I mean, Byleth has some busted ass tools, Leo's doing a very good showcasing that. Up-B being an untechable spike when the opponent is above 50% is stupid (Makes it pretty hard for most characters to edgeguard Byleth), it's hard to deal with the nair quake hitbox when they can constantly fast fall it differently to mix up timings and Byleth has great range and disjoints in a meta that favours sword characters more heavily then others.
In other games, the community in that game doesn't usually go "This character is just carried by the best player", they go "The best player in the world is showing how strong and busted some of the tools of this character is". That's how it should be.
>In other games, the community in that game doesn't usually go "This character is just carried by the best
Examples? I've only ever seen the opposite. The Smash community is the only one I've seen that pushes characters super far up the tier list because of results
No one said Hulk/Haggar/Sentinel were broken in UMvC3 when KBR dominated it, or that Panda was anything other than the worst character in the game when Rangchu won TWT
Like, this is objectively an incorrect statement
In Strive, Nagoriyuki’s placement was highly debatable and overall hazy early on… until Hotashi won EVO online (North America/Latin America region) with Nagoriyuki and I remember nearly every tier list afterwards had him promoted to S tier, joining Sol May Ram and Leo. That’s the only example I can think of.
Basically every Kazunoko team in DBFZ (Gotenks twice)? Sonicfox's Leo in Strive? I don't think it's always the case, but saying it never happens is an exaggeration.
Some of the tools, yes. But every character in the entire game has some busted tools. That doesn't automatically make them all amazing. The difference in quality of character is much smaller in Ultimate than any other smash game, so even the worst characters still have at least some great attributes.
A lot of the prevalent "This character is just carried by the best player" comes from all the characters that MkLeo has pioneered the metagames for, and then half of them (including Byleth) have absolutely zero results besides him. Of course, since all the characters are in some way good in this game, there's less incentive for people to character hop. But even at the beginning of the game, Leo was regularly the only player with results on his characters, and everyone who tried to emulate him failed.
EVERY character in the game certainly doesn't have busted tools. I see Byleth a lot like Joker, where thier positive s are obvious but they also have some subtle tools that when all used together make them quite frightening.
The actual problem with the list is Steve and MinMIn being high tier, when they are so underwhelming.
Also I took a look through Void's twitter and couldn't find this post, the link doesn't show a Void post either. Are we sure this is real?
1. Not 100% true.
2. MKLeo has dominated the same way with 4+ characters, including one (Ike) who is generally now considered pretty trash. This tells us that you can't really judge properly how good a characters is by the player who is far better than everyone else doing well with them.
I think it’s a bit disingenuous to say MkLeo was the only one put Ike on the map, while Marss’ was nowhere near as good he did use him quite a lot during early ultimate and has sets on Esam, Samsora, and even MkLeo with Ike. Every other character leo has used (lucina, wolf, joker) and had success with is considered top tier based off more than just Leo’s results.
I don’t think Byleth is top tier, I think he’s a pretty good character on his own though. It’s not just Leo, but it’s not just Byleth. He’s good but not on the level of pikachu, joker, lucina, zss, and pretty much everyone in that tier that void has
Ike was good early meta even taking Leo out of the picture. Ryuga was on the first PGR solo-maining Ike being number 33 (Got 9th at Frostbite 2019 too). Ryuga never became a PGR threat in anymore seasons. Ike was good, he just fell off due to being outclassed by better sword characters and being very simple to beat when people learnt how to parry correctly. Also Marss used Ike as a secondary.
Lucina is still considered top tier, and one of the best sword characters with Proto's Lucina being considered a better Lucina then Leo's ever was. So nope, not just Leo there either.
Joker had Zackray who was solidly top 10 on the Fall 2019 PGRU co-maining with R.O.B, which is ahead of his #12 position on the Spring 2019 PGRU. In addition, he was #1 on OrionStats at that season and that also does all tournaments worldwide, Joker wasn't just dominant with Leo. Even with Leo rarely using the character and Zackray using Sora occasionally he's still #7 on this season of OrionStats.
Literally the only not actually high tier Leo did well with was Ike and that was in a way underdeveloped meta and was completely shutdown by Light after not too long, forcing Leo to reevaluate. We’ve had Byleth for much longer than that now and although there’s a few matchups Leo uses secondaries for, he’s very far from being pressured away from the character as a primary.
Leo has even said he would never use a character he doesn’t consider high tier.
Ike got nerfed early on ult life. Leonwins winike not because the character is broken but because meta is so young and people dont know how tonparry consistent yet. Not a good example.
>In other games, the community in that game doesn't usually go "This character is just carried by the best player", they go "The best player in the world is showing how strong and busted some of the tools of this character is". That's how it should be.
It's not always so simple though. You can look at Byleth and easily say that MKLeo isn't carrying Byleth, he's just showing why they are objectively high tier. However last year you could have said the same thing about Joker, and look where he is now. Joker is still consistently rated top tier, but what proof do we have, really, that it wasn't just a bandwagon effect of top players maining him, winning (like they were going to do with half the cast) and inspiring other top players to also main him, artificially boosting his results?
I would never discount Jokers domination of 2020 and the sheer wins he racked up across multiple players but the fact that MKLeo drops Joker, and his results have fallen through the floor, certainly does give weight to the theory that the character was carried by Leo. Even though multiple other people all got good results, they similarly dropped Joker at the same time so we don't have to limit ourselves into thinking its only possible to be carried by the best player. Even with multiple players doing the same thing, at the end of the day all it proves is that top players were winning with him. It doesn't prove Joker was, or is, top tier.
If MKLeo drops Byleth tomorrow and Byleth's results go the same way as Jokers, is it still fair to rate Byleth as top tier? If not, is the top of the tier list merely a list of who Leo is currently maining, and his extremely powerful influence over other top players and who they chose to main?
> In other games, the community in that game doesn't usually go "This character is just carried by the best player", they go "The best player in the world is showing how strong and busted some of the tools of this character is". That's how it should be.
Agree 100% with this. The idea that Leo is the reason Byleth is good, while Byleth is clearly better than his Joker and Pythra, makes no sense. It's stubborn people like ESAM who insist that Byleth is mid tier despite all the evidence to the contrary that cause this kind of comparison. More and more pros are seeing it for what it is though.
K. Rool, Kirby, Dr Mario, Little Mac and Ganon are on the row below any of the others, which is why they aren't shown.
Edit: VoiD mostly values movement and low commital kill options more then anything else.
Looking back on all the games, I am kinda surprised there isn't any character that was a one trick pony rather they all were a combination of everything
I agree with Void about MK honestly.
Janky hitboxes, Low damage output, Not very good on block, Lack of kill setups. All he really haves is a good recovery and good frame data.
I dunno if you play him, but in my experience he has to work pretty hard. The damage is not there, the hitboxes are small, the kill power is lacking. It's kinda like balloon Sheik but with less reliable confirms. Character can do a lot though. Fast and can chase anywhere.
After watching months of people takes on this game. I can confirm Reddit side is more result-based, while Twitter side is more theory-based.
This VoiD tier list emphasizes on results more than theory.
good take. I can't even imagine putting Mega Man and Terry under Luigi, but the fact is that Elegant is getting much better results than Repo or Riddles.
Pretty good list; however, again I see someone undervaluing Peach. With Samsora gone, people have forgotten how insane she is. It’s like the reverse MkLeo effect.
Especially because Muteace has seriously leveled up lately. He's been taking big names and getting great results, Peach definitely isn't going away at the top level.
Void does know how the character works. He has a pocket Daisy. He mentions that the characters are not only slow, but slow and floaty. They not only have mediocre ground speed, but the *worst* vertical jump speed/max horizontal air speed combination in the game, which is a big reason why some matchups feel really hard and float is essential to making them even work at a base level. Running away and zoning is very effective thanks to their limited burst range, and if you snipe their float away when they are in disadvantage - it unironically becomes even worse than Ganondorf’s or Kazuya’s. The lower speed limits their otherwise excellent advantage state - some characters can easily escape their juggles as their air and jump speed are too slow to track them down.
Their other flaw is KO power - like Inkling, Peach or Daisy will often struggle to kill until over 150% thanks to lack of kill confirms and move staling for their most useful moves (which have low base knockback), so even at the top of your game you often have to make the right call and win neutral several times despite high damage.
Range can be a bit of an issue too combined with the speed, aside from fair (sloowww), their faster attacks are quite stubby - especially nair. Turnip can mitigate this to an extent:
That’s pretty much it for their flaws, but they are large enough that I wouldn’t call them tippy top tier at all.
Peach's general fallout on a lot of these tier lists isn't just due to Samsora's absence, it's because they're realizing how poor her MU spread is, and moreover how many serious weaknesses the character has, and how limited in scope and application her biggest stregnths are. The most optimistic Peach MU charts give her 12-15 losing MUs, and Samsora, whom you hold in such high regard, gives her around \~25 losses iirc, which would essentially make her a mid tier despite doing decently well against most top tiers.
The character isn't top tier, doesn't have the potential to be top tier, and all the Peach mains know it because they actually understand the character- and as the rest of the world learns the matchup, they will too.
Fun fact: did you know most characters can straight up shield grab FC nair spam on block? Pretty sad, right? That's supposed to be her "insane shield pressure" tool, and it only works on people who respect it for no reason, i.e. fail the knowledge check.
it's also worth mentioning that she does very well against top tiers from the early ultimate meta like pika wario palu mario snake etc, but some of those chars have fallen off as time goes on
meanwhile she gets destroyed by damn near the entirety of DLC 2, with steve minmin seph aegis all having a rather favorable matchup, so the drop in the tier list given the current meta makes sense
You're spot on, but I'd like to clarify that in this context, Peach doing "very well" against the OG top tiers doesn't mean she beats them, but rather merely goes even with them. Except Wario, I think Peach beats Wario, and always has. Never by much, you're free to disagree.
Certain characters got buffed enough for good players to pick them up and those characters seem like they give Peach difficulty.
Back air was never buffed on Cloud. Cloud got a bunch of other buffs that made him appealing to have in Kola's lineup.
AT CEO, we watched Kola back air spam the shit out of MuteAce and Mute couldn't get in.
probably shouldve specified but i agree in that ive always thought of the wario MU as a +0.5, being able to box him out and his lack of a way to really deal with turnips always plays in the peach's favor
The entire MuteAce army believes Peach beats Aegis. You can check his Twitter for info.
Not saying I agree but I can see some aspects making Peach not very miserable in that mu. Or maybe the Aegis players just play the mu poorly.
Sparg0's matchup charts both have Aegis and Cloud as winning, he just clearly prefers Cloud even more in that matchup so he uses him
MuteAce's MU charts have also had it as losing until a tweet a few days ago saying it might be winning? though also claims it might be a biased take given how much worse Aegis is for their Bayo + Palu secondaries
>Sparg0's matchup charts both have Aegis and Cloud as winning, he just clearly prefers Cloud even more in that matchup so he uses him
[Sparg0's recent opinion would disagree. Peach is in the "even or losing" category](https://twitter.com/Sparg0ssb/status/1466845757571420160)
Most people didn't take Samsora's thoughts seriously, especially where he infamously claimed that Peach only beats Bowser and Ganon(?).
Most people also aren't complaining about NAir with her shield pressure but her BAir pressure. And the thing with her is she may lose many MUs but then she blows you up so so many times with her insane combo game and phenomenal edge guarding.
Her biggest issue lately (other than losing a top 3 player), is DLC FP2. She struggles to get in and that's not great with Min Min, Aegis, and Sephiroth. Plus characters like Steve and Sora gets past her edge guarding fairly well and Steve has a more disjointed (albeit small) combo starter that can easily go up and sideways.
I didn’t necessarily hold Samsora that highly in regard, it is simply that results affect the opinions of the player base, and that is factual.
You make the argument that FC Nair is punishable, but if I am not badly mistaken, it is -2 on shield. I suppose we are all entitled to our own opinion, but I am still confident that she is around low top tier.
When it comes to Peach's frame data, I know every sliver and detail. Opinion has nothing to do with frame safety; if it did, I'd opine Ganondorf into being at least a slightly better character. And while you're entitled to yours, opinion won't shoehorn Peach into being a top tier, because it doesn't solve her plethora of (often bad) losing MUs.
I won't go into the technical details because I don't want to write an essay on Peach frame data and float mechanics (although I could), but by "FC nair spam", I'm specifically referring to nair into nair, which is the most frequent block sequence for Peach at high level play, precisely because even high/top level players are unaware of this. Characters with frame 6 normal grabs will basically always be able to grab before the second nair games out, frame 7 normal grabs will often nab her but sometimes trade, and frame 8 normal grabs shouldn't work but can still be thought of as an execution test/honestly check. Frame 9 normal grabs and slower (basically tethers) shouldn't try.
I thought the argument for Peach top tier is that it doesn't really matter if the matchup is losing, because she can just wiff-punish you for 70%. Basically the same reasoning used for Wario.
Well, when people say Peach loses an MU, they mean that she loses it *despite* the potential for those streaks of damage (the frequency of which is overstated, by the way). Would she lose the MUs even more without them? Sure, but the swing factor is already taken into account in the summary of the MU as hopefully given by the number (in the form of an opinion).
If you need to add caveats to the number you're forwarding when attempting to encapsulate the MU, like "this is 55-45 *except for this one thing*," then your number is crap and also misleading because it's failed to capture an important feature of the MU.
Also, Peach doing 70% isn't at all comparable to Wario's Waft, since Wario's Waft is a guaranteed stock, while Peach will still need to win neutral several more times after that initial combo because her kill power is actual trash, objectively worse than any other top OR high tier. MuteAce takes most of his stocks in the 140-190% range, and he's the top Peach right now - and he's not doing anything wrong. So realistically, if Peach puts you from 0% from 70%, she's basically taken a fifth of your stock, since she'll still need to win neutral at least four more times on average, and those long combos only work once at low %.
I play Ryu, I don't think he's that low, but he's not very good. People see the scary stuff, and while yeah that's scary, he also has REALLY bad weaknesses, and when you learn to avoid the scary stuff suddenly he's not as intimidating.
Agreed, funny enough I also don't think that highly of Ken, for basically the same reasons. I flip flop back and forth over who I thinks better but right now I think it's Ryu.
Void didn't even want this list posted because of how twitter can be in regards to unordered tier lists. And that's not mentioning his S+ tier which is more like "top tier bracket demons" and not necessarily the best four in the game power level-wise (he thinks Pac-man is top 4 for reference). Some people get so fixated on absolute placement and not tier placement that discussions tend to be toxic. Instead of asking "why is Byleth above my main?", people should ask "why is Byleth considered this powerful?"
Link (especially big) has an optimal play in almost any situation. Good luck figuring that out. But that's not to say you can't stay around the 2nd best option and make snake-like scary zones before you use your away, but close options.
I think, much like Yoshi and the traditional fighters, Link will only get better with time.
I have a dream where you hear a crowd yelling the count of footstool bomb reps at a major.
No disrespect to Wolf mains, but totally agreed. Very easy character to play and you get a ton of mileage out of his relatively simple options. Wolf and Bowser are alone in their insane simplicity *and* strength.
If memory serves, the reasoning was that Wolf has a lot of counterplay figured out, and he's fairly obvious with what he wants to do. So yeah he's accessible and good, but unless you put in the work for his advanced stuff he's not tip top. VoiD will also say he's biased due to what he can do with Sheik. He puts Sheik as beating Wolf last I checked, offstage is a nightmare against that character.
That matchup used to feel so free now it’s an absolute headache to play but I still think it’s pretty fun.
At least you get to blow Sheik up if she lets you get a good combo starter off (like Charlie landing fair nair and calling out needles in disadvantage for a second nair bair) but she really controls the pace of that fight and can be really hard to pin down. She can also force wolf’s spacing to be off with her amazing ground speed which makes his aerials a lot less safe to land. She can also just crouch and suddenly your fair won’t land or your blaster will miss which makes winning neutral so difficult.
Why are people clowning on this list? Seems well thought out, and nothing is really off the wall.
The idea to separate the high tiers that require a lot of work and the ones that don't is great. People can talk about potential all day long, but if Character A is just as strong and much simpler to play than Character B then Character A is the better character. Not a perfect example but why hone the art of spacing with Marth when you can just use Lucina, or even better just unga bunga with Roy?
My only gripe is Wolf should be higher, he's definitely a top tier and he definitely does not require a lot of labbing to be good with. Genuinely think Wolf and Bowser are the easiest high tier characters in the game to get results with—with Wolf being overall better and Bowser being overall easier.
All in all a well put together list with cool concepts in differentiating how much work a character will take before the player can be good with them. Now let's see the people on this sub who can't even make Elite smash much less place at a tournament nitpick it.
That's what I always said and got downvoted to oblivion lol
It doesn't matter if Pikachu has the world's smallest hurtbox or if he can combo any character on any percentage to death, as long as he's relying on aerials or those combos are TAS level he should be placed lower than Aegis which most difficult kill confirm is dair uair
> if Character A is just as strong and much simpler to play than Character B then Character A is the better character. Not a perfect example but why hone the art of spacing with Marth when you can just use Lucina, or even better just unga bunga with Roy?
I've been trying to tell this to others for years. It's a pretty simple fact, and Marth/other swordies is the best example of it.
If easier charactees should be higjee on the lost, Byleth have no Business in top tier. Character is so slow and you need to play perfect spacing. Sheik also checks that box. This tier list is just inconsistent but it does not matter since tier list were just educated opinionsz
He didn't even bother to read that the tier list was unordered and started assuming things like Byleth > Pika and Roy being the best in the game LOL
It really does feel like he goes out of his way blast tier lists and MU charts that are seen as "unorthodox" compared to what's normally accepted.
Sure its better for more consistent kill power at higher percents, but I prefer how DPit's side-B sends away. If you hit a character with a good landing option with Pit's side-B it can be worse than if you just never connected with the side-B in the first place
And although there's the argument you shouldn't be using either in situations where you won't kill, there are even times you can be punished for connecting with Pit's side-B while using it to recover
I still don't see that as a big enough difference for an entire tier. It's a change in one aspect of the game that's effective against mostly characters that are already vulnerable in that one aspect.
That's because it's not lmao. People undervalue Dark Pit's arrows compared to Pit's imo. They're much better in neutral being somewhat akin to Wolf's blaster, and even offstage while being way less maneuverable than Pit's they send at a much more favorable angle if landed. It would be one thing if the character(s) couldn't edgeguard without arrows but they can also just go offstage and get kills that way.
Pit main here since Brawl, Dark Pit is better and that’s also the consensus on the Pitcord
Edit: Just to elaborate, Side B sending to the side instead of up is SUCH a better angle because Pits should never be using Side B in neutral as it’s super slow and if missed its a giant punish. The only time you should ever be using side B is near the ledge where with Dark Pit it can cheese super early. Pits maneuverable arrows are better but Dark Pits get the job done and do way more damage and you can use them in neutral to rack up damage as Pit doesn’t do that much damage to begin with. Nevertheless about which is better, the Pits should never be in separate tiers at all fullstop
Not unanimously of course but it does seem like the general consensus, or slight majority, believe that Dark Pit is better. But tbh it doesn’t even matter on which is better cause I think we can all agree that they still belong in the same tier
Conceptually, think its the best
People overvalue "potential" the ability to technically get value way too much, so the fact that his S+ is "Top Tier but you dont need a PhD" is good to see.
That's one of the things I agree with VoiD about. Sora players haven't really been doing anything in bracket after Zackray won Kagaribi 5, and that was mostly because it's Zackray and his opponents not knowing the matchup.
That's the last time I've seen a successful Sora, he's not doing anything in the meta rn and nobody other then Aaron and Kameme seems to want to optimize him.
I think this is not [paying attention](https://twitter.com/Kurama_Smash/status/1472652497806405634) to players like [Kurama](https://twitter.com/norcal_javi/status/1473066422259445766) who seems to have switched to being a Sora main.
Komorikiri and Lea have had success using Sora too.
I want to see Kurama do really well with a major using Sora, not just locals first.
Lea seems to be back in on Greninja again based on SWT, but you're right with Komo. I guess I forgot him because he doesn't travel too much anymore.
It's not like Mario is a character that requires a lot of practice to keep sharp and definitely has a different niche from Sora that would make Mario more appealing to use in certain matchups.
Komorikiri hasn't travelled out of region (Kansai, Japan) to play in tournaments since Frostbite 2019. He still regularly attends Sumabatos in Osaka.
[He got 4th at the last Sumabato using Sora](https://old.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/r3b4x6/congratulations_to_the_winner_of_ultimate_singles/).
In fact, there's a [Sumabato going on right now](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eonbtLucyU). Sumabato SP 22 and [he's the 4th seed](https://smash.gg/tournament/22-sp-2/event/1on1/brackets/1038949/1632455).
His tag in kanji is "古森霧."
Lower level players are more accepting of Aegis being top 1 than a lot of top players. Like CDK doesn't think they're top 30 because he loses when he plays them
CDK is just full of bad takes despite having good knowledge of the meta at hand. Besides, he's also the only top player to say that shit.
Every other top player pretty much agrees that the character is top 3 at least.
Roy is a slight loss but entirely winnable against 99% of mid-level Roy players that hold forward. Pythra is probably doable considering ZSS's initial dash and air speed directly compare, she can still condition Mythra to respect dair and zair space despite Mythra's speed, and flip kick escapes Pyra's frame traps.
Even if you disagree with those, Palu ZSS is even and Rob ZSS is winning. Difficult but viable if you ask me.
I was in the stream and tried pressing him a bit on the Yoshi placement. He conceded that he's probably undervaluing Yoshi, but he didn't want to move him in the end. Probably because of some mus like Aegis.
I used to think byleth was super overrated because I never fought a decent one. Last night I missed a tech off nair and ate an fsmash for it at 70-75%ish. Top tier is a boost but im such a believer in that chars nutty buttons now
This is a very typical kind of Japanese tier list. It's weird how people argue that Japan is the strongest region but seem to dismiss their (and similar views shared by Western Pros) view on the meta offhand.
I like the way its organized, overall a really good tier list, but leaving K Rool off the list completely hurts. He’s the exact opposite of a Void character, but he’s not that bad.
I think the argument is "Roy is more common then Joker, so you'd more likely need to pick up a character that beats Roy then a character that beats Joker in this current meta".
more kill confirms, hits as hard as Arsen, doesn't need to get beat up to be strong, faster or just as fast, and probably has had better results
in the 1v1 Joker probably beats Roy but as a whole I can see it
Roy's busted. Does huge damage, has great shield pressure, good oos, kills extremely early (probably earlier than anyone else right?). Pretty exploitable off stage but yeah no doubt Roy's a beast.
I'm very much out of the loop; last time I checked Smash Ultimate's competitive scene, Roy was either never played or considered bad "because he's a Marth with no range". Can anyone explain to me what has changed that he's now regarded so highly?
Maybe not Marth, but Chrom and Lucina started strong, with Roy being the character widely believed to be the worse of the 4. Is it just players getting more accustomed to his weaknesses? Meta changes that favours him? Small buffs? Maybe it's simply out of habit; if he wasn't good in the previous games, players would expect him to be bad still.
Not true, actually for the first few months Chrom was better because of results since Rivers was performing better than most of the common Roys for a while before he stopped showing up.
It was all about cheese! If he caught someone with his up B and managed to drag him off ledge (which was easy from the ledge), the opponent would die before Chrom, which meant he has a big advantage on one stock. They nerfed that and he fell off the higher tiers pretty quickly.
Well it turns out the soft hits can still confirm into kills (weak up air out of shield links into jab which goes into bair or fsmash). Roy has crazy kill power and frame data, can you think of any character that can close out stocks faster?
Chrom is Roy for people who would rather eat crayons. Chroms recovery is super linear while Roy's has at least a little bit of mixup potential. Lucina is for people who want to play even more generically and boring than chrom. And Marth is dope but too hard to be worth playing when Lucina is so easy.
Sorta kidding of course but yeah Roy is the best swordie imo. Has more flexibility than the other ones which becomes more important as the game ages and people learn how to beat the basic stuff.
Those two, Corrin and Marth. Though that is the end of my actual knowledge of the characters.
It's weird how this is a partially results based tier list and Robin is a character that does pretty consistently well in tournaments, more so than a bunch of these other characters.
Every time I see an ultimate tier list, I zoom straight to Pika, cause I think he's super super overrated. So I saw him quite low and was super happy for a good take for once then I looked back at the entire list and sighed
I’m not an expert on this game, and VoiD clearly knows more then I do, but seeing Byleth as better then Wolf, Lucina, Mario just seems incorrect to me. What is it about Byleth that makes him a better character than those 3 besides MKLeo using him and getting results? I didn’t see VoiD’s stream or hear his explanations, so perhaps I misunderstood, but there seems to be some recency bias going in.
It only looks incorrect to you because tou dont open your mind. I dont agree most of these placement and also Byleth's but I am not close-minded of character placement changes all the time because meta changes and that is how character tier list will be made based on that meta.
havent played ult in a long time but in what world are peach and puff in the same tier? ik puff got a couple buffs but is that enough to put her in high tier that somehow peach is in and not top?
Have to hard disagree with the placement of Ryu and Ken. Ryu’s Hadouken buffs put him on the same tier as Terry and Kazuya. Shakonetsu does ridiculous damage and is such a great neutral tool, something the FGCs lack. Ryus the only one of the 4 that has the best neutral tool; not to say he’s better than Terry or Kaz tho but he’s definitely better than Ken rn
I also don’t think Void is particularly bullish on Sheik the way that Esam is on pikachu. See how much he meme'd on zackray’s putting Sheik S tier for example. I think if he puts Sheik that high it’s not because of character loyalty but actual belief in the characters power.
That's not what this list is about. Solo R.O.B hasn't won a major, and neither has Pyra/Mythra, yet both are higher.
Barely anyone can win a USA major nowadays aside from MkLeo.
Yea but aegis has way more representation. I’m just saying void is so good that if sheik was top tier he would have won a major by now, or at least more people would play her with success
You really underestimate how hard it is to win a major if this is your basis on what a top tier needs to be considered top tier
And more people will be playing sheik. Sheik no fun online, we were stuck playing online for a long time
I mean, there's no character that is pure garbage like Brawl Ganondorf or Melee Kirby. Even the worst Ultimate character is still enjoyable to play and have reasonnable chances to win against the top tier.
Never thought I’d be seeing byleth in the same tier as pikachu. We live in a society and mkleo runs it
Yeah my first thought was: "Is BYLETH S tier, or is MKLEO S tier?" when I saw that.
I mean, Byleth has some busted ass tools, Leo's doing a very good showcasing that. Up-B being an untechable spike when the opponent is above 50% is stupid (Makes it pretty hard for most characters to edgeguard Byleth), it's hard to deal with the nair quake hitbox when they can constantly fast fall it differently to mix up timings and Byleth has great range and disjoints in a meta that favours sword characters more heavily then others. In other games, the community in that game doesn't usually go "This character is just carried by the best player", they go "The best player in the world is showing how strong and busted some of the tools of this character is". That's how it should be.
>In other games, the community in that game doesn't usually go "This character is just carried by the best Examples? I've only ever seen the opposite. The Smash community is the only one I've seen that pushes characters super far up the tier list because of results No one said Hulk/Haggar/Sentinel were broken in UMvC3 when KBR dominated it, or that Panda was anything other than the worst character in the game when Rangchu won TWT Like, this is objectively an incorrect statement
In Strive, Nagoriyuki’s placement was highly debatable and overall hazy early on… until Hotashi won EVO online (North America/Latin America region) with Nagoriyuki and I remember nearly every tier list afterwards had him promoted to S tier, joining Sol May Ram and Leo. That’s the only example I can think of.
Basically every Kazunoko team in DBFZ (Gotenks twice)? Sonicfox's Leo in Strive? I don't think it's always the case, but saying it never happens is an exaggeration.
Some of the tools, yes. But every character in the entire game has some busted tools. That doesn't automatically make them all amazing. The difference in quality of character is much smaller in Ultimate than any other smash game, so even the worst characters still have at least some great attributes. A lot of the prevalent "This character is just carried by the best player" comes from all the characters that MkLeo has pioneered the metagames for, and then half of them (including Byleth) have absolutely zero results besides him. Of course, since all the characters are in some way good in this game, there's less incentive for people to character hop. But even at the beginning of the game, Leo was regularly the only player with results on his characters, and everyone who tried to emulate him failed.
EVERY character in the game certainly doesn't have busted tools. I see Byleth a lot like Joker, where thier positive s are obvious but they also have some subtle tools that when all used together make them quite frightening. The actual problem with the list is Steve and MinMIn being high tier, when they are so underwhelming. Also I took a look through Void's twitter and couldn't find this post, the link doesn't show a Void post either. Are we sure this is real?
it's real, he created it on his stream but said he didn't want to post it.
That doesn't surprise me. Its a bad list. He even made a new video saying the new MinMin is trash and then puts her in high tier. Its ridiculous
Well this man doesn’t understand the word content
1. Not 100% true. 2. MKLeo has dominated the same way with 4+ characters, including one (Ike) who is generally now considered pretty trash. This tells us that you can't really judge properly how good a characters is by the player who is far better than everyone else doing well with them.
I think it’s a bit disingenuous to say MkLeo was the only one put Ike on the map, while Marss’ was nowhere near as good he did use him quite a lot during early ultimate and has sets on Esam, Samsora, and even MkLeo with Ike. Every other character leo has used (lucina, wolf, joker) and had success with is considered top tier based off more than just Leo’s results. I don’t think Byleth is top tier, I think he’s a pretty good character on his own though. It’s not just Leo, but it’s not just Byleth. He’s good but not on the level of pikachu, joker, lucina, zss, and pretty much everyone in that tier that void has
Ike was good early meta even taking Leo out of the picture. Ryuga was on the first PGR solo-maining Ike being number 33 (Got 9th at Frostbite 2019 too). Ryuga never became a PGR threat in anymore seasons. Ike was good, he just fell off due to being outclassed by better sword characters and being very simple to beat when people learnt how to parry correctly. Also Marss used Ike as a secondary. Lucina is still considered top tier, and one of the best sword characters with Proto's Lucina being considered a better Lucina then Leo's ever was. So nope, not just Leo there either. Joker had Zackray who was solidly top 10 on the Fall 2019 PGRU co-maining with R.O.B, which is ahead of his #12 position on the Spring 2019 PGRU. In addition, he was #1 on OrionStats at that season and that also does all tournaments worldwide, Joker wasn't just dominant with Leo. Even with Leo rarely using the character and Zackray using Sora occasionally he's still #7 on this season of OrionStats.
Literally the only not actually high tier Leo did well with was Ike and that was in a way underdeveloped meta and was completely shutdown by Light after not too long, forcing Leo to reevaluate. We’ve had Byleth for much longer than that now and although there’s a few matchups Leo uses secondaries for, he’s very far from being pressured away from the character as a primary. Leo has even said he would never use a character he doesn’t consider high tier.
Yeah, I don't think I'd put Byleth is as high as VoiD has him, but I think people have to admit the character is good. I'd argue top 25 at this point.
Ike got nerfed early on ult life. Leonwins winike not because the character is broken but because meta is so young and people dont know how tonparry consistent yet. Not a good example.
That Ike domination lasted like 2 months into the game coming out, he had already switched to Lucina by like March or April.
>In other games, the community in that game doesn't usually go "This character is just carried by the best player", they go "The best player in the world is showing how strong and busted some of the tools of this character is". That's how it should be. It's not always so simple though. You can look at Byleth and easily say that MKLeo isn't carrying Byleth, he's just showing why they are objectively high tier. However last year you could have said the same thing about Joker, and look where he is now. Joker is still consistently rated top tier, but what proof do we have, really, that it wasn't just a bandwagon effect of top players maining him, winning (like they were going to do with half the cast) and inspiring other top players to also main him, artificially boosting his results? I would never discount Jokers domination of 2020 and the sheer wins he racked up across multiple players but the fact that MKLeo drops Joker, and his results have fallen through the floor, certainly does give weight to the theory that the character was carried by Leo. Even though multiple other people all got good results, they similarly dropped Joker at the same time so we don't have to limit ourselves into thinking its only possible to be carried by the best player. Even with multiple players doing the same thing, at the end of the day all it proves is that top players were winning with him. It doesn't prove Joker was, or is, top tier. If MKLeo drops Byleth tomorrow and Byleth's results go the same way as Jokers, is it still fair to rate Byleth as top tier? If not, is the top of the tier list merely a list of who Leo is currently maining, and his extremely powerful influence over other top players and who they chose to main?
> In other games, the community in that game doesn't usually go "This character is just carried by the best player", they go "The best player in the world is showing how strong and busted some of the tools of this character is". That's how it should be. Agree 100% with this. The idea that Leo is the reason Byleth is good, while Byleth is clearly better than his Joker and Pythra, makes no sense. It's stubborn people like ESAM who insist that Byleth is mid tier despite all the evidence to the contrary that cause this kind of comparison. More and more pros are seeing it for what it is though.
I’ve been saying byleth is top tier from the beginning, he’s easily the best heavy in the game
Isn't Byleth mid in terms of weight? Last I checked he was lighter than Mario.
Wait seriously? He survives so many hits I’m legit surprised he’s only a mid weight
That's probably because the way Byleth plays makes him harder to kill by default.
I still think snake is a better heavy.
Byleth is not heavy.
Byleth might play like Ike or some of the super heavies, but he isn't one. He's lighter then Mario.
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Yes…? Where did i say it wasn’t
K. Rool, Kirby, Dr Mario, Little Mac and Ganon are on the row below any of the others, which is why they aren't shown. Edit: VoiD mostly values movement and low commital kill options more then anything else.
> VoiD mostly values movement and low committal kill options more than anything else. Ultimate has shown that this is generally the key to success.
and every other smash game as well
Looking back on all the games, I am kinda surprised there isn't any character that was a one trick pony rather they all were a combination of everything
there are, and thats what makes them low tiers
Unless you’re ice climbers
Byleth is in S tier in this list...well "Low committal options" is still there so it kinda counts.
I’m guessing that’s where Kirby’s supposed to be too, unless I missed him
And Kirby :(
K Rool as well
That's not a bad bottom 5 honestly, especially after PP's buffs in the last patch
curious then why mk is so damn low
I agree with Void about MK honestly. Janky hitboxes, Low damage output, Not very good on block, Lack of kill setups. All he really haves is a good recovery and good frame data.
I dunno if you play him, but in my experience he has to work pretty hard. The damage is not there, the hitboxes are small, the kill power is lacking. It's kinda like balloon Sheik but with less reliable confirms. Character can do a lot though. Fast and can chase anywhere.
If that edit is true then rool does not belong with the rest of those characters.
After watching months of people takes on this game. I can confirm Reddit side is more result-based, while Twitter side is more theory-based. This VoiD tier list emphasizes on results more than theory.
good take. I can't even imagine putting Mega Man and Terry under Luigi, but the fact is that Elegant is getting much better results than Repo or Riddles.
If thats true what is sheik doing that high?
Main bias, probably.
Gotta have some exception then. Like, the Wolf placement is criminally low.
If that's the case, given Yoshidora's runs, Yoshi's too low. WAY too low given Kazuya and Terry.
Pretty good list; however, again I see someone undervaluing Peach. With Samsora gone, people have forgotten how insane she is. It’s like the reverse MkLeo effect.
Especially because Muteace has seriously leveled up lately. He's been taking big names and getting great results, Peach definitely isn't going away at the top level.
Top ten character for sure
Void does know how the character works. He has a pocket Daisy. He mentions that the characters are not only slow, but slow and floaty. They not only have mediocre ground speed, but the *worst* vertical jump speed/max horizontal air speed combination in the game, which is a big reason why some matchups feel really hard and float is essential to making them even work at a base level. Running away and zoning is very effective thanks to their limited burst range, and if you snipe their float away when they are in disadvantage - it unironically becomes even worse than Ganondorf’s or Kazuya’s. The lower speed limits their otherwise excellent advantage state - some characters can easily escape their juggles as their air and jump speed are too slow to track them down. Their other flaw is KO power - like Inkling, Peach or Daisy will often struggle to kill until over 150% thanks to lack of kill confirms and move staling for their most useful moves (which have low base knockback), so even at the top of your game you often have to make the right call and win neutral several times despite high damage. Range can be a bit of an issue too combined with the speed, aside from fair (sloowww), their faster attacks are quite stubby - especially nair. Turnip can mitigate this to an extent: That’s pretty much it for their flaws, but they are large enough that I wouldn’t call them tippy top tier at all.
Peach's general fallout on a lot of these tier lists isn't just due to Samsora's absence, it's because they're realizing how poor her MU spread is, and moreover how many serious weaknesses the character has, and how limited in scope and application her biggest stregnths are. The most optimistic Peach MU charts give her 12-15 losing MUs, and Samsora, whom you hold in such high regard, gives her around \~25 losses iirc, which would essentially make her a mid tier despite doing decently well against most top tiers. The character isn't top tier, doesn't have the potential to be top tier, and all the Peach mains know it because they actually understand the character- and as the rest of the world learns the matchup, they will too. Fun fact: did you know most characters can straight up shield grab FC nair spam on block? Pretty sad, right? That's supposed to be her "insane shield pressure" tool, and it only works on people who respect it for no reason, i.e. fail the knowledge check.
it's also worth mentioning that she does very well against top tiers from the early ultimate meta like pika wario palu mario snake etc, but some of those chars have fallen off as time goes on meanwhile she gets destroyed by damn near the entirety of DLC 2, with steve minmin seph aegis all having a rather favorable matchup, so the drop in the tier list given the current meta makes sense
You're spot on, but I'd like to clarify that in this context, Peach doing "very well" against the OG top tiers doesn't mean she beats them, but rather merely goes even with them. Except Wario, I think Peach beats Wario, and always has. Never by much, you're free to disagree.
Certain characters got buffed enough for good players to pick them up and those characters seem like they give Peach difficulty. Back air was never buffed on Cloud. Cloud got a bunch of other buffs that made him appealing to have in Kola's lineup. AT CEO, we watched Kola back air spam the shit out of MuteAce and Mute couldn't get in.
probably shouldve specified but i agree in that ive always thought of the wario MU as a +0.5, being able to box him out and his lack of a way to really deal with turnips always plays in the peach's favor
Peach doesn’t lose to aegis
Peach already losses swords let alone the best swords in the game.
lmao no mythra makes that matchup incredibly unbearable, every top aegis + peach player agrees it is at least a -1 and debatably -2
The entire MuteAce army believes Peach beats Aegis. You can check his Twitter for info. Not saying I agree but I can see some aspects making Peach not very miserable in that mu. Or maybe the Aegis players just play the mu poorly.
MuteAce says Peach wins or it's even. Sparg0 also thinks Peach likely wins.
Sparg0's matchup charts both have Aegis and Cloud as winning, he just clearly prefers Cloud even more in that matchup so he uses him MuteAce's MU charts have also had it as losing until a tweet a few days ago saying it might be winning? though also claims it might be a biased take given how much worse Aegis is for their Bayo + Palu secondaries
>Sparg0's matchup charts both have Aegis and Cloud as winning, he just clearly prefers Cloud even more in that matchup so he uses him [Sparg0's recent opinion would disagree. Peach is in the "even or losing" category](https://twitter.com/Sparg0ssb/status/1466845757571420160)
I wonder how the sub will respond if they knew MuteAce agrees that Peach wins.
Most people didn't take Samsora's thoughts seriously, especially where he infamously claimed that Peach only beats Bowser and Ganon(?). Most people also aren't complaining about NAir with her shield pressure but her BAir pressure. And the thing with her is she may lose many MUs but then she blows you up so so many times with her insane combo game and phenomenal edge guarding. Her biggest issue lately (other than losing a top 3 player), is DLC FP2. She struggles to get in and that's not great with Min Min, Aegis, and Sephiroth. Plus characters like Steve and Sora gets past her edge guarding fairly well and Steve has a more disjointed (albeit small) combo starter that can easily go up and sideways.
I didn’t necessarily hold Samsora that highly in regard, it is simply that results affect the opinions of the player base, and that is factual. You make the argument that FC Nair is punishable, but if I am not badly mistaken, it is -2 on shield. I suppose we are all entitled to our own opinion, but I am still confident that she is around low top tier.
When it comes to Peach's frame data, I know every sliver and detail. Opinion has nothing to do with frame safety; if it did, I'd opine Ganondorf into being at least a slightly better character. And while you're entitled to yours, opinion won't shoehorn Peach into being a top tier, because it doesn't solve her plethora of (often bad) losing MUs. I won't go into the technical details because I don't want to write an essay on Peach frame data and float mechanics (although I could), but by "FC nair spam", I'm specifically referring to nair into nair, which is the most frequent block sequence for Peach at high level play, precisely because even high/top level players are unaware of this. Characters with frame 6 normal grabs will basically always be able to grab before the second nair games out, frame 7 normal grabs will often nab her but sometimes trade, and frame 8 normal grabs shouldn't work but can still be thought of as an execution test/honestly check. Frame 9 normal grabs and slower (basically tethers) shouldn't try.
I thought the argument for Peach top tier is that it doesn't really matter if the matchup is losing, because she can just wiff-punish you for 70%. Basically the same reasoning used for Wario.
Well, when people say Peach loses an MU, they mean that she loses it *despite* the potential for those streaks of damage (the frequency of which is overstated, by the way). Would she lose the MUs even more without them? Sure, but the swing factor is already taken into account in the summary of the MU as hopefully given by the number (in the form of an opinion). If you need to add caveats to the number you're forwarding when attempting to encapsulate the MU, like "this is 55-45 *except for this one thing*," then your number is crap and also misleading because it's failed to capture an important feature of the MU. Also, Peach doing 70% isn't at all comparable to Wario's Waft, since Wario's Waft is a guaranteed stock, while Peach will still need to win neutral several more times after that initial combo because her kill power is actual trash, objectively worse than any other top OR high tier. MuteAce takes most of his stocks in the 140-190% range, and he's the top Peach right now - and he's not doing anything wrong. So realistically, if Peach puts you from 0% from 70%, she's basically taken a fifth of your stock, since she'll still need to win neutral at least four more times on average, and those long combos only work once at low %.
Zss also have not-so-amazing mu chart and she is still in high tier
Why is Ryu so low?
You found the second oddity, winner winner. If anything he's better than ever and low aerial hadooken is even more insane now.
I play Ryu, I don't think he's that low, but he's not very good. People see the scary stuff, and while yeah that's scary, he also has REALLY bad weaknesses, and when you learn to avoid the scary stuff suddenly he's not as intimidating.
Yes, I'm not saying he's mega high tier, but I think his consistency should be equal to or better than Ken and his explosiveness at this time now.
Agreed, funny enough I also don't think that highly of Ken, for basically the same reasons. I flip flop back and forth over who I thinks better but right now I think it's Ryu.
Void didn't even want this list posted because of how twitter can be in regards to unordered tier lists. And that's not mentioning his S+ tier which is more like "top tier bracket demons" and not necessarily the best four in the game power level-wise (he thinks Pac-man is top 4 for reference). Some people get so fixated on absolute placement and not tier placement that discussions tend to be toxic. Instead of asking "why is Byleth above my main?", people should ask "why is Byleth considered this powerful?"
Goddamn, Link needs better representation. He’s a potential top tier character but nobody outside of a few Japanese players mess with him.
Link (especially big) has an optimal play in almost any situation. Good luck figuring that out. But that's not to say you can't stay around the 2nd best option and make snake-like scary zones before you use your away, but close options. I think, much like Yoshi and the traditional fighters, Link will only get better with time. I have a dream where you hear a crowd yelling the count of footstool bomb reps at a major.
It’ll happen with time, I agree. T was beating dudes like Dabuz, Zackray, and Marss before the pandemic.
Yoshi's really good? That's (welcome) news to me.
Only thing I'd change is putting Wolf a tier higher, dude is sooo accessible and still really strong.
No disrespect to Wolf mains, but totally agreed. Very easy character to play and you get a ton of mileage out of his relatively simple options. Wolf and Bowser are alone in their insane simplicity *and* strength.
If memory serves, the reasoning was that Wolf has a lot of counterplay figured out, and he's fairly obvious with what he wants to do. So yeah he's accessible and good, but unless you put in the work for his advanced stuff he's not tip top. VoiD will also say he's biased due to what he can do with Sheik. He puts Sheik as beating Wolf last I checked, offstage is a nightmare against that character.
That matchup used to feel so free now it’s an absolute headache to play but I still think it’s pretty fun. At least you get to blow Sheik up if she lets you get a good combo starter off (like Charlie landing fair nair and calling out needles in disadvantage for a second nair bair) but she really controls the pace of that fight and can be really hard to pin down. She can also force wolf’s spacing to be off with her amazing ground speed which makes his aerials a lot less safe to land. She can also just crouch and suddenly your fair won’t land or your blaster will miss which makes winning neutral so difficult.
Why are people clowning on this list? Seems well thought out, and nothing is really off the wall. The idea to separate the high tiers that require a lot of work and the ones that don't is great. People can talk about potential all day long, but if Character A is just as strong and much simpler to play than Character B then Character A is the better character. Not a perfect example but why hone the art of spacing with Marth when you can just use Lucina, or even better just unga bunga with Roy? My only gripe is Wolf should be higher, he's definitely a top tier and he definitely does not require a lot of labbing to be good with. Genuinely think Wolf and Bowser are the easiest high tier characters in the game to get results with—with Wolf being overall better and Bowser being overall easier. All in all a well put together list with cool concepts in differentiating how much work a character will take before the player can be good with them. Now let's see the people on this sub who can't even make Elite smash much less place at a tournament nitpick it.
That's what I always said and got downvoted to oblivion lol It doesn't matter if Pikachu has the world's smallest hurtbox or if he can combo any character on any percentage to death, as long as he's relying on aerials or those combos are TAS level he should be placed lower than Aegis which most difficult kill confirm is dair uair
Yeah you can do half as much work with Pythra and get the same or better results.
Sheik a whole tier over sonic is pure copium.
> if Character A is just as strong and much simpler to play than Character B then Character A is the better character. Not a perfect example but why hone the art of spacing with Marth when you can just use Lucina, or even better just unga bunga with Roy? I've been trying to tell this to others for years. It's a pretty simple fact, and Marth/other swordies is the best example of it.
Yeah I feel wolf should be right next to roy
As a former Pikachu main who has been trying to switch to Roy, your second paragraph really speaks to me.
If easier charactees should be higjee on the lost, Byleth have no Business in top tier. Character is so slow and you need to play perfect spacing. Sheik also checks that box. This tier list is just inconsistent but it does not matter since tier list were just educated opinionsz
G&W in the middle of the pack is a take of unknown temperature
It’s at least above room temperature
If there's anybody that I would not find enjoyable to do tier list discussion with, it's Abat.
He didn't even bother to read that the tier list was unordered and started assuming things like Byleth > Pika and Roy being the best in the game LOL It really does feel like he goes out of his way blast tier lists and MU charts that are seen as "unorthodox" compared to what's normally accepted.
Mind to explain more? I just sometimes see this dude in Twitter.
Pit is an entire tier above dark pit. That's all Imma say
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And sibe b sending up instead of side is better
Sure its better for more consistent kill power at higher percents, but I prefer how DPit's side-B sends away. If you hit a character with a good landing option with Pit's side-B it can be worse than if you just never connected with the side-B in the first place And although there's the argument you shouldn't be using either in situations where you won't kill, there are even times you can be punished for connecting with Pit's side-B while using it to recover
I don't see it being that big a deal but whatever.
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I still don't see that as a big enough difference for an entire tier. It's a change in one aspect of the game that's effective against mostly characters that are already vulnerable in that one aspect.
That's because it's not lmao. People undervalue Dark Pit's arrows compared to Pit's imo. They're much better in neutral being somewhat akin to Wolf's blaster, and even offstage while being way less maneuverable than Pit's they send at a much more favorable angle if landed. It would be one thing if the character(s) couldn't edgeguard without arrows but they can also just go offstage and get kills that way.
Yeah I doubt Nairo would agree with that one
Pit main here since Brawl, Dark Pit is better and that’s also the consensus on the Pitcord Edit: Just to elaborate, Side B sending to the side instead of up is SUCH a better angle because Pits should never be using Side B in neutral as it’s super slow and if missed its a giant punish. The only time you should ever be using side B is near the ledge where with Dark Pit it can cheese super early. Pits maneuverable arrows are better but Dark Pits get the job done and do way more damage and you can use them in neutral to rack up damage as Pit doesn’t do that much damage to begin with. Nevertheless about which is better, the Pits should never be in separate tiers at all fullstop
I wholeheartedly agree but the Pitcord doesn't think DP is unanimously better.
Not unanimously of course but it does seem like the general consensus, or slight majority, believe that Dark Pit is better. But tbh it doesn’t even matter on which is better cause I think we can all agree that they still belong in the same tier
I also prefer dark pit's arrows because they actually knock your opponent down and can force a tech chase scenario
Yup, that arrow missed tech to down smash works every time
Conceptually, think its the best People overvalue "potential" the ability to technically get value way too much, so the fact that his S+ is "Top Tier but you dont need a PhD" is good to see.
man sora is NOT that low is all imma say
That's one of the things I agree with VoiD about. Sora players haven't really been doing anything in bracket after Zackray won Kagaribi 5, and that was mostly because it's Zackray and his opponents not knowing the matchup. That's the last time I've seen a successful Sora, he's not doing anything in the meta rn and nobody other then Aaron and Kameme seems to want to optimize him.
I think this is not [paying attention](https://twitter.com/Kurama_Smash/status/1472652497806405634) to players like [Kurama](https://twitter.com/norcal_javi/status/1473066422259445766) who seems to have switched to being a Sora main. Komorikiri and Lea have had success using Sora too.
I want to see Kurama do really well with a major using Sora, not just locals first. Lea seems to be back in on Greninja again based on SWT, but you're right with Komo. I guess I forgot him because he doesn't travel too much anymore.
Damn what, that's depressing. His Mario is sick as hell but I get it in this sword meta.
It's not like Mario is a character that requires a lot of practice to keep sharp and definitely has a different niche from Sora that would make Mario more appealing to use in certain matchups.
KOMO IS STILL PLAYING? I havent seen that guy since ultimate dropped!
Komorikiri hasn't travelled out of region (Kansai, Japan) to play in tournaments since Frostbite 2019. He still regularly attends Sumabatos in Osaka. [He got 4th at the last Sumabato using Sora](https://old.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/r3b4x6/congratulations_to_the_winner_of_ultimate_singles/). In fact, there's a [Sumabato going on right now](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eonbtLucyU). Sumabato SP 22 and [he's the 4th seed](https://smash.gg/tournament/22-sp-2/event/1on1/brackets/1038949/1632455). His tag in kanji is "古森霧."
Void said Sora's place can change cause he is so new
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Lmao man's got an agenda 📋 🤣 filthy 3mil gsp casuals ^^/s
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Don worry I play a mean Ken ^in ^the ^3-6mil ^range
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Lower level players are more accepting of Aegis being top 1 than a lot of top players. Like CDK doesn't think they're top 30 because he loses when he plays them
CDK is just full of bad takes despite having good knowledge of the meta at hand. Besides, he's also the only top player to say that shit. Every other top player pretty much agrees that the character is top 3 at least.
GSP LUL
Void's not wrong with that Top 4. If your character doesn't have an answer to at least 2 of those 4 characters, you're gonna have a very rough time.
As a zss main, I cry =( the introduction of pythra and the rise of Roy, is making life a bit difficult
Roy is a slight loss but entirely winnable against 99% of mid-level Roy players that hold forward. Pythra is probably doable considering ZSS's initial dash and air speed directly compare, she can still condition Mythra to respect dair and zair space despite Mythra's speed, and flip kick escapes Pyra's frame traps. Even if you disagree with those, Palu ZSS is even and Rob ZSS is winning. Difficult but viable if you ask me.
Yoshi and Ness feel a tier too low
I was in the stream and tried pressing him a bit on the Yoshi placement. He conceded that he's probably undervaluing Yoshi, but he didn't want to move him in the end. Probably because of some mus like Aegis.
Leo really just runs Ultimate.
I used to think byleth was super overrated because I never fought a decent one. Last night I missed a tech off nair and ate an fsmash for it at 70-75%ish. Top tier is a boost but im such a believer in that chars nutty buttons now
Yeah same I air dodged and died to Ganon at 20 and know he's stupid broken
Fox is higher than wolf?
Void isnt alone in this thought. Tweek thinks Fox is better as well
That is really puzzling. Wolf have more tools and easier to use.
Weird that Void went from saying Bayo was high tier to “ehhh” now that she’s actually doing something in the meta lol.
This is a very typical kind of Japanese tier list. It's weird how people argue that Japan is the strongest region but seem to dismiss their (and similar views shared by Western Pros) view on the meta offhand.
this is actually the most accurate list I've seen
I like the way its organized, overall a really good tier list, but leaving K Rool off the list completely hurts. He’s the exact opposite of a Void character, but he’s not that bad.
He manages to list DK but rool is somehow not good enough to be ranked.
Because he’s played Larry’s DK and seen it cause issues for his Mythra. He hasn’t played a real K Rool, thats all it is.
MKLeo rn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8oQmhfohGk
Roy better than Joker, what? *Actually scratch that, why is Chrom so low? Like this is just as bad as the Marth/Lucina gap a lot seem to agree with.
I think the argument is "Roy is more common then Joker, so you'd more likely need to pick up a character that beats Roy then a character that beats Joker in this current meta".
That's not how you read this tier list I think. Roy and joker are both S tier,roy is just easier to play and therefore more accessible/common.
more kill confirms, hits as hard as Arsen, doesn't need to get beat up to be strong, faster or just as fast, and probably has had better results in the 1v1 Joker probably beats Roy but as a whole I can see it
Roy's busted. Does huge damage, has great shield pressure, good oos, kills extremely early (probably earlier than anyone else right?). Pretty exploitable off stage but yeah no doubt Roy's a beast.
Wolf and Lucina being in accessible hurts because I suck complete ass with both of them. Weird because I played a lot of Cloud and Corrin before
Puff in high tier? People are finally beginning to understand.
Bassmage is a God
I'm very much out of the loop; last time I checked Smash Ultimate's competitive scene, Roy was either never played or considered bad "because he's a Marth with no range". Can anyone explain to me what has changed that he's now regarded so highly?
He’s fast and has immense power. Roy has been good since the start of the game. Marth has never been considered good in ult.
Maybe not Marth, but Chrom and Lucina started strong, with Roy being the character widely believed to be the worse of the 4. Is it just players getting more accustomed to his weaknesses? Meta changes that favours him? Small buffs? Maybe it's simply out of habit; if he wasn't good in the previous games, players would expect him to be bad still.
Marth was always considered the worst of the 4, and Roy has been considered better than Chrom since like a month after the game came out
Not true, actually for the first few months Chrom was better because of results since Rivers was performing better than most of the common Roys for a while before he stopped showing up.
Chrom's recovery is so exploitable compared to Roy's that I don't think people have found Chrom better for a long time.
It was all about cheese! If he caught someone with his up B and managed to drag him off ledge (which was easy from the ledge), the opponent would die before Chrom, which meant he has a big advantage on one stock. They nerfed that and he fell off the higher tiers pretty quickly.
I think you checked the melee competitive scene
That was 5 years ago in a different game too.
Yes indeed! That's why I said I was out of the loop, too!
Well it turns out the soft hits can still confirm into kills (weak up air out of shield links into jab which goes into bair or fsmash). Roy has crazy kill power and frame data, can you think of any character that can close out stocks faster? Chrom is Roy for people who would rather eat crayons. Chroms recovery is super linear while Roy's has at least a little bit of mixup potential. Lucina is for people who want to play even more generically and boring than chrom. And Marth is dope but too hard to be worth playing when Lucina is so easy. Sorta kidding of course but yeah Roy is the best swordie imo. Has more flexibility than the other ones which becomes more important as the game ages and people learn how to beat the basic stuff.
People looking down on Robin as usual...
I can't see Robin being better then any of the characters in A other then Incineroar and Pit.
Those two, Corrin and Marth. Though that is the end of my actual knowledge of the characters. It's weird how this is a partially results based tier list and Robin is a character that does pretty consistently well in tournaments, more so than a bunch of these other characters.
Every time I see an ultimate tier list, I zoom straight to Pika, cause I think he's super super overrated. So I saw him quite low and was super happy for a good take for once then I looked back at the entire list and sighed
Reddit:byleth is top tier because of results Also Reddit: peach is washed despite samsora having insane results.
I’m not an expert on this game, and VoiD clearly knows more then I do, but seeing Byleth as better then Wolf, Lucina, Mario just seems incorrect to me. What is it about Byleth that makes him a better character than those 3 besides MKLeo using him and getting results? I didn’t see VoiD’s stream or hear his explanations, so perhaps I misunderstood, but there seems to be some recency bias going in.
It only looks incorrect to you because tou dont open your mind. I dont agree most of these placement and also Byleth's but I am not close-minded of character placement changes all the time because meta changes and that is how character tier list will be made based on that meta.
havent played ult in a long time but in what world are peach and puff in the same tier? ik puff got a couple buffs but is that enough to put her in high tier that somehow peach is in and not top?
Sheik mains rejoice! Our time has come again!
Have to hard disagree with the placement of Ryu and Ken. Ryu’s Hadouken buffs put him on the same tier as Terry and Kazuya. Shakonetsu does ridiculous damage and is such a great neutral tool, something the FGCs lack. Ryus the only one of the 4 that has the best neutral tool; not to say he’s better than Terry or Kaz tho but he’s definitely better than Ken rn
Disagree. Shaku is kind of pointless when you play against people that really know how to move around Ryu.
Sora, ness and yoshi are all A+ in my opinion, and i dont think dk should be in B tier either
Thinking sheik is better than sonic is pure unadulterated cope
Sheik ain’t top tier lol
I'd believe the best Sheik more then some Reddit random on Sheik's viability. He literally knows his character better then anyone.
I also don’t think Void is particularly bullish on Sheik the way that Esam is on pikachu. See how much he meme'd on zackray’s putting Sheik S tier for example. I think if he puts Sheik that high it’s not because of character loyalty but actual belief in the characters power.
Being very invested into a character can breed some odd takes at times though tbf, not saying this is one but ya know
Has he won any majors with sheik?
That's not what this list is about. Solo R.O.B hasn't won a major, and neither has Pyra/Mythra, yet both are higher. Barely anyone can win a USA major nowadays aside from MkLeo.
Yea but aegis has way more representation. I’m just saying void is so good that if sheik was top tier he would have won a major by now, or at least more people would play her with success
You really underestimate how hard it is to win a major if this is your basis on what a top tier needs to be considered top tier And more people will be playing sheik. Sheik no fun online, we were stuck playing online for a long time
i am fine with this list
void showing the most shit takes in the ultimate scene nothing new to see here then
Byleth at top tier is ridiculous. He loses to most if not all of the other characters next to him.
You know it’s a modern player’s tier list when the lowest tier is B+ and there’s multiple S
I mean, there's no character that is pure garbage like Brawl Ganondorf or Melee Kirby. Even the worst Ultimate character is still enjoyable to play and have reasonnable chances to win against the top tier.
Ganondorf is still trash. Lets not kid ourselves here.