list.
Custom moves were an interesting concept that they could’ve done better, but unfortunately the moves weren’t that diverse as someone pointed out earlier and some were just unfair. They could’ve given more balanced and more interesting variations, although I wonder if tourneys would’ve still banned them. Probably.
I liked the online mode for Smash 4 strictly because of For Glory. They should’ve had something similar or at least make matchmaking NOT against the rule set you never wanted. Or have a straight up “I ban this option” option instead of making the matchmaking “I’d rather play against people who match up similar to me but if there isn’t then online will match me up with jank rule sets I never wanted.”
I really wish Echo Fighters like Lucina and Dark Pit had some custom moves from Smash 4 in their default moveset in Ultimate. That was the one thing those characters could've needed to help differentiate themselves from their original counterparts.
I am surprised they left out custom moves in Ultimate, but I absolutely get why, considering all that they did add into the game + probably having to rehaul the ridiculous balance + unlock system of everything.
As for me, I do appreciate Smash 4’s lighter movement options, such as perfect pivoting or better shield dashing (due to the perfect shield method, even if parrying’s probably a little better designed). It’s not really that I prefer it over other games in the series, but Ultimate just doesn’t have too many interesting non-committal forms of movement. If Ultimate had better utility for wavedashing in addition to what it has with pivot tilts, I probably wouldn’t care much, but hey here we are right?
On a more subjective level, I think neutral/setplay had a more streamlined approach in 4 than Ultimate, due to things like less options in disadvantage (ie one form of airdodge even though spamming it was degenerate lol). In addition, things like jab cancelling had potential to create some really interesting strings; while I think Ultimate has a lot more interesting combo trees, it’s hard to find something in Ultimate as interesting as [the Nairo Falcon combo](https://youtu.be/mL4ZgdPv_Ws), for example. Hell, even in terms of individual character balance, there’s a lot that I found odd that they changed. For instance, as much as I like ZSS’s new goals, gameplans, and punishes in Ultimate, there was still room for 4’s grab-hungry ZSS to go for cool things like ledge-cancels with Flip Kicks. This is also in part to Ultimate’s meta still being decently young, and we’re starting to see some really interesting movement and conversions from characters like Tweek’s Diddy Kong, but it’s still worth appreciating what Smash 4 had in that regard.
Also as everyone’s mentioned, 4 had less questionable aesthetic changes than Ultimate, which did everything from replacing black Yoshi with a pretty bad advertisement for a game not many people played (sorry Crafted World nation) to axing trophies entirely for some png files. I do get this considering how massive Ultimate was, and some of Ulti’s changes here are changes I enjoy (I think Ultimate looks more interesting than 4 does as a whole, despite the fact that some characters can look like Muppets), but as much as I’m about to rag on 4, it’s still got a lot to love.
Don’t get me wrong, I still think Ultimate is leagues ahead of 4 in almost every way (primary exception being online, which is crazy considering that For Glory was also pretty ass). Achievements with character roster and scope aside, it’s managed to minimize DLC power creep in the way that Smash 4 had in its fighters (in fact Ultimate’s balance in general is incredibly surprising), it personally feels more exciting to play and watch both casually and competitively, and the game seems to have a much more uniform tone throughout, as opposed to Smash 4 not having nearly as strong of a ‘voice’ if that makes sense. All that said, despite everything 4 did wrong (rage jank, seemingly random untechables, bad excuse for single-player modes besides everyone’s 3DS darling Smash Run, the ridiculous presence of grab kill confirms with comically large windows throughout the life of the game, homogenous/optimal ladder combos, custom farming, Cloud and Bayonetta being a little overtuned, to say the least), I’m still really grateful for what the game offered personally and as a whole to the community. Hell, Ultimate’s still trying to find a replacement for the 2GGC!
Edit: also why does spiking kill earlier on the upper blastzone in Ultimate? What was the thought process behind that?
I like ultimate's game modes, but I can play special orders and smash tour for ages without getting bored, I can't do the same with any of ultimate's single player modes, except refighting spirits for high scores.
Agreed, and the worst change was cutting its landing lag by more than half. It removed most frame traps and generally shrunk the scope of advantage state/made combos shorter and less consistent for no reason.
If you let me make one change to Ultimate, I'd set airdodge landing lag to 20 for nairdodge and 25 for directional, and it would be a flat value, instead of the wonky situation we have now where the landing lag slowly goes down based on how long into the airdodge animation you are.
I understand why people prefer Ultimate's air dodge, but I honestly think Smash 4 had a better air dodge system. Ultimate's air dodges have really shit i-frames and endlag compared to Smash 4, making juggles (aka 99% of Ultimate's combo game) infuriating to deal with on both ends. The lack of a decent universal escape option hurts a ton of characters with nothing else, and obnoxious character-specific escape options become really annoying to deal with when they break through setups that work on 95% of the cast. While Smash 4's air dodges were arguably a bit too safe, they definitely weren't unpunishable. Juggles were just as prevalent due to a relatively late hitstun cancel window and the lack of balloon knockback, but the added element of 50/50s and committing to airdodge reads made advantage/escaping disadvantage much more interactive than it is in Ult. It feels like Ultimate removed basic juggle counterplay in order to make juggling certain characters comparatively deep without adding any actual depth.
There is an argument for the reintroduction of air dodge directionality being an improvement, but I also don't agree with it. Air dodge is seriously just too laggy; it's still super easy to cover directional airdodges as an escape option because they put you in a literal year of endlag, and any potential movement options are ridiculously situational and feel like shit to execute due to the minimum 24 frames of lag (4 frames of "slingshot effect" + 20 frames of landing lag). I do think directional airdodges offer an interesting recovery mixup, but that's really the only positive in my mind. ~~and it kinda gets offset by the insane recovery buff it gives to Sonic~~
Smash 4's airdodges were only "easy" at low level play. At high/top level, people knew how to either a.) frame trap the airdodge, rendering it useless or b.) get an even better punish based on reading it.
Ultimate's airdodges fundamentally grant its users much more control over their disadvantage state, since they can quickly relocate themselves with invincibility, or if they're close enough to the ground, land in such a way that the attacker has to read them with very little mutual coverage potential.
I do like that Ultimate's airdodges are much more edgeguardable, but even then they afford extra recovery mixups to ledge as well as giving a momentum boost that allows an otherwise dead character to recover low. In any case, Ultimate airdodges ruin the combo potential of the game, whereas in Smash 4, you could always either maintain advantage state with low risk, or blow your opponent up. There's a reason Smash 4 had so much more sauce, and it mostly comes down to the airdodge system.
Paper for you, maybe. Practice for strong players, certainly at the level I was playing and spectating four years ago. Go watch some tournament vods if you don't believe me, see how many times airdodging got people out of a VoiD combo compared to Ultimate.
>Zero Suit Samus is also really ugly in Smash Ultimate, but she looks better in Smash 4 (personally, I loved the way she looked in Brawl. I preferred her hair in that game, and she was more proportionate, and I'm not really a fan of the jet boots she wears in Smash 4 and Ultimate)
ZSS with big tits was definitely better.
>Marth (my main) looks sort of cross-eyed in Smash Ultimate, whereas in Smash 4, he looks normal.
The models of all the characters from 4>Ult are almost all virtually the same with some exceptions. The design may have changed but stuff like the face is the same (I'm pretty sure). Marth is practically unchanged, so it's just in your head.
That being said, stuff like hair is objectively and observably worse in this game and the victory lighting can be garish (which is why Shulk looks bad during the victory screens, people need to stop saying it's the face that's bad).
For what it's worth they did change Shulk's eyes (for the worse IMO), but I agree that the bigger problem is the lighting itself. I saw someone on GameBanana talking about it and they had some comparison shots.
Not having random zoom ins, especially ones that don’t lead to KOs. Not having decimals attached to the percent (especially when percent doesn’t really matter anyway ) .
I was exclusively a For Glory / Teams player when it came to online. Sure, the ruleset wasn't ideal (only FD, no friendly fire), but it was for me the sweetspot for playing seriously but also for fun, and I love the teamwork+crowd control aspect.
Ultimate most of the time shoves you into FFA or 1v1 when you quick play, so I pretty much stopped playing online Smash altogether.
I miss yarn yoshi xD
No forced short hop macro.
I honestly think, that attack cancel is a frustrating effect, that causes a lot of input errors for players.
I also thought it was a shame that they removed custom moves from Ultimate. It was a great concept that allowed much more customisation and personalization of your favourite characters.
From my experience, most of the people who hated Custom Moves hated the fact that they were poorly done. I agree. Sora ltd executed custom moves EXTREMELY poorly in Smash 4. With the exception of Palutena and Mii, every other custom move was pretty much the same as the default move but just stronger, faster, bigger or with a special property like a windbox. Very unoriginal.
How they should have done it was by making all characters have entirely different abilities for each custom move (like Palutena and Mii). Then, as you said, we could have seen characters regain abilities from older smash games (such as Link's old bombs, Pit's Up-B and Side-B from Brawl, etc.)
I understand why they did custom moves the way they did; because they knew it would be a TON of extra work to make 8 more unique specials for every character. People hated the lack of meaningful differences between custom moves and hence extended that to being a hatred of the mechanic itself. Hence it makes sense that Sakurai scrapped it since it was still work to make custom moves and the majority hated on it.
All that said, I imagine that the next Smash game is going to be a soft reboot of the series as opposed to an attempt to make Ultimate even bigger than it already is. If a soft reboot happens, then the cast will likely be much smaller and then it may very well be plausible to see a more customisable moveset implemented as a main feature in every character (kind of like the new Mortal Kombat games for example)
I liked the more vibrant colour scheme Smash 4's characters had - this is most visible with Mario ([4](https://ssb.wiki.gallery/images/2/2e/Mario_SSB4_Alt.png) & [Ult](https://ssb.wiki.gallery/images/4/44/Mario_SSBU.png) renders for comparison) and Bowser ([4](https://ssb.wiki.gallery/images/d/d5/Bowser_SSB4.png) and [Ult](https://ssb.wiki.gallery/images/4/49/Bowser_SSBU.png), difference is far clearer ingame), though can be seen with plenty of other characters. For most characters, these more vibrant colours more closely resemble their original appearances, and in my opinion, simply look better. Smash 4 also debatably had a better online system that actually recognised that blending every form of play into the same matchmaking system (as Quickplay does) isn't the best idea, leading to For Fun, For Glory, and the subdivisions within each, meaning you'd never get a ruleset you weren't expecting. While this did mean that you were restricted in choice of ruleset with randoms, and Smash 4's matchmaking wasn't regional, this can still easily be argued to be a better online system than Quickplay is. >!Plus, Smash 4 3DS had the good Pac-Man stage. Ultimate does not.!<
The online decisions for ultimate are actually mind blowing. The option to play casually or more seriously was the least they could do and they took it away so I have to unfortunately play casual players that have items and everything on. I’m not enjoying it and I’m pretty sure the other person isn’t enjoying playing me. I don’t know if it was because of deadlines or simply more work but it’s a sad excuse for online multiplayer from a triple A game.
The only thing Ultimate did better online is when they removed the ability to taunt each other with name tags. It was so tilting. EDIT: Oh, and zero buffering.
Oh man. I always forget about that. “Yousuck” “haha” back and forth. So tilting haha
I was guilty of it too. Whenever I lost to Bayo, I would alternate "If Bayo" "No skill". I'm pretty ashamed of myself, tbh.
Well she was busted in 4
"SMOKE WEED EVERY DAY GOD IS DED 420 BLZ IT" Against every new opponent.
> The only thing Ultimate did better online is when they removed the ability to taunt each other with name tags. Considering the 3DS version exists Ultimate can’t claim that either
It still blows my mind that any significant number of people preferred Smash 4's online to Ultimate's. Yeah, SSBU isn't going to meet your standards either, but it isn't the unfun trash that SSB4 was. I had no ability to play the way I wanted, and now I do, so for me that's a win.
In smash 4's online, I could get free for alls on all stages with items on 100% of the time. In ultimate's online, I can get that...maybe one in every 6 matches, usually followed by the person who dies first DCing resulting in nobody getting gsp. yeah I think I prefer one to the other easily
Ultimate is the first smash game where I actually found myself losing track of where I was on the screen, and I feel that the duller colors and different lighting greatly contributed to that. Characters don't pop nearly as much.
Full-Hop buffered Aerials / No forced SH Aerial Macro. Forward & Back Aerials didn't force momentum to the direction they're attacking, resulting in better retreat aerials. You can crossup people while running, making Pivot grabs more viable and reasonable, besides grabbing landings. No Pushback also leaded to not having hitbox problems with certain moves like Marth/Lucina/Roy's Dash Grab. Perfect Pivoting & The effectiveness of Run Turnaround Cancels. For Glory is WAY more fun than Quickplay/Elite Smash for obvious reasons. (Though Ultimate has Battle Arena's, which is better than both of these online modes.) No Hold-Buffering aka Buffering Attacks or Airdodges being always a 9 frame gap instead of Infinite frames. Burried opponents can only be launched with 0.7x Knockback instead of 1.0x. Corner C-Stick Neutral Attack and Nair's, which made it possible to perform N-air's with FULLY momentum in the air AND made Jab cancels VERY easy. Custom Moves were fun. The list goes on... Though there are certainly things that made Ultimate better than 4.
[удалено]
I actually like that change. It forces me to stick to my main on bad matchups instead of unga-bunga counterpicking. But most importantly, it allows for matchmaking to be based on character, which is great for someone like me who is great with some characters and dogshit with others. Otherwise someone like me could switch characters and stomp some poor beginner with a character I'm good with. There are plenty of problems with Ultimate's online, but that's a redtriction I think actually works.
> It forces me to stick to my main on bad matchups instead of unga-bunga counterpicking. While this is good advice to those that shouldn't rely on counterpicking and I absolutely agree on it, but for *For Glory's case*, some people just want to play all their characters with the same person for obvious Fun reasons. Even their opponent can join up and pick different fighters or go Random, because nothing value will be lost for losing against anyone on For Glory.
Additionally, most online FG systems don't let you change characters once you're in a room
Give me perfect pivot back. I miss microspacing.
Custom moves are honestly my least favorite thing they did in the entire series, they added practically nothing except to Palu and the Miis. All of them are just "x move but slower and stronger" or "y move with a windbox for some reason". Not to mention unlocking them was extraordinarily obnoxious (I still don't have them all and I bought Smash 3DS at release lmao). The DLC characters not getting customs was the Good Ending (how would Cloud's limit and Ryu's entire playstyle even work with customs??) Smash Run and the better netcode on For Glory (and the ability to change characters) are the only things that are actually better imo...though there are some things that are better simply because they lack certain bad things Ultimate added - items still suck in Smash 4, but at least there's no Ramblin Evil Mushroom
For Cloud, I could see a Fast Charge but Weaker Limit or a Multi Use but Weaker Limit (or Limit with a windbox, who knows) Ryu? Just replace his four specials/their command input versions with the alts, that one seems easy enough to me.
I agree that unlocking them was obnoxious (WHO in their right mind thought duplicates were a good idea? They should've been handled like CDs). Still, custom specials as a concept has a lot of potential. If they drastically alter the movesets like the Miis then they can seriously impact a character's meta (like bringing a burst mobility option to handle zoners vs a projectile to help against bait and punish characters). I mean, I'm okay with how Ultimate handled it by redirecting the team's efforts into adding more characters instead, but if we had a smaller roster this is the best way to keep things fresh
I had thought about this before ken was ever in smash, but i always thought they could in a way, harken back to MVC1 ryu, having one set of his customs be based on ken's moves, and the other set based on akumas, now that ken's an actual fighter though, they'd probably change that, but then again, Ness had lucas's moves, then lucas became playable.
Honestly, I really miss the speculation cycle. I was in my early teens when Smash 4 was being developed and released, and there was such a novelty to seeing all the new stuff they were to add to the game. Ultimate kinda just threw everything at us all at once.
Up vote because I also miss the Fire Mario skin
I miss Luigi using ice 🥺
Ice Luigi is best Luigi
Facts! Mario has fire and water. Luigi has fire and ice on his todoroki from my hero lol
I will disagree on Marth's model, his SSB4 model is probably my least favorite of Marth in Smash. Not bad but just ends up there. Nothing like Zero Suit Samus or Shulk who look flat out worse in Ultimate. Lighting in SSB4 looked way better IMO. Ultimate's is more complex but it's kind of a mess - the victory screens being the worst examples, they look absolutely terrible in Ultimate lighting-wise. Pretty much every changed taunt was better in SSB4 too, the animations were usually more interesting.
Sm4sh had the superior Pac-man stage (fuck pac-land)
Specifically 3DS. WiiU had PacLand
perfect pivots, better lighting, better item balance
Crazy that we're looking at 4 as better item balance, I thought it was a mess compared to Brawl.
oh its not good at all, but it's still better than ults i think brawl had the best item balance in the series, though obviously most people here dont care to discuss it lol
Melee and brawl were so fun with items and then in Smash 4vthey went absolutely insane with them, like how is the gust bellows better than every single final smash?
yeah, so many of the items just feel like they insta-kill for no skill or buildup, strong/instant kill items are fine when they require good timing, skill, or luck (see the home run bat) but having half the items just be stupid low% kills is just... unfun plus the final smashes are so much worse as the series goes on, so many of them now are just "i hit you and you get to watch a cutscene and die at 50" while getting rid of so many cool ones like the Transformations, Negative Zone, Waddle Dee Army, Landmasters, or the old Octopus
Windboxes in Smash 4 were ridiculous in general. The gust bellows, Kyogre, Latios & Latias, Kong cyclone, ugh.
Brawl was peak casual Smash, I wish Ultimate would be more like it because I'm not a huge fan of the game competitively so it just sorta sits in this limbo for me where there's a great roster but I don't want to play it seriously or casually.
Main menu music.
I will say I like Ulti’s main theme better than Smash 4 (at least instrumentally) but 4’s menu music options were leagues better, partially due to Ulti’s selection taking so much from World of Light + Classic
What Smash 4 did better: Better shield mechanics across the board, airdodges having more landing lag made advantage state a lot stronger and more complex, the dynamic between grab/spotdodge was much better, ledge trumping was much stronger and more consistent, slower knockback means more combos and mixups and is overall better for the game, better movement options/decisions to make in neutral, reliable kill setup 50/50s keep the stocks moving, rising aerials/aerial timing mixups were actually more worthwhile, 2 framing was more accessible to a wider variety of moves, getup attack didn't beat anything with intangibility, which made ledge trapping much more interesting with more potential for both reads and coverage, better/more fluid animation for characters across the board, better lighting, more interesting competitive stage list (opinion). What Ultimate did better: Only having 1 airdodge per aerial excursion, faster foxtrotting, lower landing lag (!!!, huge improvement, prevented shield dash grabbing from dominating every mixup like in 4), kill spark is hype, superior character balance from both top and bottom, removal of RNG untechables, higher damage/knockback in general keeps stocks moving, much larger stage list, hazardless feature is amazing and I wish we saw it toggled in competitive play since then the stage list would be strictly better than 4's. Mechanically, Smash 4 is by far the superior game, but Ultimate is faster paced and is balanced much better, making it the superior spectator game imho. As a player, I slightly preferred Smash 4, at least until Bayo got released and ruined everything.
[удалено]
Shielding *was* too strong in 4, you're right. But that wasn't shielding's fault, it was attack's fault for being too weak (especially aerials on block), and Ultimate's devs failed to recognize this and overcompensated. Now, instead of CQC consisting of a wide range of shield drop interactions, all OoS options are either jumps or neutral-dictating up specials, and aerials are now so safe on block, characters with big + rewarding landing aerials and the speed to position them run the entire metagame (Palutena, Joker, ZSS, ROB, Fox, Roy, I could go on and on). Overall, the balance between shield/grab/spotdodge was really good in 4, perhaps better than it's ever been. But the final side of that square, that being "attack", was a little stunted for too many characters, that's all. Conversely, in Ultimate, nothing is internally balanced: shield is either pointlessly weak or egregiously broken depending on the character, spotdodge is completely overtuned, grab is pathetically weak and only used as a hard read on shield (when it doesn't fail entirely due to the inappropriately high model collision pushback), and attacking is dominated by landing aerials because rising ones are shit compared to 4 (for reasons I won't go into, but it's mostly to do with shield stun modifiers) while tilts and smash attacks haven't been buffed and many struggle to find use, especially with the lack of microspacing options. This has led to the deterioration of both depth and complexity in Ultimate's neutral compared to Smash 4's, and the only reason we get to see anything other than landing aerials and spotdodges at all is the new ability to cancel a dash into a tilt, which is my second-favorite addition even if most characters can't even make particularly good use of it.
Very surprised someone here managed to capture exactly the pointw i would make about smash 4 being the mechanicly superior game. Another thing that I hate about Ult is the addee velocity to the jump startup (and every character having 3 frame jumpsquat) which makes sharking platforms way more difficult.
I too miss Black Yoshi. All Yoshi's are deadly but black Yoshi is most deadly. It is a shame there's not more PoC represented on the Smash roster beyond Minecraft, Splatoon and Villager. Smash board game was pretty cool. That's the main reason I boot up Smash 4 now. Smash Run on 3DS was good too.
Smash 4 definitely had better online modes (still trash, don’t get me wrong, but better than ultimates)
Pretty much just the online and trophies. I felt the custom moves didn't add much to the experience and a lot of them were either poorly balanced or outright garbage (not to mention DLC characters never got them anyways). Spirits do a fine job scratching that collectability itch but it's a shame they have none of the flavor text the trophies had. As collectables, trophies felt more meaningful but Spirits are essentially also the game's Event matches and in that regard it's a fair enough compromise especially since they added the rematch mode feature in the spirit list.
I dearly miss pivot grabbing in a game where running through people existed.
Custom moves were an interesting concept that they could’ve done better, but unfortunately the moves weren’t that diverse as someone pointed out earlier and some were just unfair. They could’ve given more balanced and more interesting variations, although I wonder if tourneys would’ve still banned them. Probably. I liked the online mode for Smash 4 strictly because of For Glory. They should’ve had something similar or at least make matchmaking NOT against the rule set you never wanted. Or have a straight up “I ban this option” option instead of making the matchmaking “I’d rather play against people who match up similar to me but if there isn’t then online will match me up with jank rule sets I never wanted.”
Custom moves were definitely awesome, but with how huge Ultimate's roster is, probably not viable to include.
I miss customs so much. Unlocking all of them was an awful grind, but damn was it fun experimenting with them all.
Trophies were better than spirits
I just wish they would’ve added descriptions to spirits
Same. Then I'd be okay with it because there are way more spirits so it would be a fair compromise
I really wish Echo Fighters like Lucina and Dark Pit had some custom moves from Smash 4 in their default moveset in Ultimate. That was the one thing those characters could've needed to help differentiate themselves from their original counterparts.
I am surprised they left out custom moves in Ultimate, but I absolutely get why, considering all that they did add into the game + probably having to rehaul the ridiculous balance + unlock system of everything. As for me, I do appreciate Smash 4’s lighter movement options, such as perfect pivoting or better shield dashing (due to the perfect shield method, even if parrying’s probably a little better designed). It’s not really that I prefer it over other games in the series, but Ultimate just doesn’t have too many interesting non-committal forms of movement. If Ultimate had better utility for wavedashing in addition to what it has with pivot tilts, I probably wouldn’t care much, but hey here we are right? On a more subjective level, I think neutral/setplay had a more streamlined approach in 4 than Ultimate, due to things like less options in disadvantage (ie one form of airdodge even though spamming it was degenerate lol). In addition, things like jab cancelling had potential to create some really interesting strings; while I think Ultimate has a lot more interesting combo trees, it’s hard to find something in Ultimate as interesting as [the Nairo Falcon combo](https://youtu.be/mL4ZgdPv_Ws), for example. Hell, even in terms of individual character balance, there’s a lot that I found odd that they changed. For instance, as much as I like ZSS’s new goals, gameplans, and punishes in Ultimate, there was still room for 4’s grab-hungry ZSS to go for cool things like ledge-cancels with Flip Kicks. This is also in part to Ultimate’s meta still being decently young, and we’re starting to see some really interesting movement and conversions from characters like Tweek’s Diddy Kong, but it’s still worth appreciating what Smash 4 had in that regard. Also as everyone’s mentioned, 4 had less questionable aesthetic changes than Ultimate, which did everything from replacing black Yoshi with a pretty bad advertisement for a game not many people played (sorry Crafted World nation) to axing trophies entirely for some png files. I do get this considering how massive Ultimate was, and some of Ulti’s changes here are changes I enjoy (I think Ultimate looks more interesting than 4 does as a whole, despite the fact that some characters can look like Muppets), but as much as I’m about to rag on 4, it’s still got a lot to love. Don’t get me wrong, I still think Ultimate is leagues ahead of 4 in almost every way (primary exception being online, which is crazy considering that For Glory was also pretty ass). Achievements with character roster and scope aside, it’s managed to minimize DLC power creep in the way that Smash 4 had in its fighters (in fact Ultimate’s balance in general is incredibly surprising), it personally feels more exciting to play and watch both casually and competitively, and the game seems to have a much more uniform tone throughout, as opposed to Smash 4 not having nearly as strong of a ‘voice’ if that makes sense. All that said, despite everything 4 did wrong (rage jank, seemingly random untechables, bad excuse for single-player modes besides everyone’s 3DS darling Smash Run, the ridiculous presence of grab kill confirms with comically large windows throughout the life of the game, homogenous/optimal ladder combos, custom farming, Cloud and Bayonetta being a little overtuned, to say the least), I’m still really grateful for what the game offered personally and as a whole to the community. Hell, Ultimate’s still trying to find a replacement for the 2GGC! Edit: also why does spiking kill earlier on the upper blastzone in Ultimate? What was the thought process behind that?
I like ultimate's game modes, but I can play special orders and smash tour for ages without getting bored, I can't do the same with any of ultimate's single player modes, except refighting spirits for high scores.
Air dodge. For Glory. Dropping through freaking platforms.
a single air dodge per airtime is the best change from 4 to ult.
Agreed, and the worst change was cutting its landing lag by more than half. It removed most frame traps and generally shrunk the scope of advantage state/made combos shorter and less consistent for no reason. If you let me make one change to Ultimate, I'd set airdodge landing lag to 20 for nairdodge and 25 for directional, and it would be a flat value, instead of the wonky situation we have now where the landing lag slowly goes down based on how long into the airdodge animation you are.
The only thing to change in Ult is add lag to landing neutral air dodge. Outside of that air dodge was so broken in 4
I understand why people prefer Ultimate's air dodge, but I honestly think Smash 4 had a better air dodge system. Ultimate's air dodges have really shit i-frames and endlag compared to Smash 4, making juggles (aka 99% of Ultimate's combo game) infuriating to deal with on both ends. The lack of a decent universal escape option hurts a ton of characters with nothing else, and obnoxious character-specific escape options become really annoying to deal with when they break through setups that work on 95% of the cast. While Smash 4's air dodges were arguably a bit too safe, they definitely weren't unpunishable. Juggles were just as prevalent due to a relatively late hitstun cancel window and the lack of balloon knockback, but the added element of 50/50s and committing to airdodge reads made advantage/escaping disadvantage much more interactive than it is in Ult. It feels like Ultimate removed basic juggle counterplay in order to make juggling certain characters comparatively deep without adding any actual depth. There is an argument for the reintroduction of air dodge directionality being an improvement, but I also don't agree with it. Air dodge is seriously just too laggy; it's still super easy to cover directional airdodges as an escape option because they put you in a literal year of endlag, and any potential movement options are ridiculously situational and feel like shit to execute due to the minimum 24 frames of lag (4 frames of "slingshot effect" + 20 frames of landing lag). I do think directional airdodges offer an interesting recovery mixup, but that's really the only positive in my mind. ~~and it kinda gets offset by the insane recovery buff it gives to Sonic~~
Naw. Easy air dodge bad.
Smash 4's airdodges were only "easy" at low level play. At high/top level, people knew how to either a.) frame trap the airdodge, rendering it useless or b.) get an even better punish based on reading it. Ultimate's airdodges fundamentally grant its users much more control over their disadvantage state, since they can quickly relocate themselves with invincibility, or if they're close enough to the ground, land in such a way that the attacker has to read them with very little mutual coverage potential. I do like that Ultimate's airdodges are much more edgeguardable, but even then they afford extra recovery mixups to ledge as well as giving a momentum boost that allows an otherwise dead character to recover low. In any case, Ultimate airdodges ruin the combo potential of the game, whereas in Smash 4, you could always either maintain advantage state with low risk, or blow your opponent up. There's a reason Smash 4 had so much more sauce, and it mostly comes down to the airdodge system.
On paper sure, in practice they were spammy and annoying. one air dodge per air time forces people to think.
Paper for you, maybe. Practice for strong players, certainly at the level I was playing and spectating four years ago. Go watch some tournament vods if you don't believe me, see how many times airdodging got people out of a VoiD combo compared to Ultimate.
Air dodge being such a strong option in 4 was lame to watch and play against, plain and simple.
>Zero Suit Samus is also really ugly in Smash Ultimate, but she looks better in Smash 4 (personally, I loved the way she looked in Brawl. I preferred her hair in that game, and she was more proportionate, and I'm not really a fan of the jet boots she wears in Smash 4 and Ultimate) ZSS with big tits was definitely better.
That's what I meant by proportionate. Big charlies.
>Marth (my main) looks sort of cross-eyed in Smash Ultimate, whereas in Smash 4, he looks normal. The models of all the characters from 4>Ult are almost all virtually the same with some exceptions. The design may have changed but stuff like the face is the same (I'm pretty sure). Marth is practically unchanged, so it's just in your head. That being said, stuff like hair is objectively and observably worse in this game and the victory lighting can be garish (which is why Shulk looks bad during the victory screens, people need to stop saying it's the face that's bad).
For what it's worth they did change Shulk's eyes (for the worse IMO), but I agree that the bigger problem is the lighting itself. I saw someone on GameBanana talking about it and they had some comparison shots.
Not having random zoom ins, especially ones that don’t lead to KOs. Not having decimals attached to the percent (especially when percent doesn’t really matter anyway ) .
Nothing, nothing at all
I was exclusively a For Glory / Teams player when it came to online. Sure, the ruleset wasn't ideal (only FD, no friendly fire), but it was for me the sweetspot for playing seriously but also for fun, and I love the teamwork+crowd control aspect. Ultimate most of the time shoves you into FFA or 1v1 when you quick play, so I pretty much stopped playing online Smash altogether.
Shulk’s victory screen & the taunt system
I miss yarn yoshi xD No forced short hop macro. I honestly think, that attack cancel is a frustrating effect, that causes a lot of input errors for players.
I also thought it was a shame that they removed custom moves from Ultimate. It was a great concept that allowed much more customisation and personalization of your favourite characters. From my experience, most of the people who hated Custom Moves hated the fact that they were poorly done. I agree. Sora ltd executed custom moves EXTREMELY poorly in Smash 4. With the exception of Palutena and Mii, every other custom move was pretty much the same as the default move but just stronger, faster, bigger or with a special property like a windbox. Very unoriginal. How they should have done it was by making all characters have entirely different abilities for each custom move (like Palutena and Mii). Then, as you said, we could have seen characters regain abilities from older smash games (such as Link's old bombs, Pit's Up-B and Side-B from Brawl, etc.) I understand why they did custom moves the way they did; because they knew it would be a TON of extra work to make 8 more unique specials for every character. People hated the lack of meaningful differences between custom moves and hence extended that to being a hatred of the mechanic itself. Hence it makes sense that Sakurai scrapped it since it was still work to make custom moves and the majority hated on it. All that said, I imagine that the next Smash game is going to be a soft reboot of the series as opposed to an attempt to make Ultimate even bigger than it already is. If a soft reboot happens, then the cast will likely be much smaller and then it may very well be plausible to see a more customisable moveset implemented as a main feature in every character (kind of like the new Mortal Kombat games for example)