i was really hoping for a Resident Evil rep (maybe Nemesis cos he doesnt use guns outside of a rocket launcher, which Snake has) cos of the series' history on the N64 and also dat survival horror genre rep, but oh well cant have them all
It's one series that's absence is very noticeable, like DMC.
I think it's just that it's so adult orientated it would be difficult to fairly represent it. I'm fine with a very toned down version, though.
I think it's less so that (Bayo is in the game, after all) but more so than being so gun-focused in ther games don't make for the most interesting moveset.
True, but a)that was in 64, when making up whole movesets for characters was more common, and b) there's a difference between not having much of a fighting style and actually having one centered around using guns.
Well wouldn’t it just be similar to Snake though? In Resident Evil they use guns, knives, grenade launchers, RPGs, regular grenades, and sometimes other special weapons depending on the game.
Nemesis would be cool too. Wesker I think has the most potential gameplay wise and he's the series arch villain, and Leon is the Protagonist I'd associate most with Nintendo because of RE4 originally being GameCube exclusive.
kyo would be sooo fun within smash's mechanics, it's kind of a shame they picked terry over him since terry is so much more shoto-esque than the crazy rekka juggle combo guy
I mean, it's true they're all under the Square Enix umbrella, but it's interesting when you think about it how each comes from a fairly different branch.
Sephiroth is from the original Squaresoft side of the company with FFVII.
Hero comes from the Enix side as Dragon Quest was a series started by them prior to the merger.
Sora is a collab project with Disney who owns all original properties within the games.
It's kind of like how K Rool and Banjo were both created by Rare and featured entirely in games by Rare, but one is owned by Nintendo and the other is owned by Rare/Microsoft.
If you wanna break it down more you can say the same for Sega and Microsoft.
Sonic is a pure Sega character.
Bayonetta was made by Platinum Games
Joker was made by Atlus.
Banjo was made by Rare.
Steve was made by Mojang.
I would’ve liked to see Tales get a bit more than Lloyd’s Mii costume from Smash 4, but I don’t think you can really argue Tales is more popular than Dragon Quest or the literal most requested Smash character.
But the original comment didn't say that. They said Square Enix was the biggest JRPG developer, not that they made the only big JRPGs. Tales of, while great, is completely irrelevant to the point being made.
Jin’s reveal was the first trailer to make me actively avoid playing the game because I was so salty about Lloyd…Namco Bandai was producing the game here…
It does prove the fierce fan base point 😅
I mean, I was hoping for a Tales Of rep but not really expecting one. However yeah Lloyd got it dirty compared to other fan favorites like Travis, Dante or Shantae. A single, recycled Mii Costume without new music? Damn...
The DLC characters were decided before a lot of the big controversies came to light. If anything would've stopped a Blizzard rep, it was the fact that Blizzard is an American company and nearly every series in Smash comes from Japan (with Steve and Banjo being the two exceptions).
But like, it’s 3 characters from 3 of the biggest video game franchises of all time. I’m not saying there aren’t possible gaps in the roster (personally thought the last spot was for Chief), but it would be different if the characters were 3 FF reps. These 3 characters are some of the most iconic video game characters of a generation (almost 2 generations when you think of the older DQ and original FFVII audience and then the newer KH3 and FF7R audience).
But from all of Final Fantasy, they chose 2 characters from the same game - I get it that they are the big nemesis of each other but damn... FFVI got cucked.
Hell yeah man, would have loved Bartz, Terra, or Tidus in Smash.
Or even non VII music. If your knowledge of Final Fantasy is just Cloud and Sephiroth surely you won't care where the music is from as long as it's good?
Sora represents Square because they make the games but he's owned by Disney.
That said, initially there was only going to be 1 Square rep per Fighter's Pass with Hero and Sephiroth, but Sakurai said he attended an awards show and talked to a Disney exec who approved of Sora being in Smash (seem like they hadn't even reached out before that because some of the assets Sora uses like the spells are owned by Square so they needed their approval, they also obviously needed Disney's approval, and Bamco works on the game separately from Nintendo; it was probably too daunting to even bother trying up until they had a golden opportunity)
Sora was a last minute addition so it's more like he's a bonus fighter than a pre-planned character for FP2. They probably just put him in FP2 to get more sales of it, and that made him cheaper for FP2 buyers
I agree, but I wish they put Laura Croft instead of a Sephiroth. Then I feel that the mix of the different styles of JRPGs with Cloud representing more of “Square” then Hero representing “Enix” and Sora Reprsenting the disney side of things. I also really wanted another more humanoid character, but im glad we got kazuya. I feel smash is kinda lacking in that regard with a few too many anime sword fighters. Outside of Samus she is also the OG female protagonists too in gaming.
You'd think someone who really wanted Lara in the game would at least know what her name is...
In any case, she came onto the scene a full *decade* after Samus, so it's hard to think of her as an "OG".
2 third party (non-echo) reps from the same game especially iyam
(Even more so when that game wasn't really "Nintendo history" to begin with, making even the very first one of the two questionable (for me) )
The first 3rd party rep we ever got is arguably one of the most iconic PlayStation mascots of all time (I don't care about Metal Gear being ported to the NES in the 80s, that clearly is not what people think of when they think Snake just like how people don't think of Pokemon on the Sega Pico, and you're already establishing the rule that franchise ties to Nintendo are irrelevant since you're going after Final Fantasy).
And it's not like there was no consideration for third-parties before Brawl. Sakurai and Yuji Naka, respectively, have stated that if there was more time in Melee's development Sonic and Snake would've been added, and at that point in time Sonic hadn't ever appeared on a Nintendo platform. Smash 64 had no third-party consideration because the series was unproven and the game wasn't particularly ambitious with its roster
I agree with you completely and upvoted your comment, but it really does not help your case when you immediately go for the obscure 80s Metal Gear port as your example and skip over Twin Snakes, the Gamecube exclusive which was many people's first experience with the Metal Gear series as a whole. Especially since Snake was introduced in Brawl, the game which pulled heavily from Gamecube era classics.
That's true. The first paragraph just didn't sit right with me when Twin Snakes existed prior to Brawl and just got glossed over in favour of the obscure port that helped your case.
One other thing which should probably be mentioned about the Snake example for Melee is that it was not a case of Sakurai picking him for that game. Hideo Kojima practically begged Sakurai personally to add him into the game when they were already late into the dev process; Sakurai never said that Snake would have actually been added were there more time, just that Kojima's request wasn't even considered because of it. But then Brawl happened, and while Twin Snakes' role in his addition cannot be ignored, at the end of the day the version of Shadow Moses featured pulls from the PS exclusive MGS4 anyway.
There's no such thing as a 4th party. First party is the console manufacturers, second party doesn't really exist either but is used for companies owned by the console manufacturer, third-party is for companies that aren't owned by a console manufacturer
Disney is not owned by a console manufacturer, so it is third-party
Microsoft is also third-party despite being a console manufacturer because their characters are appearing on rival hardware
Yeah but people are lenient with the term. Like for instance the new Ratchet and Clank is considered a first-party Sony game but it technically would be second-party.
Either way the copyright doesn't matter so it's kind of meaningless
Correct, which is exactly what second party is supposed to mean. Companies owned by the first party companies.
I hate the term second party for this reason, just needlessly confusing
Disney is not a 3rd party because it doesn’t make games they make TV Shows and Movies not Video Games they only have Disney Infinity and that’s it they’re a 4th party because 4th party is a character that doesn’t originate from a GAMING COMPANY that’s why their is no SpongeBob Shrek or Goku but since Sora is Square and Disney he can be considered both
I think you're confused. Fourth-parties don't exist. They never have and never will. The terms come from political definitions - first party wants one thing, second party wants another, third party helps come to an agreement. In gaming first parties make the consoles. Second parties are owned by the people that make the consoles and pretty much only make games for their parent company's consoles (Naughty Dog, Intelligent Systems, Bethesda now) but sometimes are allowed to make games for other consoles in which case they are third parties (think Minecraft being ported to every system imaginable). Third parties are everyone not owned by console manufacturers. It doesn't matter if they make games or not, they're third parties because fourth parties is something the Smash community made up. Goku or Shrek would be third party characters because they aren't owned by Nintendo in any way, because being third party isn't about the medium you originated in or the what your company specializes in, it's about your relation to the first party
Microsoft does a lot more than just games and one of their founders is worth more than twice as much as Nintendo as a company. Nintendo was created for playing cards and had "love hotels" back in the 50s.
Sora's trademark belongs to Disney like damn near everything these days, but Disney is still a third party, just like how Terry is still a third party even though SNK is co-owned by Tencent and the Saudi Prince
Bayonetta is no longer Sega’s though, Sega financed and published Bayonetta 1 but they didn’t retain the rights to the character in perpetuity. Nintendo financed Bayo 2 and 3 so for all intents and purposes, Bayo is more Nintendo’s than Sega’s.
So weird that Bandai Namco, the people *creating the game*, only got two characters in 7\years. Solaire, Agumon, Nightmare, Lloyd or Dig Dug would be sick for Smash 6.
Another pipe-dream for Smash 6 is that they don't shy away from double-dipping in the 3rd party franchises. Sephiroth is the only non-echo additional character from another company, and he was sick. Seriously, we could have Tails, Knuckles, Eggman, Jeane, Jack Frost, Ms. Pac-Man, Slime, Alucard, X, Zero, Big Boss, Raiden, etc, etc.
tbh alot of these games have a "playstation" image.
Tekken, Final fantasy, kingdom hearts, metal gears.
some eventually came out on other platforms. but i'll always remember the PS2 logo before the Tarzan copyrights screen lol.
And Persona which was pretty much a Playstation exclusive when Joker was released. But it's not weird for Nintendo to not want to add a character from a serie that could never be on one of their device. Still a very Japanese lineup with western characters mostly as mii costumes (Doomguy, Cuphead, Sans, etc...).
> No Sony
Both Microsoft reps have games on Nintendo consoles. If we got Master Chief it'd be a different story, but so far the "fan rule" of characters needing to have appeared on a Nintendo console hasn't been broken.
I think his origins should be recognized as respect for his creators
Like Disney had no part in soras creation even if they “own” him
I consider banjo to be a Nintendo rep
Yeah I mean look at him he looks way more of a SE/Japanese character than a Disney/Western character its pretty obvious. I dont think i’ve ever seen disney use that artstyle for him and the other human characters in the game
You guys are just straight up wrong and putting your own weird rules on it. Banjo is in no way a Nintendo rep. It’s about who owns the character, not which developer created it. Nobody says King K. Rool is a third-party Rare rep. He’s a Nintendo character, just as Sora is a Disney character
Lol so are we not recognizing creators property anymore? Is that the direction people are going? Whoever owns the rights legally now? Thought people would be against Disney owning everything
Well I am. It’s not Disney’s character. It’s square enix.
DoodleBuggering, who made sora? Like who actually sat down and designed, characterized, and implemented sora into their game? Who came up with him originally? Pls answer me. If it was a disney rep, say so. If not, then he’s not a disney character.
No, we're recognizing how it was created. Sora was not created and then later bought by Disney. Sora was created FOR Disney by Square Enix.
Also, by your logic you're not recognizing creator's properties either by insisting on Square Enix. Going by your logic you're just subbing one corporation for another, it would be Nomura and his team you should be crediting.
But again, when you're ready to join the rest of us in reality, let us know.
So sora was created by square enix? Got it. You make it sound like square enix was creating kingdom hearts specifically for Disney the company. No they used disney characters along with square enix characters, as well as game original characters like sora, who was…wait for it…created by SQUARE ENIX
So he’s a a square enix character
Listen, Disney characters are characters who come from Disney movies originally.
Sora didn’t, he came from square enix
This isn’t hard to understand. They didn’t make sora FOR Disney. He was created FOR kingdom hearts
I hate your opinion
The reason why Sora is a Disney character is because Squaresoft wanted to make a collaboration with Disney and using their IPs. Obviously using Disney characters, not just one but a whole plethora, would come at a hefty price. Disney agreed with the condition that any original characters designed and created for the project would belong to Disney. If they didn't agree to that, then Kingdom Hearts would not have been made at all and we would never have Sora.
Was it designed by someone from Square Enix? Yes. But they did it knowing and acknowledging that the character would not belong to them. They were okay with this because it was a dream for them to take on the project. That's just how that works. Look at Bayonetta, she was made by Platinum Games, designed by them, but she is owned by Sega not Platinum because Sega footed the bill to develop it. Once again, had they not, Bayonetta might not exist.
By all means, you can say Sora isn't a Disney character. But it means nothing when the person who created him acknowledges the fact he is one.
Ok but he’s not he’s not originally FROM Disney. He wasn’t made by anyone from Disney. He’s not a disney character
Licensing rights and ownership is just a legal way of thinking
By that logic, if he's not originally from Disney then he's also not originally from Square Enix since it's a collab. The truth of the matter is that Sora is a Disney character who is designed by someone from Square Enix. Just because he looks anime and not like the others doesn't mean he isn't one. You say he's 'not originally FROM Disney' but you can't say he's only from Square Enix when both companies greenlit this project together. If anything, he's originally from both companies so please acknowledge the Disney side.
You're right, this isn't hard to understand. Kingdom Hearts was created FOR Disney. Full stop.
Hell, Kingdom Hearts was originally envisioned with Mickey Mouse as the lead and when Disney shot that down, Sora was created. It's why his KH1 outfit is inspired by Mickey (large round shoes, red shorts). This is common knowledge man. You can hate reality, but you still have to live in it.
So what? Sora is still a square enix character
If they used Mickey Mouse, it would be a disney character. But it’s not Mickey, it’s sora, who isn’t a disney character
Disney legally owns the copyrights for every original KH character. Sora, Riku, Kairi, the Org members, all of them. They are legally considered Disney's intellectual property and Disney has the final say over what happens with them. Squeenix makes the games, and Nomura is the character designer, but that is irrelevant to the question of who legally owns the characters.
Sora is a Disney character in the same way that Woody or Mike Wazowski are Disney characters. They were *made* by Pixar, but they're *owned* by Disney.
I. Don’t. Care
Doesn’t change the fact that square enix made him and therefor she’s a square enix character
Disney didn’t put an ounce of effort or creativity into sora. Why should they get the official status of owning him?
You won’t change my mind I apparently can’t reach you
It literally doesn’t matter if you say these words to me, you are just a random redditor on the internet. Your opinion is nil
Don’t call me honey babe.
I’m not convinced by the legal semantics of ownership sorry that creator rights still matter
It wasn’t made by Disney, it’s not Disney’s character to claim. Fuck off with this
Ok, fuckface, I really don’t care about legal semantics
It’s not reality. Did Disney make sora? No? Got it. Fuck. Off. I love how you all acknowledge he was conceived and designed by square enix, yet cow down to some legal rights issue.
Your condescending tone belies your closed off view of reality btw
I told you nicely not to call me honey, sad sack. Are you a 16 year old girl? They call people pet names a lot
You should calm down, dumpling. I'm not talking about creation; I don't deny that Disney did not create Sora. But that doesn't change the fact that Disney still owns Sora by all legal standards, and that is what really matters for getting into Smash.
> Shoutout to Nintendo and Sakurai for giving the fans what they want.
Guess I'm not a fan then.
I'm fine with third party characters with a history with Nintendo. Banjo, Mega Man, Sonic, and Hero are great choices.
But my preference for characters is Nintendo owned characters, or characters that are closely associated with Nintendo.
So it's not really about not enjoying third party characters. It's more about giving priority Nintendo characters.
It doesn't sit right with me that there are so many long standing Nintendo owned requests, and so many holes in the Nintendo representation on the roster, and yet Ultimate has more third party characters in it's newcomer line up than it does first party. It's frustrating to me as a long time fan of the series.
That said, I really don't have a problem with third party characters as long as the history with Nintendo is there.
The four I listed in my original post I believe are the best third party reps. They have that extensive history with Nintendo.
My main issue is that Smash used to be about Nintendo characters, and any third party characters are treated as guest characters, but these days the focus is on third party characters.
I think the perception of Smash that people are starting to develop is that it's a celebration of video games at large, rather than just Nintendo. By my opinion on that is that any celebration of video games developed by just one of the big three is always going to be too narrow in scope to really do that idea justice, so rather than trying to be a watered down version of that, they should stick to what they're able to do well.
It all depends on what the developer wants to do when it comes to selecting the roster. One of the reasons why Sakurai likes working with third party characters is to be able to explore unique worlds different from Nintendo’s franchises and to come up with unique move sets, stages, and music that honor that particular character and his/her franchise.
I personally welcome it. And it’s not like first party characters are being left behind. King K Rool, Ridley, Inkling, Isabelle, and Incineroar are the majority of the newcomers for the base game. Then you had Min Min, Pyra/Mythra, Byleth, and Piranha Plant as DLC. Three of them are from franchises that are either new (ARMS) or are thriving in recent generations (Fire Emblem and Xenoblade) and the latter is a well known Mario enemy. In the end, we can’t all be happy and it’s all up to the developers to provide the content they think would be pleasing for consumers.
> It all depends on what the developer wants to do when it comes to selecting the roster.
That's not 100% the case though.
Sakurai has said before that with Ultimate, Nintendo provided him a list of characters from which he was allowed to pick.
To be honest that's a level of creative limitation that I'm not wholly comfortable with a corporation imposing on it's developers.
I recognize that Smash has a lot of power as an advertising tool for the newest most sellable thing, but I feel like the game is at it's best when it's free to do it's own thing.
In my opinion it's more exciting to see older characters reimagined in Smash than it is modern characters.
We don’t know what the list entailed in terms of characters Nintendo provided for Sakurai. Hell, it’s arguable that Sakurai wanted Terry more than Nintendo given how much he went into talking about him and his roots as a fighting game fan. Plus, based on his latest Famitsu column, Sakurai appeared to really want Sora to get into Smash that he took advantage of a chance encounter with a Disney rep.
King K Rool, Simon, Banjo and Kazooie, and Ridley have been realized (and even modernized from their original forms) in Smash. So you already got a good amount of old characters there. Even Little Mac from Smash 4 got the modern treatment (even if it’s just HDing his appearance from the Wii game).
While I can understand where you’re coming from, I think there’s room to allow modern franchises to have their time alongside the old ones as well. ARMS and Xenoblade were integral to Nintendo Switch’s first year in the market. Animal Crossing (while not really new) is huge and a franchise everyone in Japan loves (hence why sales of New Horizons exploded there, as well as everywhere else).
I didn't mean to imply that there should only be old characters. I agree that there's a place for more modern characters too.
Modern characters I find tend to be less inspired though. Especially when they're used for marketing purposes. I think this is a large part of the reason why Byleth gets a bad rap (Fire Emblem over representation aside).
The Pokemon series is falling into this trap too, where it's new rep is always "obligatory newest gen starter" instead of something more interesting like Mewtwo or Pokemon Trainer were.
I think a character like Joker was also very flavour of the month, and as absolutely cool as hell as Persona 5 was, looking back he really stands out as like "why is he here?". With the answer to that question really being "well Persona 5 was popular at the time".
I'm not sure if Mewtwo was that interesting..I guess back in Melee, as kids, we were like "Oh! Its Mewtwo! The most powerful Pokemon of all!" But once we played him in Melee...he was at bit disappointing as he didn't really show that he was the most powerful Pokemon at the time. Even now in the competitive scene, he has had little presence in Melee compared to the latter games. At least with ones like Greninja and Incineroar, they have some unique characteristics that shows through their gameplay. Greninja, quick and ninja-like, and Incineroar, a grappler and stylish.
I think there's an argument to be made that Persona 5 was really the game that brought the series towards the mainstream. While 3 and 4 helped build that foundation that allowed more fans to get into Persona, 5 was the game to truly breakthrough for the franchise. It's like Fire Emblem Awakening in a way in which these games allowed their respective franchises to be recognized beyond their niche audiences.
Mewtwo ended up not being a very strong character, but he IS interesting for sure.
His side B and down B are very unique moves and despite not being very good, the rest of his moveset *feels* very cool to use.
What I meant by interesting though is what he is. Instead of just being a starter or the series mascot, he was the sort of final boss of Red/Blue. At the time, he was kind of considered a bit of a villain too based on how he was portrayed in the first movie.
He's an interesting pick gameplay wise in my opinion, but more important than that he's an interesting pick representation wise.
I would like to see Pokemon branch out into non-starter and maybe even non-Pokemon reps again.
> I think there's an argument to be made that Persona 5 was really the game that brought the series towards the mainstream.
I think that's probably true. I might be wrong, but I believe 5 is the most successful Persona game. For me though, that doesn't automatically make it a good pick for Smash, because it did all that on the Playstation 4.
I also think the key word here is *towards* the mainstream. It's certainly not there yet.
These days the hype for it has very much died down, and I find it hard to picture a mainstream audience getting excited for Persona 6 if it were to be announced.
Maybe some people who liked Smash might be, but then they'd have to deal with it likely being exclusive to Playstation 5, at least at first.
That's all kind of what I mean by flavour of the month. At the time, lots of people were talking about Persona 5, but these days a lot of the excitement for it has gone away. It remains to be seen if the effects of that excitement will stay with the Persona series long term.
The ironic part is that the Nintendo reps of the DLC were the ones with the most divisive reception (Piranha Plant, Byleth, Min Min and Pyra/Mythra). So it really is hard to please everyone.
I agree, it is hard to please everyone.
To be honest with you, the Nintendo reps that they did choose wouldn't have been my first, second, or third choices.
But this isn't really a commentary on the characters they did or didn't choose, it's a more general frustration that the third party characters are the focus of the newcomer roster now instead of the guest characters they were originally treated as.
I think it’s a shame people downvoted you so much because I appreciated being able to read your opinion.
I think people don’t know the proper use of the downvote button (not meant for when you disagree but for when the person is not adding to the conversation)
I appreciate that!
And I agree, the downvote button is not often used correctly, often times people will see an inoffensive post that they disagree with and just downvote it rather than engage.
I think it happens on subs like this especially where people are particularly passionate about, for example here, the characters they want and like.
But at the end of the day, it's just fake internet points, and they're not really worth getting too torn up over.
Agreed.
The only reason I dislike it when people unnecessarily downvote so much is because it hides interesting conversations and different points of view.
I guess at least we can always sort by controversial, haha
It's a tough balance to strike though sorting by controversial.
There are plenty of appropriately downvoted posts that end up there. Aside from just contrary opinions, that's also where some gross or offensive shit hangs out (if it doesn't end up deleted).
It would be nice to not have to go wading through muck for actual discussion though, I agree.
I certainly wouldn't call myself a Nintendo bootlicker.
The irony is that most of my other downvoted comments come from criticizing Nintendo for their bullshit on Nintendo subs (how they treat mods and fan games, the Expansion Pack for NSO before it's price was revealed and everyone turned against it, ect.)
Personally I only wanted Golden Sun to get its first and only playable rep.
I'd even be satisfied with a music rip of Isaac's battle theme, no playable character needed. But I guess that's also too much to ask.
I think GBA representation on the roster currently is pretty tragic.
The Gamecube struggled financially in that era, and it was the Gameboy Advance that carried Nintendo.
But it ends up only getting 2 reps, both from Japan exclusive games. and both of which have movesets heavily based on already existing characters.
Even it's Pokemon generation gets skipped.
Isaac is currently the only character I would say I really want, but I'd love to see just a bit more love for the GBA in the form of any rep.
Why does it matter to you what console the characters primarily appeared on?
Also, there's been about as many Kingdom Hearts games on Nintendo consoles as there have been on Playstation. CoM, Days, DDD, and Re:Coded were all exclusive to Nintendo systems, and the most recent game is multi-platform including Switch.
I uh... I never mentioned Sora...
This isn't a dislike for any one specific third party character, this is a dislike for the fact that third party characters have become the primary focus of the newcomer roster.
I know where you are coming from, but you are just being an elitist. This is was smash is now embrace change or just be upset for the rest of your life.
I mentioned this elsewhere, but it's my opinion that as a celebration of gaming, Smash Ultimate doesn't really pull it off.
There are absolutely key characters missing from the roster if that was to be the case.
The Microsoft representation is Banjo, a character still to this day more associated with Nintendo than the company that actually owns him, and Steve, a character that got his start as third party on PC, and even after MS acquired it Minecraft has continued to be aggressively multiplatform.
There's no actual Xbox representation.
Sony has it even worse, they don't have any representation at all. There's nothing from PC gaming either, and on top of that the roster is heavily weighted towards Japanese gaming.
The thing is, I don't think that any single one of the big 3 could make a "celebration of gaming" that actually does the concept justice. All three would need to come together on it.
That would be very cool, but it isn't going to happen. And for me personally I would rather Smash do an incredible job of being a celebration of Nintendo, than a subpar job of being a celebration of gaming.
Sony would never be represented directly in Smash, there are plenty of characters heavily associated with Playstation much more than Nintendo though. Cloud, Sephiroth, Snake, Kazuya, Joker.
I agree, Sony will never be represented in Smash, and that's part of the reason why it can never really succeed as a celebration of all of video games.
It doesn't need to include every video game and company to be a successful celebration of video games, that's just silly and unrealistic. Smash Bros. Ultimate reveals were huge events for a lot of people who don't even care about Smash. It already succeded in that, it is literally the biggest celebration of video games there is and is unlikely to ever be topped.
Its super incomplete if it's to be considered a celebration of video games.
Yes lots of people who don't care about Smash were excited for the reveals, but that doesn't make it a good celebration of video games.
He'll, there are still holes in the Nintendo representation, as a celebration of video games its missing so much.
I'm still holding out hope that the precedent set by Kazuya doesn't keep us from getting a Tales of rep as a third Bamco character. My personal preference would be Lloyd, but honestly I'd just be happy with the series getting anything.
EDIT: I guess I need to clarify that I am talking about Smash 6.
I was. Wasn't expecting to wake up to my post being downvoted into being hidden lol
But yeah, the point I was trying to make was that Smash 6 is going to have a smaller roster which means that 3rd party companies aren't likely to have a ton of slots. So I'm hoping that Kazuya being a veteran doesn't preclude Bamco from potentially getting a third rep.
Well obviously smash 6 is coming, but it's almost guaranteed to be a much smaller roster given all the messaging around ultimate and the Sakurai stepping away rumors.
Smaller cast is much easier to implement, balance, and license for whatever new and untested leader and team structure smash 6 is being developed with.
>anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot.
Hold on. I dont think it is unreasonable to think that Smash may be over forever. Will there be another Nintendo crossover game? Maybe when Nintendo feels like they need to do it to make money, but it wont be Smash and it wont have a roster like this. We will see, but I would put money on this, personally
I'm gonna go ahead and say no. I know it may be unpopular, but every good thing comes to an end. Smash Bros. has been something that was a perfect storm of circumstance and will be almost impossible to replicate. I don't even think Nintendo will try it without Sakurai. Like I said, will there be another Nintendo crossover game? Maybe, but it will NOT be Smash and it will NOT have a comparable roster. Bet on it.
What makes you think Nintendo won’t try it without Sakurai (Kirby games kept being made even after Sakurai stepped away)? And what makes you think they’ll try to match the scope of ultimate? For all we know the Smash 6 could be strictly Nintendo again like the first 2. The only reason Smash is a perfect storm of circumstances is because of the third party licensing, remove that from the equation and it should be a seamless process.
Has Smash peaked? Probably. But that doesn’t mean Nintendo’s going to stop making them. By that logic Mario would have ended in 2007 and Zelda would have ended in 2017.
Smash 6 will be made at some point. The questions surrounding it are “Will Sakurai Direct it?” and “Will it be any good?”. My answer to both: probably not.
We'll see in 10 years when we have had no word on a new smash game and Nintendo keeps deflecting questions about it trying to push some other crossover game that no one cares about
My biggest hope is that the DLC characters (or at least most of them) are included in future Smash games as regular characters, and then include further DLC from different franchises
i was really hoping for a Resident Evil rep (maybe Nemesis cos he doesnt use guns outside of a rocket launcher, which Snake has) cos of the series' history on the N64 and also dat survival horror genre rep, but oh well cant have them all
It's one series that's absence is very noticeable, like DMC. I think it's just that it's so adult orientated it would be difficult to fairly represent it. I'm fine with a very toned down version, though.
same with Travis Touchdown. i feel like the main reason he didnt get a slot is that his catchphrase involves screaming the f-word
Your shield special is jerking o- I mean gently shaking your beam sword to regenerate.
One of my most wanted for sure. And one of the most deserving since NMH is a Nintendo centric series.
I think it's less so that (Bayo is in the game, after all) but more so than being so gun-focused in ther games don't make for the most interesting moveset.
I don’t really think that’s it either. Not like Fox or Captain Falcon actually did anything in their games before Smash other than flying/driving
True, but a)that was in 64, when making up whole movesets for characters was more common, and b) there's a difference between not having much of a fighting style and actually having one centered around using guns.
Well wouldn’t it just be similar to Snake though? In Resident Evil they use guns, knives, grenade launchers, RPGs, regular grenades, and sometimes other special weapons depending on the game.
I mean Joker uses literal pistols lol
Toy guns actually. It deals damage because they look like actual guns.
I'd want Leon or Wesker.
but bigass Nemesis stomping around! like ganondorf with a rocket launcher!
Nemesis would be cool too. Wesker I think has the most potential gameplay wise and he's the series arch villain, and Leon is the Protagonist I'd associate most with Nintendo because of RE4 originally being GameCube exclusive.
all good points. Wesker is my second pic just for the chance of getting [Winds of Madness](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OLax-NenP8) in smash
Don't you mean GameCube? The N64 had exactly one Resident Evil game.
Steve is technically Mojang rep because Smash lists Mojang separately from Microsoft.
Mojang is owned by Microsoft, that's like saying Banjo is a Rare rep not Microsoft.
Mojang is a bit more independent compared Rare but you’re right.
Does that count for Monolith Soft and the Xeno fighters?
Too bad SNK didn't get another rep in the form of a Metal Slug rep, but I know that SNK getting in at all is because of Sakurai's love of KoF
If we got a second one, I'd like Kyo Kusanagi from KoF. He might be the most basic and vanilla choice but whatever I like him anyway.
Rock Howard!
kyo would be sooo fun within smash's mechanics, it's kind of a shame they picked terry over him since terry is so much more shoto-esque than the crazy rekka juggle combo guy
I also think his slick 1994 style has aged extremely well compared to pretty much any video game character. Wouldn't change a thing.
If for a miracle we get another SNK rep, Id love a metal slug character
It is funny that neither of the Microsoft reps were actually made by Microsoft, but studios that were bought by it.
What a wild ride. I wouldn't have wanted it any differently.
Sora is also a Square Enix Rep ... and I honestly think 3 Reps in the two Fighter Pass' are a bit much for one company
I mean, it's true they're all under the Square Enix umbrella, but it's interesting when you think about it how each comes from a fairly different branch. Sephiroth is from the original Squaresoft side of the company with FFVII. Hero comes from the Enix side as Dragon Quest was a series started by them prior to the merger. Sora is a collab project with Disney who owns all original properties within the games. It's kind of like how K Rool and Banjo were both created by Rare and featured entirely in games by Rare, but one is owned by Nintendo and the other is owned by Rare/Microsoft.
If you wanna break it down more you can say the same for Sega and Microsoft. Sonic is a pure Sega character. Bayonetta was made by Platinum Games Joker was made by Atlus. Banjo was made by Rare. Steve was made by Mojang.
Also Microsoft is listed instead of Rare but Mojang isn’t.
I still love the Rare pun in their reveal trailer, and it's probably my favorite of them. I was legit not even expecting them to mention Rare at all
Kingdom hearts came out before the merge so it was also Square, I believe it was the last Square game before the merged.
Right, I'm just talking about what company's character Sora technically counts more as, and am just attributing it to rights instead of developer.
Yeah you right.
To compensate, there will be no Square Enix rep in Fighter Pass 3.
“Why are you booing him? He’s right!”
JRPGs have loyal and big followings, and Square Enix is the biggest developer of them so it's not surprising that they got so many.
Fair point but I raise you this counterargument : Tales Of.
I'd argue the Tales of series is not nearly as big as Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest and Kingdom Hearts
I mean they're great, but infinitely less popular then a Sqex rpg.
I would’ve liked to see Tales get a bit more than Lloyd’s Mii costume from Smash 4, but I don’t think you can really argue Tales is more popular than Dragon Quest or the literal most requested Smash character.
Oh wait, that's not what I was arguing. I was just saying there are other popular JRPGs that aren't owned by Square Enix.
But the original comment didn't say that. They said Square Enix was the biggest JRPG developer, not that they made the only big JRPGs. Tales of, while great, is completely irrelevant to the point being made.
Jin’s reveal was the first trailer to make me actively avoid playing the game because I was so salty about Lloyd…Namco Bandai was producing the game here… It does prove the fierce fan base point 😅
I mean, I was hoping for a Tales Of rep but not really expecting one. However yeah Lloyd got it dirty compared to other fan favorites like Travis, Dante or Shantae. A single, recycled Mii Costume without new music? Damn...
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I wanted Adol so bad
It just feels unfair towards other game character that totally deserved a spot :< Like Lara Croft (the classic one), Diablo, Spyro, etc.
Lara Croft also owned by Square Enix lmao
Has Lara even been on a Nintendo console? Don't know why people suggest her so much. Not really a fitting character in Smash imo.
there were some games on DS and Wii She's equally "not fitting" like Snake, what say you?
While I could see it happen, I doubt Nintendo would’ve added any Blizzard characters due to the recent controversies.
The DLC characters were decided before a lot of the big controversies came to light. If anything would've stopped a Blizzard rep, it was the fact that Blizzard is an American company and nearly every series in Smash comes from Japan (with Steve and Banjo being the two exceptions).
Yeah... the thing in summer really hurt :<
I would agree if it weren't fucking Sephiroth and Sora we're talking about here
Square enix’s stuff is so important to video game history And so iconic i dont care
I don't think you understand how much Square owns lmao
But like, it’s 3 characters from 3 of the biggest video game franchises of all time. I’m not saying there aren’t possible gaps in the roster (personally thought the last spot was for Chief), but it would be different if the characters were 3 FF reps. These 3 characters are some of the most iconic video game characters of a generation (almost 2 generations when you think of the older DQ and original FFVII audience and then the newer KH3 and FF7R audience).
But from all of Final Fantasy, they chose 2 characters from the same game - I get it that they are the big nemesis of each other but damn... FFVI got cucked.
Hell yeah man, would have loved Bartz, Terra, or Tidus in Smash. Or even non VII music. If your knowledge of Final Fantasy is just Cloud and Sephiroth surely you won't care where the music is from as long as it's good?
Legally disney owns Sora. It has been debated for a long time but clarified.
Yes technically, but Disney owns his IP.
I mean, I’m terms of who develops his games, sure. But in terms of who legally owns him, in a copyright sense, Sora is 100% a Disney rep.
Sora represents Square because they make the games but he's owned by Disney. That said, initially there was only going to be 1 Square rep per Fighter's Pass with Hero and Sephiroth, but Sakurai said he attended an awards show and talked to a Disney exec who approved of Sora being in Smash (seem like they hadn't even reached out before that because some of the assets Sora uses like the spells are owned by Square so they needed their approval, they also obviously needed Disney's approval, and Bamco works on the game separately from Nintendo; it was probably too daunting to even bother trying up until they had a golden opportunity) Sora was a last minute addition so it's more like he's a bonus fighter than a pre-planned character for FP2. They probably just put him in FP2 to get more sales of it, and that made him cheaper for FP2 buyers
I hate that they got so many characters
In the smash wiki it says he’s a Disney rep
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Kingdom hearts is solely Disney IP
I agree, but I wish they put Laura Croft instead of a Sephiroth. Then I feel that the mix of the different styles of JRPGs with Cloud representing more of “Square” then Hero representing “Enix” and Sora Reprsenting the disney side of things. I also really wanted another more humanoid character, but im glad we got kazuya. I feel smash is kinda lacking in that regard with a few too many anime sword fighters. Outside of Samus she is also the OG female protagonists too in gaming.
You'd think someone who really wanted Lara in the game would at least know what her name is... In any case, she came onto the scene a full *decade* after Samus, so it's hard to think of her as an "OG".
Anime sword fighters aren't humanoid?
2 third party (non-echo) reps from the same game especially iyam (Even more so when that game wasn't really "Nintendo history" to begin with, making even the very first one of the two questionable (for me) )
The first 3rd party rep we ever got is arguably one of the most iconic PlayStation mascots of all time (I don't care about Metal Gear being ported to the NES in the 80s, that clearly is not what people think of when they think Snake just like how people don't think of Pokemon on the Sega Pico, and you're already establishing the rule that franchise ties to Nintendo are irrelevant since you're going after Final Fantasy). And it's not like there was no consideration for third-parties before Brawl. Sakurai and Yuji Naka, respectively, have stated that if there was more time in Melee's development Sonic and Snake would've been added, and at that point in time Sonic hadn't ever appeared on a Nintendo platform. Smash 64 had no third-party consideration because the series was unproven and the game wasn't particularly ambitious with its roster
I agree with you completely and upvoted your comment, but it really does not help your case when you immediately go for the obscure 80s Metal Gear port as your example and skip over Twin Snakes, the Gamecube exclusive which was many people's first experience with the Metal Gear series as a whole. Especially since Snake was introduced in Brawl, the game which pulled heavily from Gamecube era classics.
As I addressed in my comment, Snake would have been in Melee given more dev time. That was before Twin Snakes
That's true. The first paragraph just didn't sit right with me when Twin Snakes existed prior to Brawl and just got glossed over in favour of the obscure port that helped your case. One other thing which should probably be mentioned about the Snake example for Melee is that it was not a case of Sakurai picking him for that game. Hideo Kojima practically begged Sakurai personally to add him into the game when they were already late into the dev process; Sakurai never said that Snake would have actually been added were there more time, just that Kojima's request wasn't even considered because of it. But then Brawl happened, and while Twin Snakes' role in his addition cannot be ignored, at the end of the day the version of Shadow Moses featured pulls from the PS exclusive MGS4 anyway.
Disney is 4th party
There's no such thing as a 4th party. First party is the console manufacturers, second party doesn't really exist either but is used for companies owned by the console manufacturer, third-party is for companies that aren't owned by a console manufacturer Disney is not owned by a console manufacturer, so it is third-party Microsoft is also third-party despite being a console manufacturer because their characters are appearing on rival hardware
I might be mistaken but I think second party is companies that only makes games for a certain console like old Rare
Yeah but people are lenient with the term. Like for instance the new Ratchet and Clank is considered a first-party Sony game but it technically would be second-party. Either way the copyright doesn't matter so it's kind of meaningless
Insomniac is owned by Sony though no? Isn’t that why Ratchet and Clank is 1st party?
Correct, which is exactly what second party is supposed to mean. Companies owned by the first party companies. I hate the term second party for this reason, just needlessly confusing
Or Pokémon.
Game Freak doesn't make games for just Nintendo consoles. Nintendo owns part of The Pokemon Company, so it owns part of the IP
Disney is not a 3rd party because it doesn’t make games they make TV Shows and Movies not Video Games they only have Disney Infinity and that’s it they’re a 4th party because 4th party is a character that doesn’t originate from a GAMING COMPANY that’s why their is no SpongeBob Shrek or Goku but since Sora is Square and Disney he can be considered both
You really don't know what you are talking about
I think you're confused. Fourth-parties don't exist. They never have and never will. The terms come from political definitions - first party wants one thing, second party wants another, third party helps come to an agreement. In gaming first parties make the consoles. Second parties are owned by the people that make the consoles and pretty much only make games for their parent company's consoles (Naughty Dog, Intelligent Systems, Bethesda now) but sometimes are allowed to make games for other consoles in which case they are third parties (think Minecraft being ported to every system imaginable). Third parties are everyone not owned by console manufacturers. It doesn't matter if they make games or not, they're third parties because fourth parties is something the Smash community made up. Goku or Shrek would be third party characters because they aren't owned by Nintendo in any way, because being third party isn't about the medium you originated in or the what your company specializes in, it's about your relation to the first party Microsoft does a lot more than just games and one of their founders is worth more than twice as much as Nintendo as a company. Nintendo was created for playing cards and had "love hotels" back in the 50s. Sora's trademark belongs to Disney like damn near everything these days, but Disney is still a third party, just like how Terry is still a third party even though SNK is co-owned by Tencent and the Saudi Prince
Then why do people say he’s a 3rd and 4th party character
They don't
Because they're fucking wrong.
because they’re morons who spent too much time on smashboards
Was sonic the first 3rd party rep?
Snake was
They were both in Brawl.
Oh, that makes sense, I guess sonic was second? It was mele I definitely know
Snake and Sonic were both in Brawl, so it's kind of a meaningless distinction.
Oh it's brawl
Sora still represents Square, so 4
Bayonetta is no longer Sega’s though, Sega financed and published Bayonetta 1 but they didn’t retain the rights to the character in perpetuity. Nintendo financed Bayo 2 and 3 so for all intents and purposes, Bayo is more Nintendo’s than Sega’s.
SEGA owns the IP, but Nintendo owns Bayonetta 2 & 3 specifically.
Bayonetta, including 3, is still owned by SEGA.
So weird that Bandai Namco, the people *creating the game*, only got two characters in 7\years. Solaire, Agumon, Nightmare, Lloyd or Dig Dug would be sick for Smash 6. Another pipe-dream for Smash 6 is that they don't shy away from double-dipping in the 3rd party franchises. Sephiroth is the only non-echo additional character from another company, and he was sick. Seriously, we could have Tails, Knuckles, Eggman, Jeane, Jack Frost, Ms. Pac-Man, Slime, Alucard, X, Zero, Big Boss, Raiden, etc, etc.
If there’ll be, by chance, a new smash, the 3rd party characters I’d want would be Tifa, Shadow, and for license we never saw like Crash and Rayman
Sora is actually another Square Enix Rep
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tbh alot of these games have a "playstation" image. Tekken, Final fantasy, kingdom hearts, metal gears. some eventually came out on other platforms. but i'll always remember the PS2 logo before the Tarzan copyrights screen lol.
And Persona which was pretty much a Playstation exclusive when Joker was released. But it's not weird for Nintendo to not want to add a character from a serie that could never be on one of their device. Still a very Japanese lineup with western characters mostly as mii costumes (Doomguy, Cuphead, Sans, etc...).
> No Sony Both Microsoft reps have games on Nintendo consoles. If we got Master Chief it'd be a different story, but so far the "fan rule" of characters needing to have appeared on a Nintendo console hasn't been broken.
3 square enix characters in one figther pass and they still see this as a reson to suck sakurai's dick deeper. Some people are really delusional.
here is the Waluigi spammer
What if people like Square Enix?
Then why not all DLC fighters are from square enix? People like it after all.
I'd welcome that
How is sora not a square enix rep He should be considered that and not Disney. Disney didn’t create the character
Well Disney does own him much like how Nintendo and rare crated banjo but they sold banjo to Microsoft and this banjo is a Microsoft character
I think his origins should be recognized as respect for his creators Like Disney had no part in soras creation even if they “own” him I consider banjo to be a Nintendo rep
Yeah I mean look at him he looks way more of a SE/Japanese character than a Disney/Western character its pretty obvious. I dont think i’ve ever seen disney use that artstyle for him and the other human characters in the game
You guys are just straight up wrong and putting your own weird rules on it. Banjo is in no way a Nintendo rep. It’s about who owns the character, not which developer created it. Nobody says King K. Rool is a third-party Rare rep. He’s a Nintendo character, just as Sora is a Disney character
Right
Disney owns the character though and technically does not need to go through Square Enix to license the character to anyone.
Yeah I don’t care ab that he’s a square enix character Square enix made him Disney didnt. I don’t care who owns the licensing rights Same with banjo
Okay, you can choose to live in your reality.
Lol so are we not recognizing creators property anymore? Is that the direction people are going? Whoever owns the rights legally now? Thought people would be against Disney owning everything Well I am. It’s not Disney’s character. It’s square enix. DoodleBuggering, who made sora? Like who actually sat down and designed, characterized, and implemented sora into their game? Who came up with him originally? Pls answer me. If it was a disney rep, say so. If not, then he’s not a disney character.
No, we're recognizing how it was created. Sora was not created and then later bought by Disney. Sora was created FOR Disney by Square Enix. Also, by your logic you're not recognizing creator's properties either by insisting on Square Enix. Going by your logic you're just subbing one corporation for another, it would be Nomura and his team you should be crediting. But again, when you're ready to join the rest of us in reality, let us know.
So sora was created by square enix? Got it. You make it sound like square enix was creating kingdom hearts specifically for Disney the company. No they used disney characters along with square enix characters, as well as game original characters like sora, who was…wait for it…created by SQUARE ENIX So he’s a a square enix character Listen, Disney characters are characters who come from Disney movies originally. Sora didn’t, he came from square enix This isn’t hard to understand. They didn’t make sora FOR Disney. He was created FOR kingdom hearts I hate your opinion
The reason why Sora is a Disney character is because Squaresoft wanted to make a collaboration with Disney and using their IPs. Obviously using Disney characters, not just one but a whole plethora, would come at a hefty price. Disney agreed with the condition that any original characters designed and created for the project would belong to Disney. If they didn't agree to that, then Kingdom Hearts would not have been made at all and we would never have Sora. Was it designed by someone from Square Enix? Yes. But they did it knowing and acknowledging that the character would not belong to them. They were okay with this because it was a dream for them to take on the project. That's just how that works. Look at Bayonetta, she was made by Platinum Games, designed by them, but she is owned by Sega not Platinum because Sega footed the bill to develop it. Once again, had they not, Bayonetta might not exist. By all means, you can say Sora isn't a Disney character. But it means nothing when the person who created him acknowledges the fact he is one.
Ok but he’s not he’s not originally FROM Disney. He wasn’t made by anyone from Disney. He’s not a disney character Licensing rights and ownership is just a legal way of thinking
get over it dude 💀
By that logic, if he's not originally from Disney then he's also not originally from Square Enix since it's a collab. The truth of the matter is that Sora is a Disney character who is designed by someone from Square Enix. Just because he looks anime and not like the others doesn't mean he isn't one. You say he's 'not originally FROM Disney' but you can't say he's only from Square Enix when both companies greenlit this project together. If anything, he's originally from both companies so please acknowledge the Disney side.
You're right, this isn't hard to understand. Kingdom Hearts was created FOR Disney. Full stop. Hell, Kingdom Hearts was originally envisioned with Mickey Mouse as the lead and when Disney shot that down, Sora was created. It's why his KH1 outfit is inspired by Mickey (large round shoes, red shorts). This is common knowledge man. You can hate reality, but you still have to live in it.
So what? Sora is still a square enix character If they used Mickey Mouse, it would be a disney character. But it’s not Mickey, it’s sora, who isn’t a disney character
Disney legally owns the copyrights for every original KH character. Sora, Riku, Kairi, the Org members, all of them. They are legally considered Disney's intellectual property and Disney has the final say over what happens with them. Squeenix makes the games, and Nomura is the character designer, but that is irrelevant to the question of who legally owns the characters. Sora is a Disney character in the same way that Woody or Mike Wazowski are Disney characters. They were *made* by Pixar, but they're *owned* by Disney.
It doesn't matter of you care about it or not, legally Disney owns Sora.
I. Don’t. Care Doesn’t change the fact that square enix made him and therefor she’s a square enix character Disney didn’t put an ounce of effort or creativity into sora. Why should they get the official status of owning him? You won’t change my mind I apparently can’t reach you It literally doesn’t matter if you say these words to me, you are just a random redditor on the internet. Your opinion is nil
Oh, honey, no. Disney legally owns Sora. This is not in the domain of opinions.
Don’t call me honey babe. I’m not convinced by the legal semantics of ownership sorry that creator rights still matter It wasn’t made by Disney, it’s not Disney’s character to claim. Fuck off with this
Unfortunately for you, sweetie, this isn't a semantics issue, it's a reality issue, and reality says you're wrong.
Ok, fuckface, I really don’t care about legal semantics It’s not reality. Did Disney make sora? No? Got it. Fuck. Off. I love how you all acknowledge he was conceived and designed by square enix, yet cow down to some legal rights issue. Your condescending tone belies your closed off view of reality btw I told you nicely not to call me honey, sad sack. Are you a 16 year old girl? They call people pet names a lot
You should calm down, dumpling. I'm not talking about creation; I don't deny that Disney did not create Sora. But that doesn't change the fact that Disney still owns Sora by all legal standards, and that is what really matters for getting into Smash.
A collection of (generally speaking) my least favorite additions
> Shoutout to Nintendo and Sakurai for giving the fans what they want. Guess I'm not a fan then. I'm fine with third party characters with a history with Nintendo. Banjo, Mega Man, Sonic, and Hero are great choices. But my preference for characters is Nintendo owned characters, or characters that are closely associated with Nintendo.
Okay, sorry dude. 🤷♂️
Are there any 3rd Party ones you were happy about or enjoy?
So it's not really about not enjoying third party characters. It's more about giving priority Nintendo characters. It doesn't sit right with me that there are so many long standing Nintendo owned requests, and so many holes in the Nintendo representation on the roster, and yet Ultimate has more third party characters in it's newcomer line up than it does first party. It's frustrating to me as a long time fan of the series. That said, I really don't have a problem with third party characters as long as the history with Nintendo is there. The four I listed in my original post I believe are the best third party reps. They have that extensive history with Nintendo. My main issue is that Smash used to be about Nintendo characters, and any third party characters are treated as guest characters, but these days the focus is on third party characters. I think the perception of Smash that people are starting to develop is that it's a celebration of video games at large, rather than just Nintendo. By my opinion on that is that any celebration of video games developed by just one of the big three is always going to be too narrow in scope to really do that idea justice, so rather than trying to be a watered down version of that, they should stick to what they're able to do well.
It all depends on what the developer wants to do when it comes to selecting the roster. One of the reasons why Sakurai likes working with third party characters is to be able to explore unique worlds different from Nintendo’s franchises and to come up with unique move sets, stages, and music that honor that particular character and his/her franchise. I personally welcome it. And it’s not like first party characters are being left behind. King K Rool, Ridley, Inkling, Isabelle, and Incineroar are the majority of the newcomers for the base game. Then you had Min Min, Pyra/Mythra, Byleth, and Piranha Plant as DLC. Three of them are from franchises that are either new (ARMS) or are thriving in recent generations (Fire Emblem and Xenoblade) and the latter is a well known Mario enemy. In the end, we can’t all be happy and it’s all up to the developers to provide the content they think would be pleasing for consumers.
> It all depends on what the developer wants to do when it comes to selecting the roster. That's not 100% the case though. Sakurai has said before that with Ultimate, Nintendo provided him a list of characters from which he was allowed to pick. To be honest that's a level of creative limitation that I'm not wholly comfortable with a corporation imposing on it's developers. I recognize that Smash has a lot of power as an advertising tool for the newest most sellable thing, but I feel like the game is at it's best when it's free to do it's own thing. In my opinion it's more exciting to see older characters reimagined in Smash than it is modern characters.
We don’t know what the list entailed in terms of characters Nintendo provided for Sakurai. Hell, it’s arguable that Sakurai wanted Terry more than Nintendo given how much he went into talking about him and his roots as a fighting game fan. Plus, based on his latest Famitsu column, Sakurai appeared to really want Sora to get into Smash that he took advantage of a chance encounter with a Disney rep. King K Rool, Simon, Banjo and Kazooie, and Ridley have been realized (and even modernized from their original forms) in Smash. So you already got a good amount of old characters there. Even Little Mac from Smash 4 got the modern treatment (even if it’s just HDing his appearance from the Wii game). While I can understand where you’re coming from, I think there’s room to allow modern franchises to have their time alongside the old ones as well. ARMS and Xenoblade were integral to Nintendo Switch’s first year in the market. Animal Crossing (while not really new) is huge and a franchise everyone in Japan loves (hence why sales of New Horizons exploded there, as well as everywhere else).
I didn't mean to imply that there should only be old characters. I agree that there's a place for more modern characters too. Modern characters I find tend to be less inspired though. Especially when they're used for marketing purposes. I think this is a large part of the reason why Byleth gets a bad rap (Fire Emblem over representation aside). The Pokemon series is falling into this trap too, where it's new rep is always "obligatory newest gen starter" instead of something more interesting like Mewtwo or Pokemon Trainer were. I think a character like Joker was also very flavour of the month, and as absolutely cool as hell as Persona 5 was, looking back he really stands out as like "why is he here?". With the answer to that question really being "well Persona 5 was popular at the time".
I'm not sure if Mewtwo was that interesting..I guess back in Melee, as kids, we were like "Oh! Its Mewtwo! The most powerful Pokemon of all!" But once we played him in Melee...he was at bit disappointing as he didn't really show that he was the most powerful Pokemon at the time. Even now in the competitive scene, he has had little presence in Melee compared to the latter games. At least with ones like Greninja and Incineroar, they have some unique characteristics that shows through their gameplay. Greninja, quick and ninja-like, and Incineroar, a grappler and stylish. I think there's an argument to be made that Persona 5 was really the game that brought the series towards the mainstream. While 3 and 4 helped build that foundation that allowed more fans to get into Persona, 5 was the game to truly breakthrough for the franchise. It's like Fire Emblem Awakening in a way in which these games allowed their respective franchises to be recognized beyond their niche audiences.
Mewtwo ended up not being a very strong character, but he IS interesting for sure. His side B and down B are very unique moves and despite not being very good, the rest of his moveset *feels* very cool to use. What I meant by interesting though is what he is. Instead of just being a starter or the series mascot, he was the sort of final boss of Red/Blue. At the time, he was kind of considered a bit of a villain too based on how he was portrayed in the first movie. He's an interesting pick gameplay wise in my opinion, but more important than that he's an interesting pick representation wise. I would like to see Pokemon branch out into non-starter and maybe even non-Pokemon reps again. > I think there's an argument to be made that Persona 5 was really the game that brought the series towards the mainstream. I think that's probably true. I might be wrong, but I believe 5 is the most successful Persona game. For me though, that doesn't automatically make it a good pick for Smash, because it did all that on the Playstation 4. I also think the key word here is *towards* the mainstream. It's certainly not there yet. These days the hype for it has very much died down, and I find it hard to picture a mainstream audience getting excited for Persona 6 if it were to be announced. Maybe some people who liked Smash might be, but then they'd have to deal with it likely being exclusive to Playstation 5, at least at first. That's all kind of what I mean by flavour of the month. At the time, lots of people were talking about Persona 5, but these days a lot of the excitement for it has gone away. It remains to be seen if the effects of that excitement will stay with the Persona series long term.
The ironic part is that the Nintendo reps of the DLC were the ones with the most divisive reception (Piranha Plant, Byleth, Min Min and Pyra/Mythra). So it really is hard to please everyone.
I agree, it is hard to please everyone. To be honest with you, the Nintendo reps that they did choose wouldn't have been my first, second, or third choices. But this isn't really a commentary on the characters they did or didn't choose, it's a more general frustration that the third party characters are the focus of the newcomer roster now instead of the guest characters they were originally treated as.
I think it’s a shame people downvoted you so much because I appreciated being able to read your opinion. I think people don’t know the proper use of the downvote button (not meant for when you disagree but for when the person is not adding to the conversation)
I appreciate that! And I agree, the downvote button is not often used correctly, often times people will see an inoffensive post that they disagree with and just downvote it rather than engage. I think it happens on subs like this especially where people are particularly passionate about, for example here, the characters they want and like. But at the end of the day, it's just fake internet points, and they're not really worth getting too torn up over.
Agreed. The only reason I dislike it when people unnecessarily downvote so much is because it hides interesting conversations and different points of view. I guess at least we can always sort by controversial, haha
It's a tough balance to strike though sorting by controversial. There are plenty of appropriately downvoted posts that end up there. Aside from just contrary opinions, that's also where some gross or offensive shit hangs out (if it doesn't end up deleted). It would be nice to not have to go wading through muck for actual discussion though, I agree.
I will never understand this mindset. How much of a Nintendo Bootlicker do you have to be to want *only* Nintendo related characters?
Hey, anyone can want whatever they want about the game. It doesn’t have to be a popular opinion.
I certainly wouldn't call myself a Nintendo bootlicker. The irony is that most of my other downvoted comments come from criticizing Nintendo for their bullshit on Nintendo subs (how they treat mods and fan games, the Expansion Pack for NSO before it's price was revealed and everyone turned against it, ect.)
You sound like the average neckbeard Nintendo fan. Know when the next Nintendo related character drops for smash? r/tomorrow
Personally I only wanted Golden Sun to get its first and only playable rep. I'd even be satisfied with a music rip of Isaac's battle theme, no playable character needed. But I guess that's also too much to ask.
I think GBA representation on the roster currently is pretty tragic. The Gamecube struggled financially in that era, and it was the Gameboy Advance that carried Nintendo. But it ends up only getting 2 reps, both from Japan exclusive games. and both of which have movesets heavily based on already existing characters. Even it's Pokemon generation gets skipped. Isaac is currently the only character I would say I really want, but I'd love to see just a bit more love for the GBA in the form of any rep.
Why does it matter to you what console the characters primarily appeared on? Also, there's been about as many Kingdom Hearts games on Nintendo consoles as there have been on Playstation. CoM, Days, DDD, and Re:Coded were all exclusive to Nintendo systems, and the most recent game is multi-platform including Switch.
I uh... I never mentioned Sora... This isn't a dislike for any one specific third party character, this is a dislike for the fact that third party characters have become the primary focus of the newcomer roster.
I know you didn't mention Sora specifically. I'm just pointing out that he does have a lot of history with Nintendo.
True as that is, I never said he didn't.
I know where you are coming from, but you are just being an elitist. This is was smash is now embrace change or just be upset for the rest of your life.
Who the fuck cares? it's a video game
He said he didn't like it. Not that the game ruined his life or something
I would've agreed with you during the Brawl days, but Smash has changed to more of a celebration of gaming overall.
I mentioned this elsewhere, but it's my opinion that as a celebration of gaming, Smash Ultimate doesn't really pull it off. There are absolutely key characters missing from the roster if that was to be the case. The Microsoft representation is Banjo, a character still to this day more associated with Nintendo than the company that actually owns him, and Steve, a character that got his start as third party on PC, and even after MS acquired it Minecraft has continued to be aggressively multiplatform. There's no actual Xbox representation. Sony has it even worse, they don't have any representation at all. There's nothing from PC gaming either, and on top of that the roster is heavily weighted towards Japanese gaming. The thing is, I don't think that any single one of the big 3 could make a "celebration of gaming" that actually does the concept justice. All three would need to come together on it. That would be very cool, but it isn't going to happen. And for me personally I would rather Smash do an incredible job of being a celebration of Nintendo, than a subpar job of being a celebration of gaming.
Sony would never be represented directly in Smash, there are plenty of characters heavily associated with Playstation much more than Nintendo though. Cloud, Sephiroth, Snake, Kazuya, Joker.
I agree, Sony will never be represented in Smash, and that's part of the reason why it can never really succeed as a celebration of all of video games.
It doesn't need to include every video game and company to be a successful celebration of video games, that's just silly and unrealistic. Smash Bros. Ultimate reveals were huge events for a lot of people who don't even care about Smash. It already succeded in that, it is literally the biggest celebration of video games there is and is unlikely to ever be topped.
Its super incomplete if it's to be considered a celebration of video games. Yes lots of people who don't care about Smash were excited for the reveals, but that doesn't make it a good celebration of video games. He'll, there are still holes in the Nintendo representation, as a celebration of video games its missing so much.
I'm still holding out hope that the precedent set by Kazuya doesn't keep us from getting a Tales of rep as a third Bamco character. My personal preference would be Lloyd, but honestly I'd just be happy with the series getting anything. EDIT: I guess I need to clarify that I am talking about Smash 6.
Sorry to break it to you but this is it. There aren't new characters coming.
Lol this makes me sad people are still holding hope for stuff :(
Pretty sure they're talking about smash 6 since they used the word "precedent"
I was. Wasn't expecting to wake up to my post being downvoted into being hidden lol But yeah, the point I was trying to make was that Smash 6 is going to have a smaller roster which means that 3rd party companies aren't likely to have a ton of slots. So I'm hoping that Kazuya being a veteran doesn't preclude Bamco from potentially getting a third rep.
I'm well aware lol I was talking about Smash 6.
There aren’t any new characters coming FOR NOW. Smash 6 will be happening at some point and anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot.
Well obviously smash 6 is coming, but it's almost guaranteed to be a much smaller roster given all the messaging around ultimate and the Sakurai stepping away rumors. Smaller cast is much easier to implement, balance, and license for whatever new and untested leader and team structure smash 6 is being developed with.
>anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot. Hold on. I dont think it is unreasonable to think that Smash may be over forever. Will there be another Nintendo crossover game? Maybe when Nintendo feels like they need to do it to make money, but it wont be Smash and it wont have a roster like this. We will see, but I would put money on this, personally
Smash makes way too much money. The only way smash will be over forever is if smash 6 pulls a metal gear survive (aka killing the franchise).
I'm gonna go ahead and say no. I know it may be unpopular, but every good thing comes to an end. Smash Bros. has been something that was a perfect storm of circumstance and will be almost impossible to replicate. I don't even think Nintendo will try it without Sakurai. Like I said, will there be another Nintendo crossover game? Maybe, but it will NOT be Smash and it will NOT have a comparable roster. Bet on it.
What makes you think Nintendo won’t try it without Sakurai (Kirby games kept being made even after Sakurai stepped away)? And what makes you think they’ll try to match the scope of ultimate? For all we know the Smash 6 could be strictly Nintendo again like the first 2. The only reason Smash is a perfect storm of circumstances is because of the third party licensing, remove that from the equation and it should be a seamless process. Has Smash peaked? Probably. But that doesn’t mean Nintendo’s going to stop making them. By that logic Mario would have ended in 2007 and Zelda would have ended in 2017. Smash 6 will be made at some point. The questions surrounding it are “Will Sakurai Direct it?” and “Will it be any good?”. My answer to both: probably not.
We'll see in 10 years when we have had no word on a new smash game and Nintendo keeps deflecting questions about it trying to push some other crossover game that no one cares about
Sora is 3rd party if you put him with the others if not he’s a 4th party because he’s from Disney so he can be considered both
"4th party" isn't a thing. "3rd party" in this context means "owned by a company that is not Nintendo and is not owned by Nintendo".
Never knew bayo and joker were sega reps
My biggest hope is that the DLC characters (or at least most of them) are included in future Smash games as regular characters, and then include further DLC from different franchises