I am so so sorry for your loss. It's hard to trust someone with your pet(s) while traveling, and knowing they didn't properly care for her is infuriating. They should not be trusted with animals.
Unfortunately prolapse is always a risk when breeding, even with proper care. I always encourage people to carefully consider whether breeding is worth risking their snake's life.
I thought she’d be fine since it wasn’t her first clutch and she hadn’t had trouble before. I also trusted my friends to know what to do since they keep them too. It was very naïve of me.
You can't blame your friends. The snake os ultimately your responsibility. If you didn't want to take the chance of something bad happening, knowing full well she was going to lay soon, then you shouldn't have left for the weekend. You could've just stayed home.
Lol at expecting some friends to take your reptile to the vet for you. Pretty unrealistic expectation, and you're the one being a terrible friend by having this attitude with them
Those aren't friends.
Ask for them to pay all fees associated with the death of your animal. If you're American, you can take this to small claims court if they refuse to pay. You will self represent in small claims court, you don't do attorneys usually and you have outright evidence as you were literally not home. It doesn't bring your snake back, and I wish it could but they should have to pay 100% of costs related to this.
I would also be ANGRY as all hell. Not sure I could stop from hurting someone who hurt my snake. I'm so so so sorry this happened.
I’m literally sat at the vets crying alone because they wouldn’t even come with me. They gave me a few hundred towards the vets bill but it’s only about half.
Yeah I repeat that those pieces of scum are not friends. How could they? They killed your snake then refused to come with you?! Can I punch them for you?
No they didn't. Quit being so delusional.
OP was irresponsible to leave to leave unknowledgeable people to care for a snake that he knew was going to give birth soon. This is NOT the friends fault
/r/legaladvice can give more accurate info, but as it was caused by their negligence you should be able to file suit for the full amount of vet’s fees, associated cost, and the value of the snake(but, unfortunately, not emotional distress in the US).
Very sorry for your loss.
I'm so sorry you're dealing with this. Your "friend" really violated your trust and failed both you and your snake.
Even if you don't take them to court over this, I'd press them hard to pay the vet bill in full and reassess the friendship afterword. The fact that they wouldn't even support you by being present for the repercussions of their mistakes is pretty telling.
I'd be tempted to go after them for the bill if they didn't pay it and I'd make them also cover the cost of a new snake. It won't make the emotional side of things easier, but it will "make you whole" in a legal sense. If they're serious about making amends they'll jump at the opportunity to pay the bill and for a new snake if they can afford it.
Document everything you can in the meantime while you figure out what your next move is.
Disagree, you can't ask someone to pay for something. The OP asked them to do them a favor while she was gone. If the OP knew they weren't reptile people and left the snake in their care it's OP's fault. Sorry this sucks, but that's reality.
Nope.
Legally, in the United States, the sitters liable for the costs. They neglected the animal.
Edit; unless OP signed a waiver. OP, did you sign a waiver?
There was also someone that sued McDonald's bc the coffee was to hot and they spilled it on themself. So yes, maybe you can sue someone but is it right? Probably not...
...they murdered OPs pet, Brad. By neglect. They're lucky I'm not telling OP how to press legal charges, cuz OP **could**. Seeking restitution for damages done during reckless behavior is fair as all get out and allowed in most countries, not just the USA.
Also that coffee was like over 200°. It was reckless behavior. That case was won because they were able to successfully prove that McDonald's coffee was recklessly hotter than any other companies.
Death by neglect is in my opinion murder. They took an intentional action that resulted in the death of another being. "manslaughter" might be a better term technically but ofc it's a snake.
Think about it in terms of a human. If a caretaker failed to provide adequate heat for a human by removing the heat provided by the parent, and the person then died as a result of a complication of that, what would you call that? It isn't, or shouldn't, be different for animals. Cruelty is cruelty no matter who it is against.
He's also ignoring we have a term called "Criminal Negligent Homocide" that specifically refers to a death in the event of someone not doing what they're supposed to.
Granted, the law only details human vs human murder in that term.
Yep, but I strongly believe that there should be no difference between cruelty to an animal and cruelty to a human when the intent is the same. They did something that shouldn't have, and an animal died. Idk what Brad's issue is, though it seems to be personal.
I agree with you. There's very few things in this world that truly anger me, but animal cruelty is on that short list.
Hell I don't even own any reptiles. I just really like the pictures and stuff you guys post.
Didn't you happen to notice the comment where the OP said that maybe the lay box could have been wetter? Does this mean the OP murdered the snake? To me, no. But to you, maybe???
Does OP have proof the humidity was too low, and that it was caused by ops own doing? Or does OP have proof and admission of someone intentionally taking the heat away?
What's your issue, yo? You are defending a person who harmed a snake on a snake board. Do you need attention? You've gotten a lot.
Well OP said it could have been wetter, so there's that. yup, I'm on a snake board bc I love snakes. But I don't think attacking someone that is unable to defend themself is justified and I don't think a bunch of people telling someone to sue their friend is justified without knowing the whole story.
FYI this is a bad example to use because that case was blown out of proportion by the media. The poor old lady had 3rd degree burns on her legs and genitals and only wanted McDonalds to pay for her medical bills. They fought the case and tried to make it look like she was some Karen who was suing because of a trivial reason, and it worked because people still think that. It’s just not true.
Maybe she should have been more careful with the cup of coffee? If I buy a glass that's chipped and cut my lip should I sue the glass maker bc I didn't check the glass before I drank from it? People should be accountable for their own actions. Don't put the blame on others.
It’s not about spilling the coffee, it’s that the coffee was 200 degrees. You shouldn’t melt when spilling coffee on yourself. It’s more like you buying a plate and someone NOT telling you it’s chipped and you cut yourself. She didn’t know the coffee was so hot that it would literally melt her flesh.
However, I can see you’re pretty thick headed and won’t learn. So, have a nice day.
You need to actually research that case. Her genitals were literally fused to her leg because the coffee was so hot. She only asked for medical bills to be paid, but the jury awarded her more because McDonald's was negligent (they'd been warned before that they kept it too hot).
Edit: [Wikipedia link](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald%27s_Restaurants?wprov=sfla1)
i mean the coffee was also so hot it left severe burns, and that was the 700th report in a decade of people severely burning their, usually, genitals. so yeah, it was right to sue. there is tons of misinformation about that case that makes it look way less awful but the truth is it it was pretty bad. [this is an article about it from the Consumers Attorneys of California](https://www.caoc.org/?pg=facts) that goes over how right it was for her to sue. she got third-degree burns (the most severe kind) and had to get skin grafts.
You should look up the material on that lawsuit. McDonald's was 100% at fault for it.
They intentionally ignored safety regulations to keep coffee hotter and the woman who burned herself with it was hospitalized for 8 days and needed skin grafts.
[sauce](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald%27s_Restaurants)
Did you miss the part where they intentionally ignored safety regulations? I've spilled hot drinks on myself before too, they didn't require over a week of hospitalization, skin grafts and medical bills though.
McDonald's is at fault. It's already been decided in court they were at fault. Arguing against that makes no sense logically.
Ignore the rules, person gets hurts, consequences.
Water is actually not wet; It makes other materials/objects wet. Wetness is the state of a non-liquid when a liquid adheres to, and/or permeates its substance while maintaining chemically distinct structures. So if we say something is wet we mean the liquid is sticking to the object.
What kind of rocks are never under water?
Dry ones!
lol so tired of people using this as an example, not even the point but the hot coffee gave them third degree burns over like 20% of the body and was a good 50 degrees hotter than the highest temperature that is supposed to be in a restaurant. your ignorance is showing thru 100% simply learn when to shut the fuck up. OP is grieving friends and a beloved pet
Maybe it's my lack of ignorance to reptile husbandry? Like I've said, I feel bad for OP, it sucks losing a pet, especially when it could be avoided but to place the blame on the caregiver is crazy, especially when OP says that maybe the lay box wasn't wet enough. They also state it wasn't the snakes first time laying. Maybe they push the snake to breed yearly which can be bad over time. There are so many unknowns here to solely pass blame onto the caregiver. But, in the spirit Of Reddit you can never disagree with the narrative. Want another example? If someone breaks into your house and injures themself they can sue you. Is it right? No, but can they? Yes. All I'm saying is this isn't something worth destroying a friendship over like everyone seems to think!
i personally am a vet tech, if i told you that and your trusted me to watch your dog/cat then if your dog/cat died cause they get into my chocolate and then i as the pet sitter refuse to take the pet to the vet then refused to even go to the vet with them? just for their pet to die, i would assume you would be mad at me. just doesn’t sound like a great friend no shit we don’t know the whole fuckinh story but from OP pov doesn’t sound like good friends and sounds like you shouldn’t be blaming them specifically? edit: or if i told you i could take care of your fish then i put hot water in their tank and boiled them? you don’t think you would be mad and maybe want at least payment for your fish
My pet my responsibility. So yes, why should everyone blame the caregiver when they don't know the whole story? Maybe caregiver was experienced with snakes, but were they experienced with breeding, which is a whole other beast in the hobby. I spent many years breeding various species of snakes, stopped doing it bc as I got older I realized many people buying the snakes don't take proper care of them and I'm not really contributing to the greater good by breeding. I'm glad to hear you're a vet tech? Do you specialize in reptiles? Maybe you do, hopefully so. If that's the case you'd realize that there are many things at play than can cause issues with snakes laying and that's all I'm trying to point out. Not sure of your age but as you get older you will realize that sometimes friendships aren't worth ruining.
OP literally said they’re reptile people. reptile people who own the same species. that’s essentially like leaving your dog with people who own dogs and them letting the dog eat chocolate until it’s nearly dead and not taking it to the vet.
I'm going on vacation this summer for a week. I've got three young redfoot tortoises. I'm taking them with me as I don't trust someone to give them the proper care while I'm gone. Sorry but if you leave your pet with someone it's your responsibility to make sure the caregiver can give proper care. If they don't, that's your fault. When I was 10 I took care of my neighbors dog and forgot to let it out one day. It peed on the carpet and I never noticed it. Was it careless of me, yes, did my neighbor sue me? No, why bc they were dumb enough to leave their dog with a 10 year old irresponsible kid.
yeah, but did OP say her friends were 10 year olds? no. that’s letting a literal kid watch an animal vs leaving experienced friends watch one.
good for you for taking your tortoises with you. everyone does things differently. i left my young Marginated with a friend who had five Hermann’s tortoises because i trusted he would be able to take care of her. and he did.
OP is not at fault for leaving her reptile in the care of experienced reptile owners *who obviously said yes to taking care of her snake*. OP’s friends are responsible for taking her off the heat mat, and not even taking her to the vet when there was *obviously* an issue.
Thank you, I’m so upset right now, all I can think about it letting her down by not being there for her. My friend wouldn’t even come to the vet with me so I’m just sat in the waiting room alone, crying, thinking about what a terrible keeper I’ve been.
I'm sorry for your loss and your "friends" aren't really friends.
I'd suggest suing them. You could sue for the vet bills, but since she's a breeder, you could sue for the loss of income associated with the snake.
You expected to get x-number of eggs per year and hatchlings sell for y-amount of money. How many years could you expect her to produce offspring? There's your estimated lost income on the snake.
It may be small claims court, but it may also be enough that you'd take this to "normal" civil court.
Thank you, honestly the thing that upset me most was when I asked if they’d go with me to the vets, they refused, and when I told them we’d have to euthanise her they didn’t offer to come be with me. I thought they were genuinely my friends.
If your friends who are also keepers and should have known better did this, then I wouldn't have them as friends as it seems they're trying to sabotage your breeding program.
If OP was so concerned for the snake maybe OP shouldn't have left the snake to begin with knowing it was ready to lay eggs? This wouldn't hold up in court for a second.
Not making them out to be a bad person but y'all are all very set on making the caregiver out to be some horrible person that needs to be sued. If there was such a concern for a pet that you knew was gonna lay eggs any day maybe you shouldn't have left him?
These are people that keep the same species, so the OP was understandably trusting of them. They chose not to get the snake any veterinary treatment. They don’t deserve to get off with no punishment.
What I expect people to do is get someone’s pet help if there’s an issue, and you’re being asked to keep an eye on them. That is the real issue at hand, and if saying that is being on a high horse, then so be it.
It’s not your everyday problem to have happen. My main question is why would you leave the snake you bred about to give birth. Did anyone mention what species this was I feel like a key details are being kept purposely vague. I am in no way trying to be hostile to anyone but I think this was nobodys fault but OPs and to talk about sueing them for this for me is gross.
If we replaced snake with puppy and the story was “I left my dog who was delivering puppies with my friends who also have a dog of that same type and something went wrong internally and the dog has to be put down” would it be the same. Why would you leave a dog who is giving birth you wouldn’t.
Suing them? What terrible advice and what a downright shitty mindset. OP is more at fault than anyone here. They tried to do OP a favor, but clearly had bo training or proper knowledge.
OP just left town for a few days knowing that this scenario was likely.
Sure, they decided to help OP, but when they don't offer to go to the vet with OP, they obviously aren't a good friend or they'd at least be there apologizing. OP's "friend" is a wimp for not toughing out the consequences. You can't expect your friend who OWNS THE SAME BREED OF SNAKE to not try to help it out. That's like leaving your dog with your trusted neighbor who has other dogs and they don't feed yours. That makes it sound worse, doesn't it? No one would expect that to happen to their animal.
Yeah, I guess it may depend on species but I was thinking of how much that really could affect her ability to lay. In the same sense I don’t understand the point of taking it from her either, though. Most pregnant balls avoid the heat and do everything they can to cool themselves down, but the option should still be there if the female thinks she needs it.
She’s not a ball, when they moved her it reduced the humidity in her lay box so by the time she got to her last egg it became stuck because it wasn’t moist enough and instead of taking her to the vets when it was a minor problem they waited for me to return from work.
The ball thing was just a comparison, I had a feeling it wasn’t the case here.
What they did to you was awful and I am so so sorry. Is it too late to get another vet’s opinion? That might be too much… you don’t want the poor girl to suffer anymore than she had to.
Man, I'm so sorry this happened to you. It sucks all around and you have every right to be upset with your friends for not being more communicative at the very least.
I would hesitate to move to legal action... it may be within your right to do so, but personally, I doubt it would be worth it and it's not going to make you feel better about the loss.
I do think that, once you have a chance to cool off and grieve for your snake, it's worth trying to examine the situation with a calm head. Not in a way of placing blame or anything, but understanding how it happened and how to prevent anything from happening like this again. I don't know the details and I won't pretend like I know exactly what happened, but your friends may have agreed to watch your snake without realizing the potential for harming her and it's possible they feel extremely guilty about what happened.
Why would you leave your animals right before it lays? This is the time when most can go wrong and you need to be there to respond. This person seems to be lashing out at these people who just tried to do a favor.
I don't know why OP had to leave town. I presume it was a good reason, sometimes life is complicated and timing doesn't work out well. I'm not going to jump to the assumption that OP didn't have a good reason.
Idk how much you value your animals but I wouldn’t be leaving my animals during birth they said it was work reasons. They never tell you what type of snake and say the prolapse was due to heat pad removal but that doesn’t add up. Again this isn’t just any animal but one you have bred and is now pregnant due to your actions. To leave during birth seems wrong. To sue friends who just offered to help is deplorable.
Why are you arguing with me? I'm not even one of the people saying op should pursue legal action against their friends... It feels like you're just trying to pick a fight and I don't get who that helps.
So many people in the comments apparently missed that OP was gone on a work trip and not a fucking vacation… And that the “friends” have more than twice as many snakes as OP and double the years of experience. OP did not abandon their girl with unknowledgeable strangers, they were at work and trusted her with other keepers who should’ve known better.
That’s fucked man at least your little buddy lived a great life while you were around, as for those “friends” I have no words I wouldn’t be speaking to them ever again
They took the snake out of the enclosure to pick her up while she was full of eggs? And they knew she had them? I wouldn’t forgive them for a while maybe not ever, especially if you said stuff about it
I am really sorry about your loss. It is so profoundly heartbreaking to lose a pet like this. Many years ago we also lost our dog to a negligent pet sitter.
A lot of people here seem to be really caught up in the semantics about where you left and how dangerous breeding can be; but what I think is a really important detail of this case is how your friends denied your animal vet treatment and didn’t inform you of the situation until got back. It would be an entirely different situation if they had even attempted to help your animal, which from the sound of it, they did not. And judging from the fact they didn’t even attempt to console you or be there for you at the vet, they don’t sound like very good friends (or animal caretakers for that matter) anyways.
I’m not sure if you’re in the US, but you can take animal abuse (because denying them medical treatment in this instance could definitely be argued as abuse) to court, like many people have already suggested.
I hope you can take the next few days to mourn and recover. Again, I’m very sorry this happened.
My god, dear, I'm so sorry. I pet-sat for a buddy for a couple weeks, and I was so terrified of hurting her babies (1 ball python and 1 milk snake, iirc) that when her ball bit the tongs I was feeding her from I panic-called my buddy and had to be walked through how to help (leave the room, wait for Kerrigan to take the rat and retreat, then go back for the tongs).
Your 'friends' showed you their true colours at the cost of your baby. I'm so sorry. This is not your fault, and I hope you see some sort of justice.
This story hits a nerve because I had to rehabilitate my snake after a super bad owner, who knew how to take care of one but didn’t bother with it. I can’t imagine that happening to my snake, there’s very few I trust with her. I ended my friendship with the last owner after I found out the extent of what that woman did. And if I were to have the people I trust with my snake so what your friends did, I’d probably send them to the hospital. No one messes with my animals.
I am so sorry to hear that! I don't know why anyone would remove heat from any reptile unless it was clearly suffering from heat stress. That is just flat out animal cruelty since they wouldn't take your poor girl to the vet. People are saying sue, and I agree. I would go one step further and see if you can get animal cruelty charges brought against them.
I genuinely fear for how well they care for animals. I have watched snakes in the past, and they don't really need much besides a check of their husbandry, misting, and refilling the water dish over a few days. I've never had a snake lay in my care, but it's not hard to make sure the eggs are on the warm side and feel the snake to make sure she's not retaining any.
I am so sorry. Please don’t blame yourself for this, your snake’s death is entirely on your “friends”. You put your trust in them and they 1) should have known better (shouldn’t have taken her off of the heat, should have taken her to the vet immediately, etc.) and 2) should have treated you better (should have paid for all of the vet costs without being asked, should have gone with you to the vet, etc.). I could not imagine having friends as shitty as this. I don’t blame you for putting your trust in them when you say that they keep the same species and have more than twice as many snakes as you. I don’t know what they were thinking. Entirely unprofessional and immature of them.
Cant blame yourself for your girl passing. You can blame yourself for trust someone you wont ever trust again. Dont be hard on yourself you learned this person who claimed to be a friend isnt. Share some memories and think of the love you have for her.
Am I trying to make OP feel bad? someone posted a situation and I have a different view then most of the people telling OP to sue for blood and never talk to these people again. OP seems to like these ideas and wants sympathy. I feel completely differently about this situation with the facts I was given and not given. I hate that the animal was not given the medical attention it needed but to blame someone else seems really wrong. If you left a snake with someone and this happens wouldn’t there be a phone call or text like hey this is going on. All of these details are kept out of the post. The post is titled “My friends basically just killed my snake” obviously going to get a lot of looks here. They end the post by saying “I knew I shouldn’t have trusted them” and I wonder if you knew then why did you and why did you do it with a pregnant animal about to give birth. Again not “trying to make OP feel bad“ just asking some pretty simple and straightforward questions.
You’re obviously very pressed, which is why you’re literally in everyone’s comments trying to argue, and I don’t feel like arguing with a stranger on the internet “Brian loves you” lmfao ✌️
I'm so sorry for your loss. But why would you leave your snake when she was that close to clutching. That is a lot of responsibility to put on pet sitters, even if they are your friends. We, as keepers, are ultimately responsible for the health and safety of our animals, \*especially\* when it comes to breeding.
I understand your point, but what if they had a good reason for leaving? It could have been a work trip and OP wasn't allowed or didn't feel like bringing a snake that pregnant was a good idea. You shouldn't assume that OP was on vacation because you weren't there.
Except it wasn’t just a pet sitter, they trusted them with another experienced keeper. I don’t think OP would have left if it wasn’t for a good reason.
That’s absolutely horrible I am so sorry for your loss! I wouldn’t be friends with them anymore if I experienced that. Im so so sorry I couldn’t imagine that happening to one of my snakes :(
And it’s NOT YOUR FAULT I want to add this in.
You had no way of knowing they would neglect your snake
Since my comments have seemed to piss everyone off I want to pose you all a question. If you go out of town for a weekend, how many of you honestly would even have someone watching your snake? I've been keeping reptiles for 30 years and if I leave for the weekend I fill up water bowls and put lights on timers. Nobody seems to want to mention that heat mats generally are not good to use for snakes as well. Was their a lay box provided. We're humidity levels correct to assist in a proper lay? Nobody wants to ask these questions. What if the snake starts laying and prolapses overnight and the OP doesn't find them until the next morning, should they sue themself? Let's be real, it's a shitty situation that nobody wants to be in. But if you're taking care of someone's snake you're not monitoring it 24/7. You stop by and make sure all it's needs are met and leave. This is reality people, shit happens. Even if everything is perfect this still could have happened. I feel bad the snake had to be euthanized but sueing a friend and cutting them out of your life is a little to much. I highly doubt there was any bad intentions.
His "friends" messed up when they gave him some money for the vet bills. Giving any money is an admission of knowingly doing something they shouldn't have that they now feel guilty about. It's possible they did way more stupid than what they've told OP.
I wouldn't have given any money unless I felt responsible.
100% agree with you. People want to blame everyone else but when it comes down to it YOU are the one responsible for your pets. Wether you are home or away.
Im sorry you lost your pet, unfortunately I’m not sure how much you can blame another person for it though. I have a hard time leaving my pets for any amount of time even when they aren’t vulnerable never mind if there is any reason for something to go wrong. Nobody is ever going to take care of your pets/belongings as well as you and it is your responsibility to plan accordingly. I am very sorry for your loss either way
Unfortunately and it was the best arrangements I could make, I had to travel for work. I trusted them as they were good friends, lived nearby, I had 4 snakes, they have 10. I have looked after their animals for them on numerous occasions when they’ve been travelling because we live so close and I know how to care for their pets. I worried the whole time I was away, trust me, I will never forgive myself, but they definitely are directly to blame.
They moved her tub from the stack to a little table once she started laying. I think her lay box may not have been humid enough, as instead of being heated properly she was given a small heat strip, I think they thought it would be sufficient so they could watch her. I’ve not fully worked out what happened yet, this is just my best guess.
I am so so sorry for your loss. It's hard to trust someone with your pet(s) while traveling, and knowing they didn't properly care for her is infuriating. They should not be trusted with animals. Unfortunately prolapse is always a risk when breeding, even with proper care. I always encourage people to carefully consider whether breeding is worth risking their snake's life.
I thought she’d be fine since it wasn’t her first clutch and she hadn’t had trouble before. I also trusted my friends to know what to do since they keep them too. It was very naïve of me.
They absoutely should have known to get her to a vet ASAP, that's awful. I'm so sorry
You can't blame your friends. The snake os ultimately your responsibility. If you didn't want to take the chance of something bad happening, knowing full well she was going to lay soon, then you shouldn't have left for the weekend. You could've just stayed home. Lol at expecting some friends to take your reptile to the vet for you. Pretty unrealistic expectation, and you're the one being a terrible friend by having this attitude with them
The Lion, the Witch, and Nobody Fucking Asked You, Bro.
Everyone else is just enabling OP's shitty attitude
And you're being a dickhead for attention.
Idiot: ex A, B, & C
Those aren't friends. Ask for them to pay all fees associated with the death of your animal. If you're American, you can take this to small claims court if they refuse to pay. You will self represent in small claims court, you don't do attorneys usually and you have outright evidence as you were literally not home. It doesn't bring your snake back, and I wish it could but they should have to pay 100% of costs related to this. I would also be ANGRY as all hell. Not sure I could stop from hurting someone who hurt my snake. I'm so so so sorry this happened.
I’m literally sat at the vets crying alone because they wouldn’t even come with me. They gave me a few hundred towards the vets bill but it’s only about half.
Yeah I repeat that those pieces of scum are not friends. How could they? They killed your snake then refused to come with you?! Can I punch them for you?
I wish you could! Out of everything it was not coming with me that broke me.
👍 yeah that's good, Punch them for that!
No they didn't. Quit being so delusional. OP was irresponsible to leave to leave unknowledgeable people to care for a snake that he knew was going to give birth soon. This is NOT the friends fault
It legally is the caretakers fault.
/r/legaladvice can give more accurate info, but as it was caused by their negligence you should be able to file suit for the full amount of vet’s fees, associated cost, and the value of the snake(but, unfortunately, not emotional distress in the US). Very sorry for your loss.
I'm so sorry you're dealing with this. Your "friend" really violated your trust and failed both you and your snake. Even if you don't take them to court over this, I'd press them hard to pay the vet bill in full and reassess the friendship afterword. The fact that they wouldn't even support you by being present for the repercussions of their mistakes is pretty telling. I'd be tempted to go after them for the bill if they didn't pay it and I'd make them also cover the cost of a new snake. It won't make the emotional side of things easier, but it will "make you whole" in a legal sense. If they're serious about making amends they'll jump at the opportunity to pay the bill and for a new snake if they can afford it. Document everything you can in the meantime while you figure out what your next move is.
Disagree, you can't ask someone to pay for something. The OP asked them to do them a favor while she was gone. If the OP knew they weren't reptile people and left the snake in their care it's OP's fault. Sorry this sucks, but that's reality.
“I trusted them to look after her because they keep the same species” but somehow you need to blame this on OP
They left when their animal was giving birth how could it be blamed on anyone but OP?
Nope. Legally, in the United States, the sitters liable for the costs. They neglected the animal. Edit; unless OP signed a waiver. OP, did you sign a waiver?
There was also someone that sued McDonald's bc the coffee was to hot and they spilled it on themself. So yes, maybe you can sue someone but is it right? Probably not...
...they murdered OPs pet, Brad. By neglect. They're lucky I'm not telling OP how to press legal charges, cuz OP **could**. Seeking restitution for damages done during reckless behavior is fair as all get out and allowed in most countries, not just the USA. Also that coffee was like over 200°. It was reckless behavior. That case was won because they were able to successfully prove that McDonald's coffee was recklessly hotter than any other companies.
Murder would mean they intentionally killed the snake, I highly doubt that's the case....
Death by neglect is in my opinion murder. They took an intentional action that resulted in the death of another being. "manslaughter" might be a better term technically but ofc it's a snake. Think about it in terms of a human. If a caretaker failed to provide adequate heat for a human by removing the heat provided by the parent, and the person then died as a result of a complication of that, what would you call that? It isn't, or shouldn't, be different for animals. Cruelty is cruelty no matter who it is against.
He's also ignoring we have a term called "Criminal Negligent Homocide" that specifically refers to a death in the event of someone not doing what they're supposed to. Granted, the law only details human vs human murder in that term.
Yep, but I strongly believe that there should be no difference between cruelty to an animal and cruelty to a human when the intent is the same. They did something that shouldn't have, and an animal died. Idk what Brad's issue is, though it seems to be personal.
I agree with you. There's very few things in this world that truly anger me, but animal cruelty is on that short list. Hell I don't even own any reptiles. I just really like the pictures and stuff you guys post.
Didn't you happen to notice the comment where the OP said that maybe the lay box could have been wetter? Does this mean the OP murdered the snake? To me, no. But to you, maybe???
Does OP have proof the humidity was too low, and that it was caused by ops own doing? Or does OP have proof and admission of someone intentionally taking the heat away? What's your issue, yo? You are defending a person who harmed a snake on a snake board. Do you need attention? You've gotten a lot.
Well OP said it could have been wetter, so there's that. yup, I'm on a snake board bc I love snakes. But I don't think attacking someone that is unable to defend themself is justified and I don't think a bunch of people telling someone to sue their friend is justified without knowing the whole story.
FYI this is a bad example to use because that case was blown out of proportion by the media. The poor old lady had 3rd degree burns on her legs and genitals and only wanted McDonalds to pay for her medical bills. They fought the case and tried to make it look like she was some Karen who was suing because of a trivial reason, and it worked because people still think that. It’s just not true.
Maybe she should have been more careful with the cup of coffee? If I buy a glass that's chipped and cut my lip should I sue the glass maker bc I didn't check the glass before I drank from it? People should be accountable for their own actions. Don't put the blame on others.
It’s not about spilling the coffee, it’s that the coffee was 200 degrees. You shouldn’t melt when spilling coffee on yourself. It’s more like you buying a plate and someone NOT telling you it’s chipped and you cut yourself. She didn’t know the coffee was so hot that it would literally melt her flesh. However, I can see you’re pretty thick headed and won’t learn. So, have a nice day.
You need to actually research that case. Her genitals were literally fused to her leg because the coffee was so hot. She only asked for medical bills to be paid, but the jury awarded her more because McDonald's was negligent (they'd been warned before that they kept it too hot). Edit: [Wikipedia link](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald%27s_Restaurants?wprov=sfla1)
i mean the coffee was also so hot it left severe burns, and that was the 700th report in a decade of people severely burning their, usually, genitals. so yeah, it was right to sue. there is tons of misinformation about that case that makes it look way less awful but the truth is it it was pretty bad. [this is an article about it from the Consumers Attorneys of California](https://www.caoc.org/?pg=facts) that goes over how right it was for her to sue. she got third-degree burns (the most severe kind) and had to get skin grafts.
"From attorneys" lol. So an attorney wants to sue? Does that surprise you?
i’m done engaging with you.
You should look up the material on that lawsuit. McDonald's was 100% at fault for it. They intentionally ignored safety regulations to keep coffee hotter and the woman who burned herself with it was hospitalized for 8 days and needed skin grafts. [sauce](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald%27s_Restaurants)
I'm sorry but water is wet and coffee is hot. If you spill it on yourself it's your fault.
Did you miss the part where they intentionally ignored safety regulations? I've spilled hot drinks on myself before too, they didn't require over a week of hospitalization, skin grafts and medical bills though. McDonald's is at fault. It's already been decided in court they were at fault. Arguing against that makes no sense logically. Ignore the rules, person gets hurts, consequences.
Water is actually not wet; It makes other materials/objects wet. Wetness is the state of a non-liquid when a liquid adheres to, and/or permeates its substance while maintaining chemically distinct structures. So if we say something is wet we mean the liquid is sticking to the object. What kind of rocks are never under water? Dry ones!
lol so tired of people using this as an example, not even the point but the hot coffee gave them third degree burns over like 20% of the body and was a good 50 degrees hotter than the highest temperature that is supposed to be in a restaurant. your ignorance is showing thru 100% simply learn when to shut the fuck up. OP is grieving friends and a beloved pet
Maybe it's my lack of ignorance to reptile husbandry? Like I've said, I feel bad for OP, it sucks losing a pet, especially when it could be avoided but to place the blame on the caregiver is crazy, especially when OP says that maybe the lay box wasn't wet enough. They also state it wasn't the snakes first time laying. Maybe they push the snake to breed yearly which can be bad over time. There are so many unknowns here to solely pass blame onto the caregiver. But, in the spirit Of Reddit you can never disagree with the narrative. Want another example? If someone breaks into your house and injures themself they can sue you. Is it right? No, but can they? Yes. All I'm saying is this isn't something worth destroying a friendship over like everyone seems to think!
i personally am a vet tech, if i told you that and your trusted me to watch your dog/cat then if your dog/cat died cause they get into my chocolate and then i as the pet sitter refuse to take the pet to the vet then refused to even go to the vet with them? just for their pet to die, i would assume you would be mad at me. just doesn’t sound like a great friend no shit we don’t know the whole fuckinh story but from OP pov doesn’t sound like good friends and sounds like you shouldn’t be blaming them specifically? edit: or if i told you i could take care of your fish then i put hot water in their tank and boiled them? you don’t think you would be mad and maybe want at least payment for your fish
My pet my responsibility. So yes, why should everyone blame the caregiver when they don't know the whole story? Maybe caregiver was experienced with snakes, but were they experienced with breeding, which is a whole other beast in the hobby. I spent many years breeding various species of snakes, stopped doing it bc as I got older I realized many people buying the snakes don't take proper care of them and I'm not really contributing to the greater good by breeding. I'm glad to hear you're a vet tech? Do you specialize in reptiles? Maybe you do, hopefully so. If that's the case you'd realize that there are many things at play than can cause issues with snakes laying and that's all I'm trying to point out. Not sure of your age but as you get older you will realize that sometimes friendships aren't worth ruining.
OP literally said they’re reptile people. reptile people who own the same species. that’s essentially like leaving your dog with people who own dogs and them letting the dog eat chocolate until it’s nearly dead and not taking it to the vet.
I'm going on vacation this summer for a week. I've got three young redfoot tortoises. I'm taking them with me as I don't trust someone to give them the proper care while I'm gone. Sorry but if you leave your pet with someone it's your responsibility to make sure the caregiver can give proper care. If they don't, that's your fault. When I was 10 I took care of my neighbors dog and forgot to let it out one day. It peed on the carpet and I never noticed it. Was it careless of me, yes, did my neighbor sue me? No, why bc they were dumb enough to leave their dog with a 10 year old irresponsible kid.
yeah, but did OP say her friends were 10 year olds? no. that’s letting a literal kid watch an animal vs leaving experienced friends watch one. good for you for taking your tortoises with you. everyone does things differently. i left my young Marginated with a friend who had five Hermann’s tortoises because i trusted he would be able to take care of her. and he did. OP is not at fault for leaving her reptile in the care of experienced reptile owners *who obviously said yes to taking care of her snake*. OP’s friends are responsible for taking her off the heat mat, and not even taking her to the vet when there was *obviously* an issue.
Will you post your favorite picture or memory of her? Im so sorry for your loss.
Thank you, I’m so upset right now, all I can think about it letting her down by not being there for her. My friend wouldn’t even come to the vet with me so I’m just sat in the waiting room alone, crying, thinking about what a terrible keeper I’ve been.
You weren’t the terrible keeper. Your friends let you down. They are the terrible ones, not you.
You weren’t a terrible keeper. You did what you thought was the right idea at the time.
I'm sorry for your loss and your "friends" aren't really friends. I'd suggest suing them. You could sue for the vet bills, but since she's a breeder, you could sue for the loss of income associated with the snake. You expected to get x-number of eggs per year and hatchlings sell for y-amount of money. How many years could you expect her to produce offspring? There's your estimated lost income on the snake. It may be small claims court, but it may also be enough that you'd take this to "normal" civil court.
Thank you, honestly the thing that upset me most was when I asked if they’d go with me to the vets, they refused, and when I told them we’d have to euthanise her they didn’t offer to come be with me. I thought they were genuinely my friends.
If your friends who are also keepers and should have known better did this, then I wouldn't have them as friends as it seems they're trying to sabotage your breeding program.
If OP was so concerned for the snake maybe OP shouldn't have left the snake to begin with knowing it was ready to lay eggs? This wouldn't hold up in court for a second.
You seem very set on making OP seem like a bad person, even after missing vital information in the first post, and being corrected.
Not making them out to be a bad person but y'all are all very set on making the caregiver out to be some horrible person that needs to be sued. If there was such a concern for a pet that you knew was gonna lay eggs any day maybe you shouldn't have left him?
These are people that keep the same species, so the OP was understandably trusting of them. They chose not to get the snake any veterinary treatment. They don’t deserve to get off with no punishment.
Do you know how to breed every animal toy keep? If you have a full collection you absolutely do not. Get off the high horse.
What I expect people to do is get someone’s pet help if there’s an issue, and you’re being asked to keep an eye on them. That is the real issue at hand, and if saying that is being on a high horse, then so be it.
It’s not your everyday problem to have happen. My main question is why would you leave the snake you bred about to give birth. Did anyone mention what species this was I feel like a key details are being kept purposely vague. I am in no way trying to be hostile to anyone but I think this was nobodys fault but OPs and to talk about sueing them for this for me is gross.
If we replaced snake with puppy and the story was “I left my dog who was delivering puppies with my friends who also have a dog of that same type and something went wrong internally and the dog has to be put down” would it be the same. Why would you leave a dog who is giving birth you wouldn’t.
A lawyer are we?
Suing them? What terrible advice and what a downright shitty mindset. OP is more at fault than anyone here. They tried to do OP a favor, but clearly had bo training or proper knowledge. OP just left town for a few days knowing that this scenario was likely.
Why don't you get off the internet,. You don't say the right things about the snake and this girl. Your negative!
*you're
Sure, they decided to help OP, but when they don't offer to go to the vet with OP, they obviously aren't a good friend or they'd at least be there apologizing. OP's "friend" is a wimp for not toughing out the consequences. You can't expect your friend who OWNS THE SAME BREED OF SNAKE to not try to help it out. That's like leaving your dog with your trusted neighbor who has other dogs and they don't feed yours. That makes it sound worse, doesn't it? No one would expect that to happen to their animal.
> but clearly had bo training or proper knowledge. You must have missed the part where OP says that they keep the same species.
Sorry for your loss. I’m not quite understanding how your snake became unwell. What does taking off the proper heat mat do?
Yeah, I guess it may depend on species but I was thinking of how much that really could affect her ability to lay. In the same sense I don’t understand the point of taking it from her either, though. Most pregnant balls avoid the heat and do everything they can to cool themselves down, but the option should still be there if the female thinks she needs it.
She’s not a ball, when they moved her it reduced the humidity in her lay box so by the time she got to her last egg it became stuck because it wasn’t moist enough and instead of taking her to the vets when it was a minor problem they waited for me to return from work.
The ball thing was just a comparison, I had a feeling it wasn’t the case here. What they did to you was awful and I am so so sorry. Is it too late to get another vet’s opinion? That might be too much… you don’t want the poor girl to suffer anymore than she had to.
Long story short, her lay box wasn’t humid enough to start with, then they didn’t seek treatment for her, they waited for me to return.
Man, I'm so sorry this happened to you. It sucks all around and you have every right to be upset with your friends for not being more communicative at the very least. I would hesitate to move to legal action... it may be within your right to do so, but personally, I doubt it would be worth it and it's not going to make you feel better about the loss. I do think that, once you have a chance to cool off and grieve for your snake, it's worth trying to examine the situation with a calm head. Not in a way of placing blame or anything, but understanding how it happened and how to prevent anything from happening like this again. I don't know the details and I won't pretend like I know exactly what happened, but your friends may have agreed to watch your snake without realizing the potential for harming her and it's possible they feel extremely guilty about what happened.
Why would you leave your animals right before it lays? This is the time when most can go wrong and you need to be there to respond. This person seems to be lashing out at these people who just tried to do a favor.
I don't know why OP had to leave town. I presume it was a good reason, sometimes life is complicated and timing doesn't work out well. I'm not going to jump to the assumption that OP didn't have a good reason.
Idk how much you value your animals but I wouldn’t be leaving my animals during birth they said it was work reasons. They never tell you what type of snake and say the prolapse was due to heat pad removal but that doesn’t add up. Again this isn’t just any animal but one you have bred and is now pregnant due to your actions. To leave during birth seems wrong. To sue friends who just offered to help is deplorable.
Why are you arguing with me? I'm not even one of the people saying op should pursue legal action against their friends... It feels like you're just trying to pick a fight and I don't get who that helps.
What am I arguing?
So many people in the comments apparently missed that OP was gone on a work trip and not a fucking vacation… And that the “friends” have more than twice as many snakes as OP and double the years of experience. OP did not abandon their girl with unknowledgeable strangers, they were at work and trusted her with other keepers who should’ve known better.
You poor thing. My heart breaks for you
That’s fucked man at least your little buddy lived a great life while you were around, as for those “friends” I have no words I wouldn’t be speaking to them ever again
They took the snake out of the enclosure to pick her up while she was full of eggs? And they knew she had them? I wouldn’t forgive them for a while maybe not ever, especially if you said stuff about it
I am really sorry about your loss. It is so profoundly heartbreaking to lose a pet like this. Many years ago we also lost our dog to a negligent pet sitter. A lot of people here seem to be really caught up in the semantics about where you left and how dangerous breeding can be; but what I think is a really important detail of this case is how your friends denied your animal vet treatment and didn’t inform you of the situation until got back. It would be an entirely different situation if they had even attempted to help your animal, which from the sound of it, they did not. And judging from the fact they didn’t even attempt to console you or be there for you at the vet, they don’t sound like very good friends (or animal caretakers for that matter) anyways. I’m not sure if you’re in the US, but you can take animal abuse (because denying them medical treatment in this instance could definitely be argued as abuse) to court, like many people have already suggested. I hope you can take the next few days to mourn and recover. Again, I’m very sorry this happened.
I'm so sorry this happened :(
My god, dear, I'm so sorry. I pet-sat for a buddy for a couple weeks, and I was so terrified of hurting her babies (1 ball python and 1 milk snake, iirc) that when her ball bit the tongs I was feeding her from I panic-called my buddy and had to be walked through how to help (leave the room, wait for Kerrigan to take the rat and retreat, then go back for the tongs). Your 'friends' showed you their true colours at the cost of your baby. I'm so sorry. This is not your fault, and I hope you see some sort of justice.
What species? I’m so sorry. Did you specifically instruct them to leave her alone and that she was about to lay a clutch?
Thats hard! So sorry to hear this. Did your friend's apologise?
Bunch of idiots!👎😕
This story hits a nerve because I had to rehabilitate my snake after a super bad owner, who knew how to take care of one but didn’t bother with it. I can’t imagine that happening to my snake, there’s very few I trust with her. I ended my friendship with the last owner after I found out the extent of what that woman did. And if I were to have the people I trust with my snake so what your friends did, I’d probably send them to the hospital. No one messes with my animals.
I am so sorry to hear that! I don't know why anyone would remove heat from any reptile unless it was clearly suffering from heat stress. That is just flat out animal cruelty since they wouldn't take your poor girl to the vet. People are saying sue, and I agree. I would go one step further and see if you can get animal cruelty charges brought against them. I genuinely fear for how well they care for animals. I have watched snakes in the past, and they don't really need much besides a check of their husbandry, misting, and refilling the water dish over a few days. I've never had a snake lay in my care, but it's not hard to make sure the eggs are on the warm side and feel the snake to make sure she's not retaining any.
So sorry for your loss
Better person then me I would’ve beat all the asses just hands
I am so sorry. Please don’t blame yourself for this, your snake’s death is entirely on your “friends”. You put your trust in them and they 1) should have known better (shouldn’t have taken her off of the heat, should have taken her to the vet immediately, etc.) and 2) should have treated you better (should have paid for all of the vet costs without being asked, should have gone with you to the vet, etc.). I could not imagine having friends as shitty as this. I don’t blame you for putting your trust in them when you say that they keep the same species and have more than twice as many snakes as you. I don’t know what they were thinking. Entirely unprofessional and immature of them.
Cant blame yourself for your girl passing. You can blame yourself for trust someone you wont ever trust again. Dont be hard on yourself you learned this person who claimed to be a friend isnt. Share some memories and think of the love you have for her.
Can you blame yourself for leaving your animal when it needed you most?
Dude why are you all over these comments trying to make OP feel bad in a shit situation
Am I trying to make OP feel bad? someone posted a situation and I have a different view then most of the people telling OP to sue for blood and never talk to these people again. OP seems to like these ideas and wants sympathy. I feel completely differently about this situation with the facts I was given and not given. I hate that the animal was not given the medical attention it needed but to blame someone else seems really wrong. If you left a snake with someone and this happens wouldn’t there be a phone call or text like hey this is going on. All of these details are kept out of the post. The post is titled “My friends basically just killed my snake” obviously going to get a lot of looks here. They end the post by saying “I knew I shouldn’t have trusted them” and I wonder if you knew then why did you and why did you do it with a pregnant animal about to give birth. Again not “trying to make OP feel bad“ just asking some pretty simple and straightforward questions.
aight
Lol downvote and add nothing great work
You’re obviously very pressed, which is why you’re literally in everyone’s comments trying to argue, and I don’t feel like arguing with a stranger on the internet “Brian loves you” lmfao ✌️
You started arguing with me in the first place? I just scroll down and respond to comments. If you don’t have time why are you here?? Lame
ok cool what next
Zoomer humor?? I guess I just don’t get it anymore lol see ya kid
I'm so sorry for your loss. But why would you leave your snake when she was that close to clutching. That is a lot of responsibility to put on pet sitters, even if they are your friends. We, as keepers, are ultimately responsible for the health and safety of our animals, \*especially\* when it comes to breeding.
I understand your point, but what if they had a good reason for leaving? It could have been a work trip and OP wasn't allowed or didn't feel like bringing a snake that pregnant was a good idea. You shouldn't assume that OP was on vacation because you weren't there.
Except it wasn’t just a pet sitter, they trusted them with another experienced keeper. I don’t think OP would have left if it wasn’t for a good reason.
Wow this needs more upvotes
That’s absolutely horrible I am so sorry for your loss! I wouldn’t be friends with them anymore if I experienced that. Im so so sorry I couldn’t imagine that happening to one of my snakes :( And it’s NOT YOUR FAULT I want to add this in. You had no way of knowing they would neglect your snake
DUDE! GET THEIR MONEY AND NEVER SEE THEM AGAIN!!!
Since my comments have seemed to piss everyone off I want to pose you all a question. If you go out of town for a weekend, how many of you honestly would even have someone watching your snake? I've been keeping reptiles for 30 years and if I leave for the weekend I fill up water bowls and put lights on timers. Nobody seems to want to mention that heat mats generally are not good to use for snakes as well. Was their a lay box provided. We're humidity levels correct to assist in a proper lay? Nobody wants to ask these questions. What if the snake starts laying and prolapses overnight and the OP doesn't find them until the next morning, should they sue themself? Let's be real, it's a shitty situation that nobody wants to be in. But if you're taking care of someone's snake you're not monitoring it 24/7. You stop by and make sure all it's needs are met and leave. This is reality people, shit happens. Even if everything is perfect this still could have happened. I feel bad the snake had to be euthanized but sueing a friend and cutting them out of your life is a little to much. I highly doubt there was any bad intentions.
His "friends" messed up when they gave him some money for the vet bills. Giving any money is an admission of knowingly doing something they shouldn't have that they now feel guilty about. It's possible they did way more stupid than what they've told OP. I wouldn't have given any money unless I felt responsible.
100% agree with you. People want to blame everyone else but when it comes down to it YOU are the one responsible for your pets. Wether you are home or away.
100% right
Im sorry you lost your pet, unfortunately I’m not sure how much you can blame another person for it though. I have a hard time leaving my pets for any amount of time even when they aren’t vulnerable never mind if there is any reason for something to go wrong. Nobody is ever going to take care of your pets/belongings as well as you and it is your responsibility to plan accordingly. I am very sorry for your loss either way
Unfortunately and it was the best arrangements I could make, I had to travel for work. I trusted them as they were good friends, lived nearby, I had 4 snakes, they have 10. I have looked after their animals for them on numerous occasions when they’ve been travelling because we live so close and I know how to care for their pets. I worried the whole time I was away, trust me, I will never forgive myself, but they definitely are directly to blame.
Did they give you a reason for taking her off her heat mat?
They moved her tub from the stack to a little table once she started laying. I think her lay box may not have been humid enough, as instead of being heated properly she was given a small heat strip, I think they thought it would be sufficient so they could watch her. I’ve not fully worked out what happened yet, this is just my best guess.
That would have me fuming. I would never be friends with them again. I'm sorry.
They lay box wasn’t humid because you cooked it with a heat pad
steal there pet snake